WEBVTT - The Class that made 200 Child Nazis 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:07.640 M M. Yeah, that was terrible. Now, yeah, Sylvie, how 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:11.479 do I how do I podcast? Uh? Hi, I'm Robert Evans. 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.680 Then you're listening Behind the Bastard, the Boston podcast about 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.799 the work people from history and today. Uh, that doesn't 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.520 sound like something i'd say, my guess. But also host 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:29.639 slash coup slash Garrison. Hi, it's me again on the podcast. 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.920 It's another coup episode. Garrison's helping me out because I 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.680 have once again taken on enough projects that I'm I'm 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:43.480 terrified about my life. Um so yeah, we're we're doing 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.960 another coup episode in honor of Trump's coup. In honor 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.720 of Trump's coup. That's exactly what's amazing. Ago We keep 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.920 recording these, and coups are still relevant each time we record. O. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.000 Cous are always relevant because never didn't you say Trump's 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.960 is not technically a cup because no military? Yeah, I 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.120 mean so far, yes, but I do think we're splitting 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.200 hairs a little bit. But either way, I love a 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.920 good coup. Um, so we're gonna have us. We're gonna 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:13.560 have us another pod coups podcast, Coup Cast and Robert, 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.200 how do you feel about Nazis? Uh lukewarm. How do 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.240 you feel about child Nazis? Also lukewarm? Okay, because we're 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.920 gonna be talking about child Nazis. Oh man, I I was, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.039 I was holding back a little bit. My favorite kind 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.039 of nazis your child not I mean, if they're if 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:32.520 we're going to have them, which we should, but if 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:34.240 we are, if they're a little, if they're a little 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.840 baby teenagers, baby teenage Nazis, and it is kind of 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.880 the funniest cute well like your Garrison brought over his 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.280 little baby kitten and it's very cute, and I'm imagining 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.039 the kitten with a swastick. It's like a little arm 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.520 ball Nazi kitten. So to be so terriful, I know, 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.480 I'm irony poison. I did not like that. But more more, 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.600 are we talking like Jojo Rabbit, Like, what's the situation 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:01.040 here for kind of kid? No? Okay, So today we're 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:02.840 gonna we're gonna dive into one of the things that 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.840 got younger Garrison to actually start to realize that fascism 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.800 is like an ongoing and active problem and way more 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:14.560 complicated than just weird people hating Jewish people. Um and uh, 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:16.320 We're we're gonna be learning about and the thing that 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:17.760 that I learned about a few years ago that you know, 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.639 got me, you know, to learn more about fascism and 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:21.720 kind of got me interested in the topic. UM is 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.639 the accidental five day social experiment done on a group 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.320 of teenagers in a California high school. Uh In. This 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.080 experiment is referred to as the Third Wave. Some people 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.400 may be familiar with this UM. If you're from Germany, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.480 you are because they forced you to learn about it. 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:42.840 UM what with the dubious ethics aside? Looking at how 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:44.799 a charismatic high school teacher got a small group of 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.399 impressionable teenagers in the sixties to grow into a group 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.880 of dedicated of two hundred like dedicated fascists the course 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.960 of just five days. Something we can is something we 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.960 can learn from, and you know, it's like still is 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.280 still relevant even though this was an experiment done in 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.440 the sixties. I mean it sounds like, first off, this 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.320 is an incredibly a story of an incredibly ethical teacher. Yeah, 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:11.480 nothing wrong. Yeah, like That's why I started this by 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.560 saying ethics aside, because yeah, it kind of messed up 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.240 a lot of kids. Sounds really fucked up. Some people 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.920 didn't he a lot of Yeah. Like one of the 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.960 people that um, the high school teacher became friends with 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:28.560 is um Philip Zimbardwe Zimbardo, Zimbardo Zimbardo. He's the of 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.160 the standard experiment a few years later. So yeah, they're 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:36.240 buddies because they boasted highly on ethical experiments. Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:41.880 Philip Zimbardo is my favorite psychologist because he decided long 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.200 ago that it was way more valuable to do things 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.520 that were interesting rather than things that were morally defensible. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.680 And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, and I mean yeah, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.200 I mean, the same thing kind of kind of happened here. Um, 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.080 all right, well let's let's start this motherfucker garrison. You 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.160 know when you do giant pores of liquid that it 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.800 does show up. Yeah, Well, the audience wants me to 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.200 have coffee, Sophie. I mean, I want you to coffee, 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.960 because without coffee, you're just Evans, not Robert. I'm a 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.200 Nazi Evans. Yea. Yeah. As soon as as soon as 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.200 I get coffee in the morning, I stop understanding the 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:23.200 benefits of national socialism. That's that's the thing that really 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.160 gets to have the academic understand the best part of 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:32.160 waking up is no longer believing that Nazism is morally defensible. Yeay, well, 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.560 I mean we're gonna be learning a lot about that today, 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:41.560 which is great. Speaking of Nazism, Yeah, when when when 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.560 people first learn about like the rise of fascism and 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.040 particularly the Nazis. Um. Usually one of the first questions 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.360 I hear people you know talk about and ask is like, 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.479 how could everyday Germans been so complicit? Why why did 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.279 so many people just like let things happen? Um? And 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:57.920 then you know, when you're learning about stuff, at least 0:04:57.920 --> 0:04:59.640 when I did, you know, the thought in your mind 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.040 is like, oh, surely I would have done something to 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.160 stop this from happening. Um. But I mean, if we 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.800 look at the last American election, it's pretty clear that 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.719 a lot of people, if not the majority, like, would 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.520 not take direct action against a rising fascist power in 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:16.360 this country. Um let alone, Let let it in other countries. 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:21.000 I have a feeling, yeah, I have I have an inkling. Um. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.000 But with with that in mind, let's look back to 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.000 the late nineteen sixties and the high school classroom of 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.719 one Ron Jones and how he quite by accident, made 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.919 two hundred child fascists. Um. First, a little background on 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.719 Jones himself, since usually different types of fascism have unique 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:41.080 elements drawn from their central leader. Um Ron Jones started 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.360 teaching in nineteen sixty six, having recently graduated from Stanford 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.880 University UM. He became a high school teacher in Couverly 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.520 High School is right outside of San Francisco. Um Jones 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.200 quickly became the favorite teacher due to his unique and 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:00.000 unconventional teaching style. He was young, very charismatic, and attractive 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.839 of um Jones did not just follow regular curriculums and 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.120 just give lectures. He would he would often bring in guests. 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:11.560 UM students recall him bringing in communists, klansmen, members of 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.080 the American Nazi Party. Had he actually got on the 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.640 phone with with them? With Chairman now in his class, 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:19.360 how did he get on the phone with Could you 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.039 just call chairman mau Did he just have like, I'm 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.359 not sure that it seems like it would be a 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.640 lot of work to get Chairman Aericans also got all 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.000 these are great ideas, Like I don't think bringing a 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.000 klansman into your classes, bringing a klansman or a Nazi 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.400 and dear, I'm not seeing your class. I do think 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:39.080 even I'm not as a rule, if you can get 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.560 a world leader on the phone in your high school class, 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.000 that's yes, kind of cool. But yeah, but like he 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.120 run another like other like you know, Soviet Union stands 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.800 from like from America. Yeah, I'm more fascinated by how 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.599 the hell he got Chairman Mau on the phone. He 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.840 just says he did. I cannot find any explanation. How 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.960 see that. I feel like that it's a whole episode, 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.040 like how do you Okay, Well, I'm very frustrated by 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.360 this man because I want to know how he got 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.680 Chairman chair him out on the phone for his class. Yeah, um, yeah, 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:12.360 I mean he was he was very He followed lots 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.720 of unconventional teaching, um, you know with with the guests. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.760 He would do like historical like simulations in his class, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.440 like trying to replicate historical events as we see here, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.840 you know, with the Nazi thing. Um. A quote, a 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.360 quote from Jones is if if you can feel something 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.480 and work with it, that's better than just reading about it. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.160 So he likes a lot of like, Okay, he likes 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.000 a lot of learning. That's not that's not you know, 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:38.800 just reading in a book. He actually don't get people 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.720 to feel stuff, which I mean successful on the Nazi experiment, 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.080 he messed up a lot of kids. Yeah, I mean, 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.080 I I agree with the basics of what he's saying, 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:53.200 which is that kids learn everyone learns best by doing, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.600 and if you can give people some sort of direct 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.520 experience with the things that are learning about, that's good. Now, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.320 the problem him as that he's teaching them about Nazism, 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.840 and I don't know of many ethical ways to give 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.880 people experiences with Nazism. It's it's kind of a bad idea. Yeah, 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.800 it seems like and Jones probably should have known better because, um, 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.200 he was a left wing activist back in the sixties 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:16.040 and you know still is now. Um, he was a 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.440 member of the New Left Students for Democratic Society, saying 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.080 back in the sixties he was in lots of people 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.160 recall him being a very very supportive of the of 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.240 the Black Panthers and was and participated a lot in 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.440 the anti war movement in the sixties with venom going on. 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.880 So like, he showed it kind of known better, But 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.800 I think his intentions were good. But it's very quickly 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.320 spiraled out of control with this um. But basically he 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.240 was basically just the cool, new hip teacher, and students 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.560 really really did trust him, and lots of students really 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.120 did UM really did like him. UM. So at the 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.800 like the last quarter of his first year of teaching UM, 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:57.360 in a twenty five student sophomore world history class, Jones 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.400 was talking about Nazi Germany. UM. He was They were 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.840 coming to the end of their kind of history section 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.679 on the Nazis UM and a student UM asked the 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.280 question that most of us do at some point, which is, 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.640 you know, how could every German has been complicit? Why 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.040 did people do let things happen? UM, And Jones says 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.480 he didn't really have a good answer, so he thought 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.840 up a short experiment. UM. Now here. This is where 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:24.920 kind of learning about the wave gets a little bit tricky. 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.760 There is a lot of you can when you're trying 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.400 to research this, there's kind of different accounts of what 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.480 happened because no one really, UM was able to you know, 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.040 document this as it was happening. Because the people that 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.800 did all got beat up by the fascists of who 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.120 are trying to you know, the people who were raced 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.680 aft down all got kind of beat up. UM. And 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.880 I'm pretty sure that actually Jones tried this experiment in 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.640 three classes at the same time. But usually when people 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:53.600 talk about the wave, they focus on like the one 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.600 first class UM, but there can be a lot of 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.200 conflicting information when you talk to like students of this, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.920 So we're going to kind of treat it as just 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.320 focusing on this one class. But there may have been 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.960 two other classes doing this experiment um concurrently, but it's 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.560 kind of unclear. So they were learning about nazis um. 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.520 Students asked how the goodness happened. Jones didn't know. He 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:14.520 thought of the experiment the next week, so like the 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.040 Monday after because this experiment ran five days. When students 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.719 came into the class um on this Monday, Jones had 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.680 set up all the chairs and five by five rows, 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.000 which is weird for Jones because he usually had a 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.600 very loose set up because you know, he was like 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.000 the new hip teacher who had you know, students in 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.120 his circle or had people on the floor or whatever. 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.440 But it's like coming into his class and seeing like 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.200 five like five rows of chairs was kind of weird. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:43.720 UM music by Richard Wagner was playing uh German composer 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.800 Wagner Garrison. It's important to pronounce things correct. Wagner, It's 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:54.520 w Richard Wagner's of students were ordered to all sit 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.880 in perfect posture with their hands hands hands by other 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.839 side and on the chalkboard. Jones wrote, strength through discipline. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.360 So we can kind of see where this is going 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.360 to be going. Yeah, he began to lecture the class 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.280 on the values of strict discipline. Um speaking on the 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.720 efficiency of of like a resimated system, um to quote 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.720 to quote, Jones I lectured on the beauty discipline how 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.960 an athlete feels, How an athlete feels having worked hard 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.080 and regularly successful out of sport. How about how a 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.080 ballet dancer or a painter works hard to perfect a movement, 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.600 the dedicated patients of a scientist to pursue an idea. 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.040 It's discipline, It's self training, control the power of will 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.319 in exchange for physical hardships, for superior mental and physical facilities, 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.240 the ultimate triumph. Now, this all the text time quoting 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.440 Jones from has written from him himself, So all typos 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:46.040 are his fault umberously fair enough, it's not my fault. 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.280 He wrote this actually fixed some types. Don't blame me, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:55.520 blame the teacher who made the Nazis. Um pretty good, 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.360 pretty good summary of Nazism without using any of the 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.760 nazi is his Nazi terms like yeah, the strike three discipline, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.760 stuff like that's that's very much like a lot of 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:09.760 Hitler Jugen like ship. Jones was very familiar with fascism 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.240 as as we see, like he'll be talking, you know, 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.320 he'll have sections later on when he take talks about fascism, 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.720 it's like, yeah, he understands, he understands what it is 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.600 like very well. Um, so what Jones was doing on 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.319 the first day, he basically he changed his personality too. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.840 He made him to get He was way more open, playful. 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:32.120 Oh no, no, Robert, look at my cat. Oh no, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.280 uh the cat now has a Nazi bandez band on 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.480 my cat tied around its tour So so it's now 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:46.560 a Nazi cat. How someone who someone who was in 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.920 my mysteriously has given my my cat anaz which you 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.520 mean my cat's name is My cat's name is chairman maow. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.599 And now it's moved to a different type of authoritarianism. Yeah, 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.280 it's either way. It's the responsible of deaths. Well, now 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.319 it's a very cute little Nazi cat. God we would 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.960 post pictures of this online, but we should not. Nope, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.760 don't do it. But not gonna happen. This is really 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:13.079 great audio content, y'all. People are really going to enjoy 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.360 this audio content. That there is now a Nazi cat 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.480 in in the house walking with the leash, walking with 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.800 a leash. It is a very cute kitten, Like, oh 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.920 my god, this little kitten, y'all, you gotta you should 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.839 see this kitten, I mean not you can see the 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.840 kitten on my Twitter not wearing a Nazi not wearing Um, 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:35.520 I'll take that. I'll take that off. That's so cute. Though, again, 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.800 this is very good audio content. Doesn't know that it's 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.280 wearing it doesn't know it's tied to millions of deaths. Millions. Yeah, 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.360 hello body, No, it's just chilling out now now, it's 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:52.080 just chilling the swastika. That's healthy. Yeah, okay, sorry Garrison. 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.760 Um yeah, So basically, Jones adopted a very strict personality. Um. 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:57.800 He told the class to only address him as Mr. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.680 Jones as opposed to Ron as I usually call him. Um. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.559 They were. He made rules about how many words you 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.520 could use to answer like verbal questions. Um. He said 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.640 that students should arrive five minutes before class, um, and 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.520 wait in seated position. You know. In this like he 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.160 he he talked a lot about like posture and how 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.080 better posture leads to better learning, which is you know, dubious, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:19.480 but he like he knows that he was just you know, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.760 trying to make this like disciplined environment. Um he uh. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.120 Her Jones had his students line up outside the class 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.080 and have them enter the class to get into perfect 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.480 seating position. And they like drilled this over and over 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.040 and over again with it with a timer, you know, 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.320 having everyone go outside and everyone you know come back 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.920 inside and trying to get into perfect seated position, you know, 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.240 very quickly. Um. They drilled this until everyone was perfectly 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.480 in sync and got in and sitting under five seconds. UM. 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.480 So like he you know, he was trying to introduce 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.280 this kind of this the rules of discipline and listening 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.440 to authority and just doing things without really any reason 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:54.320 but just listening. And then you know, in this discipline 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.960 environment um. As all of Jones's experiments, grades were based 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.000 on participation. If you wanted to opt out, you could 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.400 just go to the library. Um. On the first day, 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.800 everyone participated very very willingly. Um. No one seems to 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:08.720 make a connection to the German history classes that the 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.720 class had just completed. Um. The the idea was to 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.680 give students a peak into what it was like to 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.320 be a regular German under the Nazis by turning the 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:21.560 world history class into just a one day fascist state. Um. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.120 And that's and that's all it was. It was supposed 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.280 to just be a one day simulation, and that that 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.520 was the next day. The plan was to have, um 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:31.840 just like a discussion over you know what the what 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.360 the experiment was. So that was that that was all 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:36.080 Jones wanted to do, which just this one day kind 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.119 of experiment into getting used to an environment of discipline 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:45.040 and following a strict leader. That's kind of all it was. UM. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.560 So not not super harmful like first day kind of 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.720 kind of all right, it's just a fun one day thing. Um. 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.320 But as Jones entered class the next day, all the 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.960 students were like waiting inside the class of five minutes early, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.160 and they were all sitting in perfect posture inside all 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.480 of the rows in unison. They all chanted good morning, 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.360 Mr Jones. And Jones began to wonder how far he 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.160 could take this, and he walked over to the chalkboard 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:20.960 and wrote down strength through Community. So this is so 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.120 he saw everyone had Like he saw the students were 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.840 very like into this, and it's like, huh, I wonder, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.040 I wonder how how much it could turn them into fascists. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.480 And he just decided to do it. And it was 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.680 just like a spur of the moment decision because the 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.720 experiment was over. They're just like, huh, but if it 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:42.160 isn't over, And I see this doesn't speak well for 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.320 him as a person, although I guess maybe it doesn't 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.720 speak well for anyone as a person, because maybe the 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:51.320 lesson here is that, um, that there's something intoxicating about 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.640 fascism that we can draw anybody in. Jones talks about 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.120 this later, how he actually got pulled into the experiment himself. 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.120 UM don't like that. Yeah, that's very Simbardo him, which 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.200 doesn't make it okay, which is why they're friends. Yeah, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.440 because they're both kind of not great people. Um. So 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.480 Jones wrote strength through Community UM on the track board. 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.680 Next strength through discipline. UM. To quote quote Jones here, 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.879 while the class sat in stern silence, I began to 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:25.399 talk lecture and ceremonized that's a weird word um about 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.800 the value of community at this At this stage in 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.280 the game, I was debating in my mind whether to 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.360 stop the experiment or continue. I hadn't planned on such 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.000 intensity or compliance. In fact, I was surprised to find 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.760 that that the ideas of discipline were enacted at all. 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.760 While debating whether to stop or go on with the experiment, 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.239 I talked on and on about community. I made up 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.200 stories from my experiences as an athlete, a coach, and historian. 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.520 It was easy community being something bigger than oneself, something enjoyable. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:56.359 They really bought onto that argument. So students were like Jones, 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.720 by all accounts, was a very good lecturer. Um. He 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.760 is very, very, very engaging, both when he was more 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.040 like relaxed and charismatic and both when he was, you know, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:10.359 putting on this more strict dictatorial character. Um. Jones had 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.560 the class all chance together strength your discipline, strength through community, 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.640 echoing between pairs of students, getting the whole class in unison, 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.360 starting with one person and adding on another personage time, 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.000 just a whole much, you know, like community drills of 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.720 doing this, you know fashion chance, enjoy this at all 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.720 Garrison and it doesn't know where it's going and it's 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.040 just progressively getting sentence by sentence where it's it is 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.960 kind of predictable. Um, yeah, this might be I don't 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.000 want to be like radical here, but this might be 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:44.199 why you shouldn't experiment on profressionable child. Yeah perhaps, I 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.040 mean I've carried out some experiments on a child and 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:53.480 it worked out pretty well. But it was a Garrison joke. Yeah, 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.400 because I tear gas. I mean, look at look at 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.760 me now reading about fascism with my cat with the 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:06.320 slastika band. Yep, everything's going great plan from the start. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.080 You know what won't convert a kitten to national socialism. 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:17.320 The fine folks who make those chips raytheon would never 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.000 do that. Uh, and neither will the other sponsors of 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:30.359 this podcast. And we're back, all right, Garrison. The Nazi 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.040 arm band is off the kitten. Now that's good. The 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:40.760 kitten has got it off himself. So's most podcasts don't 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:44.879 even radicalize the kitten. So we're really very productive today. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:50.240 It's impossible to radicalize Anderson. No, Anderson is a committed 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.920 anti fascist. He stands fast in. She's a free thinker, 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:59.120 you know, speaking of committed fascism. Um, So after all 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.800 of the chanting together in unison and stuff. Um, at 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.800 the end of the class, Jones made a terrible decision, 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.000 and that decision was to make a class members salute. 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.879 Someone really should have talked to him. People did. He 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.240 had like rabbis calling him throw this little experiment, and 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.720 Jones is like, no, don't worry, it's just an experiment. 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.360 They're like, okay, yeah, I don't like this. It's not great. Um. 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.959 So the salute here, um Jones made. Students were commanded 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.239 to give each other both in and out of class, Like, 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.280 whatever two students met, they were supposed to salute each other. Um, 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.480 both in school out of school, um Jones. Jones called it. 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.800 And now the experiment was also called the third wave. 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.800 Now he claims the third wave is not a reference 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.159 to the third Reich. Um. He claims it has to 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.639 do with like waves and beaches and how like the 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.840 third wave is the strongest wave. But I don't I 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:56.240 don't really buy that because it also sounds too much 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.560 like a third position, Like there's a lot of there's 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:02.159 a lot of third actually things that involve a third Yeah, 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.200 whatever count to three? Never for fascists, two to four, right, 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.040 to four if you're going to count if you don't 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.439 want to, you know, enable nazism. Um to make the salute, 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.679 you brought up your right hand towards your right shoulder 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.320 in a curl position. Um. He called it the third 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.880 wave or you know, just the wave because the hand 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.280 resembled the wave over Like, I I do buy that 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.880 part for calling it the wave, but the third part, 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.719 I mean it is just you know, that's just come on, 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.040 come on, come on, buddy. Um. But just like how 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.120 my cat removed its fascist arm band as McNown anti 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.640 Fascist Day two is where we also got to see 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.480 the start of an anti fascist resistance forming within the school. 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.119 It's like, the really cool thing about this experiment, even 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.520 though it's highly ethical, is that we've got a really 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.920 good microcosm of how fascism develops and how like anti 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.399 fascism develops beside it. By the end of the second day, 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.520 a student in the class got up and said, Mr Jones, 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.200 why can't we just say what we wanted to think? 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.000 Why can't we express our own opinions about what we 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.359 think about the third wave and the periment um? And 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:04.399