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Speaker 1: There was retaliation. All my ties with my business were

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Speaker 1: over and I lost all of my income. What they

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Speaker 1: said would happen to me happened to me. I mean

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Speaker 1: I was fifty two. I was like infected with this disease.

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Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 3: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 3: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 2: four seven eight six.

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Speaker 3: Trust that's three four seven eight six eight seven eight

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Speaker 3: seven eight.

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Speaker 2: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Trust me. Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've

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Speaker 1: never lived. To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 3: Don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast is about cults,

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Speaker 3: extreme belief, and the abusive power from two esoteric philosophers

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Speaker 3: who've actually experienced it. I am Lo La Blanc and

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Speaker 3: I am Megan Elizabeth And this week our guest is

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Speaker 3: Spencer Schneider, lawyer and author of Manhattan Cult Story, My

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Speaker 3: Unbelievable True story of sex crimes, chaos and survival and Unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: It is he's gonna talk to us about how it aged.

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Speaker 3: Twenty nine in New York City, he became friends with

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Speaker 3: the man who introduced him to an esoteric school called School,

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Speaker 3: a secret group of professionals that meant every week to

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Speaker 3: discuss ancient philosophies. He'll tell us about thinking it sounded

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Speaker 3: like a cult, but going anyway, and what it was

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Speaker 3: like when he finally met the leader, Sharon Gantz.

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Speaker 2: Uh give the man all the awards. We'll also discuss

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Speaker 2: what class was like every week, all of the financial

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Speaker 2: and psychological abuses he eventually discovered sharing gans was perpetrating,

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Speaker 2: and how he finally left after twenty three years in

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Speaker 2: the group.

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Speaker 3: His story is so fascinating and heartbreaking and I have

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Speaker 3: so many thoughts about it. But before we discuss, before

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Speaker 3: we get into it with him, Megan, can you tell

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Speaker 3: me what your cult this thing is this week?

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Speaker 2: Sure, it's really sad, actually, and it's something we all

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Speaker 2: know about, but to just see it in black and

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Speaker 2: white today and the news was like ooh. A few

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Speaker 2: moms too, in particular, are suing Meta and Instagram because

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Speaker 2: their preteen daughters got on Instagram and within three months

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Speaker 2: both had horrific eating disorders and tried to kill themselves.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which you know, I do understand as somebody who

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Speaker 2: was dealing with those things myself when I was young

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Speaker 2: and didn't have Instagram. I do understand that preteen is

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Speaker 2: a very turbulent time in life. But three months to

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Speaker 2: go that deep is not normal.

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Speaker 3: That is a very fast amount of time. But in

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Speaker 3: teen years, that feels like a lifetime. I mean true,

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Speaker 3: I cannot imagine being a teenager in the age of

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Speaker 3: Instagram that it like, it's horrifying. I can barely be

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Speaker 3: a thirty four year old in the age of Instagram.

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Speaker 3: I actually deleted it from my phone because it's horrible.

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Speaker 3: I just like get obsessive about it and I muted

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Speaker 3: everyone actually who makes me feel insecure. So that's nice.

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Speaker 3: Oh smart, that's a really good tip. It is not

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Speaker 3: a psychologically healthy environment, I would say for your average

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Speaker 3: teenage girl. It's so interesting too, because I think of

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Speaker 3: eating disorders as like a nineties right, because that was

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Speaker 3: the type of body be valued in the nineties was

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Speaker 3: like super skinny and then just like huge fake hits

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Speaker 3: or whatever. But now it's this like almost even more

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Speaker 3: unrealistic body shape which is like, have a huge ass

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Speaker 3: but a tiny waist and a flat stomach, which who

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Speaker 3: is going to have that body?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, also, it's about to get even crazier because the

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Speaker 2: Kardashians all got their asses removed and lost sixty pounds

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Speaker 2: and were like, Lol, you thought that we were body positive?

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Speaker 3: Wait, is this a confirmed thing? Yeah? I mean I

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Speaker 3: saw that Kim's butt looked smaller recently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and She's like, I lost forty pounds and whatever

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Speaker 2: to fit in Marilyn Monroe's dress.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh my god. I know so many girls.

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Speaker 2: That were like, I'm supporting them because their body positive,

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Speaker 2: and now they've taken it back. I feel like Kate

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Speaker 2: Moss is back in the headlines everywhere. I look like

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Speaker 2: young people are sharing pictures of her because of the

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Speaker 2: Johnny Depp shit, and I'm just like, ah, the.

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Speaker 4: Cycle starts again. It's no longer high rise jeans.

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Speaker 2: Y'all don't understand that we did a service to humanity

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Speaker 2: and that was low rise jens.

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Speaker 3: And that oh, high rise genes were a service to humanity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, low rise jeans are a service

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Speaker 2: to no one.

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Speaker 3: But asses are very much still the thing asses are not.

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Speaker 3: It's just that they're this giant exaggerated obviously fake ass

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Speaker 3: isn't cool anymorea which I think is a good thing.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we should all be aspiring to have

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Speaker 3: these ridiculous bedunks that don't that no human would.

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Speaker 2: Ever have that you had to get from surgery.

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Speaker 3: I love, and by love, I mean get sad when

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Speaker 3: I see when there are certain people on the internet

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Speaker 3: who will be like, my trainer got my booty big,

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Speaker 3: and it's like you so clearly got a Brazilian butt lift,

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Speaker 3: and like that's okay. I have been very time to

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Speaker 3: get a Brazilian butt lift. But don't make people think

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Speaker 3: that you can get that by working out, because that's

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Speaker 3: just not real.

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Speaker 4: I wish their trainer would comment.

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Speaker 3: It's like, no, you're your body shape doesn't change that

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Speaker 3: dramatically when you work out. I've talked to multiple trainers

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Speaker 3: about this. This is not a thing, but they get

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Speaker 3: you know, you get so tricked and because people are

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Speaker 3: just fucking fake about it. This isn't even what this

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Speaker 3: episode is about at all. But I would like to

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Speaker 3: be transparent. I get fucking fillers in my face, and

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Speaker 3: I don't pretend that I don't because that's stupid. That's

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Speaker 3: why I look young guys. What about you?

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Speaker 2: What's the cultiest thing that that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 3: Oh gosh, people are so sick of hearing about OCD.

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Speaker 3: But in my OCD journeys, one of the themes.

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Speaker 4: Part of your OCD is talking about.

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Speaker 3: One of the themes that has threatened to take over

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Speaker 3: has been like this, these existential obsessions and like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: thinking about death and you know how every day that

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Speaker 3: passes is just fleeting and we're all gonna die whatever.

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Speaker 3: It's just like to an unusual degree because it's literally

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Speaker 3: like it takes over my brain and it's all I

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Speaker 3: can think about. So I decided to do an exposure

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Speaker 3: and what I did was go to a meeting held

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Speaker 3: by death doulas. Do you know what a death doula is?

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Speaker 1: Cool?

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Speaker 3: I do so for anyone who doesn't know, a death

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Speaker 3: doula is the same as a doulah for your baby,

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Speaker 3: except for the dying and for the loved ones of

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Speaker 3: the dying or the dead. It's part of a larger

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Speaker 3: culture called the death positive movement. The basic idea is

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Speaker 3: like we as a culture, particularly in America, hide from death.

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Speaker 3: We don't want to see it. We want to get

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Speaker 3: the bodies out right away. We want to pretend it's

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Speaker 3: not there. We want to avoid it at all costs.

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Speaker 3: What if we sat with it and let ourselves feel

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Speaker 3: our feelings and like, you know, if Grandpa dies or whatever,

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Speaker 3: instead of rushing him off to the morgue immediately, some

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Speaker 3: people would put his body on dry ice and have

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Speaker 3: people come and visit and just like grieve in a

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Speaker 3: real way that actually deals with the fact that he's

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Speaker 3: dead instead of trying to hide it away. Anyway. There

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Speaker 3: are lots of different approaches. It's also just like you

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Speaker 3: talk about it instead of avoiding. And so I went

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Speaker 3: to this group where we just talked about death for

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Speaker 3: an hour and it was amazing.

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Speaker 2: So I have a quick question, how did you guys

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Speaker 2: deal with that in the Mormon Church?

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Speaker 4: Because how I was raised.

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Speaker 2: We went to open casket funerals like every other week.

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Speaker 2: It was death, death, death, sit by the dead person,

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Speaker 2: look at the dead person. Life is about dying, dying, dying, dying.

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Speaker 2: Did the Mormon Church really stress.

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Speaker 3: That, well, not in any special way beyond any other group.

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Speaker 3: I don't think. I only went to one funeral. I

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Speaker 3: think as a kid, which was my grandpa and he

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Speaker 3: wasn't Mormon, but there isn't like a particular Mormon ritual.

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Speaker 3: It's just like general American, like you go to the

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Speaker 3: funeral and it's yes, it's open casket. But at least

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Speaker 3: this used to be a thing where people didn't want

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Speaker 3: to be cremated because they wanted their bodies to come

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Speaker 3: back alive. When Jesus came.

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Speaker 2: Back, I feel like once lands started to get really expensive,

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Speaker 2: everyone was like just kidding, Jesus can figure it.

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Speaker 3: Out, I know. But yeah, but it wasn't like it

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Speaker 3: was never a thing. It wasn't about death. It was

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Speaker 3: about the afterlife. The death was just like a blip

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Speaker 3: on the way to the afterlife. So we didn't focus

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Speaker 3: on it at all. And one of the things that

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Speaker 3: one of the duelas talked to me about and I

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Speaker 3: actually might have him come on because he was amazing.

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Speaker 1: Oh that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. But it is going from being a religious person

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Speaker 3: talking about death to a non religious person talking about death,

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Speaker 3: because it's a completely different experience because it's one is like,

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Speaker 3: oh fuck, I have to contend with the fact that

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Speaker 3: this is it, right, Like this is it this might

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Speaker 3: or or at least this might be it. There isn't

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Speaker 3: heaven waiting for me and my family greeting me to

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Speaker 3: guide me to the other side, Like this might I

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Speaker 3: might just literally be in the ground and that might

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Speaker 3: be the end of it. So it's like it can

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Speaker 3: be especially useful for non religious people, almost like the

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Speaker 3: way taking mushrooms is for people who are dying. It's like,

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Speaker 3: become comfortable with the idea that this is the cycle

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Speaker 3: of life and nature and the universe, and you may

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Speaker 3: not persist as a spirit in heaven, but that's okay,

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Speaker 3: that is okay, Yeah, okay, let's talk to Spencer. Okay,

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Speaker 3: welcome Spencer Schneider. Thank you so much for coming on.

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Speaker 1: Trust me real to be here, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Ah, so many questions for you. What a freaking fascinating story.

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Speaker 3: So you are a lawyer and also an author of

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Speaker 3: a new book called Manhattan Cult Story, My Unbelievable True

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Speaker 3: Story of sex, crimes, chaos and Survival. What a title. Basically,

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Speaker 3: you spent twenty three years right in a secretive cult

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Speaker 3: called school.

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Speaker 1: In New York.

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Speaker 3: So can you please start us at the beginning and

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Speaker 3: just tell us what your life was like before you

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Speaker 3: got recruited.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I was and still am an attorney. I'm a

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Speaker 1: New Yorker. I went to college in the Midwest, and

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Speaker 1: then I came back to New York for law school.

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Speaker 1: Then started working for a big law firm, and you know,

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Speaker 1: led the life of most lawyers working for big corporate

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Speaker 1: law firms, which is, you know, working a lot of hours.

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Speaker 1: I actually was in California about a year in San Jose.

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Speaker 1: You know, that kind of disruption of your life, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of isolating. But I had everything I wanted. Really.

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Speaker 1: I was doing well and had plenty of friends and

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Speaker 1: a stable life. There's nothing remarkable about my background that

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Speaker 1: would indicate someone falling for a cult or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I viewed myself as very independent. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: even in a frat, you know, I never was in

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Speaker 1: any kind of clubs or anything like that. But when

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Speaker 1: I was twenty nine, I met an acquaintance who was

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Speaker 1: you know, I've educated guy, super smart about my age,

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Speaker 1: you know, attractive, charming, good guy. You know you totally

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Speaker 1: like him. You know, he worked as a bartender while

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Speaker 1: he was going to Columbia at night. You know, he

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Speaker 1: showed great interest in talking to me because my band

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Speaker 1: played there, and we chatted and this and that, and

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Speaker 1: these long conversations at the bar during my breaks turned

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Speaker 1: into more deeper conversations about the meeting of life and

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Speaker 1: philosophy and stuff that I loved talking about because I

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Speaker 1: was a philosophy major. Eventually he started asking to meet

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Speaker 1: me and have meetings and talk about myself, and I

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Speaker 1: was suspicious. I didn't know if he was like coming

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Speaker 1: on to me or what was going on.

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Speaker 2: He said, he's kind of like a stalker, right, is

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Speaker 2: this the same guy that it kind of felt like

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Speaker 2: he was stalking you a little bit.

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Speaker 1: It did, Yeah, it did feel like stalking. I didn't

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Speaker 1: like it because it just wasn't cool. And he was

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Speaker 1: like just showing up, like at weird places and weird

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Speaker 1: times to like meet with me. It was just unusual.

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Speaker 1: One evening he asked to meet me and talk. He

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Speaker 1: said he had something very important to tell me. And

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Speaker 1: so I met him in a bar downtown. I'm twenty

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Speaker 1: nine again, and he's about my age and this is

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, and we sit down in this bar

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Speaker 1: and I said, okay, so what's the thing. Are you

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Speaker 1: about to come out to me, is like, what is

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Speaker 1: going on? And he said, no, no, no, I'm not

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Speaker 1: you know, involved in something that's very secretive and very

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Speaker 1: private and it's an esoteric school, and I just want

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Speaker 1: to offer you the opportunity to attend it. We study

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Speaker 1: Gerschief and Aspenske and it's very special, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who are very smart like you. I think you'll

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Speaker 1: love it. Blah blah blah blah blah, like no, thanks,

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Speaker 1: it's a cult. And I said, don't you know, don't

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Speaker 1: bother me any more about it. But I felt bad

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Speaker 1: for saying that, and I figured I'd give it a

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Speaker 1: shot and find out more about it, because I felt

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Speaker 1: guilty for turning him down. Really, did I hurt.

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Speaker 2: Or offended when you said that? Is that why you

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Speaker 2: felt guilty?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: He did?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know people have asked was that an act?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think he was offended genuinely,

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Speaker 1: and I think I, as you know, Jewish neurotic type

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Speaker 1: of person, felt very guilty. Right, Yeah, So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to give him another chance. So he said, let's meet

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Speaker 1: somebody else from the group and then you could ask

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Speaker 1: more questions and then if you want you can comment

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Speaker 1: meets twice a week. You have to commit to come

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Speaker 1: for a month. Blah blah blah. I said, okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: so I'm.

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Speaker 3: Gonna I'm gonna pause you. I just want to pause

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Speaker 3: you for seconds, like, let's talk about some of this stuff.

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Speaker 3: So first of all, I just want to note that,

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Speaker 3: like coming from someone who you've you know, sort of

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Speaker 3: forged this intellectual connection with, is different from just like

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Speaker 3: a random person on the street just coming up to

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Speaker 3: you and being like, come to this thing. It's like, no,

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Speaker 3: you've talked about philosophy. He's obviously academic and very curious

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Speaker 3: and interested, and like, you've developed this connection already. So

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Speaker 3: by the time he approaches you for this thing, I

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Speaker 3: imagine there's a little bit of trust built up between you.

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Speaker 1: Would you say absolutely? That is the key aspect here,

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Speaker 1: that I did have some trust in him, and I

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Speaker 1: otherwise would not have pursued it if he didn't look

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Speaker 1: like someone who was like me frankly yeah and acted

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Speaker 1: like me. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I also just always think it's so important to note

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Speaker 3: that extremely educated people join these groups. This is not

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Speaker 3: a thing that has this has nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: our like intellectual capacity. And if anything. It just means

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Speaker 3: we're more curious and more interested we are in learning.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: I also think that there's this phenomenon that happens where

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Speaker 2: once you reach a certain point in your life and

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Speaker 2: you're still not happy, you still need more meaning. You know,

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Speaker 2: so you are super educated, you do have the great job,

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Speaker 2: you are with the people and whatever, and you're like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell does this all mean? Yeah, you can

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Speaker 2: sometimes get sucked into things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, and I as someone who you know, I think

302
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Speaker 3: my grandpa, like some of my family were Masons, And

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Speaker 3: for me, like just the idea of like a secretive

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Speaker 3: group that has this long history whatever and maybe has

305
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Speaker 3: some kind of esoteric knowledge, like so appealing regardless of

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Speaker 3: whether you have a void or you're searching or anything.

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Speaker 3: You think it's just inherently appealing. The idea that like

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Speaker 3: powerful intellectuals secretly meet and like learn together and share knowledge.

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Speaker 3: Like there's something just so cinematic about that, you know,

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Speaker 3: like it would be intriguing to anyone.

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Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, you know in the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: movie that the guy's gonna super get fucked by, You're

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Speaker 2: gonna go anyway you know you have.

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Speaker 3: Well, I would do it. Yeah exactly, Am I not

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Speaker 3: going to go? Yeah? Bruce who we're calling him?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So Bruce also introduces you to like a beautiful lady, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bruce knew my number. I mean, you know, first

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Speaker 1: of all, Bruce and the lady he introduced me, I

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Speaker 1: should say not to give too much away, but they

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Speaker 1: were both two of the best recruiters for the cult.

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Speaker 1: Bruce was extremely handsome. The lady he introduced me to, Heather,

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Speaker 1: was extremely beautiful. And they had this intense, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: these knowing looks at each other. I mean, they weren't

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Speaker 1: like physical, like you didn't think they were like screwing

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Speaker 1: each other, but you weren't quite sure, right, That whole

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Speaker 1: intrigue was really intense, and they had this real bond

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Speaker 1: and they talked about meaning and what do you really

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Speaker 1: want in your life and things that you wouldn't really

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't talk to about to strangers, although you might,

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Speaker 1: you know that sort of you meet somebody in the airport,

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Speaker 1: ever stuck on a plane with anybody, and maybe you

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Speaker 1: kind of like them a little bit, and you chat

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Speaker 1: and you open up about your whole life and then

335
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Speaker 1: you'll never see them again. But this was just like that,

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Speaker 1: except I was going to see them again. So there

337
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 1: were two things that hooked. I don't that relates to

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Speaker 1: exactly what you've both said, which is the intellectual curiosity

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Speaker 1: that I had, and this sort of secret society seemed like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's really cool. If they had told me it was

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Speaker 1: Este or Hary Krishner or something new, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I would have been to it. But the fact

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Speaker 1: that it was like ancient agorists and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, shit, you know, this sounds cool. And she

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Speaker 1: was beautiful. You know, it's like, Okay, maybe there's some

346
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Speaker 1: more like her there. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: At the end of our shows, we'll usually talk about

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Speaker 3: whether we feel like that would be a cult that

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Speaker 3: we would join, and I feel like this is absolutely

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Speaker 3: the kind that I would join. You got hot people

351
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Speaker 3: talking smart stuff. They were like Ivy League, people like

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Speaker 3: this is my shit be all about.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think you might get to a meeting, But

354
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Speaker 1: then the question is will you stay? That's really the

355
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Speaker 1: big question.

356
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Speaker 3: Well, tell us about that next phase. So what happens

357
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Speaker 3: when you go to this first meeting? What was it like?

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Speaker 1: It was very disappointing. I mean, you know, there was

359
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Speaker 1: all this intrigue in cloak and dagger, and he didn't

360
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Speaker 1: even tell me where we were going. He didn't give

361
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Speaker 1: me the address. It was like, what, you know, that

362
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Speaker 1: sounds cool, He's taking me to some secret hideaway. But

363
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Speaker 1: it was just like a loft above a fabric store

364
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Speaker 1: on Lower Broadway. It was like all boarded up. It

365
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Speaker 1: was like what And then I go upstairs and there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of white people like me, and it looks

367
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Speaker 1: really boring. I mean there was nobody chanting or anything

368
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Speaker 1: like that, which was fine, but you know, it just

369
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Speaker 1: seemed all very plain, vanilla, and the conversation was actually dull.

370
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Speaker 1: I didn't understand what they were talking about. They didn't

371
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Speaker 1: make any effort to let us in, but they did

372
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Speaker 1: tell us like all of these like rules. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the main rule it's like fight club. That's the first

374
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Speaker 1: rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club.

375
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Speaker 1: And the second rule is you don't talk about fight club.

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Speaker 1: And this was impressed upon me deep heavy duty. So

377
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Speaker 1: I wasn't impressed. I wasn't inclined to return, and yet

378
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Speaker 1: I did, and I had to do with this crisis

379
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Speaker 1: that I faced. Should I get into that or do

380
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,200
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you could interrupt whenever you want. I mean, no, I.

381
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Speaker 3: Want the crisis. Tell us the crisis.

382
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the crisis.

383
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Speaker 1: Well that's see. I don't know. So that's the thing.

384
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Speaker 1: I mean, we would have gotten you ladies in the door.

385
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Speaker 1: Were you having a crisis, Maybe you were looking for something.

386
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Speaker 1: I was not looking for anything. I had no interest

387
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Speaker 1: in anything spiritual. I had enough friends. It was interesting,

388
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Speaker 1: but I had a crisis. I was twenty nine and

389
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Speaker 1: I lost my job. It's like, what why is this happening?

390
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,199
Speaker 1: You know, it was very upsetting to me. I'm a lawyer,

391
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Speaker 1: you know, I had stability, but my firm was closing.

392
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Speaker 1: So I went into the group and I talked about

393
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Speaker 1: it to the leader and the rest of the students.

394
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Speaker 1: It's kind of like a group therapy kind of session.

395
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Speaker 1: That's really kind of what it was. And they were

396
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 1: so encouraging and so supportive and sympathetic to the situation

397
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 1: that they made me feel like, you know, like they

398
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 1: loved me, I know, and they really cared about my situation.

399
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 1: I never heard people talk in the way they did

400
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 1: to me, And it was like kind of just like

401
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: the beginning of like falling in love with somebody, right,

402
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 1: and that began the dissent.

403
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 3: Did you have like a close circle of friends prior

404
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 3: to meeting this group, Yeah.

405
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 1: Thank god. And they were there when I got out,

406
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 1: thank god. But well yeah, but you know, it was

407
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 1: like I told them about it, but these people were different.

408
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 3: That's so interesting, Yeah, because I think the thinking tends

409
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 3: to be that there's like some gaping hole in our

410
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,720
Speaker 3: lives that leads us to join a cult.

411
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I always think. But you're right, it

412
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 4: can just be.

413
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 3: It can just be like this situation is it like

414
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 3: feels good right now, and that like that can be

415
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 3: the extent of it. Like you had friends, you had

416
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Speaker 3: a career, you know, even you did lose your job,

417
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 3: it seems like you pretty much had built a life

418
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Speaker 3: for yourself. You're twenty nine, You're not like this eighteen

419
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 3: year old boy looking for identity or whatever. That's really interesting,

420
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Speaker 3: and I think that in general, like people who are

421
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 3: recruiters or members of these groups in particular, the leaders

422
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 3: are very skilled at generating those emotional experiences.

423
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Speaker 4: For people weaponized. The empathy.

424
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Speaker 3: Love bombing is all a part of that. I mean,

425
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 3: it's like anything that makes us feel special or seen

426
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 3: or heard or understood for the first time in a

427
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 3: way that no one else has. I mean, that's just

428
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Speaker 3: going to be intoxicating for pretty much everyone. Yeah, I mean.

429
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Speaker 2: There is that other aspect of like, Okay, you're twenty nine,

430
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 2: you lost your job, Go get another one. Like what

431
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: was it about it to you that felt so deep?

432
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: Well, it was like a failure, you know, along as

433
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 1: a long trajectory of hard work and then this sudden thing.

434
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 1: You know, there were other things that were going on

435
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: in my life. My father had died a few years earlier,

436
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 1: and I never really sort of mourned and had dealt

437
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 1: with those issues. You know, it's complicated. It's not cut

438
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 1: and dry. You know, there's a lot of things. I mean,

439
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: I definitely have things that might be some things in

440
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 1: my life that let me open for it. You know,

441
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. But I refuse to blame myself anymore.

442
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,959
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that because they were common, you know,

443
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: and they were good at it, and it was really sophisticated. Yeah,

444
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,479
Speaker 1: and they got a lot of people in there who

445
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 1: would never be involved. Obviously, no one wants to be

446
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: involved in a cult, but you know, most people there

447
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't be involved in like a club. You know, they're

448
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: very independent people. They wouldn't go to like a book club.

449
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 1: You know, they wouldn't you know, I don't think people

450
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: would join a gym or anything, you know. I mean seriously,

451
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: like really not loaners, but people who have like kind

452
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: of like built in good lives. They like have families

453
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: and really good jobs. But I mean, there's so much

454
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: to talk about about the philosophy of it. I mean,

455
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 1: we could spend days and I'm happy to do that,

456
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: but I don't know how much more I need to

457
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: say about that. You ladies, seem to have a very

458
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: good understanding of it for your own personal lives and

459
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: the many I mean, you're both experts in it. So

460
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: that's why it's exciting to talk to you.

461
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 3: That's why it's exciting to talk to you. Okay, So

462
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 3: you have this meeting where you feel seen and you're like, oh,

463
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 3: they're empathizing with me. And if you you know you're

464
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: feeling understood, what then happens, Like what does daily life

465
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 3: look like as you kind of begin to become deeper

466
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 3: in it?

467
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 1: Well, I continue to go and I continue to pay,

468
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: and I continue to keep it secret, and I continue

469
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: to only see these people and talk to these people

470
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 1: only at these twice a week meetings, so like you

471
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: didn't go out on dates with anybody there or you know,

472
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: there was this rule of no fraternizing, and there was

473
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: no information about this group whatsoever. There was no flyers,

474
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: they had no reading material. The teachers they called themselves teachers,

475
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: didn't have any last names, and there was something else

476
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: they didn't have. In nineteen eighty nine, there was no internet,

477
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: so there was really nothing there and it was kind

478
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: of cool, I guess in a way. But you know,

479
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: the day to day life of going to work, then

480
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: going to meetings and reading what they had given us

481
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: to read, talking about the readings, and then talking about

482
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: our personal lives and class working on the ideas of

483
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: Gerdchef and Aspensky, which were interesting, and it was just

484
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: kind of like starting to lead a secret life. That

485
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 1: was kind of exciting.

486
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: Can you tell us about what some of the beliefs

487
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 3: were and who those philosophers are?

488
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, those unpronounceable philosophers Girt, Chef and Aspensky. You know,

489
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: you know who knows them? Like a lot of people

490
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: who were like my age and hanging out in the

491
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 1: sixties or older than me and were reading, you know,

492
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 1: spiritual things in the sixties and seventies. This whole group,

493
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: by the way, starting California in San Francisco. But in

494
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: any event, were Cheffinitspensky. They had something called the Fourth Way,

495
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 1: and their whole spiel was that there are different ways

496
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: of man to evolve through consciousness raising activities. So there's

497
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: the way of the Monk, which is religious, the way

498
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: of the Fakir, which is physical, and in the way

499
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: of the something else I can't remember, and then there's

500
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: the Fourth Way, which was their new, brand new fourth

501
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: Way that they came up with, and they said it

502
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: existed since Pythagoras. And basically the concept is that man

503
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: is asleep and in order to awaken you need to

504
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: belong to an esoteric school and use the ideas of

505
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: the so called Work. And there's a bunch of tools

506
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: that they used that they say that were based on

507
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: cosmic principles and things like relaxing and their Big Mac,

508
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: you know, like McDonald's says, the Big Mac, like the

509
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: Work had this thing called self remembering.

510
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 4: I'm already yeah, yeah, I want to I want to

511
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 4: do it.

512
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: What is it you want to do it? Yeah? Well okay,

513
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: great question. So I'll tell you exactly what they said

514
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: to me. Okay, what's the question. What is self remembering? Right,

515
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: that's the question.

516
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: Okay.

517
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: The answer that the leader gave us was, it's when

518
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: you remember your.

519
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: Self, okay, your true self, like a past life self.

520
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: It's when I'm going to continue to play like that. Yeah, yeah, okay,

521
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: I'll keep going. It's when you remember yourself and do you.

522
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 3: And they just say that until you're like, ah, yes, yes,

523
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: that's deep.

524
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's exactly what they do. And you keep

525
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: going and it's a game, and it's you know, people

526
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: the class starts to laugh, and then he's seriously repeat

527
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: eating the same thing over and over again, wow, more emphatically,

528
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: putting his hand on his heart. And then we were

529
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: not getting anywhere. But some of the older senior group

530
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: people in the group were going, ah, yes, you know,

531
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: and so as younger people are going, shit, maybe they

532
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: know something we don't know. And then by the end

533
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: of it, you're convinced there's something there that you just

534
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: don't know, Like you didn't do the homework that day,

535
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 1: but you'd better pretend you know it.

536
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: What a fascinating tactic. It's like reading meaning into anything.

537
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 3: You're like, Okay, if I think hard enough about it, yes,

538
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 3: I think you can completely subjectively decide what the meaning is.

539
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: But then when everyone else around you also is like aha,

540
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: there's this pressure to be like right, yes, yes, of

541
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 3: course you remember yourself, you know, like that would be.

542
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: It reminds me of that Buddhast story where like the

543
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: Buddha held up a flower and everybody was looking at it,

544
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: and then finally the young disciples started laughing, and it's

545
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: I've always been like, what the hell happened to have.

546
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: The emperor's new clothes?

547
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: I know that too, Yeah, yeah, but I just remember

548
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: always reading that story when when I would look into.

549
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 4: Buddhism things and they never told you what he saw.

550
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 4: You had to see it. He saw it, and so

551
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 4: who know.

552
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: Which is like? It can of course it can feel

553
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: deep because you can apply literally anything from your life

554
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: experience to it, from your understanding at this point, who

555
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: is the one who's sort of spearheading bringing these beliefs

556
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: to all of you? Do you know? Are you aware

557
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: of who the leader is?

558
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: Like? What?

559
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 4: What do you know about this at that point.

560
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we did. We you know, we had a

561
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: few different teachers. We were like in our early thirties,

562
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: most of us, and the leaders were like in the

563
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: mid forties, so they seemed really old to us. And

564
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: you know, in about a year later, even older woman

565
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: showed up one day and we were told that she

566
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: was our teacher's teacher and she was our teacher as well,

567
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: and that was Sharon Dance. There was no internet again,

568
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: so we didn't know. We didn't know her last name.

569
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: She was just introduced to Sharon. I thought she was nuts.

570
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: I was not happy to see her because I liked

571
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: the people who were already leading, and they were like

572
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: in love with her, scuttling around the room. They couldn't

573
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: do enough for her, pouring her drinks and lighting her

574
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: cigarette and just carrying on. And she was a very

575
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: strange woman.

576
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 3: Was it a surprise when she showed up or you

577
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: knew about her beforehand and like here she is, Oh, yeah.

578
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: No, she just arrived. It was a surprise. I was

579
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: always surprises. Yeah, there were always surprises. There were always

580
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: secrets in the group. They kept information very limited, and

581
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: we kind of liked that, so it was kind of

582
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: fun to have surprises.

583
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: What was so intriguing about her?

584
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously she's a narcissist, so that'll do it

585
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: a lot of the time.

586
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 4: But what else, what was it? What was it about her?

587
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: Well, she came in that night and she was talking

588
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: about sex, which was something we want, weren't talking about

589
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: it all, and she supposedly had this great knowledge about

590
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: you know, conscious love and sex, and you know that

591
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: all sounds really good. I mean, that's interesting, although she

592
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: kind of talked like a sailor and it didn't really

593
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: register for anybody we were and she made some strange

594
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: comments about being, you know, at a very high level

595
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: of consciousness. But when she came back the next time

596
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: and everybody was frightened of her. You know, her resemblance,

597
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: a very odd look about her, very dyed red hair

598
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: piled up on top of her head, this very regal manner.

599
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: She looked like a medieval queen. I mean, she tried

600
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: to look like she was in a Shakespeare variant peace

601
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: And it was just bizarre.

602
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 3: Was she dressed in like old fashioned clothing?

603
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, really? Or like this big, odd, billowy dress

604
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: with the gaudy jewelry and big earrings flowing down to

605
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: the floor. She had on sunglasses and this is all

606
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: this was very expensive clothing.

607
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 3: They love sunglasses. They always wear sunglasses.

608
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: Okay, she had sunglasses and she was wearing high top

609
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: converse sneakers.

610
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 4: Well, the look is psychonic. I have to admit, I know.

611
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: I'm like, I need to do a book just some

612
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: cult leadership.

613
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is so interesting as far as the look goes,

614
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: I do think she nailed it.

615
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 3: But were you struck by her charisma though? Or was

616
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: it more just that everyone else was behaving as though

617
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: she was special.

618
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was more of other people were behaving, But

619
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: most of us did not react well to her. The eldest,

620
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: more senior people were very much enthralled by her, and

621
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: we all respected them, and so it was just like

622
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: self remembering, like, what the fuck is that the same situation.

623
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: But she did earn her adulation from the rest of

624
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: us because while she could be quite evil and shameless,

625
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: she could dispense, you know, advice that seemed really good

626
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: and very loving and so dramatic and just wise. You know,

627
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: like this sort of wise woman who you kind of

628
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: wish your mother said. I mean, you don't wish her

629
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: for your mother, believe me, But like your mother dispensed

630
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: really great advice and took you under and just always

631
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: really motherly and but brilliant. I mean she was really

632
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: well spoken, had no really good education, but very well

633
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: read and very convincing in all of her advice.

634
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: You know what, I just realized, it's not like you

635
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: can go afterwards and talk to one of the people

636
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 2: in it, like ball Lady was weird because you're not

637
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: really supposed to talk outside of it.

638
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: Huh, that's right. So after class we had this thing

639
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: called an hour of silence. We weren't allowed to like

640
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: compare notes, brilliant. We all had to be so that

641
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: this is all figured out.

642
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: Wow, you can't talk to anyone for that hour? Is

643
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: it literal? Like I have to go for an hour?

644
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: Wow? Okay, you go home and you know you don't

645
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: talk for an hour. I mean I didn't want to

646
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: tell the camp drive where it was going. It was

647
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: like sign language, like down there, you know. It was

648
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: like crazy, Wow, what.

649
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 3: A way to turn off your ability to process your experiences.

650
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: It was exactly pitched as a way to process your

651
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: experience by letting the night in the evening, you know,

652
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: really dig into you and digest it.

653
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: And if you saw someone from class out in the.

654
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 4: World, Yeah, did that ever happen? Did you guys have

655
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: to pretend you didn't know each Yeah?

656
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 3: Is it a fight club? Situation?

657
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: Fight club? I saw people on the subway, maybe almost

658
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: barely a nod or just look the other way. There's

659
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: no talking, there's no nothing. And then maybe if you

660
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: saw them in class, you'd say, hey, that was great

661
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: to see you. You look great, you look like you

662
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: were remembering yourself.

663
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: This is the first I've heard of a cult doing this,

664
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: like not letting its members talk outside of the meeting,

665
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 3: and it's brilliant. Yeah, it's really how do cult leaders

666
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 3: lose their power? Well, when the members start talking to

667
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: each other and start sharing stories and sharing their doubt.

668
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 3: Was weird? What about when she said that last but

669
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 3: genious way to keep people completely isolated and completely unable

670
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 3: to think about whether something that the experience was normal

671
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 3: and healthy.

672
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: Especially in the early years, it was very strict about

673
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: the non freatenization. Later on it was loosened a little bit,

674
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: but by then everybody was tattling on everybody if they

675
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: ever said anything nasty. Look, if you expressed your doubts,

676
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: you're encouraged to come in the class. Or we privately

677
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: expressed our doubts and we were immediately told to disavow them. Like, oh, yeah,

678
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: of course you think it's a cult. Ha ha noll crazy.

679
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah.

680
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funny how many people who were in

681
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: cults joked about it a cult while they were in

682
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 3: the cold. Yeah, you absolutely have to and even recognize

683
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 3: it in the beginning like you did, and then still

684
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: we still were like, oh, this is probably a cult,

685
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 3: but it's fine.

686
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, can you believe people think we're a cult?

687
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: I mean obviously they would think that because we're doing

688
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: such amazing things and working so deeply in whatever, or.

689
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 3: Like, it's fine, it's it's a happy cult. It's a

690
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: positive cult. So if we're a cult, I don't care.

691
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And if we're a called I want to be

692
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 4: in a.

693
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: Clulte Well she said that a couple of times. She

694
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: even said that, really, call it a cult whatever you want.

695
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: Right, I mean that would work. I mean that's like

696
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 3: totally fair. We talk about that too. It's like there

697
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 3: are groups that like technically seem culty but like, as

698
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: long as they're not doing any harm, who cares? You know,

699
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: So it's really about recognizing that harm. And actually, great segue, Lola,

700
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 3: because let's talk about the harm. Yeah, like you said

701
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: you had.

702
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 4: To give money every week. What kind of money are

703
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:53,479
Speaker 4: we talking?

704
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, okay, so we gave three hundred a month,

705
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: you know when up for some people that some people

706
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: were paying five. By the time I left, I was

707
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: not only paying that three hundred, but I was paying

708
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 1: other fees to them. And let's say one thing about

709
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: the harm. I never thought any of this was harmful,

710
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: not one thing. Wow, For twenty three years, I thought

711
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: it was all for my own good. And even after

712
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: I left, it took me years and a lot of

713
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: therapy and a lot of good luck and good friends

714
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: to start realizing that there was a lot of harm

715
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: and it was harmful from day one. The disgusting, outrageous

716
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: treatment and lies that this group perpetuates on good people,

717
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: good willing, good natured people who had ruined lives. You know, nobody,

718
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: nobody talks about this group. There have been hundreds thousands

719
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: of people who've come and gone through this group, and

720
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: nobody has talked public about it wow, or written publicly

721
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: about it. There's one other blogger, but that's it. And

722
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: they're still out there. They're doing this. Sharon died, but

723
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: they're still doing this group, but they're still going on.

724
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: Unbelievable.

725
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: So what are the other harmful things you wanted to know?

726
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? You realized she started controlling people's lives, right, Like

727
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 3: what was she doing? How did that happen?

728
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, okay, so yeah, right, Well you're encouraged to

729
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: come in and ask for advice, you know, so called

730
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: apply the ideas to our lives. If you weren't married,

731
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: you wanted to be married or find somebody, or you know,

732
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: you wanted to make more money, and you know, everybody

733
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: wants something. And those are the main things that we

734
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: talked about that people cared about. People also cared about,

735
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: like their families and whatnot. And Sharon would appine on

736
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: all of these things. And the kinds of things that

737
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: she oppined on she had no qualifications, but I mean,

738
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: just to give examples, like she would encourage people to

739
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: have affairs with other people in the group. Wow, she

740
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: would tell women. You know, it happened on more than

741
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: one occasion. And again, this didn't happen in the first

742
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: year of her being there. This is you know, progressively

743
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: gets worse, and I try to take my reader in

744
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: the book through that journey so you can really see why,

745
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: Oh that could happen. Oh yeah, maybe that could happen.

746
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: Or the reader will start cringing because they know where

747
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: this is going. And then each red flag becomes darker

748
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: and darker and redder and redder for them, you know,

749
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: me and the others are just getting more fucked over.

750
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 3: That's such an important point because, yeah, if they were

751
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 3: to start just doling out abusive practices immediately, like everyone

752
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 3: would leave. That's not how it works. It's like doing

753
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: using and then you adjust to that reality and then

754
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: from there you can do a slightly bigger thing because

755
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 3: you've adjusted to the first reality, you know, And this

756
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: is this gradual process over.

757
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: Time, the fallacy had sunken costs. Yeah, that's also a

758
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: very big aspect of it.

759
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Eventually it got to the point where she's

760
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: like meddling with everyone's like personal lives, family lives, and

761
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 3: financial lives.

762
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: Did you get lives?

763
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: Sex lives? Only people?

764
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: They couldn't be gay, right they she didn't She wanted

765
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: gay men to marry women.

766
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: She did. Yeah, there was a lot of this. She

767
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: believed in, you know, gay conversion, which of course does

768
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: not exist right. But then and now, there are a

769
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: lot of men and women who are gay. You know,

770
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: they can't quite accept that about themselves, and that's very

771
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: understandable in a society like ours. When those people came

772
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: kind of like people like that who had ambivalence about

773
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: their lives, she would say, oh no, no, you can

774
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: straighten out. So and she married off, you know, a

775
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: gay man to her daughter. She had no problem doing that.

776
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: And there was one man who was married off for

777
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: to at least two different women. You know, I'm aware

778
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: of at least four marriages like that.

779
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 3: Do you think that she believed she was doing something good?

780
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's very She said she had no regrets. She

781
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: had no regrets. Really, I mean, well, yeah.

782
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 3: It really reeks of teal Swan to me in a

783
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: lot of ways, because I think that teal Swan is.

784
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: My impression of her is that she is do you

785
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 3: know who she is?

786
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: I've heard the name, but she's like.

787
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 3: A social media guru who claims that she has psychic powers.

788
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 3: And even though there was a whole podcast about her.

789
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 3: You know, one of her followers she advised killed herself. Yeah,

790
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: but even though she was sort of exposed, she's still

791
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: like had these resurgence on TikTok where she's like kind

792
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: of in this group of so help people and people

793
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: take her advice seriously. But we went to one of

794
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 3: her We went to one of her like workshops. She

795
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 3: would like use her psychic powers in quotation marks to

796
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: select people from the audience, bring them on stage, and

797
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: then fully tell them what to do with their lives.

798
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: Not like suggestion, but like, this is what you need

799
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: to do, including someone who had just gotten out of

800
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 3: a cult themselves and was looking for guidance, and she

801
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 3: was just basically like, this is what you have to do.

802
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 3: And of course she's not qualified, she's not a therapist,

803
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: she's not a medical professional. But I get the sense,

804
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: and I could be wrong, I get the sense that

805
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 3: she doesn't believe that she's malicious like my old prophet actually,

806
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 3: you know, he knew what he was doing was just

807
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 3: to get off on it basically, But for someone like her,

808
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: I really feel like, oh, she's she's doing yeah, yeah,

809
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: just like the power of it.

810
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: She got off, she loved that, she loved the power.

811
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: That's probably both right, But I guess I wonder about that.

812
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: It's a good question. I owe to think about it

813
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: some more. I might. But she was mostly driven by

814
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: money and power, with a certain kind of gratification, power

815
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: controlling people's lives, and a particular kind of person. You know,

816
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: successful people and you know people who were in vulnerable spots.

817
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 3: The money point is a really important one because most

818
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,479
Speaker 3: of the people in one of this group are successful. Yeah.

819
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: I mean it was like, you know a lot of

820
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: business owners, small owner owners, you know Wall Street people.

821
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: You know, there were several lawyers, there's a few doctors,

822
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: but you know, we were the poor ones. I mean,

823
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 1: there was an heiress, there was a couple of heiresses there.

824
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: There were some rich people there, and there were some

825
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: people who weren't. But she really was very good at

826
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: getting some of these people to give her fortunes. And

827
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: just you know, the monthly numbers added up to about

828
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: a million in cash every year. Wow.

829
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: And this is the early nineties, right early nineties, million

830
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: throughout throughout.

831
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: I don't know how much they make now, but it's

832
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: a lot, and it's all cash cash. Wow. And she

833
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: had an extensive real estate thing. I mean, all this

834
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: stuff I found out after I left. I didn't investigate

835
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: any of it while I was there.

836
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 4: She would also have people commit tax fraud.

837
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

838
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: Yeah? Again, yeah, that's at the end of the book.

839
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: I explained because the reason I explained at the end

840
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: is because I didn't know about it. But she had

841
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: this whole, very elaborate money laundering scheme, which you know,

842
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: was like a drug dealer or the mafia would do.

843
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: Involved the real estate and piles of cash and bags

844
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 1: of cash, you know, being shipped around in the middle

845
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: of the night in Manhattan. It was wow. You know,

846
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: that's as exciting.

847
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: She's especially fascinating because it's normally men who are doing this,

848
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: I know, I know, especially that like level of lavish

849
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 3: taking people's money.

850
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 4: You said that there was something sexual in this for her.

851
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: What was that?

852
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you said getting off on it. She

853
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: got off on things in a sexual way by controlling people,

854
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: watching people suffer. She was sadistic. She liked to humiliate

855
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: people to a pulp and she got off on it

856
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: and it made her feel better. She would do that

857
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: to very loyal people also, and berate them and people

858
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: who were considered the leaders in the group above us,

859
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: you know, the rank and file. When she dug into them,

860
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: you could just tell she got off on it. And

861
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, she may have had been having sex with

862
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: some of the people there. She did have a husband

863
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: who was a predator in the group, and I think

864
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: some of the other leaders were as well. There's so

865
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: much we don't know yet still about this group. There's

866
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: so much we don't know.

867
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm going to be very curious to see

868
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: everything that comes out. I was shocked that she only

869
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 3: died last year.

870
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, she died last year. She bequeath her interest in

871
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: the company to have an LLC that runs the company,

872
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: and it runs the cult, and it's extremely secretive. Nobody,

873
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: even if you're in the group, you don't know what

874
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: it's called. They called Study. Now they disavow any knowledge

875
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: of Sharon, even if anybody would know. And they call

876
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: themselves the Study, like I said, And they are actively

877
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: recruiting people, and they have an upstate farm where they

878
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: send people to work on weekends and they're getting like that.

879
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 3: They're doing like manual labor.

880
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, manual labor. People pay for the privilege to

881
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: do manual labor and they still collecting cash. There have

882
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: been a number of people who've gotten out of the

883
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: group since my book came out, and the publicity about

884
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: it is a lot of publicity about it in the

885
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: city and the Post particularly loves cults and they're running

886
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: with it. And it's great because people are seeing it

887
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: and are getting out and you know, that's good. We

888
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: want that.

889
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: Well, can you tell us how, how and when you yourself

890
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 3: be and to doubt, like, what were the red.

891
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 4: Lacking you're twenty three? That was different than you're twenty two.

892
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: Right, I mean the red flags had been going on

893
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: for a while. I think halfway through the group of

894
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: my twenty three years there, I realized, you know, this

895
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: was not so good. But I tried to make the

896
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: best of it because you know, I had a marriage

897
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: with somebody in the group. I didn't want to lose

898
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: that marriage because I knew if I left that would

899
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: have meant that the marriage would be over. Also, I

900
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: had business ties there. But once my marriage was over

901
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: on its own, there were other just shocking things with

902
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: Sharon that she had done to me and to others

903
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: that just led me to a place where I was

904
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: basically having a nervous breakdown, and I just met a

905
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: woman who was like that stranger on the airplane kind

906
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: of thing, you know, or you tell your whole life too.

907
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: I did and told her about this. I'd never told

908
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: her anybody about the cult. And once I sort of

909
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: let it out, it became clear, you know, that this

910
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: was not a good place, and I got out.

911
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 3: Wow, that's so cool. It's amazing, just the power of

912
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: like verbalizing something that's been living in your body, like

913
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: just hearing it out loud, or even just journaling, yeah, like,

914
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 3: oh this is bad.

915
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: Actually, were you literally on an airplane or where was

916
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: this woman?

917
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: She was a flight attendant. We flew back from Seattle

918
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: to New York, and I immediately fell in love with

919
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: her saw on the plane. We kept in touch and

920
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: then we got together and we went to the beach

921
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,240
Speaker 1: and we just it was in the winter, and we talked,

922
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: you know, we talked, and we had a very nice,

923
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: it was short, but very sweet and very profound relationship,

924
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: and I keep in touch with her from time to time.

925
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: She also when I met her, she said that I

926
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: should write a book about it.

927
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 3: Wow, what an important relationship. What an important transition in

928
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 3: your life.

929
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really nice. Yeah, most happened. You know

930
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 1: those things can happen.

931
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 3: Power speaking, the power of connection with another person who's

932
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 3: not a part of the thing, Like they're so powerful.

933
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 3: When you left, I mean, was it like a thing?

934
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: Was there retaliation? Like what was that experience?

935
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: Like? Well, yes, there was retaliation in the sense that

936
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: all my ties with my business were over and I

937
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: lost all of my income. And you know what they

938
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: said would happen to me happened to me. You know,

939
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: you'd be cut off, you'd be cast out, and mentally,

940
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: I was a wreck because I thought I lost everything.

941
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: I had no self dignity or ability to discern anything

942
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: for myself. I mean I was fifty two. It was

943
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: like a you know, worse than a I mean an

944
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: infant had more self dignity than I did. It was

945
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: really a mess. And I had a family, a son.

946
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't like they came after me so much as

947
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: this is I was like infected with this like awful disease. Yeah,

948
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: I had like this, my mind was a wreck. But

949
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: in terms of them coming after me, no, it's been

950
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: the other way around. I've been you know, going after

951
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 1: them in the sense of telling the story that's going

952
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: after them, that reveals the dark secrets, and that's the

953
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: best disinfectant totally.

954
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 3: Can you describe how you have healed?

955
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I will say this that both of you

956
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: you could probably recruit me to whatever you have because

957
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: you both listen so intently and seem I mean, you've

958
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of people about cults, but I

959
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: feel like I was in the best cult of all time.

960
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: You're making me feel that way. So I just want

961
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: to say thank you.

962
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: Well if you sign up for our month long course.

963
00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: You said something about like some things started to unlock you.

964
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: You said, like I got into therapy and some things

965
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: got unlocked, and I want things in my own life

966
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 2: to be unlocked. I just feel like you are such

967
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: an amazing person of healing and I still have stuff

968
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 2: that I want to do.

969
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: You know, you want to join my cl I want

970
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 3: to join your call?

971
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: Is I want to join your call because it feels

972
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: like you've done a lot of work, and really it does.

973
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 3: You do seem like you have a really healthy handle

974
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 3: on everything now, So is that true or is that

975
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 3: is that just a person?

976
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: It's just a bush? I loved a lot from those

977
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: years in the CULTI pitched. I have a great pitch. Now. Yeah,

978
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I learned. I did a lot

979
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: of therapy with a really great therapist who knew exactly

980
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: and was just a right fit, who knew exactly what

981
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: I needed, which was a lot of space and a

982
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: lot of learning how to trust myself and no matter

983
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: what it was, to just really trust my impulses, my instincts,

984
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 1: and to not being judgmental and too well. His big

985
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: word was gentle and empathetic to myself. Just you know,

986
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of things. I talk about a lot of

987
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: these things in the book about you know, the key things.

988
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: I could probably write more about it. And you know,

989
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: I'm just happier than I've ever been. And you know,

990
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: life is filled of crazy bad things will happen, you know,

991
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: unexpected things will happen all the time, and it's just

992
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: that's the facts, you know, and so it's really just

993
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: a matter of addressing all those things in a rational,

994
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: calm way if you can, and if you can't, that's

995
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: that's okay too. Well.

996
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: Bad things don't happen to Lola and I because our

997
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: OCD compulsions keep us safe.

998
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 3: Oh good, it's true. Yeah, as long as I obsessively

999
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 3: check in to make sure I'm not going crazy, I

1000
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 3: don't go crazy, be up and off.

1001
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 4: I've checked ninety times.

1002
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: Well I have. Is that part of when I joined

1003
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: your cult is like an OCD element to it.

1004
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 4: There's a little bit of that, Yeah, yeah, a little bit. No,

1005
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 4: we're we're we're healing it.

1006
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to let me start rearranging things.

1007
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 3: Wow, you are awesome. Thank you so much for talking

1008
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 3: to us. Is there anything that you feel like you

1009
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 3: want to add or communicate to listeners?

1010
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: Well, your listeners are members of people who were in cults.

1011
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: Are no people who are a lot of survivors.

1012
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 3: It's we have survivors and we just have interested listeners.

1013
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, interested listeners. Well, I'll say to anyone, I mean

1014
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: everyone's been in uh you know, survivors, and you know

1015
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: everyone's had some trauma in their life and some difficult

1016
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: situations or impossible relationships that they're in and or you know,

1017
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: impossible things. It's just it's really tough. Yeah, it's a

1018
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: tough thing, and there is a human in spirit of resilience,

1019
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: and one can have freedom in if nowhere else in

1020
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: your mind. And you know, there's also lots of places

1021
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: to get help. Like New York has this wellness line.

1022
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: I think it's NYC Wellness or something like that. But

1023
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: there are places you can get free. Probably in California too,

1024
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: there's places to get help.

1025
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

1026
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important for people to get professional mental health help.

1027
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: I do not believe in the self. You gotta be,

1028
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: you gotta get help. That's my feeling I agree with,

1029
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of it out there. Yeah.

1030
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 3: I also just want to point out that, like, your

1031
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: story is especially inspiring because I think, you know, for

1032
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 3: most of us, we're in a cult for like maybe

1033
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 3: a through our childhood or like a few years. And

1034
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 3: you were a member for twenty three years and you

1035
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 3: still got out in your fifties and you're thriving even

1036
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 3: after that long. I just think that's like incredibly impressive.

1037
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 3: Look at you. Yeah, they had you too.

1038
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: They had you with the business, with the wife, they

1039
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: had you tight and yeah still.

1040
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, they had me both. They had me

1041
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: with everything, every inch of me.

1042
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1043
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: But you know, I've been getting this. I asked a

1044
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: question about like what got me out? It was just

1045
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: it's a lot. There's a lot. I really tried to

1046
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: write about all of the nuanced and then write the

1047
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: facts and hopefully people control their own inferences and then

1048
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, illuminate me and you know, illuminate themselves. I

1049
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: really want that, you know, that would be a great gift.

1050
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 4: Well, we ordered the book.

1051
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 2: It's like one half yummy New York scene other half

1052
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 2: huge realizations and it's delicious.

1053
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 3: So yeah, yummy, yummy and delicious.

1054
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 4: I don't know, I love I love that.

1055
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 3: Kind of it's a snack. Yeah, Manhattan could Story my

1056
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 3: unbelievable true story of sex crimes, chaos and survival. Everybody

1057
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 3: go buy it. Are you on social media at all?

1058
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? I'm on Instagram Official Spencer Schneider, and I have

1059
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: a blog, which you know is somewhat interesting cult Revolt.

1060
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: Love that name.

1061
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: And then it's more than interesting, it's great what am

1062
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 1: I talking about? And then that's pretty much the best way.

1063
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: And then I have my own website, Spencer hyphen Schneider

1064
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: dot com.

1065
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 3: Awesome, thank you so much for talking to us. This

1066
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 3: has been really wonderful. Yes, kay, Well he's amazing. Love him. Megan,

1067
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 3: what do you think would you join school.

1068
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:31,280
Speaker 2: Uh huh, yeah, I mean it does sound horrifically boring.

1069
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: The actual classes part of it and the like folding

1070
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: chairs would be a little triggering for me because that's

1071
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 2: how I was raised and I wasn't an acting class

1072
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 2: that was led by a narcissist that we're actually going

1073
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 2: to interview a girl from soon that I did leave,

1074
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: and it was kind of similar, but the like severe

1075
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: secrecy and the like, I don't know, that would have

1076
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 2: been a little more intriguing to me.

1077
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, same. I mean I already said this

1078
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 3: in the episode, so I don't need to say it again,

1079
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 3: But I fucking love this shit. Yeah you would love this.

1080
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,479
Speaker 3: I'm on board. I'm still scared you might honestly saying, well,

1081
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 3: I might join Spencer's cold because he just is super

1082
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 3: cool and seems incredibly wise. But you know, it remains

1083
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 3: to be seen.

1084
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 4: Yeah either one.

1085
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, Well, that's it done.

1086
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 1: Good.

1087
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for spending another week with us.

1088
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 4: We can't wait to see you here next time.

1089
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 2: Always remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flex.

1090
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me. Bye b