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Speaker 1: I didn't see it coming at all. Like I did.

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Speaker 2: I thought that Trump was a joke. When he came

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Speaker 2: down that escalator, I thought the whole thing was a farce.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Brian Derek joining us on this episode of

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Speaker 3: the Warning Podcast. We're going to have a discussion about

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Speaker 3: gen Z, about the millennials, and about the future of

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Speaker 3: American politics from the perspective of somebody who's thirty years old,

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Speaker 3: highly engaged, and is an entrepreneur in the political space,

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Speaker 3: trying to help you find the candidates that matter most

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Speaker 3: to you to the moment, who can win and affect change.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you so much for having me on. I'm

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Speaker 2: excited to be here, and just.

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Speaker 3: To put a pin in this for the listeners. You're

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Speaker 3: a little guy at this juncture. You're ten years old

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and three, coming of age consciousness. This

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Speaker 3: is the defining event. So where do you get the

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Speaker 3: political spark from? Where? Where are you like, what's going on?

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Speaker 3: What grade are you in? Is it a teacher, is

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Speaker 3: it a book? Is it an event? What kind of

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Speaker 3: pulls you into my My interest is in how the

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Speaker 3: society is organized, how it runs itself, how power is distributed,

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Speaker 3: within it. When when does that kind of hmmm, I like.

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Speaker 1: This spark in you that actually came much later for me.

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Speaker 2: I think I had a natural curiosity for it, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't until college that I attended Ohio State, the

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Speaker 2: Ohio State University, and I went to school there for

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Speaker 2: the hard sciences. I was like a microbiology major, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to go to med school.

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Speaker 1: That was my plan, and I loved it, and I

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Speaker 1: still love science.

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Speaker 2: But I think that it was at university and what

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Speaker 2: was happening in the country at the time that really

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Speaker 2: opened my eyes to the power of organizing, of civic

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Speaker 2: engagement and the ability that I felt like I had

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Speaker 2: to bring people into the fold and build sort of

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Speaker 2: relationships and people powered movements. I got really involved with

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Speaker 2: a few student organizations, including my dance marathon, just like

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Speaker 2: a twenty four hour fundraiser dance pathon, and we raised

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Speaker 2: over a million dollars in a year for Children's Hospital

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Speaker 2: in Columbus, Ohio, and that made me feel so empowered.

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Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, I really can make a difference

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Speaker 2: in these kids and families lives who are going through

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Speaker 2: this really tumultuous things as their kids are diagnosed with cancer,

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Speaker 2: and that opened my eyes to a whole different kind

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Speaker 2: of impact, and so I actually pivoted from wanting to

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you're young, and you're idealistic, like to

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Speaker 2: be the one to cure cancer, to instead work on

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Speaker 2: the systems that would deliver, like the cure itself, for

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Speaker 2: the healthcare, and the system that would support the people

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Speaker 2: who needed that kind of help. And so it was

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Speaker 2: it was out of High State that I pivoted into

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Speaker 2: public affairs with a focus on civic engagement and nonprofit management.

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Speaker 2: And then I went on to work in the nonprofit

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Speaker 2: space and didn't start working full time in politics until

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Speaker 2: after Donald Trump was elected.

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Speaker 3: And talk about that Trump race. Donald Trump is the

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Speaker 3: candidate that all, all of a sudden is the most

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Speaker 3: famous person in the race. He's come down the escalator

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Speaker 3: at Trump Tower. When is the moment that he has

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Speaker 3: your full attention? Is it at that moment? Is it later?

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Speaker 3: Is it a joke at first? Is it a growing awareness?

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Speaker 3: Is it holy shit at some point on the space

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Speaker 3: time continuum a year later, as he's standing like a

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Speaker 3: political colossus. Talk about old Trump's entry and then how

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Speaker 3: how it pulls you in It shapes what it is

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Speaker 3: you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I will be fully of transparent and say I didn't

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Speaker 2: see it coming at all, Like I did. I thought

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Speaker 2: that Trump was a joke when he came down that escalator.

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Speaker 2: I thought the whole thing as a farce, really, And

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Speaker 2: it wasn't until the primaries started I think that I

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Speaker 2: started to believe it was possible.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to just for the just for the

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Speaker 3: many warning viewers who would not have done well as

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Speaker 3: microbiology students and future and future doctors. I just because

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Speaker 3: I think this is important. You're so, it's two thy

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Speaker 3: twenty four two, so we're nice, you're twenty, you're twenty one,

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Speaker 3: you're twenty one when he comes down the escalator, okay,

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Speaker 3: and your assessment at at twenty one, right, you're you're

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Speaker 3: a junior senior in college.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my assessment was no way. My assessment was like,

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Speaker 2: there's no way this is possible. I just don't see

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Speaker 2: enough people buying into this vision of what America is,

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Speaker 2: what America should be, that this can have legs, that

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Speaker 2: he can really go the distance. And I still believe

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Speaker 2: that for the most part. On election Day in twenty

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Speaker 2: sixteen as well. I mean, I was involved again. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't working full time at the time. I was working

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Speaker 2: for LAMBA Legal, an LGBT civil rights organization, and I

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Speaker 2: was deeply involved in the social justice space, but not

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Speaker 2: as heavily in politics. And I woke up on November seventh,

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Speaker 2: like a lot of America in shock, and that was

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Speaker 2: something that inspired a lot of changes in me.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you a question. At that moment in time,

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Speaker 3: you are feeling what towards President Obama right at the

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Speaker 3: end of his eight years at twenty one, I suspect it.

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Speaker 3: It's not hostility at all, soft admiration. And I don't

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Speaker 3: want to put I don't want to put words in

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Speaker 3: your mouth, but you know, he's at the he's at

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Speaker 3: the end of his second term where you're still inspired

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Speaker 3: by him? Or are you like, you know, this is

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Speaker 3: the president of my turning into an adult, Like how

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Speaker 3: do you feel about him? How do you feel about

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Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton? Are you a hyper part you know if

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Speaker 3: someone says something bad about Hillary Clinton? Or are you

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Speaker 3: going to be triggered by it, upset by it? Right?

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Speaker 3: You know, at a social function, out of family function,

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Speaker 3: just kind of like put yourself on a on a

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Speaker 3: on a scale of of of kind of engagement with

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Speaker 3: the dominant figures in the Democratic Party in that year.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I was in high school when Obama won in

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Speaker 2: a wait when when he ran, and I was so enthusiastic.

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Speaker 2: I had a big poster of him on my wall

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, and I was very inspired

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Speaker 2: by him. And I think, like a lot of young

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Speaker 2: people who came into like this huge moment for America

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Speaker 2: electing the first black president, like felt app like, we

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Speaker 2: felt invincible. It felt like the times were changing. And

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Speaker 2: part of that was dampened by just pure partisan gridlock

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Speaker 2: and like knuckle brawling in DC that Obama went through

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Speaker 2: from eight to sixteen, Mitch McConnell having a big role

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Speaker 2: in that, and I think that that softened some of

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Speaker 2: the enthusiasms. So when he was leaving office, I definitely

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Speaker 2: was a fan, definitely supported him, but had maybe felt

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Speaker 2: a little bit disillusioned with the system in a way

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Speaker 2: that I hadn't like four or eight years per I

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Speaker 2: think that Hillary Clinton is fantastic. I think she would

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Speaker 2: have been a great president. I think you'll have a

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Speaker 2: hard time triggering me about any subject, Like I'm always

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Speaker 2: really open to different perspectives. My own family is split politically.

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Speaker 2: I have dinner with people who are two time Trump

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Speaker 2: supporters on a regular basis, and so I do my

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Speaker 2: best to understand different people's perspective. I supported Hillary, I

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Speaker 2: organized for her, but was somebody who felt like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I could have done more, definitely, And then in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty a handful of candidates that I liked. Biden was

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Speaker 2: not at the top of my list. I admit that freely,

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Speaker 2: but I got fully on board when it was time to.

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Speaker 2: And I'm always pushing for usually like the most progressive

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Speaker 2: person who can.

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Speaker 1: Win a specific race. Like that's my general philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Uh. And I'm very pragmatic, so I'm always trying to

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Speaker 2: get someone to nail down what they're willing to do

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Speaker 2: or able to do to make concrete change, rather than

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Speaker 2: just reflect my values back to me.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk about that for a minute. That's in

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting place. You know, I've spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of my career in campaign politics, and I've talked about

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Speaker 3: it as a constant confrontation, if you will, between idealism

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Speaker 3: and cynicism, right pragmatism in national politics. Right is the

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Speaker 3: soft gateway right to cynicism. Right, So I want to

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Speaker 3: ask you right about your company, your vision for it

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Speaker 3: takes explain what you do. But for example, gay marriage,

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Speaker 3: and you talked about your involvement on this as an issue.

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Speaker 3: I was involved in the issue with these ac lu

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Speaker 3: as one of the strategists in the marriage equality campaigns.

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Speaker 3: Came out in favor of marriage equality in a speech

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine. You know, I I you know,

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Speaker 3: I tell my kids right that I mean there were

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Speaker 3: no gay people like growing up in North Plainfield, New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: It would have been like you look back, it's like

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Speaker 3: that's uncle Anthony and his friend m Right. You know

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Speaker 3: I read Anthony is right. It just wasn't. And I

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Speaker 3: just look at this issue as singular right in that

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Speaker 3: in a very period of time, gay marriage became a

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Speaker 3: consensus view in the country, which from the place that

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Speaker 3: I came into the story at, and from the place

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Speaker 3: I came into the story at, is astonishing to me. Right.

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Speaker 3: So you look at that, right, and it fills you

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Speaker 3: with hope right on all manner of other intractable issues.

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Speaker 3: So the one question before you explain what is you do?

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Speaker 3: How do you account for and that balance between pragmatism

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Speaker 3: and righteous necessity. So, for example, Marjorie Taylor Green maybe

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Speaker 3: a person on paper who looks invincible, but she needs

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Speaker 3: to be challenged, right, She needs to be challenged in

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Speaker 3: every election with resources, right until you know, as it

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Speaker 3: says in scripture, the walls come tumbling down, and they

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Speaker 3: will right at some point. So I talk about pragmatism, right,

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Speaker 3: talk about efficiency in politics. Talk about how you see

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Speaker 3: this now as a thirty year old and activist who

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Speaker 3: looks at the system and says, wow, I see an

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Speaker 3: opportunity for disruption here, the capacity to aggregate individuals into

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Speaker 3: a mightier force, directly connecting them to the most important candidates,

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Speaker 3: not just in congressional races, but in house races, mayoral races,

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Speaker 3: races up and down the ballot, in the ninety four

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Speaker 3: thousand elected jurisdictions across the United States. We'll talk about

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Speaker 3: that too, because you know a lot of people I

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Speaker 3: think fred about the looming dictatorship right, with a lot

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Speaker 3: of worry, a lot of hyperbole. I'm one of them too.

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Speaker 3: But we have ninety four thousand elected governments in the

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Speaker 3: United States, and they all at least have three lawyers

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Speaker 3: with them right, like even the small ones.

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Speaker 2: That's very true, and I love the way that you

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Speaker 2: put that. For me and for oath, which we can

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Speaker 2: get into, I think it is about optimizing for and

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Speaker 2: prioritizing outcomes over.

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Speaker 1: Process.

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Speaker 2: And I think that for a lot of people, especially

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Speaker 2: young people in the year twenty twenty four, they are

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Speaker 2: more concerned with how they fight, the way that they fight,

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Speaker 2: how they're perceived to be fighting, versus whether or not

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Speaker 2: they win. And for me, all I care about is

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Speaker 2: that w like you, the way that politics.

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Speaker 3: Works down go inside, explain that. Well, are you talking

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Speaker 3: about so? I spent a couple of weeks ago, I

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Speaker 3: was I spent a couple of hours with one of

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Speaker 3: the very top elected democratic leaders in the country. And

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Speaker 3: the point that that person made was their frustration on

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Speaker 3: fidelity to slogans, to his speech code. That you didn't

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Speaker 3: say defund the police, and therefore you're not pure and

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Speaker 3: therefore is that what you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And to put in another way, like we're talking a

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Speaker 2: lot about virtue signaling, is that people really want their

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Speaker 2: elected or their leaders or people in their movement to

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Speaker 2: say that they agree with them and that they are

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Speaker 2: right on the issue that is at hand more than

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Speaker 2: they want to achieve mutual progress on that issue, especially

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Speaker 2: if that progress is not comprehensive, it does not include

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Speaker 2: every imaginable thing or every imaginable community. And so I

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Speaker 2: feel like what's needed more often is someone who's willing

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Speaker 2: to say I'm not going to get credit for this,

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Speaker 2: or this might make me look bad, or I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to be able to message this the way that

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Speaker 2: you want, but I will vote that way. But I

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Speaker 2: will stand alongside of you. I will support, I will donate,

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Speaker 2: I will whatever that looks like, because we both want

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Speaker 2: the same thing. In the end, we both want the

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Speaker 2: same outcome, and let's focus more on that. I'm gay,

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Speaker 2: and I sometimes give presentations, public public talks to people

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Speaker 2: about what's happening in terms of anti LGBT legislation around

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Speaker 2: the country. And I gave a long presentation pretty recently

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Speaker 2: about all the anti trans legislation going on and talked

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Speaker 2: for like fifteen or twenty minutes presented, and I had

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Speaker 2: someone ask at the end, like why did you say

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Speaker 2: LGBTQ and not LGBTQ, plus like, don't you feel like

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Speaker 2: you're leaving people out and was I wanted to pull

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Speaker 2: my hair out and say, like, that's what you took

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Speaker 2: away from that? Right, Like I'm talking about five hundred

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Speaker 2: anti anti anti LGBT bills that are happening, and like

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Speaker 2: we just want to talk about the plus sign. And

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Speaker 2: so I get it, and I get one wanting to

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Speaker 2: like push for progress in every way.

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Speaker 1: That we can, but that should come.

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Speaker 3: And so how do you answer that? Oh?

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Speaker 2: I said, Oh, I mean, I'm pretty blunt about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, next, like, is that the most important thing

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Speaker 2: for us to be spending our time on right now?

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Speaker 2: Was like the thrust of my response to that is like,

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Speaker 2: let's not let's not debate something that we both agree on,

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Speaker 2: Like why are we looking for reasons to disagree instead

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Speaker 2: of you and I are both aligned on the problem

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Speaker 2: that these bills represent, the harm that they cause, the

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Speaker 2: path to fighting against them. Let's take a step in

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Speaker 2: the right direction instead of debating how to go backwards.

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Speaker 2: And So I find that kind of politicking and those

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Speaker 2: sorts of politics frustrating. And when I talk about being pragmatic,

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Speaker 2: those are the kinds of things that I like to

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Speaker 2: sidestep in favor of what outcomes are we are we

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Speaker 2: trying to achieve? In my view, all political activism has

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Speaker 2: two goals. One is to achieve your goal, whether that

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Speaker 2: is to stop something from happening or to.

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Speaker 1: Affect change via a law or a new policy.

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Speaker 2: If you cannot do that, you're fighting, and you don't

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Speaker 2: have the votes, you cannot block the bill, you cannot

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Speaker 2: get it past.

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Speaker 1: Then the second task at hand is how do we

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Speaker 1: grow the coalition?

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Speaker 2: How do we fight towards goal number one in a

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Speaker 2: way that we grow the number of people who are

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Speaker 2: on our side so that the next time we have

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Speaker 2: that fight, we can win and we have the votes

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Speaker 2: that we need. And so to me, that is how

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Speaker 2: we approach these issues in a more strategic way. And

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Speaker 2: it's less about the credit, the points, the virtue signaling,

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Speaker 2: and it's more about outcomes.

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Speaker 3: When you think though about outcomes, do you recognize, and

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Speaker 3: maybe more importantly, do you think that most people your

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Speaker 3: age recognize that that contestation right of ideas and issues

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Speaker 3: is taking place within the framework of a system that

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Speaker 3: demands respect for a couple of different, fairly inflexible notions.

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Speaker 3: Right at this at this moment in time, Right first off, right,

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Speaker 3: we're all created, equal and dowd bya whatever the fuck

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Speaker 3: you want to call it. Right, certain inalienable rights, right, life, liberty,

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Speaker 3: and the pursuit of happiness, gay, straight, black, white, Asian, Hispanic.

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Speaker 3: Right doesn't matter. Right, we were, We're at that place, right, everybody, everybody,

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Speaker 3: everybody gets to everybody gets to vote. There's a rule

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Speaker 3: of law right that holds we don't have a king,

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Speaker 3: we don't have an emperor. Right that we grant political

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Speaker 3: leaders temporary power for limited periods periods of time, with

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Speaker 3: very very substantial constraints right around the exercise of that

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Speaker 3: of that power. Right, you know, not not flexible things?

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Speaker 3: Do you do you feel like anyone gets this?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: I got it at a core level? Right? Do you

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Speaker 3: got to be able? Right to sit in a room

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Speaker 3: right in part of your coalition and understand the twenty

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Speaker 3: percent of the people in any given room will agree

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Speaker 3: with you on eighty percent of the issues. Right, disagree

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Speaker 3: with you twenty percent of the time, or somebody who

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Speaker 3: may be the lynchpin for a really profoundly important step

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Speaker 3: forward right from the from the vast middle, from the

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Speaker 3: from the vast center, may disagree with you forty nine

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Speaker 3: percent of the time. And that's and that's okay, right,

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Speaker 3: that's that's the way the ball bounces in life. We're

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Speaker 3: not we're not talking about immutable issues of civil rights

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Speaker 3: of human rights, right, We're talking about right on spending,

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Speaker 3: on taxation, on you know, should we have twelve submarines

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Speaker 3: or fourteen type of questions. Do people get that?

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Speaker 2: I think far fewer people get that and embody that

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Speaker 2: now than did ten years.

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Speaker 1: Ago or ten years before that.

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Speaker 3: Well, why do you think that?

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Speaker 2: Is?

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Speaker 1: One reason, I would say is.

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Speaker 2: Algorithms that govern how we think in a way that

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Speaker 2: we don't often acknowledge.

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Speaker 1: But for again, i'll speak for like for not for

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Speaker 1: all young people.

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Speaker 2: But if you are a young person today, you spend

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Speaker 2: up to eight hours of your day every day on

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Speaker 2: social media, mostly consuming video content, and that has created

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Speaker 2: an entirely new, massive part of the economy that didn't

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Speaker 2: exist ten years ago. And for I mean, look at

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Speaker 2: the number of young people who want to be content

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Speaker 2: creators or influencers.

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Speaker 1: It's huge, like.

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Speaker 2: Majorities majorities of young people saying that they would do

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Speaker 2: that if it was an option available to them. And

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Speaker 2: the incentive structure in those spaces, particularly when it comes

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Speaker 2: to political communications, any kind of social commentary is to

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Speaker 2: have something new and different to say and to drive

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Speaker 2: a reaction that is anger, fear, outrage, because that is

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Speaker 2: what algorithms optimize for, and so that might feel disconnected.

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Speaker 2: But when you have so many young people spending so

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Speaker 2: much time consuming content that is being driven by that

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Speaker 2: incentive system, they are really strongly steered away from sort

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Speaker 2: of like the common sense, common ground sort of goals

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Speaker 2: and more and more to the outsides, where the people

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Speaker 2: that they're following and getting information from and perspective from

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Speaker 2: are looking to have the most extreme take on a topic.

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Speaker 2: That makes people much less willing to sit down next

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Speaker 2: to someone that they that they don't agree with because

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Speaker 2: they have been trained to sort of like that outrage

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Speaker 2: reaction is Pavlovian.

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Speaker 1: Like it is really easy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you asked me the question earlier as a joke,

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Speaker 2: like about being triggered by like someone critiquing Hillary Clinton,

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Speaker 2: And I think that actually cuts right to it, right,

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Speaker 2: is that, like, are people now so easily turned off

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Speaker 2: by the potential benefits of working together because you don't

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Speaker 2: share every imaginable opinion that they have that it's blocking

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Speaker 2: the ability to work together, and I think that we're

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Speaker 2: moving towards a place that the answer for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people is yes. And that's especially online, something that

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Speaker 2: I try to actively work against. I've been vocal in

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Speaker 2: my qualified support of Joe Manchin people. He's like a

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Speaker 2: good example of this right. People hate Joe Manchin. Democrats

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Speaker 2: in particular hate Joe Manchin. Were furious at him for

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Speaker 2: the bills that he blocked in twenty twenty one in particular,

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Speaker 2: and as the Biden administration took over, and my perspective

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Speaker 2: was very much not what is he blocking you from achieving?

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Speaker 2: But what are we going to get fast because we

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Speaker 2: have Joe Manchin's seat in the Senate.

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Speaker 1: And the answer was a lot.

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Speaker 2: It was the Infrastructure Bill, and Inflation Reduction Act, climate legislation,

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Speaker 2: the Respect for Marriage Act, like the list goes on,

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Speaker 2: and the Packed Act.

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Speaker 1: The list goes on.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't have had any of those things if it

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Speaker 2: were not for Mansion, if it were not for I mean,

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Speaker 2: cinema is her own story. But we should have more

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Speaker 2: of these people, even if they don't agree with us

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Speaker 2: on everything, Even if we don't get everything that we want,

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Speaker 2: we have some of it exclusively because he was there

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Speaker 2: and he did ultimately get across the finish line. He's

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Speaker 2: leaving or losing that seat, and we'll see if those

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Speaker 2: people are happier with probably without the Senate majority.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five, I.

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Speaker 3: Was my daughter is twenty and so she's my oldest

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Speaker 3: and she's sophomore in college and kicktok, right, what's on

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Speaker 3: her feed? It's brutal, yeah, or it's Biden yep, brutal, brutal, brutal. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We relate to the thirty and undercrowd. I mean this

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Speaker 3: is a communication business, right, And I make that point.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: It's like I'm a Jeff fan. They won their last

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Speaker 3: Super Bowl before I was born or I was born

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Speaker 3: in right, But you know, I was like, how would

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Speaker 3: Joe Namath have done in this past super Bowl? Like

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Speaker 3: he wouldn't have done great, right, he would have would

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Speaker 3: have gotten rolled over, can't move. And you know it's

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Speaker 3: a communications business, right, you watch this, you watch this

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Speaker 3: every day. I I thought it with this was a

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Speaker 3: huge mistake. And I like Avenuewsom. I you know, I

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Speaker 3: consider him a friend. When he goes out and he

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Speaker 3: says no, no, he's eighty two. This is the asset. Right,

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Speaker 3: this is this is the wisest man in the land. Right,

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Speaker 3: get on get on board with that. Right. All I

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Speaker 3: can think about is in the Bush campaign, you know

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Speaker 3: four right, is that the campaign being oriented around a

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Speaker 3: fight over whether George Bush is a genius or not? Right,

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Speaker 3: which would not have been which would not have been

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Speaker 3: a successful fight. Right. And so I feel like when

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Speaker 3: I listen to him talk about it this way, he's

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Speaker 3: antagonizing me, right, because I'm not happy with the choice

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Speaker 3: at all. Yet the choice is is crystal clear as

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Speaker 3: any any choice can possibly possibly be. And I think

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Speaker 3: a big element in this electorate is not going to

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Speaker 3: be this like bullshitted happy voter is gonna be the

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Speaker 3: grumpy voter right where you where you're gonna have to

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Speaker 3: This is gonna be hard because the DNC in the

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Speaker 3: White House is there, They're fucking miles from this right now, right,

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Speaker 3: which is the concept of right. Not happy with your

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Speaker 3: decision to do this again, which, by the way, is

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Speaker 3: where eighty six percent of the country is right, this

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Speaker 3: idea that we don't agree on anything like eighty six

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Speaker 3: of us right, the MAGA people that by like everybody

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Speaker 3: agrees on this, right, but this is this is the choice,

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Speaker 3: right that that lays out before us, and it's gonna happen.

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Speaker 3: But I but I think you're gonna have to find

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Speaker 3: a way to reach people who are really indifferent about

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Speaker 3: the importance of the choice in a way that doesn't

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Speaker 3: involve beating them over the head right about the thing

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Speaker 3: that core they don't believe, right, which is a great

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Speaker 3: choice and you should be happy about it, right. Do

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Speaker 3: you do you have a thought on that, how you

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Speaker 3: engage like younger, younger people on it, because it is

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Speaker 3: I get the clips from my from my end, they're

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Speaker 3: not she's gonna vote for him. She will vote right

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Speaker 3: for for President Biden. Not because I'm making her right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, under her own her own volition for a

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Speaker 3: lot for a lot of reasons. But when it comes

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Speaker 3: to the brutality of the mocking and the culture, none

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Speaker 3: of this makes it onto em NBC ever, And I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of people that are in the kind

436
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: of democracy coalition or blind utterly right to what he

437
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: is subjected to in a moment to moment basis, it's brutal.

438
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree, and I think that you're putting it better.

439
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: But that's what I'm trying to drive at with when

440
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: I talk about the incentive structure online is that I

441
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: don't doubt that the people sharing that kind of content

442
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: believe it. I think that they do, but we also

443
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: have to acknowledge that they are strongly incentivized to create

444
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: more and more and more of it when it performs well.

445
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: I start every conversation about Joe Biden with I wish

446
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: I wasn't Joe like this year. I'm very open with that.

447
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: I talk on Instagram a lot about the presidential and

448
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: many other elections, and I'm very open and say, like,

449
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: if I had the power to pick, Joe Biden would

450
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: not be on my top ten list, Like he just wouldn't.

451
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 3: I do like when you look at it the future

452
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: of the party, like who kind of you know? It

453
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: doesn't even have to be someone at the governor or

454
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 3: Senate level, someone you think that's going to be there

455
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 3: in six to eight years.

456
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: It is, though for me it's big gretch. Gretcha Whitmer,

457
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: governor of Michigan, I think would be an amazing choice.

458
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: I think that what she has accomplished there, the issues

459
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: that she prioritized and was able to pass with a

460
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: single year of a cooperative legislature there incredible. I think

461
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: there are other options that would be compelling to me, potentially,

462
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: like Roy Cooper, governor of North Carolina.

463
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting.

464
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: Of course you said Newsom people talk about JB. Pritzker,

465
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: Jared Polis. I think is a really interesting option. So

466
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: I do think that there's a bench. And so when

467
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: people in Biden world say like Biden's the only one

468
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: who can beat Trump, I think that that is not true,

469
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: and I think they know that that's not true. But

470
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: this is the situation that we're in, and we're in

471
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: a situation where we have a choice, as you said,

472
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: and I think that framing it any other way is

473
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: a mistake, Like it's tone deaf. And I do know

474
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: influencers and content creators out there who are like really

475
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: trying to be Biden cheerleaders, which I get, But I

476
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: think that it's a lot more effective to have a

477
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: real conversation.

478
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: And say.

479
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: This is what I wish was true.

480
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: I'm with you, I'm writing shotgun on that opinion. I

481
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: don't think that it's our best option in the country,

482
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: and I think that of the two outcomes that will happen,

483
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: I think that this is the better outcome.

484
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: If if Biden loses this whole action.

485
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: Have you thought about that absolutely? I think about every day.

486
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 3: Do you feel personally vulnerable?

487
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. For a couple of reasons. I

488
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: think that some of the more immediate policy changes are

489
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: less likely to damage me personally. Things like a national

490
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: abortion band, which I think would happen in a second

491
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: Trump administration, really aggressive anti immigrant policies unlikely to impact

492
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: me as an individual person. Him replacing two Supreme Court

493
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: justices for another like forty years potentially will absolutely impact

494
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: me personally.

495
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: And once right, yes, well, actually, actually I would say no.

496
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 2: I think that our next president will likely a point

497
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: at least one Supreme Court justice. We don't know that

498
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: for sure, but Clarence Thomas could definitely step down in

499
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: the next five years.

500
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: And even if Trump, my point is, it's not an attrition, right,

501
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: it's not a worsening of the position.

502
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: It would be it would be locking this into place

503
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 2: for much much longer. We have that, we have the

504
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: potential that we could swing the Supreme Court back to

505
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 2: five four in the next eight seven eight seven, eight

506
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: years like that, that's definitely on the table, right if

507
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: we win in key elections, but it's also the potential

508
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: to go seven to two or or to lock in

509
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: six y three for fifty years, Like that's possible.

510
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: If if the president loses and Trump is president for

511
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 3: four years, then then how do you look at the

512
00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: future of the party as somebody who's an active but

513
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 3: not part of its bureaucratic hierarchy in Washington, DC? Are

514
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: you see? I mean to me right, it it takes

515
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 3: out two candidates, right that no doubt within a week,

516
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 3: someone would be dumb enough to go out and say no,

517
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: it's their turn, right, which would be Newsome and Harris right.

518
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 3: It would be like the bug Zapper right and the

519
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: commercials right. Their political careers are over in a defeat.

520
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: You know, he would have Gavin would have gone all

521
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 3: in on a proposition that you know he oversold from

522
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 3: a credibility perspective. But what comes next? Right after that?

523
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: Are you are you open to an independent candidacy? They

524
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: can be back in extremist an extremist movement. Does the

525
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: does the does it change your view of the Democratic

526
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 3: Party institutionally? I mean, I think one of the most

527
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: underdiscussed is she's in the country, is if you have

528
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: two political parties and one of the two political parties

529
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: is losing right to the deranged, conspiracy driven party and

530
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: open coalition with nazis right, that time to time to

531
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: pause and.

532
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: Think, Yeah, I think that we're due for some really

533
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: serious transformation, whether or not Trump wins. Honestly, I think

534
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: that young people are disillusioned with more than just the

535
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: choice of Biden or Trump, and we're kind of in

536
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: a situation where, whether you're on the left or the right,

537
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: the biggest frustration for a lot of people is that

538
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: it feels like nothing changes. It feels like we get

539
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: big promises that we push and win big elections the

540
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: longer time frame, not just the last four years, but

541
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: longer time frame, and it feels like nothing changes as

542
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: a result. And people are angry about that. And I

543
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: think that what we need to change the system that

544
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: makes that feeling so ubiquitous are bigger structural changes that

545
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: aren't going to be solved by an independent candidate or

546
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: an independent run, but by a longer term, more populist

547
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: demand for democracy reform like people are. And I don't

548
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: think that includes all of it, but I think that

549
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: people are pissed that the Supreme Court are partisans in robes.

550
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 2: I think that people are over the electoral college and

551
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: the way that we are picking our president. I think

552
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: that people are frustrated.

553
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: By the.

554
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 2: Intransigence and the gridlock of that's really being driven and

555
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: by closed primary systems and Jerry manderin that push the

556
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 2: parties further and further to the extremes. Like people are

557
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 2: frustrated with the system itself not delivering the ability even

558
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: the option, to make progress on the things that they

559
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: care about. And so that's what I think is like

560
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: we're due for it, no matter who wins in twenty four.

561
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: Of course, we still have to have a democracy for

562
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: that to happen. And they're I'm sure you share some

563
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: of my views there about like what the risks are

564
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: to our democracy, But that is what is really animating

565
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: me as I think about like the twenty thirties and

566
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: just like longer term, like what do you millennial gen z,

567
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 2: this huge voting block want to see. And it's like

568
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: they want to see a system that works better. Even

569
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: if we disagree on what that system should deliver, they

570
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: want to see it operate.

571
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 3: Do you does anybody your age who's investigate in politics

572
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 3: in the way that you are, right, That is, that

573
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 3: is engaged in it, highly knowledgeable communicating about it. Is

574
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 3: anybody sitting around talking about the debt through a prison.

575
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 3: Holy shit, that the debt service as interest rates rise,

576
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: which was always an inevitability, now is headed towards being

577
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 3: the largest expenditure in the in the federal budget, right,

578
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 3: which is in this has always been viewed right until

579
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 3: until literally the last forty years and arguably the last

580
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 3: twenty four right, because I think it's unfair to pin

581
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 3: it on Bill Clinton, who actually balanced the budget. Right,

582
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 3: But people always understood this, right from George Washington all

583
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: the way through right until we get into the twenty

584
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 3: first century. This is a moral issue, right. This is

585
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 3: stealing right from people who weren't born yet in restricting

586
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: opportunities on investment, which I think, at the core right

587
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 3: is part of what so many people are pissed off about. Right.

588
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: Does anyone ever talk about that as an issue?

589
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: Short answer I'll say is no.

590
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: Sadly, I really don't think that very many young people

591
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: are motivated by the debt as an issue that they

592
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: should vote on or that personally affects them. I do

593
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: think a lot of them have a surprisingly high competency

594
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: and understanding of how the federal government works, but because

595
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: of where that information is coming from, I still think

596
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: it's like quite a cynical understanding of all of that.

597
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: And this doesn't, I think, register with them in the

598
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: top five threats that they hear about on a daily

599
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: basis when we're talking about things like book bands and

600
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: abortion bands and the end of democracy and dictatorships, and

601
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to make the case to someone

602
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 2: who's hearing that narrative to be like the national debt

603
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: is really where you need to put your focus. And

604
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's not important, but I think it's

605
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: a hard sell on social media platforms where people are

606
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: consuming their news and forming their opinions.

607
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 3: Last thing I want to ask you is, then I

608
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: want to ask you to just talk about your company

609
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: and what it does and where people can find it

610
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 3: to close out. But what do you think right as

611
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: we sit here right now, when you look at what

612
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 3: is the thing you have the greatest fear about when

613
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: you look out into to the future, what do you

614
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 3: think think the great threat facing the facing the nations

615
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 3: right now that you're that you're most worried about.

616
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: We've hit on it here, but I will say apathy,

617
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 2: I think that we do have. We have not put

618
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: forth a workable solution to the growing disengagement from our

619
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 2: political system that allows something like a authoritarian figure to

620
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: commandeer our our democracy. That is only possible when people

621
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: become so cynical and so apathetic that they don't step

622
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: up to prevent it, or even worse like embrace it

623
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: because it feels like change, and it feels like a

624
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: solution to what they see as the problem, which we're

625
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: also seen. And so that is what I spend a

626
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of my time focused on, is trying to

627
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: empower people, trying to give people the ability to cultivate

628
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: hope in a time and on platforms that are designed

629
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 2: to kill that hope. And look, I think telling people

630
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: where to look for it and how to motivate themselves

631
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: to stay engaged when it's easier to tune out.

632
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 3: Tell us about the company, this a really interesting concept

633
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 3: and idea, and so lay it out where people can enter,

634
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 3: find it, engage with it. Ole deal. Yeah.

635
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: We founded oath like Oath of Office back in twenty

636
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 2: twenty two as a side project me and my longtime

637
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: friend Taylor, and the goal was to help people find

638
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: the election, particularly state and local elections that would be

639
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: most impactful on the issues they cared about. We built

640
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: it ourselves popsicle sticks and glue in twenty twenty two,

641
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 2: and essentially people could select reproductive rights or Arizona or

642
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: elect more women like, whatever their interest was that they

643
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: wanted to optimize for, and we did the research to

644
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: surface candidates that would be most instrumental in achieving that goal.

645
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: We had so much success, we had ten thousand people

646
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: use the platform. It's free to use at oath top Vote.

647
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: Ten thousand people used it in five months, gave over

648
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: two million dollars to these candidates that we decided to

649
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: quit our jobs and work on this full time and

650
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 2: provide people a tool to really maximize their impact in

651
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 2: the elections that mattered most, especially below the presidency. And

652
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 2: so if you want to get involved and you don't

653
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: know where to start, Oath is a great tool to

654
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: do that, whether you have five dollars to give or

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Speaker 2: you have fifty thousand dollars to give, like we work

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00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: with everyone from grassroots donors to Sam Altman and you

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00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: can get started atooth dot vote. And we don't take

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00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: a cut through of any donations to the platform. We

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00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: aren't paid by candidates or parties. We are just here

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00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 2: as a resource for activists and donors.

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Speaker 3: And it's a really important point. This is not a grift.

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00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: They are not sucking your donation into the hoover system

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00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: of the Trump industrial complex. This is a vessel by

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Speaker 3: which your donations can reach the places that you want

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00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 3: to get them to achieve the outcomes that you care about.

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Speaker 3: And so I really encourage you to check out both

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Speaker 3: appreciate Brian Derek with us today, a great conversation and

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Speaker 3: as everybody can tell, a very very smart guy. Thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for your time, and good luck to

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00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 3: you out there. Hank tough and keep fighting on. Thank

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Speaker 3: you for listening to my political commentary. If you like

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00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 3: what you heard today, please also consider subscribing to The

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00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 3: Warning Daily newsletter on substack