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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the show where we talk

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Speaker 2: to the Internet's characters of the day from time gone

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Speaker 2: by to see what their moment says about the Internet

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Speaker 2: and about us. My name's Jamie Loftis, and everyone is

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Speaker 2: always shocked to learn that I am actually six feet tall,

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Speaker 2: which is unfortunate to admit here, but I think it

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Speaker 2: is because my personality scans a hard five to six.

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Speaker 2: But I use it to my advantage. It's how I

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Speaker 2: get people to tell me so many secrets. And today

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Speaker 2: we are continuing our discussion of the Curvy Wife saga

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Speaker 2: of twenty seventeen. Now, if you haven't listened to part

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Speaker 2: one of this episode and aren't familiar with the story,

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Speaker 2: I would say go back.

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Speaker 3: You gotta go back.

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Speaker 2: This episode isn't going to make a hell of a

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Speaker 2: lot of sense without at least the context from the

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Speaker 2: first part of the series. Last week, I recapped the

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Speaker 2: story of I Love My Curvy Wife in detail and

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Speaker 2: spoke to Curvywife Guy himself, Robbie Tripp. So again, if

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Speaker 2: you haven't heard any part of the first episode, it

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Speaker 2: would make more sense to just go back. But for

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Speaker 2: those returning, you already know that In the summer of

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, a Utah man named Robbie Tripp posted a

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Speaker 2: photo of himself and his wife, his.

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Speaker 3: Wife Sarah Trip, at the beach.

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Speaker 2: Sarah, at the time was an influencer of in betweeners,

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Speaker 2: or as she clarified, people who wore sizes that were

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Speaker 2: between extremely thin models presented in the media and the

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Speaker 2: plus size section, and this post was heard around the world.

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Speaker 4: I love this woman and her curvy body. As a teenager,

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Speaker 4: I was often teased by my friends for my attraction

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Speaker 4: to girls on the thicker side.

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Speaker 2: It keeps going from there again. You can listen to

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Speaker 2: part one and the curvy wife post went through what

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Speaker 2: listeners of this show will now recognize as a pretty

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Speaker 2: typical main character experience. Step one, the post goes viral.

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Speaker 2: Step two, it gets a lot of positive attention. Step

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Speaker 2: three a significant wave of backlash and negative attention. Step

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Speaker 2: four optional but common, the surfacing of old offensive posts

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Speaker 2: from the main character. Step five, the public apology and

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Speaker 2: disavowal of said posts, and ultimately what they do to

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Speaker 2: maintain and build on this notoriety. And this all depends

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Speaker 2: on who the main character is and whether they have

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Speaker 2: aspirations to stick around. Some people just want to return

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Speaker 2: to their lives. Think thirty to fifty Faral Hogs Guy,

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Speaker 2: Think Coffee Wife. But others like Robbie and Sarah already

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Speaker 2: had big ambitions in the influencing space after the Curvy

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Speaker 2: Wife post. Sarah Tripp continued to build her fashion and

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Speaker 2: lifestyle commentary brand under the Sassy Red Lipstick banner and

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Speaker 2: launched a series of bathing suit line collaborations. Meanwhile, Kurveywife

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Speaker 2: husband Robbie Tripp became a rapper who just released the

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Speaker 2: song hot Wife. And by the way, after part one,

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Speaker 2: a bunch of you commented, does he know what hot

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Speaker 2: wife means? And then I had to look it up

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Speaker 2: and now I know what it means and I resent

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Speaker 2: you all for sharing that with me. Airhorn, Please, It's

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Speaker 2: undeniable that there were elements of this story that really

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Speaker 2: had staying power. People were talking about the curvy Wife

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Speaker 2: post for months and years after the original post, and

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Speaker 2: the phrase I love my curvy wife has more or

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Speaker 2: less entered the permanent lexicon of people who were online

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Speaker 2: and engaged with the story at the time. And the

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Speaker 2: reason it's still around is because during its original circulation.

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Speaker 2: This story, intentionally or not, touched a lot of nerves, including,

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Speaker 2: but not limited to, how men can talk about and

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Speaker 2: objectify women, the idea perpetuated by the media that one

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Speaker 2: should be praised for being attracted to fat people, how

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Speaker 2: fat or curvy women are portrayed by the media, the

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Speaker 2: terms curvy or fat and what that meant to the

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Speaker 2: person that was saying or receiving them, and the wide

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Speaker 2: range of feelings on how those terms are used personally

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Speaker 2: and politically, and quite frankly, a very specific strain of

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Speaker 2: millennial cringe. And I'll be honest, I did not love

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Speaker 2: the Curvy Wife post when it came out or now,

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Speaker 2: but I was glad to have the opportunity to talk

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Speaker 2: with Robbie Tripp about his thinking behind posting it in

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Speaker 2: the first place, because it's my job to give main

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Speaker 2: characters their chance to speak on their fifteen minutes of

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Speaker 2: fame and reflect. It's just that our conversation didn't really

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Speaker 2: change my mind. In our interview, Robbie took repeated jabs

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Speaker 2: at white, female, millennial snarky bloggers in New York, which

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Speaker 2: I personally feels a lot of qualifiers added to dress

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Speaker 2: up the fact that he seemed upset at any woman

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Speaker 2: or really any person who was frustrated by his post

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Speaker 2: and said something about it. And again, plenty of people

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Speaker 2: took no issue at the post. Many felt empowered by it.

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Speaker 2: I've heard from a few people to this effect, and

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Speaker 2: I don't mean to negate that viewpoint, but disliking the

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Speaker 2: Curvywife post had nothing to do with being anti man

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Speaker 2: or being a specific type of person. I looked back on,

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Speaker 2: the backlash was coming from a pretty diverse group of

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Speaker 2: very online people. So yeah, make of that what you will,

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Speaker 2: and let's move on, because I think there's a more

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Speaker 2: interesting angle to discuss the Curvy wife moment from this week.

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Speaker 2: And regardless of my feelings, Robbie and Sarah love each other.

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Speaker 2: They recently celebrated ten years of marriage, and their marriage

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Speaker 2: is honestly not something I'm interested in dissecting, no matter

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Speaker 2: how many Instagram comments I get about it. Lest I

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Speaker 2: be characterized as a white millennial snark blogger from New York,

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Speaker 2: which is only forty percent true. I want to talk

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Speaker 2: in this episode about why the Curvy wife post really

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Speaker 2: struck a chord during this backlash, and how that connects

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Speaker 2: to how we talk about other people's bodies, and fat

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Speaker 2: and curvy bodies specifically, because even if I understand that

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Speaker 2: Sarah Tripp does not mind that her husband made this

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Speaker 2: post about her, I still cannot find a read of

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Speaker 2: this post that doesn't feel centered around Robbie's feelings and

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Speaker 2: comes off as condescending to the quote unquote her women

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Speaker 2: he is addressing in the post. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: people felt the same way. Body positivity and fat liberation

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Speaker 2: movements had been going on for decades at the time

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Speaker 2: of this post, but had in many activist opinion been

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Speaker 2: co opted and deep politicized by mainstream culture in a

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Speaker 2: way to either sell you things or tacitly make people

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Speaker 2: feel either bad or confident enough about their bodies to

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Speaker 2: buy something and nothing more. To feel good about your

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Speaker 2: body when you weren't. Finn was a brave act all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, the same way that Robbie saying he

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Speaker 2: loved his wife was treated as commendable and not the

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Speaker 2: bare minimum from a loving spouse. And this was a

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Speaker 2: narrative that was really pushed by media outlets in the

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Speaker 2: early days of this story, and not much is outside

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Speaker 2: of Robbie's control. Even the term body positivity put pressure

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Speaker 2: on people to feel good about their bodies, to demonstrate

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Speaker 2: their worth and morality when very few people have a

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Speaker 2: day to day simple relationship with their body. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people talking about body positivity ten years ago are

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Speaker 2: now talking about body neutrality. And so today I want

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Speaker 2: to dig a little deeper, understand this story outside of

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Speaker 2: the realm of Robbie Tripp and talk to body positivity

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Speaker 2: and fat activists to see why after seven years, this

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Speaker 2: story still prompts such a response. Buckle in Curvy Wife

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Speaker 2: guy Robbie Tripp and curvy wife Sarah Trip. Your sixteenth

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Speaker 2: minute continues now, welcome back to sixteenth minute. I thought

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Speaker 2: I was doing a little better emotionally and then I

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Speaker 2: just reread Charlotte's Web and it made me cry for

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Speaker 2: truly three hours. If you haven't read Charlotte's Web recently,

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Speaker 2: it is the most beautiful piece of American writing I've

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Speaker 2: ever encountered. Hadn't read it since I was seven, and

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Speaker 2: it just has so much to say about life and

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Speaker 2: death and purpose. And here I am Jamie's book Club.

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Speaker 2: Please read this book for second graders again. You won't

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Speaker 2: regret it.

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Speaker 3: But let's get back to the episode.

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Speaker 2: And so today we are continuing our discussion of the

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Speaker 2: infamous Curvy Wife post of twenty seventeen, and once more

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Speaker 2: at the top of this episode, I do just want

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Speaker 2: to say that if this post works for you, that's

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Speaker 2: totally fine, But this week I want to examine the

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Speaker 2: backlash to this.

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Speaker 3: Story more clearly. Not every story I cover.

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Speaker 2: Has backlash that, at least in my opinion, warrants a

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Speaker 2: closer look, but in the case of this story, I

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Speaker 2: think it also offers an opportunity to take a look

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Speaker 2: at what body positivity and fat activism meant at this

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Speaker 2: moment and what it means now. I'll be speaking with

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Speaker 2: Tigris Osborne of NAFA, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance,

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Speaker 2: and Kate Navarete of the Body Positivity Alliance. But before

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Speaker 2: we jump into my talk with Kate, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: give a quick snapshot of we're attitudes toward body positivity

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Speaker 2: and fat liberation stood around the time that the Curvy

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Speaker 2: Wife story went viral, and this is going to be

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Speaker 2: a pretty rapid fire history. So for more nuanced and

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Speaker 2: detailed work on this movement, and a link of fumore

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Speaker 2: works in the description as well. Fat liberation movements, which

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Speaker 2: have gone by a number of names, including fat acceptance,

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Speaker 2: fat empowerment, and fat pride, have been in the mainstream

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Speaker 2: discourse since the nineteen sixties and is often characterized in

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Speaker 2: movements alongside the major feminist movements of the last one

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Speaker 2: hundred or so years. In nineteen sixty seven, Fat Power

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Speaker 2: activists staged a demonstration in Central Park where over fifty

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Speaker 2: people eight held signs with pictures of Twiggy and said

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Speaker 2: diet books on fire, Pretty punk rock then. NAFFO was

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Speaker 2: founded in nineteen sixty nine by engineer Bill Fabri, who

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Speaker 2: started the volunteer driven group in response to the discrimination

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Speaker 2: his wife faced in her day to day life. A

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Speaker 2: spinoff of this group, called the Fat Underground, began in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. Texts like Fat Power, Whatever You Weigh

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Speaker 2: Is Right by Llewell and Lauderback in nineteen seventy and

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Speaker 2: Fat as a Feminist Issue by Susie Orbach in seventy

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Speaker 2: eight continued to push the movement forward, along with Naffa's

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Speaker 2: own Fat Manifesto in nineteen seventy three, which demanded quote

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Speaker 2: equal rights for fat.

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Speaker 3: People in all areas of life.

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Speaker 2: Unquote. These groups were certainly considered radical at the time,

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Speaker 2: but they were also often criticized as being flawed in

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Speaker 2: the same ways that the feminist movements they worked alongside

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Speaker 2: with were. While fat activism was and is considered a

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Speaker 2: civil rights issue, NAPA had neglected to meaningfully include non

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Speaker 2: white people and black people, specifically under the guise that

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Speaker 2: fat activism was not needed as much in those communities,

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Speaker 2: something the organization has strived to rectify since here. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to quote Tigris Osborne, the current executive director of NAFA,

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Speaker 2: writing in a blog post on the NAFA website about

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Speaker 2: how discouraging it was to see a dearth of people

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Speaker 2: who looked like her when she first got involved in

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Speaker 2: fat activism. And since I'm interviewing Tigris later in this episode,

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Speaker 2: I asked if she'd read her own words.

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Speaker 5: So I'm going to share with you something that I

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Speaker 5: wrote for the newsletter for the Nationalist Theiation to Advance

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Speaker 5: Fat Acceptance or NAFA, a couple of years ago, and

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Speaker 5: as I'm reading it now in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 3: It still really holds true.

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Speaker 6: Here's what I wrote.

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Speaker 5: Some key moments we identify as the roots of fat

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Speaker 5: lib are really really white moments. And throughout the history

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Speaker 5: of the documented organized fat activist movement, what's often not documented,

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Speaker 5: especially before the modern era, are the black people who

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Speaker 5: were there. I've been going through old NAFA newsletters from

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Speaker 5: the seventies and so far I've only seen one visibly

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Speaker 5: black person who was unidentified in the photos.

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Speaker 6: A couple years later.

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Speaker 5: Side note, I've seen only a handful more as I

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Speaker 5: continue that project of reviewing our old newsletters back to

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Speaker 5: what I wrote. I haven't tracked them down yet, and

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Speaker 5: I don't know if I will ever be able to

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Speaker 5: track down that person. Maybe this person was having the

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Speaker 5: time of their life at NAFA events, behave Sometimes I've

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Speaker 5: had a great time despite being the only black person

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Speaker 5: in a place. But at other times I've been incredibly

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Speaker 5: uncomfortable but made the best of it, and other times

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Speaker 5: I've just been uncomfortable. I've felt all of those things

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Speaker 5: as a black person in NAFA in the twenty tens

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Speaker 5: and twenty twenties, so I can imagine what I would

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Speaker 5: have felt in NAFA in other decades. We see black

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Speaker 5: leadership in other social justice movements. At the time of

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Speaker 5: NAFA's founding, what does whiteness have to do with why

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Speaker 5: we don't see black leadership or even much black participation

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Speaker 5: in early NAFA. What does anti blackness have to do

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Speaker 5: with it? Is there simply more urgency of other issues

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Speaker 5: for black folks then now? Or is there discomfort in

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Speaker 5: these spaces for black people then now? Or are black

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Speaker 5: people simply not interested in NAFA then now? These questions

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Speaker 5: feel rhetorical, but they're not.

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Speaker 2: By the nineties, BAT activists were picketing in front of

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Speaker 2: the White House and becoming increasingly critical of the rampant

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Speaker 2: fat phobia present in mainstream media. The nineties and two

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Speaker 2: thousands are notable for rampant fat phobia that, whether you

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Speaker 2: like millennials or not, did a hell of a lot

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Speaker 2: of damage on how everyone, but particularly women and fems,

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Speaker 2: were conditioned to perceive themselves. Anecdotally, I started dieting when

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Speaker 2: I was eight years old. This was the era of

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Speaker 2: Kate Moss's grand ode to internalize fat phobia. Nothing tastes

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Speaker 2: as good as skinny feels, and gave way to online

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Speaker 2: communities that were centered around encouraging each other's eating disorders.

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Speaker 2: And while NAFA had a persistent issue with a lack

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Speaker 2: of black leadership and members. Fat activism was increasingly spearheaded

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Speaker 2: by black and queer communities when it moved online. I

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Speaker 2: remember hearing this poem from poet Sonya Rene Taylor when

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Speaker 2: it first went viral in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 6: The body is not an apology.

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Speaker 7: Let it not be forgive me, not fixed to mattress

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Speaker 7: when night threatens to leave the room empty as the

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Speaker 7: belly of a crow.

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Speaker 5: The body is not an apology.

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Speaker 7: Do not present it as a disassembled rifle when he

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Speaker 7: is yet to prove himself more than common intruder.

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Speaker 6: The body is not an apology.

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Speaker 7: Let it not be common as oil, ash or toilet.

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Speaker 7: Let it not be small, as gravel stained or teeth.

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Speaker 7: Let it not be mountain when it is sand. Let

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Speaker 7: it not be ocean when it is grass. Let it

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Speaker 7: not be shaken, flattened, or raised in contrition.

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Speaker 6: The body is not an apology.

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Speaker 2: A link the full poem in the description It's really beautiful.

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Speaker 2: But even after fat activism moves online, there are similarities

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Speaker 2: between fat activism and feminist activism during this period of time.

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Speaker 2: In previous decades, fat activism had been either mocked or

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Speaker 2: dismissed by mainstream outlets, but by the two thousands, the

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Speaker 2: distinct online communities built led mainstream advertisers to view it

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Speaker 2: as an opportunity. What if we took this notion that

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Speaker 2: all bodies are worthy of love, removed the politics from

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Speaker 2: that notion, and sold it back to consumers. It's not

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Speaker 2: quite that simple, but after the success of the original

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Speaker 2: run of Dove soap real beauty ads starting in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and four, body positivity stripped of politics became an

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Speaker 2: increasingly common marketing tactic. The original Dove soap ads were

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Speaker 2: rooted in the language of body positivity, but didn't really

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Speaker 2: offer any solution or action toward it outside of visual

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Speaker 2: representation and buying Dove soap.

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Speaker 1: How long have we been chasing someone else's idea of beauty?

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Speaker 1: Maybe one size fits all hair, it doesn't fit you.

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Speaker 1: Rediscover the beauty of your own hair. Discovered Dove shampoos

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Speaker 1: and conditioners.

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Speaker 2: But these ads were really effective. After the first series

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Speaker 2: of ads featuring a group of women that were comparatively

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Speaker 2: more diverse in race and age and less thin than

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Speaker 2: women you were used to seeing in soap ads, Dove

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Speaker 2: sales went up seven hundred percent. That's an ad from

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Speaker 2: two thousand and four, but this campaign has lasted over

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Speaker 2: twenty years now. Different eras of Dove ads single out

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Speaker 2: the ways that other brands photoshop and marginalize their representatives

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Speaker 2: to make the consumer feel bad about themselves, and more

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Speaker 2: recently have made short documentaries about how girls become critical

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Speaker 2: of their appearance, beginning at a very young age. And

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Speaker 2: I don't mean to dismiss this campaign outright, because this

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Speaker 2: is all true and makes a demonstrable difference to have

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Speaker 2: out in the mainstream, But the common refrain is that

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Speaker 2: cannot be the endgame.

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Speaker 3: It's not enough.

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Speaker 2: So after Dove's success, other brands jumped on board the

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Speaker 2: SS body positivity, including brands that had been notoriously fat

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Speaker 2: phobic in the past. Looking at You, Victoria's secret put

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Speaker 2: Amamas Prado.

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Speaker 6: Myself proud to be who I am, proud to be,

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Speaker 6: proud to be, proud to be.

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Speaker 2: Brands like Airy, Oley and famously Barbie in twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: suddenly featured a wider range of body types than ever before,

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Speaker 2: and every time it prompted controversy in the mainstream media

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Speaker 2: because in one sense, this was a wider range of

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Speaker 2: body representation than mainstream audiences were used to seeing, but

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Speaker 2: there was never a political goal attached to this representation.

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Speaker 2: The goal was to sell products more effectively. And it's

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Speaker 2: during this era of body positivity in the early to

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Speaker 2: mid twenty tens, that Sarah Tripp launches her blog Sassy

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Speaker 2: Red Lipstick, and it was a fashion blog. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: launched with the intention of being a source for body positivity,

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Speaker 2: but over the years, Sarah would often be candid about

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Speaker 2: her relationship with her body and being this quote unquote

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Speaker 2: in between her making a name for herself in an

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Speaker 2: industry and an influencing space that was obsessively thin. She

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Speaker 2: wasn't trying to or explicitly doing activist work. She was

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Speaker 2: speaking honestly about her own experiences and certainly as the

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Speaker 2: blog continued, she opened the floor to women of all sizes,

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Speaker 2: so body positivity was discussed. But it wasn't like she

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Speaker 2: was doing on the ground organization work and wasn't aspiring to.

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Speaker 2: She was and is an influencer who loves her body,

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Speaker 2: and that's great, but it does provide some context or

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Speaker 2: when the Trips were suddenly made the faces of American

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Speaker 2: body positivity, while some fat liberation activists were kind of

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Speaker 2: annoyed about it because not only were the Trips not activists,

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Speaker 2: there was also this glaring issue of inclusivity and this

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Speaker 2: persistent issue of CIS white bodies within fat activism being centered.

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Speaker 2: Sarah Tripp is a CIS white woman from a lot

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Speaker 2: of money, and while that doesn't negain any body discrimination

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Speaker 2: she's experienced in her life, it does make a difference

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Speaker 2: in the ways that she and her husband were subsequently

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Speaker 2: able to turn this into a career, because, as has

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Speaker 2: become obvious over time, the way that black and brown

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Speaker 2: women are treated online and in the real world is

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Speaker 2: with continued degrees of mistrust, neegging, and even violence. Thankfully,

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Speaker 2: there are and always have been, many people working in

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Speaker 2: that space that aren't SIS white people. I don't mean

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Speaker 2: to erase them. I am curious to ask whether this

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Speaker 2: story would have gotten the attention and media prioritization it

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Speaker 2: did if the couple and the bodies at its center

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Speaker 2: weren't SIS, straight and white.

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Speaker 3: And I can't stress this enough.

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Speaker 2: This is not Sarah's fault, right, She was just trying

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Speaker 2: to exist and have a career online and this became

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Speaker 2: a launching point that she told Rebecca Jennings was very

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable and anxiety inducing for her because Sarah wasn't inviting

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Speaker 2: this conversation about her body and didn't personally prompt it.

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Speaker 2: It was her husband and the media who started this conversation.

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Speaker 2: So on one end, her body is being centered without

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Speaker 2: her consent by the media, and on the other end,

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Speaker 2: there were fat activists who seemed frustrated with Sarah's body

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Speaker 2: were not being fat enough to warrant such an outsized discussion.

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Speaker 2: And so my next interview was with a person who

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Speaker 2: had an especially fresh perspective on the curvy wife saga

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Speaker 2: because she was a child when the story happened. My

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Speaker 2: interview with Kate Navarette. When we come back, welcome back

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Speaker 2: to sixteenth minute. I found a white eyebrow hair this morning,

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Speaker 2: and here is my interview with Kate Navarette of the

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Speaker 2: Body Positivity Alliance. This interview has been edited for time

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Speaker 2: and clarity.

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Speaker 5: Enjoy.

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Speaker 6: My name is Kate Nevadet. I am the founder and

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Speaker 6: executive director of Body Positive Alliance, which is a nonprofit

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Speaker 6: organization dedicated to promoting the representation, fair treatment, and equity

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Speaker 6: of all bodies, regardless of appearance or identity. We started

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Speaker 6: back in twenty nineteen as a local high school club

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Speaker 6: and have since expanded to a nonprofit and have been

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Speaker 6: operating for about four years now as of five oh

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Speaker 6: one and c three. And in my personal life, I

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Speaker 6: am a current undergraduate student at Emory University. I'm a

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Speaker 6: business major, and I'm super passionate about all things pop

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Speaker 6: culture and I think that what we're about to talk

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Speaker 6: about today dives really deep into that, and I'm excited

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Speaker 6: to chat.

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Speaker 3: I know that you are.

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Speaker 2: So you're a college student and we're talking about a

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Speaker 2: story that happened seven years ago.

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Speaker 3: Now, the Curvy Wife Saga. You were a full child

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Speaker 3: for this.

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Speaker 6: I think I was about twelve when this happened. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: I think. I think twelve is painful to hear. But

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Speaker 6: the truth is the truth.

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Speaker 3: So were you familiar with the story at all? I

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Speaker 3: was not.

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Speaker 6: No, this is all news me.

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Speaker 2: I'm really interested to get your take as a first

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Speaker 2: time I love my Curvy Wife Saga experiencer. What do

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Speaker 2: you make of this story?

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Speaker 6: What's really interesting is that, at first glance, I think,

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Speaker 6: in the line of work that I do, I was

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Speaker 6: really quick to judge. I think that at first glance

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Speaker 6: it seemed kind of odd whereas I think for people

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Speaker 6: who maybe don't have as much exposure to body positivity

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Speaker 6: would jump toward more reaction of admiration our praise, which

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Speaker 6: I think is what a lot of people did at

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Speaker 6: the time. It seems like when this came out there

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Speaker 6: were certainly some good components to what was posted. I

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Speaker 6: mean this bringing attention to how women are marginalized based

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Speaker 6: on narrow appearance ideal or fighting conventional norms of attractiveness,

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Speaker 6: and supporting the idea that you can experience love regardless

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Speaker 6: of what you look like, you know, even like finding

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Speaker 6: things that traditionally aren't considered attractive, like fatness in the

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Speaker 6: Western world attractive. I thought there were good nuggets overall.

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Speaker 6: I just thought it was really odd from just a

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Speaker 6: personal lens of it felt weird for this to be

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Speaker 6: coming from the perspective of this woman's husband. I think

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Speaker 6: that was what stood out to me immediately is something

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Speaker 6: that was a bit off putting, because if this was

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Speaker 6: a woman speaking to her experience dealing with body image

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Speaker 6: and talking about her journey marrying someone who more narrowly

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Speaker 6: falls in line with those ideals on the like male

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Speaker 6: end of the spectrum, and then also you know over again,

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Speaker 6: like overcoming this personal struggle, that would be something that

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Speaker 6: I think would be really endearing and really positive for

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Speaker 6: people to see. But just this whole idea that it

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Speaker 6: was coming from him, and it was using such I

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Speaker 6: wouldn't say vulgar is the right word, but using just

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Speaker 6: language that was so body focused and also at the

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Speaker 6: same time giving himself kind of a pat on the

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Speaker 6: back for liking curveer women when that's just something that

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Speaker 6: some people do. I think was it was a bit odd.

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Speaker 6: I think I'm teetering on icky. But for the time being,

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Speaker 6: just with what I've seen, it has felt kind of odd.

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Speaker 2: If this was a post by a woman talking about

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Speaker 2: her own body, I feel like it's not it's not

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Speaker 2: even a news story because it's.

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Speaker 3: A man talking about his wife.

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Speaker 6: Like you're saying, right, it feels like a very conventional

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Speaker 6: trend cycle, slash media headline, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 6: It seems like he's kind of made a career off

438
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 6: of this, almost not you know, I look at his

439
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 6: profile here, He's about half a million followers. He has

440
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 6: continued to produce content around liking curvy women and celebrating

441
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 6: curvy women. But again, it just feels really objectifying. It's weird.

442
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 6: It's weird that this is coming from a male perspective

443
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 6: because it's not exactly like either he's celebrating men or

444
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 6: you know, people who like identify within the confines of

445
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 6: his gender identity. He is exclusively celebrating women in a

446
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 6: way that I think a lot of people would interpret

447
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 6: as fetishizing people with this particular body type. And I think, again,

448
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 6: it's great to challenge norms of romantic attraction and challenge

449
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 6: beauty standards and challenge the way that we're perceiving bodies,

450
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 6: but again, it's really hard to do that without objectifying people,

451
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 6: and especially when he's looking at it through clearly such

452
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 6: a sexual gaze. And again there's also this added component

453
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 6: of he considers himself brave for this, which to me

454
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 6: is so ridiculous, Like you are not brave for finding

455
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 6: your wife attractive, you know, if anything like credits should

456
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 6: go to her for her however, she has navigated the world.

457
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 6: And also I just want to say too, she is,

458
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 6: you know, not the largest woman in the world, right,

459
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 6: like she pretty much has Like I'm you know, I've

460
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 6: seen her, and you know, I'm not gonna like label

461
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 6: her body one way or the other. I believe in

462
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 6: individual like autonomy there. But from what we can see

463
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 6: on the census data of the average size of an

464
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 6: American woman, pretty standard, right, And I completely understand that

465
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 6: the ways in which women are portrayed in the media

466
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 6: versus what the actual average American woman looks like, there's

467
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 6: a huge discrepancy there. I will never discount that, and

468
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 6: in fact, I will do everything I can to challenge that. Again,

469
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 6: this attribution of bravery courage for liking this woman, that's

470
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 6: where I kind of feel the fetishizing coming in, because

471
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 6: it feels like, despite you being considered ugly to everyone else,

472
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 6: I still love you. And men, if you like ugly

473
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 6: women out there like I do, it's okay. It's still

474
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 6: perpetuating a narrow confine of beauty rather than trying to

475
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 6: expand it. And you know, that is one approach. I

476
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 6: don't think liberation comes from expanding the definition of beauty.

477
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 6: I think it comes from deconstructing beauty in its totality.

478
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 6: But and then it also kind of begs the question,

479
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 6: if I'm sitting here criticizing it, then how can we

480
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 6: really tackle all these systems or all these nuances with

481
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 6: one individual's response, we can't, we can't, he can't accomplish everything,

482
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 6: and I can't expecting too. But again, I think my

483
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 6: overall thought here is just that it's uncomfortable that this

484
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 6: came from her husband's perspective instead of her own, because

485
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 6: I think that just again perpetuates objectification and misogyny. Honestly,

486
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 6: that beauty standards create and uphold.

487
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: Something that always rubs me the wrong way about this

488
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: story is just her like Sarah Tripp's removal from the story,

489
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: because completely at the time this was posted, she was

490
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: you know, I think she had a couple hundred thousand

491
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: followers and she was an influencer for I think she

492
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: could called it at a time like in between sizes

493
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: where she was between plus size and has like normal

494
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: store sizes in the way that it was presented, and

495
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: that was sort of her whole beat was exploring that

496
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: and like, how do I find clothes that fit me?

497
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: If you have the same sort of frustration while shopping,

498
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: here is what I do. So she was directly interacting

499
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: with this.

500
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's also what you said too about her having

501
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 6: her own Internet personality and you know, propagating something that's

502
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 6: coming from really personal and probably pretty painful experience of

503
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 6: trying to navigate shopping as a non standard sized woman.

504
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 6: That's something that should deserve way more attention than you know,

505
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 6: a man calling his wife hot, Right, Like, why are

506
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 6: we even test? Holiday said in an article with people,

507
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 6: Why are we giving men trophies? Why are we giving

508
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 6: men trophies for being attracted to women who don't fit

509
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 6: conventional beauty standards. I think also if people are only

510
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 6: attracted to what is considered conventionally beautiful or the beauty standard,

511
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 6: that should signal to us that there is so much

512
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 6: more we need to address and that there are so

513
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 6: many problems out there in our society that need to

514
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 6: be tackled. And I think that's part of what he's saying, right,

515
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 6: like the fact that he was quote unquote bullied for

516
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 6: liking women who didn't fit this conventional norm. But again,

517
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 6: he there's been some other stuff that's come up. He

518
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,239
Speaker 6: has made transphobic tweets in the past, and I'm not

519
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 6: sure what he didn't necessarily to rectify that, but he's

520
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 6: made transphobic tweets towards trans women specifically, and that's something

521
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 6: where I think to myself, if you're not going to

522
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 6: support all women, then you're just sort of narrowly opening

523
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 6: the door for a woman who's maybe like myself, closer

524
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 6: to like a size twelve or whatever, you know, come through,

525
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 6: come through the door, and then quickly shutting it for

526
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 6: everyone else. Right, it's not incremental progress. That just kind

527
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 6: of creates a debate around incremental progress. But I yeah,

528
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 6: I just found it. I just found it really hypocritical,

529
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 6: Like you are questioning and criticizing these beauty standards, but

530
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 6: then also simultaneously putting messaging out there that would indicate

531
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 6: that you don't support all women, and that again you're

532
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 6: maintaining that narrow beauty ideal or just narrow idea of womanhood.

533
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 6: To some extent, women just aren't appreciated in the media

534
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 6: or listened to in the media in the same way

535
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 6: that men are. And so when a man decides it's

536
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 6: okay for a woman to love her body, then we're

537
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 6: allowed to love our body, right, Like, yeah, we need

538
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 6: permission to feel attractive or to feel worthy of love.

539
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 6: And that's exactly what this post exemplifies. And it's so

540
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 6: transparent as to what the media cares about, which is

541
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 6: the perspectives of men, white men at that white straight men.

542
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 6: That's incredibly frustrating. And he's making a career out of this,

543
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 6: which is, I mean, just kind of disgusting.

544
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: If I'm being honest, this is clearly the wrong approach.

545
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: Can you tell me a little bit about the work

546
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: that you've been doing and how it sort of evolved

547
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: in the four years that you've been doing it.

548
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 6: Definitely, I got my start doing body positive adocacy work

549
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 6: really inspired by my personal struggle with body image and

550
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 6: ultimately the struggle of the people around me. I noticed

551
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 6: that this was an issue that was really pervasive in

552
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 6: my community, and I started a body positive club as

553
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 6: a sophomore in high school and drew like a pretty

554
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 6: right just like a decent community. It was friends, I

555
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 6: like got my favorite English teacher to sign on as

556
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 6: our sponsor. It was very casual, and we just had

557
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 6: an opportunity to talk about body image in a way

558
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 6: that I hadn't really done before, and in a way

559
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 6: that I had increasingly started engaging with online because I

560
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 6: was really trying at this point to recover from my

561
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 6: eating disorders. And so what ended up happening was the

562
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 6: pandemic hit around March of sophomore year of high school,

563
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 6: and I started doing public addicacy work online, not dissimilar

564
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 6: from what Sarah Tripp was doing. I was advocating for

565
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 6: body positivity on TikTok. I amassed a small but mighty

566
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 6: following from that, and I got some really cool opportunities

567
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 6: because of it. But I just was led to this

568
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 6: place of feeling very objectified, and especially being that young,

569
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 6: being fifteen and sixteen and doing this work, it felt

570
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 6: a bit uncomfortable for me to be doing, especially so

571
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 6: new into my recovery, and ultimately I wanted to do

572
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 6: something more substantive, and so the path I took then

573
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 6: was to expand my organization from just a club to

574
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 6: a nonprofit, and we've been operating as a nonprofit ever since,

575
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 6: you know, and I started a podcast surrounding it, speaking

576
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 6: with activists in the space, and really over time developed

577
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 6: a broader understanding of body positivity that went beyond feel

578
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 6: good about yourself and you know, we can we can

579
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 6: help you with your relationship with food, to what are

580
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 6: the systems in place that are making people feel bad

581
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 6: about their bodies and also contributing to the oppression of

582
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 6: people based on their physical appearance, and how can we address,

583
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 6: educate about those and deconstruct them. And so our work

584
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 6: now focuses much more on the socio political context of

585
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 6: body positivity, as is true with the original intention of

586
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 6: the movement, which emerged as a byproduct of fat liberation

587
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 6: during the Civil rights era in the United States. And

588
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 6: I really found that this approach just opened my eyes

589
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 6: in a way that I had previously not been exposed to,

590
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 6: in a way that surface level and mainstream body positivity

591
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 6: is failing to encompass. And it's because this part of

592
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 6: the movement, and this radical part of the movement, it's

593
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 6: not as palatable and it's not as digestive as some

594
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 6: of the mainstream messaging that we're seeing. And so while

595
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 6: it's great to say that everyone is beautiful, we should

596
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 6: also be challenging the idea of beauty in and of itself, right,

597
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 6: the idea that we need to be beautiful or need

598
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 6: to expand this definition of beauty. And it's tough because

599
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 6: in the society we live in, expanding the definition of

600
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 6: beauty is really the most realistic path forward to liberation, right,

601
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 6: like representation and the importance of representation, but also behind

602
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 6: the scenes, there need to be people who are deconstructing

603
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 6: this idea altogether. And so my messaging now more so

604
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 6: revolves around the idea that you should be allowed to

605
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 6: feel good about yourself and feel good about the way

606
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 6: you look, but you should also know that you are

607
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 6: worthy and you are good beyond the way that you look.

608
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 6: And so I think in this respect, I understand I

609
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 6: don't know. I wouldn't say I necessarily understand his intention,

610
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 6: but I understand why his wife was okay with it

611
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 6: happening and what maybe felt like positive validation for her,

612
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 6: And I want to say this without being patronizing or

613
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 6: like infantilizing her. I also think, though, that there is

614
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 6: arguably a need for transparency and the real motivations behind

615
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 6: maintaining this. And is that something that's monetary or is

616
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 6: that something that's the basis of ideology, because if it's

617
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 6: based on ideology, that could use some correcting, right, multiple

618
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 6: things can be true at the same time.

619
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: The last thing I wanted to ask you about I'm

620
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: ten years older than you, but also so much of

621
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: the way that I perceived my body for better and

622
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: for worse, Like the Internet, both empowered and encouraged an

623
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 2: eating disorder that was, you know, raged for me throughout

624
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: high school into college, and the Internet was instru mental

625
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: in me finding people that were extremely like critical in

626
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 2: my recovering and healing from it. I would love to

627
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: hear a little bit about, you know, whether it's your

628
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: experience or people you've spoken with through your advocacy, how

629
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 2: you know we conceive our bodies with the internet, how

630
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: and if you have any feelings on how to form

631
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 2: a healthier relationship with perceiving your body on the internet.

632
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 6: Totally, and I really resonate with what you said. The

633
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 6: Internet was arguably a large contributor to my body image

634
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 6: struggles and why it developed my eating disorders, but it also,

635
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 6: again like you said, was instrumental in recovery. Some of

636
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 6: the early recovery influencers that I found, especially because I

637
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 6: was recovering during the pandemic, Exposing myself to this changed

638
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 6: the trajectory of my life and I'm so eternally grateful

639
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 6: for that. And I think that a lot of my

640
00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 6: life has been spent trying to navigate what social media

641
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 6: can look like in my life, and that's a journey

642
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 6: that I'm still on. I've been on social media for

643
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 6: more than half of my life now. I got my

644
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 6: Instagram account when I was nine years old, and I'm

645
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 6: now again. Like I said, funny, I've been around the

646
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 6: Internet for a while now, and I've also I've taken

647
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 6: breaks from it. I think there's no shame in taking

648
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 6: a break from social media. There's this constant fear of

649
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 6: missing out, but I promise that there is. There's so

650
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 6: much more to life than what is on a screen.

651
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 6: And I also think that something that I've done because

652
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 6: often I think this guilt of sometimes, you know, as

653
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 6: someone who struggled with binge eating disorder, find myself kind

654
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 6: of replicating the same behaviors when I'm using social media,

655
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 6: which is to say that I am scrolling for a

656
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 6: really long time. Then I feel really guilty about it,

657
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 6: so I delete social media the next day, and then

658
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 6: I re downloaded, and then the same cycle repeats over

659
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 6: and over. And something that I really tried to incorporate

660
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 6: recently is setting aside like five ten minutes maybe fifteen

661
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 6: each day to go on social media and making that

662
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 6: time intentional and it doesn't have to be the same

663
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 6: time every day, but making the time that you're spending

664
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 6: on social media intentional rather than a passive scroll. You know,

665
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 6: while you're waiting in line for you know, a public bathroom,

666
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 6: or just like you know, you're sitting at lunch and

667
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 6: your friend hasn't showed up yet. In these waiting moments,

668
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 6: I think can be something that plagues our mental health,

669
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 6: but being intentional about it is something that's really important.

670
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 6: And I also think to the same degree, be intentional

671
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 6: about what you're consuming. If you are looking at people,

672
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 6: even friends, who make you feel bad about yourself. I

673
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 6: think the mute feature is great for friends because you

674
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 6: don't have to unfollow them, but you also don't have

675
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 6: to see their content. I do this with people. I'm

676
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 6: not going to be not going to name names, but

677
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 6: there's people that you follow, even that you're friends with,

678
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 6: that you're close to and you love, and a door

679
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 6: that you look at their Instagram and think, oh my gosh,

680
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 6: I need to look like that, then mute them. It's okay.

681
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 6: Set boundaries. Put yourself first, you know. I think that's

682
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 6: what's really important here. And sometimes it's really difficult to

683
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 6: control what we see. And I also, I'm going to

684
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 6: be realistic, right we live in an age, and especially

685
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 6: when you're my age, like a college student, you need

686
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 6: to be on social media for clubs and for communication

687
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 6: and whatever it may be, especially in my case, like

688
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 6: maintaining long distance friendships, which I'm sure a lot of

689
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 6: us who totally you know, our adults can relate to.

690
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 6: And so I see the value in it, and I

691
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 6: think that suggesting we all delete it entirely is not

692
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 6: productive or feasible. But again, being intentional with your usage,

693
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 6: moderating your usage is really the biggest thing that I

694
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 6: can offer as a piece of advice. And also just

695
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 6: know that we're all figuring it out. Being kind to

696
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 6: yourself and knowing that even if you doom scroll, you

697
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 6: don't have to completely cut yourself off. It's okay, And

698
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 6: we're all figuring this out together, and we're all guinea

699
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 6: pigs in this new age of communication and life, and

700
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 6: it'll take some getting used to for sure.

701
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Kate, And you can learn more

702
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 2: about the Body Positivity Alliance in the description when we

703
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: come back. Tigris Osborne of NAPA, Welcome back to sixteenth minute.

704
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: I have been watching YouTube videos theorizing about why Mormon

705
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: influencers specifically, are so successful.

706
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 3: And it's blowing my mind.

707
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 2: And this is part two of our Curvy Life series.

708
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: My final talk is with Tigris Osbourne, the executive director

709
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: of the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance. She's been

710
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: entrenched in fat activism for a long time. She's a

711
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: gen xer and has a different free and post internet

712
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: take on this story. And as always, this interview has

713
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 2: been edited for time and clarity. Here's our chat.

714
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 5: I am ty Chris Osborne. I am the executive director

715
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 5: of NAFA, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance.

716
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, we've already sort of started diving into the

717
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: curvy wife saga.

718
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 3: Were you aware of this story when it first happened.

719
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 6: I was.

720
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 5: I wasn't following it super closely because to me, it

721
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 5: was just like just another fat admirer guy talking on

722
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 5: the internet. And I've seen a lot of that over

723
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 5: my years. Before I became involved with NAFA and became

724
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 5: more of an activist and advocate in the fat space,

725
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 5: I was a plus sized nightclub promoter and so I

726
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 5: started a club in Oakland in two thousand and eight

727
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 5: called Full Figure Entertainment that was, you know, a nightclub

728
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 5: party for plus sized women. We used to say bodied

729
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 5: ladies and their friends and fans of all sizes, And

730
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 5: so I was exposed to a lot of guys who

731
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 5: are sort of like waving the flag of like, I

732
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 5: love big women, and so to me, he was just

733
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,479
Speaker 5: like another guy waving the flag of I love big women.

734
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 5: And the main thing I remember thinking at the time was,

735
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 5: your wife is not even that big, dude, This is

736
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 5: not like you're really gonna die on this hill of

737
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 5: I love big women, and she's only big compared to

738
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 5: like the most mainstream of beauty standards. So that's what

739
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 5: I remember my reaction being at the time.

740
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: That's something that I've heard come up a lot, and

741
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: it totally makes sense, and I feel like, does even

742
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: more to pull curvy wife into.

743
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 3: This story kind of against her.

744
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and there's always that sort of question of

745
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 5: where the male gaze fits into body positivity, right, like

746
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 5: how much are feelings and especially at that point in

747
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 5: the trajectory of body positivity, so like how much our

748
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 5: feelings are influenced by what men think of our bosodies

749
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 5: and or how much we do not care or only

750
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 5: care when it's our own man, but don't need anybody

751
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 5: else kind of going around making pronouncements, and you know,

752
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 5: I think people have a lot of really mixed reactions

753
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 5: to a moment like that based on where they are

754
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 5: in the trajectory of learning to you know, love and

755
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 5: embrace their body for whatever it is. And you know,

756
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 5: body positivity is interesting because we've been using the phrase

757
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 5: body positivity for decades, like fat activists and and you know,

758
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 5: and other advocates for sort of body freedom have been

759
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 5: talking about body positivity for decades. The organization the Body

760
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 5: Positive is I think twenty five years old. But when

761
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 5: we think of body positivity or we're really talking about

762
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 5: what happened on Tumblr and Instagram around body positivity in

763
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 5: the twenty ten ish era. And so in that time,

764
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 5: body positivity went from being sort of like the most

765
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 5: rebellious you know, the bipock people and the queer people

766
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 5: and the disabled people and the people with you know,

767
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 5: visible differences in their bodies and faces, and then you

768
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 5: know sort of like inched its way over to people

769
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 5: who kind of look like models already but are just

770
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 5: a tiny bit bigger or a tiny bit different in

771
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 5: some way. And I think those folks need positivity too,

772
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 5: they're living in the same culture as the rest of us,

773
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 5: but the way that they are disenfranchised from the culture

774
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 5: is a little bit different, or sometimes drastically different. And

775
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 5: so I think a lot of reaction from people in

776
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 5: fat activist community if they knew anything about curvy wife guy,

777
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 5: was that sort of like, here we go again, centering

778
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 5: someone who is barely outside of the norm and making

779
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 5: a whole big deal about that. And then, you know,

780
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 5: especially folks who have a more feminist or womanist orientation,

781
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 5: we're just sort of like, and we got to be

782
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 5: validated by some dudes, right, Right.

783
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: This is something I've wanted to get a little more

784
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 2: into because you've been working in this space for so

785
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: long now, that moment in the twenty tens where body

786
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: positivity is kind of corporatized, I feel like, in the

787
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: way that we see a lot of movements corporatized, and

788
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: you know how you see pride flags outside of banks

789
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: and all of this stuff, Right.

790
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 3: How did you have to move with that moment?

791
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: Because this story feels sort of like a very kind

792
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 2: of sanitized presentation of anything, and so I'm curious, you know.

793
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 3: How you sort of navigated that shift.

794
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 5: Sanitize is an interesting word I think. I think I

795
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 5: think the word I would use is depoliticized, like or

796
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 5: a political It's just like I'm going to say a

797
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 5: nice thing about bodies. I'm not going to talk about

798
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 5: any of the politics of why we don't usually say

799
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 5: nice things about bodies, or how these bodies are actually

800
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 5: treated out in the world, like or the access Like

801
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 5: I'm not out there, you know, fighting for more access

802
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 5: for my wife so that she can have better clothes

803
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 5: or you know, more job opportunities as a plus sized person.

804
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 5: I just love her and I want to sing about that,

805
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 5: and like I want to sing about how I love

806
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 5: myself too. I'm not hating on this man for loving

807
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 5: his wife. I mean, there is a little bit of

808
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 5: a sort of like you actually want a lot of

809
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 5: congratulations for something that you are just supposed to do.

810
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 5: But there's a little bit of that. But in terms

811
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 5: of like how it sort of represents what happened with

812
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 5: body positivity. Part of the challenge is we want the

813
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 5: concepts of body positivity or in our case, you know,

814
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 5: fat liberation, fat activism, fat rights movement, we want the

815
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 5: concepts to get more mainstream. That's the point of the work.

816
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 5: But when they get more mainstream without any of the

817
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 5: politics still attached, what you get is like a really

818
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 5: hollow version of what it is.

819
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 6: Right.

820
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 5: I want anthems. I want to shake my butt to

821
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 5: songs that sound like they are written by people who

822
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 5: want to see me shake my butt, although I still

823
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 5: question with him whether he actually wants to see me

824
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,919
Speaker 5: shake my butt at you know, my size twenty six

825
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 5: butt is not the same as his wife's butt, But

826
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 5: that's neither here nor there. Like you know, I want

827
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 5: the fun times and the good times too, but then

828
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 5: I want the people behind that to show up when

829
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 5: there is real work, So like I want the Robbies

830
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 5: of the world to sing the anthem and then to

831
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 5: also give money to fat activist causes and show up

832
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 5: when there's a rally and sign the petitions and do

833
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 5: the testimon like you you know you could do. I

834
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 5: love my curvy wife as a senate testimony when we're

835
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 5: fighting for a civil rights law, right, And that's kind

836
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 5: of what it is, the same thing with the sort

837
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 5: of mainstreaming of body positivity. It takes all of the

838
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 5: fun parts, It takes all the feel good parts and

839
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 5: blows them up, but it leaves all of the work behind,

840
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 5: all of the struggle and commitment. But that is where

841
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 5: body positivity started, right. It started with again, fat activists,

842
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 5: queer people, especially like Lee readership, from black women and

843
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 5: fems in internet spaces, and from feminists and queer women

844
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 5: and non binary fems, and like, you know, all of

845
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 5: these folks who are living on the margins, folks who

846
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 5: are disenfranchised from our systems of power. If you leave

847
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 5: all those folks behind, then what you have is just

848
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 5: a bunch of slogans and a feel good campaign.

849
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: So it's the liberation aspect in the political work that

850
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: is sort of absent from these kinds of stories.

851
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 3: And I'm curious also how this.

852
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: Applies to a media perspective, because something that always kind

853
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: of struck me about this story is that, yes, Robbie

854
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: made this post, but no one forced the media to

855
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: cover it in the way that it did.

856
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it really became a sort of like

857
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 5: a juggernaut of you know, like this little body positivity

858
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 5: moment or whatever. And I think some of that was

859
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 5: just the media fumbling around looking for anything to capitalize

860
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 5: on the popularlay of body positivity. And you know, and

861
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 5: it's a little bit of a as they say, a

862
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 5: dog bites man story, right, like, we're you know, we're

863
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 5: supposed to be like what he actually loves something that

864
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 5: everybody else doesn't love, and we're supposed to be like,

865
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 5: oh my god, he's such a hero for standing up

866
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 5: for his wife this way. And a lot of people

867
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 5: genuinely felt like that. You know, a lot of people

868
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 5: genuinely like revisiting the story and seeing comments from people

869
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 5: about how it made them feel to finally have somebody

870
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 5: not be closeted about liking a person who was like them,

871
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 5: because a lot of plus sized women in particular, and

872
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 5: I'm sure that this happens across like genders and sexual

873
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 5: orientations in some way, but but I think especially like

874
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 5: heterosexual women dealing with this gender men, there are a

875
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 5: lot of plus size women who have experienced the dude

876
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 5: who likes them in the dark, but who does not

877
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 5: like them in public, you know, who will not tell

878
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 5: his family and friends who will not certainly won't make

879
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,439
Speaker 5: a big pronouncement about it. And there are a lot

880
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:10,919
Speaker 5: of guys who have genuinely been like harassed by their

881
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 5: friends or you know, or left out of social situations

882
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 5: because that was their preference. You know, I've known guys

883
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 5: like that. I had a partner who spent years with

884
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 5: his friends like teasing him all the time because he

885
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 5: liked bigger girls, and even at NAFA, you know, our

886
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 5: origin story as a civil rights organization is a story

887
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 5: of a man who was passionately in love with his

888
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 5: wife and wanted to make a better world for her

889
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 5: because he was seeing all the ways that anti fatness

890
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 5: was affecting her like emotional landscape, but also was affecting

891
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 5: her in the practical world. And he was thinking about

892
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 5: things like the jobs she was confined to when she

893
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 5: wanted to get a job in their town, and he

894
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 5: was thinking about things like wanting to buy her a

895
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 5: blouse for their anniversary and not being able to find

896
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 5: anything at all in the town where they live that

897
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 5: would fit her. But he will also talk about being

898
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 5: a very young man and his friends talking, you know,

899
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 5: teasing him for wanting to take a chubby girl to

900
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 5: the prom. He's eighty two years old. And when he

901
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 5: tells that story about the prom date he wanted to

902
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 5: go on, you can you can feel the way that

903
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 5: he felt, you know, othered and shamed by the other

904
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 5: boys in his life, and and that that's the story

905
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 5: that a lot of men who date fat women have

906
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 5: And so I think it was really affirming for a

907
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 5: lot of women, the you know, the curvey wife letter.

908
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 5: But I also think it was affirming for a lot

909
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 5: of guys. And there is something important and powerful about that.

910
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 3: We just have to do more.

911
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 5: With it than like a two minute segment on the

912
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 5: Today Show patting him on the back for loving his

913
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 5: wife right right.

914
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 2: And because it's the Internet, some people, you know have

915
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: talked about curvy wife guy as if he should be

916
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 2: you know, drawn, and quartered others have been overly.

917
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 3: Defensive of him. And then there's people at the heart

918
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 3: of this story. So it's just inherently a mess.

919
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I'm just like, I don't want to like,

920
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 5: I don't want to be the champion of curvy wife guy,

921
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 5: but I also don't want to be the crucifier of

922
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 5: curvy wife guy. Like I think, especially for folks who've

923
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 5: never been introduced to a more radical politic, or even

924
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 5: a politic at all, around body acceptance, body liberation, body sovereignty,

925
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 5: Like people who would be like, what are you talking

926
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 5: about when you say those things? It just feels like

927
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 5: a really nice thing sometimes if you are the person

928
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 5: who's always been told you weren't good enough by the media,

929
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 5: by your family, by other people you tried to date, whatever,

930
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 5: to see somebody kind of champion the like, I think

931
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 5: you're good enough and and I think it's still true.

932
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 5: Like looking at his stuff now, like was looking I

933
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 5: was looking at his YouTube channel, and I just wandered

934
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 5: into the comments, and you know, on the folks who

935
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 5: are following him. Now you know, there's no like, let's

936
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 5: have a meaningful conversation about whether this is objectification of

937
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 5: women or whatever. There's mostly just people being like, I

938
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 5: feel so relieved to know someone feels like this, or

939
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 5: it's about time to hear some of the guys who

940
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 5: feel like this actually admit that they feel like this

941
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 5: instead of slinking off into a corner somewhere, or you know,

942
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 5: being real obvious when they're trying to holler at me.

943
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 5: But then when I want to go out to brunch,

944
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 5: they don't want to go right, So become you become

945
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 5: the guy who is the champion for curvy girls. But

946
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 5: all you do is make booty anthems. Okay, I mean,

947
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 5: we need some booty anthems, that's great. You know, what

948
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 5: do you do when you do want to take your

949
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 5: curvy wife out to brunch and the restaurant doesn't have

950
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 5: a chair that fits her? What are you doing about?

951
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 5: What are you doing about that? Are you that dude?

952
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 3: R hey?

953
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 6: Are you?

954
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 3: Are you that partner?

955
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 5: You know, there are a lot of couples like Robbie

956
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 5: and Sarah, and there are a lot of guys who

957
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 5: they're response to having been told that their attraction or

958
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 5: adoration of larger women at whatever range of that larger means, like,

959
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 5: there are a lot of those guys who have been

960
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 5: like their reaction to having been told that they were

961
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 5: wrong is to double down on it. And they've got

962
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,439
Speaker 5: the I love my you know, I Love Curvy Women

963
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 5: t shirt and they've got and there is an audience

964
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 5: for that. There's an audience for people who see the

965
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 5: guy in the I Love Curvy Women t shirt and

966
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 5: are like, hooray, finally someone. And then there's like a

967
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 5: whole segment of people who are like, oh my god,

968
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 5: here this guy, like, you know, how is he trying

969
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 5: to manipulate women with this? Or how is he trying

970
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 5: to make himself popular? With this or how is he

971
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 5: like it's never you know, there are a lot of

972
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 5: reactions of like, it's not actually about the women, it's

973
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 5: all about him, and I think that was part of

974
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 5: the real time reaction from a lot of people.

975
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: I would love to take some time to talk about

976
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 2: what NAFA is doing and has done that does address

977
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: that political angle, because for whatever reason, if this story

978
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: like appeal to someone at the time but did like

979
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: lack that political angle, let's get them into it.

980
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 3: Let's talk about it.

981
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, And to be fair, I want to also just

982
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 5: like be transparent that there are lots of moments in

983
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 5: napa's history where NAFA was doing the feel good thing,

984
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 5: where NAFA was just you know, doing the the community

985
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 5: building thing of connecting people, including connecting people for dating.

986
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 5: I mean historically there was actually a program called NAFA

987
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 5: Date that was about helping match people to you know,

988
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 5: to someone that they wanted to be with. Or there

989
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 5: were people who would come to NAFA conventions, you know,

990
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 5: hoping to find the love of their life. They weren't

991
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 5: coming to you know, to see how we can protest

992
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 5: at the airport for better airline seating. NAFA was doing that,

993
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 5: but there were people who were coming that were not that,

994
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 5: and sometimes there were quite toxic people who were coming

995
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 5: who were not that. We perfect that at NAFA either,

996
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 5: just because our origin story starts in a you know,

997
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 5: starts in a place with a romantic couple that was

998
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 5: actually where the and are actually did show up as

999
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 5: a real ally, That's not what all the dudes did, right,

1000
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 5: That's not what all people did. But what we hope

1001
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 5: we are doing better today is approaching things in a

1002
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 5: much more intersectional way so that everything at NAFA is

1003
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 5: not built around heterosexual dating relationships. And I would like

1004
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 5: to see more cis gender men come around to help

1005
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 5: do the work. And what some of the work looks

1006
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 5: like is just fun community building stuff because we need

1007
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 5: places to celebrate fat bodies, and at NAFA we always

1008
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 5: use the word fat. We really believe in destigmatizing that

1009
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 5: word by using it in neutral and celebratory ways. And

1010
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 5: wherever you are in this sort of spectrum of fatness, like,

1011
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 5: you're welcome in our spaces.

1012
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 6: But we want to always.

1013
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 5: Remember that the people who are on the larger end

1014
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 5: of that spectrum are facing different kind of societal barriers

1015
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 5: and different kind of systemic challenges than people who are

1016
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 5: more like Sarah the Curvey wife, Right, We want to

1017
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 5: always remember that in our work. One of the things

1018
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 5: that we are doing is working on legislative change. So

1019
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 5: we co founded the Campaign for Size Freedom with our

1020
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 5: friends at FLAIR, which is the fat legal advocacy organization,

1021
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 5: and it works towards supporting the passage of laws that

1022
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 5: add height and weight to protected classes under anti discrimination law.

1023
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 5: The political work that we're doing within the system is

1024
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 5: all about that. It's all about, you know, advancing civil

1025
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 5: rights law so that big bodies are protected by those laws.

1026
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 5: And we also know that legislation and liberation are not

1027
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 5: the same thing, right, and that working within the system

1028
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 5: can only do so much, so we try to support

1029
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 5: other kinds of grass proofs, organizing a small and definitely

1030
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 5: under resource movement. I mean, another thing we're doing is

1031
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 5: talking a lot about getting more funding for this very

1032
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 5: important issue. So many people think of they just think

1033
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 5: of body positivity, and they think body positivity has solved.

1034
00:59:58,360 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 3: Everything for larger people.

1035
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 5: They either think body positivity or ozembic is going to

1036
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 5: be the solution to every problem that fat people face,

1037
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 5: and neither of those things are true. So we work

1038
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 5: a lot on narrative change just to get people to

1039
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 5: change their minds, But we also work on narrative change

1040
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 5: to get people to understand that this is a movement

1041
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 5: that needs funding, just like other social justice movements need funding.

1042
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 2: The last question I had was because this is a

1043
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 2: story that is now seven years old, which is but yeah,

1044
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: the story is from twenty seventeen.

1045
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 3: Now we're in twenty twenty four.

1046
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 2: In that span of time, ish, have you noticed any

1047
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 2: meaningful changes in the way media handles these stories?

1048
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 3: Has it improved, has it worsened you? How do you feel?

1049
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 6: Well?

1050
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 5: I mean, one thing the media did since twenty seventeen,

1051
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 5: between twenty seventeen and now is just decide that Lizo

1052
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,959
Speaker 5: was the solution to everything, right, Like Lizzo is fat

1053
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 5: representation or Lizzo is you know, curvy representation. That's all

1054
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 5: we need. So if we've done our Lizos, we don't

1055
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 5: have to talk about anything else. And you know that's complicated, right.

1056
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 5: There are a lot of complications around Lizo for a

1057
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 5: variety of reasons. And from a like purely representation standard

1058
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 5: love it. We we've also seen a lot more representation

1059
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 5: in body positivity. We've seen some of those you know,

1060
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 5: businesses that sort of co opted body positivity and helped

1061
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 5: corporatize it, I think was the word you use. We've

1062
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 5: seen some of them be a little bit, a little

1063
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 5: little little bit responsive to the feedback that they were

1064
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 5: not doing enough. Don't you think it's so much better now?

1065
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 5: And like yes, and no, if you can you name

1066
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 5: anyone Curvey other than Lizo, because if you can't, then

1067
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 5: we're not on equal status with other, you know, celebrities,

1068
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 5: And I don't I don't want all of our definition

1069
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 5: of success to be built around celebrity culture either. But

1070
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 5: you know, but like, but this is the world we

1071
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 5: live in, right, and representation matters, and we're still dramatically underrepresented,

1072
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 5: especially compared to our percentage of the population. We hear

1073
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 5: all the time about, you know, how many Americans are fat,

1074
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,479
Speaker 5: and then we don't see any fat Americans, so that's

1075
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 5: not representation. So it's sort of like we've had some

1076
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 5: advances in talking about this stuff. I mean, I think

1077
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 5: there's been a lot of sort of two steps you know, forward,

1078
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 5: two steps back. And of course I am loath to

1079
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 5: talk about this as the Ozembic era, but the reality

1080
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 5: is we are living in the world of ozembic and

1081
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 5: all of its ripple effects and the way that that

1082
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 5: dominates the media has tremendous impact on how we see

1083
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 5: fat people, whether we think it's okay to be fat,

1084
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 5: whether we think it's fat people's own fault that they're fat.

1085
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 5: And also it dominates the politics because a lot of

1086
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 5: the money and energy is going into like the insurance

1087
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 5: companies and the pharmaceutical companies fighting over who's going to

1088
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 5: make the close billions of dollars matter the most in

1089
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 5: terms of covering these drugs, and then gets left behind

1090
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 5: in politics is no, there's not a miracle solution that

1091
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 5: gets rid of all the fat people. We still need

1092
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:04,919
Speaker 5: to actually do political work to make sure that fat

1093
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 5: people are treated as equal members of our community. So,

1094
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 5: you know, I wonder what would have happened if Curvey

1095
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 5: Wife Guy had debuted in the ozembic era. It is

1096
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 5: good to see people like like Pretty Big Girl Movement,

1097
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 5: the Dance Troupe, or like we do have some anthems

1098
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 5: that are coming actually from female performers, not from men

1099
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 5: objectifying women or even you know, celebrating women, but like

1100
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 5: people like El Bias, who's just gotta you know, I

1101
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 5: gotta love my body anthem. That is all about her

1102
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 5: loving her body. It's not actually about men looking at

1103
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 5: her body and deciding whether they love it or not. Right,

1104
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 5: there's a little bit more celebration of that space, for

1105
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 5: that acceptance of that TikTok viralness of that, you know.

1106
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 5: And you know, you can ask questions about all of

1107
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 5: those two things too, but at least there's more of

1108
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 5: a diversity of voice. Especially younger millennials and Gen zs

1109
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 5: are are better at sort of you know, looking at

1110
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 5: the stories and being like, okay, but what else though,

1111
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 5: or okay, but what's behind this? And I do think

1112
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 5: that there is some generational difference in reaction. It's not

1113
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 5: only a generational difference, but you know, in reaction to

1114
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 5: things like the actual curvy wife Guy post or just

1115
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 5: the sort of like the career of Curvy wife Guy

1116
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 5: after the fact. Like, I do think that there is

1117
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 5: some like we never got to see anything even remotely

1118
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 5: like this reaction from folks, you know, like my gen

1119
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 5: X cohort and folks who are older they can't even

1120
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 5: imagine a moment like that. That then there is from

1121
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 5: people who've seen those moments throughout their life, and they

1122
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 5: might still want to deconstruct the moment or critique the moment,

1123
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 5: or you know whatever. But at least it's not the

1124
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 5: first time they've ever heard of it, right. If you've

1125
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 5: lived your entire life on social media, it's probably not

1126
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 5: the only time you've ever seen a guy be like,

1127
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 5: I love big girls, right.

1128
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 3: Right, right.

1129
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 5: And so there is a little bit of a difference

1130
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 5: there that again I wouldn't attribute only to generation, but

1131
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 5: I do think that that is part of the impact

1132
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 5: on how differently some folks see it. We do have

1133
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 5: more dialogue around like the male gaze and you know,

1134
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 5: and how media feeds it or upholds it or whatever,

1135
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 5: and where we just don't care. There's like a lot more,

1136
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 5: especially in social media, a lot more self created media

1137
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 5: by women and fems that is about how that's very

1138
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 5: nice for you that you love curvy girls. Go over

1139
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 5: there somewhere and do your thing right, because over here

1140
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 5: we don't care what you think. We're just here to

1141
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 5: do that with just live in our best last with

1142
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 5: or without you and what you think.

1143
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 4: Right.

1144
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 5: I think there's a little bit more space for the anthems.

1145
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 5: I think there's a little bit more space for the

1146
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 5: people who don't care.

1147
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 3: About the anthems.

1148
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 5: I mean, I do think there is something to think

1149
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 5: about too, in the viralness of this and the fact

1150
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 5: that it was a white couple, you know, like there's

1151
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 5: always an aspect of race in how we think about

1152
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 5: which bodies are appropriate or whose bodies are desirable, you know,

1153
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 5: And there is this stereotype that also we saw in

1154
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,439
Speaker 5: a viral moment around Test Holliday years ago that had

1155
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 5: to do with like people's assumptions about black men loving

1156
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 5: bigger women. And and I do wonder like if a

1157
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 5: black husband had written that, if people would have just

1158
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 5: been like, yeah, well that's what black guys think and

1159
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 5: moved on, Like if if you know that racial element

1160
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 5: where it's like.

1161
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 6: What a white guy who.

1162
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 5: Likes big butts and he cannot lie, Like if there's

1163
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 5: like a you know, I think it's I think it's

1164
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 5: important to consider the question, both in terms of his

1165
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 5: race and hers, about like what where that contributed it

1166
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 5: to the moment blowing up in the way it did,

1167
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 5: And if you know, if that could have happened with

1168
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 5: different races involved. Definitely, if it could have happen and

1169
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 5: with you know, different sexual orientations involved. You know, if

1170
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 5: this had been you know, a gay man writing about

1171
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 5: how he loved his curvy husband, like, would we have

1172
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 5: seen that on morning talk shows?

1173
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:11,720
Speaker 1: No?

1174
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 5: Right, So you know there's not It goes way beyond

1175
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 5: this dude and his wife and their viral moment. You know,

1176
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 5: at the same time that he was going viral for that,

1177
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 5: there were you know, hundreds and and I would say

1178
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 5: thousands of men all over the country going to places

1179
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 5: like my nightclub looking for the curvy girl of their dreams, right,

1180
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 5: or looking for the super fat women of their dreams.

1181
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 5: Not just the sort of like you know, barely bigger

1182
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 5: than socially acceptable curvy girl, but like actually looking for

1183
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 5: and preferencing you know, much larger folks. And he's just like,

1184
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 5: you know, he became the poster child for something that's

1185
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 5: not just about him. And there's way more nuance in

1186
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 5: the thousands of relationships that develop out of you know,

1187
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 5: that develop with those guys, at least in some of them, right,

1188
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 5: some of them are just gonna be caricatures, And he's

1189
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:07,959
Speaker 5: kind of a character. He's kind of caricature at this point.

1190
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 5: To me, if we got to hear more stories and

1191
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 5: see more stories about fat people in love, then it

1192
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 5: wouldn't seem like such and other people in love with

1193
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 5: fat people, people of all sizes in love with fat people.

1194
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 5: Then it wouldn't seem like such a breath of fresh

1195
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:29,720
Speaker 5: air to people when we got to hear like the

1196
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 5: one guy who wrote a long caption on Instagram say

1197
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 5: that he likes his wife.

1198
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Tigris and you can read

1199
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 2: more about her work and follow her and Nafa at

1200
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:45,599
Speaker 2: the links in the description. And this concludes our two

1201
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 2: part series on the curvy wife saga. And again I

1202
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 2: realized that it is impossible to summarize the history of

1203
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 2: the fat liberation movement in the space of one podcast episode,

1204
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: so I encourage you to check out the links in

1205
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 2: the description and learn more. And to close out, I

1206
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 2: have a confession to make. I've had Big Girl Banger

1207
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 2: by Robbie Tripp stuck in my.

1208
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 3: Head for three weeks. See you next time. Here's your

1209
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 3: moment of fun. Uh got hot wife?

1210
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 6: Real nice? Oh, got a hot wife? What a good life?

1211
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 2: What a hot wife?

1212
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 6: Real nice? Hot wife?

1213
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 3: Good life?

1214
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 6: Okay, I've lost I've lost the thread. I can't Talk.

1215
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 6: This first.

1216
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 2: Sixteenth minute is a production of Pool Zone Media and iHeartRadio.

1217
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 2: It is written, posted, and produced by me Jamie Loftus.

1218
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,799
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichtman and Robert Evans reganizing.

1219
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 2: Ian Johnson is our supervising produce U and our editor.

1220
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:05,639
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Sat thirteen and Pet. Shout

1221
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,839
Speaker 2: outs to our dog producer Anderson, my cat's fleeing Casper,

1222
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 2: and my pet rock Bird, who will outlive us all

1223
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 2: by bye