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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I feel like I have a

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Speaker 1: tiny bit of a hangover, even though I didn't drink yesterday.

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Speaker 1: It was my kid's birthday, my twins' birthday yesterday.

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Speaker 2: A hangover just because of all the activity. I mean,

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Speaker 2: at first I thought, oh, good for you, Kate.

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Speaker 1: It was all the sugar. So they insist on separate

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Speaker 1: cakes and all that, and I have to try both.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what are you gonna do? It would be

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Speaker 1: impolite to not do that, So I think I have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a if you I know you

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Speaker 1: don't you're not a big sugar fan. Because of that,

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Speaker 1: I do feel hungover after sugar. I eat too much

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Speaker 1: sugar sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I pretty much cut out sweets with

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Speaker 2: one exception. But I haven't been eating sweets probably for

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Speaker 2: a decade. But every now and then I have to

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Speaker 2: have my scoop of vanilla ice cream.

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Speaker 1: That's the exception. Okay. And you said you like ice cream.

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Speaker 1: We talked about We had the whole Halloween thing where

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Speaker 1: you said that you eat candy sometimes, but it's not

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Speaker 1: really your thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, not at all. I mean I do like it.

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Speaker 2: I just want to avoid the sugar. And in part

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Speaker 2: it is, you know, sort of like you're feeling bad

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Speaker 2: the next day. I get that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. One I wanted to ask, was you are

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Speaker 1: this big time forensic investigator you have worked with the police.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what can I expect for the

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Speaker 1: age of fifteen With my twins, they have just turned fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and they are they are getting their little provisional licenses

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Speaker 1: and like I already had taught them how to drive

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Speaker 1: on our family farm. They drove everywhere on the farm,

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Speaker 1: which was terrifying. For me, So what do I expect

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Speaker 1: at age I know you've had a couple of fifteen

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Speaker 1: year olds. What do I expect to have happened at

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Speaker 1: age fifteen? Or did you have perfect children?

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Speaker 2: Of course my kids are great up, but I've had

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Speaker 2: four go through that age. Oh my gosh, you know,

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Speaker 2: two boys and two girls. You know, And I think

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Speaker 2: this is everybody's experience, whether they remember back to age

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Speaker 2: fifteen or they are dealing with kids that are at

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Speaker 2: this age. Is this is now where you know, the

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Speaker 2: teenagers are getting their independence and you know, even though

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Speaker 2: they're still your kids, they start thinking independently. The concern is,

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Speaker 2: of course, what kind of online relationships are they're getting into.

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Speaker 2: They're going to keep certain things secret because they want

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Speaker 2: their independence. And you know, I think that you know

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Speaker 2: the best and I'm not necessarily the best person to

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Speaker 2: be making these statements, but you know, in terms of recommendations,

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Speaker 2: is you just have to keep open dialogue and keep

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Speaker 2: your kids knowledgeable about, you know, sort of the kind

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Speaker 2: of the bad things that are out there without scaring them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the without scaring them part is hard.

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Speaker 1: I have one kid who is super into horror films.

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Speaker 1: Does not like true crime, it scares her too much.

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Speaker 1: But she will watch literally anything so on my mom

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Speaker 1: So they watch stuff together all the time, every kind

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Speaker 1: of slasher anything, zombie anything. And then the other kid

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Speaker 1: just really started getting into true crime. We're looking at

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Speaker 1: all of the worst roommate ever, worst ex ever, Lacy Peterson.

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Speaker 1: I mean, everything that you can think of, she'll watch

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Speaker 1: or listen to. So, yeah, they're both sort of like

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Speaker 1: I feel like they're both kind of on edge, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time there maybe they're becoming a little

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Speaker 1: desensitized to that. And we do talk about online stuff

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Speaker 1: a lot, but they are, I will say, remarkably out

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Speaker 1: of their rooms for teenagers. They are always kind of

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Speaker 1: floating around me in our living room, which is nice,

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Speaker 1: but I know that still kids can be secretive, so

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Speaker 1: I just try to always keep an eye out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and we really adopted the no electronic

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Speaker 2: devices in the bedrooms where they're isolated, you know, so

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Speaker 2: you know, they do have privacy when they're on their

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Speaker 2: electronic devices, but they also are aware that we at

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Speaker 2: any point could potentially, you know, check them out to

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Speaker 2: see what they're up to, you know, at that age,

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Speaker 2: you know, and then of course, I all my kids now,

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Speaker 2: I think my youngest she's turning seventeen this year, so

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Speaker 2: obviously now where my other kids are adults and they

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Speaker 2: do what they want and we just continue to advise them.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever use the tools at your disposal, i e.

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Speaker 1: Background checks or anything else on anybody who your kids

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Speaker 1: were hanging out with? For real? Honestly did you do that?

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Speaker 1: Because I would do it on everybody.

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Speaker 2: I can't recall anybody that my kids were interacting with,

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Speaker 2: both my older kids or younger kids, that gave me

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Speaker 2: great concern, good at all? You know what I did do?

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Speaker 2: Like when my oldest daughter, you know, she she got married,

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Speaker 2: you know, has her own kids. You know, she moved

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Speaker 2: to a new neighborhood. Of course I'm checking to see

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Speaker 2: who lives in that neighborhood, and you know, just advising her,

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Speaker 2: you know, be careful. Seems like a safe neighborhood. But

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Speaker 2: you know, in any neighborhood you potentially have people that

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Speaker 2: are registered sex offenders or have other criminal aspects to them.

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Speaker 2: But just because you can go online and see who's

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Speaker 2: living around, you don't forget that the people you don't

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Speaker 2: know about are probably the one have to be the

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Speaker 2: most concerned about, so you can't let your guard down.

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Speaker 1: Well, this has been a fantastic, light, fun little conversation

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Speaker 1: before we talk about Oh boy, what we're getting ready

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Speaker 1: to talk about. This is a two parter and you

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Speaker 1: are going to find out pretty quickly why. This is

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Speaker 1: a story that was recommended by actually several listeners. This

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Speaker 1: is set in LA, so this is sort of your

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Speaker 1: at least your state stomping grounds. And this is a

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Speaker 1: series of murders that I will tell you straight away

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Speaker 1: as a serial killer.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're what LA is known for. And you know,

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Speaker 2: even though I did my entire adult life and career

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Speaker 2: up in the Bay Area, you know, since I've retired,

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Speaker 2: I have spent a lot of time in LA for

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Speaker 2: the true crime side, you know, so I've gotten to

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Speaker 2: know LA much better than what I knew of it before.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're gonna really help me out with this story.

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Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and set the scene. Okay, nineteen fifty seven,

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles. I'm not sure we've done anything in LA.

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Speaker 1: Have we done a story in LA? I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're pretty deep into this show, So do you remember

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Speaker 1: in LA story? Not that I'm recalling Yeah, truly, La,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: We never did Black Dahlia, did we.

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Speaker 1: No? I know people would love us to do it,

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Speaker 1: and we are probably going to do it in some

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Speaker 1: form or the other, but we have not done Black Dahlia, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, So no, I think this might be the first

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Speaker 2: one we've done.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So nineteen fifty seven, Los Angeles, there is a

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Speaker 1: nineteen year old woman. Her name is Judy Ann Dull

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Speaker 1: and she's a model and she needs to make some

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Speaker 1: really fast money, which is a dangerous combination. I'm afraid.

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Speaker 1: She has a fourteen month old daughter, and she's in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a divorce and there is a big

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Speaker 1: custody dispute with the father, and so she needs money.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen boy, she needs money, and the quickest way for

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Speaker 1: her to get money as a doing some modeling. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of demand for pin up style pictures, detective magazines,

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Speaker 1: and the covers of pulp novels. Now, you have kind

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Speaker 1: of made some comments about True Detective. I know there

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Speaker 1: is controversy around the True Detective magazine covers. Will you

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Speaker 1: give me any kind of background on that? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Because they're super sexy and exploitative, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, where do I start?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, keep it brief, But tell me what

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Speaker 1: why is it such a big deal?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, you know, I you know, I can remember

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Speaker 2: the true detective magazines or the various permutations. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there is a wide variety of different titled magazines, but

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Speaker 2: they all did the same thing. And yes they told stories,

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Speaker 2: true crime stories, and some of the articles are very

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Speaker 2: well written, but the type of imagery in these magazines

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Speaker 2: was very sillacious. There's a forensic psychiatrist who has an

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Speaker 2: article out and this is doctor Park deats and these

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Speaker 2: types of magazines. He related them as porn for the

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Speaker 2: sexual sadist because of the imagery. Because the imagery generally

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Speaker 2: is depicting women in very compromising positions, scantily clad with

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Speaker 2: you know, like an offender holding a knife to their

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Speaker 2: neck or a gun at them or chasing them down.

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Speaker 2: These women are often bound, and this is the type

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Speaker 2: of imagery that serial predators that are sexual sadists enjoy

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Speaker 2: because these women are obviously you could see the fear

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Speaker 2: depicted on their face being put into this imagery of

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Speaker 2: imminent violence. And so that's something I have seen over

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Speaker 2: and over again. I've got multiple examples that as serial

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Speaker 2: predators were identified, you know, back in the seventies, and

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Speaker 2: their residents were searched. Guess what was found true detective magazines.

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Speaker 2: That's where they're getting their fantasy material.

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Speaker 1: You know. In our neighborhood in Austin. This was a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, and these residents have since moved. This

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Speaker 1: is probably five or six years ago. There were people

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Speaker 1: who lived on a major road in our neighborhood who

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Speaker 1: put up a depiction of what looked to me like

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Speaker 1: maybe like kind of a scene from Halloween or from

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Speaker 1: Friday the thirteenth, and it was a woman trying to

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Speaker 1: climb up a tree like a mannequin, definitely kind of

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Speaker 1: positioned as that sort of thing, and then someone chasing

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Speaker 1: after her. And you know, it was fake and it

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Speaker 1: was based on a movie, but it was disturbing kind

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Speaker 1: of the way that it was accurate in the way

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Speaker 1: that how terrified a woman looks right before she's being murdered.

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Speaker 1: And there was a lot of sort of protests and argument,

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Speaker 1: and finally I think they ended up taking it down.

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Speaker 1: But people were saying, I don't want to walk by

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Speaker 1: with my kid and see this kind of thing. It's

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Speaker 1: so violent looking and I don't think they meant anything

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Speaker 1: by it, but I totally get it when you see

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Speaker 1: some of those covers, and I just know you had

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Speaker 1: mentioned it before, so I wanted to clarify.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And it's just it is is a

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Speaker 2: particular type of imagery that does select type of offender

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Speaker 2: that not only do they get sexual gratification of looking

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Speaker 2: at that imagery, but it feeds their fantasy and it

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Speaker 2: can guide them on how they want to commit their crimes.

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Speaker 1: Well, Judy is someone who is a pin up model,

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Speaker 1: so she does that sort of thing. She is just

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Speaker 1: so you know, about five foot four, so probably not

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Speaker 1: a runway model, but she does do this photography one

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten pounds. So let's get back to the story.

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Speaker 1: She is in an apartment in West Hollywood and she's

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Speaker 1: with two other models. They're all young, eighteen to twenty two.

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Speaker 1: And Judy we don't know a lot about her as

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Speaker 1: far as her personality goes, but she's going through a

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Speaker 1: rough divorce and she needs money. So on Thursday, August first,

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Speaker 1: one of Judy's roommates has a gig she can make

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Speaker 1: this modeling gig, so she tells Judy, will you take

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Speaker 1: it for me? And Judy says yes, and a photographer

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Speaker 1: comes to the apartment to pick up Judy and he's

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Speaker 1: going to drive her to a photo studio for a shoot.

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Speaker 1: This would have been typical in nineteen fifty seven for

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Speaker 1: you know, the photographer to come and escort the person

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Speaker 1: to a studio. So I don't think anybody thought anything

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Speaker 1: of this. But when she doesn't come home that night,

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Speaker 1: her roommate Betty Carver, who's about eighteen, calls the photos

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Speaker 1: studio that the photographer left behind this phone number and

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Speaker 1: it's actually for a private residence and that people who

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Speaker 1: answer the phone have no idea what she's talking about.

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Speaker 1: So now she's worried.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this wasn't the photographer's own residence. He gave

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Speaker 2: her a false address.

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Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, a false phone number for this studio. So

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Speaker 1: Betty freaks out and she calls the police and says,

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Speaker 1: my roommate's missing. And it's great because for me, it's

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Speaker 1: good to hear this because she acts really quickly, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you and I talk about this sometimes, boy,

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Speaker 1: it takes forever for people to call the police. I've

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Speaker 1: actually been surprised in some of our cases that I

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Speaker 1: will say are quite old, where the parents kind of

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Speaker 1: just wait and wait, where the friends just wait and wait,

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Speaker 1: and it feels like it's much longer than twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think it's Naivety. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's the time period, but Betty jumps on it. She's

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Speaker 1: very concerned. So I had thought, I wonder if Betty

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Speaker 1: has encountered sleazy photographers as a model in the past

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Speaker 1: and was sort of always on guard.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say that that's probably a good chance,

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Speaker 2: you know. But it's also you know, when we start

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Speaker 2: talking about reporting somebody missing, it's the circumstances, you know.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes, and I think in some of these older cases,

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Speaker 2: you know, the societal culture within the time periods we've

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Speaker 2: talked about, Oh, you let your kids go out and

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Speaker 2: play and they come home at certain times, etc. And

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Speaker 2: so it takes a while for somebody recognize that, oh,

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Speaker 2: something is off, something's not right here. Betty knew that

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Speaker 2: Judy was going to go with a in essence, this photographer,

256
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Speaker 2: and that the general I would say, the business transaction

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00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 2: should have occurred that day, and Judy should have come home,

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Speaker 2: and when she doesn't come home, Betty's going, uh oh,

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Speaker 2: something's up.

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Speaker 1: And I was wondering why she didn't take somebody with her.

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Speaker 1: Taking a female friend or even a male friend will

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Speaker 1: not stop certain offenders, obviously, but it would have maybe

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Speaker 1: deterred him. I think this is the first time that

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Speaker 1: they had met this man, so I don't know. Again,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're definitely not thinking about blaming the victim.

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Speaker 1: It's just sort of I guess they felt like they

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Speaker 1: were comfortable enough where she could go by herself. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: this was a dicey situation.

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Speaker 2: I've just seen over and over from not as far

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Speaker 2: back in time as nineteen fifty seven, but from the

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Speaker 2: particularly the nineteen seventies, where individuals would just go and

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Speaker 2: meet potential employers, you know, by themselves, you know, including

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Speaker 2: I've got one one gal who went to meet serial

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Speaker 2: killer Roger Kibbi in his van in a parking lot,

275
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Speaker 2: and his excuse was, well, my office is being built,

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Speaker 2: you know, was at a shopping center that was under construction.

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Speaker 2: My office is being built here, you know, let's just

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Speaker 2: meet in my vehicle. It's almost that we were naive

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Speaker 2: about how predators operated and the victims just didn't recognize that.

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Speaker 2: Predators took advantage of this naivity, you know, and thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I'll be good. I'll just go meet with this guy.

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Speaker 2: He'll take me to a studio, take photos of me,

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Speaker 2: and then I get paid and I go back to

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Speaker 2: my apartment. I'm sure that's what Judy thought.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of my girls we were talking about

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Speaker 1: a true crime story and one of my girls was

287
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Speaker 1: just floored that people used to hitchhike. She still can't

288
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Speaker 1: wrap her head around that. How would you ever get

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Speaker 1: into a stranger's car. I never did hitchhike, but it

290
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Speaker 1: was a very prevalent part of a culture, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people felt comfortable with it, even though we

292
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Speaker 1: do know that throughout history people have been snatched off

293
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Speaker 1: the road through hitch hiking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is part where your predators

295
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,360
Speaker 2: go to where the praise at. Yeah, you know. So

296
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Speaker 2: you know, for predators. See, let's say it's not just women.

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Speaker 2: I mean men were hitch hiking. Men were being victimized

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Speaker 2: as well, but women were the primary targets, you know.

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Speaker 2: And then as time went on, people understood, oh, you know,

300
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Speaker 2: this is dangerous, it's so dangerous that now culturally, you

301
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,080
Speaker 2: rarely see women hitchhiking. Today, you see men hitchhiking, but

302
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 2: you don't see women as as frequently as what was

303
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 2: happening back in the sixties and the nineteen seventies. And

304
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 2: it's because people started to recognize this is a bad scenario,

305
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 2: because the predators are now going, well, I'm just going

306
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Speaker 2: to go pick somebody who's going to voluntarily get in

307
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Speaker 2: my car. I don't have to get out and grab them.

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Speaker 2: You know, it makes it easy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Now I want to talk about witness descriptions. Okay,

310
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Speaker 1: because Betty, the roommate, tells the police when they respond,

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Speaker 1: it's the sheriff's deputy. When the sheriff's deputy response, she says, listen,

312
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Speaker 1: I got a great look at this guy, and I

313
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Speaker 1: can tell you exactly what he looks like. So she

314
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Speaker 1: says he is five foot nine, he has an olive complexion,

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Speaker 1: he wears horn rimmed glasses, and he weighs about one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty pounds. She says his name was Johnny Glenn.

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Speaker 1: That's what he said his name was. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't know yet Johnny Glenn. You know, if he's involved,

319
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Speaker 1: or if this is just somebody who encounters a would

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Speaker 1: be victim and you know, somebody else meets with her

321
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Speaker 1: later on. But this description seems pretty specific. And I

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Speaker 1: know we've talked about kind of the inaccuracies of eyewitness

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Speaker 1: descriptions in the past. What do you think about Betty's

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00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,359
Speaker 1: description five to nine all of complexion, glasses, one fifty,

325
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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty pounds.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, she's giving some pretty straightforward descriptors. It's

327
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Speaker 2: not vague, it's not oh, you know, five seven to

328
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Speaker 2: five eleven, one hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds.

329
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Speaker 2: It seems like she's pretty solid in terms of this

330
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Speaker 2: is how big this guy is. He's got all of

331
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Speaker 2: complex at skin. She's recognizing or is able to recall

332
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Speaker 2: the type of glasses. I'm just kind of curious. It

333
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Speaker 2: was originally Betty that was supposed to meet with this photographers.

334
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Speaker 2: Do we know how she initially ran across him? Was

335
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Speaker 2: like an ad in the classifieds?

336
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Speaker 1: You know, it was one of their roommates. So there

337
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 1: were three women living together, so it could have been

338
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: the third roommate and she wasn't there, But I'm not

339
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 1: sure if it was a classified situation or not. But

340
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Speaker 1: I do think we get a little bit more information

341
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 1: further down about you know, this photographer and kind of

342
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 1: where how he connects with victims.

343
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because obviously, you know, if he's given a false

344
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Speaker 2: phone number that goes to a residence, we don't know

345
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,239
Speaker 2: the address of the studio where we took Judy. You know,

346
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Speaker 2: now investigatively, you're going to have to backtrack as to Okay,

347
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,360
Speaker 2: how does you know the resident within this apartment come

348
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 2: across this photographer, How does that business transaction occur? And

349
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 2: what can be discerned from the information from that initial

350
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 2: transaction prior to Judy going with this photographer.

351
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Speaker 1: Well, Betty's instincts set off alarm bells with her with

352
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,919
Speaker 1: Johnny Glenn, the photographer. She says, there's something off about

353
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Speaker 1: this guy. But you know, she said, see a Judy

354
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,639
Speaker 1: and Judy left. She says that Johnny told Judy that

355
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 1: he wanted to shoot her for pin ups. But Betty

356
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,400
Speaker 1: thought it was weird because he told Judy to bring

357
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 1: a selection of street clothes with her, which she did,

358
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Speaker 1: and Betty just thought that was really weird. Why would

359
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 1: she need street clothes as well as you know, something

360
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 1: that a pin up girl would wear, and then the

361
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: clothing that she was using. If it was just going

362
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 1: to be a shoot that was a couple of hours,

363
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 1: why would he say street clothes?

364
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Speaker 2: You know that may, at least on the surface, may

365
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 2: be something where this photographer has got a model, And

366
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,640
Speaker 2: it's just an absolute okay, if I'm going to have

367
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,479
Speaker 2: this this woman posing for me, even though I have

368
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,959
Speaker 2: maybe a customer that's going to be buying pin up

369
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 2: photos from me, I might as well take advantage of

370
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 2: this model and take other more standard photos for whatever

371
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 2: customer that photographer may have. It may be an innocent thing,

372
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 2: right now, I have no idea.

373
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Speaker 1: Well, the timing of all of this is very strange

374
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Speaker 1: because Judy is actually due in court for this custody

375
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Speaker 1: hearing with the man that she's divorcing, and this fourteen

376
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 1: month old little girl, so she has been missing for

377
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: a few days. The Sheriff's department is investigating, but they

378
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: don't really have very much to go off of, right

379
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: there's no CCTV, there's no cell phones anything like that.

380
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: They're having a hard time tracing this guy. But the

381
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: newspapers pick up the story because she's a missing mom

382
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 1: who is a model, and they start digging in and

383
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: find out about this custody hearing, and the journalists start

384
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,200
Speaker 1: to speculate that she is really just trying to skip

385
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: down and not go to this custody hearing for some reason.

386
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 1: This is totally baseless. You know, maybe they were accusing

387
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: her of maybe not having enough money and kind of

388
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: throwing up her hands and giving up, But her family

389
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,199
Speaker 1: said absolutely in her roommate said she was planning to

390
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 1: be there, that she really wanted at least joint custody,

391
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: full custody of this little girl. A week later, after

392
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 1: she goes missing, is the hearing, and she is not

393
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: at the hearing, so the judge grants custody of the

394
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: little girl to the estranged husband, who is currently living

395
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: with his brother and his sister in law. The husband

396
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: perked my ears up a little bit before, I I mean,

397
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 1: I really try to kind of go into the story

398
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: thinking about who all the possible suspects could be, because

399
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: obviously this seems like Taylor made for an estranged husband

400
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: killing the wife so that he could get custody of

401
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: the little girl. But her ex husband is very worried.

402
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: He said, I don't think she would have skipped this.

403
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: I think something happened and that could have been all

404
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 1: for show. But man, the timing is really weird. If

405
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: the husband is not involved in her disappearance somehow.

406
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 2: Well, you know, at this point, we really don't know

407
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 2: what happened to Judy. We know she went to meet

408
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 2: up with this photographer. He picked her up, so at

409
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: least you know that there was that that connection had

410
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: been made. But after that point we don't know. Did

411
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 2: Judy finish the photography and did you know, did the

412
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 2: husband swing by? Was it pre arranged for her to

413
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: be picked up to take him back home, or you know,

414
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: do something else? Sounds like the state of the relationship

415
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: probably not. Did the husband follow the photographer out to

416
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: where Judy's at with bad intent? You know? And so

417
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 2: when Judy gets released, you know, he snatches her and

418
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: kills her. I mean, I think at this point it's

419
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: wide open. But obviously the investigatively, they have to possibly

420
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: figure out where the husband was, you know that day

421
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: that Judy went missing. Interview him, but you still have

422
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: to identify this photographer. This is the last person Judy

423
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 2: has seen with.

424
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me a little bit about you know, they say,

425
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: sort of the first forty eight hours. I would say,

426
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: would you think statistically that the longer this goes on,

427
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: the worse the news would be no matter what time

428
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 1: period we're talking about, right, I mean, is it really

429
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: like a kind of a rule that statistically things go

430
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: down really down fast after forty eight hours on being

431
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: able to locate somebody alive.

432
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 2: Well, it all is dependent upon the case and the

433
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: case circumstances. So when you start talking about cases that

434
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: you have a greater likelihood of them being solved within

435
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: the first forty eight hours. Oftentimes those are cases in

436
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 2: which there is a connection between the victim and the

437
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: offender and they are able to very rapidly do an

438
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: investigation and drill down onto somebody. As time goes on,

439
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: now the offender can separate themselves both temporarily as well

440
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: as distance wise geographic, from the crime itself and from

441
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: the connection to the victim, it does get harder, However,

442
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 2: I would not I know, you know, there's like the

443
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: TV show The First forty eight which I actually loved,

444
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: you know, it shows reality, right, but I would not

445
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: put any statistic on it. Obviously, there's criminologists that study

446
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: this type of thing, and they'll say, yeah, you know,

447
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 2: if you identify a suspect within the first forty eight

448
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 2: then you've got a much greater likelihood of solving the case.

449
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: But they're not teasing out the finer contextual details of

450
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: the each case separately because certain types of cases, the

451
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 2: solvability remains, but it takes longer for the investigation to

452
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: get to the point where now you can build probable

453
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: cause against the suspect. If that makes any type of sense,

454
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: you can't just say, oh, you know, if you don't

455
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 2: solve the case within the first forty eight hours, then

456
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: you have a ninety five percent less likelihood of being

457
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: able to solve the case. I just don't buy that.

458
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: Well, the trail goes cold for Judy, you know, just

459
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: weeks after she disappears. They're going to keep trying to

460
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: work the case, but they don't know where she is.

461
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: Her ex husband is worried. I was thinking about something

462
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: and I want to ask you about an emerging technology

463
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: because I was watching Gosh. I mean, I feel like

464
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: all I do is teach, write, do podcasts with you,

465
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: or consume true crime, and you know, deal with my kids.

466
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: And I was watching and then reading a case about

467
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: a technology they called an emerging technology that I thought

468
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: would have been interesting with this case where it's happening

469
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, the geofencing stuff. Yeah, so I

470
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: had never heard of that. Will you explain it? So

471
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: it's like I'm thinking, whoever this photographer is shows up

472
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: at the door and then leaves, and police would be

473
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 1: able to try to figure out if he had a

474
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: cell phone today? Who has a cell phone in this

475
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: like block two block radius and start investigating those people.

476
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: Is that how geofencing kind of works?

477
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: It does, and that's so cool. I have to be

478
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: somewhat careful about what I say about geo fencing. You know.

479
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 2: This is something like when I was an FBI Task

480
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: Force officer. Of course, you know, the FEDS had technologies

481
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: that were being deployed in casework that were somewhat sensitive technologies,

482
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: and geofencing since that time has somewhat come into the

483
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 2: public domain and public has become more aware of it,

484
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: and it's become controversial because in essence, this is where

485
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: geo fencing you can put a let's say a boundary

486
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: over a geographic area and say I want to identify

487
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: all the smart devices that have location services turned on

488
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 2: within this area during this timeframe. This has been huge

489
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: at solving cases. However, let's say you were to draw

490
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: that boundary several city blocks downtown Manhattan. How many innocent

491
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: people are you scooping up within that geograph area during

492
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: that timeframe? And so many people look at this as

493
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: a as a Big Brother scenario. And now there's requirements

494
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 2: for search warrants making sure that you have a magistrate

495
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: that is overlooking you know what you are asking for

496
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: and saying Nope, that's overreaching, or will grant that. And

497
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: you know, Google has also come out saying that they're

498
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: going to get rid of the data, which just kills me,

499
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 2: you know, because this is such a valuable tool when

500
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: the case circumstances are appropriate for it to be used.

501
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: Wow. Well I was impressed because it felt like sort

502
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: of like the reverse of I don't know what to

503
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: how to even explain it, Like if you have a

504
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: suspect and you're able to figure out where their cell

505
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: phone is pinging, Now it's like the opposite. It's like, Okay,

506
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: well here's my victim, where my victim was dumped? Who

507
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: has been in this area? Is that kind of a

508
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: good example of how you would use it.

509
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me give you a I'm gonna

510
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: call it a high pathetical scenario, but it's potentially a reality.

511
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: Is the Delphi case with the two young girls. They

512
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 2: definitely had a cell phone. They captured video of this

513
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: man walking across a railroad trestle coming at them. This

514
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: was in a relatively unpopulated area. They're at sort of

515
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: a park area that has very few people in there.

516
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: With something like a geo fence, you can say, give

517
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: me all the smart devices within this area, and you

518
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: could literally see the girl's smart device and the killer

519
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: smart device in essence pair up the killer approaching the girls,

520
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: and the girls were removed a distance from where that

521
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: railroad trestle was, and you could see the offender's smart

522
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: device also move with the girl's device. So it becomes

523
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: very compelling with the type of information as you tabulate

524
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: the information during the investigation. That is a scenario, and

525
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: again I'm just saying that's just a hypothetical scenario with Delphi,

526
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: but that is a scenario in which geo fencing is

527
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: an amazing technology and doesn't intrude upon you know this,

528
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: this idea that you're just you know, fishing and scooping

529
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: up a whole bunch of innocence people's locations.

530
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: But you said location services has to be on for

531
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: this to work. Is that right.

532
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to come off as an expert in

533
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: this technology, but it does in part utilize location services.

534
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: This is very different than cell phones ping and off

535
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: of cell towers. You know, you get much more granular

536
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: information from location services. If you've ever you know, used

537
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: Google Maps and it shows you exactly where you're at

538
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: on the freeway within a certain you know, margin of error, Well,

539
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: that's kind of the granular data you can get utilizing

540
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: a geofence.

541
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: Because I was thinking this is probably best used before

542
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: a murder happens, right, Like, if this is a crime

543
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: of passion murder and the killer is not expecting to

544
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: have to turn on location services, they're gonna be smart

545
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: enough to turn off the phone or take the SIM

546
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: card out and not bring the phone with them and

547
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: all of that. I think the case that I saw

548
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: it was who was hanging out with this guy at

549
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: the time, That was really what it was. I'm sure

550
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: before it entered anybody's mind to kill him. So does

551
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: that make sense to you that it's sort of like

552
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: a before the event happens, because when the event is

553
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: happening or after the murder is happening, I'm assuming the

554
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: killer is trying to get smart and start turning things off.

555
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: Oh that's just so variable, because.

556
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: They're stupid sometimes, thank god, exactly. Well, I know this

557
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: was a long detour, but sometimes I'd like to I

558
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: would like to actually even more bring in some of

559
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: the new tools that I'm learning about and running past

560
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: you and anything that you have heard about, Like we

561
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about AI. Because you now have

562
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: the inside lane here with Othrum, it's a reminder to

563
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: me of what a disadvantage the police are at in

564
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven trying to find this woman, you.

565
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: Know, for sure, you know that's where you know. Of course,

566
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: over the course of my career with the types of cases,

567
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: I saw the progress of technology, you know, and what

568
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: we could do. You know, from let's say, starting out

569
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: in the mid nineties to when I retired in twenty

570
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: and eighteen, you know, the huge advances in technology, not

571
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: only just your typical forensic technology, but the high tech,

572
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: the pervasive cameras, the surveillance if you will that that

573
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: is out there. It is harder and harder for somebody

574
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: to move around and get away with committing a crime

575
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: without leaving some sort of evidence that law enforcement can

576
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: utilize in order to catch them. But in nineteen fifty seven,

577
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: they're so handicapped relative to today.

578
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's get back to the case. In nineteen

579
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: fifty seven, Judy Doll is missing. We have no idea

580
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: who this photographer is. And we are now at the

581
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: end of December, so this is five months later. And boy,

582
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: I hate it when kids are the ones that make

583
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: these terrible discoveries. I feel like this is the twentieth

584
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: story of kids that I've told of kids stumbling onto

585
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, really awful scenes from my book American Sherlock

586
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: Bessie Ferguson case you and I talked about. A little

587
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: kid was the one who found the scalp with the

588
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: ear attached that Oscar Heinrich had to use to try

589
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: to identify. It's just awful. But they're poking around and

590
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: doing stuff, you.

591
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: Know, that's just set. The kids are going out, they're

592
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: going to places where adults don't want to go. You know,

593
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: let's say, like down into the muddy marsh so they

594
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: can play and find the frogs or whatever they're they're

595
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: up to. And yeah, time and time again. Off, you

596
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: do have children discovering remains, just because they're the ones

597
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: that are out there doing their thing.

598
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: The kids and the recycling the bottle, the bottle and

599
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: the canned collectors, right, you had said that too. Those

600
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: are also people who tend to run across bodies and

601
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: I said rowers on the on the legs and the rivers.

602
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the bottle collector. You know obviously that that

603
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: one is one that I've seen over and over again

604
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: from these older cases, just because you have people that

605
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: are scouring the creek beds looking for, you know, bottles

606
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: after a storm, after the water has rushed through old

607
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: bottles that had been discarded you know, way back in

608
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: the day. That have all said and appeared.

609
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: Well, unfortunately, these two little boys are I'm sure have

610
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: never forgotten this. They are ten and thirteen. They are

611
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: out hunting dove nests in the Hollywood Hills, pair of brothers.

612
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: They find bones, so this is five months later. They

613
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: find bones that look like a forearm, a wrist in

614
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: a hand. They take the bones to their neighbor, not

615
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: the parents. The neighbor. Maybe the parents weren't home, and

616
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: he's a doctor who thinks that they belonged to a

617
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: small adult, probably a woman. The police take the bones

618
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: to a different physician, not a corner. It sounds like

619
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: a medical examiner, a different doctor who says that he

620
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: thinks the bones have been exposed for less than five years.

621
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: He says, because there's still skin on the hand, is

622
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: that a good assessment? That's another little aside, is it?

623
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 1: What do you think about that skin on the hand?

624
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: Does that mean anything?

625
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: Well, if there is any tissue, then it is variable

626
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: in terms of how long the tissue is going to persist.

627
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: But if this is you know, let's say the lower

628
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: arm bones and the hand, and it's actually surface, you know,

629
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: you do have the environmental insults. You have decomposition. You

630
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: have environmental insults, whether it be you know, the sun

631
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: desiccating the tissue. You have rain moisture that's going to

632
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: allow you know, bacteria and other microorganisms to further degrade

633
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: this tissue. Of course, you have carnivorous animals and insects

634
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: that will go after it. If her arm this I'm

635
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: assuming this is Judy, her arm is exposed then and

636
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: on the surface have all this stuff going on. But

637
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: if it's during the warm, warmer months, it's possible she

638
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 2: mummified and then now you get almost like a raw

639
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: hide with the skin, and then that can persist for

640
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: a longer period of time. If she does mummify. For

641
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 2: the pathologist or this doctor to say, you know, within

642
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: five years, that's probably as good as you can say

643
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: with just that limited type of information that he's evaluating,

644
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: just because of the variability of how long it takes

645
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: for a body to fully skeletonize.

646
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: Well, I had wondered in nineteen fifty seven, how would

647
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: they identify her? Judy is one of several missing women

648
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: in LA and I thought, well, how would they even

649
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: do that in nineteen fifty seven. I mean, now what

650
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: it would be DNA? I'm assuming right.

651
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be DNA, But there's still the tried

652
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: and trude methods, you know, dental comparisons as well as

653
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: radiographic comparisons where let's say Judy had had a broken

654
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: leg during life and there are some X rays of

655
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 2: that and these remains have the same fracture. You know,

656
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 2: a radiologist or an anthropologist today could look at, you know,

657
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: the healing of the bone, the way the bone healed,

658
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: the various random features that develop within everybody's bones, and

659
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: go this this, let's say, femur of these remains matches

660
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: the femur of Judy while she was alive, after it

661
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: was taken, you know, when when she broke her legs,

662
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 2: as a hypothetical scenario, and there could be unusual things,

663
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 2: you know, tattoos. Yeah, you know, if you if you

664
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: have the remains with a very unusual tattoo and you

665
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 2: have photos of that tattoo on the victim during life,

666
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: that can also be used. So there's a variety of

667
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: other mechanisms that are still utilized today in addition to DNA.

668
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: You know, I was reading a little bit about the

669
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: radiocarbon dating being used to test on the human bone,

670
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: whether it's ancient or modern, and I did not know

671
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: this that it's helpful, because in the fifties and the

672
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: sixties there was a massive spike in radiocarbon in the

673
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: atmosphere because of the nuclear testing, and that's been some

674
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: sort of a I don't know if it's like a

675
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 1: touchstone or what that is where it makes it much

676
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: more useful to be able to figure out, you know,

677
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: who the person is or someone's age. Does that sound

678
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: right to you?

679
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, and radioisotope analysis is a fascinating forensic tool.

680
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: And whether it's you're dealing with the carbon aging, which

681
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: generally is are you dealing with ancient remains like indigenous remains,

682
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: or are you dealing with somebody who's modern. And of

683
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: course throughout geologic history, there's all these various alterations to

684
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: these radio isotopes in any particular environment that as we live,

685
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: we absorb the ratio of these different radioisotopes into our body.

686
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: And so expert when they do this radioisotope analysis will

687
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: look for those types of kind of those weird anomalous

688
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 2: aspects to help determine what they can What does this

689
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: mean in terms of the radioisotopic analysis, You know, part

690
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: of it is let's say, yeah, human remains that are

691
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: recovered in Florida, but they do radio isotopic analysis and

692
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 2: they note that, oh, hold on, you know, the radioisotopes

693
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: don't match what we expect for somebody who lived their

694
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: entire life in Florida. It's more consistent with somebody from

695
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: the Seattle area something like that, and so now investigators

696
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: can focus on missing persons out of Seattle to see

697
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 2: if any of them match up with this the set

698
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: of unidentified human remains found in Florida. It's something that

699
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: it's a really cool tool, but it really isn't utilized

700
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: that frequently.

701
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: Well, we cannot identify whether these bones belong to Judy

702
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: as of right now.

703
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: So they only find the lower arm bones and handbones.

704
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: They don't find the rest of her remains at this time.

705
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: That's right. Right now, they have just found a fore arm,

706
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: wrist in a hand with skin, a little bit skin

707
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: on the hand and that's it. So I'm assuming what

708
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: scavengers animals have taken care of the rest.

709
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: You know potentially or the you know, the arm was

710
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: drug away by a you know, carnivorous animal of decent size,

711
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: like you know, a coyote in the Hollywood Hills, and

712
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: so the rest of this these remains could be a

713
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: distance away, possibly buried. There is the possibility of, let's say,

714
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: especially like somebody Judy size, where you could have certain

715
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: types of animals, notably like wild hog that will consume

716
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: bone and all and they eat carry on or you know,

717
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: dead remains, that's just you know. I have, you know,

718
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: one case, Zona Fairchild in which only her skull was found,

719
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: and that was in the Los Gatos Hills. She was

720
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: a young girl that was murdered, and I became very

721
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 2: very close with her mom. But part of my early

722
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 2: thrust into Sianna's case was to find the rest of her.

723
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: But then when I saw that, you know, you had

724
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: the wild boar you know in this area. It's like

725
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: if she was a surface deposit and her killer, Kurtistine

726
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: Anderson said, yes, she was a surface deposit. Chances are

727
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 2: she was consumed except for her skull.

728
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: Ah, well that's all I think we end up having

729
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: from whoever that victim is. But we're now looking at

730
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: let's see August so Soti murderers and Regina Firmark seven

731
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: months you heard me do math seven months later. So

732
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: this is, as I said before, a serial killer case.

733
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: And now we're on victim number two, who is Shirley Bridgeford.

734
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: She is going through a lonely hearts club and it's

735
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: a social club where it's not like a bunch of

736
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: people meet and they're mingling around. They actually set you

737
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: up with a date it's a blind date. So this

738
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: man she's never met shows up at her mom's house

739
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: it sounds like, and picks her up. They're going, you know,

740
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: out to dinner, and he introduces him himself as George

741
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: Williams and he says he lives in Pasadena, and then

742
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: Shirley never comes home.

743
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: Wow, you know, in some ways, it's sort of like

744
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: the dating apps today. Now, what I'm keying in on

745
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: is he's picking Shirley up at her house. You know,

746
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: does he come to the door, does the mom see him,

747
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: does mom see his car, do neighbors see him? You know,

748
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: at there's a level of risk that he's taking. If

749
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: this George Williams is Shirley's killer, you know, he's not

750
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: being very careful right as opposed to today oftentimes predators

751
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: are going to you know, I always say lore and

752
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: isolate and the more sophisticated, intelligent offenders are going to

753
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: think enough ahead of time to minimize you know, them

754
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: being identified and wouldn't be going to the victim's house

755
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: and being seen in her neighborhood with their own car

756
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: and their own you know, license plate, you know, on

757
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: So that's that's interesting that if this George Williams is

758
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: this killer that he has put a higher level of

759
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 2: risk with how he is physically connecting with Shirley.

760
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, Shirley's mother calls the police,

761
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: and the police respond and they start getting descriptions. And

762
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: what's fascinating about the descriptions are they're pretty different. So

763
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: we have to kind of do some comparisons. Number One,

764
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: compare the description of the man who picked up Judy

765
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: the photographer, because we know that this is a serial

766
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: killer case, and we know these cases are connected. I

767
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: spoiled all that earlier. Then we've got Shirley's mom and

768
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: sister are both and they meet George Williams. They give

769
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: a description, George Williams, Paul has gone on a date

770
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: before through this Lonely Hearts club, didn't kill the woman.

771
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: She gave a description. So these are varying descriptions, and

772
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: I have the sketches, and the sketches are you can

773
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: tell me what you think about that. So now I

774
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: kind of circle right back to the accuracy because you know,

775
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: I can I can give you the description of what

776
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: Shirley's mom and sisters say George Williams look like. So

777
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: let me tell you the description, so I'll remind you.

778
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: And this is the benefit of knowing that this is

779
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: indeed the same man. Let me remind you of the

780
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: description from Betty of the man who picked up her

781
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: friend Judy. So Betty says that the guy was five nine,

782
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: all of complexion, he had horned room glasses, and he

783
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: was about one hundred and fifty pounds. Yes, so Shirley's

784
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: mom says that this guy was between twenty five and

785
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: thirty five years old. He was six feet tall and

786
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: had brown hair and a mustache and blue eyes. She

787
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: said he wore glasses. So the Lonely Hearts Club says,

788
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: this guy actually was a lot shorter. He was between

789
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: five seven and five nine, clean shaven, but no glasses.

790
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: So we have three different descriptions for someone who we

791
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: eventually know is the same man.

792
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: And none of this is concerning to me in terms

793
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: of the variants between these descriptions from these different witnesses.

794
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: You know, estimation of height, you know, that's sometimes is

795
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 2: dependent upon the witness's own stature and how close they

796
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 2: actually got to the person they are describing. And even

797
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: if they're close to somebody, you know, let's say you

798
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 2: take a five foot woman and asks them to estimate

799
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: the height of a man that's taller than them by

800
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: ten inches or more, you're going to see a pretty

801
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: wide variance. You know, they're looking up at this guy,

802
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: and it's you know, it just all depends on that

803
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: particular witness's own personal abilities, age range, you know, that's

804
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: that's not of concern, you know, in terms of you

805
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 2: know how he's obviously not an older guy, you know,

806
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: but twenty five to thirty five, maybe he's twenty two

807
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: to forty, you know, just but then things like clean

808
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: shaven versus mustache. I mean, he utilized Lonely Hearts Club

809
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: before to date this woman, and then time has passed,

810
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: you know, Facial hair can come and go, you know.

811
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: So you have that temporal aspect in which somebody's a

812
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 2: physical appearance is changing, as is you know, their complexion,

813
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 2: you know, winter versus summer, does this sky tan doesn't tan?

814
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,919
Speaker 2: You know, fundamentally, sort of the three descriptions they all

815
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: fall within. I would say just a normal parameter that

816
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 2: one person could be described as by three different witnesses.

817
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: You don't have somebody saying this guy six foot ten

818
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: or he's four foot nine. He's just right in the

819
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: middle of the average Caucasian male here in the United States.

820
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: Let me show you the sketches real quick. So here

821
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: are the sketches, and someone does mention a mustache, but

822
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: I mean a mustache could easily be shaved off. Obviously.

823
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: He went on the date with the woman who he

824
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: didn't kill two weeks beforehand. So I don't know what

825
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: happened with that. I don't know if he intended to

826
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: kill her and decided he didn't want to or what.

827
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: But the woman said he was a perfect gentleman. And

828
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: here are the two sketches, which of course look incredibly similar.

829
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I you know, first thing I'm noticing is

830
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: that this was the sketches appeared in a local newspaper

831
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 2: March fifteenth, nineteen fifty eight. That's ten years before my

832
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: actual birth date. Ah right, the IDEs of March a

833
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: decade before. No, but I see these two sketches and

834
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: the sketch on the left. Actually, you know, I would

835
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: say I am surprised at how remarkably similar these two

836
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: sketches are. From it appears that this man has sort

837
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: of a narrow face with a you know, somewhat prominent nose,

838
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: high forehead, you know, the hairline, and both sketches is

839
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: roughly the same. Proportions of the height of the face

840
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: with the face, even the way that the ears protrude

841
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: are consistent. You know, there are some visual differences, but

842
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: at first glance, you know, structurally, morphologically, I guess would

843
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 2: be the term i'd use. These look very similar. The

844
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: sketch on the right shows the man with the glasses on.

845
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 2: But I guess I was expecting to see something that

846
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: was between these two sketches that would be completely different.

847
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: And I'm at least to my eyes, you know, and

848
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: everybody perceives things differently, but to my eyes, I'm going, wow,

849
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: you know, this could be the same person.

850
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: And I had wondered, I we've never talked about sketch

851
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: artists before, but I had wondered, well, what if it's

852
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: the same sketch artist and he or she is hearing

853
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,760
Speaker 1: these details again? And it's sort of sort of falling

854
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: into not a rut, but you know, they're kind of

855
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: they have like a playbook. But this to me does

856
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: not look like the same artist doing the one on

857
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: the left versus the one. It's a totally different aesthetic.

858
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: I think, you know, the one on the right doesn't

859
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: look very finished, and you could tell that it's just

860
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: to me, it looks like a different style. And if

861
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: that's the case, they are very similar and very accurate

862
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: as witnesses.

863
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and sketch artists. You know, there's a

864
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: wide variety of skill sets, and some of the sketches

865
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 2: from the Golden State Killer series, you could see some

866
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: of them look like you know, kids drawing the sketches

867
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: with crayon basically versus you know, bona fide artists. But

868
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 2: it takes more than just being able to draw good

869
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,399
Speaker 2: You have to be able to interpret somebody's description. And

870
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: this is such a hard thing to you know, sit

871
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 2: down and describe a face. You know, that is very

872
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 2: hard to do. And the best sketch artists are ones

873
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: that are able to really work with the witness and

874
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 2: refine their sketches until that witness is like, yes, that's

875
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: the person that I saw. But there is concern that

876
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 2: if you're utilizing the same sketch artists, let's say, in

877
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: a series sort of what you're talking about is that

878
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: are you going to have somebody who's biased from a

879
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: previous sketch and a previous witness going, oh, this sounds

880
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: like the same person and alters subconsciously their sketch. And

881
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: I agree with you. These two sketches look like two

882
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: different artists. And the fact that they overlap so much

883
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: in these gross features of this man's face, I think

884
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: gives greater veracity that this is really within the you know,

885
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: the spectrum, as close as it can be as to

886
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: what the actual person looks like.

887
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: The city council is really ticked off, and there's a

888
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: councilman who wants to investigate the Lone Hearts Club because

889
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: they find out that the address that George Williams gave

890
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: in Pasadena is not an accurate address. They say he

891
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: does not live here. We have no idea who that is.

892
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: As I said, he went on a date a couple

893
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: of weeks beforehand, and the date said that everything went

894
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: really well and it was no big deal and he

895
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: was a total gentleman. You know. Now we've got these

896
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 1: two women who have gone missing. They are it seems

897
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: like very similar. There's similar the women are similar heights,

898
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: and they are similar weights. And I know that you

899
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: said that that is not a thing and that that

900
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: is a little bit more overblown than it should be.

901
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 1: Right that serial killers have a real specific type.

902
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 2: Killers may have an idealized victim in their fantasy. However,

903
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: in reality, in terms of getting access to victims, it's

904
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: very hard to just find one victim after another that

905
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: meets this idealized image, and so they often will take

906
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 2: whatever victim that they can get, you know, and that's

907
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 2: where you do see this huge variance in terms of

908
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: the physical characteristics of the victims or the age characteristics

909
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: of the victims, et cetera, from the same offender. Now,

910
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 2: it's interesting the utilization of this Lonely Hearts club because

911
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: he does go out on a prior.

912
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: Date and doesn't do anything.

913
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would venture this was a trial run. He

914
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: hadn't utilized the Lonely Hearts club before, so he had

915
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: to gain familiarity with the actual process of how he

916
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: would be able to, you know, utilize the club, see

917
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 2: if he could get away by anonymizing using a you know,

918
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: a fake name, fake address, and then how the connection

919
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: with the victim actually went and everything else. So I

920
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: think he's just he's gaining familiarity, and so he goes

921
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 2: through maybe this this first date that victim wasn't you know,

922
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: somebody that satisfied what his idealized, you know, victim for

923
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: his fantasy, what he required. Maybe there was you know,

924
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: circumstances that caused him to move off of actually victimizing her.

925
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: Maybe too many people saw them together, et cetera. And

926
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 2: he's going, oh, no, I'll get caught if I do

927
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: anything to this gal. But I think he's doing a

928
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: trial run. You know. It's I like in this, you

929
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: think about a predator who has never gone into a

930
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: stroll area to pick up a sex worker before. They're

931
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 2: not going to pick up a victim the first time

932
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 2: they do that. They have to kind of learn that

933
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: culture and see how to navigate that type of area.

934
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: And so they'll do trial runs and they interact with

935
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 2: lots of these women on the streets that they never

936
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: kill as they get comfortable. I think that that is

937
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 2: possibly what is going on with this offender with the

938
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 2: Lonely Hearts Club thing. He's doing a trial run, and

939
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: then two weeks later he picks Shirley up because now

940
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 2: he knows he can go ahead and get away with

941
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: how he set things up.

942
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: Well, they find out that Shirley had told her mother

943
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: We're going to a dance. George Williams comes and picks

944
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: her up and they leave. She is missing. The police

945
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: check with the folks at the dance who were throwing

946
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: this dance. They never showed up. Nobody matched, which we

947
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: figured would happen. The trail unfortunately goes cold. They have

948
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: not identified Judy as the bones that were found by

949
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: the two little boys. They have not found Shirley's body,

950
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: and everything is cold until four months later, and then

951
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: we have another victim. This is almost exactly a year

952
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: to when Judy went missing, so this will be three

953
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: victims within one year, and we have officially a serial

954
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: killer on our hands. And the rest of the story

955
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: will have to wait until next week.

956
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: No, I know, you know serial predators or Mike Wheelhouse.

957
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 2: I know I'm gobbling all of this up. So I'm

958
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: looking forward to hearing you know the rest of the story,

959
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: so to speak.

960
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 1: Okay, I will see you next week and hopefully, you know,

961
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,439
Speaker 1: we can get some more answers because this is such

962
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: an incredible case.

963
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: YEP, looking forward to it.

964
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

965
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash

966
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources.

967
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

968
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, ali Elkin, Kate Winkler Dawson.

969
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

970
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

971
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

972
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

973
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

974
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: ary Bones pod.

975
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

976
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

977
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

978
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

979
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now