1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: When asked about being on the witness stand against her son, Wagner, 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: with tears in her eyes, said, this is not easy 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: for me. It rips my heart out. Apparently Georgie or 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: Jake quit are having nightmares, and Georgia had become a 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: different person, and she brought that up to Billy, and 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: Billy apparently told her, I don't know why George is 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: having any trouble. He didn't shoot anybody. She asked Billy, 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: why so many? He told her because they were there. 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: Billy apparently is a doomsday prepper. Now at the fact 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: that you've now murdered eight people and you're on the limb, 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: and Billy was crazy paranoid. I have never in all 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: the years I've been doing this, has ever seen a 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: case where mother testified against son. Well, George's got held 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: pay now because he's the one's on trial. This is 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: the Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County season four, 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: episode twenty, Angela Wagner takes the Stand Part two. I'm 17 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: Leidegger and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: his innocence. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, 21 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. In the 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: previous episode, we left off with Angela Wagner testifying about 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: the morning after Billy, Jake, and George murdered eight members 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: of the Rodent, Manly and Gilly families. Angela opted out 25 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: of her testimony being recorded. Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative 26 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: journalists from Cincinnati now with Local twelve. Se gets up 27 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: the next morning and Billy's there and Jake's outside, and 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: they turn on the news and it's already on the 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: news and they've identified possibly seven victims. I'm don kenneth 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: yet And according to her testimony, she looks at him 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: and says, why so many? And he turns to her 32 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: and he says, because they were there. He had already 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: told her that the plan was, whoever's there is going 34 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: to go. It's collateral damage. They had their primary targets 35 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: in mind, but anybody else was going to have to 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: go too. We heard in Jake Wagner's testimony about how 37 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: their kill list expanded beyond Hannah May. Prior to the murders, 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: Here's Anngeonette Levy, investigative journalist and host for the Long 39 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: Crime Network. Billy said, well, now if you kill her, 40 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: you're going to have to kill Chris and Frankie because 41 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: they will know who you did it and they will 42 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: come after you. So it was just this insane like, oh, 43 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: well we're going to kill her, we got to kill 44 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: everybody else too, And just the way that they came 45 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: up with this, just thinking, oh, I have no other 46 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: choice but to drive up to Union Hill Road on 47 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: an April night and slaughter people. Some of the people 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: were killed, you know, they were only killed because they 49 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: were there. I mean, Hannah, Hazel Gilly was killed only 50 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: because she was there. Chris Junior likely killed only because 51 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: he was there. Gary Rodin likely killed just because he 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: was there. Kenneth Roden, according to them, killed because he 53 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: was a strong guy, protective of his family and he 54 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: would know who did it and he would come an 55 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: exact revenge. I mean, so horrifying. According to Angela's testimony, 56 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: Billy directed the family to not speak about the murders. 57 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: She also confessed to her family agreeing on an alibi 58 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: to tell police that they were all at home during 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: the killings. The whole thing afterwards was Billy telling her 60 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: and telling the whole family, you cannot talk about anything 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: in front of anybody. To make sure nobody finds out 62 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: that it's us. They would write stuff down on paper 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: and walk out to the field in the barn and 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: burn it. The day after the murders, Billy gave way 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: the truck the Wagners used to get to the Rodents' 66 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: households to his niece. According to Angela, Jake was the 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: first member of the family to speak with law enforcement. 68 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: She was nervous. The prosecutor asks Angela if she thought 69 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: they would get away with it. She also said she 70 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: didn't think they'd necessarily get away with this, which I 71 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: found interesting. In May of twenty seventeen, the Wagners moved 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: to Alaska. Here's Stephanie who was in the courtroom during 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner's testimony. They decide they have to move, so 74 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: they go to Alaska, and Billy really didn't want to 75 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: move because Frederica was dead against it. She did not 76 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: want Billy moving with the family. In fact, she had 77 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: a private conversation with Angela saying that she would pay 78 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: Angela one thousand dollars a month if Billy didn't move. 79 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: They always wanted to go to Alaska. They felt like 80 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: the job prospect for better there and they wanted to 81 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: get away from all the noise. They loved Alaska, and 82 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: they sold their house on Peterson Road. They didn't really 83 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: have any other place to go. According to Angela, Billy's 84 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: father passed away while they were in Alaska. Billy started 85 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: to quote lose it and began drinking a lot, becoming unstable. 86 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: Everybody's having a really weird transition at that point. Billy 87 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: apparently is off the chains, paranoid and has always felt 88 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: like the TVs are listening and kind of rides that 89 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: line like so much. So when why two K was 90 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: happening in the year two thousand, he had a bread 91 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: truck and they filled it with water and supplies and 92 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: then they buried it, so that when why two K happened, 93 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: that they were prepared for that. So now add the 94 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: fact that you're on the lamb and you're trying to 95 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: get away with it. Billy was crazy, paranoid, but generally speaking, 96 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: would only speak to everybody outside in like a driveway 97 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: because he was afraid to be around the televisions. She said, quote, 98 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: I told him, I don't think we should have involved 99 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: them in the homicides, the planning, or any of it. 100 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: We should not have done that. And what she meant 101 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: by that was apparently Georgia or Jake whit are having 102 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: nightmares and not sleeping well, and Georgia had become a 103 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: different person, and she brought that up to Billy, and 104 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: Billy apparently told her, I don't know why George is 105 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: having any trouble. He didn't shoot anybody. Meanwhile, in Ohio, 106 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: law enforcement is gathering evidence that ties the Wagners to 107 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: the murders. In May of twenty seventeen, the Wagners are 108 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: interrupted at the Canadian border by BCI agents. The agents 109 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: asked Angela if she knew of any custody agreements between 110 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: Jake and Hannah over custody of their shared daughter. At first, 111 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: Angela denied she knew anything. Here's a reminder of the 112 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: portion of the recordings taken of Angela Wagner when she's 113 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: interviewed by the BCI at the Canadian border. So this 114 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: right here is a slow family interview. They are hmm, Okay, yeah, 115 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: I don't remember. You don't remember that. The document appears 116 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: to be a custody agreement saying that in the event 117 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: of Hannah Rodin's death, that custody of her daughter would 118 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: go to Jake. It has Hannah's signature on the form. 119 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: Detectives tell Angela Wagner they found it at her home. 120 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: This is what we're curious about them. And then it 121 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: was do you know who that is? Yeah, that's my mom. 122 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: Got your mom? So your mom notarized us. Nice, but 123 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: you didn't know about it. I don't remember it, okay. 124 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: The document appeared to be notarized by Angela's mother during 125 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: the same interview with the Canadian Border Law Enforcement also 126 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: collected a writing sample from Angela. Suddenly she's realizing that 127 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: they're looking into things very quickly. In her testimony, Angela 128 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: details what happen next. She basically flubbed that part of it, 129 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: and she was like kicking herself that this was like 130 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: the thing that she messed up. She's the one that 131 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: did the misstep. Here. Now they're like and they could 132 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: tell that she was lying and that the custody papers 133 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: were going to turn around and be a problem too. 134 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: So they get released, they go back and Rid a 135 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: newcom person who's signature she just forged, and Billy had 136 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: a secret meeting in this laundry room with the dryer 137 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: on because they didn't want anybody to be able to 138 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: hear them. She basically has to confess to her mom 139 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: that she forged her name and that the police are 140 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: kind of looking into it, and you know, she felt 141 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: very badly about it, and that Rita volunteered to take 142 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: the fall for her just to say, no worries, I'll 143 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: just say it was my handwriting. So Rita apparently very 144 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: willingly stepped into it to take the fall. And then 145 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't until much later that Angela found out that 146 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: Rita in fact had confessed and pled guilty far prior 147 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: and was actually working with authorities to get a wire 148 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: tap or some sort of recorded confession from one of 149 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: the boys, so she's actually working for the BCI. On 150 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: the stand, Angela testifies that she forged the custody documents. 151 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: Wagner admitted to forging the custody documents using her mother, 152 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: Rita's notary public stamp, so that her family would get 153 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: Sophia should Jake Orhannah be killed Angela. Adner also testifies 154 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: that during the interview at the Canadian border, she knew 155 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: law enforcement was on to them. Here's Stephanie, she's doing 156 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: this interview you. They've all been separated, and now she realizes, 157 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, they have stuff on me, and she's 158 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: not really prepared for some reason, she's ill prepared to 159 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: answer the custody stuff. She gives the writing sample. And 160 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: then also there was some receipts or something regarding the 161 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: shoes that we know she bought on surveillance, and she 162 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: didn't have a really good answer for did you buy 163 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: these shoes? Her answer was no, I didn't get those shoes. 164 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: And then they're like, oh, really, surprise, here you are 165 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: on surveillance, and apparently she changes her demeanor, and its 166 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: evident in that interview also how she can flip a 167 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: switch a little bit. We have a receipt for those 168 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: shoes purchased by you. Yeah, so you're them over buying. 169 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: I purchased them. I'm telling you. They didn't like them. 170 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: They wouldn't wear her, you know, they wanted to pair 171 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: her shoes. They always wear them hook to do. I've 172 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: also I don't know about that on the stand. Angela 173 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: admits to buying the shoes that left footprints at one 174 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: of the crime scenes. She told jurors that she bought 175 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: shoes at a Walmart for her sons to wear the 176 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: night of the murders while George and Jake waited outside 177 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: the store. But a key moment was when she said 178 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: that she talked about the shoe prints with George and 179 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: she said, they're telling us there's two shoe prints there, 180 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: and she says George told her one of them was mine. 181 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: I tried to smudge it out and Dad said, no, 182 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. We got to go. Come on, 183 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: and that's at Chris Rvan Senior's house. She obviously was 184 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: caught red handed buying the shoes. She doesn't remember seeing 185 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: the boys put the shoes on, but she remembers hanging 186 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: them on the bag, and after the night of the murders, 187 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: they were gone. In June of twenty seventeen, while the 188 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: Wagners were living in Alaska, law enforcement issued a press 189 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: release that included photos of the four wagoners and asked 190 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: anyone with information about the roadentmasker to contact the police. 191 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: At this point in the investigation, Angela is getting progressively 192 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: more paranoid. Now on the stand today, Angela Wagner admitted 193 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: she's been a liar and a thief, and she talked 194 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: about the paranoia she felt as investigators started closing in 195 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: and asking her family questions. In the spring of twenty eighteen, 196 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: special agent Ryan Scheiderer sent a text to George Wagner 197 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: with a photo that allegedly showed Jake Wagner holding the 198 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: twenty two cult nine to eleven used in the homicides. 199 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: They found that and the picture of the gun in 200 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: Jake's hand on the backup of his phone that they 201 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: got on the laptop on them on Hannah Border. The 202 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: prosecution asked Angela about the photo. Angela testifies that she 203 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: didn't recognize the hand at first, but then saw the 204 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: thumb and thought that it looked like Jake's. George Wagner, 205 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: according to his mom, wanted to confess long before his 206 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: younger brother and his mother Angela did so. And then 207 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: also big piece of information. Apparently George offered to take 208 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: the fall for Angela and for everyone that George gave 209 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: the offer that he'll take a blame for everybody, and 210 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: she says said, I couldn't do that to him. We're 211 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. 212 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: While the Wagners are living in Alaska, Jake meets his 213 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: new wife, Elizabeth. When she took the stand, Elizabeth Armor 214 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: discussed the alleged abuse, allegations that ultimately turned out to 215 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: be baseless. From Angela Wagner's testimony, it did not appear 216 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: that she liked Elizabeth, and she didn't feel comfortable ever 217 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: really having Elizabeth alone with the granddaughter. Angela did not 218 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: like her since she was quote weird, and she didn't 219 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: feel comfortable with her changing in front of you. In fact, 220 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: she made that kind of a mandate and that basically, 221 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: if it wasn't with Angela attached to her leg then 222 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: she was with Jake. There's one point in the testimony 223 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: where Angela Wagner says that her granddaughter told her other grandmother, 224 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: Rita Newcomb, that Elizabeth had touched her. Angela asked the 225 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: toddler about it, and she allegedly responded no, no, no, 226 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: and took it back. Angela then told Jake, who tried 227 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: to speak with his daughter about it and later confronts 228 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: it Elizabeth about the same Angela was present during the confrontation. 229 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: Jake said that if what his daughter was saying was true, 230 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: he'd beat Elizabeth. Here's Stephanie. Here, she is entering this world. 231 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: If Angela was home and Jake was at work, Elizabeth 232 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: would stay home in her room with the door locked, 233 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: but never alone would and then once in a blue 234 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: moon she would go for a walk, and Angela didn't 235 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: really know where she would go, but we've heard this. 236 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was writing in her journal and would journal things 237 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: and then she would go out to the driveway out 238 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: front and burn it up, and it was kind of 239 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: her way of therapy, as it, Angela explains. So she 240 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: would write it down in the form of a letter 241 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: to her grandfather, and then she would go out front 242 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: and burn it. And Angela after a while was like, 243 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: you cannot be burning things in the front driveway. So 244 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: she was very troubled by that. So one day Elizabeth 245 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: is going out and Angela goes into her room and 246 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: starts snoopings through the stuff and finds the letter that 247 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: she had written about her in regards to Angela that 248 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: she hadn't gotten to burn yet. And she's saying this 249 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: so softly, like ugh, it's like a scary movie. It 250 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: legitimately is she's just saying something sweet and innocent, like 251 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: she was just concerned, because I mean, she can't have 252 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: BCI thinking that they're destroying evidence in the front driveway. 253 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: So she finds like a one subject loosely finder and 254 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: it says no, dear granddaddy, but it seems like a 255 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: diary entry from a sixteen year old, you know, and 256 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: basically said that there's a lot of fighting in the 257 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: house and a lot of yelling in the house, and 258 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: it was disparaging about Angela in general, nothing super damning, 259 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: but just that it was stressful in there. And when 260 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: she saw that, she took a photograph of it, and 261 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: she took that photo and sent it to George. So 262 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: here they are so paranoid about the BCI, and they 263 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: know that there are cameras everywhere, and they assume that 264 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: their TVs are bugged and that their cars are bugged, 265 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: and that the phones are bugged. Yet Angela took a 266 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: photograph of this journal entry and send it via text 267 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: to George. And now we're seeing a picture of it 268 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: in the big screen at the trial. So she texts 269 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: this picture to George and George is very upset about it, 270 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: and then she tells Jake about it, and then Jake 271 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: is very upset about it. But she also thought that 272 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was a plant. They thought maybe she was a 273 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: spy working for the BCI. She even says to Angie Kinneppa, 274 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, she could have been a plant working 275 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: for you, signaling to Angie Caineppa. Angela testified that she 276 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: drew up a contract before Jake and Elizabeth got married. 277 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: In those roles, it was stipulated that if they were 278 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: to break up, Elizabeth would have no connection to the Weekend. 279 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: After the wedding, the Wagners and Elizabeth moved back to Ohio. 280 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 1: A few months later, Jake and Elizabeth divorce. On the stand, 281 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: Angela speaks about what brought them back to Ohio. She 282 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: started getting visibly choked up when she spoke about Pug, 283 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: her father, and how he passed away. She wasn't there 284 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: when he died, and had she known how sick he was, 285 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: he was in such a state that she would have 286 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: come back from Alaska sooner to be with him, and 287 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: that is in fact why they came back from Alaska. 288 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: So they ultimately ended up living at Pug's house because 289 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 1: he since has passed In Ohio, Angela Wagner's paranoia grows. 290 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: Here's medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. I think that when 291 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: individuals attempt to control others, particularly in a criminal enterprise, 292 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: where there's a lot of planning that goes into it, 293 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: there's a certain level of paranoid behavior that kicks in. 294 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: I know that there was one instance where they were 295 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: interacting with someone that had shown up in the house 296 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: and she thought there was going to be a sniper 297 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: up in the woods that as soon as she opened 298 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: the door that they were around between her eyes. And 299 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: what kind of person thinks like that? So when they're 300 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: planning the killings, this mask when they're planning this, I 301 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: think that that higher self awareness and awareness of your 302 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: surroundings everything goes into these kind of paranoid beliefs. Perhaps. 303 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: On November eighteenth, twenty eighteen, Billy, Angela, George, and Jake 304 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: were arrested in charge with murdering the Rodent, Manly and 305 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: Gilly families. The four of them pleaded not guilty. Angela 306 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: testifies that the first time she heard about Jake taking 307 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: a plead deal was on the news. Here's Stephanie. She 308 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: only heard that Jake cut a deal while in prison, 309 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: seeing it on breaking news, and it was her heart 310 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: just got ripped open that day. And I wish they 311 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: had asked why because it was your heart ripped open 312 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: because now you're being caught and your boys just turned 313 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: on you. Or is your heart ripped open because now 314 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: you're realizing that these murders really happened. Five months after 315 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: hearing about Jake's plea deal, Angela changes her plea to guilty. 316 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: This is in September of twenty twenty one. On cross examination, 317 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: the defense challenges Angela on the terms of her plea deal. Now, 318 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: according to prosecutors, this plea deal Angela was given was 319 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: a thirty year sentence to be served in full so 320 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: long as she admits to her role in the killings 321 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: of the Road and family in twenty sixteen. However, the 322 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: defense argued that it was only after Jake pled guilty 323 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: that she decided to as well, claiming that Angela only 324 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: did so to prevent her sons from testifying against her. Now, 325 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: Angela argued back against the defense, saying that was only 326 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: partly true, and claimed there were multiple reasons for her 327 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: coming forward. This is a big jaw dropper. She only 328 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: took the plea deal because she did the math and 329 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: hoped that she could get out at eighty at the 330 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: bare minimum, she could then hug her grandbabies and hug 331 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: her sons and husband one last time before she died. 332 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: Here again, investigative reporter James Pilcher. To be honest, I 333 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: think she was telling them the truth when she testified. 334 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: She wanted a chance to see your kids again and 335 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: see your grandkids again. That's her whole life, you know. 336 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: However twisted this family might have been. That family was 337 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: all she had, and so she wants a chance to 338 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: be reunited with them, and in her own worldview, this 339 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: deal possibly makes that possible. The defense argues that Angela 340 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: got the plea deal of the century. The evidence would 341 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: be that Jake and Angela have conned the state of 342 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: Ohio here as well. They've conned the state of Ohio 343 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: into the most tenuous crime, into a thirty year sentence. 344 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: He's most deserving of death. He escapes with life. In 345 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: order to avoid the death penalty, they must implicate George. 346 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen, 347 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: Is this a sweetheart deal? And did she earn her deal? Oh? 348 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: I think she definitely earned her deal. I think her 349 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: testimony was credible, and you look at it from the 350 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: state's point of view, I mean, I don't think they 351 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: gave up much. She's I believe, will be eighty years 352 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: old when she's eligible for parole. She may not make 353 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: it out other than on a stretcher. It was a 354 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: smart deal for the state because they got a lot 355 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: of testimony from her that does coincide and jibe with 356 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: some of the other testimony some of the physical evidence 357 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: in the case too. Remember Angela testified that George wanted 358 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: to take the fall for the family months before Jake 359 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: pleaded guilty. Here's Stephanie. George tries to take the fall 360 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: for all of them. She says, no, she could never 361 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: do that. And then really, the only main reason also 362 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: that she took the plea agreement for the thirty years 363 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: is because she couldn't possibly bear Jake going through the 364 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 1: trauma of having to testify against her. She just wouldn't 365 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: put him through that, which sounds great until you realize 366 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: you're actually staring at your other son right now. On 367 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: the one hand, she's being so kind yeah to Jake, 368 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: and she wouldn't put him through it, But she's saying 369 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: that at the trial of her other son, who she's 370 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: putting through it. The defense brings up a letter that 371 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: Angela wrote to her mother in law, Frederica, after she 372 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: accepted the plea deal. She wrote a letter to Frederica 373 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: from prison, a handwritten letter, and she had to read 374 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: it out loud, and she wanted her to know that basically, 375 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 1: everything they're all saying in court is not true. And 376 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: they're just saying that because they want to get the 377 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: plea agreement. And the reason why that's a big deal 378 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: is because again, she just pled to this. So just 379 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: by that letter alone, she's saying she's a liar. She's 380 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: a liar either way. You lied to your mother in 381 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: law from prison saying not to believe anything you said 382 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: in court. So why are we believing anything or saying 383 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: in court? Why did she write that letter and what 384 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: does she really mean by it in terms of she 385 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: wasn't really guilty of the things they say she was 386 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: guilty of, trying to make her sound like she didn't 387 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: really believe in her own plea deal and what she 388 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: said she meant by it was, yeah, I pleaded the burglary, 389 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: and I pleaded to the gun specs, but I wasn't 390 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: really there and I didn't hold a gun. That's what 391 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: she said she meant when she wrote to Fredrika. And 392 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: here's another key quote, we're nothing like what the media 393 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: portrays us, as Nash hits her on this too. Nash 394 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: and the Cross says, not anywhere in that letter you 395 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: express remorse for taking the lives of eight innocent people, 396 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: and you're not getting a fair trial for that. And 397 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: she says, to be honest, that's because voters will be 398 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: looking for someone to blame. I wanted to make sure 399 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: that they got the truth. Voters, she meant curers, of course, 400 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: because the voters are yourors. The defense says that Angela 401 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: Wagner is lying to satisfy her and of the bargain, 402 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: with no regard for her son, George. Angela Wagner testified 403 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: on the stand for three days. Where does George Wagner, 404 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: the man on trial stand after all of this testimony. 405 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: Some of the biggest takeaways from Angela Wagner's testimony was 406 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: she says George knew about the plan to murder the Rodents, 407 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: and he helped with the cover up them. Well, George 408 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: got held pay now because he's won his on trial. 409 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: But he's a creature of free will, and he made 410 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: these decisions of his own free will. But you know, 411 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: trust me, Angela was there in the background. Jake was 412 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: a tool in her hands, just like Billy was. And 413 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're seeing George on trial, and George made 414 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: a choice. I think about the influences that Angela exerted 415 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: over him, compelled him. She was still his mama, and 416 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that's more powerful than 417 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: a lot of other things. Then the prosecution finished their 418 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: questioning by asking Angelo whether she regretted her actions. She 419 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: then became visibly emotional in court, saying yes, quote, because 420 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: they're my sons. I should have protected them from that situation. 421 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: We're going to take a break. We'll be back in 422 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: a moment. At the end of Agelist's testimony, the defense 423 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: asked her about her relationship with her sons. When Nash 424 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: asked her if she favored Jake over his brother, Wagner 425 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: told the court, I did not have a favorite son. 426 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: I love George just as I do Jake. When asked 427 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: about being on the witness stand against her son, Wagner, 428 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: with tears in her eyes, said, this is not easy 429 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: for me. It rips my heart out. The defense continues 430 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: their cross of Angelo here again, James Pilcher, and then 431 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: she's asked, this is a tragedy you created, Yes, it is, 432 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: Missus Wagner. Do you love your sons? Yes? Do you 433 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: believe they love you? I hope so. She's in tears 434 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: at this point. How difficult has it been to testify? Extremely? 435 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: She's not even looking at him at this point. Do 436 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: you still regret having involved your sons? Yes? Obviously those 437 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: were emotional questions that she was asked. She answered them, 438 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: I think honestly. When she was asked, do you think 439 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: George loves you? And she said she hoped so, which 440 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: was reasonable and probably an honest answer under the circumstances 441 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: for a mother to be testifying against her son. I 442 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: don't think she would know whether he still loved her 443 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: or not, because that's a hell of a thing. Again, 444 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: long crimes Annette Levy, Well, is she sorry for herself 445 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: or is she sorry for her son? She had told 446 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: Billy she was sorry they involved Jake and George like 447 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: they shouldn't have done that. I guess she thought maybe 448 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: they should have just done it themselves. I don't know. 449 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: She obviously has feelings for them and loves them, but 450 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: is that real love when you bring your kids into 451 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: a murder plot. Angela barely made eye contact with her son, 452 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: George throughout her three days of testimony. I have never, 453 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: in all the years I've been doing this, ever seen 454 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: a case I don't care if it's a shoplifting case 455 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: or an aggravated murder case where mother testified against son. 456 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's happened somewhere in the world before, but 457 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: I've never seen it. There was that one story, you know, 458 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: that really got my attention. I think he goes back 459 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: to the time when George was maybe sixteen, and he 460 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: had had it up to his eyeballs to the family, 461 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: and he had his car and he's at it south. 462 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: I think he made it into Kentucky and he realized 463 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: he was gonna run out of gas, and he turned 464 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: around headed back. I often think of that sixteen year 465 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: old kid and George, you know, I think if he 466 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: had to do over again, he would have worked and 467 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: worked until he he could have paid for several tanks 468 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: and gasoline just to put as much distance between him 469 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: and them. I certainly think he would now consider the 470 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: position that he's in. You know, he's on trial right 471 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 1: now for life. Here's Jeff and Mike Allen, and what 472 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: about if he's found guilty. Can they write to each 473 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: other or call each other from prison to prison? I 474 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: don't think they can. You still got, obviously Billy's case hang, 475 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: and I think they'll kind of keep that separation in 476 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: place until all of the cases are over with. But 477 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: it would be interesting to see how they communicate and 478 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: what they have to say to each other, because for now, 479 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: if there's any communication at all, it's gotta be through 480 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: the lawyers. It's just so interesting. I'm thinking like this 481 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: could be the last time they see each other, not 482 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: that they really communicated, but that they have any sort 483 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: of interaction for the rest of their lives. In George's defense, 484 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: his attorneys argue that even though George was a part 485 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: of the family, he kept his distance from these crimes. 486 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: George knew his family had done a lot of bad 487 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: things in their life, but he had never known them 488 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: to ever commit a crime of violence. He couldn't believe it, 489 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: he denied it at the end of this testimony. How 490 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: did the defense and prosecution do? Is horrible as the 491 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: crime was, I do think she came off as credible 492 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: and I don't think the defense was able to really 493 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: do any damage to her on cross examination. I think 494 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: for the prosecution it's a brilliant move. The dirty details 495 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: in this case are important, but they're not as important 496 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: as the overarching theme. The slight writing of a mystery 497 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: novel or a screenplay. You have an overarching theme and 498 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: it rises in Jake, and it says an Angela because 499 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: she's the big finale. I mean, she truly is. She's 500 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: the great, big exclamation point. And I think the really 501 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: sad thing about this is that her life's not new 502 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: every She's not the one that has her life on 503 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: the line here. She's cut a deal, and I think 504 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: that she's chief among sinners, but these others are not 505 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: going to see the light of day. I thought the 506 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: defense made good points and their cross examinations of both 507 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela, But I think that Jake and Angela's testimony, 508 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: coupled with the wire taps, do not bode well for George. 509 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: Even if you believe that Jake and Angelo, let's say 510 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: they implicated George just because they had to in order 511 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: to get these plea deals that they wanted the wire taps. 512 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: In a lot of respects, he still sounds like he's 513 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: in the thick of this and he knows exactly what's 514 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: going on. They all live together, and you grew up 515 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: committing crimes together. You would think that that would just 516 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: be very difficult for the defense to overcome, for them 517 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: to come into court and feel confident that they were 518 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: going to somehow poken of holes in Jake and Angela's 519 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: testimony to make George not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 520 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's not possible, and Angela Wagner said, 521 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: we are all guilty. So I think that they've got 522 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: a tough mountain to find. They may have to put 523 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: them on the stand. More on that next time. For 524 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us 525 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The piked In Masker 526 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Caccaro, Andrew Arnow, 527 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 528 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: by Jeff ta music by Jared Aston. The piked In 529 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and Kati Studios. 530 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 531 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 532 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: Please welcome mar Fight County, Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I 533 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: just thank you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, 534 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: hold on well, sad all over the hap who could 535 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: have killed eight family members in one nine I lost 536 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: my best friends and I will never be the same 537 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. 538 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. 539 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: The word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was 540 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: the master mind, I'm telling you is a crimer. I'm 541 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: not pitty and prisons. One thing I learned. The smaller 542 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch 543 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, a Family Massacre, 544 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on 545 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November 546 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts 547 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.