Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Ups Podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is Calm Courson, who's presently co chairman
Speaker 1: and CEO of Warrener Records, but he seems to have
Speaker 1: worked at every label, A and M Capital you know,
Speaker 1: Sony and now Warner. What makes Warner different from any
Speaker 1: of your other situations. Yeah, this is an exciting thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. First of all, absolutely glad to
Speaker 1: have you here, glad to be We've known each other
Speaker 1: a long time, Absolutely big fan. And you know when
Speaker 1: I think i've we first encountered each other, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybefore at when they had Giant and Brian Adams they
Speaker 1: played on the sound stage in Your wife was pregnant
Speaker 1: at the time. I believe she would have been very
Speaker 1: good of you to remember that and delivered a nice,
Speaker 1: healthy girl at that time. On top of our boy,
Speaker 1: what are they? How old? How old are your kids today?
Speaker 1: And thirty? Our daugh will be twenty nine in a week.
Speaker 1: What are they up to? Our daughter is just graduated
Speaker 1: from Chinese medical school, so she'll be your acculates, your
Speaker 1: natural path. And our son is in banking, in finance
Speaker 1: and he's an analyst at A at essentially a hedge fund.
Speaker 1: And where is that hedge fund? They're both here, Yeah,
Speaker 1: both our kids in l A. Okay, Yeah we did
Speaker 1: meet at A and M for sure. So but let's
Speaker 1: start with today. What makes Warner different from other labels
Speaker 1: with this? Yeah, the opportunity that that I've taken taken
Speaker 1: on a Warner, you know, twenty one months ago, is unique. Um.
Speaker 1: You take one of the greatest record labels in the
Speaker 1: history struggling, you know, really trying to find its way, uh,
Speaker 1: and looked at it as an incredible chance to bring
Speaker 1: a great, great mark, a great great brand back to
Speaker 1: it's heyday. Okay, And what have you done well in
Speaker 1: the last twenty one months, Bob? We have changed so
Speaker 1: much to the label. We've we've we've flipped fifty of
Speaker 1: the roster. We had a very kind of you know,
Speaker 1: album oriented, not urban, not particularly pop leaning roster, and
Speaker 1: we freshened it up with a lot of urban signings,
Speaker 1: a lot of pop signings, Uh, artists that weren't you know,
Speaker 1: dedicated to just putting out an album in the album
Speaker 1: cycle business. Some that remain are fantastic And if you
Speaker 1: think about the Chili Peppers and Green Day and Josh
Speaker 1: Groban and Michael Boubley, amongst others, their perennials. They're all timers.
Speaker 1: You you know, you don't you don't turn your back
Speaker 1: on them. They're wonderful and uh and they have a
Speaker 1: lot of commercial um vitality in the market. Uh. But
Speaker 1: we needed to refresh the younger, the younger crop. And
Speaker 1: Aaron's come in about a year ago. Aaron Bay Chuck
Speaker 1: my co chairman and CEO. He's put my partner and
Speaker 1: together we were really calling together a fantastic roster. And
Speaker 1: so we've've also changed the attitude and the brand of
Speaker 1: the company. We have a new name, Warner Records, not
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers, a new logo with Mark. We've got a
Speaker 1: new building which is spectacular. We invite everybody to downtown
Speaker 1: l A into the Arts district on Seventh and Sam
Speaker 1: a Heo and it's just a started seventh in Santa Fe.
Speaker 1: Just fantastic. New building was the old Ford Motor Company building.
Speaker 1: We've changed the entire senior management of the company and
Speaker 1: quite a few other people and we're bringing a fresh
Speaker 1: new energy to the company that really it hasn't had
Speaker 1: many years. Okay, let's go back a chapter. You at
Speaker 1: r c A. Just before this, I was, uh, how
Speaker 1: did you decide to jump? Yeah? Our c A. We
Speaker 1: we had a great run at our c Peter and
Speaker 1: I took over the label in two thousand eleven. Peter, Yes,
Speaker 1: Peter Edge and a longtime friend and colleague of mine. Uh,
Speaker 1: and we put together a company there that I'm really
Speaker 1: proud of, you know. Um. And there were a lot
Speaker 1: of things that led to it, I'd always but one
Speaker 1: of the main things I'd always I wanted to move
Speaker 1: back to l A to be with my family because
Speaker 1: our kids moved out here. It was time and as
Speaker 1: you'll remember, I left here in ninety six, and uh,
Speaker 1: it was time to get back to l A. Had
Speaker 1: always wanted to come back and talked about working by coastal,
Speaker 1: which I don't think is really a great leadership strategy,
Speaker 1: and especially when you're working at a turnaround, you need
Speaker 1: to be right in the middle of things. Uh. In
Speaker 1: joyed my time at r c A. Got a lot
Speaker 1: of respect for the team. They're built the team there.
Speaker 1: You know. I was different part r S as an
Speaker 1: amalgam of a number of labels over many years. Uh,
Speaker 1: starting in in two thousand with Jay Records merging into
Speaker 1: Arris and so forth. Um and and that was a
Speaker 1: tough decision. I love Sony, I love the management there,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to move back
Speaker 1: to l a and to to bring Warner Brothers back
Speaker 1: to and now warning Warner Records back to two It's
Speaker 1: Heyday to It's glory. Now are you the one who
Speaker 1: got Aaron bay Shook to come or was that already
Speaker 1: in the works when you made the decision? That was
Speaker 1: already in the works. It was a strategy that Max Lissada,
Speaker 1: who was the CEO of music group Max Um, put
Speaker 1: us together. It was an arranged marriage. Did you know Aaron?
Speaker 1: We had met a couple of times, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know him. Um and admired him from a distance. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, his energy is great, his his track record
Speaker 1: is impressive. Signing Bruno Mars working with some of the
Speaker 1: artists he's worked with over the years. Uh and just
Speaker 1: actually more than anything, just sitting down talking with them
Speaker 1: knowing we had really similar or almost the same values
Speaker 1: of what we wanted to do and uh and where
Speaker 1: we where we weren't quite on the same page. We've
Speaker 1: called cobbled together a strategy and and emission statement and
Speaker 1: and and core values that are really working for the company.
Speaker 1: So what does he do and what do you do? Uh?
Speaker 1: In the simplest fashion, I'm the operating guy in the
Speaker 1: marketing and promotion guy, and Aaron is the creative guy
Speaker 1: and signs in A and RS the acts UH. Together,
Speaker 1: we we work with our business affairs had Julian Petty
Speaker 1: and we do the deals and UH and and you
Speaker 1: know what, Aaron is the guy out finding and and
Speaker 1: and and recruiting the talent, making the records, finding great
Speaker 1: A and our people, um, but you know, the best companies.
Speaker 1: And I think Peter and I had a good, really
Speaker 1: good relationship that way. Great and our people also have
Speaker 1: real good marketing instincts. Great marketing people have great A
Speaker 1: and our instincts, and Aaron embodies that. And as we
Speaker 1: forged together the relationship, I'm really seeing the best of
Speaker 1: him come out. Okay, even though it's more under his purview.
Speaker 1: What is it like being an A and R person today?
Speaker 1: Because certainly in the old days it was about discovering things.
Speaker 1: Now everything is available on the internet, So what what
Speaker 1: do you what's the job of the A and Army
Speaker 1: of today. I don't think the job is essentially changed.
Speaker 1: It's to find amazing artists who make really stellar records
Speaker 1: that hopefully become hits or they become something more more
Speaker 1: more cultural, if you will, and and and kind of
Speaker 1: set a tone for for music and and and for
Speaker 1: great artistry. And there's room for that at great labels still, um.
Speaker 1: But essentially it's it's making great records and making hit
Speaker 1: songs and finding and creating stars and and you know.
Speaker 1: So that's that starts with the A and R Department
Speaker 1: and the people that are out there doing the research
Speaker 1: and going to see acts and and you know, and
Speaker 1: and it isn't it isn't always the ones with the
Speaker 1: with the greatest data that that end up working, you know.
Speaker 1: But that's that's it's a very data focus, data leaning
Speaker 1: approach these days. And but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: more than one label usually has the same data, more
Speaker 1: than one A and our person is usually checked out
Speaker 1: the act before we go deeper into the data. UM.
Speaker 1: Having had a long career and most of it at
Speaker 1: the top, have you ever directly signed an act? I have?
Speaker 1: I have a few over there is Pentatonics. I was.
Speaker 1: I was heavily involved with signing radio Head to the
Speaker 1: US label at the time, UM, and and kind of
Speaker 1: led the charge on that to Capital when Halmilgram was
Speaker 1: running it. Uh, you know, and on and on. You know,
Speaker 1: I've I've and and i've and I'm always involved in
Speaker 1: in in I'm not always I'm almost always involved in
Speaker 1: everything that signed. Le tell us the story of Pentatonics
Speaker 1: because that was certainly something from left field relative the
Speaker 1: traditional record business and was ultra successful. Yeah. Look they
Speaker 1: had there, they came off the sing off they had
Speaker 1: you know, nobody picked him up that it was a
Speaker 1: direct to Sony sort of relationship. Um. Other labels had
Speaker 1: passed on. In fact, we passed on him a number
Speaker 1: of times. For those who don't know. This is an
Speaker 1: acapella group. Yes, a very unusual group who now doing
Speaker 1: arenas and and have our superstars you know, and wonderful
Speaker 1: people as well. Uh. They I've been watching them for
Speaker 1: a while and and and and Linny Beer had who Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he co manages them with Jonathan Caulter and and
Speaker 1: the Hits management team does it. Had brought it to
Speaker 1: me a couple of times and I've taken in the
Speaker 1: CD A and R meeting, and I got the answer
Speaker 1: I expected, which was, Hey, this is great, but we
Speaker 1: don't get it. We don't know how that fits into
Speaker 1: what we do. And at some point what happened was
Speaker 1: we just saw what was going on at the time
Speaker 1: at iTunes that their Christmas EP was going off going,
Speaker 1: so they put that out independently. They did how long
Speaker 1: after the TV show that was about, Well, it depends
Speaker 1: on which piece of product, but at the time we
Speaker 1: looked at it, I believe it was about three years
Speaker 1: after after they were okay. So it's just funny that
Speaker 1: there's that much, you know, stickiness in the marketplace. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: they broke off a YouTube Initially, they had their own
Speaker 1: YouTube channel. They were like a top twenty YouTube music channel,
Speaker 1: and and everyone was sort of like not liking them.
Speaker 1: They weren't they weren't they weren't sexy or ed g
Speaker 1: in the way that labels generally look at things. And
Speaker 1: and so I've always had a marketing as you know,
Speaker 1: my I'm a marketer by by training, and so I
Speaker 1: looked at it and eventually I just went to Peter
Speaker 1: and I said, Peter, I'm signing this, and he was
Speaker 1: very supportive and he said, okay, great, I hope it works.
Speaker 1: You know, I said, it's gonna work to some degree.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna lose money because you can see what's
Speaker 1: going on here, and because I like to think I'm
Speaker 1: a pretty good marketer. We knew what to do with it.
Speaker 1: The team bought in, Uh, well what did you do
Speaker 1: with it? Well, you know, we we did the things
Speaker 1: that they were incapable of doing in terms of maybe
Speaker 1: funding or having access to the right things. And ultimately
Speaker 1: it was making sure that you know, the product was
Speaker 1: was well explained to retail at the time because a
Speaker 1: lot of it was was physical that we already had
Speaker 1: a partner in Apple and iTunes, who were very supportive.
Speaker 1: Amazon had at that time was was you know, more
Speaker 1: physical leading, and they they really saw a market for it.
Speaker 1: You can imagine with the Amazon consumer being maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit older and a little bit more mainstream and
Speaker 1: a little bit where our center of America not coastal
Speaker 1: and hipster leaning, that was a no brainer for them.
Speaker 1: Up in the YouTube was an incredible partner. We doubled
Speaker 1: down on YouTube and video and the way you go
Speaker 1: about it and so forth, and we just for those
Speaker 1: who don't know. When you're in the belly of the beast,
Speaker 1: how do you double down on YouTube? What does that
Speaker 1: look like? Well, you know you can you you dissect
Speaker 1: the algorithm. You look at all the different various touch
Speaker 1: points where you can reach an audience. You have data
Speaker 1: and information. It's a little bit slower, so what might
Speaker 1: those touch points be? Uh, you know, different YouTube channels
Speaker 1: you g C opportunities that you know you can you
Speaker 1: can point to and and have people do their own
Speaker 1: kind of versions of videos if you will, or whatever
Speaker 1: happens in the u g C page really slow. Okay,
Speaker 1: you have something you want to work. It has some traction.
Speaker 1: So then you search who has a good audience on
Speaker 1: YouTube and approach them. Yeah you have you did the research.
Speaker 1: You didn't like audiences where they're sharing, where there's some crossover,
Speaker 1: and then you put these these Then you pitch these
Speaker 1: videos for playlisting or whatever within the YouTube you know ecosphere.
Speaker 1: And it's changed a lot since then, but it's essentially
Speaker 1: let's jump. Yeah, then that's how you would do it.
Speaker 1: Now it's, as I say, since that physical error is
Speaker 1: essentially over, how do you deal with YouTube. Now, um well,
Speaker 1: YouTube is a great partner. They they they they are
Speaker 1: the you know you you you you like anybody you
Speaker 1: introduced them to. The artists you get you get them
Speaker 1: the information, You get them excited about about the content,
Speaker 1: and you differentiate the artist from one another from thousands
Speaker 1: of other artists. You might be, you know, a band,
Speaker 1: or a white female or an urban person or you
Speaker 1: know whatever, whatever they whatever, the kind of category you
Speaker 1: put them in, and and and and and obviously you know,
Speaker 1: they've got to get excited about the music and the
Speaker 1: content that's presented. Because we're storytellers, you know, we're brand builders.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, we work very obviously,
Speaker 1: we work with the brand, which is the hardest product.
Speaker 1: And you know, we sit there and say, okay, well
Speaker 1: you are you you you are similar to these sort
Speaker 1: of artists or these sort of you know records. And
Speaker 1: I always say, you know, I know you're totally unique,
Speaker 1: but what do you sound like? That's right, what do
Speaker 1: you sound like? And what what are you about? And
Speaker 1: you and with everything going socially today, you know, it's
Speaker 1: ultimately all about the music and the content, but it's
Speaker 1: also you know, about the story, about the conversation that
Speaker 1: they're having directly with their fans, you know, and then
Speaker 1: we amplify that, you know, by by going to places,
Speaker 1: whether it's playlisting that they can't get because they're not
Speaker 1: necessarily aligned or can't get in the media. Let's just
Speaker 1: assume that just stupid. Let's go back one more chapter though,
Speaker 1: so it tell us the stories signing Radiohead. Yeah, well Radiohead.
Speaker 1: What happened was it was passed on by every US
Speaker 1: label in the EMI system at the time. Um, everyone
Speaker 1: was excited about other acts. They were a little more
Speaker 1: already creep was. It was a modest hit in the UK,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden and it's it's it's
Speaker 1: such an old school story, but all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: Live on A five specialty show started playing it in
Speaker 1: San Francisco, and we noticed because I was trying to
Speaker 1: get it signed to to Capital, and so I went
Speaker 1: to my wonderful US at the time, Hill Milgram. I said, hey, Hale,
Speaker 1: you see what's going on over here. And there's a
Speaker 1: guy named Rob Gordon who deserves full credit too. We
Speaker 1: were both excited about it. Now he switched to Warner Brothers.
Speaker 1: Where's Rob today? I think Rob's freelancing. I think he's
Speaker 1: a consultant. Um and and Rob and I got excited
Speaker 1: and said, do you mind if we take uh, if
Speaker 1: we take five thousand CD singles and see the market
Speaker 1: in the Bay Area And they sold out immediately and
Speaker 1: then the rest is sort of history. So did I
Speaker 1: signed them, pick them up? Whatever? Okay? But I was
Speaker 1: very I was very instrumental doing okay, But did you
Speaker 1: have an inkling of what they would turn into? No?
Speaker 1: I thought I thought they were great. But you know,
Speaker 1: Pablo Honey is a good It's a really good album.
Speaker 1: It's not their best album. You know. I'll let everyone
Speaker 1: argue about whether each one it is. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: all they all have their own special place in folks hearts,
Speaker 1: but they but Tom was special. The players in the
Speaker 1: band were really solid. They were growing as a live band. Uh.
Speaker 1: They had a point of view. And and when the
Speaker 1: Bins came in and we heard that album, uh, it
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, this is a great act.
Speaker 1: And uh. I left shortly thereafter and moved to Columbia.
Speaker 1: But I'm really proud of the band. And they were
Speaker 1: wonderful people. And and the two managers were terrific and
Speaker 1: we had a great time. And you know they've gone
Speaker 1: on on to do to be radio ahead. And let's
Speaker 1: stay with that for one second, because a lot of
Speaker 1: bands with longevity will say I signed and everybody was here.
Speaker 1: I'm still at the label. Nobody I ever had any
Speaker 1: business with its still there. So what's that like when
Speaker 1: you're trying to convince people to go with you? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, well, look I I point out that I
Speaker 1: was at at our c A and some version of
Speaker 1: it for almost twenty years, you know, And so I'm
Speaker 1: not a guy who's bounced around a lot, even though
Speaker 1: I I had an average in my first you know,
Speaker 1: maybe fifteen twenty years of my career of every five
Speaker 1: or six years moving labels, which you know, I think
Speaker 1: for a young person in the business is not a
Speaker 1: bad strategy. Get different experiences, work with different people, make relationships,
Speaker 1: um and and and have more than one way to
Speaker 1: do things and and labels are different and experiences are different. Uh.
Speaker 1: But and then settling down where I really enjoyed the
Speaker 1: whole process that that I experienced from two thousand to
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen of of being in that system, and
Speaker 1: I liked I liked the BMG and Sony systems a lot.
Speaker 1: And I think that that that they were very good
Speaker 1: to to to what I was trying to accomplish, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, helped create big stars and big brands and
Speaker 1: nurture the ones that were on their way. Um, and
Speaker 1: we had a great team. I worked for some of
Speaker 1: the all time great people in the business, you know.
Speaker 1: So I uh, you know, you know that process was
Speaker 1: was really a lot of fun. And um, let's get
Speaker 1: back to the question I think I've lost. You know,
Speaker 1: you said you were there for eighteen years and I
Speaker 1: sell artists. Yeah, Look, I tell artists is like I'm
Speaker 1: a stable guy. I plan on being here for a
Speaker 1: long time, you know. And uh and and because you
Speaker 1: know you as an artist that that you know, you're
Speaker 1: sitting there and it's there. They're on their own, you know,
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. They're they're the brand, they're
Speaker 1: on the marquee, they're on the on the top of
Speaker 1: the of the package, whatever that looks like, whether it's
Speaker 1: digital or physical. And so at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it works or not, it's on it's
Speaker 1: on them. And what happens in the meantime they have
Speaker 1: to own. So so my pitch to them is like, look,
Speaker 1: I plan on being around Aaron plans on being around
Speaker 1: here for a long time, you know, and uh and
Speaker 1: and so our expectation is that will be going through
Speaker 1: many cycles together, many ups and downs, but that will
Speaker 1: have some measure of success and satisfaction together. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and and and that doesn't always work out, you know,
Speaker 1: people change. And I'm the whatever, i am the fifth
Speaker 1: leader of of Warner Records, Warner Brothers Records. But you know,
Speaker 1: what I'd like to think is that my track record
Speaker 1: will help and my success will help pave a way
Speaker 1: for a really stable company for a long time. That's actually,
Speaker 1: that's actually okay, let's really slow it down and start. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm an artist, Okay, we'll make it really left field.
Speaker 1: I'm a very successful klezmer artist. Will you sign music
Speaker 1: in any genre or music that you feel is the
Speaker 1: easiest to market to the largest segment of the market,
Speaker 1: which now is basically hip hop and pop um. We
Speaker 1: may not sign the klezmer artist, however, you know, we're
Speaker 1: we're interested in artists that move culture. We're interested in
Speaker 1: artists that move units. We're interested an artist that want
Speaker 1: hits and want to be global. Um, we're a big
Speaker 1: major label. So we have a new mission statement art
Speaker 1: plus impact art representing the scrappiness of an indie and
Speaker 1: the ability to be open to different forms of music.
Speaker 1: So we're generalists in that sense, you know. And at
Speaker 1: the same time, we're we're we're we're broadly generalists and
Speaker 1: globalists that we want to create an impact that an
Speaker 1: impact of a major can can can provide. So therefore,
Speaker 1: the short answer is we're open to things that can
Speaker 1: really move culture and move units and and be big
Speaker 1: global Okay, talking presently, let's just say I'm a rock band.
Speaker 1: I have fewer than a million streams on Spotify, and
Speaker 1: I don't have a big audience on YouTube. But when
Speaker 1: you when people see them this act, they say, this
Speaker 1: is unbelievable. Yeah, what does what does warners say that?
Speaker 1: I think we? I think we. Then it's a value judgment,
Speaker 1: you know. Then it's like, do we have a vision?
Speaker 1: Do we have a shared vision for this artist? When
Speaker 1: we sit down with them, we're excited about them, we
Speaker 1: see potential. So it's old school A and R. You know,
Speaker 1: it's old school marketing. It's like Hey, do we see
Speaker 1: a path for this artist that maybe not everybody sees,
Speaker 1: you know, and everybody has their own unique lens that
Speaker 1: they look at artists through. Because once then, by the way,
Speaker 1: even if the data is great, you know, and the
Speaker 1: data points you in a certain direction, uh, there are
Speaker 1: a number of labels that won't go after something they
Speaker 1: have because that then it comes down to the taste
Speaker 1: and the culture within the label and where the artist
Speaker 1: fits and do we have a point of view, do
Speaker 1: we have a vision for this artist and does is
Speaker 1: it shared with the artist? And so you know, there
Speaker 1: are very few artists that that all labels go for,
Speaker 1: you know, and for different reasons, but a lot of
Speaker 1: it is cultural. They just they don't mesh up nicely.
Speaker 1: You have a good meeting with one label, you have
Speaker 1: not such a good meeting with another label. And so
Speaker 1: from our standpoint, you know, it's can be data driven,
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, we have to
Speaker 1: feel the music. Okay. So you stated earlier that you've
Speaker 1: uh moved Warner more into the urban sphere. So if
Speaker 1: you look at the data today, if we look at
Speaker 1: Spotify top fifty, that is almost all hip hop and
Speaker 1: pop and for those people who don't make that kind
Speaker 1: of music. Is a major label the right place for them?
Speaker 1: Are you interested in them? So that we have an artist,
Speaker 1: Suburban that we signed right now and and which is
Speaker 1: streaming like a growing pop hip hop artist, but he's
Speaker 1: like more rock leaning, you know, and now starting to
Speaker 1: try at alternative radio. So okay, so let's start with that.
Speaker 1: When you signed Suburban, what was the status of both
Speaker 1: the act and touring and data, etcetera. It was just
Speaker 1: a song that an Indian put out that we noticed
Speaker 1: that was that was that was streaming, that was moving.
Speaker 1: It wasn't six million globally like it is now, but
Speaker 1: it was and it got our attention. And then you
Speaker 1: get into the qualitative part of it, Okay, the subjective part.
Speaker 1: You know, we thought that we heard a couple more songs.
Speaker 1: We were excited by that, we've met the kids. Okay,
Speaker 1: just to be clear, someone on your team just found it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like you were pitched by a manager region.
Speaker 1: It was very early and there and and and the
Speaker 1: song it was with an indie called NCS out of
Speaker 1: the UK, so we had to go through that as well.
Speaker 1: But one of our and R guys Stephen Max cited it,
Speaker 1: picked it up, somebody tipped him to it, He dug
Speaker 1: in deeply. He went out and met the artist the
Speaker 1: whole thing and brought it in and said, hey, I
Speaker 1: want to sign this, and we shared that vision. And
Speaker 1: then we when we met Suburban the artist, we thought
Speaker 1: he was terrific. He we thought he had potential. He
Speaker 1: played a couple more songs, told us his vision for
Speaker 1: his video of Cradles that just dropped a week or
Speaker 1: two ago, and we thought, yeah, we we believe we
Speaker 1: share that vision. Okay, if you sign an act like that,
Speaker 1: is it a traditional deals shall we say, pre internet?
Speaker 1: Where you get a royalty depending on whether it's wholesale retail,
Speaker 1: you know, twelve to twenty or is it more of
Speaker 1: a revenue split after costs? What? What is? There's no
Speaker 1: such thing as a standard deal, but someone in that position,
Speaker 1: what kind of deal might they be a? You know,
Speaker 1: to be honest, I don't remember that specific deal, but
Speaker 1: there's there. There's all sorts of deals that can happen
Speaker 1: now and it depends, like everything, it depends on what
Speaker 1: you want, how that fits with our economics, What leverage
Speaker 1: you have, what leverage we have, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and how you're positioned within within the genre, because there's
Speaker 1: certain genres that are leaning more towards ventures now where
Speaker 1: others are more royalty leaning um, which which more hip hop,
Speaker 1: more hip hop, some pop, but more hip hop because
Speaker 1: hip hop, those are leading in which way a little
Speaker 1: bit more venture, a little more profit shares. But there's exceptions,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and and we're not you know,
Speaker 1: we're open to whatever as long as we have a
Speaker 1: fairly you know, long term you know, um investment or
Speaker 1: a long term relationship with the act over you know,
Speaker 1: four or five albums. You know, we'll do we'll do
Speaker 1: lesser from time to time, but our feeling is that
Speaker 1: this is a long term relationship. We're going to build
Speaker 1: a lot of asset value together, and you know, we're
Speaker 1: gonna invest and you know, you know, the odds, the
Speaker 1: odds are that it won't work, you know, and and
Speaker 1: so but we're going to go in and seven figure
Speaker 1: level and in almost every case, and and you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes high seven figure levels before we really see what
Speaker 1: we've got. And and we're up for that. So we
Speaker 1: want to know we're in it together. Forget the Bidding
Speaker 1: War Act the average act at this point. You know,
Speaker 1: people don't use this term that much anymore, But is
Speaker 1: it going to have to be a three sixty deal?
Speaker 1: We prefer those and and look at the view on that,
Speaker 1: and they're not as egregious as they used to be
Speaker 1: when people are taking of everything that that I haven't
Speaker 1: seen for a long time. Um, we have a longer,
Speaker 1: more partnership approach we have. We do have a merch
Speaker 1: company and an artist called Artist Services. They're very good
Speaker 1: at what they do. They handle both artists within the
Speaker 1: Warner Music Group and outside. So we feel we can
Speaker 1: scale that in terms of the requirement if you don't
Speaker 1: have a merch deal to sign with your house is
Speaker 1: not it is not. We'd prefer it, and but it
Speaker 1: makes things easier on on on a DTC level, on
Speaker 1: a v I P level, on a merched level, we
Speaker 1: can we it's more holistic and and and there's a
Speaker 1: there's a shorter line of communication, that more efficient line
Speaker 1: of communication. Okay, So I've always wondered people might say,
Speaker 1: and I'm not who I'm talking about history as opposed
Speaker 1: to you, and uh, specifically that royalties are not that
Speaker 1: accurate or get paid by the labels, How does the
Speaker 1: label ensure that they're not screwed by the act I'm
Speaker 1: touring in whatever other income there is. Well, we have
Speaker 1: we have language in the agreements that we expect people
Speaker 1: to honor. And at the end of the day, there
Speaker 1: are acts. Most acts do pay you and there and
Speaker 1: they there's there, they step up and there may be
Speaker 1: some accounting that that is might be missing a piece
Speaker 1: or two from time to time, so you have to
Speaker 1: sometimes have that conversation. But by and large, the acts
Speaker 1: or stand up acts and the ones that choose maybe
Speaker 1: not to pay you, there's recourse, um, you know, and
Speaker 1: and you'd prefer to avoid that and just have a
Speaker 1: straight up relationship. Um, but you know, there's future advances
Speaker 1: and royalties and this and that, and you might have
Speaker 1: a language in the deal that says, hey, we can
Speaker 1: recover you know, unpaid three sixty revenue from somewhere else. Um.
Speaker 1: It depends on the deal, It depends on the label
Speaker 1: and when it was done, you know, but we'd prefer
Speaker 1: not to get Okay, So let's just assume I have,
Speaker 1: you know, a three album deal within five years and
Speaker 1: it plays out and we both decide to go our
Speaker 1: separate ways. Let's just assume you own the Masters, Okay, uh?
Speaker 1: Is there are there any sunset clauses or anything on
Speaker 1: these other streams of revenue. There may be, you know,
Speaker 1: there may be, but more likely when when our deal expires,
Speaker 1: it expires and you move on. But there may be
Speaker 1: a sunset clause depending on the nature of the conversation
Speaker 1: at the time of the deal was done. Let's go
Speaker 1: to the other extreme, someone like Little Nasax, someone who's
Speaker 1: blowing up traditionally hip hop acts in the last thirty
Speaker 1: six months. The data is there, they're streaming, they're part
Speaker 1: of are is that something you're interested in getting into?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, something that has proven itself such that they
Speaker 1: are willing to go with a major label. But the
Speaker 1: deal is going to be harsh. Yeah. Look, and by
Speaker 1: the way, that the deal for a Little nos X
Speaker 1: wasn't harsh, you know. Um, But look, we have an
Speaker 1: act called n l E. Choppa and Choppa had a
Speaker 1: track called shot a Flow, or has a track called
Speaker 1: shot a Flow which blew up and it was on
Speaker 1: an indie called United Masters. And you know, but it
Speaker 1: was one of the United Masters what's his name? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so so, but he didn't really have any futures, you know,
Speaker 1: he had a he had a short window. Um, and
Speaker 1: so we went after it and and and it was
Speaker 1: a very robust deal and at the end of the
Speaker 1: day we penciled it out and we got the deal. Um.
Speaker 1: We developed. We believe in the kid. We think with
Speaker 1: his name is Bryson. We think he's a star and
Speaker 1: just dropped a track in a video called Camelot, which
Speaker 1: is exploding million streams a week globally. He's he's a
Speaker 1: video you know figure. He just reacts video wise as well,
Speaker 1: and we feel like we got one, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: but he's it's a little early for we're now crossing
Speaker 1: in into urban radio. It's more of a traditional move
Speaker 1: in that sense. Little Nazex has proven to be more
Speaker 1: of a pop facing act at the moment. We're very
Speaker 1: envious of his of his success and excited for for Columbia.
Speaker 1: But you know, we feel like, you know, we've got
Speaker 1: a couple of our own that we're building as well.
Speaker 1: But we're up. We're up for picking up quick hits.
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, we're in that business. But we're also
Speaker 1: in the long term artist development business. Okay, but that
Speaker 1: you're signing more urban artists as opposed to the old
Speaker 1: album cycle. So let's assume you signed an active urban
Speaker 1: urban and pop. But at the same time, we're broadening.
Speaker 1: We're a full service company. We've signed rock acts, we
Speaker 1: signed you know, we're we're open to just great artists. Okay,
Speaker 1: So let's but just for the sake of discussion, well,
Speaker 1: any new artists you signed. Okay, in the old days,
Speaker 1: everybody wanted to make their album. Let's just assume I
Speaker 1: don't have incredible traction in the marketplace. What is the
Speaker 1: label going to say relative to product? The label is
Speaker 1: gonna say, let's we're gonna air on the side of
Speaker 1: putting out more product than less. We're gonna do it
Speaker 1: in a way that is customer bespoke to that artist trajectory.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it, uh my
Speaker 1: British relationship. We're gonna do it in a fashion where
Speaker 1: we feel like we have the story and the content
Speaker 1: build around it that makes sense. We're gonna learn probably
Speaker 1: more a track by track and maybe an EP or
Speaker 1: a mixtape depending on what genre it's in. Um and
Speaker 1: but albums are albums still matter because albums become sort
Speaker 1: of the anchor in most cases for the artist brand.
Speaker 1: You know, what do you name the tour? What's the
Speaker 1: theme to what the artist is doing at the moment,
Speaker 1: What are this what's the storyline through the album? In
Speaker 1: many cases, that is the narrative that takes this beyond
Speaker 1: just music and and and just a video. So it's
Speaker 1: talked about socially, it's talked about in fashion. Remember, these
Speaker 1: artists are brands. They have they have they there are
Speaker 1: three and there are three sixty brands in the sense
Speaker 1: that they can do once they're established and they don't
Speaker 1: even have to be that big start working with brands
Speaker 1: and being considered for film and TV, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a multimedia kind of marketplace now and
Speaker 1: we need to to to keep that in mind whenever
Speaker 1: we do things. So the the the cycle you know,
Speaker 1: is always on. However, you have to have a reason
Speaker 1: to come to market with music. You can't just put
Speaker 1: it out in hope. And so that's where we work
Speaker 1: very hard, and that's part of the brand building and
Speaker 1: the narrative and the storyline that that really is the
Speaker 1: essential part of like why this artist, why now? Why
Speaker 1: this music? Why this video, et cetera. What's the story. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's just say you have an artist and a new
Speaker 1: artist real watively unknown. Is it basically fishing? You put
Speaker 1: out single and single and then once if hopefully you
Speaker 1: get traction, then you work on that single specifically. Um,
Speaker 1: that's one. That's one strategy. Yeah, And and that's that's
Speaker 1: a fairly tried and true strategy. And and what you're
Speaker 1: doing with the singles, you're not necessary or the songs
Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call the tracks. You're not
Speaker 1: expecting everyone to be a single single means kind of
Speaker 1: your you're you're out with the expectation that it's some
Speaker 1: form of a hit. You know, you're you're, you're Sometimes
Speaker 1: you're just telling a story. You know. We might be
Speaker 1: out with a single and put out a couple of
Speaker 1: tracks because maybe that maybe that single needs sort of
Speaker 1: sustenance under it and more of the artist conversation, something
Speaker 1: for the artist to talk about while they're while they're
Speaker 1: working the single, something for the fans to relate to,
Speaker 1: or it has a different reason. So it's all, it's
Speaker 1: all custom, it's all, it's all individually done. Okay, Now,
Speaker 1: my friend Richard Griffiths who managed One Direction and still
Speaker 1: manages Nile Horran and a million million other people. He said,
Speaker 1: a stiff no longer hurt you. That if you put
Speaker 1: out a single it doesn't succeed, there's no tarnish your
Speaker 1: career as long as you come up with hit thereafter.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think I'd largely
Speaker 1: agree with that. But I would say, you know, failure
Speaker 1: always stings, and and and and and it always hopefully
Speaker 1: it's a learning moment and a learning experience, and you
Speaker 1: don't double down on something that didn't work. But but
Speaker 1: you've got it. You can't have too many failures in
Speaker 1: a row, you know. And then, because I think, then
Speaker 1: the question is are we doing the right thing? Is
Speaker 1: this the right music? Is this the right artist? Is
Speaker 1: this actually somebody we can scale to your point earlier,
Speaker 1: our point earlier? Failure is the norm, you know, success
Speaker 1: is unusual when you give up. Okay, So going back
Speaker 1: to the I didn't really formulate this question back to
Speaker 1: the Spotify top fifty, which is essentially hip hop and pop.
Speaker 1: Well that I know you're a full service company, but
Speaker 1: would you leave that way because that is definitive of
Speaker 1: a lucrative marketplace. Well, I mean we have to be competitive, right,
Speaker 1: we have to. We have a I have a p
Speaker 1: n L to to meet, I have a budget to
Speaker 1: to serve to our our owner, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and and our team, and so of course we have
Speaker 1: to be we have to serve the market and what
Speaker 1: the market wants. But you know that doesn't mean you're
Speaker 1: just I mean, what the mistake we could make was
Speaker 1: just doing the same thing that everybody else is doing,
Speaker 1: going to try and to find another little naz X
Speaker 1: or whatever, who's a needle in a haystack, by the way,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, you know, but we want to
Speaker 1: find something that we think is next. Is next in
Speaker 1: hip hop and pop and and you know, pop and
Speaker 1: hip hop and music mute mutate every day. They mutate
Speaker 1: all the time, you hear it. Sounds come in, flavors
Speaker 1: come in, hairstyles come in, you know, fashion comes in
Speaker 1: different ways of breaking things. TikTok didn't matter a year ago,
Speaker 1: it's now it's now pushing artists up into the ecosystem
Speaker 1: dramatically and quickly. Um So, yeah, but you know, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if the next thing that came along
Speaker 1: with some new form of rock that that stunned everybody.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, it wasn't long ago. The twenty
Speaker 1: one pilots, you know, kind of just made this gargantian
Speaker 1: leap from from the alternative sort of touring business to
Speaker 1: having pop hits. You know, Um, I I see that
Speaker 1: coming again. You know it's it's definitely on it. So
Speaker 1: so you know, you can't chase after a genre that
Speaker 1: isn't working. That would be fool harder. You do have
Speaker 1: to pay attention to the market forces, but you can't
Speaker 1: also ignore the fact that music and genres mutate and
Speaker 1: and red redefine and reinvent themselves. Well, certainly on Spotify
Speaker 1: were all the data of the terms of the number
Speaker 1: of streams is visible to everybody if they know how
Speaker 1: to extract it from the desktop. Although it's on the
Speaker 1: most successful singles on every app. Uh, that's hard data.
Speaker 1: How important is the Billboard chart to you? Billboard chart
Speaker 1: is important? Um, it's it's it's it's a it's a
Speaker 1: measure success. It's marketing, it's advertising, it's it's a way
Speaker 1: to kind of look at your competition. We are a business.
Speaker 1: We have to have key performance indicators that we can
Speaker 1: show to justify our needs and also to pitch to
Speaker 1: artists and managers and lawyers and say, look, we're competitive,
Speaker 1: we have x number of records in the top one hundred.
Speaker 1: We have this sort of market share, this sort of
Speaker 1: chart share. This is why we're viable, and and and
Speaker 1: and and and so it does matter. And do we
Speaker 1: live and die off of it every day? No, you know,
Speaker 1: because every day is a different day. We have different
Speaker 1: needs and goals as we as we move along. But
Speaker 1: charts matter, and charts. Charts are also fun. It's fun
Speaker 1: to be number one, top ten, good to be the king.
Speaker 1: It is. But what about you know, many people say
Speaker 1: there's manipulation on the chart now because people are bundlings. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, that's a form of manipulation. It is.
Speaker 1: It is, it is official, it is we we all
Speaker 1: have opportunity to do it. UM. I don't think that
Speaker 1: it's artificial in most cases. I think that it's if
Speaker 1: someone's gaming it, then they're smarter than I am, and
Speaker 1: and that's not hard to do. But you know, being
Speaker 1: smarter than me not it. But you know, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's unique that you can really drive that much UM
Speaker 1: product you know, you have to be a pretty substantial
Speaker 1: to make it matter to begin with. So so you've
Speaker 1: got to get there first and then you can figure out,
Speaker 1: you know, what maneuvers you can make. But you know,
Speaker 1: my my feeling is like game on, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, as if the consumer is parting with their
Speaker 1: hard earned money and they're voting for their artists, and
Speaker 1: as long as you're not doing something that that is
Speaker 1: is untoward and and and and and you're gaming it,
Speaker 1: then then so be it. But it should be transparent.
Speaker 1: It should be clear what the rules are. It should
Speaker 1: it shouldn't war for every three months because somebody's lobbying,
Speaker 1: you know, to get a number one. It should we
Speaker 1: know it's this and it's not that, and it should
Speaker 1: be very clear. And billboards making great strides to do that, Okay.
Speaker 1: And how important is radio today? Radio is very important today? Um,
Speaker 1: different in a different way than it was before because
Speaker 1: radio is a lot of different things now too, um
Speaker 1: because they you know, they have streaming capabilities. Certainly I
Speaker 1: heeart does and and and XM serious. XM is is
Speaker 1: a great are great marketers, and they're they're great at
Speaker 1: you know, providing a really interesting service and what they do.
Speaker 1: Um and you know, when you look at what I
Speaker 1: Heeart does and and some of the other chains they
Speaker 1: they build out and have, you know, shows and TV
Speaker 1: shows and events, uh and brand affiliations, it can be
Speaker 1: very very helpful. Um So, while while we're going through
Speaker 1: a phase where airplay itself isn't maybe where people discover
Speaker 1: music the way they used to five or six years ago,
Speaker 1: there's an element of that that is still there with
Speaker 1: a certain consumer that maybe isn't streaming or just loves
Speaker 1: radio and they love the theater of radio and in
Speaker 1: the relationship they have with it because as you remember,
Speaker 1: radio's local, you know, whereas you know, streaming is global,
Speaker 1: and you know, and and so there's an opportunity at
Speaker 1: that raded that the smart programmers and smart marketers at
Speaker 1: radio have to continue to to amplify both the scale
Speaker 1: of what they've got and actually keep things local and
Speaker 1: and you know, it's a it's a different form of entertainment.
Speaker 1: But we don't live and die on radio quite the
Speaker 1: same way we used to. But in order to really
Speaker 1: scale a hit song, you've got to have radio. Okay, Now,
Speaker 1: in you know, decades past, a record could have less
Speaker 1: than a two month lifespan on radio. Now the record
Speaker 1: can go for a year. Okay, how do you feel?
Speaker 1: And of course, Lizzo, the record is in the marketplace
Speaker 1: for a long time before it gets on radio. How
Speaker 1: does this affect you on your red I'm sure you're
Speaker 1: frustrated to throw on slots on these stations. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: look yes, but at the same time, you know, there,
Speaker 1: I don't feel it's that I don't feel we're that
Speaker 1: challenged at the moment. I think it's always hard to
Speaker 1: get your song played and and to explain a new song,
Speaker 1: especially off a new act, and so forth and so on.
Speaker 1: And the Lizzo story is amazing. Hats off to her
Speaker 1: and to her team in Atlantic. Um. But yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: like I'd like it to cycle in and out. I'd like,
Speaker 1: you know, they're not to be thirty week number one records.
Speaker 1: I'd like, you know, we'd like to see it be
Speaker 1: more fluid. Um pop still is pretty good at that,
Speaker 1: you know, um other formats alternative seems to take forever. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's healthy for the formats and healthy
Speaker 1: for the it's certainly not healthy for the artists and
Speaker 1: and you know, for us, we're partners with radio, So
Speaker 1: I just think it's a challenge. They have to kind
Speaker 1: of think their way through it. But they're they're selling advertising,
Speaker 1: they're in they're in a different game than we are.
Speaker 1: They need familiarity and comfort, and the listener wants it,
Speaker 1: needs to go there and and and and feel like
Speaker 1: they are being super served with what they want and need.
Speaker 1: Unfamiliarity is challenging. It doesn't It isn't always something that
Speaker 1: the consumer wants. Okay, So in the old day, certain
Speaker 1: publicity goals be on late night TV, be covered in
Speaker 1: the newspaper. Uh eight of those things work and be
Speaker 1: if and if they do or they do not. Where
Speaker 1: you focus your marketing efforts these days? Yeah, well, just
Speaker 1: sit to answer the last part of that question. A
Speaker 1: lot of the marketing efforts is some form of digital connection,
Speaker 1: you know, a social connection. So whether that's you know,
Speaker 1: paid uh paid media to to bring attention to an act,
Speaker 1: or whether it's uh moving artists into a space or
Speaker 1: creating content. Let's just be a little you know, let's
Speaker 1: assume you're buying as your paid media. What would that
Speaker 1: literally look like online? It depends on which on which
Speaker 1: which platform here which platform is, Well, we use all
Speaker 1: of them and and they're different depending on the song
Speaker 1: in the genre and how the artist moves and whether
Speaker 1: the urban or pop or let's start with the big
Speaker 1: cohuna Instagram. What might you do on Instagram? Well, instagrams,
Speaker 1: you know, that's more of an artist to fan, you know,
Speaker 1: relationship and and and and unless you know, we'll we'll
Speaker 1: do some we'll do some paid media on that. But
Speaker 1: it's it's it's more of a of what you put
Speaker 1: up their content wise, so we'll invest in content, whatever
Speaker 1: that is. We'll invest in whatever that means the story,
Speaker 1: whether it's fashion one moment or whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: teasing the song the next moment or showing something from
Speaker 1: the live show. And that's artists driven. That's really that's
Speaker 1: really direct relationship, as direct as you can get from
Speaker 1: the artists to their to their following. You know. And
Speaker 1: what would you advertise or do something on Twitter? Probably
Speaker 1: not we I mean, we we will do things on Twitter,
Speaker 1: and we won't advertise much on Twitter, um, but but
Speaker 1: you know, we'll try things out. And Facebook has Facebook
Speaker 1: still is relevant for a certain type of acts, and
Speaker 1: obviously they have the biggest scale out there and you
Speaker 1: can move the needle. We did it recently with Michael
Speaker 1: bou Bleg you know and and and what did you
Speaker 1: actually do? We took some ads that that pointed to
Speaker 1: this song forever Now, and it was an activation that
Speaker 1: happened organically off of a mom's related site and there
Speaker 1: was a little bit slower taking the ads on Facebook
Speaker 1: and then what so, here's what happened. There was a
Speaker 1: video for forever Now. Michael has a song out Forever
Speaker 1: and Now, off his last latest album, and the video
Speaker 1: was about essentially a kid growing that an empty room
Speaker 1: that changed as a kid grew old, and then the
Speaker 1: kid went off to college and the boxes went up
Speaker 1: and it happened to be picked up by um I
Speaker 1: believe motherly dot com a side directed to moms at
Speaker 1: the time when kids were going back to school, and
Speaker 1: so it evoked an emotion and it went viral, and
Speaker 1: so we were looking to spend that into more spends
Speaker 1: it radio and more sales of the album. So we
Speaker 1: took some ads to to kind of to to amplify
Speaker 1: that that emotion, to amplify that video and to point
Speaker 1: to people, and then we got our press department involved
Speaker 1: so it was. I think Hoda was talking about it
Speaker 1: on the Today Show, and you know, we brought it
Speaker 1: to everybody's attention. That's our job, that's the amplification part
Speaker 1: of it. You might miss it if we didn't publicize it.
Speaker 1: You might miss it if we didn't advertise it. And
Speaker 1: we have the resources and the staff to do that.
Speaker 1: You know, that's what a major label staying with a
Speaker 1: major label. Chance the rapper famously did not have a MA.
Speaker 1: But is c Suee generous? Is there just one of him?
Speaker 1: Or how often are you interested in the act? They
Speaker 1: say no, I want to do it myself. What happened
Speaker 1: very seldom. Chance appears to be a bit of a unicorn.
Speaker 1: They come along every so often and Pat more power
Speaker 1: to him and his team. You know, we actually have
Speaker 1: a label deal with his manager, Pat Corkran that we
Speaker 1: just spun up this year and it's going well. Uh
Speaker 1: so um. But but to me, that's unusual. But but
Speaker 1: in terms of the scale that Chance achieved, But there
Speaker 1: are a lot of acts were being independent might work
Speaker 1: better for them. It depends on how they want to move,
Speaker 1: how they want to be flexible, whether they really want
Speaker 1: to be global superstars. Do they want to have hits?
Speaker 1: They want to stare, you know, out and into that
Speaker 1: vast void and say I can conquer this. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a big undertaking and and it takes a
Speaker 1: lot of ambition, focus, and talent, and not everybody has
Speaker 1: all three of those. Now, let's assume you sign everybody's
Speaker 1: a go. What do you say to the acts about
Speaker 1: participation in social media? Well, it looks that they have
Speaker 1: to be natives, they have to feel comfortable with it,
Speaker 1: but they've but it's been really benefits them to be
Speaker 1: in it. And I think it'd be very tough to
Speaker 1: sign an act that just said, hey, I'm not doing anything,
Speaker 1: you know, having said that, there's no rules, we'd have
Speaker 1: to see. Maybe that's the next great move. It's not
Speaker 1: to be involved in social media, but it would make
Speaker 1: it harder for everybody most likely. Let's just assume you
Speaker 1: had a campaign on one social media platform. Facebook is
Speaker 1: probably the easiest, and you didn't go viral. It wasn't
Speaker 1: a matter of you know, some other website picking it up.
Speaker 1: Is that effective? Just pure like a pure advertising play? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it depends on the artists. Usually for something like that,
Speaker 1: that's very traditional brand marketing. It's like we have a
Speaker 1: known brand we're communicating, or a known artist we're communicating
Speaker 1: the new album that's coming out. We know where they're following.
Speaker 1: Is the research tells us this, The insight tells us
Speaker 1: how to move of the analysis points to Facebook. You know,
Speaker 1: let's go where this artists fans are on Facebook and
Speaker 1: make sure they know that this album single video is
Speaker 1: coming out. Let's go back to the beginning. So you
Speaker 1: grew up where I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Seattle, Washington.
Speaker 1: What did your parents do for a living? My mother
Speaker 1: was a homemaker and my father was a math professor
Speaker 1: at the University of Washington. What professor, math professor, math professor.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that the University of Washington. How many
Speaker 1: kids of the family. Three? I have two older sisters. Well,
Speaker 1: one lives in Connecticut and uh and she's she's now
Speaker 1: full time mom. And my other sister, who's living in
Speaker 1: la is a lawyer since retired. So did your parents
Speaker 1: and your father is certainly a highly educated person. Did
Speaker 1: they impart to you a certain direction they wanted you
Speaker 1: to go in? Now, my my parents would go make
Speaker 1: yourself happy do something you love. And they never really
Speaker 1: understood what I do, but they really liked it. They
Speaker 1: liked that I was happy. Okay, So how big a
Speaker 1: music fan were you growing up? Oh? Pretty big? But
Speaker 1: I honestly never knew it was a business. It never
Speaker 1: occurred to me like I could have a career in
Speaker 1: the music business. I thought. I just never thought of
Speaker 1: it as a job. And I kind of still don't,
Speaker 1: which is the great thing. So I lucked into it,
Speaker 1: you know, I looked into Okay, so you were you
Speaker 1: went to college where U c l A U CE.
Speaker 1: How did you end up going to u c l A.
Speaker 1: I My dad said, you have to go two states
Speaker 1: away minimum and I'll pay for school, but you have
Speaker 1: to go to a public school, the best schools two
Speaker 1: states away. We're in California. And I got into u
Speaker 1: c l A. And because I was a big sports
Speaker 1: fan and I was also a soccer player, and um,
Speaker 1: I thought, I'm gonna try to make the team at
Speaker 1: U c l A. And I made the JV team
Speaker 1: for two years and that was a lot of fun
Speaker 1: and uh, but I always thought the U c l
Speaker 1: A was the coolest school out there. And I still
Speaker 1: feel that. Okay, what was your father's logic on the
Speaker 1: two states away? He wanted you to go out. He said, Look,
Speaker 1: while you can be supported and we're not gonna give
Speaker 1: you a lot of money, but we're gonna give you
Speaker 1: enough to live on. You can figure out how life
Speaker 1: really works, and you're gonna manage your life. And you'll
Speaker 1: have a little bit of a resource to do that with.
Speaker 1: Will be there if the ship hits the fan. But
Speaker 1: you know you need to go at least two states wis.
Speaker 1: You can't just run home every time there's a problem. Okay,
Speaker 1: how good a soccer player were you? Pretty good but
Speaker 1: not good enough? When did you realize you weren't good enough?
Speaker 1: Kind of the first day I showed up and there
Speaker 1: were players from the U. S Olympic team on the field,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, maybe I fight try really hard,
Speaker 1: and and I had. I had great fun, but I
Speaker 1: never was quite good enough to make the varsity. Okay,
Speaker 1: did you get playing time when you were in the
Speaker 1: j V? Oh? Yeah, I started every game. And then
Speaker 1: how did you decide I'm done? Uh? You know, I
Speaker 1: realized after two seasons the coach was just playing as
Speaker 1: scholarship players because I practiced with the varsity all the time,
Speaker 1: and I thought, I'm good enough to play on this team,
Speaker 1: and I probably was, but you know, it wasn't. Maybe
Speaker 1: one of his guys and all that. And then sadly
Speaker 1: the assistant coach kind of liked me. Was this guy
Speaker 1: famous soccer coach. Later on, it turned out the guy
Speaker 1: named Ziggi Schmidt who coached the Galaxy and Seattle Sounders
Speaker 1: and the US Under twenty men's team, and he liked me,
Speaker 1: and I think he kept putting me into the pra
Speaker 1: this is and I'd mark out the forward and I
Speaker 1: was a defender, and I'd take care of the ford
Speaker 1: and do a pretty good job. And but but then
Speaker 1: I just I just said, you know, I gotta go
Speaker 1: figure out what I'm gonna do with my life. I
Speaker 1: can't spend the whole summer and the whole fall playing soccer,
Speaker 1: you know, and then think about it the rest of
Speaker 1: the year. And so um, I went off, you know,
Speaker 1: looking for other things to do. But it's kind of
Speaker 1: heartbreaking to give up the dream. Yeah, you know what,
Speaker 1: it was the right time, though, And when you give
Speaker 1: up the dream, sometimes the dream has given up on
Speaker 1: you as well. And but I played. I played until
Speaker 1: I was forty seven. You know, really, you know where
Speaker 1: did you play? All over the place? But last time
Speaker 1: at Chelsea Piers, New York five aside. Then I just
Speaker 1: realized as a step behind and about ten years too
Speaker 1: old to do it, and I hung up the spot.
Speaker 1: He played. He went to school at Clarmont McKennon. He
Speaker 1: played four years there is he is a good player. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: So you go to U C l A and you
Speaker 1: drop out of the soccer track. So then you say,
Speaker 1: I want to find your way. How does it end
Speaker 1: up being music? Well between junior and senior year, Well,
Speaker 1: let me actually rewinding. I was in a fraternity. A
Speaker 1: couple of my fraternity brothers intern at A and M Records,
Speaker 1: and they would come on the people we would know
Speaker 1: they are not They got out of the business many
Speaker 1: years ago. One guy never got beyond an internship. Um
Speaker 1: and then they but they would come home with albums
Speaker 1: and concert tickets and they always had a nice looking
Speaker 1: girl in their arm. And I thought, that's something I'm
Speaker 1: interested in. But I just thought I'd do it as
Speaker 1: an intern and I was supposed to go do it
Speaker 1: a paid internship in the Justice Department and it got
Speaker 1: canceled and my parents and I said, well, can I
Speaker 1: just go to do an unpaid internship in d C?
Speaker 1: And they said no, we won't pay for it, and
Speaker 1: which which is looking back on it turned out to
Speaker 1: be exactly. And then that night I got a knock
Speaker 1: on on my door and about midnight and my frister
Speaker 1: living at the fraternity. Living at the frat, my fraternity brother,
Speaker 1: Richard Creo, came in and he said, hey, you remember
Speaker 1: we talked about this thing a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1: Nine o'clock tomorrow, you're coming in with me, And I
Speaker 1: said okay, and kind of the rest is history. I
Speaker 1: was a wide eyed kid who didn't know anything about
Speaker 1: the music business, and I was like, wow, this is amazing. Okay,
Speaker 1: But traditionally, especially back then, that was a very hard
Speaker 1: internship to get, really tough, really tough to irony was.
Speaker 1: I thought it was A and M Records, which this
Speaker 1: other guy had. It turned out to be I R
Speaker 1: S Records. And I had no idea when there was so,
Speaker 1: but I was a pretty big music So what year
Speaker 1: are we in? Approximately one? Okay, so the police have
Speaker 1: already broken I R S is and know quant that's right,
Speaker 1: I and but I r S was just starting to break.
Speaker 1: Literally like the week I started. The Go Goes released
Speaker 1: their first single, and a year later it was multi platinum.
Speaker 1: But they weren't on the map as a label other
Speaker 1: than just being a cool new wave label. Wall of Voodoo,
Speaker 1: you know, the Cramps, etcetera. Wasmon arrees, I mean you
Speaker 1: can go on. Okay, so you work that summer, then
Speaker 1: you go back to school and what go back to school?
Speaker 1: But in turn the whole year and they gave me
Speaker 1: seventy five bucks a week, thank you j Boberg and
Speaker 1: Barba Bowl and give me seventy five bucks a week
Speaker 1: to um to hang around. And so I go to
Speaker 1: school less and less, and I'm hanging around more and
Speaker 1: more at the record lab, and I'm doing odd jobs
Speaker 1: over the week and driving the Go Goes around the concerts,
Speaker 1: doing things like that, things you do, looking after stings
Speaker 1: motorcycle because he was Miles was in and out of
Speaker 1: the business, and it was it was so much fun.
Speaker 1: And uh so I finished school and about a month
Speaker 1: or so before I finished school, they offered me a
Speaker 1: job and I accept on the spot. How much money
Speaker 1: and what kind of job. Well, this is a great story.
Speaker 1: So Bobrick takes me out to dinner at s J
Speaker 1: and those people who watch uh Goliath. That's of course
Speaker 1: where Billy Bob hangs out. That's right. It's a classic
Speaker 1: old watering hole. So we're sitting there was their office
Speaker 1: was weird at the A and M lot. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: which is now Henston Studios. So we go down there
Speaker 1: to dinner and and Jay says, well, we'd like you
Speaker 1: to come be our director of merchandising. I think was
Speaker 1: the first job, whatever that was. And I said, great,
Speaker 1: how much? He goes to fifty a week? And I'm
Speaker 1: think about it for a second, and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: j I didn't go to college to make less than
Speaker 1: three hundred. He goes done, Well, what inspired you to negotiate?
Speaker 1: I had to stick up for myself. But then I
Speaker 1: realized that it was the first bad deal I made.
Speaker 1: You know, I could have come up with an extra
Speaker 1: fifty bucks. Although, funny enough, Jay and I remained friends,
Speaker 1: uh and and he said, you know, Tom, there there
Speaker 1: were weeks when I didn't get paid, so everybody else could.
Speaker 1: So it was probably you know, as much as he
Speaker 1: could he could spring for it and your parents were
Speaker 1: fine with you making three a week. They were fine, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: So you go to work and what does it look like?
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm doing everything. I'm I'm i'm merchandizing
Speaker 1: record stores back in the day when you would put
Speaker 1: up posts. Jason how Jason Flam started to that's right,
Speaker 1: I'm taking inventory. I'm I'm putting. I'm putting clean records,
Speaker 1: commercial records and bands come through town into places like
Speaker 1: Aaron's Record and Vinyl Fetish and liquors, pizza and all
Speaker 1: that because they didn't always take our stock or they
Speaker 1: might be out of stock. We didn't ship a lot
Speaker 1: of records in those days. I'm I'm sometimes going to
Speaker 1: be Okay, let's say Erin's, which was on Melrose, they're
Speaker 1: not stocking a record. You would go in there with
Speaker 1: cleans meaning there's no cutouts, doesn't show to promo, and
Speaker 1: you would just stick them in. Yeah. I talked to
Speaker 1: the doors of the store manager or owner and at
Speaker 1: the end these and I'd say, hey, look um, we
Speaker 1: have R. E. M. Coming to town. Who's that? Well,
Speaker 1: they have this the CP called chronic town. I don't
Speaker 1: see that you have this or you have one copy
Speaker 1: and and k Rock maybe he had just started to
Speaker 1: play it. Rodney might have played it or something in
Speaker 1: a specialty shower or Casey R. Car w is playing
Speaker 1: it where they're just they're selling out this this gig.
Speaker 1: I need to put five in here? Is that okay?
Speaker 1: Sure you took all the revenue. They took all the revenue,
Speaker 1: but we got we got music into people's hands because
Speaker 1: we got no revenue at all. It was it was
Speaker 1: it was seeding the market. And so it was what
Speaker 1: you did. You didn't do it a lot because it's
Speaker 1: not it's not every stainable Christinas model. But but if
Speaker 1: let's active comes to town, who was you know baby
Speaker 1: R e m you know, with Mitch Easter producing them,
Speaker 1: That's that's what we did. And you know, and then
Speaker 1: when sometimes it works, it's like the five thousand you
Speaker 1: know CD singles for Radiohead, Holy Ship It we got
Speaker 1: a hit. It's like, let's go and so and I
Speaker 1: did that, and I and I was I used to
Speaker 1: actually order all the merchandizing, get the art from the
Speaker 1: art department ordered. I learned about printing presses, I learned
Speaker 1: about color separations, I learned about ordering and pricing things.
Speaker 1: I would then get all the stuff in being the
Speaker 1: merchandising warehouse, roll the posters up, box up the flats,
Speaker 1: anything out, ship them out to the distribution people to
Speaker 1: where I first met a bunch of people. Their names
Speaker 1: were on the on the mailing list, ship them out
Speaker 1: all over the US. They would then order more. I
Speaker 1: keep the inventory. I kept all the promos closet full
Speaker 1: of promos of everything today who knows, who knows? And uh,
Speaker 1: hopefully collectible some of it, you know, I mean I
Speaker 1: probably had some highly collectible stuff in there. Okay, so
Speaker 1: how long do you do that job? And then I became,
Speaker 1: you know, director of sales, director of Go Sideways for
Speaker 1: a second. So who else was working there other than
Speaker 1: Jay who sustained Yeah, Jay, and Miles obviously on the
Speaker 1: company and Jayson, Yeah. And Barbara Bowen was a really
Speaker 1: prominent figure. She was probably VP of sales. The world
Speaker 1: famous attack hamster Michael Plin, one of the great promotions
Speaker 1: stories of in the world. A woman named Kyle Heatherington
Speaker 1: who was also a great promotion person who left the
Speaker 1: business a while ago now, but she's she's lovely. A
Speaker 1: young guy named Steve Tipp and I started around the
Speaker 1: same real estate now but worked at Warner for a
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, and Steve and I literally started like
Speaker 1: the same week or two and he went off to Warner,
Speaker 1: and I was always jealous. He got the great, he
Speaker 1: got the great. So now you have a job, you're
Speaker 1: making your three week Is there a dream? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: want to Well, the first once I got over the
Speaker 1: idea after two years that I probably wasn't going to
Speaker 1: go back and get an NBA and get a real job,
Speaker 1: I then was like, you know what, I like this,
Speaker 1: Maybe I want to run one of these companies one day.
Speaker 1: So my ambition pretty much solidified pretty quickly. I'd like
Speaker 1: to be president of a meaningful record label one day.
Speaker 1: And you know, I had I had shots over the
Speaker 1: years of managing artists and doing different things with digital companies,
Speaker 1: and I just I just stayed through the thick and in. Okay,
Speaker 1: so how long were you at I r S four
Speaker 1: years and then what happens next? Then I got the
Speaker 1: break of a career. So, um, I got a guy
Speaker 1: named Gilfrees and a legendary yeah, my mentor, my true mentor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was president of A and M and every so
Speaker 1: often he would hire someone to be his executive assistant.
Speaker 1: These days that would mean secretary, all sort of administrative
Speaker 1: work that it was actually a management trainee position. And
Speaker 1: so Jeff Gold, Jeff Arof et cetera, Michael Leon, some
Speaker 1: guys who, to me, your legendary and we're also mentors
Speaker 1: and friends of mine. Still they were previously in that role.
Speaker 1: So I snatched at it, and I got a nice
Speaker 1: fifty percent raise. I was almost a forty thousand a year.
Speaker 1: Uh then and uh and but it was I got
Speaker 1: to be trained by one of the great thinkers in
Speaker 1: our business, who was really way ahead of most people
Speaker 1: thinking through the business. He would work with people like
Speaker 1: Peter Drucker, the legendary you know, kind of the father
Speaker 1: of the new of the modern masters of business administration,
Speaker 1: um idea and a great a great advisor to many
Speaker 1: many titans of industry. Gil would work with him or
Speaker 1: he'd go think about this differently, that differently, And obviously
Speaker 1: Jerry Moss and Herbalpert just legendary entrepreneurs. And and I
Speaker 1: got to like, you know, play sidecar with Gil for
Speaker 1: five years. It was remarkable. Okay, how did he pick
Speaker 1: you out? But he Jeff Gold right, who now says
Speaker 1: sols memorabilia. But started in your role, became a marketing
Speaker 1: guy exactly. He recommended me, and I think a couple
Speaker 1: other people, my cole and a couple of those people
Speaker 1: were supportive. Um and but I think Jeff was the
Speaker 1: guy that sayd hey, Gil, you should meet this kid,
Speaker 1: and and we headed off and and actually the beauty
Speaker 1: of it is his his My wife was his assistant,
Speaker 1: so it's all in the family. Oh, keid, Okay, how
Speaker 1: long were you in the position working with Gil before
Speaker 1: it was a romance with your wife? A couple of years.
Speaker 1: A couple of years. She she started after me. I
Speaker 1: advised him not to hire her because she didn't really
Speaker 1: want the job, she told me, And then she ended
Speaker 1: up taking the job and work. She didn't want the
Speaker 1: job because she was thinking she was only she's British,
Speaker 1: so she's Susan was thinking she'd only be in town
Speaker 1: for several months with her then boyfriend and uh, gets
Speaker 1: more compliment. Yeah, this is getting too personal. No no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's a great story. Okay, Well keep going. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, she's working there for at least a year
Speaker 1: before we hit it off. And you know, and then
Speaker 1: and then it moved very quickly, and within like a
Speaker 1: year and a half we were married. Okay, when you
Speaker 1: start to hit off, is the boyfriend still in the picture? Briefly?
Speaker 1: And how did it end? How did he get out
Speaker 1: of the picture? I think she told him it was okay,
Speaker 1: wasn't your wasn't on your shoulders? Well, only that I'm irresistible,
Speaker 1: but you know, other than that, you didn't have to
Speaker 1: stand up. He was a great guy. So I felt,
Speaker 1: I honestly felt bally about them. Okay, so you were there?
Speaker 1: Did Jeff Gold? Was he there? And that assist Jeff
Speaker 1: left shortly there after I got into it. But did
Speaker 1: he do it for five years? I don't know how
Speaker 1: long he did the assistant position, but he was. He
Speaker 1: was a proper VP of creative and other things by
Speaker 1: the time I got there. Yeah, so you worked for
Speaker 1: your five years, which brings us to what year? Okay,
Speaker 1: and A and M was sold to PolyGram that's right,
Speaker 1: and Gil left and went on his merry way to
Speaker 1: do his great the great things that he did then
Speaker 1: and and they made me head of marketing VP of
Speaker 1: Marketing and Jake so, uh, this was before Alcafaro took over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was right at the same time. So Al got
Speaker 1: the he at that time, I think either got the
Speaker 1: presidency or GM. I can't remember. He became the leader
Speaker 1: of the company day to day. I got the VP
Speaker 1: of marketing. Gar garen Od came in a few years
Speaker 1: before that to be head of artist development. And Jim
Speaker 1: Jim was a really good friend of mine. Used to
Speaker 1: play basketball every Saturday, you know, at his house one
Speaker 1: on one and and he and Michael Leon and I Michael,
Speaker 1: myself and Michael Leon and there was somebody else involved,
Speaker 1: maybe Wayne Isaac, I can't remember. We recruited Jim into
Speaker 1: the company and uh he did very well. Okay, so
Speaker 1: he was artist development and you were marketing. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: And how long were you there in that position? Only
Speaker 1: for about a year and then when he got poached
Speaker 1: by I got poached by Capital. And how did you
Speaker 1: decide to leave the family? Uh? It was it wasn't Uh,
Speaker 1: it was it was time, you know. I didn't think
Speaker 1: that the new leadership was really the kind of direction
Speaker 1: that I wanted to go, and I could feel the
Speaker 1: company changing. And then I met hell Milgram at a
Speaker 1: dinner party who would come from elector to run Capital,
Speaker 1: that's right. And he was wonderful and you know, and
Speaker 1: then he offered me this great opportunity to run the
Speaker 1: international department at Capital, and I snatched it. It was great.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you ran an international first. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's back then, especially you flew all over the world.
Speaker 1: I flew two air miles a year for three years.
Speaker 1: Would your wife say? She said, come home. I got
Speaker 1: two little kids and I need you home. But are
Speaker 1: you kidding? She was the most supportive person in the world.
Speaker 1: And obviously she had to be, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: because because it was just tough, because there were no
Speaker 1: emails then, no cell phones. It was all landlines and
Speaker 1: texts and landlines and faxes, you know, And and it
Speaker 1: was tough. And after three years, Hail threw me a
Speaker 1: lifeline and pulled me back into run marketing at Capital. Okay, Now,
Speaker 1: ultimately Charles Coppleman and his team took over. Where did
Speaker 1: that leave you? Yeah, well, so Charles came in, um
Speaker 1: changed changed leadership, brought in Gary gersh And, and that
Speaker 1: was a very different perspective. And Gary's super talented guy.
Speaker 1: He was riding the Nirvan Awave at that point in
Speaker 1: County Crows and whatever. So he came in and Gary
Speaker 1: had a very different approach to Hale. But I got
Speaker 1: along fine with Gary. Well what was just for those
Speaker 1: who may not know, what was the difference in approach? Um,
Speaker 1: you know Gary, Gary was more aggressive. He was more
Speaker 1: opinionated about day to day. Um. Not to say that
Speaker 1: Hall didn't have an opinion or a point of view.
Speaker 1: He was an A and R guy and not a
Speaker 1: marketing guy. Um. He was more He was more about
Speaker 1: the band's culture, if you will, and all that, and
Speaker 1: and so I think I got the benefit of both
Speaker 1: of their best you know things. And after a couple
Speaker 1: of years uh with Gary, I got approached by by
Speaker 1: by Sony and and uh about about a little about
Speaker 1: a year and a half with Gary, I got approached
Speaker 1: by by Columbia Records, by Don einer Um. And it
Speaker 1: was a strange time because the north Ridge earthquake had
Speaker 1: just happened. Yeah, I still haven't recovered him now and
Speaker 1: so and and and it scared the hell out of us.
Speaker 1: And in studios in Sherman in Sherman Oaks, which was
Speaker 1: the second most damage that code and so and we
Speaker 1: got a hundred thousand dollars with a damage in at
Speaker 1: our house. That was terrifying. We had two little kids,
Speaker 1: and uh, and then and so we were thinking about
Speaker 1: do we want to live here anymore? And and Donnie
Speaker 1: came in like maybe seven or eight months later and
Speaker 1: offered me. I remember this is Columbia Records at the time,
Speaker 1: which was mighty, you know, and Big Red and its
Speaker 1: glory and Donnie is as the fearless Commander probably almost
Speaker 1: like and um, so you know, I I I thought
Speaker 1: long and hard about it, but it seemed like it
Speaker 1: was the time to go. You know. Our kids were
Speaker 1: five and seven and actually at that point six and four.
Speaker 1: And then so I had to work another year at
Speaker 1: at Capitol and kind of work off my contract and
Speaker 1: then and then Gary was generous enough to let me
Speaker 1: out a bit early and I stepped into the war
Speaker 1: zone with Columbia records. What was that like? It was
Speaker 1: it was a major cultural uh like wake up call.
Speaker 1: Um was in l A. It wasn't uh, it wasn't Capital.
Speaker 1: It was Big Red and Donnie Einner was you know this,
Speaker 1: you know, the Sergeant Rock or the Demand or General
Speaker 1: Patton exactly whatever. I want to say, and a bunch
Speaker 1: of guys in suits and who were number one or one.
Speaker 1: They weren't quite number one when I arrived. They'd fallen
Speaker 1: off for a year or two. And I think Donnie
Speaker 1: was under a lot of pressure. And and so is
Speaker 1: culture shock for me. Initially, it took me a good
Speaker 1: year to figure it out and to figure out how
Speaker 1: I fit in. And I didn't fit in. I was
Speaker 1: a little bit of of of you know, of an
Speaker 1: awkward duck there within that company, of an ugly swan
Speaker 1: or whatever, ugly duckling. And and but I really saw though,
Speaker 1: an incredible machine and it's and it was exactly what
Speaker 1: I needed at the right time. And Donnie was a
Speaker 1: great leader. Now to what degree where you say you
Speaker 1: didn't fit in? How much did you feel the pressure?
Speaker 1: Tremendously tremendous pressure. Remember I was thirty six years old,
Speaker 1: you know, with a wife and two kids, and I
Speaker 1: waited a year to get there, and it was like,
Speaker 1: holy shit, this is hardcore. And Donnie tested me, you know,
Speaker 1: and what would that look like. He's just a he's
Speaker 1: just a fear leader, a hard driver, an emotional guy,
Speaker 1: you know, UM intimidating, um inspiring, you know, uh, one
Speaker 1: of the great recordmen. Uh, you know of all time,
Speaker 1: and and and and you know, look at the track
Speaker 1: record you know, as a label guy, you know, he
Speaker 1: was incredible, you know, and he was he was polarizing.
Speaker 1: You know, it could be very difficult, but uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I have great respect for for him as a as
Speaker 1: a strategist and an executing person who could execute. You're
Speaker 1: you're there when he gets blown out? No, I am
Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, So did you see that coming? You know, yes,
Speaker 1: and no, I mean, I mean I saw it coming
Speaker 1: because I had I was in a much more privileged
Speaker 1: position than many years later in two thousand five maybe.
Speaker 1: So what was your obviously you weren't insider, but what
Speaker 1: was your actual title? Believe I was GM of of
Speaker 1: j R st R, j R R C. I can't
Speaker 1: remember exactly. And and it was recently, you know, the
Speaker 1: companies were recently merged. There were a lot of politics
Speaker 1: going on. You kind of didn't know which side it
Speaker 1: was to come down on, and it came down on
Speaker 1: the BMG side of it. And Donnie was a casualty
Speaker 1: and but I still kind of couldn't believe it. I
Speaker 1: was like God, that guy was like, you know, okay,
Speaker 1: so you worked with Clive? What was that like? Cli?
Speaker 1: Clive was amazing and is amazing. Um, and I have
Speaker 1: a lot of love, yeah, um, and a taskmaster and
Speaker 1: an absolute perfectionist. And nobody works harder, nobody's more strategic,
Speaker 1: and he was. He would manage the minutia down to
Speaker 1: the font on the sticker on the album cover, you know.
Speaker 1: And and at the same time, I have the big
Speaker 1: picture in the vision to both create stars and resurrect superstars,
Speaker 1: you know. And and his his his and he's insatiable.
Speaker 1: You know, he's just incredible. So how did you jump
Speaker 1: to Clive Terrista? I was recruited, you know, this is
Speaker 1: when it was Jake, this is when it was now
Speaker 1: before it turned into correct So I I was it
Speaker 1: aris to about six months, but as a Columbia Records
Speaker 1: company into my deal. Um, I was approached by by
Speaker 1: Arista at breakfast with Clive. And there's a guy named
Speaker 1: Charles Goldstock who's Clive's right hand guy. We need to
Speaker 1: knew each other. We work together. Charles gold Stuck today
Speaker 1: he's doing Hitco with l A. Read so and and
Speaker 1: and so. Charles and I knew each other from Capital.
Speaker 1: He was a CFO there and so um, and it
Speaker 1: was time for me to move. I you know, I
Speaker 1: felt like but they offered me a much better job,
Speaker 1: you know, a bigger job, global head of marketing e VP,
Speaker 1: all this stuff, lots more dough, thank you very much.
Speaker 1: And it was a no brainer. Um, And it was
Speaker 1: time for me to go. And I think culturally it
Speaker 1: was a much better fit for me. What did Donny
Speaker 1: say when you wanted to go, You're making a mistake, said,
Speaker 1: you know, this may be and and this may be
Speaker 1: the last job you tall, having the record business and
Speaker 1: all that. But but at the same time he said, like,
Speaker 1: what can I say? You're gonna go work for Clive?
Speaker 1: I love because that's right. So you know he was
Speaker 1: he was doing his best to to who convince me
Speaker 1: not to go? And then when it's it's apart, you
Speaker 1: go with Claive. I do. And but one thing about Live,
Speaker 1: it's basically his way. What was it like working that way?
Speaker 1: I mean, when you came up with an idea and
Speaker 1: he wasn't so warm about it. I put a lot
Speaker 1: of winds on the board with Clive, you know, but
Speaker 1: because I understood how he how he thinks, and I
Speaker 1: and and and at that point I wasn't I wasn't
Speaker 1: as much of a kid anymore. I had my own confidence.
Speaker 1: And that's what Columbia Records gave me, the belief in
Speaker 1: what I could do. And that's what Donnie wanted. That's
Speaker 1: why he would test you. He would test you to
Speaker 1: make sure you really believed that what you were doing
Speaker 1: was going to work, and then you had to go
Speaker 1: out and do it. That was and that was proof
Speaker 1: of concept, making me feel like, you know, I am
Speaker 1: I am maybe as smart as I think I am sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know. And and he didn't torture you if you fail.
Speaker 1: You know, he would tease you or goof on you
Speaker 1: or whatever, but he would always encourage people that to
Speaker 1: to go for it. And and but he you know,
Speaker 1: he he'd guide you along. He was great. Clive was
Speaker 1: a different version of that, you know. And Clive, You're right,
Speaker 1: Clive had the vision and and got a lot of
Speaker 1: the credit and and and deserves you know it as well.
Speaker 1: But you know, I like to think I helped Clive win.
Speaker 1: Clive takes a lot of credit. We'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1: Certainly can't do without the team. So then how do
Speaker 1: you end up being a you know, the merger happens,
Speaker 1: how do you end up on top? Uh? Which merger
Speaker 1: the Sony b MG merger? Yeah? Yeah, Okay, so there's
Speaker 1: a there's a lot of different Okay, we you're talking
Speaker 1: about just I can't eve remember did j we merge
Speaker 1: with the Arista before? What happened Arista? Arista, l A
Speaker 1: read came in, lives out, We start j Records, and
Speaker 1: you have a lot of success. We have a lot
Speaker 1: of Thank god, we have a lot of success. Um
Speaker 1: we get Arista back A couple of years later, l
Speaker 1: A is losing a lot of money or aristas losing
Speaker 1: a lot of money, but he's got hits, you know,
Speaker 1: so that that comes back into the fold, you know.
Speaker 1: Then Jive is bought by BMG. Then Clive and Charles
Speaker 1: have oversight of BMG North America, which includes Jive, which
Speaker 1: Barry runs autonomously, but he reports into these guys. Um
Speaker 1: So in the meantime, I'm Arista, R C A and
Speaker 1: J become one become our CIA Records. Essentially R C A,
Speaker 1: J R. Cier aris to J and Richard Sanders for
Speaker 1: a while is running R c A. I'm running I'm
Speaker 1: running Aris to j and then Richard. Then the merger happens.
Speaker 1: Richard goes off and runs international for Sony b MG.
Speaker 1: I then become GM of of of r C A
Speaker 1: J Arista. So you're the GM. How do you fly
Speaker 1: up to the next level? So long? So spin it
Speaker 1: up again. In two thousand and eight, Charles leaves the company,
Speaker 1: Clive becomes Chief Creative Officer of Sony. Barry Wise takes over.
Speaker 1: He takes over m r C A Jive. I'm GM
Speaker 1: kind of. He and I hit it off great. I'm
Speaker 1: a big fan of Barry. He's quirky and smart, but
Speaker 1: he's a consummate record guy, very bright, very driven. Three
Speaker 1: years later, Barry ops to go to university. Um Doug
Speaker 1: comes in. At the same time, there's a change in management.
Speaker 1: Doug Morris comes in. He uh looks at Peter and
Speaker 1: me and he says, Okay, you guys run it, but
Speaker 1: I'm taking r C A and I'm retiring JIVE and
Speaker 1: I'm making it just our c A. And so he
Speaker 1: gives us our shot. And I'm very grateful for Doug
Speaker 1: to give us our shot, because as he would he
Speaker 1: said with a little glint in his eye. About two
Speaker 1: years later, he goes like, you know, I didn't know
Speaker 1: you guys are gonna make so And by the way,
Speaker 1: maybe we didn't either, but but through through his support
Speaker 1: and and and and believe we we believe in ourselves.
Speaker 1: But going back to Donnie's comment, when you go to
Speaker 1: Arrow sat, so this is gonna be your last job
Speaker 1: in the record business. For a lot of people, they
Speaker 1: make moves and it is their last job. We ever
Speaker 1: worried that, Hey, you know, there's gonna be a game
Speaker 1: of musical chairs and I'm gonna be left out if
Speaker 1: I if I'm honest, I would say I always believe
Speaker 1: in myself and I didn't think that was gonna happen.
Speaker 1: But but if I'm digging down a little deeply, you
Speaker 1: are there. I'm you know, insecurity drives all of us.
Speaker 1: So I wasn't going to be that guy. Okay, So
Speaker 1: now we're in the present. Obviously you live through the
Speaker 1: knaps Ger era. Uh sales went down and then of
Speaker 1: course in the last couple of years results of streaming,
Speaker 1: they've gone back up. So it used to be the
Speaker 1: record company was king, but now a lot of record
Speaker 1: companies if they buy any tickets for the show, very few.
Speaker 1: They're certainly not buying out clubs like there used to be.
Speaker 1: So where does the record company fit in the ecosystem today? Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's the billion dollar question. But but obviously
Speaker 1: the record company is there for a lot of things
Speaker 1: that's always been there for, which is to to to
Speaker 1: for scale global scale, To work radio, which is very
Speaker 1: difficult to work if you're not in there. To fund
Speaker 1: on a on a big scale, big ideas and small ideas.
Speaker 1: To have expertise, to source to source talent both on
Speaker 1: the A and R side, i e. Producers, engineers, mixers, masters, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Video directors, art directors, photographers, To be able to uh
Speaker 1: sit there and and and sync music on on on
Speaker 1: scale at scale, To be there every day with brands
Speaker 1: where when we come in with hundreds of acts in
Speaker 1: some cases at major labels, but to know who to
Speaker 1: pitch and how to pitch it. When one pitch comes
Speaker 1: in for one act, you know doesn't work for that act,
Speaker 1: but we spend it into another act. You know, so,
Speaker 1: and and and and you know and and just as
Speaker 1: a sounding board, you know, as a sounding board is
Speaker 1: part of the team of experts, because the one thing
Speaker 1: I'll say about major labels is we're there with everybody
Speaker 1: every day through the entire food chain, for better, for worse,
Speaker 1: you know, and hopefully for the better. And so you
Speaker 1: you you gain access, you gain global access. You have
Speaker 1: an affiliation, you have people that are accountable to you.
Speaker 1: As an artist, we're accountable to the artist. Um, you
Speaker 1: have a royalty department, you have business affairs, helps sort
Speaker 1: you through. Then with an independent label, you want to
Speaker 1: talk about not getting paid forgetting I mean not getting
Speaker 1: paid and some of the Look, I'm a big believer
Speaker 1: in independent labels, but you know, they're running a shoestring,
Speaker 1: most of them. It's really tough. And so just so
Speaker 1: in order to stay alive, they've got to have cash flow,
Speaker 1: and we have constant cash flow. They don't always have
Speaker 1: constant cash flow, right never well the old days distribution
Speaker 1: there you couldn't get paid if you were an indie,
Speaker 1: that's right. But okay, so I'm an act. Tell me
Speaker 1: about the relationships with the streaming services. Let's start with
Speaker 1: the paige services, Amazon, Spotify, Apple primarily. How does a
Speaker 1: major label interface with those that's a that's a big question.
Speaker 1: But um, your primary role is to work with the
Speaker 1: the the DSPs, the digital service providers to work on
Speaker 1: playlisting and making sure you're talking to the right editor
Speaker 1: with the right playlist at the right time for the
Speaker 1: right song for the right artists, you know. But it's
Speaker 1: much bigger than that. They have a big platform, they
Speaker 1: have marketing money, they do out of home advertising, they
Speaker 1: have in some cases radio shows, uh, podcasts and things
Speaker 1: and so forth. Uh, they if and and they're not
Speaker 1: created equal. Some are affiliated with hardware Apple. Some are
Speaker 1: affiliated with with digital retail Amazon and have a tremendous
Speaker 1: program called Prime. And I think fourteen markets around the
Speaker 1: world might be more. You have You've got Spotify, which
Speaker 1: is a wonderful you know service both at supported and
Speaker 1: premium that is in a hundred and seventy countries around
Speaker 1: the world, you know, something like that. It provides a
Speaker 1: lot of access around the world. So they're all different.
Speaker 1: And and that's again if you're one person or one
Speaker 1: artist to one manager trying to wrap your head around
Speaker 1: that and trying to get access. And they have boots
Speaker 1: on the ground everywhere, but so do we, you know,
Speaker 1: And and so you're you're you're just dealing with it
Speaker 1: all the time, and you're constantly in a constant, always
Speaker 1: on conversation about what to do. Okay, let's just narrowly
Speaker 1: done to one Spotify hypothetical. Yeah, do you pick and
Speaker 1: choose what you're promoting or do you believe there's a
Speaker 1: playlist for everything? I believe there's a playlist for everything. Actually,
Speaker 1: So you have your priorities and your goal there used
Speaker 1: to get it on the genre playlist. Let's you know
Speaker 1: you have what would you ask for? Well, genre is
Speaker 1: the easiest way to describe it, but someone's lifestyle, some vibe.
Speaker 1: Because that's the sort of trick with what I called
Speaker 1: the playlist generation. You know, many of us do. It's
Speaker 1: not they're not they're not beholding two genre. They may
Speaker 1: they may go for R and B, or go for
Speaker 1: hip hop, or go for pop or rock or whatever.
Speaker 1: But they listen to kind of everything because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of sharing going on out there, especially the younger generation,
Speaker 1: Millennials and younger they're used to their own mix tapes,
Speaker 1: their own they send things, you know, they do their
Speaker 1: own U. G. C. Stuff. They have playlists that you know,
Speaker 1: that's right in different platforms that they and their SoundCloud,
Speaker 1: and there's this, and there's mixed you know, my mix
Speaker 1: tapes and all this stuff. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different ways that they could access music. And when you
Speaker 1: come back to Spotify, you know, Spotify has you playlisting
Speaker 1: ability for people to share and its social and it
Speaker 1: does a good job of that. And and so you know,
Speaker 1: there's the idea that you know, we look at collection
Speaker 1: i e. People collecting songs off of a playlisted uh
Speaker 1: Spotify list and and and the truth is is that
Speaker 1: something like eight of plays are off playlists and sorry,
Speaker 1: are off off bespoke playlist saves playlists not off playlists
Speaker 1: generated boyl the DSP And do you have any uh
Speaker 1: knowledge how many of those are saved because the person
Speaker 1: listened on a playlist or they just cherry picked and
Speaker 1: created their own playlists. I know there's data there. I
Speaker 1: don't I can't spit it out at the moment, but
Speaker 1: but I'm sure it's a combination of both. But I
Speaker 1: think a lot of it is you sharing your playlist
Speaker 1: with me and me going, oh, I like those. I
Speaker 1: didn't know those three records that Bob put on here,
Speaker 1: I like those or I hadn't thought of that from
Speaker 1: my list, and it fits into this playlist for my
Speaker 1: dinner party, or this play is from my drive, or
Speaker 1: this playlist for my workout. Okay, so that's almost impossible
Speaker 1: to penetrate, right, Well, yes and no. It goes back
Speaker 1: to knowing your consumer and knowing where to find them,
Speaker 1: and and having the experience and the ability to reach
Speaker 1: them and communicate them. To get them to listen English
Speaker 1: in English, you have to be a good marketer. So
Speaker 1: let's just be very narrow. If you want to reach
Speaker 1: them on Spotify and they're basically trading playlists as opposed
Speaker 1: to going through the genre playlists, you won't just reach
Speaker 1: them on Spotify. That's my point. You read them, You
Speaker 1: reach them through lifestyle, you reach them through social, you
Speaker 1: reach them through touring, You'll reach them through other you know,
Speaker 1: levers and odd platforms. So so nobody exists in a
Speaker 1: silo or not. And okay, but let's just go back
Speaker 1: to your Now you're you're pitching Spotify. Let's just say
Speaker 1: they put something on a playlist. You're obvious, they're obviously
Speaker 1: generating data which is useful to you, But how long
Speaker 1: will they stay committed? Before they not working for us.
Speaker 1: It varies from playlists to playlists. If we're just talking that,
Speaker 1: you know, you can have today's top hits. I believe
Speaker 1: the average time is eight to ten weeks. You know,
Speaker 1: you have other playlists like Pop Rising, which cycle through
Speaker 1: more quickly. You have Wrapped Caviare, You've got It's you know,
Speaker 1: It's lit. You know, they all have a different sort
Speaker 1: of um sort of mission in terms of what they're
Speaker 1: trying to accomplish. But they they're data driven. They'll look
Speaker 1: at some yes there's some curation evolved and the human
Speaker 1: beings involved, but they're also very data driven. So let's
Speaker 1: see there's burn. You know, they'll see there's the playlist,
Speaker 1: things dropping and as you'll see it drop down there.
Speaker 1: But I say, let's say you you're something you're excited
Speaker 1: about they put it on these playlists, and they come
Speaker 1: to you one day said, you know, we're not going
Speaker 1: to leave it on the playlist anymore, and you're still
Speaker 1: excited about it. How do you deal with that? Well,
Speaker 1: then you could go to a different playlists. Maybe you
Speaker 1: were wrong, maybe it isn't that audience. Maybe you thought
Speaker 1: it was Wrapped Caviare. But it's really something else or
Speaker 1: you know that sort of thing. And and so you
Speaker 1: might just pivot and go somewhere else, or uh, it's
Speaker 1: just not a very good record. So, uh, since you're
Speaker 1: in the belly of the beast, what is the most
Speaker 1: useful data that you've ever I'm done about specific kind
Speaker 1: of data that you've gotten from streaming services that is
Speaker 1: either very useful or surprising. Other than people listening primarily
Speaker 1: to their safe playlists. Yeah, there's a there's not I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a number where do I start? But but you know,
Speaker 1: collection people putting stuff on their plus skip rates are
Speaker 1: that what are they skipping? When they're skipping? Is skipping
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the song or right at the
Speaker 1: hook or a little bit later in the song? Um?
Speaker 1: What sort of click rates? You know? UM? What kind
Speaker 1: of likes people have? You have a sentiment you know, um,
Speaker 1: data about how people feel, you know, And so you
Speaker 1: try to sift through those words and and create because
Speaker 1: it's an emotional products, so you and and and that's
Speaker 1: particularly helpful on the first blush of something, whether you're
Speaker 1: just putting out something new from Dualipa or whether you're
Speaker 1: putting out something new from a fairly unknown act, but
Speaker 1: you find you have a very we have a sat
Speaker 1: cave Town. It's a sort of a of a pop
Speaker 1: alt kid from the UK and very very emo and
Speaker 1: very bedroom pop, but very connected. And he's just sold
Speaker 1: out venue here, the Fonda, you know, I mean, he's
Speaker 1: going doing very very well. And we don't we haven't
Speaker 1: had a new album out in a while. In fact,
Speaker 1: his previous one was Indie. So we have an album
Speaker 1: coming out and I think believe it's February. So he
Speaker 1: played there and and you know, you watch what's going
Speaker 1: on there and and and and so you know you're
Speaker 1: looking at the connectivity that that that that happens off
Speaker 1: of that emotion. You know, it's so emotional, that product.
Speaker 1: But you'll look at the sentiment meter around that and
Speaker 1: you'll say, okay, that's super passionate. That's like a lot
Speaker 1: of love there, you know, and significant streams in the
Speaker 1: twenty five million range, but not the million range. But
Speaker 1: we're betting long on Cave Town. We're betting long on
Speaker 1: Robin has the R. So we'll look at that or
Speaker 1: Hobo Johnson, you know, another act out of Sacramento. Frank
Speaker 1: his name is and he's he's got the same thing.
Speaker 1: You know, you'll you'll see the passion behind what's going
Speaker 1: on there and then and then you morphounted off the
Speaker 1: service and see that he's selling out theaters and doing
Speaker 1: eleven bucks ahead and merged. Okay, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: passion behind them. Have we hit radio yet with a
Speaker 1: song that's gone all the way? Not yet, but they're
Speaker 1: they're they're aware, they're paying attention. Okay, I saw you
Speaker 1: at the Rufous Do Soul uh show where they sold
Speaker 1: out the l A State Historical Park neighborhood of fifteen thousand. Uh.
Speaker 1: They have not have put out a record under your management?
Speaker 1: What's the plan for something like that? They have put
Speaker 1: out a record, they had what they had now they
Speaker 1: had last year and um and Solace is their first
Speaker 1: album with with the label. Came out more or less
Speaker 1: right when I arrived, like four or five months later. Um.
Speaker 1: But they're one of my favorite acts around period. I
Speaker 1: just think they're phenomenal and they're they're building themselves into
Speaker 1: a stadium act with their with their live show, and
Speaker 1: so you know, the plan for them is is to
Speaker 1: tournament one of the biggest acts in the world you know, uh,
Speaker 1: they made they made sort of a they made Solace
Speaker 1: was was a was sort of a very personal album.
Speaker 1: It was a little bit of a down mood. It
Speaker 1: streamed fairly well, it hasn't exploded. I don't believe we've
Speaker 1: really reached on on on the record label side of things,
Speaker 1: a new audience, um, but we really solidify the audience.
Speaker 1: But live, it's amazing what's going on. It was actually
Speaker 1: twenty one thousand people. It was their biggest show ever ever.
Speaker 1: And they're doing Ali Pally in the UK this week
Speaker 1: which is ten thousand plus. They just come off here
Speaker 1: of doing two Red Rocks at seven thousand plus, so
Speaker 1: they're massive in Australia where they're truly truly stars. Um there.
Speaker 1: The plan is for them to get in the studio
Speaker 1: and make a new record that maybe is a bit
Speaker 1: more commercially leaning, but you know they're going to make
Speaker 1: the music they want to make. Okay, So would you
Speaker 1: give them input? Say this is a hit not a
Speaker 1: hitter on want my hit? Yeah, we're we're what we
Speaker 1: always want to hit, right. I'm not when you say, hey,
Speaker 1: I don't hear it hit, but you know you hits
Speaker 1: hit Sir, you can't really just manufacture said there's a
Speaker 1: magic to it. You can there there are certain writers
Speaker 1: and producers that have formulas that they apply and and
Speaker 1: they work from time to time. But um, for an
Speaker 1: act that's that's self contained, like Rufus their proper old
Speaker 1: school band in that way, they they've been on album cycles,
Speaker 1: were just like, we we need more product from them
Speaker 1: to come out when they're doing a great job. It's
Speaker 1: early days still for us in that in that kind
Speaker 1: of arc of their career, but we need more product
Speaker 1: from them, more music, more connectivity, and they're doing a
Speaker 1: tremendous job touring. But then we need to keep that
Speaker 1: virtuous cycle going. And and but yeah, you know they'll
Speaker 1: they'll go into the studio and and maybe they're in
Speaker 1: a brighter mood than they were on Solace because usually
Speaker 1: hits are pretty happy, you know, even if their breakup hits,
Speaker 1: they have a brightness to them. Um, And we'll see
Speaker 1: what happens. But I'm not I don't want to put
Speaker 1: any undue pressure on them because I don't think that
Speaker 1: it's fair and I think that what's going to happen
Speaker 1: with them is the market is more likely to come
Speaker 1: around to them than them coming around to the market,
Speaker 1: and those are always the best. Longvity. Okay, to what
Speaker 1: degree we talked about socials, you ever have an actually
Speaker 1: don't want to make a deal. I mean everyone picking
Speaker 1: and choosing. But someone say, like the old days, hey
Speaker 1: I my credibility. I don't wanna tie up with any
Speaker 1: brands or anything. Yeah, sure, yeah, I mean I mean
Speaker 1: less and less it doesn't happen. It's more, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that sort of brand. I want to
Speaker 1: do the cool brand, whatever they whatever they think is
Speaker 1: appropriate for them. And we're fully supportive that. We never
Speaker 1: make anybody doing it. We can't make anybody doing Okay. Now,
Speaker 1: Scott Cohn is a friend of mine. He works in
Speaker 1: your company, I don't know, chief technical officer or something,
Speaker 1: and he was telling about this new data plan and
Speaker 1: Zach with Scooter was going on with me about that.
Speaker 1: Warner has a new way of looking at acts, a
Speaker 1: new way of collecting data such that you literally know
Speaker 1: who every fan is of an act and you will
Speaker 1: monetize that relationship. I'd like to see. It sounds great,
Speaker 1: not something you're employing. Well, I'm aware of of what
Speaker 1: you're talking about. It's in beta. It's in beta right
Speaker 1: now and I'm looking forward to and when we have
Speaker 1: there's there's there's an artist dashboard we have that we
Speaker 1: share with artists. That's new and it's really terrific if
Speaker 1: that's what he's talking about. And now he's talking about
Speaker 1: something you know different as I say, you know, he's
Speaker 1: a blue Sky guy anyway. So but we have the answers.
Speaker 1: So just before we wrap it up, anything you need
Speaker 1: to say that we haven't covered, because I tear about
Speaker 1: the gear here, I'm wonderful. Um, yeah, we've covered a lot.
Speaker 1: We've covered a lot, but I want to make sure
Speaker 1: you get your say of anything. And I'm very grateful
Speaker 1: for the time in the platform. Okay, but as I say,
Speaker 1: you know, you're sitting in a different perspective from me,
Speaker 1: so maybe there's something I don't see. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: think that, you know, from from where I sit, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people that a lot of people that
Speaker 1: have an agenda about undermining what labels do when major
Speaker 1: labels do, and and I think some of them can
Speaker 1: substantiate it to a point, but most of them can't.
Speaker 1: And that labels so but but not notwithstanding that, the
Speaker 1: criticisms constructively are taken constructively, and we have to morph,
Speaker 1: and we have to change our skill set and retrain
Speaker 1: our people and get new ideas and innovation, and people
Speaker 1: like Scott will help with that. And we we are
Speaker 1: working very hard at Warner and Warner Music Group of
Speaker 1: you know, creating a different sort of channels so that
Speaker 1: that dashboard or that information you know, does come to
Speaker 1: light and is shareable with our acts so that we
Speaker 1: provide a real added value down the line. And I
Speaker 1: think what we provide now is more than adequate, but
Speaker 1: we we need to get better. We need to get
Speaker 1: more integrated with the agenda, not just of the artists,
Speaker 1: but with our partners and what we're doing, and more
Speaker 1: aligned so that so that our place at the table
Speaker 1: is solid. It's explainable, it's transparent, it's understandable, and more
Speaker 1: than anything, it's we can implement it. You know that
Speaker 1: we gets a couple of questions. You now, the unlike
Speaker 1: in the physical days, these streaming companies pay more frequently.
Speaker 1: So if I'm an act, let's just as sue, for
Speaker 1: the sake of discussion, I'm in the black, how often
Speaker 1: would I get paid the same six month period or
Speaker 1: would be moment, it's it's it's six months. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so let's just go one step further. You talk about
Speaker 1: the major label. I am old enough to remember the
Speaker 1: days where if you weren't on the major label, you
Speaker 1: essentially weren't a player. First, you probably couldn't afford to record,
Speaker 1: but you couldn't get on the radio. And if you've
Speaker 1: got me in the famous stories Bobby Womack and Beverly
Speaker 1: Glenn Records, he had a platinum out and put the
Speaker 1: company out of business because they literally couldn't collect the money.
Speaker 1: So we know there's more music being made than ever before. Okay,
Speaker 1: granted most of it is literally not listened to. If
Speaker 1: you go on Spotify, there are millions of tracks that
Speaker 1: have never been listened to. So this vastness where the
Speaker 1: major labels there used to be six controlled everything. What
Speaker 1: do we say to the There are certain genres, like
Speaker 1: we talked about plesbur that traditionally the major labels are
Speaker 1: not looking for, But there was a time they put
Speaker 1: out everything. They were the only avenue. Is there a
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about all all these other scenes
Speaker 1: that the major labels are presently not in um They
Speaker 1: have they have relevance and vibrancy, and there's and now
Speaker 1: there's very little friction once you're a subscriber to Discovery
Speaker 1: and Too and to Access and they have to battle
Speaker 1: their way to whatever relevancy they do because they fight
Speaker 1: at a different weight class. But everybody there's a champion
Speaker 1: of every weight class. You know, it just depends on
Speaker 1: which weight class you're in. Okay, so you would anticipate
Speaker 1: the main We have none such by the way. Okay.
Speaker 1: So it's an affiliated label to Warn't Warner Records, and
Speaker 1: they have wonderful acts. You know that Vagabond is just
Speaker 1: as a record that came out this week. I urge
Speaker 1: everybody to listen to it. She's terrific. You know. You
Speaker 1: have Yola, you know, which was produced by one of
Speaker 1: the Black Keys. She's terrific. You know. At the same time,
Speaker 1: you have David Byrne on the label, you know who
Speaker 1: we don't have to explain David Byrne, Dewey, he's a
Speaker 1: wonderful you know, all timers. Let's just stay with none
Speaker 1: such So none such reports to you, yeah, okay, So
Speaker 1: certainly if most revenue is from streaming these days, we
Speaker 1: know those records tend to have presently very little streams.
Speaker 1: It's challenging, I would think would be very challenging to
Speaker 1: make money on those records. So look, if you're looking
Speaker 1: at traditionally what none such did, Yes, they're in they're
Speaker 1: in a in a position where they're more fitting and
Speaker 1: pivoting into the streaming area. So that's and at the
Speaker 1: top of the agenda for the management they're having. Said that,
Speaker 1: though we touched on Suburban, who I think five years
Speaker 1: ago would have been just a rock act, you know
Speaker 1: that was put into a certain basket. But because of
Speaker 1: what he's brought to the market, there's now a streaming
Speaker 1: story behind Suburban, and now radio is going to follow
Speaker 1: that or the traditional sort of outlets to go if
Speaker 1: none such none such hat. That's why I mentioned Yolo
Speaker 1: because I think where I mentioned Vagabond, none such as
Speaker 1: morphing into that area. And that's down to A and
Speaker 1: R and marketing and understanding that that whilst some of
Speaker 1: their artists may struggle to stream, there's a new generation
Speaker 1: of artists that might not be that different from what
Speaker 1: those artists are, but they're of a certain generation. They
Speaker 1: might be digital natives who know how to communicate differently
Speaker 1: or more efficiently, and their marketing and their promotion has
Speaker 1: to be on point with how the market moves today,
Speaker 1: and certainly all the genres you know, the audiences will
Speaker 1: ultimately move to streaming. Hip hop was there first, but
Speaker 1: you know countries, you know better streaming than average country
Speaker 1: is better than rock. Okay, you've been listening to a
Speaker 1: comprehensive viewpoint of what is going on in with the
Speaker 1: big cahuna the major label world. Someone who's literally worked
Speaker 1: at all major labeled groups by today's standards. And Tom,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here, Bob. It's been my pleasure.
Speaker 1: So once again, that's Tom Courson, co Chairman, CEO O
Speaker 1: of Warner Music. Until next time. This is Bob website