WEBVTT - Getting It Right This Time 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.439 I Do, Part two is a unique podcast that is 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.040 all about divorce and heartbreak and the idea that you 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:28.040 can find love again. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny Garth, 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.360 and I know that the path to love isn't always 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.600 an easy road to travel, a theme that has come 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:39.360 up on this podcast a lot has been about self 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.280 reflection and growth that goes hand in hand with divorce. 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:46.599 All of a sudden, you're forced to take a hard 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.000 look at things, and sometimes the best way to make 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:56.360 sense of it all is through therapy. Therapy, therapy. I 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.680 want to bring on today doctor Hillary Goldsher, an incredible 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.840 psychologist who does in depth work in the arena of relationships, 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.400 to have an honest conversation about all the things divorced 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.759 people should know or be asking themselves when getting back 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.520 out there in the dating scene. So with that, Hello 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:22.200 doctor Hillary, Hi Jenny, so nice to meet you. Thank 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.800 you for coming on our podcast. My Please, we need you. 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:32.120 We all need you. As you already probably know, this 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.880 podcast is all about people that haven't gotten it right 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.360 in love before they're divorced. Maybe they're a single parent, 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.600 but they haven't given up on the idea of finding 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.840 their person. So I wanted to chat about all the 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:51.720 things or questions that divorced people that are ready to 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.360 date again should be thinking about or asking themselves. 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:56.240 Love it sound good, I don't. 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.120 Let's go. Let's do this. How do we heal from 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:06.520 the pain of a divorce? Big question? I'm starting out swinging. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.119 Yeah, just a one sentence answer. No, I'm glad you're 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.280 asking that so distinctly because it gives me a chance 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.639 to say the following, which is that in my work, 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:24.200 I like to conceptualize divorce as a trauma. And this 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.120 is relevant regardless of the divorce. If the divorce is 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:32.960 amicable and mutual, or the divorce is high conflict and 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.480 one person doesn't want it right, the shift in paradigm 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:43.960 and the resultant change in orientation and related stability and 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.920 sort of spirit and soul is typically pretty shocking to 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:54.800 both parties thereafter, particularly women, And that I guess is 0:02:55.520 --> 0:03:00.720 gender stereotypical, but it is often true in my experience, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.120 and so having an opportunity to think of it like 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.720 that gives women going through it an opportunity to heal 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:15.000 any very intentional, prolonged way. And yes, when you think about, like, well, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:20.240 how do you heal, you begin by realizing that your heart, body, mind, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.960 and soul are going through something traumatic and profound. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.280 I love that. I love that because it gives people 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.440 the opportunity to say, Wow, this is I'm in trauma, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.480 like you said, and I need to be kind to 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.320 myself in this process, take care of myself. 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:44.040 Yes, I like to call the season post divorce the 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:50.160 quote after marriage, because there's an entire relationship with the 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.960 season of post marriage, who you are, who you want 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:59.640 to be, how you feel separate, and disentangling finances and 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:04.480 kids stuff if they're involved. It's an entirely other relationship 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.480 that you in some cases get to co create with 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.880 your ex and in some cases have to create on 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:14.040 your own if there isn't an amicable relationship. So it 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.240 gives an opportunity to think about what do I need 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.040 to soothe myself? What resources do I need to mobilize 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.080 to help myself through. What are the different phases that 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.160 I'm going through, and what do I need in each 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.640 one of them to sort of help myself develop into 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.360 the person I want to be in this new season 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:31.840 of my life. 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:34.560 Oh, that's going to be exciting. We're going to get 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.440 into that but I want to talk about accountability. I 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:42.000 think that how do we take our own accountability for 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.320 the things that happen in the marriage and not just 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.159 point the finger, not just blame the other party. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:55.440 So slowing that process down is painful but critical. There 0:04:55.520 --> 0:05:01.960 is absolutely room to identify the pain points, the frustrations, 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.520 the hurts, the betrayals, the infidelities, whatever occurred. Talk about 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.200 them and hold them up and feel them in a 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.200 safe environment with friends, a therapist, family, et cetera. It's 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:18.560 not only important but mandatory necessary. It is okay for 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.360 a part of the process to be anger. That's how 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.840 we move through it. We don't we don't dismiss it, 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.159 we don't suppress it, we don't paint it with like 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.240 a pretty color. We like dance with it. We hold it. 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.120 We decide what it's done to us and what we 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.240 want it to do to us moving forward. So I 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.159 could talk a lot more about that, but I want 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.760 to really be specific about reserving a space for all 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.520 of those feelings and being really deliberate about it. It's 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.640 a critical part of healing. Having said that, it is 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.120 also really important to say what about me? What about me? 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.520 Because two things can be true. At the same time, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:03.000 you could have been betrayed and let down and hurt, 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.640 mistreat disrespected. All of those things can be true and devastating, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.080 But there's some way in which we co created, even 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.160 if the quote only way we co created is that 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.920 we allowed it to happen for too long. We didn't advocate, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.640 we didn't say no more, we didn't say you're not listening. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.680 I'm staying in it until you do right and so 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.000 being able to recognize what our part is in co 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:34.000 creating this sustained dynamic is critical for healing and not 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:39.840 repeating it in future relationships. So it's an interesting dichotomy 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.560 because if you were mistreated, disrespected, cheated, on et cetera, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.680 the understandable premise might be this is on him. I 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.440 don't need to look at this. I'm just the victim. 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.920 And in many ways that's a portion of that is true. 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.080 But what I just said is critical, or the healing 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.800 is not robust and not and doesn't have long jeopardy. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.400 We need to figure out what we co created, what 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.799 we in, what our input was to make this dynamic 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:07.599 occur over and over and over again. 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.400 Yes, I always say stop pointing the finger and start 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:17.040 pulling the thumb. Yeah, so it works for me exactly. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.840 It's really important to allow for both that there's something 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:27.840 really use that word again, robust and fulfilling about both, 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.280 allowing space for both. We get to be mad and frustrated, 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.600 angry and hurt, and we get to say it to 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.720 save for others. But we have to also figure out 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.840 how do we contribute. We have to or our healing 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:41.800 is not going to be complete and some version of 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.679 the pattern is going to repeat again. Whether it's enough 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.840 romantic relationship, a friendship, a professional environment with your kiddos, 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.560 it will reveal itself again until we tangle with it. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.480 How do we know when it's time to date again? 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.600 I mean, should people try dating even if they don't 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.040 feel ready. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:10.720 Yeah, glad you're asking that, because this is a topic 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.360 where I feel like it's so important for people to 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.280 practice relying on their own intuition. Because there's so many 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.480 cliches about this question. Well, you should lead a certain 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.040 amount of time, or you're not healed, or you should 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:24.960 get out there. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:26.800 Or you got to get back out there, get on 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:27.880 the horse, yeah. 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.640 Right, or you're not really prioritizing yourself or taking care 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.760 of yourself. Neither of those things are absolute truth. There 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.240 is no I'm a clinician, I'm a doctor. This is 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.520 what I do. There is no here's the answer. The 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.360 answer is within you and your first guess at it 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.160 may be wrong. Right. You might decide I'm ready. It's 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.360 important that I get out there. It's important that I 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.760 start this. And you try it and it doesn't feel right. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:57.280 It doesn't feel fulfilling. It feels stressful or anxiety provoking, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.440 or in some way uncomfortable, and so we check it 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.560 again with our intuition to go. That wasn't a match. 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.920 We pause, We surround ourselves with comforts and safe people 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.840 and known quantities, and we try it right. And if 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.120 the sort of edict that like right, If you go 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.240 out there too quickly, you aren't dealing with your pain 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.320 and your trauma, and you're covering up your feelings with 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:26.679 other people and the dynamics that that can create. Something 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.720 to bunch out for. That can be true, But allow 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:34.880 yourself to discover that it's really important post divorce to 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.600 start carving your own path. And carving your own path 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.200 doesn't mean just an upward trajectory where everything just keeps 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.520 getting better. And better and better and more successful in 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.480 me building a tolerance for carving your own path and stumbling, Oh, 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.079 that didn't work, that didn't feel good. Actually didn't make 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.400 me feel more expansive and more grounded. It made me 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.880 feel more destabilized and disoriented. Good. Good that you're able 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.040 to realize that insight and go back and by again. 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.679 So my answer is look within and take take your 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.280 best guess, and honor yourself as you do that. And 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.480 if it isn't a match, if it isn't resonant, honor 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.080 your ability to go back and shift it. It's so 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.480 much of what we don't do in a marriage that 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.880 doesn't work. Look at your intuition, honor it, change we get. 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.360 Peah, I was going to say, it's after that kind 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.920 of trauma and you're in the grieving process, it's so 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:37.680 hard to rely or trust your own instincts when they 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.680 come up, you know. So you're saying it's a good 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.720 idea to really listen deeply to your own instincts. 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.800 Yes, and to your point, which is so critical when 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.319 you're destabilized, which is going to occur post trauma or 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.320 during trauma. Right, there's something my world we call like 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.760 trauma brain, which is exactly what it sounds like, like, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.720 can't think the way I usually do, can't remember what 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.760 my errand was, can't remember my kid had soccer tomorrow? Right, 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.880 you just think and focus and orientation is off, either 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.000 intermittently or like on the regular, And so to your point, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:16.360 it will probably be difficult to access intuition, and so 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.120 not stopping there, but saying, like, right, my road to 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.920 my intuition is a little rocky right now. It's a 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.120 little stumbly, it's a little unclear. That's okay. I'm like gonna, 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:29.080 you know, sort of hike through it and make my 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.640 best guess and adjust as I recognize it either fits 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:37.440 or doesn't, because the extreme of that is to either 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.920 stay completely paralyzed and do nothing, or to not think 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.160 at all, not reflect internally at all and just sort 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.520 of act impulsively and sitting with that messy middle of like, well, sure, 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.120 but this is my best guess about what feels right 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.200 to me, and I'm here for myself if I find 0:11:55.240 --> 0:12:16.080 out that's not true. 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.920 Okay, Can I just say I really wish I had 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.160 you about ten years ago, because well, we're just talking 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.960 about it now and it's taking me back to that trauma, 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.280 and I feel in my body like that, I feel 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.040 tense and a little tingly, And it was just you're so, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.880 it's so true what you're saying. And I never gave 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.200 it any of these thoughts when I was going through it. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.439 I was doing all the things I probably shouldn't have, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:36.240 been impulsive and distracting myself and blaming all the things. 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.360 Yes, you're giving me the chills when you're talking about it, 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.680 because I have such a passion for women going through 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.920 divorce and the lack of this kind of conceptionalism and 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.920 that I think would be so useful and grounding. And 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.040 even what you're saying that you did ten years ago, 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.680 none of that is quote wrong. It's just your perception 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.640 and conceptualization of it at the time probably felt really 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:05.120 internally disorienting and the opposite of grounding, right that had 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:10.079 you had the language and the sort of conceptualization that like, oh, yeah, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.800 this is okay, this is part of trauma. This is 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.080 my trauma brain. I'm noticing it. I'm dealing with it. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.080 As I said before, I'm dancing with it. I'm pausing, 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.920 I'm reflecting on my intuition. I'm stopping. I'm turning around 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.200 and making a different choice. It's not that had you 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.040 had this information, you wouldn't have done all those things. 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.520 That's trauma. We're not avoiding the hard parts. We're not 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.680 avoiding the blaming, the distracting, the depression, the making of 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.320 the wrong choices, the like disobeying our intuition. We're still 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.360 going to do it. This is trauma. This is trauma. 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.600 So trauma's messy, But you had language to go Wait 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.839 a minute, let me pause, let me slow this down, 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.640 let me be more intentional, let me rescue myself from 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.319 this mission. It's not working for me right, and so 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.839 I just want to hold that space for women out 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.720 there going through it that having this conceptualization doesn't take 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.040 away the pain and the journey and the tendency to 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.400 do all the things you're talking about. It just gives 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.800 a language to talk about it to ourselves so we 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.000 aren't shamed, and to rescue ourselves when we notice we're 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:15.240 going in a place we don't belong. 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:21.840 So good. What if the idea of dating repulses me, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.560 I mean you, I remember thinking I would rather lick 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.160 the bottom of my shoe than go on a date. No, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:30.520 I'm not going to do that. 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.240 Yeah. Yeah. My answer to that is, well, before I 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:41.000 say this, people around you will encourage you to adjust 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.640 your perspective in that regard and hold tight to what 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:51.160 feels her current experience. If it feels repulsive, let it 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:52.720 feel that way. And what it was going to say 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:56.960 with that context is get curious. That's so interesting, that's 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.720 so interesting. Tell me much more, although you're talking to yourself, 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.040 tell me much more, like why? What? What about it? 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.280 Like all the dirty details of what you're thinking? What 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.080 makes it feel so awful and so intolerable and so 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:16.440 completely unsustainable? Get really curious. Don't shame it, don't try 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.600 to shift it, don't try to change it, don't try 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.600 to modify it. And I would offer conceptualize it as 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.200 a season rather than a lifelong conception. Right. If it 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.480 turns into a lifelong conception, I don't know. We'll think 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.640 about it then. Right, But it makes a lot of 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:36.760 sense that post divorce and in trauma, particularly if you 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:41.120 were blamed and shamed and disrespected and there was infidelity 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.280 betray all of that, and even if you weren't that 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.360 the idea of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation again, 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.760 and trusting yourself to show up in a way that 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.680 is steeped in self care is scary, and so having 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.840 a lot of grace and compassion for yourself and allowing 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.400 that to be so. So, my goal for a person 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.520 sitting in front of me who had that going on 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.960 wouldn't be to change their mind, but would be to 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.520 get really to build a relationship with that truth, right, 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.440 to get to know it and follow it. Does it shift, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.280 does it change, does it dissipate? Does it deepen? How interesting? Right? 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.480 And then if it becomes something that is completely unshakable 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.800 in over a long period of time, maybe we go deeper, 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.120 you know, we start thinking about does this bump up 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:31.880 against other experiences in your life, childhood dynamics, abandonment, being devalued, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:37.760 not seen, betrayed as a child, or in other relationships, 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:39.960 and do we need to look at that intersection and 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:44.720 start to work to reduce the hold that you know, 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.360 my goal as a clinician is to help people access 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.960 connection and love and community, assuming that's one's goal, and 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.720 it is most people's goal. And so if it comes 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.920 to a point where someone is really keeping themselves from 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.480 those things, then we look at that, but that initial 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.640 feeling should be paradoxically completely honored. 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.680 Yeah, I think you're saying, get curious, ask yourself questions 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:15.920 about things. I think For me personally, after it happened, 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.320 I didn't want to talk to myself. I didn't want 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.880 to ask myself questions. I don't want to trust myself 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.280 because I was I felt damaged and hurt and like 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:26.720 I couldn't trust myself. 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.680 Yes, yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that, because 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.200 I think that feeling stated ubiquitous for divorced women. That's 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:36.840 sort of like, I don't want to get close to it. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.320 I don't want to feel it. I don't want to 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:39.920 feel the hurt, and I don't want to feel the 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.919 self blame or shame that we cultivate around what we 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.600 did to contribute and where we are and society's reflection 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.760 about where we are now all of that. And again, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.840 I wouldn't try to suggest that we can make that 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.960 feeling go away, but rather, and this is the hardest part, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:00.800 but rather just get a lit a little bit closer 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.359 to it, a little bit closer to it. What is that? 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:05.879 Why am I so afraid to go to the feelings 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.119 what's the worst that's going to happen. What do I 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.639 think is going to occur? You know if I just 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.520 take one step closer to it. And what I'm about 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.920 to say is super practical, but I think useful, which 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.879 is that when we are in avoidance mode of feelings, 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.439 setting aside five minutes to sit with the feeling. Literally, 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:25.639 I mean taking out your phone and setting five minutes 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.280 and whatever feels right to you, whether it's journaling or 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.359 talking with a friend or just thinking about something that 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.080 feels tricky, and then just being done with it, gently 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.600 urging the feelings back. It's going to be there when 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.840 I'm ready again, and just for the purpose, even if 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.000 it doesn't change much of our feeling state, for the 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:49.080 purpose of interrupting our neural pathways that are well traveled. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.760 We get the feeling and our immediate response is to 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.399 not go to it. Denial, suppression, avoidance. That's a neural 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.120 pathway we travel over and over and over and over again. 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.000 We want to interrupt that so we have more choices 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.680 for other things over time, and even if we interrupt 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.080 it with like five minutes of like gentle thinking about it, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.320 we start to change our brain chemistry around it. 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:16.040 Okay, say it's time to date, we've gotten to that point. 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.840 What do we need to do emotionally, physically, mentally so 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:22.520 that we don't make the same mistakes? 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:23.560 You know? 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.280 Yeah, if we were married to someone who wasn't right 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.440 for us, how do we know how to not do 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:32.119 that again? 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:36.640 Yes, so my answer is going to be a little tricky, 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:42.639 but based in reality and anecdotal experience and clinical experience. 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:47.880 I suppose that is not totally the question, because that 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.320 question is a pretty big setup for failure at the 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.359 smallest event, Right, how do I not do this again? 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:02.359 And then we're at dinner and you say something to 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.600 impress someone rather than being more authentic. Now all of 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:10.040 a sudden, you're doing it again, and you failed failed, Right, 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.640 And you go out with someone and you over text 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.760 them and are needy or clinging in your estimation. You 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.399 failed again. And so the question is not how do 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.440 I not do the same thing? The question is how 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.960 do I get How do I stay close to my 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:30.520 process so I continue continuously evaluate how it feels to 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.600 me and how it's going, and where my blind spots 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.320 are and where my vulnerabilities are, and where some of 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.560 my less adaptive behaviors show up and I can step 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.119 in and interrupt them or correct them, or repair and 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.399 go back and try again. Right. So the idea that 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.280 we can just and I know you were saying exactly this, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.080 but the idea that we can just flip from like 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.919 doing it wrong to doing it right is way too tricky. 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:55.720 We're flawed humans. 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.240 And yeah, that's kind of unrealistic. 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.119 Yes, And even the best relationships we have, stuff we 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:01.879 show up in ways we don't feel good about and like, 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:03.520 oh I did it again, I did that thing where 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:04.640 I snap at my partner. 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.080 I suck, Yeah, I suck, right, what's wrong with me? 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.879 So the question is just how can I track myself? 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.760 How can I hold myself accountable in a gentle, loving way. 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.200 When I say accountable, I don't mean like not having 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.280 a misstep, I mean like my I feeling about going 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.159 out tonight. How do I feel when I'm with this person? 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.400 How does he make me feel? How do I feel 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.960 when I'm sitting with him? Do I feel like interested 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:31.280 and compelled? Do I feel bored? Do I feel a 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.960 sense of like I don't know, like rowdedness, safety orientation, 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.159 or does it seem like I'm not being listened to, 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.479 or like just getting curious about how you feel in 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:46.719 scenarios with dates and men, right, and getting curious about 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.680 how you show up. Wow, I like really talked a lot, 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.320 or I didn't talk at all, or like, gosh, I 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:54.720 was so triggered once we said good night, all I 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.080 could think about was in texting or calling, right, just 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:00.600 noticing the stuff that comes up. I think the edict 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:05.200 people put on themselves is trying to avoid having any 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.240 of these things happen, and when they do, feeling guilt 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:12.359 and shame, embarrassment, judgment, self criticism as opposed to like, 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.639 oh so interesting, what's that about? And how do I 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:18.760 feel about it? And that doesn't feel good to me. 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.600 It doesn't feel good to me that I'm overvaluating if 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.040 this person is going to contact me again? For example? Right, 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.639 what's that about? What is it connected to? How do 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:30.400 I feel my body when I think about it? Are 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.280 there resources tools I can put in place to help 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:37.280 manage those tricky feelings when they come up? Be a 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.439 friends via self soothing, meditation, therapy. Right? What can I 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.280 do when I notice something is not serving me well? 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:50.480 And so that is how we mobilize a path that 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.159 is different is staying present and in it and close 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:59.720 to our feelings rather than some macro sort of edict 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:01.639 that we have to show up a certain or a 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:12.480 different way. 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.240 When is it the right time to start talking to 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:21.840 the new person about our ex or the bloody massacre 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.480 that was the relationship, or what happened in our relationship, 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.439 or even if we have kids, Like that's the second 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:30.840 I would think, the second thing you would talk to 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.720 them about, Like, you know, what's the timeline for those 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:35.880 kinds of things like how when do I talk about 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:37.560 my ex? When do I talk about my kids that 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:37.960 I have? 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:44.200 Yeah, that's a good one, and I'll probably be a 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.520 little more prescriptive about this. Look, I mean, before I 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:52.560 say what I'm going to say again, intuition, if you 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.600 know it feels right and there's a sharing and well 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:01.720 maybe maybe it happens and it's a respontanious way, trust 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.240 yourself if that feels right, and if you end up 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:06.560 regretting it. That's an example of what we were just 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:10.439 talking about. There's no like this is the answer. Having 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:14.760 said that, I think in this arena it's almost like 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.639