Speaker 1: I Do, Part two is a unique podcast that is
Speaker 1: all about divorce and heartbreak and the idea that you
Speaker 1: can find love again. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny Garth,
Speaker 1: and I know that the path to love isn't always
Speaker 1: an easy road to travel, a theme that has come
Speaker 1: up on this podcast a lot has been about self
Speaker 1: reflection and growth that goes hand in hand with divorce.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you're forced to take a hard
Speaker 1: look at things, and sometimes the best way to make
Speaker 1: sense of it all is through therapy. Therapy, therapy. I
Speaker 1: want to bring on today doctor Hillary Goldsher, an incredible
Speaker 1: psychologist who does in depth work in the arena of relationships,
Speaker 1: to have an honest conversation about all the things divorced
Speaker 1: people should know or be asking themselves when getting back
Speaker 1: out there in the dating scene. So with that, Hello
Speaker 1: doctor Hillary, Hi Jenny, so nice to meet you. Thank
Speaker 1: you for coming on our podcast. My Please, we need you.
Speaker 1: We all need you. As you already probably know, this
Speaker 1: podcast is all about people that haven't gotten it right
Speaker 1: in love before they're divorced. Maybe they're a single parent,
Speaker 1: but they haven't given up on the idea of finding
Speaker 1: their person. So I wanted to chat about all the
Speaker 1: things or questions that divorced people that are ready to
Speaker 1: date again should be thinking about or asking themselves.
Speaker 2: Love it sound good, I don't.
Speaker 1: Let's go. Let's do this. How do we heal from
Speaker 1: the pain of a divorce? Big question? I'm starting out swinging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a one sentence answer. No, I'm glad you're
Speaker 2: asking that so distinctly because it gives me a chance
Speaker 2: to say the following, which is that in my work,
Speaker 2: I like to conceptualize divorce as a trauma. And this
Speaker 2: is relevant regardless of the divorce. If the divorce is
Speaker 2: amicable and mutual, or the divorce is high conflict and
Speaker 2: one person doesn't want it right, the shift in paradigm
Speaker 2: and the resultant change in orientation and related stability and
Speaker 2: sort of spirit and soul is typically pretty shocking to
Speaker 2: both parties thereafter, particularly women, And that I guess is
Speaker 2: gender stereotypical, but it is often true in my experience,
Speaker 2: and so having an opportunity to think of it like
Speaker 2: that gives women going through it an opportunity to heal
Speaker 2: any very intentional, prolonged way. And yes, when you think about, like, well,
Speaker 2: how do you heal, you begin by realizing that your heart, body, mind,
Speaker 2: and soul are going through something traumatic and profound.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that because it gives people
Speaker 1: the opportunity to say, Wow, this is I'm in trauma,
Speaker 1: like you said, and I need to be kind to
Speaker 1: myself in this process, take care of myself.
Speaker 2: Yes, I like to call the season post divorce the
Speaker 2: quote after marriage, because there's an entire relationship with the
Speaker 2: season of post marriage, who you are, who you want
Speaker 2: to be, how you feel separate, and disentangling finances and
Speaker 2: kids stuff if they're involved. It's an entirely other relationship
Speaker 2: that you in some cases get to co create with
Speaker 2: your ex and in some cases have to create on
Speaker 2: your own if there isn't an amicable relationship. So it
Speaker 2: gives an opportunity to think about what do I need
Speaker 2: to soothe myself? What resources do I need to mobilize
Speaker 2: to help myself through. What are the different phases that
Speaker 2: I'm going through, and what do I need in each
Speaker 2: one of them to sort of help myself develop into
Speaker 2: the person I want to be in this new season
Speaker 2: of my life.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's going to be exciting. We're going to get
Speaker 1: into that but I want to talk about accountability. I
Speaker 1: think that how do we take our own accountability for
Speaker 1: the things that happen in the marriage and not just
Speaker 1: point the finger, not just blame the other party.
Speaker 2: So slowing that process down is painful but critical. There
Speaker 2: is absolutely room to identify the pain points, the frustrations,
Speaker 2: the hurts, the betrayals, the infidelities, whatever occurred. Talk about
Speaker 2: them and hold them up and feel them in a
Speaker 2: safe environment with friends, a therapist, family, et cetera. It's
Speaker 2: not only important but mandatory necessary. It is okay for
Speaker 2: a part of the process to be anger. That's how
Speaker 2: we move through it. We don't we don't dismiss it,
Speaker 2: we don't suppress it, we don't paint it with like
Speaker 2: a pretty color. We like dance with it. We hold it.
Speaker 2: We decide what it's done to us and what we
Speaker 2: want it to do to us moving forward. So I
Speaker 2: could talk a lot more about that, but I want
Speaker 2: to really be specific about reserving a space for all
Speaker 2: of those feelings and being really deliberate about it. It's
Speaker 2: a critical part of healing. Having said that, it is
Speaker 2: also really important to say what about me? What about me?
Speaker 2: Because two things can be true. At the same time,
Speaker 2: you could have been betrayed and let down and hurt,
Speaker 2: mistreat disrespected. All of those things can be true and devastating,
Speaker 2: But there's some way in which we co created, even
Speaker 2: if the quote only way we co created is that
Speaker 2: we allowed it to happen for too long. We didn't advocate,
Speaker 2: we didn't say no more, we didn't say you're not listening.
Speaker 2: I'm staying in it until you do right and so
Speaker 2: being able to recognize what our part is in co
Speaker 2: creating this sustained dynamic is critical for healing and not
Speaker 2: repeating it in future relationships. So it's an interesting dichotomy
Speaker 2: because if you were mistreated, disrespected, cheated, on et cetera,
Speaker 2: the understandable premise might be this is on him. I
Speaker 2: don't need to look at this. I'm just the victim.
Speaker 2: And in many ways that's a portion of that is true.
Speaker 2: But what I just said is critical, or the healing
Speaker 2: is not robust and not and doesn't have long jeopardy.
Speaker 2: We need to figure out what we co created, what
Speaker 2: we in, what our input was to make this dynamic
Speaker 2: occur over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: Yes, I always say stop pointing the finger and start
Speaker 1: pulling the thumb. Yeah, so it works for me exactly.
Speaker 2: It's really important to allow for both that there's something
Speaker 2: really use that word again, robust and fulfilling about both,
Speaker 2: allowing space for both. We get to be mad and frustrated,
Speaker 2: angry and hurt, and we get to say it to
Speaker 2: save for others. But we have to also figure out
Speaker 2: how do we contribute. We have to or our healing
Speaker 2: is not going to be complete and some version of
Speaker 2: the pattern is going to repeat again. Whether it's enough
Speaker 2: romantic relationship, a friendship, a professional environment with your kiddos,
Speaker 2: it will reveal itself again until we tangle with it.
Speaker 1: How do we know when it's time to date again?
Speaker 1: I mean, should people try dating even if they don't
Speaker 1: feel ready.
Speaker 2: Yeah, glad you're asking that, because this is a topic
Speaker 2: where I feel like it's so important for people to
Speaker 2: practice relying on their own intuition. Because there's so many
Speaker 2: cliches about this question. Well, you should lead a certain
Speaker 2: amount of time, or you're not healed, or you should
Speaker 2: get out there.
Speaker 1: Or you got to get back out there, get on
Speaker 1: the horse, yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, or you're not really prioritizing yourself or taking care
Speaker 2: of yourself. Neither of those things are absolute truth. There
Speaker 2: is no I'm a clinician, I'm a doctor. This is
Speaker 2: what I do. There is no here's the answer. The
Speaker 2: answer is within you and your first guess at it
Speaker 2: may be wrong. Right. You might decide I'm ready. It's
Speaker 2: important that I get out there. It's important that I
Speaker 2: start this. And you try it and it doesn't feel right.
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel fulfilling. It feels stressful or anxiety provoking,
Speaker 2: or in some way uncomfortable, and so we check it
Speaker 2: again with our intuition to go. That wasn't a match.
Speaker 2: We pause, We surround ourselves with comforts and safe people
Speaker 2: and known quantities, and we try it right. And if
Speaker 2: the sort of edict that like right, If you go
Speaker 2: out there too quickly, you aren't dealing with your pain
Speaker 2: and your trauma, and you're covering up your feelings with
Speaker 2: other people and the dynamics that that can create. Something
Speaker 2: to bunch out for. That can be true, But allow
Speaker 2: yourself to discover that it's really important post divorce to
Speaker 2: start carving your own path. And carving your own path
Speaker 2: doesn't mean just an upward trajectory where everything just keeps
Speaker 2: getting better. And better and better and more successful in
Speaker 2: me building a tolerance for carving your own path and stumbling, Oh,
Speaker 2: that didn't work, that didn't feel good. Actually didn't make
Speaker 2: me feel more expansive and more grounded. It made me
Speaker 2: feel more destabilized and disoriented. Good. Good that you're able
Speaker 2: to realize that insight and go back and by again.
Speaker 2: So my answer is look within and take take your
Speaker 2: best guess, and honor yourself as you do that. And
Speaker 2: if it isn't a match, if it isn't resonant, honor
Speaker 2: your ability to go back and shift it. It's so
Speaker 2: much of what we don't do in a marriage that
Speaker 2: doesn't work. Look at your intuition, honor it, change we get.
Speaker 1: Peah, I was going to say, it's after that kind
Speaker 1: of trauma and you're in the grieving process, it's so
Speaker 1: hard to rely or trust your own instincts when they
Speaker 1: come up, you know. So you're saying it's a good
Speaker 1: idea to really listen deeply to your own instincts.
Speaker 2: Yes, and to your point, which is so critical when
Speaker 2: you're destabilized, which is going to occur post trauma or
Speaker 2: during trauma. Right, there's something my world we call like
Speaker 2: trauma brain, which is exactly what it sounds like, like,
Speaker 2: can't think the way I usually do, can't remember what
Speaker 2: my errand was, can't remember my kid had soccer tomorrow? Right,
Speaker 2: you just think and focus and orientation is off, either
Speaker 2: intermittently or like on the regular, And so to your point,
Speaker 2: it will probably be difficult to access intuition, and so
Speaker 2: not stopping there, but saying, like, right, my road to
Speaker 2: my intuition is a little rocky right now. It's a
Speaker 2: little stumbly, it's a little unclear. That's okay. I'm like gonna,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of hike through it and make my
Speaker 2: best guess and adjust as I recognize it either fits
Speaker 2: or doesn't, because the extreme of that is to either
Speaker 2: stay completely paralyzed and do nothing, or to not think
Speaker 2: at all, not reflect internally at all and just sort
Speaker 2: of act impulsively and sitting with that messy middle of like, well, sure,
Speaker 2: but this is my best guess about what feels right
Speaker 2: to me, and I'm here for myself if I find
Speaker 2: out that's not true.
Speaker 1: Okay, Can I just say I really wish I had
Speaker 1: you about ten years ago, because well, we're just talking
Speaker 1: about it now and it's taking me back to that trauma,
Speaker 1: and I feel in my body like that, I feel
Speaker 1: tense and a little tingly, And it was just you're so,
Speaker 1: it's so true what you're saying. And I never gave
Speaker 1: it any of these thoughts when I was going through it.
Speaker 1: I was doing all the things I probably shouldn't have,
Speaker 1: been impulsive and distracting myself and blaming all the things.
Speaker 2: Yes, you're giving me the chills when you're talking about it,
Speaker 2: because I have such a passion for women going through
Speaker 2: divorce and the lack of this kind of conceptionalism and
Speaker 2: that I think would be so useful and grounding. And
Speaker 2: even what you're saying that you did ten years ago,
Speaker 2: none of that is quote wrong. It's just your perception
Speaker 2: and conceptualization of it at the time probably felt really
Speaker 2: internally disorienting and the opposite of grounding, right that had
Speaker 2: you had the language and the sort of conceptualization that like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is okay, this is part of trauma. This is
Speaker 2: my trauma brain. I'm noticing it. I'm dealing with it.
Speaker 2: As I said before, I'm dancing with it. I'm pausing,
Speaker 2: I'm reflecting on my intuition. I'm stopping. I'm turning around
Speaker 2: and making a different choice. It's not that had you
Speaker 2: had this information, you wouldn't have done all those things.
Speaker 2: That's trauma. We're not avoiding the hard parts. We're not
Speaker 2: avoiding the blaming, the distracting, the depression, the making of
Speaker 2: the wrong choices, the like disobeying our intuition. We're still
Speaker 2: going to do it. This is trauma. This is trauma.
Speaker 2: So trauma's messy, But you had language to go Wait
Speaker 2: a minute, let me pause, let me slow this down,
Speaker 2: let me be more intentional, let me rescue myself from
Speaker 2: this mission. It's not working for me right, and so
Speaker 2: I just want to hold that space for women out
Speaker 2: there going through it that having this conceptualization doesn't take
Speaker 2: away the pain and the journey and the tendency to
Speaker 2: do all the things you're talking about. It just gives
Speaker 2: a language to talk about it to ourselves so we
Speaker 2: aren't shamed, and to rescue ourselves when we notice we're
Speaker 2: going in a place we don't belong.
Speaker 1: So good. What if the idea of dating repulses me,
Speaker 1: I mean you, I remember thinking I would rather lick
Speaker 1: the bottom of my shoe than go on a date. No,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. My answer to that is, well, before I
Speaker 2: say this, people around you will encourage you to adjust
Speaker 2: your perspective in that regard and hold tight to what
Speaker 2: feels her current experience. If it feels repulsive, let it
Speaker 2: feel that way. And what it was going to say
Speaker 2: with that context is get curious. That's so interesting, that's
Speaker 2: so interesting. Tell me much more, although you're talking to yourself,
Speaker 2: tell me much more, like why? What? What about it?
Speaker 2: Like all the dirty details of what you're thinking? What
Speaker 2: makes it feel so awful and so intolerable and so
Speaker 2: completely unsustainable? Get really curious. Don't shame it, don't try
Speaker 2: to shift it, don't try to change it, don't try
Speaker 2: to modify it. And I would offer conceptualize it as
Speaker 2: a season rather than a lifelong conception. Right. If it
Speaker 2: turns into a lifelong conception, I don't know. We'll think
Speaker 2: about it then. Right, But it makes a lot of
Speaker 2: sense that post divorce and in trauma, particularly if you
Speaker 2: were blamed and shamed and disrespected and there was infidelity
Speaker 2: betray all of that, and even if you weren't that
Speaker 2: the idea of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation again,
Speaker 2: and trusting yourself to show up in a way that
Speaker 2: is steeped in self care is scary, and so having
Speaker 2: a lot of grace and compassion for yourself and allowing
Speaker 2: that to be so. So, my goal for a person
Speaker 2: sitting in front of me who had that going on
Speaker 2: wouldn't be to change their mind, but would be to
Speaker 2: get really to build a relationship with that truth, right,
Speaker 2: to get to know it and follow it. Does it shift,
Speaker 2: does it change, does it dissipate? Does it deepen? How interesting? Right?
Speaker 2: And then if it becomes something that is completely unshakable
Speaker 2: in over a long period of time, maybe we go deeper,
Speaker 2: you know, we start thinking about does this bump up
Speaker 2: against other experiences in your life, childhood dynamics, abandonment, being devalued,
Speaker 2: not seen, betrayed as a child, or in other relationships,
Speaker 2: and do we need to look at that intersection and
Speaker 2: start to work to reduce the hold that you know,
Speaker 2: my goal as a clinician is to help people access
Speaker 2: connection and love and community, assuming that's one's goal, and
Speaker 2: it is most people's goal. And so if it comes
Speaker 2: to a point where someone is really keeping themselves from
Speaker 2: those things, then we look at that, but that initial
Speaker 2: feeling should be paradoxically completely honored.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're saying, get curious, ask yourself questions
Speaker 1: about things. I think For me personally, after it happened,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to talk to myself. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to ask myself questions. I don't want to trust myself
Speaker 1: because I was I felt damaged and hurt and like
Speaker 1: I couldn't trust myself.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that, because
Speaker 2: I think that feeling stated ubiquitous for divorced women. That's
Speaker 2: sort of like, I don't want to get close to it.
Speaker 2: I don't want to feel it. I don't want to
Speaker 2: feel the hurt, and I don't want to feel the
Speaker 2: self blame or shame that we cultivate around what we
Speaker 2: did to contribute and where we are and society's reflection
Speaker 2: about where we are now all of that. And again,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't try to suggest that we can make that
Speaker 2: feeling go away, but rather, and this is the hardest part,
Speaker 2: but rather just get a lit a little bit closer
Speaker 2: to it, a little bit closer to it. What is that?
Speaker 2: Why am I so afraid to go to the feelings
Speaker 2: what's the worst that's going to happen. What do I
Speaker 2: think is going to occur? You know if I just
Speaker 2: take one step closer to it. And what I'm about
Speaker 2: to say is super practical, but I think useful, which
Speaker 2: is that when we are in avoidance mode of feelings,
Speaker 2: setting aside five minutes to sit with the feeling. Literally,
Speaker 2: I mean taking out your phone and setting five minutes
Speaker 2: and whatever feels right to you, whether it's journaling or
Speaker 2: talking with a friend or just thinking about something that
Speaker 2: feels tricky, and then just being done with it, gently
Speaker 2: urging the feelings back. It's going to be there when
Speaker 2: I'm ready again, and just for the purpose, even if
Speaker 2: it doesn't change much of our feeling state, for the
Speaker 2: purpose of interrupting our neural pathways that are well traveled.
Speaker 2: We get the feeling and our immediate response is to
Speaker 2: not go to it. Denial, suppression, avoidance. That's a neural
Speaker 2: pathway we travel over and over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: We want to interrupt that so we have more choices
Speaker 2: for other things over time, and even if we interrupt
Speaker 2: it with like five minutes of like gentle thinking about it,
Speaker 2: we start to change our brain chemistry around it.
Speaker 1: Okay, say it's time to date, we've gotten to that point.
Speaker 1: What do we need to do emotionally, physically, mentally so
Speaker 1: that we don't make the same mistakes?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we were married to someone who wasn't right
Speaker 1: for us, how do we know how to not do
Speaker 1: that again?
Speaker 2: Yes, so my answer is going to be a little tricky,
Speaker 2: but based in reality and anecdotal experience and clinical experience.
Speaker 2: I suppose that is not totally the question, because that
Speaker 2: question is a pretty big setup for failure at the
Speaker 2: smallest event, Right, how do I not do this again?
Speaker 2: And then we're at dinner and you say something to
Speaker 2: impress someone rather than being more authentic. Now all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, you're doing it again, and you failed failed, Right,
Speaker 2: And you go out with someone and you over text
Speaker 2: them and are needy or clinging in your estimation. You
Speaker 2: failed again. And so the question is not how do
Speaker 2: I not do the same thing? The question is how
Speaker 2: do I get How do I stay close to my
Speaker 2: process so I continue continuously evaluate how it feels to
Speaker 2: me and how it's going, and where my blind spots
Speaker 2: are and where my vulnerabilities are, and where some of
Speaker 2: my less adaptive behaviors show up and I can step
Speaker 2: in and interrupt them or correct them, or repair and
Speaker 2: go back and try again. Right. So the idea that
Speaker 2: we can just and I know you were saying exactly this,
Speaker 2: but the idea that we can just flip from like
Speaker 2: doing it wrong to doing it right is way too tricky.
Speaker 2: We're flawed humans.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's kind of unrealistic.
Speaker 2: Yes, And even the best relationships we have, stuff we
Speaker 2: show up in ways we don't feel good about and like,
Speaker 2: oh I did it again, I did that thing where
Speaker 2: I snap at my partner.
Speaker 1: I suck, Yeah, I suck, right, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2: So the question is just how can I track myself?
Speaker 2: How can I hold myself accountable in a gentle, loving way.
Speaker 2: When I say accountable, I don't mean like not having
Speaker 2: a misstep, I mean like my I feeling about going
Speaker 2: out tonight. How do I feel when I'm with this person?
Speaker 2: How does he make me feel? How do I feel
Speaker 2: when I'm sitting with him? Do I feel like interested
Speaker 2: and compelled? Do I feel bored? Do I feel a
Speaker 2: sense of like I don't know, like rowdedness, safety orientation,
Speaker 2: or does it seem like I'm not being listened to,
Speaker 2: or like just getting curious about how you feel in
Speaker 2: scenarios with dates and men, right, and getting curious about
Speaker 2: how you show up. Wow, I like really talked a lot,
Speaker 2: or I didn't talk at all, or like, gosh, I
Speaker 2: was so triggered once we said good night, all I
Speaker 2: could think about was in texting or calling, right, just
Speaker 2: noticing the stuff that comes up. I think the edict
Speaker 2: people put on themselves is trying to avoid having any
Speaker 2: of these things happen, and when they do, feeling guilt
Speaker 2: and shame, embarrassment, judgment, self criticism as opposed to like,
Speaker 2: oh so interesting, what's that about? And how do I
Speaker 2: feel about it? And that doesn't feel good to me.
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel good to me that I'm overvaluating if
Speaker 2: this person is going to contact me again? For example? Right,
Speaker 2: what's that about? What is it connected to? How do
Speaker 2: I feel my body when I think about it? Are
Speaker 2: there resources tools I can put in place to help
Speaker 2: manage those tricky feelings when they come up? Be a
Speaker 2: friends via self soothing, meditation, therapy. Right? What can I
Speaker 2: do when I notice something is not serving me well?
Speaker 2: And so that is how we mobilize a path that
Speaker 2: is different is staying present and in it and close
Speaker 2: to our feelings rather than some macro sort of edict
Speaker 2: that we have to show up a certain or a
Speaker 2: different way.
Speaker 1: When is it the right time to start talking to
Speaker 1: the new person about our ex or the bloody massacre
Speaker 1: that was the relationship, or what happened in our relationship,
Speaker 1: or even if we have kids, Like that's the second
Speaker 1: I would think, the second thing you would talk to
Speaker 1: them about, Like, you know, what's the timeline for those
Speaker 1: kinds of things like how when do I talk about
Speaker 1: my ex? When do I talk about my kids that
Speaker 1: I have?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one, and I'll probably be a
Speaker 2: little more prescriptive about this. Look, I mean, before I
Speaker 2: say what I'm going to say again, intuition, if you
Speaker 2: know it feels right and there's a sharing and well
Speaker 2: maybe maybe it happens and it's a respontanious way, trust
Speaker 2: yourself if that feels right, and if you end up
Speaker 2: regretting it. That's an example of what we were just
Speaker 2: talking about. There's no like this is the answer. Having
Speaker 2: said that, I think in this arena it's almost like
Speaker 2: phi like private health information, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I think about phi, right, You're not like sharing other
Speaker 2: people's health information without intention, and so think of it
Speaker 2: as kind of your private health information, right, And you
Speaker 2: wouldn't give it to just anyone. It's a sacred part
Speaker 2: of who you are. And it's fragile, particularly post divorce.
Speaker 2: In the year or two afterwards, like ten years afterwards,
Speaker 2: it's less so you might be able to just make
Speaker 2: a joke about it casually to an acquaintance you just met, right,
Speaker 2: But in those first couple of years it's really sensitive
Speaker 2: and fragile. And treating it with care I think matters
Speaker 2: to the healing process. There's like a gravity and a
Speaker 2: sombreness to it that relates to that trauma. We were
Speaker 2: talking about. Not using it to garner sympathy or to
Speaker 2: fill in idle moments on a date, right, not giving
Speaker 2: up more of yourself too soon, you know, establishing a
Speaker 2: connection and a sense of who this other person is
Speaker 2: and determining if your fragile health information is you know,
Speaker 2: sort of feels right. Sharing And I was about to
Speaker 2: use the word safe, and look, it's tricky. We've met
Speaker 2: someone two times, five times, ten times, do we really
Speaker 2: know for sure if they can promise like a robust
Speaker 2: sort of period of safety. I don't know, we all
Speaker 2: know plenty of stories where it seems to be true
Speaker 2: and it ends up not being true. So I would
Speaker 2: just say, proceed with care, continue to notice how do
Speaker 2: I feel with this person? How do I share around them?
Speaker 2: How do they seem to communicate notions around their own feelings?
Speaker 2: What is their emotional intelligence level? Look like, right, are slow?
Speaker 2: You know, start flow? You don't have to give the
Speaker 2: whole story up. You might say that's that's a painful
Speaker 2: period and I'm still processing it, and like, you know,
Speaker 2: over time, perhaps they'll share more. Right if your body
Speaker 2: is still telling you I'm ready here? And kids, I
Speaker 2: think I would look at it sort of two ways.
Speaker 2: I think it's factually important to sort of say like
Speaker 2: I have a you know, a ten, eight and five
Speaker 2: year old, and you know, the light of my lives.
Speaker 2: I have them halftime and like huge part of who
Speaker 2: I am and how I move through the world. No,
Speaker 2: that's true for you. I think it's important to have
Speaker 2: that truth be proudly conveyed and implicit in that is
Speaker 2: that if you're interested in getting to know me, that's
Speaker 2: that's part of who I am right. That's important. So
Speaker 2: you know, read out folks that are like, I don't
Speaker 2: want to be with someone that has kids that little,
Speaker 2: or don't want to be with some of those three
Speaker 2: kids versus one. Right, whatever it is, I would embody
Speaker 2: that part of your identity as a mother pretty quickly
Speaker 2: to support that part of the process in terms of
Speaker 2: your relationship with your kids, your relationship with your ads,
Speaker 2: how you co parent. Again, you might give like a
Speaker 2: macro like it's a work in progress. It can be
Speaker 2: tricky and it can be amazing and you know, perhaps
Speaker 2: more information you know, to come in the future. Right.
Speaker 1: I love these answers you're giving because there are things
Speaker 1: that people can actually say and if you're listening, I
Speaker 1: want to do this and I'm not even going through
Speaker 1: a divorce. I want to write these sentences that these
Speaker 1: responses down and just like have a cheat sheet in
Speaker 1: my pocket on my day and be like one second,
Speaker 1: let me just check. Oh yeah, it's complicated, and I'm my.
Speaker 2: Clients do that all the time, right down the sentences.
Speaker 2: That's that's one of the ways I love to work. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: I think it's nice to have something prepared ay and
Speaker 2: to not feel pressure to share more than you were
Speaker 2: ready and to really own and embody the truth without
Speaker 2: sharing too much, which is like, it's tricky right now,
Speaker 2: tricky season, and perhaps over time I'll share more, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's enough.
Speaker 2: That's enough. You don't own more, and it reflects your truth.
Speaker 2: They're not shying away from it. You don't have to
Speaker 2: say you're co parenting beautifully and over the divorce if
Speaker 2: you're not, and you're not. But you also don't have
Speaker 2: to share and explain everything you can own. I'm in
Speaker 2: the messy middle. I know it, I accept it. I'm
Speaker 2: taking it on and like more to come.
Speaker 1: So good. Okay, So say you have kids, right? I
Speaker 1: love though that you should pretty early on let them
Speaker 1: know your situation. You know, I have two kids and
Speaker 1: two dogs or whatever, because you don't want that to
Speaker 1: bite you in the ass if you haven't told them.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and you own that. You own
Speaker 2: it's a big part of your life if it's true.
Speaker 2: Is with that you don't just say that but meaning
Speaker 2: the latter part, but just owning I'm like an amazing
Speaker 2: part of who I am. I'm a mom with two kids.
Speaker 2: They're five and seven and what I got going on,
Speaker 2: And that's it, right, that's so good. God.
Speaker 1: How much of a say should your kids get about
Speaker 1: you dating again? That's hard because it just I'm sure
Speaker 1: it depends on like the age of the kids. I
Speaker 1: know when I started dating, I had young and I
Speaker 1: had it a sixteen year old who was very opinionated
Speaker 1: about every move I made.
Speaker 2: Yep. So I'm going to answer this in like gradients,
Speaker 2: because you're right, it really depends on the age of
Speaker 2: the kids. So if you have little kids and like
Speaker 2: I'm defining, I'm eliminating like babies and like really small.
Speaker 2: But you know, if you're like in the like four
Speaker 2: year old, so like I don't know, like ten year old,
Speaker 2: to the extent possible, you're not updating your children on
Speaker 2: your dating life. There's really no need for them to know.
Speaker 2: In my clinical opinion, I would only introduce the concept
Speaker 2: if and when someone important came into your life and
Speaker 2: you planned on introducing them, which is a whole other
Speaker 2: topic we can talk about, and I have a whole
Speaker 2: approach about what that would look like. But there if
Speaker 2: they come to know you're out on a Thursday with
Speaker 2: Joe for whatever reason, I would just frame it as
Speaker 2: a friend and leave it there. There's no reason to
Speaker 2: burden young kids with adult information unless it's relevant and important.
Speaker 2: And your date with Joe on Thursday is not relevant
Speaker 2: and important unless Joe becomes your person, right and you
Speaker 2: have a much more deliberate conversation, which, as I said,
Speaker 2: we can talk about. So I'm saying a version of like,
Speaker 2: keep it from them. There's no reason for your little
Speaker 2: kids to know that you're dating your older kids, who
Speaker 2: might even proactively ask the question or just come to
Speaker 2: know because they are conscious beings.
Speaker 1: Right, that's been.
Speaker 2: Going out, right. I think it's really important to have
Speaker 2: a conversation with your kids, and not on the night
Speaker 2: you're going out with Joe, Like, how do you feel
Speaker 2: about this? I'm leaving in thirty minutes that like, if
Speaker 2: they're talking about it, or it's in the atmosphere that
Speaker 2: you sit down with them and go like huh, Like tricky,
Speaker 2: You're thinking about the idea that I might start dating,
Speaker 2: And you're right, and that has to feel like really weird,
Speaker 2: really really weird and hard. I know it feels weird
Speaker 2: and hard to me, so I can't imagine what it
Speaker 2: feels like to you. I want to sit here and
Speaker 2: tell me everything you're thinking about it. I want to
Speaker 2: hear it and just open up a space. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you have a kiddo who will talk, right, I'll
Speaker 2: if you don't. But if you have a kid who
Speaker 2: will talk, great, And I don't like it. I want
Speaker 2: you and Daddy to get back together. I think it's
Speaker 2: so lame. I think it's so gross. I want you
Speaker 2: to leave me, to go out. Like all the things
Speaker 2: that you just validate. You don't try to change their mind,
Speaker 2: you know, try to justify it. But I'm here all
Speaker 2: the time. It's just two hours you lean in. I
Speaker 2: feel so bad, like no matter how often I'm here
Speaker 2: with you, it just feels so bad. It feels so awful.
Speaker 2: Of course, you wish your mom and dad were together, Like,
Speaker 2: I get it, get it, and this is a reminder
Speaker 2: that we're not. I get it.
Speaker 1: So I feel so emotional because I can just like
Speaker 1: remember all of this and I'm trying to navigate it
Speaker 1: the best I could without these amazing tools.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so difficult. But for the kids, and this
Speaker 2: is not age dependant. All they're thinking all the time,
Speaker 2: especially at the beginning, is I just wish my mom
Speaker 2: and dad were together. And we are a version of
Speaker 2: over it because we're the adults and we've thought about it,
Speaker 2: and we've been ideally intentional about it, and we're working
Speaker 2: to move through it. We have decided, or at least
Speaker 2: have been told, that we're not going to be with
Speaker 2: that person. Our kids, they have no say, and they
Speaker 2: don't get to move on like we do. They don't
Speaker 2: get to move on. It's a chronic trama that their
Speaker 2: parents aren't together. And our parental edict is to like
Speaker 2: imagine or facilitate our kids not suffering, you know, and
Speaker 2: so we just want to see But they seem okay,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not going to bring up that this might
Speaker 2: be painful for them, because they seem fine in many ways,
Speaker 2: they are fine and functional and thriving. But they're never
Speaker 2: fine that their mom and dad aren't together. And it's
Speaker 2: never not a good time to say I get it.
Speaker 2: I know that's still on your mind, even if you're
Speaker 2: ten years out. You know that you're a new person,
Speaker 2: right that you're still I know this still might bump
Speaker 2: up against this wound your dad. That's painful. It's never
Speaker 2: okay from your standpoint. I get it, and so the
Speaker 2: messaging in that moment about your date with you know,
Speaker 2: Joe coming up, is not about the date with Joe
Speaker 2: and trying to explain that it doesn't mean a lot.
Speaker 2: It's I know this matters, that this is going to
Speaker 2: start happening, and I know it matters because you're in
Speaker 2: pain and I see it and I feel it and
Speaker 2: I can't fix it. But I want you to have
Speaker 2: a space to talk about it. I want you to
Speaker 2: know that I love you, your father loves you. What
Speaker 2: I'm about to say, if this is all true, there
Speaker 2: are many complex scenarios where it's not. But and we
Speaker 2: are still a family because we'll always be your mom
Speaker 2: and dad will always co parents, and we'll always all
Speaker 2: have that connection. Having said that, it's not the same,
Speaker 2: and I know that's what this brings up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a pause right here. I want to
Speaker 1: continue this conversation because there's so much more that I
Speaker 1: have to ask you. If you want to call us
Speaker 1: for advice one eight four four four I do pod.
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Speaker 1: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
Speaker 1: love is the main objective