1 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: I Do, Part two is a unique podcast that is 2 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: all about divorce and heartbreak and the idea that you 3 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: can find love again. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny Garth, 4 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: and I know that the path to love isn't always 5 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: an easy road to travel, a theme that has come 6 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: up on this podcast a lot has been about self 7 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: reflection and growth that goes hand in hand with divorce. 8 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you're forced to take a hard 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: look at things, and sometimes the best way to make 10 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: sense of it all is through therapy. Therapy, therapy. I 11 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: want to bring on today doctor Hillary Goldsher, an incredible 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: psychologist who does in depth work in the arena of relationships, 13 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: to have an honest conversation about all the things divorced 14 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: people should know or be asking themselves when getting back 15 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: out there in the dating scene. So with that, Hello 16 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: doctor Hillary, Hi Jenny, so nice to meet you. Thank 17 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: you for coming on our podcast. My Please, we need you. 18 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: We all need you. As you already probably know, this 19 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: podcast is all about people that haven't gotten it right 20 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: in love before they're divorced. Maybe they're a single parent, 21 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: but they haven't given up on the idea of finding 22 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: their person. So I wanted to chat about all the 23 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: things or questions that divorced people that are ready to 24 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: date again should be thinking about or asking themselves. 25 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: Love it sound good, I don't. 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: Let's go. Let's do this. How do we heal from 27 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: the pain of a divorce? Big question? I'm starting out swinging. 28 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, just a one sentence answer. No, I'm glad you're 29 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: asking that so distinctly because it gives me a chance 30 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: to say the following, which is that in my work, 31 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: I like to conceptualize divorce as a trauma. And this 32 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: is relevant regardless of the divorce. If the divorce is 33 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: amicable and mutual, or the divorce is high conflict and 34 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: one person doesn't want it right, the shift in paradigm 35 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: and the resultant change in orientation and related stability and 36 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: sort of spirit and soul is typically pretty shocking to 37 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: both parties thereafter, particularly women, And that I guess is 38 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: gender stereotypical, but it is often true in my experience, 39 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: and so having an opportunity to think of it like 40 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: that gives women going through it an opportunity to heal 41 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: any very intentional, prolonged way. And yes, when you think about, like, well, 42 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: how do you heal, you begin by realizing that your heart, body, mind, 43 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: and soul are going through something traumatic and profound. 44 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that because it gives people 45 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: the opportunity to say, Wow, this is I'm in trauma, 46 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: like you said, and I need to be kind to 47 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: myself in this process, take care of myself. 48 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: Yes, I like to call the season post divorce the 49 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: quote after marriage, because there's an entire relationship with the 50 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: season of post marriage, who you are, who you want 51 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: to be, how you feel separate, and disentangling finances and 52 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: kids stuff if they're involved. It's an entirely other relationship 53 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: that you in some cases get to co create with 54 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: your ex and in some cases have to create on 55 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: your own if there isn't an amicable relationship. So it 56 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: gives an opportunity to think about what do I need 57 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: to soothe myself? What resources do I need to mobilize 58 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: to help myself through. What are the different phases that 59 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 2: I'm going through, and what do I need in each 60 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: one of them to sort of help myself develop into 61 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: the person I want to be in this new season 62 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 2: of my life. 63 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: Oh, that's going to be exciting. We're going to get 64 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: into that but I want to talk about accountability. I 65 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: think that how do we take our own accountability for 66 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: the things that happen in the marriage and not just 67 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: point the finger, not just blame the other party. 68 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: So slowing that process down is painful but critical. There 69 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: is absolutely room to identify the pain points, the frustrations, 70 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: the hurts, the betrayals, the infidelities, whatever occurred. Talk about 71 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: them and hold them up and feel them in a 72 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: safe environment with friends, a therapist, family, et cetera. It's 73 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: not only important but mandatory necessary. It is okay for 74 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 2: a part of the process to be anger. That's how 75 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: we move through it. We don't we don't dismiss it, 76 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: we don't suppress it, we don't paint it with like 77 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: a pretty color. We like dance with it. We hold it. 78 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: We decide what it's done to us and what we 79 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: want it to do to us moving forward. So I 80 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 2: could talk a lot more about that, but I want 81 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: to really be specific about reserving a space for all 82 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: of those feelings and being really deliberate about it. It's 83 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: a critical part of healing. Having said that, it is 84 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: also really important to say what about me? What about me? 85 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: Because two things can be true. At the same time, 86 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: you could have been betrayed and let down and hurt, 87 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: mistreat disrespected. All of those things can be true and devastating, 88 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: But there's some way in which we co created, even 89 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: if the quote only way we co created is that 90 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: we allowed it to happen for too long. We didn't advocate, 91 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: we didn't say no more, we didn't say you're not listening. 92 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: I'm staying in it until you do right and so 93 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: being able to recognize what our part is in co 94 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: creating this sustained dynamic is critical for healing and not 95 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: repeating it in future relationships. So it's an interesting dichotomy 96 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: because if you were mistreated, disrespected, cheated, on et cetera, 97 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: the understandable premise might be this is on him. I 98 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: don't need to look at this. I'm just the victim. 99 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: And in many ways that's a portion of that is true. 100 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: But what I just said is critical, or the healing 101 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: is not robust and not and doesn't have long jeopardy. 102 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: We need to figure out what we co created, what 103 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 2: we in, what our input was to make this dynamic 104 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: occur over and over and over again. 105 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: Yes, I always say stop pointing the finger and start 106 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: pulling the thumb. Yeah, so it works for me exactly. 107 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: It's really important to allow for both that there's something 108 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: really use that word again, robust and fulfilling about both, 109 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: allowing space for both. We get to be mad and frustrated, 110 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: angry and hurt, and we get to say it to 111 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: save for others. But we have to also figure out 112 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: how do we contribute. We have to or our healing 113 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: is not going to be complete and some version of 114 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 2: the pattern is going to repeat again. Whether it's enough 115 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: romantic relationship, a friendship, a professional environment with your kiddos, 116 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: it will reveal itself again until we tangle with it. 117 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: How do we know when it's time to date again? 118 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: I mean, should people try dating even if they don't 119 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: feel ready. 120 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, glad you're asking that, because this is a topic 121 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: where I feel like it's so important for people to 122 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: practice relying on their own intuition. Because there's so many 123 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: cliches about this question. Well, you should lead a certain 124 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: amount of time, or you're not healed, or you should 125 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: get out there. 126 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: Or you got to get back out there, get on 127 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: the horse, yeah. 128 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: Right, or you're not really prioritizing yourself or taking care 129 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: of yourself. Neither of those things are absolute truth. There 130 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: is no I'm a clinician, I'm a doctor. This is 131 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: what I do. There is no here's the answer. The 132 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: answer is within you and your first guess at it 133 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: may be wrong. Right. You might decide I'm ready. It's 134 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: important that I get out there. It's important that I 135 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: start this. And you try it and it doesn't feel right. 136 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: It doesn't feel fulfilling. It feels stressful or anxiety provoking, 137 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: or in some way uncomfortable, and so we check it 138 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: again with our intuition to go. That wasn't a match. 139 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: We pause, We surround ourselves with comforts and safe people 140 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: and known quantities, and we try it right. And if 141 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: the sort of edict that like right, If you go 142 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: out there too quickly, you aren't dealing with your pain 143 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: and your trauma, and you're covering up your feelings with 144 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 2: other people and the dynamics that that can create. Something 145 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: to bunch out for. That can be true, But allow 146 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: yourself to discover that it's really important post divorce to 147 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: start carving your own path. And carving your own path 148 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: doesn't mean just an upward trajectory where everything just keeps 149 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: getting better. And better and better and more successful in 150 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: me building a tolerance for carving your own path and stumbling, Oh, 151 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: that didn't work, that didn't feel good. Actually didn't make 152 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: me feel more expansive and more grounded. It made me 153 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: feel more destabilized and disoriented. Good. Good that you're able 154 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: to realize that insight and go back and by again. 155 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 2: So my answer is look within and take take your 156 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: best guess, and honor yourself as you do that. And 157 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: if it isn't a match, if it isn't resonant, honor 158 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: your ability to go back and shift it. It's so 159 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: much of what we don't do in a marriage that 160 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: doesn't work. Look at your intuition, honor it, change we get. 161 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: Peah, I was going to say, it's after that kind 162 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: of trauma and you're in the grieving process, it's so 163 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: hard to rely or trust your own instincts when they 164 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: come up, you know. So you're saying it's a good 165 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: idea to really listen deeply to your own instincts. 166 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: Yes, and to your point, which is so critical when 167 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: you're destabilized, which is going to occur post trauma or 168 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: during trauma. Right, there's something my world we call like 169 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: trauma brain, which is exactly what it sounds like, like, 170 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: can't think the way I usually do, can't remember what 171 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: my errand was, can't remember my kid had soccer tomorrow? Right, 172 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: you just think and focus and orientation is off, either 173 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 2: intermittently or like on the regular, And so to your point, 174 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: it will probably be difficult to access intuition, and so 175 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: not stopping there, but saying, like, right, my road to 176 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: my intuition is a little rocky right now. It's a 177 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: little stumbly, it's a little unclear. That's okay. I'm like gonna, 178 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 2: you know, sort of hike through it and make my 179 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: best guess and adjust as I recognize it either fits 180 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: or doesn't, because the extreme of that is to either 181 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: stay completely paralyzed and do nothing, or to not think 182 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: at all, not reflect internally at all and just sort 183 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: of act impulsively and sitting with that messy middle of like, well, sure, 184 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: but this is my best guess about what feels right 185 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 2: to me, and I'm here for myself if I find 186 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: out that's not true. 187 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: Okay, Can I just say I really wish I had 188 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: you about ten years ago, because well, we're just talking 189 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: about it now and it's taking me back to that trauma, 190 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: and I feel in my body like that, I feel 191 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: tense and a little tingly, And it was just you're so, 192 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: it's so true what you're saying. And I never gave 193 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: it any of these thoughts when I was going through it. 194 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: I was doing all the things I probably shouldn't have, 195 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: been impulsive and distracting myself and blaming all the things. 196 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 2: Yes, you're giving me the chills when you're talking about it, 197 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: because I have such a passion for women going through 198 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: divorce and the lack of this kind of conceptionalism and 199 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: that I think would be so useful and grounding. And 200 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: even what you're saying that you did ten years ago, 201 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: none of that is quote wrong. It's just your perception 202 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: and conceptualization of it at the time probably felt really 203 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: internally disorienting and the opposite of grounding, right that had 204 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 2: you had the language and the sort of conceptualization that like, oh, yeah, 205 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: this is okay, this is part of trauma. This is 206 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 2: my trauma brain. I'm noticing it. I'm dealing with it. 207 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: As I said before, I'm dancing with it. I'm pausing, 208 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: I'm reflecting on my intuition. I'm stopping. I'm turning around 209 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: and making a different choice. It's not that had you 210 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: had this information, you wouldn't have done all those things. 211 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: That's trauma. We're not avoiding the hard parts. We're not 212 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: avoiding the blaming, the distracting, the depression, the making of 213 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: the wrong choices, the like disobeying our intuition. We're still 214 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: going to do it. This is trauma. This is trauma. 215 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: So trauma's messy, But you had language to go Wait 216 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 2: a minute, let me pause, let me slow this down, 217 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: let me be more intentional, let me rescue myself from 218 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 2: this mission. It's not working for me right, and so 219 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 2: I just want to hold that space for women out 220 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: there going through it that having this conceptualization doesn't take 221 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: away the pain and the journey and the tendency to 222 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: do all the things you're talking about. It just gives 223 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: a language to talk about it to ourselves so we 224 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: aren't shamed, and to rescue ourselves when we notice we're 225 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 2: going in a place we don't belong. 226 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: So good. What if the idea of dating repulses me, 227 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean you, I remember thinking I would rather lick 228 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: the bottom of my shoe than go on a date. No, 229 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. 230 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. My answer to that is, well, before I 231 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: say this, people around you will encourage you to adjust 232 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: your perspective in that regard and hold tight to what 233 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: feels her current experience. If it feels repulsive, let it 234 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: feel that way. And what it was going to say 235 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: with that context is get curious. That's so interesting, that's 236 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: so interesting. Tell me much more, although you're talking to yourself, 237 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: tell me much more, like why? What? What about it? 238 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: Like all the dirty details of what you're thinking? What 239 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 2: makes it feel so awful and so intolerable and so 240 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: completely unsustainable? Get really curious. Don't shame it, don't try 241 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: to shift it, don't try to change it, don't try 242 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: to modify it. And I would offer conceptualize it as 243 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: a season rather than a lifelong conception. Right. If it 244 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: turns into a lifelong conception, I don't know. We'll think 245 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: about it then. Right, But it makes a lot of 246 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: sense that post divorce and in trauma, particularly if you 247 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: were blamed and shamed and disrespected and there was infidelity 248 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: betray all of that, and even if you weren't that 249 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: the idea of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation again, 250 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: and trusting yourself to show up in a way that 251 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: is steeped in self care is scary, and so having 252 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: a lot of grace and compassion for yourself and allowing 253 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: that to be so. So, my goal for a person 254 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: sitting in front of me who had that going on 255 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't be to change their mind, but would be to 256 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: get really to build a relationship with that truth, right, 257 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: to get to know it and follow it. Does it shift, 258 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: does it change, does it dissipate? Does it deepen? How interesting? Right? 259 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: And then if it becomes something that is completely unshakable 260 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: in over a long period of time, maybe we go deeper, 261 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: you know, we start thinking about does this bump up 262 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: against other experiences in your life, childhood dynamics, abandonment, being devalued, 263 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: not seen, betrayed as a child, or in other relationships, 264 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: and do we need to look at that intersection and 265 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: start to work to reduce the hold that you know, 266 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: my goal as a clinician is to help people access 267 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: connection and love and community, assuming that's one's goal, and 268 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: it is most people's goal. And so if it comes 269 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: to a point where someone is really keeping themselves from 270 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: those things, then we look at that, but that initial 271 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: feeling should be paradoxically completely honored. 272 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're saying, get curious, ask yourself questions 273 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: about things. I think For me personally, after it happened, 274 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: I didn't want to talk to myself. I didn't want 275 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: to ask myself questions. I don't want to trust myself 276 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: because I was I felt damaged and hurt and like 277 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't trust myself. 278 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that, because 279 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: I think that feeling stated ubiquitous for divorced women. That's 280 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: sort of like, I don't want to get close to it. 281 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: I don't want to feel it. I don't want to 282 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 2: feel the hurt, and I don't want to feel the 283 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 2: self blame or shame that we cultivate around what we 284 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: did to contribute and where we are and society's reflection 285 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: about where we are now all of that. And again, 286 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: I wouldn't try to suggest that we can make that 287 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: feeling go away, but rather, and this is the hardest part, 288 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: but rather just get a lit a little bit closer 289 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: to it, a little bit closer to it. What is that? 290 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: Why am I so afraid to go to the feelings 291 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: what's the worst that's going to happen. What do I 292 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: think is going to occur? You know if I just 293 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: take one step closer to it. And what I'm about 294 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: to say is super practical, but I think useful, which 295 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 2: is that when we are in avoidance mode of feelings, 296 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 2: setting aside five minutes to sit with the feeling. Literally, 297 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: I mean taking out your phone and setting five minutes 298 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: and whatever feels right to you, whether it's journaling or 299 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: talking with a friend or just thinking about something that 300 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: feels tricky, and then just being done with it, gently 301 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: urging the feelings back. It's going to be there when 302 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: I'm ready again, and just for the purpose, even if 303 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: it doesn't change much of our feeling state, for the 304 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: purpose of interrupting our neural pathways that are well traveled. 305 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: We get the feeling and our immediate response is to 306 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 2: not go to it. Denial, suppression, avoidance. That's a neural 307 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 2: pathway we travel over and over and over and over again. 308 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: We want to interrupt that so we have more choices 309 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: for other things over time, and even if we interrupt 310 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: it with like five minutes of like gentle thinking about it, 311 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: we start to change our brain chemistry around it. 312 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: Okay, say it's time to date, we've gotten to that point. 313 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: What do we need to do emotionally, physically, mentally so 314 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: that we don't make the same mistakes? 315 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: You know? 316 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, if we were married to someone who wasn't right 317 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: for us, how do we know how to not do 318 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: that again? 319 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 2: Yes, so my answer is going to be a little tricky, 320 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 2: but based in reality and anecdotal experience and clinical experience. 321 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 2: I suppose that is not totally the question, because that 322 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: question is a pretty big setup for failure at the 323 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 2: smallest event, Right, how do I not do this again? 324 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: And then we're at dinner and you say something to 325 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: impress someone rather than being more authentic. Now all of 326 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: a sudden, you're doing it again, and you failed failed, Right, 327 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: And you go out with someone and you over text 328 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: them and are needy or clinging in your estimation. You 329 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: failed again. And so the question is not how do 330 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: I not do the same thing? The question is how 331 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: do I get How do I stay close to my 332 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 2: process so I continue continuously evaluate how it feels to 333 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: me and how it's going, and where my blind spots 334 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: are and where my vulnerabilities are, and where some of 335 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: my less adaptive behaviors show up and I can step 336 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: in and interrupt them or correct them, or repair and 337 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: go back and try again. Right. So the idea that 338 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: we can just and I know you were saying exactly this, 339 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: but the idea that we can just flip from like 340 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 2: doing it wrong to doing it right is way too tricky. 341 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: We're flawed humans. 342 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, that's kind of unrealistic. 343 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: Yes, And even the best relationships we have, stuff we 344 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: show up in ways we don't feel good about and like, 345 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: oh I did it again, I did that thing where 346 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 2: I snap at my partner. 347 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: I suck, Yeah, I suck, right, what's wrong with me? 348 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: So the question is just how can I track myself? 349 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: How can I hold myself accountable in a gentle, loving way. 350 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: When I say accountable, I don't mean like not having 351 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: a misstep, I mean like my I feeling about going 352 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 2: out tonight. How do I feel when I'm with this person? 353 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 2: How does he make me feel? How do I feel 354 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: when I'm sitting with him? Do I feel like interested 355 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: and compelled? Do I feel bored? Do I feel a 356 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: sense of like I don't know, like rowdedness, safety orientation, 357 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 2: or does it seem like I'm not being listened to, 358 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 2: or like just getting curious about how you feel in 359 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 2: scenarios with dates and men, right, and getting curious about 360 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 2: how you show up. Wow, I like really talked a lot, 361 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: or I didn't talk at all, or like, gosh, I 362 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: was so triggered once we said good night, all I 363 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 2: could think about was in texting or calling, right, just 364 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: noticing the stuff that comes up. I think the edict 365 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: people put on themselves is trying to avoid having any 366 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: of these things happen, and when they do, feeling guilt 367 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 2: and shame, embarrassment, judgment, self criticism as opposed to like, 368 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 2: oh so interesting, what's that about? And how do I 369 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: feel about it? And that doesn't feel good to me. 370 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: It doesn't feel good to me that I'm overvaluating if 371 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: this person is going to contact me again? For example? Right, 372 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 2: what's that about? What is it connected to? How do 373 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: I feel my body when I think about it? Are 374 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: there resources tools I can put in place to help 375 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: manage those tricky feelings when they come up? Be a 376 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 2: friends via self soothing, meditation, therapy. Right? What can I 377 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: do when I notice something is not serving me well? 378 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 2: And so that is how we mobilize a path that 379 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 2: is different is staying present and in it and close 380 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: to our feelings rather than some macro sort of edict 381 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: that we have to show up a certain or a 382 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: different way. 383 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: When is it the right time to start talking to 384 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: the new person about our ex or the bloody massacre 385 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: that was the relationship, or what happened in our relationship, 386 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: or even if we have kids, Like that's the second 387 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: I would think, the second thing you would talk to 388 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: them about, Like, you know, what's the timeline for those 389 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: kinds of things like how when do I talk about 390 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: my ex? When do I talk about my kids that 391 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: I have? 392 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one, and I'll probably be a 393 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: little more prescriptive about this. Look, I mean, before I 394 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: say what I'm going to say again, intuition, if you 395 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: know it feels right and there's a sharing and well 396 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: maybe maybe it happens and it's a respontanious way, trust 397 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: yourself if that feels right, and if you end up 398 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: regretting it. That's an example of what we were just 399 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: talking about. There's no like this is the answer. Having 400 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: said that, I think in this arena it's almost like 401 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: phi like private health information, you know what I mean? 402 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: I think about phi, right, You're not like sharing other 403 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 2: people's health information without intention, and so think of it 404 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: as kind of your private health information, right, And you 405 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: wouldn't give it to just anyone. It's a sacred part 406 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: of who you are. And it's fragile, particularly post divorce. 407 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: In the year or two afterwards, like ten years afterwards, 408 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 2: it's less so you might be able to just make 409 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: a joke about it casually to an acquaintance you just met, right, 410 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: But in those first couple of years it's really sensitive 411 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: and fragile. And treating it with care I think matters 412 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: to the healing process. There's like a gravity and a 413 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: sombreness to it that relates to that trauma. We were 414 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 2: talking about. Not using it to garner sympathy or to 415 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: fill in idle moments on a date, right, not giving 416 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: up more of yourself too soon, you know, establishing a 417 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 2: connection and a sense of who this other person is 418 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: and determining if your fragile health information is you know, 419 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 2: sort of feels right. Sharing And I was about to 420 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: use the word safe, and look, it's tricky. We've met 421 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: someone two times, five times, ten times, do we really 422 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: know for sure if they can promise like a robust 423 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: sort of period of safety. I don't know, we all 424 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: know plenty of stories where it seems to be true 425 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: and it ends up not being true. So I would 426 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: just say, proceed with care, continue to notice how do 427 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 2: I feel with this person? How do I share around them? 428 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 2: How do they seem to communicate notions around their own feelings? 429 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: What is their emotional intelligence level? Look like, right, are slow? 430 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: You know, start flow? You don't have to give the 431 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 2: whole story up. You might say that's that's a painful 432 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: period and I'm still processing it, and like, you know, 433 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 2: over time, perhaps they'll share more. Right if your body 434 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 2: is still telling you I'm ready here? And kids, I 435 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 2: think I would look at it sort of two ways. 436 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 2: I think it's factually important to sort of say like 437 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: I have a you know, a ten, eight and five 438 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: year old, and you know, the light of my lives. 439 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: I have them halftime and like huge part of who 440 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: I am and how I move through the world. No, 441 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: that's true for you. I think it's important to have 442 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: that truth be proudly conveyed and implicit in that is 443 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 2: that if you're interested in getting to know me, that's 444 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: that's part of who I am right. That's important. So 445 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: you know, read out folks that are like, I don't 446 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: want to be with someone that has kids that little, 447 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: or don't want to be with some of those three 448 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: kids versus one. Right, whatever it is, I would embody 449 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 2: that part of your identity as a mother pretty quickly 450 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: to support that part of the process in terms of 451 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: your relationship with your kids, your relationship with your ads, 452 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: how you co parent. Again, you might give like a 453 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 2: macro like it's a work in progress. It can be 454 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 2: tricky and it can be amazing and you know, perhaps 455 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: more information you know, to come in the future. Right. 456 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: I love these answers you're giving because there are things 457 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: that people can actually say and if you're listening, I 458 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: want to do this and I'm not even going through 459 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: a divorce. I want to write these sentences that these 460 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: responses down and just like have a cheat sheet in 461 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: my pocket on my day and be like one second, 462 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: let me just check. Oh yeah, it's complicated, and I'm my. 463 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: Clients do that all the time, right down the sentences. 464 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: That's that's one of the ways I love to work. Yeah, yes, 465 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,239 Speaker 2: I think it's nice to have something prepared ay and 466 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 2: to not feel pressure to share more than you were 467 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: ready and to really own and embody the truth without 468 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: sharing too much, which is like, it's tricky right now, 469 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: tricky season, and perhaps over time I'll share more, you know, 470 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: and that's it. 471 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: That's enough. 472 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: That's enough. You don't own more, and it reflects your truth. 473 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 2: They're not shying away from it. You don't have to 474 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: say you're co parenting beautifully and over the divorce if 475 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 2: you're not, and you're not. But you also don't have 476 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: to share and explain everything you can own. I'm in 477 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: the messy middle. I know it, I accept it. I'm 478 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: taking it on and like more to come. 479 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: So good. Okay, So say you have kids, right? I 480 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: love though that you should pretty early on let them 481 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: know your situation. You know, I have two kids and 482 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: two dogs or whatever, because you don't want that to 483 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: bite you in the ass if you haven't told them. 484 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and you own that. You own 485 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: it's a big part of your life if it's true. 486 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: Is with that you don't just say that but meaning 487 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 2: the latter part, but just owning I'm like an amazing 488 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: part of who I am. I'm a mom with two kids. 489 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: They're five and seven and what I got going on, 490 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: And that's it, right, that's so good. God. 491 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: How much of a say should your kids get about 492 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: you dating again? That's hard because it just I'm sure 493 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: it depends on like the age of the kids. I 494 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: know when I started dating, I had young and I 495 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: had it a sixteen year old who was very opinionated 496 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: about every move I made. 497 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: Yep. So I'm going to answer this in like gradients, 498 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: because you're right, it really depends on the age of 499 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: the kids. So if you have little kids and like 500 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: I'm defining, I'm eliminating like babies and like really small. 501 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: But you know, if you're like in the like four 502 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 2: year old, so like I don't know, like ten year old, 503 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: to the extent possible, you're not updating your children on 504 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: your dating life. There's really no need for them to know. 505 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: In my clinical opinion, I would only introduce the concept 506 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: if and when someone important came into your life and 507 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: you planned on introducing them, which is a whole other 508 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: topic we can talk about, and I have a whole 509 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: approach about what that would look like. But there if 510 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: they come to know you're out on a Thursday with 511 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: Joe for whatever reason, I would just frame it as 512 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: a friend and leave it there. There's no reason to 513 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: burden young kids with adult information unless it's relevant and important. 514 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: And your date with Joe on Thursday is not relevant 515 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: and important unless Joe becomes your person, right and you 516 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: have a much more deliberate conversation, which, as I said, 517 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: we can talk about. So I'm saying a version of like, 518 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: keep it from them. There's no reason for your little 519 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: kids to know that you're dating your older kids, who 520 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 2: might even proactively ask the question or just come to 521 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 2: know because they are conscious beings. 522 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: Right, that's been. 523 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: Going out, right. I think it's really important to have 524 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 2: a conversation with your kids, and not on the night 525 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: you're going out with Joe, Like, how do you feel 526 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 2: about this? I'm leaving in thirty minutes that like, if 527 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: they're talking about it, or it's in the atmosphere that 528 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 2: you sit down with them and go like huh, Like tricky, 529 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: You're thinking about the idea that I might start dating, 530 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: And you're right, and that has to feel like really weird, 531 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: really really weird and hard. I know it feels weird 532 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: and hard to me, so I can't imagine what it 533 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: feels like to you. I want to sit here and 534 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: tell me everything you're thinking about it. I want to 535 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: hear it and just open up a space. I mean, 536 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: if you have a kiddo who will talk, right, I'll 537 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 2: if you don't. But if you have a kid who 538 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 2: will talk, great, And I don't like it. I want 539 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: you and Daddy to get back together. I think it's 540 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: so lame. I think it's so gross. I want you 541 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: to leave me, to go out. Like all the things 542 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: that you just validate. You don't try to change their mind, 543 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: you know, try to justify it. But I'm here all 544 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 2: the time. It's just two hours you lean in. I 545 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: feel so bad, like no matter how often I'm here 546 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: with you, it just feels so bad. It feels so awful. 547 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: Of course, you wish your mom and dad were together, Like, 548 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: I get it, get it, and this is a reminder 549 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: that we're not. I get it. 550 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: So I feel so emotional because I can just like 551 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: remember all of this and I'm trying to navigate it 552 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: the best I could without these amazing tools. 553 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: Yes, it's so difficult. But for the kids, and this 554 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: is not age dependant. All they're thinking all the time, 555 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: especially at the beginning, is I just wish my mom 556 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: and dad were together. And we are a version of 557 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,239 Speaker 2: over it because we're the adults and we've thought about it, 558 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 2: and we've been ideally intentional about it, and we're working 559 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: to move through it. We have decided, or at least 560 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 2: have been told, that we're not going to be with 561 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: that person. Our kids, they have no say, and they 562 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 2: don't get to move on like we do. They don't 563 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: get to move on. It's a chronic trama that their 564 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: parents aren't together. And our parental edict is to like 565 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 2: imagine or facilitate our kids not suffering, you know, and 566 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: so we just want to see But they seem okay, 567 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: Like I'm not going to bring up that this might 568 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 2: be painful for them, because they seem fine in many ways, 569 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: they are fine and functional and thriving. But they're never 570 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: fine that their mom and dad aren't together. And it's 571 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: never not a good time to say I get it. 572 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: I know that's still on your mind, even if you're 573 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 2: ten years out. You know that you're a new person, 574 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: right that you're still I know this still might bump 575 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: up against this wound your dad. That's painful. It's never 576 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: okay from your standpoint. I get it, and so the 577 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: messaging in that moment about your date with you know, 578 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: Joe coming up, is not about the date with Joe 579 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: and trying to explain that it doesn't mean a lot. 580 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: It's I know this matters, that this is going to 581 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: start happening, and I know it matters because you're in 582 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 2: pain and I see it and I feel it and 583 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: I can't fix it. But I want you to have 584 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: a space to talk about it. I want you to 585 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 2: know that I love you, your father loves you. What 586 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: I'm about to say, if this is all true, there 587 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: are many complex scenarios where it's not. But and we 588 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 2: are still a family because we'll always be your mom 589 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 2: and dad will always co parents, and we'll always all 590 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: have that connection. Having said that, it's not the same, 591 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: and I know that's what this brings up. 592 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a pause right here. I want to 593 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: continue this conversation because there's so much more that I 594 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: have to ask you. If you want to call us 595 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: for advice one eight four four four I do pod. 596 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: That's eight four four four four three six seven six ' three, 597 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: or you can email us at idopod at iHeartRadio dot com, 598 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram and TikTok at id Part two pod, 599 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: and be sure to check out all the information in 600 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: our show notes. Make sure to rate us and review us. 601 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in 602 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: love is the main objective