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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: In mid November, Democratic Senator Mark Kelly, a retired Navy captain,

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Speaker 2: and five other Democrats, all who served in the military

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Speaker 2: or intelligence services, released a video online in which they

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Speaker 2: reminded US troops they can disobey illegal orders right now.

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Speaker 3: The threats to our constitution aren't just coming from abroad,

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Speaker 3: but from right here at home.

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Speaker 4: Our laws are clear.

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Speaker 3: You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders.

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Speaker 3: You must refuse illegal orders.

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Speaker 2: No one has to carry out orders that violate the

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Speaker 2: law or our constitution. The video garnered millions of views

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Speaker 2: and President Trump's anger on social media. He called the

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Speaker 2: lawmakers traders who should be arrested and put to death,

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Speaker 2: and the administration is not giving up on the issue.

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Speaker 2: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has issued a formal letter of

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Speaker 2: censure against Kelly, with plans to cut his military rank

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Speaker 2: and dock his pension. Kelly, who served more than twenty

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Speaker 2: five years in the Navy, including thirty nine combat missions,

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Speaker 2: said quote, I'll fight this with everything I've got. And

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Speaker 2: Monday night on Comedy Central's The Daily Show, the senator

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Speaker 2: said the fight was not just about him.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to intimidate all of us. Of course, don't

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Speaker 3: say something they don't like, and especially for members of

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Speaker 3: the military, retired members right like me, keep your mouth

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Speaker 3: shut or they're coming after you. They're going to take

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Speaker 3: away your pension. So this is much bigger than they

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Speaker 3: don't make.

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Speaker 2: My guest is Joshua Castenberg, a professor at the University

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Speaker 2: of New Mexico Law School. He was both a judge

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Speaker 2: and a prosecutor in the US Air Force. Josh in

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Speaker 2: the censure letter, heg Seth said that Kelly had directly

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Speaker 2: attacked the legitimacy of Millie Tarry leadership and the lawfulness

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Speaker 2: of their orders, but that didn't appear to be what

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Speaker 2: was said in that video. Did you find anything objectionable

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Speaker 2: in the video?

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, first of all, with a certain degree

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Speaker 1: I would say of political and legal savvy, everything that

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Speaker 1: was said within the video is legally correct. Military personnel

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Speaker 1: have a duty not to follow unlawful orders. This is

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Speaker 1: fundamentally different than explaining one's idea of what an unlawful

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Speaker 1: order is or what a lawful order is. They put

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Speaker 1: it out there as what some have characterized as rage bait.

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Speaker 1: That's not my characterization, but some have, including in the Senate.

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Speaker 1: So Mark Kelly, as a retiree is subject to recall

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Speaker 1: and court martial and the like. The UCMJ, the Uniform

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Speaker 1: of Military Justice, the governing law of the military, does

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Speaker 1: have a controversial jurisdiction over retirees, and it came into

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Speaker 1: being in eighteen sixty one during an emergency session of Congress.

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Speaker 1: It is very very rare that someone has brought back

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Speaker 1: on active duty and court martialed or discipline, and usually

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Speaker 1: only for things that occurred while they were on active

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Speaker 1: duty or things that directly affect the military, like some

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Speaker 1: retired marine selling cocaine on base to active duty marine.

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Speaker 1: So you see it like that. So this was a

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Speaker 1: highly unusual step to begin with. But what made it

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Speaker 1: more unusual is that Senator Kelly did nothing wrong, and

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Speaker 1: he's a sitting United States senator and correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong. But we have three independent branches of government,

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Speaker 1: and the reason our government was structured in the way

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Speaker 1: it was was to prevent a tyranny from occurring, such

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Speaker 1: as happened in England when Oliver Cromwell ruled Parliament with

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Speaker 1: the Army back in the seventeen hundreds, and so this

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Speaker 1: sure is a step towards that. No funny enough, the

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Speaker 1: initial threat was to actually do a court martial, and

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Speaker 1: I think the DoD Secretary of Defense Hegseth backed off

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Speaker 1: on that because the US District Court would step in

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Speaker 1: and say, no, this is unconstitutional. So then they picked

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Speaker 1: an administrative route. And what is a letter of censure? Well,

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Speaker 1: for someone who's on actual active duty, this could be

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Speaker 1: career ending. But since Captain Mark Kelly, Navy captain, which

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Speaker 1: is the equivalent of a colonel, is retired. The letter

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Speaker 1: of censure at this point, without more, is nothing more

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Speaker 1: than your third grade teacher telling you she or he's

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Speaker 1: unhappy with you that day.

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Speaker 2: Heigseth said that this is part of the process, the

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Speaker 2: letter of censure. So what happens next is Hegseth the

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Speaker 2: one to decide what the next step is? Is there

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Speaker 2: an investigation?

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Speaker 1: So what could happen? And some media pundits and Secretary

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Speaker 1: of Defense Hegseth himself has said this is that they

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Speaker 1: may pursue what's known as an officer grade reduction. What's

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Speaker 1: problematic about that is that officers cannot be reduced in

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Speaker 1: grade by a court martial. However, the Secretary of the

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Speaker 1: Navy or the Secretary of Defense can always do an

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Speaker 1: officer grade determination if it is determined that someone should

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Speaker 1: not have been promoted based on criminal or other types

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Speaker 1: of deleterious activity while on active duty or reserve or

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Speaker 1: guard duty that had the promotion board known of, they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have gotten promoted. So for example, someone cheating on

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Speaker 1: an exam if it's discovered years later, someone who'd been

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Speaker 1: court martialed, someone who committed conduct on becoming an officer,

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Speaker 1: like fraternizing with junior enlisted members, things like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've represented a major who was once to captain because

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Speaker 1: it came to light that he was engaged in sexual

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Speaker 1: conduct and activity with two enlisted women under his direct

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Speaker 1: command earlier, which is a UCUMJ violation. But generally those

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Speaker 1: officer grade reductions are thought of as things that occurred

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Speaker 1: on active duty. And Senator Mark Kelly is not on

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Speaker 1: active duty. He's a retiree, so that could create a

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Speaker 1: legal issue, but you'd have to get through the hurdle

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Speaker 1: of one what he said was technically correct, and so

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Speaker 1: there's a first Amendment and a truth defense built into that,

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Speaker 1: and he could still fight the reduction in US district

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Speaker 1: court or in the Court of Claims. And two, you know,

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Speaker 1: you really have to go back to the separation of powers.

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Speaker 1: What authority does the Secretary of Defense really have over

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Speaker 1: a sitting United States Senator? And the answer to that

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Speaker 1: is not much, and it would be unprecedented to try

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Speaker 1: to do something. My sense of what happened is a

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Speaker 1: few attorneys that the administration has actually listened to have

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Speaker 1: told him you won't survive a court martial. Here's the

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Speaker 1: things we think you could get away with, and it's

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Speaker 1: the letter of censure and probably nothing more.

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Speaker 2: There's also the Speech and Debate Clause for members of Congress.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've done an investigation into that. The Speech

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Speaker 1: and Debate Clause protects individuals who are elected to Congress

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Speaker 1: or the Senate for what they say and do on

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Speaker 1: the floor of the Senate or the House and within

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Speaker 1: the official business of the House or Senate, meaning you know,

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Speaker 1: committee work and investigations and the like. But the speech

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Speaker 1: and Debate Clause has not been held to extend as

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Speaker 1: far as what Senator Kelly and the others have done.

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Speaker 1: I suppose you could make an argument that because they're

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Speaker 1: speaking on a matter of public concern in their official

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Speaker 1: capacity elected capacities as members of the Article one branch

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Speaker 1: of the government, maybe it extends that far. But I

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Speaker 1: actually think that's the weakest of the arguments that have

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Speaker 1: been raised.

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Speaker 2: Is this move by HEG sith precedent setting. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: find anything similar when I did some research.

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Speaker 1: There has been a long, long history of retired generals

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Speaker 1: and admirals and other senior individuals you know who've spoken

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Speaker 1: on public matters. During the height of the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: decorated and heroic generals like General James Gavin, Marine Corps

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Speaker 1: General David Shupe spoke out against the Vietnam conflict and

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Speaker 1: outright accused Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon of Lyne, even

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Speaker 1: David Hackett, who Nixon wanted to go after, but John

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Speaker 1: Dean as attorney, told him, you can't do that. There

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Speaker 1: have been hundreds of veterans who served in the House,

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Speaker 1: in the Senate, and in the Article three branch of government,

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Speaker 1: you know, the federal judiciary, and as governors, many of

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Speaker 1: whom have criticized the press and other matters, and yet

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Speaker 1: no no one's ever tried. No Secretary of Defense or

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Speaker 1: service secretary has ever done this move. It's been on precedented.

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Speaker 1: They've made the front page of the New York Times

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Speaker 1: or CBS Evening News and the like, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I think about it, and I think, Gee, if Richard

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Speaker 1: Nixon did nothing to David Hackett, a retired decorated colonel

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Speaker 1: who got his start his career in World War Two

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Speaker 1: and ended it in the Vietnam conflict, then that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a barometer of where we should be. But this

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Speaker 1: administration has crossed well over that threshold.

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Speaker 2: All six of the lawmakers who appeared in that video

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Speaker 2: served in the military or the intelligence branches. Why did

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Speaker 2: they pick on Kelly in particular.

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Speaker 1: Because Kelly's the only one who's subject of the uniform

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Speaker 1: coulde of military justice. The others served in the military,

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Speaker 1: but they're not collecting a retirement, they didn't go the

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Speaker 1: full twenty years, or they served in intelligence operations but

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Speaker 1: not in the military. Well, actually, the administration has attempted

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Speaker 1: to silence them. When FBI Director Cash Ptel said, well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to investigate them for sedition. Really, I think

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Speaker 1: that that is not even close to a definition of sedition.

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Speaker 1: I think if I were in the Pentagon as a

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Speaker 1: judge advocate and someone asked me to give a legal

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Speaker 1: review on this, my legal review would read something like this.

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Speaker 1: I cannot in good conscience draft a letter of censure

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Speaker 1: to a sitting United States Senator under these conditions, because

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Speaker 1: the framers of our constitution, the whole construct of our

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Speaker 1: Republican form of government is premised on the principle that

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Speaker 1: we will have no dictatorship like Oliver Cromwell. And the

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Speaker 1: idea that we can use the military to silence a

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Speaker 1: city United States senator that we find disagreeable is so

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Speaker 1: anathetical to the constitutional values which we have in the

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Speaker 1: military that I would ask you to find someone else

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Speaker 1: to do it in my place.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's see what happens here. Hegseth said that Kelly

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Speaker 2: has thirty days to submit a response, and the process

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Speaker 2: to downgrade his retirement rank will be completed within forty

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Speaker 2: five days. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show,

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Speaker 2: thousands of federal agents have been deployed to Minneapolis, Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: Why there are no National Guard troops among them? I'm

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Speaker 2: June Grosso. When you're listening to Bloomberg. Thousands of federal

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Speaker 2: agents have been deployed to Minneapolis, Minnesota, the latest Democratic

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Speaker 2: city targeted by the Trump administration for mass deportations, following

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Speaker 2: operations in Chicago, Los Angeles, and Portland. However, unlike those cities,

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Speaker 2: the administration is not deploying National Guard troops under the

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Speaker 2: guise of high crime rates and the need to protect

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Speaker 2: federal off officials involved in immigration enforcement. In fact, President

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Speaker 2: Trump is backing off, at least for now, on his

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Speaker 2: push to deploy the National Guard, pulling troops out of

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Speaker 2: those three cities. This after legal roadblocks, including one from

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, a rare setback for Trump at the

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Speaker 2: High Court, but he warned that quote, we will come

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Speaker 2: back if crime begins to soar again. I've been talking

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Speaker 2: to Professor Joshua Castenberg of the University of New Mexico

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Speaker 2: Law School. Josh do you think the administration saw that

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Speaker 2: the legal deck was sort of stacked against them?

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Speaker 1: You know, I think they read the tea leaves, and

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Speaker 1: the tea leaves were the last Supreme Court decision not

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Speaker 1: to immediately overturn or put in abands the temporary restraining

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Speaker 1: order in regard to Chicago that the Seventh Circuit came

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Speaker 1: up with, and you know, Alito and Thomas dissented, but

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Speaker 1: you did have this decision that was issued that at

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Speaker 1: least tepidly included Cavanaugh because he had a concurrence, but

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Speaker 1: it also had Barrett in it and Chief Justice John

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Speaker 1: Roberts as well. And so I think they read the

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Speaker 1: tea leaves and pulled out the military and the hopes

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Speaker 1: that mootness, which is a fundamental principle of constitutional law,

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Speaker 1: will prevent any further review. At this time, that six.

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Speaker 2: To three decision was really one of the first times

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Speaker 2: in this second Trump administration that the Supreme Court has

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Speaker 2: stopped Trump on the emergency docket.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's the tariff issue coming up, and

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Speaker 1: that may be a pullback too, but that's a fundamentally

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Speaker 1: different issue. It's purely economic and where the power to

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Speaker 1: regulate the economy foreign economy rests.

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Speaker 2: As far as sending in troops, Trump said, we'll come back,

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Speaker 2: perhaps in a much different and stronger form. When crime

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Speaker 2: begins to soar again.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's always the threat. And I can

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Speaker 1: tell you that in talking to people who have served

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Speaker 1: in the military as well as others. The concern is

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Speaker 1: they'll be you know, there'll be a city with the

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Speaker 1: tends to vote Democrat with a higher crime rate than

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Speaker 1: the norm, and the operation will occur shortly before the

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Speaker 1: midterm elections. And if you think about cities in purple

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Speaker 1: states where voting might make a difference, could that happen

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Speaker 1: in a place like Detroit or certainly Minneapolis now particularly Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because the fiasco of Governor waltz up there may actually

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Speaker 1: give the Republicans a shot at doing well in the midterms.

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Speaker 1: And so I could see some people in the White

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Speaker 1: House thinking this is where we're going to send troops next.

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Speaker 2: Also, Trump rather recently once again seemed to be toying

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Speaker 2: with the idea of invoking the Insurrection Act.

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Speaker 1: Well, the court did leave that open, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean the White House, And this is something every listener

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Speaker 1: should understand. The White House argued there was an inherent

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Speaker 1: presidential authority to do what he did, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: cite to any direct language in the Constitution or any statutes.

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Speaker 1: There is the Insurrection Act statute, and the Insurrection Act

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Speaker 1: makes it very clear that if the laws of the

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Speaker 1: land are unenforceable, and that the Civil government cannot enforce

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Speaker 1: the law. The president can use the military as a

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Speaker 1: police force in those cities. Now, to me, that's a

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Speaker 1: very high bar. But I could see others making the

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Speaker 1: argument of, well, no, you know, there's a backlog of

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Speaker 1: cases and the local police don't have enough people to

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Speaker 1: do their job, even though they are doing their job.

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Speaker 1: And I could see that occurring too.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, what do you think the broad principle

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Speaker 2: of the Supreme Court's decision stands for?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the Supreme Court's decisions broad principle is

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Speaker 1: you don't have unfettered power, mister Trump, and you've got

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Speaker 1: to have more you know, you've got to have more

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Speaker 1: fact on your side, and you have to have a

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Speaker 1: statute that is open for you to do it. And

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Speaker 1: the insurrect Act is such a statute that.

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Speaker 2: Of course would start another round of litigation. I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: Always a pleasure to have you on, josh Thanks so much.

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Speaker 2: That's professor Joshua Castenberg of the University of New Mexico

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Speaker 2: Law School, coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show.

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Speaker 2: The judge overseeing the Nicholas Maduro prosecution is a ninety

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Speaker 2: two year old native New Yorker who's willing to take

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Speaker 2: unpopular stances, is unafraid to challenge lawyers, and has managed

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Speaker 2: to win praise from President Trump despite crossing him on issues.

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Speaker 2: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. Ousted Venezuelan

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Speaker 2: president Nicholas Maduro was defiant in his first court appearance

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Speaker 2: on federal drug trafficking charges on Monday, Attempting to tell

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Speaker 2: the story of his capture by US forces in a

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Speaker 2: stunning raid, Maduro said, quote, I am here kidnapped since

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Speaker 2: January third, Saturday. I was captured at my home in Caracas.

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Speaker 2: But before he could go further, the judge cut him off, saying,

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Speaker 2: at this point in time, I only want to know

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Speaker 2: one thing. Are you Nicholas Maduro Morros? And with that,

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Speaker 2: Manhattan Federal Judge Alvin Hellerstein showed Muduro who was in

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Speaker 2: charge in his courtroom at ninety two years old. With

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Speaker 2: thirty eight years on the bench, Judge Hellerstein has shown

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Speaker 2: an independent streak and no fear of taking unpopular positions.

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Speaker 2: Mean is Bloomberg Law report of Mike Velenski, who's written

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Speaker 2: a profile on Judge Hellerstein. Mike tell US a little

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Speaker 2: about the background of this Clinton appointee.

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Speaker 4: So Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein, he's a District Court judge

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Speaker 4: in Manhattan in the US History Court for the Southern

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Speaker 4: District of New York. He's a character there. I mean,

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Speaker 4: he's ninety two years old, he's been on the bench

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Speaker 4: about three decades. Kind of gives you the impression, you know,

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Speaker 4: he's seen it all, he's heard it all. He's one

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Speaker 4: of those judges. And in fact, he's had a pretty

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Speaker 4: incredible career as far as interesting cases, going back to

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Speaker 4: allowing the KKK to march to New York City in

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Speaker 4: the nineties, through several high profile cases involving the financial sector.

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Speaker 4: He oversaw the Charlie Javis trial, he oversaw the Bill

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Speaker 4: Wang trial, and recently has even before being handed the

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Speaker 4: Maduro case, has gotten a bunch of politically sensitive cases

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Speaker 4: involving the President Trump to.

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Speaker 2: Talk about some of those cases because he ruled against

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration in one case, and then he ruled

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Speaker 2: against Trump personally in another.

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Speaker 4: The case against the administration, which also directly involved Venezuela,

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Speaker 4: was an early effort by the administration to quickly deport

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Speaker 4: alleged Venezuelan gang members under a very old statute called

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Speaker 4: the Alien Enemies Act that the Trump administration kind of

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Speaker 4: dusted off to create these sped up deportations, and Judge

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Speaker 4: Hellerstein stopped it effectively. He issued an injunction saying that

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Speaker 4: due process was needed, they needed notice, they needed a hearing,

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Speaker 4: and that the administration was trying to kind of circumvent

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Speaker 4: the legal rules of due process.

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize that Judge Hellerstein was involved in the

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Speaker 2: Trump hush money case and in fact is still involved

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Speaker 2: in it. Tell us what happened to Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So that case is before him now. So twice the

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Speaker 4: president tried to get that case into federal court. It

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Speaker 4: was tried in Manhattan State Court by District Attorney Alvin Bragg.

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Speaker 4: But Trump has repeatedly said, you know, and his legal

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Speaker 4: team has said it belongs in federal court. It involves

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Speaker 4: issues of presidential duties, and twice Judge Hellerstein said, no,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't, and in quite blunt terms, said, you know,

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Speaker 4: paying an adult film star has nothing to do with

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Speaker 4: your role as president. This is a state case. This

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Speaker 4: belongs in state court. Interestingly, he was essentially overturned by

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Speaker 4: the US Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit recently

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Speaker 4: which said they're not taking a position on whether the

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Speaker 4: case belongs in state or federal court, but that Judge

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Speaker 4: Hellerstein didn't adequately probe whether the US Supreme Court decision

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Speaker 4: on this topic means that this case should potentially be

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Speaker 4: in federal court. So he has the case again now

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Speaker 4: with Trump and his legal team trying to get it

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Speaker 4: into federal courten Hill again rule on whether or not

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Speaker 4: it should be.

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Speaker 2: And unusual for President Trump, who often criticizes the judges

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Speaker 2: he's in front of or the administration is in front of.

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Speaker 2: He said, quote, the judge is very respected. We'll see

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Speaker 2: how we do. We're going to go through a slog

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Speaker 2: of a trial.

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Speaker 4: He's one of the few judges that come to mind

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Speaker 4: that Trump has actually said kind things about, at least

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Speaker 4: on Air Force One on Sunday. But you know it's

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Speaker 4: early days, so we will see how how that relationship

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Speaker 4: plays out.

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Speaker 2: You know, Trump mentioned a slog of a trial, and

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Speaker 2: this is going to be a long trial. So as

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Speaker 2: a senior judge, Judge Hellerstein could have refused the trial.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and he still can voluntarily give up the case

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Speaker 4: if he doesn't want it under what I understand to

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Speaker 4: be the rules of the Southern District. But he has

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Speaker 4: the case because he was already overseeing a case involving

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Speaker 4: one of Maduro's co defendants. He's already plied guilty a

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Speaker 4: former Venezuelan intelligence chief who is in the US and

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Speaker 4: pled guilty. So that was a mature of code defendant,

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Speaker 4: and from my understanding, that's how heller Scene ended up

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Speaker 4: with this case. He could voluntarily give it up, but

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Speaker 4: he's given no indications that he wishes to, And given

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Speaker 4: his history of presiding over high profile cases, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: seem like he's a judge who would be at all

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Speaker 4: intimidated by that part of it.

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Speaker 2: So it's unusual to have a ninety two year old

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Speaker 2: judge frankly does his age show in the courtroom.

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Speaker 4: Not really, No, I mean, so he seems sharp, he

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Speaker 4: seems alert. He's still from what I've seen of him

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Speaker 4: and from what I've heard mother lawyers, he's still a

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Speaker 4: sharp legal mind. Where it my show is just a

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Speaker 4: little bit of like crankiness, you know, as one lawyer.

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Speaker 4: But and as I've observed, like he'll tell a lawyer

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Speaker 4: you're being boring. You know, if a lawyer objects beyond

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Speaker 4: just you know, sustaining or over ruling, he'll say there's

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Speaker 4: nothing objectionable here. He can kind of snap. And if

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Speaker 4: you associate that kind of contankerous quality with age, perhaps

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Speaker 4: he has that. But one of the lawyers said to me,

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Speaker 4: you know, Judge Soup been on the bench that long

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Speaker 4: at some point get like that because they've they've seen

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Speaker 4: heard everything. But this is a case that even Judge

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Speaker 4: Hellerstein at ninety two has never seen or heard before,

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Speaker 4: so he will be engaged.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the crankiness may be more about having

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Speaker 2: been on the bench so long that you've seen and

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Speaker 2: heard just about everything from lawyers after almost four decades,

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Speaker 2: and you have a unique view of what's going on

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom. So Judge Hellerstein said to lawyers in

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Speaker 2: the Archa Ghost trial, the jury looks like it's bored

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Speaker 2: to tears. I think you should stick to what's important.

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Speaker 4: Please.

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Speaker 2: That actually sounds like good advice because judges are very

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Speaker 2: attuned to jurors.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he gave lawyers in that trial several tips, even

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Speaker 4: like kind of telling them how he would suggest say,

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Speaker 4: phrase questions things like that. So he has the kind

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Speaker 4: of paternal quality towards towards the younger lawyers sometimes and

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Speaker 4: maybe it can come off kurt or sharp at moments,

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Speaker 4: but he does appear to actually kind of be giving guidance,

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Speaker 4: you know, as a kind of legal sage at his age.

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Speaker 4: He does appear to be giving advice to the lawyers

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Speaker 4: at times.

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Speaker 2: You talk to the New York County Lawyers Association President

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Speaker 2: Richard Swanson, who said he's a real believer in due process.

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Speaker 2: He's not going to be swayed by politics. If anything,

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Speaker 2: Maduro should be glad he has a fair judge.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, A lot of the lawyers I spoke with, especially

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Speaker 4: lawyers and positions of leadership, feel like Judge Hellerstein will

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Speaker 4: kind of set a positive model in terms of giving

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Speaker 4: a fair shape to someone in a US court and

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Speaker 4: where it's politically, you know, so sensitive but the world

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Speaker 4: is watching. But all the lawyers I spoke with felt

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Speaker 4: like Judge Hellerstein is the right judge for that role

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Speaker 4: and that he wouldn't be impacted by by the politics

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Speaker 4: or the public profile of this case.

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Speaker 2: Maduro seemed to be defiant and trying to take control

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Speaker 2: a little bit of the courtroom, and Judge Hellerstein, when

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Speaker 2: he said I'm the president, said well, we'll get to that.

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Speaker 2: He seemed to try to keep him a check. So

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Speaker 2: does he run a tight courtroom.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he is known to run a tight courtroom. He

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Speaker 4: likes to keep things moving. I think yesterday he really

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Speaker 4: wanted to make sure that they got done only what

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Speaker 4: they needed to get done and no more is my

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Speaker 4: sense from what I've seen of that. Also, I did

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Speaker 4: speak with a sketch artist who was in the courtroom

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Speaker 4: who has done this for many years, and she was

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Speaker 4: telling me, you know, even having sketched Trump himself in court,

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Speaker 4: John Gotti, all these big players, there was still really

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Speaker 4: this sense of like history in the courtroom, and that

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Speaker 4: Maduro walked in not so much like a defendant but

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Speaker 4: like a leader of a state, and that he really

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Speaker 4: had a certain presence. And I think that Judge Hellerstein

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Speaker 4: probably wanted to make sure that this still runs the

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Speaker 4: way Cortin is supposed to. This isn't a geopolitical meeting, right,

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Speaker 4: It's a criminal case.

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Speaker 2: Maduro and his wife are potentially facing life sentences. Here

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Speaker 2: is Judge Hellerstein known for being tough at sentencing or

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Speaker 2: more lenient.

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Speaker 4: I would say somewhere down the middle. There are a

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Speaker 4: couple of cases. Charlie Javis case, so the government had

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Speaker 4: asked for twelve years, and he gave her seven, and

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Speaker 4: even told her at sentencing he said something to the

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00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 4: effect of like, you've done a bad thing, but you're

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00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 4: a good person. So he does have this seemingly empathetic

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Speaker 4: side that comes out at Sendancing sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about some of the cases earlier in his

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00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: career that helped him build his reputation as a judge.

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Speaker 4: There were a couple of cases from kind of early

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00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: in his tenure that jumped out to me. One this

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00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: case involving the KKK, where he was actually overturned. He

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00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 4: ruled that they could march wearing their masks, and this

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00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 4: was believe that Giuliani era. This was the nineties, very

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00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 4: controversial case. They were ultimately from what I read and recalled,

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00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: they were allowed to ultimately mark without mass. But it

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00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 4: just sort of showed, and I spoke to the a

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00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 4: CLU lawyer who represented them, it kind of showed a

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00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 4: willingness to uphold the rights of even the most unpopular groups.

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00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 4: That could kind of give you a sense of who

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Speaker 4: he is as a judge. There was also a couple

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00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 4: of nine to eleven cases that he oversaw. One he

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Speaker 4: rejected a very large settlement for rescue workers, even though

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Speaker 4: the rescue workers at Ground zero had agreed to the settlement.

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00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 4: He said they deserved more and made everyone go back

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Speaker 4: to the drawing board, and that was kind of controversial

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Speaker 4: at the time. And another case said he didn't have

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Speaker 4: the power to force the city to give human remains

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00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 4: back to nine to eleven families, which was a big

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00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 4: disappointment to them, but he really tried to explain that

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00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 4: exceeds the limits of his powers. So I guess what

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Speaker 4: I took from all those This is a judge who

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Speaker 4: is firm in his convictions, whether you agree with him

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Speaker 4: or not, and is going to rule the way he

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00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 4: really believes is right.

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Speaker 2: And that's just what you want from a judge. And

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00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: the Maduro case is going to be so complicated, at

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Speaker 2: least in the initial stages of the motion practice, so

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Speaker 2: you need a judge who's sharp and also one who's

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Speaker 2: not afraid to make unpopular rulings. Thanks so much, Mike.

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Speaker 2: That's Bloomberg Law reporter Mike Vilenski, And that's it for

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Speaker 2: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can

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Speaker 2: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast.

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00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at

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00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, And

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00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight

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00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and

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00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg