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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And House Republicans have voted not to

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Speaker 1: release the met Gates ethics report, surprising no one. We

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Speaker 1: have a great hill for you today the Focus Group podcast.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Longwell stops by to talk focus groups. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to Senator Chris Murphy about how Democrats can win

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Speaker 1: on economic populism.

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Speaker 2: But first the news, Somalie, the TikTok ban just got

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Speaker 2: struck down by a lower court and now it's heading

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Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court. What are you seeing here?

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Speaker 1: So they can't ban it? Or they can ban.

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Speaker 2: No, they can ban it.

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Speaker 1: And want me to do some explaining, Yes, Jesse, you

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Speaker 1: since you are the TikToker in the relationship here and

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Speaker 1: you send me tiktoks and I can't figure out how

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Speaker 1: to watch them. And I am the boomer and you

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Speaker 1: here are the zoomer. I'm the boomer, is eight months

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Speaker 1: older that you're. Yes, Yes, it's explained to us, I'm

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Speaker 1: the boomer. Yes, explain to us how the Chinese government

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Speaker 1: controls what we see on TikTok go.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Now this lower court has said that TikTok

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Speaker 2: has to sell if they want to remain in the

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Speaker 2: United States or else they will be abanned in mid January.

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Speaker 2: So what now happens is the Supreme Court decides whether

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Speaker 2: they will take up this case or not. If they do,

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Speaker 2: that buys TikTok a whole bunch of time potentially, if

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Speaker 2: their will lawyers do the right maneuvers. If they don't

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Speaker 2: take it up, which is entirely possible, TikTok will be

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Speaker 2: forced to sell. There's many, many, many rich people and

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Speaker 2: corporations salivating at the idea of buying this, including people

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Speaker 2: like mister Wonderful from Shark Tank and Microsoft.

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Speaker 1: That's more than I have ever wanted to know about TikTok.

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Speaker 1: So we'll see what happens. Hard to imagine that anything

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Speaker 1: good happens with a Trump presidency about to start, but

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Speaker 1: we will see, right, Jesse Cannon, we will see, and

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Speaker 1: TikTok will still exist for many moons to come.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Somali, two friends of ours, Noah Schuckman and a Swin.

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Speaker 2: They have a very Actually, this was the funnest article

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Speaker 2: I read all week about how Eric Adams is doing

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Speaker 2: anything we could all see, which is kissing trump sass

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Speaker 2: for a pardon.

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Speaker 1: As someone who interviewed Eric Adams this week on Morning Joe,

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Speaker 1: he's very fit. And also, yes, it seems very clear

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Speaker 1: that Eric Adams has realized that he can get pardoned.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing you have to remember

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Speaker 1: about Eric Adams and also about everyone else. Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is completely transactional. If you say on television, oh this

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. He's kind of a good guy and so handsome.

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Speaker 1: He sees it and then you he'll let you do

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Speaker 1: what you want. So like we saw this at the

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Speaker 1: deal Book conference. We saw Jeff Bezos being like, Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is going to be great. This is all going

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Speaker 1: to be great. You know, this is just trying to

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Speaker 1: manipulate him into getting what you want. Will it work?

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Speaker 1: Maybe in the short term, it'll work for Jeff Bezos.

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Speaker 1: As we all know on this podcast. We all know,

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Speaker 1: like ask Rudy Giuliani, how it works out for you?

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Speaker 1: It never works out. Well. Everything Trump touches dies. You know,

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Speaker 1: it may take a little longer now that he's going

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Speaker 1: back into the White House, but this is absolutely one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent the case. And you know, but anyway, Adams

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Speaker 1: has decided, and look, Adams is a guy with not

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Speaker 1: a lot of options, right, He's got these federal indictments.

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Speaker 1: He supposedly has more indictments coming though, who knows. He's

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Speaker 1: clearly up to no good and he really wants to

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Speaker 1: stay Mayor. So you know, he's thinking that if he

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Speaker 1: can get Trump to pardon him, he can stay in

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Speaker 1: the arena a little longer. And you know, it's not

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Speaker 1: an insane I mean, it's morally an ethically very corrupt,

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Speaker 1: but it's not an insane theory. And I think in

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Speaker 1: my work for him.

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Speaker 2: It's a funny thing because it serves both sides effectively,

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Speaker 2: as Adams wants to keep on cry big and he

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Speaker 2: wants to not go to jail and Trump be loves

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Speaker 2: when somebody gravels and kisses his ass.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because it's like I was listening

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Speaker 1: to him on the show when I'm watching him and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, he's like explaining about how these

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Speaker 1: federal indictments are twisting the law to come after him,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we've had all these conversations about like

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Speaker 1: should the law be the same for everyone. I actually

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Speaker 1: listened to this very smart New Yorker podcast that had

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Speaker 1: this lawyer. I'm not sure she's right where she was

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Speaker 1: talking about maybe it would have been better just not

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Speaker 1: to even try to prosecute Trump because it just, you know,

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Speaker 1: it had it because as the appearance of being political

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Speaker 1: in itself. Again, I don't know what the answer is.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer, but it just struck me that

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Speaker 1: what Adams is doing is he's really trying to manipulate

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Speaker 1: what is him doing illegal stuff and make it sound

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Speaker 1: political in order to appeal to Trump and make this

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Speaker 1: case that it's all the same. And you know this

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Speaker 1: is we're down this posts post truth rabbit hole.

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Speaker 2: So, Malia, you know who I want in charge of

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Speaker 2: making elector overform. It's definitely not Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: I know who you don't want to try so Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump again, Like, this guy just wants to get his

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Speaker 1: hands on elections so badly, and should we be surprised

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Speaker 1: this is what he says to Trump. Okay, so he's

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Speaker 1: in New York and he is he is accepting an award.

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Speaker 1: By the way, the idea of giving this guy awards

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Speaker 1: like that is what it is. If you want something

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Speaker 1: from Donald Trump, give him an award. He was accepting

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Speaker 1: an award from Fox Nation. The award is called Patriot

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Speaker 1: of the Year. That's Patriot of the Year award. Okay,

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Speaker 1: he is the this year. There is no patriot. Who

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Speaker 1: is a bigger patriot? Then Thrice indicted, Right, fine, you

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Speaker 1: know that guy. He's the Patriot of the Year. It

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Speaker 1: was a long island event, it was not even in Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: organized by Fox Nation. On Thursday, he accepted the award.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, this is even I'm sorry, this gets worse.

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Speaker 1: Accepted the award designed to resemble the American flag because

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Speaker 1: he is, after all, the Patriot of the year. After

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Speaker 1: a live performance of what other song could it be?

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Speaker 1: This guy's his favorite. I even didn't have any idea

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Speaker 1: who the fuck this was, but now I know, and

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Speaker 1: I wish I didn't live performance of Lee Greenwood's God

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Speaker 1: Bless the USA, and that is Donald Trump's favorite song.

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Speaker 1: If you have a phone, you should google Lee Greenwood

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Speaker 1: because he is either twenty or one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: years old. It's impossible to tell. He has had some

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Speaker 1: kind of incredible facial whatever, and he looks like he

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Speaker 1: could be twenty five or eighty.

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Speaker 2: Well, I like that, mister Trump. Did his usual speaking

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Speaker 2: ambiguously at saying nothing of We're going to do things

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Speaker 2: that have really needed for a long time.

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Speaker 1: The man murders English. But he did mention. He complained

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Speaker 1: about the California law. In California, they just passed a

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Speaker 1: law that you're not even allowed to ask a voter

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Speaker 1: for voter ida. Think of that. If you ask a

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Speaker 1: voter for their voter Ida, you're committing a crime. We're

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Speaker 1: going to get the whole country straightened out. Yeah, no

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Speaker 1: better way to get the whole country straightened out than

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Speaker 1: the stop corruption. Police are going to make sure that

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Speaker 1: all the corruption doesn't happen, and you just have to

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Speaker 1: pay them.

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Speaker 2: Somali. When I think of people who earn things in

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Speaker 2: a meritocracy, you know what I think of Donald Trump's cabinet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is nepo nepo And again, nothing wrong with nepotism.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump wants his cabinet nominees to earn their confirmations

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Speaker 1: on their own. That's how he works, right. But on Friday,

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Speaker 1: he was wanted to give an adaboy to Pete Hagsas

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Speaker 1: you'll remember Pete heggsas a weekend morning television host and

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Speaker 1: also multiple divorcee likes a couple beers. He's got the

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Speaker 1: Kavanaugh just like beer situation.

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Speaker 2: I really liked the detail of him drinking ten warm

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Speaker 2: flat beers at ten am. That was a really good story.

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Speaker 1: You know how many panels I've been on or places

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Speaker 1: I've been where people have been like repeating that thing

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Speaker 1: about him drinking all the flat beers. I have been

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Speaker 1: sober twenties at seven years. I don't think it's not bad.

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Speaker 1: Like I get it, man, like I get it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you've forgotten how bad flat war beer taste. But

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Speaker 2: as somebody who tasted at this summer, let me tell you,

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Speaker 2: I don't want it.

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Speaker 1: It does a job. Nobody is drinking for a taste here. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that is not true.

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Speaker 2: I love the taste of a Budweiser a Corona this summer.

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Speaker 1: Well that's because you're not an alcohol But the rest

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Speaker 1: of us will drink our beer. I mean we won't

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Speaker 1: because I'm sober. But flat beer not flat beer? Who cares?

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Speaker 1: But anyway, Trump is very excited that Haig Seth is

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Speaker 1: fighting back. He told an advisor beats biting like cow.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if he said fighting or fighting. He's a

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Speaker 1: fighter again. I want to point out that, from what

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Speaker 1: we understand, and again this could be reported wrong, was

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Speaker 1: not in the room, but that Donald Trump picked him

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Speaker 1: because he looked like he should be director of the

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Speaker 1: d D. Now they're saying he's not going to jump out,

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Speaker 1: that hag Set is going to make it through. We'll see.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it is still December and Trump

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Speaker 1: is not even president yet, so let's see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Sarah long While is publisher of The Bulwark and the

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Speaker 1: host of the Focus Group podcast. Welcome back to Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Longwhile.

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Speaker 3: Well being here.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I want to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: is I have so much I want to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about. Was that after this selection happened, I went

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Speaker 1: through this process of like trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: I got wrong and how my own wish casting sort

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Speaker 1: of clouded my judgment, and how, you know, just sort

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Speaker 1: of the litany of ways in which I could perhaps

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Speaker 1: like get information more clearly. I thought everyone was doing that.

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Speaker 1: It turned out that everyone was just trying to tell

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Speaker 1: each other what they had gotten wrong. I feel like

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Speaker 1: you are thoughtful, introspective in a way that not many

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Speaker 1: people are. Is there something wrong with us for being

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 3: Look, I do think that there are some real hopium

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Speaker 3: merchants out there. Yeah, And I think that because the

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Speaker 3: hopium merchants were a little more right in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: most people over listened to them in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 3: And I will say, I mean, I'm happy to do

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Speaker 3: my own sort of pundit accountability.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you have. I just remember the two

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Speaker 1: of you, and even and Tim especially was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was like, we sort of know she's better off

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Speaker 1: than he is, but it's not entirely clear to me

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Speaker 1: that either of them can win.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, going into the election, I was like, look, if

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Speaker 3: I'm using the focus groups, I could make the case

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Speaker 3: either way, because part of what happened was it was

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Speaker 3: so dismal when it was Joe Biden that we saw

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Speaker 3: this huge uptick for her, but it was never clear

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Speaker 3: whether that was going to be enough because the hole

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Speaker 3: that they were digging out of with Joe Biden, and

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Speaker 3: this is where look at people were mad when I

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Speaker 3: was like, he's got to drop out, He's got to

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Speaker 3: drop out. But I cannot tell you how much the

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Speaker 3: data going back to like twenty twenty one like after

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Speaker 3: basically Afghanistan and the Delta researchers like Joe Biden never recovered.

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Speaker 1: He was deeply unpopular.

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Speaker 3: People thought he was too old, and whether you like

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Speaker 3: that or not, it's just true. And him running and

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Speaker 3: not allowing for a robust Democratic primary that could separate

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Speaker 3: from him was I think the fatal error. And I'll

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Speaker 3: tell you, the focus groups were so different going into

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Speaker 3: twenty four than they were in twenty. Like in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: I felt sure he was going to win, and actually,

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Speaker 3: you know, Trump overperformed I think our expectations back in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty. But here's one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: also would point to as just a It wasn't a

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Speaker 3: blind spot because I knew about it, but I wasn't

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Speaker 3: quite sure what emphasis to put on it. So I

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Speaker 3: was spent a lot of time talking to Trump to

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Speaker 3: Biden voters. So people have voted for Trump and sixteen

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Speaker 3: and then Biden in twenty to see if they were

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Speaker 3: going to stick with him, And the thing was the

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Speaker 3: majority were, but we were always losing one or two people.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure we talked about that last time, because that

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Speaker 3: was like the dominant piece of evidence, was there was

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Speaker 3: always a little bit of backsliding, and so the question was,

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Speaker 3: then could Kamala Harris pick up some new people to

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Speaker 3: offset that backsliding, And that didn't happen, and in fact,

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Speaker 3: Trump picked up a bunch of sort of newish people

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Speaker 3: or low info or people are just are low propensity, right,

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Speaker 3: they don't vote in a lot of elections, or they

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Speaker 3: just turn out for presidentials. That is who he has

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Speaker 3: always dominated with. And on the election day, when I

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Speaker 3: saw how high turnout was, that used to be a

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Speaker 3: good sign for Democrats, but it's not. It was I

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Speaker 3: knew it was like, oh, no, turnout, super high. That's

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Speaker 3: better for Trump because Democrats are kind of maxing out.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: They got these college educated suburban voters in their trade,

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Speaker 3: but they're maxing out on those voters and there's only

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Speaker 3: so many of them. There are way more non college

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Speaker 3: working class voters who vote just in presidential elections. And

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Speaker 3: that's where Donald Trump and Donald Trump overperformed this time.

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Speaker 3: Any other Republican, like other Republicans aren't turning those people out,

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Speaker 3: but Donald Trump does.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, you had states like Arizona where there

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Speaker 1: were real Diego Trump voters. Oh yeah, absolutely, and in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: tammy Ball went, you know, which is wild.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but those are people who look at her and say,

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Speaker 3: or look at Diego and say, I don't know, this

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Speaker 3: person seems like a working you know that they will

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Speaker 3: be a good sort of for the working class. But

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Speaker 3: they also like Trump. Look, the guy's been a celebrity,

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Speaker 3: he's been with us for decades. People have voted for

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Speaker 3: him now many times, and so they feel slightly different

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Speaker 3: about him. He pulls in a real cross category a

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Speaker 3: voter and including you know, one of the things that's

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Speaker 3: been in that we've been doing a lot of postgame

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Speaker 3: with the focus groups. And I also want to just

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Speaker 3: say from the qualitative side, I felt like, look, I

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Speaker 3: felt like both the polling and the qualitative side sort

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Speaker 3: of told us on all guys, this could go either way.

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Speaker 3: And it's like tough sledding, Like tough sledding for the Democrats.

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Speaker 1: When I've been writing about my own accountability, what, I've

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Speaker 1: been surprised that the polls were really underestimated Trump. They

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Speaker 1: underestimated Trump in every election he's run at now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the polls just they can't model for like how

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Speaker 1: the turnout's going to be, and so when he's able

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Speaker 1: to sort of supercharge these low propensity voters. That's what

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Speaker 1: he's done every single time.

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Speaker 3: And also I do think the polling was picking up

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Speaker 3: on a lot of the things that we saw, oh,

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Speaker 3: which was like the massive slide with Hispanics, the somewhat

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Speaker 3: slide with black voters, and she was able to shore

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Speaker 3: something up. And let me just say a word about

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Speaker 3: Kamala Harris. She saved Democrats from an absolute wipeout. She

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Speaker 3: really did. Joe Biden was going to lead Democrats to

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Speaker 3: a historic wipeout, and she fought it back to a

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Speaker 3: place where now Republicans are going to have maybe a

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Speaker 3: three seat majority in the House, like they can't do

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Speaker 3: anything with a three seat majority, and they're going to

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Speaker 3: have a few seat majority in the Senate. But like

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Speaker 3: in terms of Republicans doing sort of big things together congressionally,

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Speaker 3: they probably are going to have a really tough time.

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Speaker 3: She kept it really narrow. But anyone who says, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden, you know, would have won, let me tell

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Speaker 3: you something, there's literally not one shread of evidence to

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Speaker 3: support that, not a shred. I think the only shread

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Speaker 3: of evidence there is to support is that if Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden had gotten out a lot earlier and either allowed

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Speaker 3: for a Democratic primer or given Kamala Harris more time

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Speaker 3: to sort of get better at it, to let people

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Speaker 3: know her more, that that might have made a difference.

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Speaker 3: But that's the only real difference that I think could

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Speaker 3: have been made.

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Speaker 1: I wonder a lot if some of Joe Biden's problem,

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Speaker 1: not a governing problem, but a re election problem, started

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Speaker 1: with his administration's intentionally boring doing no media, don't write.

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Speaker 3: About us thing like I wonder if that mushroomed. Well,

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Speaker 3: here's the thing Democrats going forward, if they learn one

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Speaker 3: lesson from this, people are going to sort of try

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Speaker 3: to categorize thing that I should have gone on Joe Rogan,

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Speaker 3: it was the podcast election, Okay. Sure. What it really

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Speaker 3: means is you can no longer do politics without being

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Speaker 3: very good at having a communication strategy. There is no

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Speaker 3: way that you and I weren't talking about this on

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Speaker 3: your show, because I have been beside myself for the

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Speaker 3: entire Biden administration about the fact that they are not

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Speaker 3: out there talking. I was like, look, and Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: was allows the communicator, right, he was too old, and

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Speaker 3: so he didn't have the ability to like communicate Strong'm like,

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Speaker 3: but I was like, where are all the surrogates? Where

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Speaker 3: is everybody? Else? Where's the mountain of people? Like the

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Speaker 3: way that JD. Vance and Donald Trump just went on

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Speaker 3: everything were everywhere talking to people directly, Like that allowed

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Speaker 3: the mainstream media like they can't define Donald Trump and

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Speaker 3: you can people say, you know, he did this or that.

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Speaker 3: But like if people will get to hear him directly

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Speaker 3: and they say, well, he doesn't sound like Hitler, Pamla

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Speaker 3: Harris needs to be able to be like, well, I

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Speaker 3: don't sound like somebody who can't form a sentence, right,

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Speaker 3: You've got to be there to puncture the way the

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Speaker 3: other side is trying to define you directly with voters

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Speaker 3: and so sort of the everything everywhere, all at once

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Speaker 3: strategy has to be how people communicate and they have

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Speaker 3: to be able to do it authentically. And so if

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Speaker 3: you can't walk shore footed into all kinds of spaces,

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Speaker 3: non traditional spaces, unfriendly spaces, like you can't do politics anymore.

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Speaker 3: Like you've got to be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really the issue is Like by

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Speaker 1: the time he had gotten there, that that White House

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Speaker 1: didn't really do a lot of communicating. They one offer

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Speaker 1: up either the president or the vice president very much.

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Speaker 1: And so in that vacuum, Trump was able to fill

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Speaker 1: that vacuum throughout the entire Yes.

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Speaker 3: Trump had constant counterprogramming, and he also locked up the

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Speaker 3: nomination so early, like man was he able he was

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Speaker 3: able to run a campaign early he dominated that primary.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, there was I mean, like Joe Biden took

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Speaker 3: a pass on like.

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Speaker 1: A Super Bowl interview. No I don't we do it here?

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Speaker 1: Why we do it?

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Speaker 3: But that communications problem and this is the other thing,

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Speaker 3: like you have to be able to communicate sort of

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Speaker 3: twenty four to seven, Like you can't just run a

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Speaker 3: campaign right at the end and be like, well this

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Speaker 3: is when people pay attention. You also have to be

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Speaker 3: able to say, Okay, why didn't anybody know what the

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Speaker 3: Biden administration did? Why didn't they know about Because I

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Speaker 3: get yelled at on Twitter sometimes they're like, well, Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden was a great present. Hear jblast my buddy. So

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Speaker 3: as you know, Joe Biden passed all these big legislatives.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, but nobody knows about him.

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Speaker 3: And that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: The idea that these people don't know about any stuff

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Speaker 1: that happened is in itself, you know, that ultimately is

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden's why Joe Biden.

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Speaker 3: Didn't get reelected, right, Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: It's why he was unpopular.

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Speaker 3: It's why they were able to push him out once

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Speaker 3: it became clear he was absolutely not up to the job.

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Speaker 3: But there's also a bunch of other reasons I just

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Speaker 3: want to throw out there that I hear all over

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Speaker 3: the focus groups, and some of them are things like

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Speaker 3: people didn't like the fact that there wasn't a primary,

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Speaker 3: Like the fact that it just went from Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: to Kamala Harris without sort of input rubbed a lot

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Speaker 3: of people the wrong way. The other thing is, even

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Speaker 3: though RFK was only getting you know, two or three

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Speaker 3: percent nationally, there was this cross section of voters that

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Speaker 3: I think ultimately might have been kind of determinative. I've

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Speaker 3: heard a lot of this where people are like, you know,

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Speaker 3: I voted for RFK and for Elon and for Tulsi

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Speaker 3: and like Trump last, but like, there is this red

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Speaker 3: pilled voter. It's not a Republican voter. It is a

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Speaker 3: red pilled voter who honestly probably was like kind of

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Speaker 3: a Democrat for a long time, a casual one who

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Speaker 3: was brought over by the anti establishment sort of red

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Speaker 3: pilled people that Donald Trump was surrounding himself with. He

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Speaker 3: was able to pull just enough people away from Democrats.

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Speaker 3: With those sort of people, at the end of the year,

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Speaker 3: you curve of politics. And look, this has long been

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Speaker 3: a feature of Trump where I talked to a lot

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Speaker 3: of Bernie voters who voted for Trump after voting for

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Speaker 3: Bernie in a Democratic primary, and he has just been

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Speaker 3: able to pull those voters away by being a really

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Speaker 3: unworthodox candidate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I mean, I hate it, but I think

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Speaker 1: that is absolutely correct. Democrats were the establishment party. It's

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Speaker 1: not just establishment, I think in terms of them trying

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Speaker 1: to be defenders of democracy, they got a little bit

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in kind of the defenders of the status quo.

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Speaker 1: And then also though one of the things you hear

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Speaker 1: from voters all the time, which is a shift in

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Speaker 1: voters where they now say I don't want a regular

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Speaker 1: politician like they like Trump because he's not a regular politician.

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Speaker 1: And even when Kamala Harris to them like technically sounded

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Speaker 1: good and she was, they were like, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't sound like the way they stay sound, but

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Speaker 1: they did. She did sound like a regular politician to them.

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Speaker 1: She didn't have a clear message that broke through to them.

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Speaker 1: And so that's where it was a Now now, as

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Speaker 1: a result, we're in an extremely dangerous place. What now

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Speaker 1: right now is we're going to look at four more

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Speaker 1: years of Trump. Now.

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Speaker 3: I want to say a couple things though, really quickly.

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Speaker 3: One is that Trump is going to be a lame

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Speaker 3: duck president. And I'm seeing a lot of fear from people,

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Speaker 3: a lot of pre surrender, a lot of chilling effect,

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Speaker 3: and like the and that is a thing we cannot

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Speaker 3: allow to happen, Like people are going to have to

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Speaker 3: find It's funny. I've heard that the phrase all my life.

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Speaker 3: You know, the only thing we have to fear is

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Speaker 3: fear itself. But I don't think I ever understood it

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Speaker 3: until now, watching the way people are engaging with the fear,

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Speaker 3: and the fact is like, we don't need hashtag resist,

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Speaker 3: We need like real courage and strength in this moment

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Speaker 3: to push forward. We got to find a way to organize.

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Speaker 3: And I was just talking to George Conway for the

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Speaker 3: pod and I was asking him, like, should Biden issue

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Speaker 3: blanket pardons for people like Liz Cheney or Fauci And

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Speaker 3: he said no, No, like that is that's not a

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Speaker 3: good way to use use the pardon power. But what

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Speaker 3: we should do is get on war footing, like we

434
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 3: need to raise money for we need to get make

435
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: sure people have access to lawyers, and we need to

436
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 3: fight the fight. And I personally believe that offense is

437
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: always the best defense, right, Like, they got to govern now,

438
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 3: especially with these guys. Yeah, these are a bunch of

439
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 3: ego maniacal narcissists who are going to fight with each other.

440
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 3: Like governing's hard sometimes when you're in the opposition, it

441
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 3: can be a little easier, and you just let them.

442
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 3: Let them own this. They've got to pass a budget

443
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 3: bill right out of the gate. They got to fund

444
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 3: the government. Let me tell you what, that's good luck

445
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 3: with your three vote majority though, Mike Johnson and so Democrats,

446
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 3: But Democrats should not bail them out. Look, I'm a

447
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 3: big norms values institutions person, but I also believe that

448
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,479
Speaker 3: you can play political hardball, and Democrats should and they

449
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: should not build Republicans out voters ask them to run

450
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 3: the government, so let them. I think that Democrats should

451
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 3: be thinking about what their red lines are. Where are

452
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 3: the places they should fight, and where are the places

453
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 3: they should let voters get the full experience of what

454
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 3: they've asked for.

455
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: It's true. I think that's a really good point. Blame

456
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 1: to us sort of what you think Democrats should be

457
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: focused on? Like it in my mind it's norms and institutions.

458
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: But what do you think the red line should be?

459
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 3: Well, I think it should be rule of law on elections, right,

460
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 3: like you want to make sure on the other side

461
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 3: of Trump's four years we still have free and fair elections, right.

462
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 3: We want a correction in twenty twenty six. I think

463
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 3: we can get it. You want to protect the rule

464
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: of law as best you can, because this is going

465
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 3: to be the most corrupt administration of our lifetime.

466
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: People need to.

467
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 3: Get familiar with the word cacistocracy because I'm not sure

468
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 3: the answer to this, and I don't want to be

469
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: pollyannish at all about what we might be facing. I

470
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 3: think cash Betel is a very scary thing. I think

471
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 3: Pete Heggs that's very like these are scary people, but

472
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: they're also all like dopes out to enrich themselves, and

473
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 3: so the extent to which retribution might quickly become just

474
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: a big sense of corruption and them all trying to

475
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 3: sort of get what's theirs is something I think we

476
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 3: very much could see. But I do think that Democrats

477
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 3: need to pick new leaders right, like the new next

478
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: generation has to rise up here, should define themselves in

479
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 3: opposition to what's about to happen. And I'm talking about

480
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: picking really smart people to lead the DNC. Like I'm

481
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 3: a big fan of Ben Wickler, know him personally. I

482
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 3: think he's really good strategically and we're not even I'm

483
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: not even with them on some of the policy stuff,

484
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 3: but I just think he knows what he's doing and

485
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 3: knows how to bring the factions of the Democratic Party together.

486
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of deep bench and rising stars,

487
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 3: and I hope they all start to stand up and

488
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: show an alternative Like the Republicans did this. They spent

489
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 3: the four years of the Biden administration in an opposition

490
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: that allowed people to be like, this is what the

491
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 3: opposition look like, It's who the players are. Democrats need

492
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 3: to do that too, and so leaders need to emerge now,

493
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: and I hope that they are smarter yet than just

494
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: sort of hashtag resistant that they figure out how to

495
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: really do the important stuff on guardrails, but also like

496
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 3: rethinking their communication strategy, Like you've got a few really

497
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: good communicators, but the way in which communication is going

498
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: to go down as the biggest failure of the Biden years,

499
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: and they got a correct that real fast.

500
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Communication, it's not a legislative problem, no, I.

501
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: Mean, look, Joe Biden did a bunch of good, big

502
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: bipartisan things, Like if I had to go back and

503
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: relitigate the Democrats coming out and doing HR one as

504
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 3: one of their big attempts at legislative stuff rather than

505
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 3: reigning and executive power after we had just seen that. Like,

506
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 3: I just think there's a lot of failures in twenty

507
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 3: twenty one, the biggest ones being on the Republican side

508
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 3: who refused to hold Trump accountable after the January sixth

509
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: insurrection and his attempt his refusal to engage in a

510
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: peaceful transfer power. But I also think Democrats chose a

511
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: bunch of boneheaded legislative things to do out of the

512
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: gate that were not that like sort of missed the

513
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 3: fact that we could end up in this snapback moment.

514
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 3: But look in terms of infrastructure and some of the

515
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: other things Joe Biden did, those were good bills that

516
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 3: they should have gotten credit for that they just couldn't

517
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 3: communicate to the voters about you know, is going to

518
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: get credit for it. Trump Trump's going to get the

519
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 3: benefits of all the infrastructure money as it rolls in.

520
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: If you're wanting these Republican senators and you're trying to

521
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: think of, like who are the ones who, like you

522
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: feel like have spine and might stand up for things.

523
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 3: I think Collins has been not always good, but I

524
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 3: think she's been overly maligned, and I think we're going

525
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 3: to see some good things from Rakowski and Collins. But

526
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: there's also a bunch of senators you don't know their names.

527
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: That's they are the ones that sit in the back

528
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: and like try to keep their heads down and do

529
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 3: decent things.

530
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: Mike grounds Langford too, I mean he's famous, yeah.

531
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: Langford, who's very conservative, but he's like, oh, he's an

532
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 3: institution's guy. And you're even already seeing I think there

533
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 3: was an overly defeatist attitude about Trump's nominations, and like

534
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 3: they are now quietly killing them. And so I think

535
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 3: that that is good and that you know, they don't

536
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 3: want to do it publicly. They're not you know, profiles

537
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: and courage, but they are right now putting their foot

538
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: down in some places, or at least and I even

539
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: Joni Ernst, I think when she said we had a

540
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 3: frank exchange of views with Pete Hegseth, I hope he

541
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: told her about how women shouldn't be in the military,

542
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: since she is herself a military veteran. So like I

543
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 3: just I think there are ways in which the Senate

544
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: might be a little better than what people originally thought.

545
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: No, that was my take too, and I was happy

546
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: to see it, and I wanted people to stop engaging

547
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: in that defeatist attitude and instead say, you know, this

548
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: is their job and they're expected to do it because

549
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: you know, however, if they want to do it like

550
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: total cowards, which it seems like they do, then that's

551
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: fine too. As long as they do it, that's right.

552
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: Sarah Long, Well, thank you. I was just really glad

553
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: to get to talk this through with you, so.

554
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: Thanks, love it, Thanks so much for having me.

555
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: Chris Murphy is the junior senator from Connecticut. Welcome back,

556
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: to Fast Politics. Senator Murphy Grey All, Yah, good. I mean,

557
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: all things considered, I want you to talk about this

558
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: theory that you've been working on about where Democrats should

559
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: go next.

560
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I listen. I don't think any of us have

561
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 4: the complete case yet, but I mean, my underlying premise

562
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 4: is that we got skunked, and it'd be a real

563
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: mistake for us to think that there are minor adjustments

564
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 4: that will fix our brand and try to grow our coalition.

565
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 4: You know, maybe I'm a little overly focused on the Senate,

566
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 4: but right now our ceiling is fifty two seats in

567
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 4: the Senate because we are not competitive any longer in

568
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 4: places that just a nanosecond ago we were competitive in,

569
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 4: like Ohio and Florida and Missouri and Iowa. So it

570
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 4: feels to me like we've got to do a real

571
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 4: hard assessment of why we claim to be the party

572
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 4: of poor people and working people, and working people and

573
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 4: poor people aren't voting for us. That sounds like we're

574
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 4: not listening to the people we actually represent. You know,

575
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 4: My early theory of the case is this that we

576
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 4: have become the party of the status quo. We're the

577
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 4: party that defends the establishment, and the Republican Party has

578
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 4: become the party to attack the status quo. That up

579
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: ends fifty plus years of political paradigm. And there's a

580
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: lot of different paths to once again become the true

581
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 4: progressive change party, but I would argue it starts by

582
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 4: being a real pugilistic populist party, meaning we attack power,

583
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 4: we name who has power, and we are really transparent

584
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: in the ways that we call for the elites to

585
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: lose power and for regular people to get it. That

586
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 4: means naming names, that means making people inside our coalition uncomfortable.

587
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 4: And then the second part is make that economic populism,

588
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 4: that breakup of concentrated power the tentpole of the party

589
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 4: and allow anybody in who is going to fight with

590
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 4: us to break up the monopolies, to control the tech companies,

591
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 4: to cap prescription drug prices, tax billionaires. That means, if

592
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 4: you're not lined up with us on one hundred percent

593
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 4: of our social and cultural issues as well as other

594
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 4: hot buttons like guns and climate, we're going to let

595
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 4: you in the tent. We're going to allow for some

596
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 4: disagreement and less litmus tests. That's a hard thing for

597
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: our party because we have come to apply a whole

598
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: bunch of litmus tests, and that has meant that our

599
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 4: coalition has shrunk, not expanded. It has meant that a

600
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 4: lot of kind of conservative poor people don't feel like

601
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 4: they find a home with us. So that's my early

602
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 4: analysis here. And I don't claim to have all the answers.

603
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 4: I'm not one hundred percent sure I'm right, but I

604
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: don't think we have a lot of time to sort

605
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 4: of natlegates. I think we got to fix things pretty

606
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 4: fast because the train's coming.

607
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: You know. It's so funny, because I mean, funny is

608
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: perhaps the wrong word here, but it's interesting because Jed

609
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: here writes for The Nation as very lefty, basically said

610
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: the exact same thing about this election. He said Democrats

611
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: became the status quo party when you look at the

612
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: numbers and you look at the sort of underperformance among

613
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: working people in urban areas. What Harris did was she

614
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: had a lot of policy proposals, and she actually tried

615
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: really hard to talk about a lot of implementation of

616
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: those policy proposals. So my question is, I wonder how

617
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: much of that was his inability to communicate from an

618
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: early on, Like all Trump does is communicate. He doesn't

619
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: do policy, he doesn't do anything else but communicate. Meanwhile,

620
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: Democrats just did not communicate very much despite doing a

621
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: lot of economic populism. I mean, the legislation was almost

622
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: FDR style.

623
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's a couple of things to say

624
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 4: about that. First, people want you to relate to the

625
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: way that they are feeling. They actually want you to

626
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: spend some time listening to them and talking to them

627
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 4: about the problem and the injustice. Now Trump is one

628
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 4: hundred percent diagnosed, complain about the problem, complain about the injustice.

629
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 4: He offers no solutions, and it's like really frustrating for

630
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 4: policy wonk Democrats when Trump gets away with it. But

631
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: it's because human psychology wants to be heard, and the

632
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 4: way that you know you've been heard is to listen

633
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 4: to somebody be outraged about the injustice that you're experiencing.

634
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 4: So take prescription drug prices. It's an outrage. People feel

635
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 4: it's an outrage. Democrats spend like twenty percent of our

636
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 4: time talking about the outrage, in eighty percent of our

637
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 4: time explaining the solution, which by the way, is kind

638
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 4: of a small ball adjust the market solution, a different

639
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 4: way to negotiate prices with the existing drug companies. We

640
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 4: should be shooting eighty percent of our time talking about

641
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: the problem, talking about the drug companies who are screwing Americans,

642
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 4: naming the exact CEOs, the exact companies hauling them before Congress,

643
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: and twenty percent of our time talking about the solution.

644
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 4: So we just communicate the wrong way. It doesn't match

645
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 4: up with how people actually perceive the world and think

646
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 4: about problems. And I agree with you that Harris had

647
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 4: a lot of really good policy proposals on the economy.

648
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 4: And again i'm with you, like I think this was

649
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: a hard campaign for her to whim given that she's

650
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 4: shoved into it with a really short calendar. I'm not

651
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: sure that if she did everything right, she was going

652
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: to win.

653
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to wonder, like Democrats have run two

654
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: very competent women like there is may not just be

655
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: their personalities, right, It may just be the innate misogyny

656
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: of American life.

657
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that that might be true, but I

658
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 4: don't know. That sounds to me like a little bit

659
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 4: of an invitation to not be engaged in a real

660
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 4: hard to look at our policy. I mean, you can

661
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 4: say it's misogyny and racism, and you know what, throw

662
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 4: up our hands.

663
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: Except the one thing I would say is like, it's

664
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: obviously not racism because Americans have elected a black president.

665
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: So like there's one thing that both of these. And again,

666
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to put you on this because it's

667
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: not relevant to what you're talking about. But I just

668
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: think that the fact that we can't even talk about it,

669
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: and I see it everywhere, and I just wonder why.

670
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: I don't know that there's an inability to talk about it.

671
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 4: And of course there are voters out there who are

672
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 4: unwilling to vote for a woman to be president of

673
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: the United States. There were also many young women who

674
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 4: probably showed up because there was a moment on the

675
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 4: balance It may be that the misogyny outweighs the excitement

676
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 4: factor of electing the first woman president. But I do

677
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 4: think that there's weight on both sides of the balance sheet.

678
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 4: But there's another similarity between the Harris campaign and the

679
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 4: Clinton campaign. Neither of them made the economy and populist

680
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 4: economics the centerpiece of the campaign. The centerpiece of the

681
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: Clinton campaign, and I know this because I got the

682
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 4: talking points for the last two months. Was Donald Trump's

683
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 4: recklessness and outrageousness. The tenpole of the Harris campaign was democracy.

684
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: Right.

685
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 4: That's why Liz Cheney is campaigning with her in the

686
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 4: end because in this Chaney disagrees with her on the economy,

687
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: disagrees with her on raising taxes on billionaires, but agrees

688
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 4: with their on democracy. And so there's also that similarity

689
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 4: that both of those campaigns decide that they are not

690
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 4: going to organize the campaign around attacking economic power, and

691
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 4: I just think we probably need to learn that lesson.

692
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: First talk to us about what that would look like.

693
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: So there's like the status issue, this Hofstadt or status issue.

694
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: Whereas Trump was able to somehow convince voters again that

695
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: he was a working man's candidate, right, that there was

696
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: some of that going on.

697
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 4: Sure again in a short campaign. I think it was

698
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 4: very difficult for them to try to unmask his fake populism.

699
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 4: But somebody was just in my office earlier today giving

700
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 4: me a good example of how the campaign would have

701
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 4: been different if you made economic populism and attacking corporate

702
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: power the centerpiece of the campaign. This person was saying,

703
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 4: you remember the part in the campaign where Mark Cuban,

704
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 4: who's one of her primary surrogates comes out and agrees

705
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 4: that Lena Khan to be fired. And it kind of

706
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 4: was swept under the rug right by the Harris campaign.

707
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 4: It was an opportunity to create a fight with a friend,

708
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 4: right right, right right, go after somebody that you know,

709
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 4: you consider, you know, part of your club and say no, no,

710
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 4: you're just wrong about this, Like I'm sorry, I like

711
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 4: Mark Cuban and I'm glad that he's out there campaigning

712
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 4: for me, but a hell no, I am not dismantling

713
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 4: the structure that breaks up corporate power. If you want

714
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 4: to support me, then you got to know that I'm

715
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 4: coming after the big corporations. And if you want to

716
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 4: be a part of this campaign, you better sign up

717
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 4: for kicking the shit out of the corporations that are

718
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 4: screwing regular Americans. On board, Mark, or you're not on board,

719
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 4: Like that would have been a moment, right if you

720
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 4: were organizing the campaign around the issue of attacking corporate

721
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 4: power and consolidated economic power. And again, I think they

722
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 4: ran a really good campaign. This is all in retrospect,

723
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 4: This is all like hindsight. I think they ran a

724
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 4: really good campaign. But that's an example of how that

725
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 4: campaign would look differently.

726
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: I also think like separating herself from Biden was okay too.

727
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: There were things possible to do, but it was very hard.

728
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: For a long time, I thought you shouldn't go on

729
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: places like to because of any number of reasons. But

730
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 1: now I actually believe that Democrats are giving up spaces

731
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: where they could actually win hearts and minds. Those clips

732
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: that Trump produced from Joe Rogan, like almost seventy million

733
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: people watch them, Like that is insane.

734
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is again this idea that we have litmus

735
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 4: tests right, that we're we're not looking for voters that

736
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 4: don't line up with us on all of our hot

737
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 4: button issues. We don't talk to media personalities that don't

738
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 4: line up with us on all of our issues. You

739
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 4: and I maybe talked about this. But a year and

740
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: a half ago, there was this conservative song that went

741
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 4: viral called rich Men North of Richmond, and it was

742
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 4: this singer who talked about, you know, the soul listness

743
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 4: of work and low wages and concerted corporate power. He

744
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 4: had some conservative tropes in that song about welfare queens.

745
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 4: He had at least one QAnon reference. You could tell

746
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: that this was not a guy who was like lined

747
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 4: up with all of the progressive priorities, but he clearly

748
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,479
Speaker 4: cared about the shape of the economy in the justice

749
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: of the economy. And I kind of went online and

750
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 4: was like, Hey, let's talk to this guy. Let's talk

751
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 4: to his followers, like this sounds like a group of

752
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 4: people who should be in a conversation with us. And

753
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 4: I got like shouted down online by the online left

754
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 4: who was like, no, he doesn't agree with us on everything.

755
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 4: I don't want to talk to him.

756
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: He's a racist.

757
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 4: People that listen to him a racists. They're not part

758
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 4: of our club. And so I just think we made

759
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 4: a decision to not convert, Like we made a decision

760
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 4: that if you don't agree with me right now and everything,

761
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 4: I don't want to be in a conversation with you.

762
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 4: That's not how you build a movement. You build a

763
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 4: movement not by just going and getting everybody who already

764
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 4: agrees with you, but talking to people who don't agree

765
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 4: with you and trying to get them in the tent

766
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 4: based on some area of alignment, and then once they're

767
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 4: in the tent, trying to convince them to get a

768
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 4: little bit closer to you on the things that you

769
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 4: don't agree on.

770
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: I do think one of the things that Trump did

771
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: that was really successful was he took into the tent

772
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: RFK Junior, and RFK Junior brought a lot of women,

773
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: and you know, these are largely again I don't want

774
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: to be patronizing here, but these are women who are

775
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: a little bit skeptical of a lot of the modern

776
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: medicine that I so prize as a person who lives

777
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: in the year twenty twenty four. But I mean that

778
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: was a huge group who had never had anyone ever

779
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: appeal to them, and RFK galvanized them, and then Donald

780
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 1: Trump invited them into his tent. I mean, now, morally

781
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: this is dicey, but there are certainly less moral groups.

782
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean, this group is I think they're being taken

783
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: advantage of a little bit. But I do think that

784
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: this illustrates the idea.

785
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do. I'd have to sort of think through

786
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 4: whether I agree with you as to how much of

787
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 4: a vote GET or RFK Junior was. There's a judgmentalism

788
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 4: that people attached to us that doesn't exist in Trump's world,

789
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 4: and you know, I think that that comes with kind sequences.

790
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 4: People are a little afraid to be part of our

791
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 4: coalition because they feel like if they use the wrong word,

792
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 4: they talk about gender in a nineteen ninety eight way,

793
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 4: you know, they'll be pushed at to the side of shame.

794
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 4: So I do think we've got to understand that people

795
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 4: are a little afraid sometimes to be part of our

796
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 4: coalition because they're worried that we're too judgmental about language

797
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 4: and about folks who don't agree with us universally.

798
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: So what would be the solve for that?

799
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 4: To first of all, just go to groups of people

800
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 4: that don't agree with us, to be in conversations with

801
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 4: Joe Rogan's audience. Go to church groups where there's, you know,

802
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 4: some sense of selflessness and commitment to community, where you

803
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 4: might find economic populists who want to be part of

804
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 4: our club. To nominate candidates who don't line up with

805
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 4: us on the twelve most important issues, to do important

806
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 4: things that signal that we want to be a more

807
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 4: inclusive party again.

808
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: So can we talk about that Nebraska Senate candidate?

809
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 4: Sure? I mean I wasn't deeply involved in that race.

810
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: Certainly not. It was and Democrats were not involved in it,

811
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: and he didn't run as a Democrat, but I did

812
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: interview him, and you know, he was an independent, but

813
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: it was like a purely work the campaign and he

814
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: did ultimately get crushed by the millions of dollars that

815
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: the Republicans put in for deb Fisher. But it struck

816
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: me that this was a guy who was really running

817
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: a totally worker focused campaign.

818
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 4: A worker focused campaign, a campaign that talked about economic power,

819
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 4: that talked about government playing a role to smooth out

820
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 4: the rough edges of the economy, but a campaign that

821
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 4: was really focused on that message. He ran further ahead

822
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 4: of Kamala Harris than any other Senate candidate in the country.

823
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 4: And yeah, maybe part of that is that he had

824
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 4: that independent brand, but I think a lot of it

825
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: was that he was, you know, engaging in this kind

826
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 4: of big ten populism that I think is the key

827
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 4: to winning. I don't get the sense that people who

828
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 4: maybe you know, didn't supporting us all weapons ban, or

829
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 4: were a little squishy on climate or you know, maybe

830
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 4: weren't on board with, you know, our positions on abortion

831
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 4: or gay rights. I don't think that they felt like

832
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 4: they couldn't be part of his coalition. And that's what

833
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 4: I'm gunning for and frankly, I think that had he

834
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 4: been elected, even with the votes of folks who are

835
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 4: anti choice or not on board with you know, gay rights,

836
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 4: it would have been really good to have somebody like

837
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 4: that representing Nebraska who would be then in a position

838
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 4: of power to be in a conversation with folks who

839
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 4: then might be more willing to listen to somebody somebody's

840
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 4: argument on why climate matters, on why assault weapons ban

841
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 4: isn't so scary. That's why you should be open to

842
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 4: bringing people who don't always degree with you into the coalition.

843
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time, Senator Chris Murphy.

844
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: Thanks n No Mo Execond, Jesse Cannon.

845
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 2: My junk past. One of the things that has a

846
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: lot of us going hmm is that all the Republicans

847
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: keep saying Elon won Trump the election, and we're starting

848
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: to see some details of why they're seeing that. Of

849
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: all the scummy things he did in this election, what

850
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: are you seeing here.

851
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: Elon Musk. He poured twenty million dollars into a mysterious

852
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: superpack called the RBG Pack, which launched ads, and they

853
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: were ads that were in the name of RBG. Rise

854
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: Bader Ginsburg, who she had a chance to resign when

855
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: she was under Obama when she was eighty and she'd

856
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: had cancer. She did not take it and she stayed

857
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: in She died in office and was replaced by Amy

858
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: Coney Barrett, who is a conservative now, and they were

859
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: able to overturn movieweight. So this is another way the

860
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: Conservatives love to own the Libs by delighting in the

861
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: way they have overturned, you know, just taken away things

862
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: from women, and this will be no different. That's it

863
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

864
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

865
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

866
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

867
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.