WEBVTT - The Shadow People 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.040 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:14.240 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.520 My name is Robert Lamb. Julie Douglass, my co host, 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:21.000 is on a well deserved vacation this week. So I thought, Hey, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.480 I wanted to invite the guys from Stuff They Don't 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.239 Want You To Know over and we'll talk about some 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.240 shadow people. So, hey, guys, how's it going. Hey, it's 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.520 going really well. This is Matt and I'm Ben. Uh. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.120 We are thrilled to be here, so thank you for 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.320 having us. This is uh one of the shows that 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.720 I listened to. Oh, longtime fans, first time co host, Well, 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:44.440 thank you. Well, you know this is uh, this is 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.279 weird for me because Julie's had guests on here when 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.160 I'm I've been out that this is the first time 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.159 that I've been here without Julie, so uh, you know, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.800 she's she's kind of the rock of of the show, 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.120 you know, I mean, she's she's she's holding it together 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.600 and now it's it's just me and hopefully you guys 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.640 helping to uh to keep everything from falling apart. So man, 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.800 oh yeah, well, possibly it's not just uh. The four 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.720 of us, Robert, They're very well, could be some shadow 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:18.600 people's right, what seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah, guys, Okay, I'll 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.080 roll with it. There are various takes on the on 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.080 the idea of just even a shadow, right, I mean 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.760 because obviously, um, the shadow has to do with the 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.640 with the optics around us. So there's this you know, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.920 dark person shaped figure that is always a siwhere in 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.959 our midst that the light is just right, and that 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.720 has led to various uh, supernatural interpretations over the ages. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.440 Sometimes the shadow is a separate entity. Sometimes it is. 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:47.680 It's kind of a representation of the immaterial soul. But 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.000 what when I say shadow people to you guys who 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.880 are steeped in conspiracy thinking and and uh and paranoid delusions. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.800 Not that yourselves are paranoid, but but this is your 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:03.040 meat here, what comes to your when I say shadow people? Well, uh, 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.920 if I'll take this one first man book. So uh. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.720 One thing that's funny is that we receive quite a 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:15.960 few emails or contact via Facebook and YouTube from people 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.720 who say, uh, please do an episode on shadow people. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.240 We've never actually had the chance. First things that we 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.880 think about, first things I think about at least are 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:31.040 things that audience members have reported to us, which might 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:37.520 sound typically have something like this. Somewhere in their house 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.080 or at a friend's house. They're asleep or they're dozing 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.120 on a couch and all of a sudden, uh, something 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.760 is out of the corner of their eye. And it's 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.440 sort of like you know, when you have a floater 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.320 in your eye and you're looking at the sun, and 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:54.440 you you move your eye attempting to catch this strange 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.560 and distinguishable thing, and it always lingers just on the 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.880 corner of your vision. And and you know, as you said, 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.440 one thing that's fascinating about this is that it's a 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.800 very very old idea, you know, and and it it 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.720 sort of cuts across cultures. So what I the first 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.120 thing I think of are always going to be the 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.960 strange stories that audience members have told us, either saying 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.400 I believe it's a demon or can you tell me 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:24.639 what's going on? You know. Yeah, it makes me think 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.480 about all the things that are just on the outside 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.359 of our periphery, and that can be the actual physical 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:36.320 periphery or uh you know, uh deeper metaphysical periphery, something 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.880 that we really believe is there but we can't ever 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.640 quite catch it. We can't ever quite see it or 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.680 grasp it fully. Yeah, I mean, because we're hardwired to 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.360 pick up on that stuff. I mean, that's just part 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.000 of our survival instinct. If there's something that we can't 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.720 quite see, that's kind of hanging out just at the 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.960 edge of our vision, of course, that's going to elect 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.840 some some some shock or fear, or at least it's 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.720 gonna you're you're gonna start asking questions in your head. Now, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.920 these individuals who write in about shadow people, it tends 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:08.240 to be a negative interpretation or a fearful interpretation generally. Yeah, 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.720 I haven't seen a positive man hanging out with my 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:14.280 shadow people. Last weekend it was pretty great. We played cards. 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.440 Who knows, maybe we'll get that letter via stuff to 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.960 blow your minds after this. Maybe we're giving shadow people 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:25.760 a bad name, but but yeah, in general, we we 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.400 have the people who do report that kind of stuff 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.800 or ask us about it, want to follow up to 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.960 figure out some explanation because they are fearful of it, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.240 because it's not a positive experience. Now, one version of 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.719 the the shadow person that I found when I was 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.279 poking around in some folklore books was the idea of 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.680 Mr Nobody. Mr Nobody is an English nursery spirit, never visible, 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.640 but can be glimpsed as this diminutive, transient shadow. And 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.520 so when something goes wrong in the house, something's broken, 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.560 something's out of place, somebody didn't put their underwear back 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.479 in the drawer, more than you blame Mr Nobody, which 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.200 is you know what, it's a it's a you know, 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.800 nur free book. So it's it's it's it's silly. Nobody's 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.080 particularly taking Mr Nobody seriously, but it does have tinges 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.320 of that, that idea of the of the shadow lurking 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.320 at the edge of your perception. And then what is 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.800 it up to? Probably nothing good. At least now we 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.120 know where South Park got the underwear gnomes idea from 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.920 Mr Nobody. Yeah, we've I'm glad we figured that out. 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.960 I'm glad we we did that today. Another one I 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.479 found that I was really excited to talk to you 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:36.479 guys about um a tulpa from Tibetan mysticism. Pretty much 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.839 just a thought form right created by pure will. Uh, 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.159 this idea amongst people who have a belief for a 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.240 conspiratorial belief, I mean or paranormal belief in shadow people. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.840 The idea of a tulpa frequently pops up for Stephen 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.440 King fans in the audience. In the novel It, the 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:02.560 primary villain is heavily applied to be something like a 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.520 talpa um. So the way that atalpa works is that 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:11.240 ultimately it is the product of the person observing it right, 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.800 which has all sorts of interesting correlations in the in 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.480 an age where we have access to more modern interpretations, 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.880 a better understanding of psychology and physics and biology. But 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.400 it's it's fascinating to think that this belief in some 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:32.600 kind of boogeyman that we create due to our thoughts 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.120 could could dovetail so nicely that's the best thing I 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.480 can find. Yeah, I remember correctly with the tulpa. It's 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.800 it's really it's deeped in this idea that that if 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.440 we believe in something, and we believe in it hard enough, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.760 we can actually bring this manifestation, this entity, out of 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.200 the thought world, out of the dream world, into the 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.520 real world um, which has some interesting connotations with some 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.320 stuff we're going to discuss later. But I can definitely 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.359 see where if if there are sort of shats to 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.560 perceive in the corners of our perception, and if you 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.040 are trying to drag something out of the immaterial, out 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.000 of the world of dream and thought that you might 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.640 easily pick up on those things because you're not only 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.880 susceptible to these shadows, but you're you're seeking them out right. 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:21.640 I'm glad you said that, because in our experience, one 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.960 thing that is very, very different is that typically people 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.000 who believe that share the shadow people phenomenon is paranormal 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:36.960 also think it's different to a ghostly phenomenon. It's somehow 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:43.080 a non human entity called forth froom somewhere often, whereas 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.920 you know a ghost would be in in this context, 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.400 the ghost would be different. Um, but perhaps the same 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.960 phenomenon produced them. I don't know, is a ghost that 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.520 told That's interesting you say that, man, because I was. 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.000 I was trolling through the above top secret forums trying 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.400 to find store reads of people who claimed to have 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.720 seen shadow people, and I did notice that most of 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.720 them were ascribing it to some other type of being. 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.200 A lot of it was an angel or a demon 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.559 usually um, but yet I also got aliens, like people 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.040 really thought they might be aliens or time travelers. Yeah, 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.520 well it's I mean It's interesting you mentioned angels and 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.080 aliens as well, because it does seem like one of 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.040 the things that really separates a ghost from from those 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.600 other entities is that to it with a ghost, we 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.680 apply it personhood, even like specific personhood, like that is 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.600 Grandpa Rosenberg, or that's that's just the dude who might 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.880 have lived in this house a few generations ago. But 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.280 an alien is just I mean, they're all alien stuff. 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:45.040 We don't really know these these guys and gals. Likewise, angels, yes, 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.880 you do have specific angels in in your religion and mythologies, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.880 but for the most part, we don't really we don't 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.760 get to know them. They're unknowable beings and the shadow 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.080 of people, the shades or whatever we want to call them, 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.880 that that we worry about in the edge of our perception. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.560 They too, don't have a face, they don't have a 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.800 they don't have a persona. They're just something dark and 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:11.000 mysterious that has some sort of human esque shape to it. Right. Yeah. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.520 One thing to add to the idea of angels and 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.800 demons also would be the idea of gin in Islam. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.760 So ah, yeah, they were and I remember correctly the 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:25.240 gin our creations of fire, whereas humans are creations of 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.439 dust I believe, yeah, and I think angels are light 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:35.560 and general smokeless fire. Um. But this this concept when 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.480 one thing that's really interesting here is that what we're 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:46.560 finding is a million interpretations. I'm being hyperbolic, but a 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:51.120 bunch of interpretations at the very least of uh, something 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.240 that could be could be the same thing, or at 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.240 least has a quite a few similarities. Right. We have 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.360 all these different scripts we can turn who to try 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.480 and understand what the what these shadows are. And today 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.640 we have even more scripts to turn to because we 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.000 have a lot of a lot of shadows and shadow 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.960 people in our in our pop culture, in our fiction. 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.800 I mean, Game of Thrones just started up, and of 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.840 course I'm not gonna give any spoilers for people catching up, 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:21.280 but a shadow entity plays into a very important plot 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.480 point in one of the previous seasons. Uh. You see 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.560 shadow creatures all over Dungeons and Dragons. I think that 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.640 was probably my first exposure to this, uh, and I 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:32.040 was trying to look him up again. It seems like 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.440 the the original shadow has kind of changed into various 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.880 other shadowy monsters in the Dungeons and dragons. What is 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.199 that they phased it out of the monster manual. Man. Yeah, 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.080 like I was finding I think at night Stalker or 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.800 something that effect kept showing up. Um, how about some dementors. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.600 I know it's not exactly the same thing, but the 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.040 I guess the image of a dementer from J. K. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.800 Rowlings World reminding me of these guys. And I'll tell 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.880 you another pop culture reference that I had completely forgotten about. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.160 A little movie called Ghost Most Most Mostly we remember 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.520 this for it's awesome pottery scenes, but there was a 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.200 whole plot element to where these shadow creatures would come 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:15.679 and drag ghosts away into the nether darkness. Yeah, I 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.480 completely forgotten it. There was anything um, quote unquote cool 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.760 going on in Ghosts, you know. Yeah, everybody only remembers 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.000 that pottery scene. Uh, Robert, I don't know what else 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:28.480 is going to happen in this show, but I want 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.680 to personally thank you for making Redeeming Ghost for me. 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:36.319 Well you're welcome. All right, Well we're gonna take a 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.319 quick breaking when we come back. We're going to get 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.160 into the science of shadow people. Yes, the science of 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.800 what is actually going on when you perceive some sort 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:54.520 of shadowy monstrosity creeping out at the edge of your reality. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.000 All right, we're back now. You guys deal with paranormal 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.240 experience a lot on your show. Now for for for 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.800 new listeners, for people who maybe aren't it's familiar with 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.520 uh stuff they don't want you to know. Um. Where 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:12.360 do you guys stand when it comes to skepticism when 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.920 it comes to scientific explanations of perceived paranormal events and 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.840 the the magic and mystery of paranormal events? Okay? For me, 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.640 it's all about the want to believe. Uh. I currently 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.560 don't believe in much of it personally, However, I have 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.319 a deep desire to not only understand, but to explore 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.480 those outer reaches. Like we're talking about earlier, UM, for 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.120 paranormal experience, if we're talking about shadow people, I think 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.800 as we will find very shortly that we can explain 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.000 much of the phenomena. UM. If we go a little 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.440 deeper towards alien abductions and some of that stuff, I 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.720 tend to lean a little bit more towards the possibilities 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.760 of it being true. Um, but I would say two 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:08.880 out of ten. Okay, that's fair. Yes, So Matt and 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:15.280 I often have similar conversations like this. When it comes 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:20.480 to the paranormal specifically, it's very important, I think, to 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:25.560 remember that human understanding is a in a continual state 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:30.679 of progress, and many of the things that once upon 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:37.560 a time were miracles or curses later became, um, something 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.960 that we could understand through our current framework of science. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.960 I don't think that makes any of those things any 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:49.760 less terrifying or any more amazing, because um, you know, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.640 it's it's all kind of uh, it's it's all kind 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.840 of like a magic trick, or or learning the the 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:01.840 behind the scenes of someone writing your face rich story. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:07.680 Is Is it possible that we will run into phenomena 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:12.680 that can just never be explained. It's possible. I hope 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.559 it doesn't happen. But when we when we look at 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:21.360 things that are on the fringes of mainstream science or 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:28.240 orthodox understanding, we do find things that have no no 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.720 physical or quantifiable proof. And those things would be experiences 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.960 or anecdotes about ghosts, or you know, the the idea 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:43.440 of alien visitation, which is um mathematically staggering just given 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.000 the scale of time and space. But then we also 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:51.840 find things that I think are magical regardless of it, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.200 and I don't mean magical in a sweet Disney way. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:59.800 I mean freaky man like. The idea of of quantum entanglement, 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:07.600 uh should make everyone really, really really weirded out. No 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.360 matter what you're doing. If you're eating a sandwich right now, 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.240 think about how that sandwich might be entangled with something 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.520 later in the universe, carefully consider your condiments. You know, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:20.720 there was there was a guy in New York that 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.720 for a while, maybe still doing it, who was offering 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.440 quantum entanglement marriage ceremonies. Well, and I forget the exact 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.720 way the specifics of how this worked, but you know, 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.520 two people would would enter and he would somehow quantumly 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.200 entangle the two of you so that, you know, no 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.440 matter where you go in this universe, there would there 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.440 would be that bond between you, a quantum bond. Do 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.640 you think it has any effect on there are other 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:48.360 multiplicities of them that exist in the other multiverses. You know. 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.360 I don't know how it affects quantum divorce rights either. Yeah, 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.480 I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can pay extra 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.160 right for service there. But but yeah, so that's that's 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.760 that's the point is that typically I think there's often 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:06.200 a false dichotomy um in in some realms of the 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:11.280 conspiracy world, between a conspiracy theorists and a skeptic, because really, 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.400 what we should only be talking about this critical thinking. 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.120 And the fact of the matter is, with the vast 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:23.960 majority of paranormal phenomenon, the stuff that the stuff that 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:29.440 has been closely examined has often been explained, just not 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.040 in a way that is perhaps as exciting or as 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.240 sexy as some people would want it to be. But 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.600 I don't think that makes it any less amazing, and 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:42.400 I don't think that means that we should stop investigating. Yes, indeed, 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.800 and uh. And one of the things too, that I 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.040 think is important to point out about paranormal experience is 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:49.920 that you know, we can we can sit around all 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.320 day and say, all right, well, you know, mathematically, alien 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.480 abductions are not occurring, or the likelihood of a ghost 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.880 existing an angel existing theories existing, though you know, we 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.440 and we can call that hogwash all day. But but 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.639 but ultimately, a paranormal experience is real. People do experience 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.880 something that they cannot explain, and in lieu of an 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:15.560 actual explanation, they end up applying other explanations to it. 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:20.880 They draw from existing scripts of folklore, existing scripts of 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.600 of religion, existing scripts of science fiction pop culture. Those 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.879 end up being, uh, the buckets we turn to to 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:30.959 try and explain things that happened to us that do 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.280 not match up with our normal procept perception of reality, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.760 or are our normal experience of life. Yeah. That you know, 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.720 when you say that, that makes me anything one of 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:41.879 the one of the perfect, and I don't want to 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.119 derail us here, but one of the perfect. Examples of 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:50.880 that would be some of the hallucinations that people take 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.399 on spiritual journeys, especially given that that is such a 0:17:55.400 --> 0:18:01.480 a long standing tradition across so many cultures. Uh. One 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.120 thing that we have always found, we being the human 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:11.360 race entire, is that those experiences, UM, regardless of how 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:16.160 somebody might examine neurochemistry or attempt to you know, quote 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.640 unquote debunk the nature of whatever that spirit journey is. Uh, 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:24.800 these people do have legitimate and valid experiences. And I 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.960 really appreciate UM you pointing that out, because Matt and 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.240 I go out of our way to um be as 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.440 respectful to people who genuinely have had an experience as 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.960 we can. You know, we don't we don't want to ever, 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:48.320 you know, purposefully irritate or ever. Uh, I guess, denigrate 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:53.480 somebody for telling us honestly about something that they experienced. 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.040 We might not agree on the causes, but also we 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:05.159 weren't there. So yeah, anecdotal evidences, it's it is easily discounted. Um, 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.680 But like you said, it's it's real or something happened. Now, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.639 one example of certainly paranormal experience, I mean right here 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.480 in the room. Uh no, our normal producer is is 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.400 that on vacation as well, or something like vacation. I'm 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.960 not sure. I'm not getting into his business, but in 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.959 his place, candlers here and and Candler's just telling us 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.399 about paranormal experiences that he has encountered. And by this, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.480 I mean he does see shadow people when he's sleep deprived, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:37.800 and he has experienced, um, sleep paralysis. Um. So just 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.480 to refresh a sleep paralysis is all about what does 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.439 what does our body do when we're dreaming. Ultimately, the 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.160 idea is that when the when the body shuts down 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.880 for sleep, it's got the muscles are going on kind 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.080 of a lockdown. Because in your dream you may be 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.640 having a karate battle with a dragon, but you don't 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.520 need your limbs to be having that same battle, because 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.520 you know, you may have the dogs or cats or 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.760 humans laying around you sleeping. You may have lamps that 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.000 you don't want destroyed and windows you don't want to 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.800 plunge through. So sleep paralysis is just the locking down 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.640 of the muscles. Is there to keep things from getting crazy. However, 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.919 sometimes things get out of sync a bit and uh, 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.520 and in sleep proalysis, what happens is that the is 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:22.840 that you wake up. The conscious mind is waking up 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.439 from from slumber and from dream, but the body is 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:31.000 not unlocked yet, So you're waking up into a locked body, 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.400 and you're you're not completely awake either as well. We'll 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.600 discussing a bit. These phases of moving into and out 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:42.439 of sleep are the perfect zones to see things that 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:48.040 are not there, or apply non rational explanations for things 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.280 that are there. Exactly, You've you've been having some pretty 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.240 crazy hallucinations for the past few hours. If you're experiencing 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.520 sleep paralysis, you're in a completely another world. You're, like 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.199 you said, perhaps let's let's use the dragons example. So 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.199 you've been fighting a dragon. You wake up, you're in 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.520 your bed, but you can't move it all, and you're 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.160 still seeing like at least a shadow of this dragon 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.880 form that is still trying to attack you while your 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.320 body is not functioning. If you if you don't know 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.359 what sleep paralysis is, this is the most terrifying moment 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.959 in your entire life. And it just made me think 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.679 about all of the people that experienced this before we 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:35.000 had the the tool of science and had to be 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.440 able to look at this and figure out exactly what 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.359 it is. And there were several something that you had 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.880 written about before in your Monsters of the Week. Were 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.920 several The first one was nightmares about this? Uh, can 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.080 you explain that just slightly? Oh? Yeah, I mean the 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.199 nightmare the night mara. It's an idea that you just 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.439 see in culture after culture after culture, and it's the 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.919 idea that you're waking up and there's some oppressive force 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.879 pressing down on you that you know, just either setting 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:04.600 on your chest or just just an oppressive force that's 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:07.560 keeping you from moving and uh, and and you just 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.159 see it again in culture after culture after culture, different 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.520 different explanations, slightly different different shades of what exactly the 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.480 the entity is, but it's it's everywhere and a lot 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.040 of people who experience sleep paralysis. Fine, see this thing, 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:24.440 it's been called the intruder um, it's been called a 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:28.920 succubus or an incubus, but they have very specific things 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:30.640 that they do. If if it's going to be named 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.919 incubus or succubus. But you wrote in your one of 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:37.440 your articles or the blog post about how these creatures 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:41.639 are mimics, and uh, it made me think about what 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:45.440 we're about to go into the science at least from 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.719 this one study that we looked at about how these 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:54.800 things are almost a a mimic of ourselves or a 0:22:55.040 --> 0:23:01.959 version of ourselves. Yes, not mimicry, Robert, mimicry I Okay, 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.960 So clearly Matt and I are big fans of the show. Uh. 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.760 One of the one of the things that we find 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:11.679 fascinating about human experience in general, or the way human 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.600 beings participate in the outside world, is that the our 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:22.080 entire species has this compulsion to to classify, to anthropomorphize, 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:26.280 to make um, to make a coherent picture from the 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:30.000 raw shack blot, you know. So it's it's strange to 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:34.399 me when we hear when we hear stories of people 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:41.040 saying you know, I saw this mysterious figure, and it's always, 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.760 you know, humanoid, or at the very least it's always 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.720 in some cultures it's a it's a specific shade of 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.919 an animal or something, but it's always a common animal too. 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.040 Um And I think it's interesting because it says a 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:58.439 lot about the way our brains deliver this sort of 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:01.840 sensory information to us. Now, just a touch base again 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.720 on on sleep paralysis. Researchers are not sure why exactly 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:08.960 normal paralysis happens during conscience for victims of sleep proalysis, 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:11.880 but the studies have confirmed that the attacks are particularly 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.000 likely to occur the person enters r e M sleep 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.280 quickly after hitting the pillow, bypassing the stages of non 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:22.159 rim sleep that usually happen first. So some of the 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:24.920 factors that are often involved here are drifting off while 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.520 lying on your back, if you're feeling stressed, if you're 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.959