1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. Julie Douglass, my co host, 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: is on a well deserved vacation this week. So I thought, Hey, 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to invite the guys from Stuff They Don't 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: Want You To Know over and we'll talk about some 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: shadow people. So, hey, guys, how's it going. Hey, it's 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: going really well. This is Matt and I'm Ben. Uh. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: We are thrilled to be here, so thank you for 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: having us. This is uh one of the shows that 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: I listened to. Oh, longtime fans, first time co host, Well, 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: thank you. Well, you know this is uh, this is 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: weird for me because Julie's had guests on here when 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: I'm I've been out that this is the first time 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: that I've been here without Julie, so uh, you know, 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: she's she's kind of the rock of of the show, 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, she's she's she's holding it together 18 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: and now it's it's just me and hopefully you guys 19 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: helping to uh to keep everything from falling apart. So man, 20 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: oh yeah, well, possibly it's not just uh. The four 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: of us, Robert, They're very well, could be some shadow 22 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: people's right, what seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah, guys, Okay, I'll 23 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: roll with it. There are various takes on the on 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: the idea of just even a shadow, right, I mean 25 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: because obviously, um, the shadow has to do with the 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: with the optics around us. So there's this you know, 27 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: dark person shaped figure that is always a siwhere in 28 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: our midst that the light is just right, and that 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: has led to various uh, supernatural interpretations over the ages. 30 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes the shadow is a separate entity. Sometimes it is. 31 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: It's kind of a representation of the immaterial soul. But 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: what when I say shadow people to you guys who 33 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: are steeped in conspiracy thinking and and uh and paranoid delusions. 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: Not that yourselves are paranoid, but but this is your 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: meat here, what comes to your when I say shadow people? Well, uh, 36 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: if I'll take this one first man book. So uh. 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: One thing that's funny is that we receive quite a 38 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: few emails or contact via Facebook and YouTube from people 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: who say, uh, please do an episode on shadow people. 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: We've never actually had the chance. First things that we 41 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: think about, first things I think about at least are 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: things that audience members have reported to us, which might 43 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: sound typically have something like this. Somewhere in their house 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: or at a friend's house. They're asleep or they're dozing 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: on a couch and all of a sudden, uh, something 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: is out of the corner of their eye. And it's 47 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: sort of like you know, when you have a floater 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: in your eye and you're looking at the sun, and 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: you you move your eye attempting to catch this strange 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: and distinguishable thing, and it always lingers just on the 51 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: corner of your vision. And and you know, as you said, 52 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: one thing that's fascinating about this is that it's a 53 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: very very old idea, you know, and and it it 54 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: sort of cuts across cultures. So what I the first 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: thing I think of are always going to be the 56 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: strange stories that audience members have told us, either saying 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: I believe it's a demon or can you tell me 58 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: what's going on? You know. Yeah, it makes me think 59 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: about all the things that are just on the outside 60 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: of our periphery, and that can be the actual physical 61 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: periphery or uh you know, uh deeper metaphysical periphery, something 62 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: that we really believe is there but we can't ever 63 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: quite catch it. We can't ever quite see it or 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: grasp it fully. Yeah, I mean, because we're hardwired to 65 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: pick up on that stuff. I mean, that's just part 66 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: of our survival instinct. If there's something that we can't 67 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: quite see, that's kind of hanging out just at the 68 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: edge of our vision, of course, that's going to elect 69 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: some some some shock or fear, or at least it's 70 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: gonna you're you're gonna start asking questions in your head. Now, 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: these individuals who write in about shadow people, it tends 72 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: to be a negative interpretation or a fearful interpretation generally. Yeah, 73 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: I haven't seen a positive man hanging out with my 74 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: shadow people. Last weekend it was pretty great. We played cards. 75 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: Who knows, maybe we'll get that letter via stuff to 76 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: blow your minds after this. Maybe we're giving shadow people 77 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: a bad name, but but yeah, in general, we we 78 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: have the people who do report that kind of stuff 79 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: or ask us about it, want to follow up to 80 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: figure out some explanation because they are fearful of it, 81 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: because it's not a positive experience. Now, one version of 82 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: the the shadow person that I found when I was 83 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: poking around in some folklore books was the idea of 84 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: Mr Nobody. Mr Nobody is an English nursery spirit, never visible, 85 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: but can be glimpsed as this diminutive, transient shadow. And 86 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: so when something goes wrong in the house, something's broken, 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: something's out of place, somebody didn't put their underwear back 88 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: in the drawer, more than you blame Mr Nobody, which 89 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: is you know what, it's a it's a you know, 90 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: nur free book. So it's it's it's it's silly. Nobody's 91 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: particularly taking Mr Nobody seriously, but it does have tinges 92 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: of that, that idea of the of the shadow lurking 93 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: at the edge of your perception. And then what is 94 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: it up to? Probably nothing good. At least now we 95 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: know where South Park got the underwear gnomes idea from 96 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: Mr Nobody. Yeah, we've I'm glad we figured that out. 97 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm glad we we did that today. Another one I 98 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: found that I was really excited to talk to you 99 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: guys about um a tulpa from Tibetan mysticism. Pretty much 100 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: just a thought form right created by pure will. Uh, 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: this idea amongst people who have a belief for a 102 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: conspiratorial belief, I mean or paranormal belief in shadow people. 103 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: The idea of a tulpa frequently pops up for Stephen 104 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: King fans in the audience. In the novel It, the 105 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: primary villain is heavily applied to be something like a 106 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: talpa um. So the way that atalpa works is that 107 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: ultimately it is the product of the person observing it right, 108 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: which has all sorts of interesting correlations in the in 109 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: an age where we have access to more modern interpretations, 110 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: a better understanding of psychology and physics and biology. But 111 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating to think that this belief in some 112 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: kind of boogeyman that we create due to our thoughts 113 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: could could dovetail so nicely that's the best thing I 114 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: can find. Yeah, I remember correctly with the tulpa. It's 115 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: it's really it's deeped in this idea that that if 116 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: we believe in something, and we believe in it hard enough, 117 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: we can actually bring this manifestation, this entity, out of 118 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: the thought world, out of the dream world, into the 119 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: real world um, which has some interesting connotations with some 120 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: stuff we're going to discuss later. But I can definitely 121 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: see where if if there are sort of shats to 122 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: perceive in the corners of our perception, and if you 123 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: are trying to drag something out of the immaterial, out 124 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: of the world of dream and thought that you might 125 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: easily pick up on those things because you're not only 126 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: susceptible to these shadows, but you're you're seeking them out right. 127 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because in our experience, one 128 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: thing that is very, very different is that typically people 129 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: who believe that share the shadow people phenomenon is paranormal 130 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: also think it's different to a ghostly phenomenon. It's somehow 131 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: a non human entity called forth froom somewhere often, whereas 132 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: you know a ghost would be in in this context, 133 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: the ghost would be different. Um, but perhaps the same 134 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: phenomenon produced them. I don't know, is a ghost that 135 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: told That's interesting you say that, man, because I was. 136 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: I was trolling through the above top secret forums trying 137 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: to find store reads of people who claimed to have 138 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: seen shadow people, and I did notice that most of 139 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: them were ascribing it to some other type of being. 140 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: A lot of it was an angel or a demon 141 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 1: usually um, but yet I also got aliens, like people 142 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: really thought they might be aliens or time travelers. Yeah, 143 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: well it's I mean It's interesting you mentioned angels and 144 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: aliens as well, because it does seem like one of 145 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: the things that really separates a ghost from from those 146 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: other entities is that to it with a ghost, we 147 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: apply it personhood, even like specific personhood, like that is 148 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: Grandpa Rosenberg, or that's that's just the dude who might 149 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: have lived in this house a few generations ago. But 150 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: an alien is just I mean, they're all alien stuff. 151 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: We don't really know these these guys and gals. Likewise, angels, yes, 152 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: you do have specific angels in in your religion and mythologies, 153 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: but for the most part, we don't really we don't 154 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: get to know them. They're unknowable beings and the shadow 155 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: of people, the shades or whatever we want to call them, 156 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: that that we worry about in the edge of our perception. 157 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: They too, don't have a face, they don't have a 158 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: they don't have a persona. They're just something dark and 159 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: mysterious that has some sort of human esque shape to it. Right. Yeah. 160 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: One thing to add to the idea of angels and 161 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: demons also would be the idea of gin in Islam. 162 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: So ah, yeah, they were and I remember correctly the 163 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: gin our creations of fire, whereas humans are creations of 164 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: dust I believe, yeah, and I think angels are light 165 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: and general smokeless fire. Um. But this this concept when 166 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: one thing that's really interesting here is that what we're 167 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: finding is a million interpretations. I'm being hyperbolic, but a 168 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: bunch of interpretations at the very least of uh, something 169 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: that could be could be the same thing, or at 170 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: least has a quite a few similarities. Right. We have 171 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: all these different scripts we can turn who to try 172 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: and understand what the what these shadows are. And today 173 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: we have even more scripts to turn to because we 174 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: have a lot of a lot of shadows and shadow 175 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: people in our in our pop culture, in our fiction. 176 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: I mean, Game of Thrones just started up, and of 177 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: course I'm not gonna give any spoilers for people catching up, 178 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: but a shadow entity plays into a very important plot 179 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: point in one of the previous seasons. Uh. You see 180 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: shadow creatures all over Dungeons and Dragons. I think that 181 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: was probably my first exposure to this, uh, and I 182 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: was trying to look him up again. It seems like 183 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: the the original shadow has kind of changed into various 184 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: other shadowy monsters in the Dungeons and dragons. What is 185 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: that they phased it out of the monster manual. Man. Yeah, 186 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: like I was finding I think at night Stalker or 187 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: something that effect kept showing up. Um, how about some dementors. 188 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: I know it's not exactly the same thing, but the 189 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: I guess the image of a dementer from J. K. 190 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: Rowlings World reminding me of these guys. And I'll tell 191 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: you another pop culture reference that I had completely forgotten about. 192 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: A little movie called Ghost Most Most Mostly we remember 193 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: this for it's awesome pottery scenes, but there was a 194 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: whole plot element to where these shadow creatures would come 195 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: and drag ghosts away into the nether darkness. Yeah, I 196 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: completely forgotten it. There was anything um, quote unquote cool 197 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: going on in Ghosts, you know. Yeah, everybody only remembers 198 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: that pottery scene. Uh, Robert, I don't know what else 199 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: is going to happen in this show, but I want 200 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: to personally thank you for making Redeeming Ghost for me. 201 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: Well you're welcome. All right, Well we're gonna take a 202 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: quick breaking when we come back. We're going to get 203 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: into the science of shadow people. Yes, the science of 204 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: what is actually going on when you perceive some sort 205 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: of shadowy monstrosity creeping out at the edge of your reality. 206 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: All right, we're back now. You guys deal with paranormal 207 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: experience a lot on your show. Now for for for 208 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: new listeners, for people who maybe aren't it's familiar with 209 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: uh stuff they don't want you to know. Um. Where 210 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: do you guys stand when it comes to skepticism when 211 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: it comes to scientific explanations of perceived paranormal events and 212 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: the the magic and mystery of paranormal events? Okay? For me, 213 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: it's all about the want to believe. Uh. I currently 214 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: don't believe in much of it personally, However, I have 215 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: a deep desire to not only understand, but to explore 216 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: those outer reaches. Like we're talking about earlier, UM, for 217 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: paranormal experience, if we're talking about shadow people, I think 218 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: as we will find very shortly that we can explain 219 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: much of the phenomena. UM. If we go a little 220 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: deeper towards alien abductions and some of that stuff, I 221 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: tend to lean a little bit more towards the possibilities 222 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: of it being true. Um, but I would say two 223 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: out of ten. Okay, that's fair. Yes, So Matt and 224 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: I often have similar conversations like this. When it comes 225 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: to the paranormal specifically, it's very important, I think, to 226 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: remember that human understanding is a in a continual state 227 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: of progress, and many of the things that once upon 228 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: a time were miracles or curses later became, um, something 229 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: that we could understand through our current framework of science. 230 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that makes any of those things any 231 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: less terrifying or any more amazing, because um, you know, 232 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: it's it's all kind of uh, it's it's all kind 233 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: of like a magic trick, or or learning the the 234 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of someone writing your face rich story. 235 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: Is Is it possible that we will run into phenomena 236 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: that can just never be explained. It's possible. I hope 237 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. But when we when we look at 238 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: things that are on the fringes of mainstream science or 239 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: orthodox understanding, we do find things that have no no 240 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: physical or quantifiable proof. And those things would be experiences 241 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: or anecdotes about ghosts, or you know, the the idea 242 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: of alien visitation, which is um mathematically staggering just given 243 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: the scale of time and space. But then we also 244 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: find things that I think are magical regardless of it, 245 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: and I don't mean magical in a sweet Disney way. 246 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: I mean freaky man like. The idea of of quantum entanglement, 247 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: uh should make everyone really, really really weirded out. No 248 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: matter what you're doing. If you're eating a sandwich right now, 249 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: think about how that sandwich might be entangled with something 250 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: later in the universe, carefully consider your condiments. You know, 251 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: there was there was a guy in New York that 252 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: for a while, maybe still doing it, who was offering 253 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: quantum entanglement marriage ceremonies. Well, and I forget the exact 254 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: way the specifics of how this worked, but you know, 255 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: two people would would enter and he would somehow quantumly 256 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: entangle the two of you so that, you know, no 257 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: matter where you go in this universe, there would there 258 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: would be that bond between you, a quantum bond. Do 259 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: you think it has any effect on there are other 260 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: multiplicities of them that exist in the other multiverses. You know. 261 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how it affects quantum divorce rights either. Yeah, 262 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can pay extra 263 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: right for service there. But but yeah, so that's that's 264 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: that's the point is that typically I think there's often 265 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: a false dichotomy um in in some realms of the 266 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: conspiracy world, between a conspiracy theorists and a skeptic, because really, 267 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: what we should only be talking about this critical thinking. 268 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is, with the vast 269 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: majority of paranormal phenomenon, the stuff that the stuff that 270 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: has been closely examined has often been explained, just not 271 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: in a way that is perhaps as exciting or as 272 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: sexy as some people would want it to be. But 273 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: I don't think that makes it any less amazing, and 274 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: I don't think that means that we should stop investigating. Yes, indeed, 275 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: and uh. And one of the things too, that I 276 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: think is important to point out about paranormal experience is 277 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: that you know, we can we can sit around all 278 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: day and say, all right, well, you know, mathematically, alien 279 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: abductions are not occurring, or the likelihood of a ghost 280 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: existing an angel existing theories existing, though you know, we 281 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: and we can call that hogwash all day. But but 282 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: but ultimately, a paranormal experience is real. People do experience 283 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: something that they cannot explain, and in lieu of an 284 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: actual explanation, they end up applying other explanations to it. 285 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: They draw from existing scripts of folklore, existing scripts of 286 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: of religion, existing scripts of science fiction pop culture. Those 287 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: end up being, uh, the buckets we turn to to 288 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: try and explain things that happened to us that do 289 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: not match up with our normal procept perception of reality, 290 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: or are our normal experience of life. Yeah. That you know, 291 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: when you say that, that makes me anything one of 292 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: the one of the perfect, and I don't want to 293 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: derail us here, but one of the perfect. Examples of 294 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: that would be some of the hallucinations that people take 295 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: on spiritual journeys, especially given that that is such a 296 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: a long standing tradition across so many cultures. Uh. One 297 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: thing that we have always found, we being the human 298 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: race entire, is that those experiences, UM, regardless of how 299 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: somebody might examine neurochemistry or attempt to you know, quote 300 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: unquote debunk the nature of whatever that spirit journey is. Uh, 301 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: these people do have legitimate and valid experiences. And I 302 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: really appreciate UM you pointing that out, because Matt and 303 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: I go out of our way to um be as 304 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: respectful to people who genuinely have had an experience as 305 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: we can. You know, we don't we don't want to ever, 306 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, purposefully irritate or ever. Uh, I guess, denigrate 307 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: somebody for telling us honestly about something that they experienced. 308 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: We might not agree on the causes, but also we 309 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 1: weren't there. So yeah, anecdotal evidences, it's it is easily discounted. Um, 310 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: But like you said, it's it's real or something happened. Now, 311 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: one example of certainly paranormal experience, I mean right here 312 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: in the room. Uh no, our normal producer is is 313 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: that on vacation as well, or something like vacation. I'm 314 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: not sure. I'm not getting into his business, but in 315 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: his place, candlers here and and Candler's just telling us 316 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: about paranormal experiences that he has encountered. And by this, 317 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: I mean he does see shadow people when he's sleep deprived, 318 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: and he has experienced, um, sleep paralysis. Um. So just 319 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: to refresh a sleep paralysis is all about what does 320 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: what does our body do when we're dreaming. Ultimately, the 321 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: idea is that when the when the body shuts down 322 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: for sleep, it's got the muscles are going on kind 323 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: of a lockdown. Because in your dream you may be 324 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: having a karate battle with a dragon, but you don't 325 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: need your limbs to be having that same battle, because 326 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, you may have the dogs or cats or 327 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: humans laying around you sleeping. You may have lamps that 328 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: you don't want destroyed and windows you don't want to 329 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: plunge through. So sleep paralysis is just the locking down 330 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: of the muscles. Is there to keep things from getting crazy. However, 331 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: sometimes things get out of sync a bit and uh, 332 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: and in sleep proalysis, what happens is that the is 333 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: that you wake up. The conscious mind is waking up 334 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: from from slumber and from dream, but the body is 335 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: not unlocked yet, So you're waking up into a locked body, 336 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: and you're you're not completely awake either as well. We'll 337 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: discussing a bit. These phases of moving into and out 338 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: of sleep are the perfect zones to see things that 339 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: are not there, or apply non rational explanations for things 340 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: that are there. Exactly, You've you've been having some pretty 341 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: crazy hallucinations for the past few hours. If you're experiencing 342 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, you're in a completely another world. You're, like 343 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 1: you said, perhaps let's let's use the dragons example. So 344 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: you've been fighting a dragon. You wake up, you're in 345 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: your bed, but you can't move it all, and you're 346 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: still seeing like at least a shadow of this dragon 347 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: form that is still trying to attack you while your 348 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: body is not functioning. If you if you don't know 349 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: what sleep paralysis is, this is the most terrifying moment 350 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: in your entire life. And it just made me think 351 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: about all of the people that experienced this before we 352 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: had the the tool of science and had to be 353 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: able to look at this and figure out exactly what 354 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: it is. And there were several something that you had 355 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: written about before in your Monsters of the Week. Were 356 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: several The first one was nightmares about this? Uh, can 357 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: you explain that just slightly? Oh? Yeah, I mean the 358 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: nightmare the night mara. It's an idea that you just 359 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: see in culture after culture after culture, and it's the 360 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: idea that you're waking up and there's some oppressive force 361 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: pressing down on you that you know, just either setting 362 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: on your chest or just just an oppressive force that's 363 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: keeping you from moving and uh, and and you just 364 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: see it again in culture after culture after culture, different 365 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: different explanations, slightly different different shades of what exactly the 366 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: the entity is, but it's it's everywhere and a lot 367 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: of people who experience sleep paralysis. Fine, see this thing, 368 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: it's been called the intruder um, it's been called a 369 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: succubus or an incubus, but they have very specific things 370 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: that they do. If if it's going to be named 371 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: incubus or succubus. But you wrote in your one of 372 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: your articles or the blog post about how these creatures 373 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: are mimics, and uh, it made me think about what 374 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: we're about to go into the science at least from 375 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 1: this one study that we looked at about how these 376 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: things are almost a a mimic of ourselves or a 377 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: version of ourselves. Yes, not mimicry, Robert, mimicry I Okay, 378 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: So clearly Matt and I are big fans of the show. Uh. 379 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: One of the one of the things that we find 380 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: fascinating about human experience in general, or the way human 381 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: beings participate in the outside world, is that the our 382 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: entire species has this compulsion to to classify, to anthropomorphize, 383 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: to make um, to make a coherent picture from the 384 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: raw shack blot, you know. So it's it's strange to 385 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: me when we hear when we hear stories of people 386 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: saying you know, I saw this mysterious figure, and it's always, 387 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, humanoid, or at the very least it's always 388 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: in some cultures it's a it's a specific shade of 389 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: an animal or something, but it's always a common animal too. 390 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: Um And I think it's interesting because it says a 391 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: lot about the way our brains deliver this sort of 392 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: sensory information to us. Now, just a touch base again 393 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: on on sleep paralysis. Researchers are not sure why exactly 394 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: normal paralysis happens during conscience for victims of sleep proalysis, 395 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: but the studies have confirmed that the attacks are particularly 396 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: likely to occur the person enters r e M sleep 397 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: quickly after hitting the pillow, bypassing the stages of non 398 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: rim sleep that usually happen first. So some of the 399 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: factors that are often involved here are drifting off while 400 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: lying on your back, if you're feeling stressed, if you're 401 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,959 Speaker 1: experiencing a disruption in your normal sleep patterns, such as 402 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: you like a weird work schedule, jet lag, you're having 403 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: a little bit too much caffeine, a little bit too 404 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: much alcohol. But at the end of the day of 405 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: the normal adult population has experienced sleep paralysis at least once, 406 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: and around five percent of the population has experienced one 407 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: or more of other disturbing symptoms associated with the disorder. 408 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: And in this we're talking about getting into hallucinations, shadows 409 00:24:54,440 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: and light, human animal figures, auditory hallucinations, hearing voices or footsteps, 410 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: and and even that strong sense of a presence something menacing, 411 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: or even an esthetic sensation such as the feeling of 412 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: being dragged out of bed or vibrating, flying, falling, which again, 413 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: all of these things can easily play into a fantastic 414 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: interpretation involving of you know, demons soaring through the air 415 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: and taking you off to some sabbath on the other 416 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: side of the hill, or aliens taking you up and 417 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: probing you. And on the probe note, it's also worth 418 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: noting that a lot of these sleep browses encounters do 419 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: end up having a kind of sexual overtone to them, because, 420 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: I mean, sleep itself, the dream world often has shades 421 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:44,479 Speaker 1: obviously of sexual desire in there, and seen as the 422 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: human brain in the state of sleep is still relatively 423 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: mysterious in some fronts, um it makes sense that we 424 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: don't we don't completely understand what triggers this arrhythmic cycle 425 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: or synchronous zation between the conscious mind and the human body. 426 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: But we also know that the human mind is not 427 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: dichotomous when it comes to waking and sleeping. Right, there's 428 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: sort of a spectrum and we all kind of slide 429 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 1: along it on our way to sleep and then our 430 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: way to hitting the snooze button again. And there's this 431 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: really weird sort of twilight zone sweet spot if you will, 432 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: where in you can have dreams or hallucinations that are 433 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: more vivid even then. You know, any high school comedy 434 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: you've seen where someone accidentally takes acid. Yeah, you when 435 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: you're drifting into sleep or coming out of it, you 436 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: kind of have a leg in both worlds. Now, in 437 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: my own experience that, like, the two examples that I 438 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: come back to on this are pretty much any night 439 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: that I'm I'm sleeping, I'm I'm drifting off the sweep, 440 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: but I'm still reading. I don't know if you guys 441 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: encount of this. If you reach that point where you're 442 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: still reading, but you're not reading the book like you're 443 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: somehow reading a made up book off the very real 444 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: pages that you're looking at, and and generally that's the 445 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: point where you where I'm just kind of think, oh, well, 446 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: I'm not reading the real book anymore. Time to go 447 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: to sleep. But when you stop and you look back 448 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: and you really you know, you end up doing a 449 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: double tick on that, Like that is that is a 450 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: cue that there is this very weird twilight zone that 451 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: you're trouncing through on your way to slumber. Have you 452 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: guys evergotten the I don't know a better way to 453 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: explain it besides the the blue falling hallucination of it's 454 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: just kind of blue light that falls in front of 455 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: your eyes. Did do either of you guys wear contacts? Yes? Yes? Okay, 456 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: So when I sleep without my contacts, and I've got 457 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: extremely close um near sightedness, and sometimes when I wake 458 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: up and everything is very blurry, I'm still in somewhat 459 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: of a dream state, and I'm just trying to decide 460 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: whether or not I want to actually get up or 461 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: not I will if I close one eye, I can 462 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: see this kind of blue falling light. Um, I guess 463 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: in the eye that I have clothes, but it's by 464 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: doing so it ends up being transferred onto my left 465 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 1: eye that is open in this case, and I've been 466 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: trying to figure out exactly what that is, and and 467 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: it has something to do with the this type of hallucination, 468 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: hallucination what is it called? These types of hallucinations? All right, 469 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: there to two different states, two different hallucinations we're talking 470 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: about here. One is the hypnopompic state. Now, this is 471 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: a state of consciousness leading out of sleep, and in 472 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: the opposite, the state leading into sleep is the hypnogogic state. 473 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: And in theory, the hypnogogic state, again, you're going to sleep, 474 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: and so the rational waking mind is trying to make 475 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: sense of nonlinear dream images and association. Uh so again 476 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: you're you're seeing pages that aren't there, and you're trying 477 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: to figure out why am I seeing pages that aren't there? 478 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: You know that kind of thing. Meanwhile, the hypnopompic state 479 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: is the emotional and naive dreaming mind trying to make 480 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: sense of real world sights and sounds. So this is 481 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: where we get this, this waking dream. So there might 482 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: be some sort of weird shadow in the room, the 483 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: light is strange on the ceiling, we hear the sound 484 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: of the cat scratching on something, and we still have 485 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: that crazy open dream mind that's trying to make sense 486 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: of it, the same mind that totally buys into whatever fantastic, 487 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: crazy dream you're having. Of course, I'm fighting a dragon, 488 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: this is what I do. That mind is suddenly trying 489 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: to figure out what the cat is doing under the bed. 490 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: So maybe it's a dragon, right, Yeah, And then that's 491 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: that's perfect because we can make we can make a 492 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: few examples here that will be clearly understandable to anyone 493 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: who has missed their alarm clock a couple of times. 494 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: You guys, So if you're listening, you've probably had this 495 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: moment where you're in a dream and then there's a 496 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: fire alarm somewhere in the distance, or a car alarm, 497 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: or if you use a ring tone on your cell phone, 498 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, your strange dream with uh, your 499 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: old high school buddy and I don't know, Vladimir Putin, 500 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: what something topical? All of a sudden this ring tone 501 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: you love comes on and you and your high school 502 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: chum and Vladimir Putin are dancing to every day I'm hustling. 503 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: And then you wake up, which I assume is someone's 504 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: ring tone, And then you wake up and you realize, oh, 505 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: it was all. It was all a dream that these 506 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: things happening in the outside world went through this this 507 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: internal script that I had that might have been influenced 508 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: by historical older scripts, religious scripts, folkloric stuff. And to 509 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: me that's fascinating because when I fall asleep with a 510 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: ray Deo on or something like that, Um, you know, Robert, 511 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: I recently got a dog and the dog makes noises 512 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: that my sleeping mind is not used to write because 513 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: you're you're a new dog owner, right, the cat person 514 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: up upol Now, yeah, yeah, and uh, I've had a lot. 515 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: It turns out the dog snores, So I've had I've 516 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: actually had a couple of sleeping dragon dreams and waking 517 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: up and finding out that thank god, it's just a 518 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: puppy and not smell. You know, I have a very 519 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: clear memory from when I was like a young kid, 520 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: definitely in an age where every toys are everything, you know, 521 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: action figures are everything, and and you know, you end 522 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: up do you see these pictures in like the serious 523 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: catalog and you just you obsessed about it, like I 524 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: would love to have that Transformer one day. And I 525 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: distinctly remember waking up from a dream of having some 526 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: sort of fancy Transformer former toy and seeing it next 527 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: to me in the bed for were you know, for 528 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: this very small amount of time, but enough time to 529 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: make an impact on me as a child. Now, Grant 530 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: it's a memory. And we've on this podcast, we've talked 531 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: plenty of times about how uh, how how many opportunities 532 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: we have to mess up a dream, especially every time 533 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: we drag it out of the box. But but it 534 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: but it had an impact on me because I saw 535 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: how there was this possibility for something in a dream 536 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: to sort of follow you out of the dream for 537 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: a little bit before it scampers back to the the subconscious. Uh. 538 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: That is a beautiful and terrifying thought. Yeah, well that's 539 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: the thing. It is that beautiful and terrifying, just like 540 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: all these various interpretations of the paranormal. Yeah, and when 541 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about shadow people, it's it's fairly apparent that 542 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: you know, this this falling into waking and sleeping and 543 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: and the weird twilight zone between those two points. It's 544 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: fairly apparent that this is a very old thing, and 545 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: that what we call shadow people today in the age 546 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: of the Internet, have been called many other things and 547 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: often behaving in some of the same ways. But we 548 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: have an advantage, um, an advantage that was one through 549 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: bloody centuries of experimentation and breaking ethics, we know a 550 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: little bit more about the human brain. Right, and you 551 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: sent us some some fascinating information regarding uh kind of 552 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: a look behind the curtain explaining that feeling of a presence, right, yeah, yeah, 553 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: it's it's a really fascinating study came out in two 554 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: thousand six, Uh, Swiss study public in the journal Nature. 555 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: And uh no, it was not a study that was 556 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: specifically targeting the shadow people, because I guess you tend 557 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: to have trouble getting funding for that kind of thing. 558 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: But the thing is, this sort of apparition, this kind 559 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: of shadow figure, does play into the experiences of psychiatric 560 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: and neurological patients. So the researchers made this discovery while 561 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: evaluating a perfectly norm twenty two year old woman for 562 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: surgical treatment of epilepsy, and when they electronically stimulated her 563 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: brains left temper operato junction, or t PJ, they repeatedly 564 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: gave her the sensation of a lurking shadow man in 565 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: her presence. Uh. She perceived the shadow person is just 566 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: behind her. She perceived the figure as interfering with her 567 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: attempts to read a book, like trying to snatch it 568 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: out of her hands. And when the researchers stimulated her 569 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: in a seated position, this is the best part for me. 570 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: She perceived herself to be seated in the entity's lap 571 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: and he had he she had its arms around her, 572 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,479 Speaker 1: and she described this as being an unpleasant feeling. That's 573 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: that's really interesting, just the idea of she basically was 574 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: having an out of almost this strange out of body 575 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: experience in a way where she was I guess her 576 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: her feeling of this is hard for me to explain. 577 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: I can't explain this. Maybe you guys will be better 578 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: at this, but just that I've had feeling before, but 579 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: not because my brain was being electrocuted. Well, it's kind 580 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: of like some some part of her sensory interpretation got 581 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: was hijacked. You know. By this, by this simulation, we 582 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: know that in terms of evolution, it's been necessary and 583 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: advantageous for people to have that feeling of you know, 584 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: a sixth sense or shining or whatever. In short, it's 585 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 1: it's really good for the human race at large. If 586 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: a lot of us are paranoid in uh, in strange situations, 587 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: but also finding the finding the neurological button or one 588 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: of the neurological buttons that can trigger this reminds me 589 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: of some some earlier stuff that you guys have done 590 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: on this show about finding a specific part of the 591 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: brain that is responsible for, you know, experiencing the presence 592 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: of God for instance. Right. Um. The the thing about 593 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: this is that, um, Matt and I are pretty into 594 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: self experimentation, so I would love to figure out a way. 595 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: I don't know if you should shock your brain. Do 596 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: you have a tDCS or some form of electrical brain 597 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: show working on all kinds of stuff? What are you 598 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: making it yourself? I would not you like off the 599 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: plans off the internet, or you're buying one at a 600 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: at a punch shot. Look, Robert, the FDA are trying 601 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: to trying to stop the progress of my experimentation, and uh, 602 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: you know I've I've tried several different methods. It is 603 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: true that there are now finally some commercially available t 604 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,439 Speaker 1: DCS devices that do not require you to be a 605 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: doctor in charge of a clinical study, But those devices, 606 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: uh leave a lot to be desired, and if you 607 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: want something done right, you often need to do it 608 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: yourself before you go shocking your left temporo parato junction 609 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: of t VJ. UH. Let's let's just take it apart 610 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: for a second for the listeners here and go through 611 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: what the the t PJ does. The TPJ concerns self processing, UH, 612 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: self other distinction and multisensory body integration info UH. The 613 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: the electrical stimulation in this case of this again UH 614 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: perfectly normal otherwise patient, it's thought to have caused her 615 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: to attribute her own actions to this alien entity, to 616 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: her to her shadow, to something just a few degrees 617 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: left of her actual location or a little bit behind 618 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: her um and uh. And so the researchers proposed that 619 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: electrical stimulation to this area in the patient disturbed again 620 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: multisensory but also um sensor motor integration of the information 621 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: with respect to her body, leading to the appearance of 622 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: a of what what is otherwise the first rank symptom 623 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: of schizophrenia in this a person with no psychiatric history. 624 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: Along those lines, um, so we're getting we're getting down 625 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: to the perception of not only reality, but the perception 626 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: of self in reality, which which we often take for Granted, 627 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, we think that we know who we are 628 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: because we're looking out of this body and we're seeing 629 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: the world, and and then a lot of it's based 630 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: on site. But clearly it's more complex than that, right, 631 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: And we see here the line between our same perceptions 632 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: of reality and self and the insane or the magical 633 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: being just uh, a far slimmer line than the most 634 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: of us assume unders the daily basis. It makes me 635 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: wonder if one day we will ascribe a sixth sense 636 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: as our sense of just that overall sense of self 637 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: that we're describing here, of where we are in reality. 638 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily touched, not necessarily site or any of that. 639 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: It's just your own, your brain's own understanding of where 640 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: it is in spacetime. Yeah, it's almost like if you're 641 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: watching a movie and the film quality blurs, or the 642 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: or the boom mic is suddenly in shot, like to 643 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: a certain extent, seeing shadow people or experiencing and out 644 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: of body experience. That which we'll get into a second here, 645 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: is kind of like the boom mic getting in the shot. 646 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: But it's like if you saw the film though, and 647 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: you didn't say, hey, there's a boom mic. You might 648 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: think there is a demon on the ceiling in this room. 649 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 1: What are our characters going to do to survive it? Like, 650 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: we don't have the processing, you know, like the brain 651 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: you can get in that area with the brain cannot 652 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: stand outside of itself and perceive itself. What were you 653 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: gonna say about astral travel or out of bodies well, 654 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, out of body experiences or O b ees 655 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: And apparently somebody calls them um the you know these happen. 656 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: People do experience these is It's not just unsolved mystery stuff. 657 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: They most commonly happen to people with neurological disorders such 658 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: as the chronic migraine strokes, epilepsy, brain tumors. UH. Some 659 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: also estimated five of perfectly healthy people also have the 660 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: sensation at some point UH. And we can actually a 661 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: connect out of body experiences again to that TPJ researchers 662 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: have used transparano magnetic stimulation on the t p J 663 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: to impair mental transformations of the body in healthy volunteers, 664 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: so essentially able to UH to stimulate that part of 665 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: the brain to reduce a kind of out of body 666 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: experience without the aid of you know, near death experience. 667 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: Or astral projection or strain or whatever they did in flatliners. 668 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: The funny side note for that, uh, the United States 669 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: government actually poured quite a bit of money into ob research. 670 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: You there's a there's a film loosely based on that 671 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: called The Menu Steric Goats. Uh. They have, but they 672 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:55,959 Speaker 1: they have people who were professional astral travelers, the most 673 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: famous of which was a guy named Dingo Swan. I 674 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: should go ahead and say, in the interests of fairness, 675 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,280 Speaker 1: that this program was, to our knowledge, canceled because it 676 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: was not as cost effective as you know they had hoped. Yeah. Well, 677 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: and there was remote viewing. I guess that would be 678 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: a form of astral travel. Yeah, there are a lot 679 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: of interesting things. It was that Project stargates, Project Stargate fascinating. Well, 680 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at it, I guess from 681 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: the government's point of view, if perceivably there might be 682 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: a window open there, you don't want to just be 683 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: there one day when the Soviets come crawling through that window. 684 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: You want to explore that window and make sure that 685 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: it is indeed closed or at least maybe I'm I'm 686 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: hopeful that that is the mindset that's precisely actually, that's 687 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: exactly the reasoning that we That's the closest thing we 688 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 1: could arrive at. So So, Robert, have we found the 689 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 1: explanation behind shadow people? I think so. I think it's 690 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: if it's not again you get into shadow people, this 691 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: seems to be varying um degrees of it, Like, this 692 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: is definitely a case where someone is perceiving a very 693 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: near um entity, something that is basically living just a 694 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: few degrees away from their own body. Uh. And I 695 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: think that we can definitely see with with these experiments 696 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: with the t PJ. Now when you get into some 697 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: of the other scenarios where someone's viewing a shadow on 698 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: the other side of the room, I think maybe we 699 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: need to turn more towards that that realm of sleep 700 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:34,240 Speaker 1: paralysis and those waking or plunging into slumber hallucinations. But 701 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: but I think we have some strong ammo here to 702 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: to explain some of the cases and and throw a 703 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: lot of rational thinking at other cases. I don't know, guys, 704 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna hold out judgment until Game of Thrones concludes 705 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: in like, oh man, if he ever finishes those books, 706 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: it's get it's the races early on to see what's 707 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: going to happen, not in terms of the storyline just 708 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,439 Speaker 1: that one, but t V versus versus the novels which 709 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: finished first. Well, I would just like to say it 710 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: feels like we're concluding here. I would just like to say, Robert, 711 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: thank you again for having us on. It's been a pleasure. 712 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you guys for joining me. Yeah, we 713 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: we just have a few minutes here before the shadowy 714 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: entities creep in and drag us away. But uh, we 715 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: should probably go ahead and just chill absolutely everything. So 716 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: first of all, of you guys have been doing this 717 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: awesome video series for a while and your efforts have 718 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: just recently expanded. Uh, please share with with our listeners 719 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: everything you're working on right now, not the top secret 720 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: stuff or the illegal stuff involving brain stimulation, but all 721 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: the on the board stuff area. But okay, sure, well 722 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: if okay, if you want to learn more about our show, 723 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: you can go to the longest r L in history 724 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 1: called stuff they Don't Want You to Know dot com, 725 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: or you can find us on YouTube. We are conspiracy 726 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: stuff on there. Um. We make shows three shows a week. 727 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: There might be more, sometimes it might be less. Who knows. 728 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: Who knows. We also make an audio show No True Yeah, 729 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: where we reference stuff to blow your mind as well, 730 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: and let's see. Oh, we're also on Twitter. Uh, but 731 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,439 Speaker 1: I'd like to spend some time, uh talking about some 732 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind, things that I think everybody 733 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: should check out. If you're listening to this and you 734 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: haven't visited Stuff to Blew your Mind dot com, to 735 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:36,400 Speaker 1: check out the amazing blog our our mutual favorite met 736 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: is always monster related right. Oh, yes, and there's something 737 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: very special coming up. I don't know if have you 738 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: been talking about this yet. Yeah, I've been mentioning a 739 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: little bit and it should be out at for anyone 740 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: listening to h the show right now. But yeah, I 741 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: do this Monster of the Week blog series where I 742 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: take a take something in the monster's realm, be at 743 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, pop culture or movies, X files or something 744 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: more chloora myth based and then try and get at 745 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: the science of it. For instance, with the Shadow People, 746 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: it is a direct study that linked it. Other times 747 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: I'm kind of taking something that that that that isn't 748 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: about that monster. But if you start bringing the two together, 749 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: then you can see, uh, you can see the connections Basically, 750 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 1: the idea is that whatever we attribute to the fantastic 751 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: in a made up monster, if you look close enough 752 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: in the natural world, you'll find something just as fantastic. Uh. 753 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: And and that's ultimately the connection I try and get 754 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: out there. And so now we have a video series 755 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: based on this. Uh. They we running six episodes off 756 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: called Monster Science, where with Dr Anton Jessup who is 757 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: a disgraced curator of monster Sciences at the university, and 758 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: we were able to get him to do this a 759 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: series for us right there in his basement. It's yeah, 760 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: well hopefully so and you know, and and if it's 761 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: a success, will do more of them. If not, then 762 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 1: the Dr Jessup may may may vanish for a while 763 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: and your mysterious circumstances I hope not cool. All right, well, hey, 764 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,879 Speaker 1: you know, check it out. You can find it on 765 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,839 Speaker 1: our YouTube channel, Mind Stuff Show. It's also all over 766 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: stuffable your mind dot com. That's our mothership. That's where 767 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: all of the podcasts episode live. That's where the videos are, 768 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: that's where the blog posts are, and that's where you 769 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: also find links out to these various social media accounts 770 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: like Facebook, Tumbler, Twitter, etcetera. Um. Also, I mentioned this 771 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: on the Facebook some of you you had asked me 772 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: about this, But I also personally have a collection of 773 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: short stories out called eight Black Offerings. So if anyone 774 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: out there is interested in h some rather bleak, gruesome 775 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: horror tales that I wrote previously and had been published previously, Uh, 776 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: that book is available. Can search for it on Amazon. 777 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: And it's only for grown ups. Oh yeah, live testimonial. 778 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: I picked up a copy of this book, and I 779 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: don't know if we talked about it, but I really 780 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: enjoyed it personally, and the only thing I was gonna 781 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: say is that it's probably only for adults. Yeah, yeah, 782 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's some grooms up that It's not the 783 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: kind of stuff I would even write today. But anyway, 784 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: I bring it out because because I know some of 785 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 1: your listeners had asked about it. H And in the future, 786 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm hopefully gonna have some stuff out that is uh, 787 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: it's it's more for a general eye Getting dark with 788 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb. Yeah yeah, that's the next and the next 789 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: video series. So anyway, Hey, you guys have an email address, 790 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: right If people want to reach you on email, where 791 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,360 Speaker 1: do they send those uh, those those queries about shadow people. 792 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: You can send all of your complaints to conspiracy at 793 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com. Wait wait, you can. You can send 794 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: any questions about shadow people to conspiracy at Discovery dot com. 795 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: If you have complaints, please do forward them to our 796 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: official complaint department, Jonathan Stricklands over back stuff. So that's 797 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland at Discovery dot com. Cool and as always, 798 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:58,280 Speaker 1: our email address is blow the Mind at Discovery dot com. 799 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,719 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topic is 800 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,880 Speaker 1: it how stuff Works dot com m