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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. It's me cat here per usual. Oh man,

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited about this week coming up. If you

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Speaker 1: live in Nashville and you follow me on Instagram, or

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Speaker 1: if you don't live a Nashville what you follow me

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Speaker 1: on Instagram, you probably have seen me posting about this

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Speaker 1: thing called the Skyline Ride, which is a ride we're

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Speaker 1: doing with the studio that I teach for full full

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Speaker 1: ride cycling on the pedestrian bridge in downtown Nashville. We're

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Speaker 1: doing it on this Saturday, So I'm like all amped

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Speaker 1: up this week because it's just really cool. If you're

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Speaker 1: not a cycling person, like an indoor cycling person, you're

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Speaker 1: probably like, oh cool, you're working out outside on a bridge.

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Speaker 1: But I'm serious. Indoor cycling it's like a lifestyle kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, like you have to experience to understand it.

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Speaker 1: But like this is a big deal and I'm just,

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Speaker 1: you know, using this moment right here to tell everybody

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Speaker 1: how I am, which is cool because I mean it's

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Speaker 1: a job, me teaching cycling as a job, but it's

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Speaker 1: also for me an outlet, and that just something that

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Speaker 1: gets to be fun for me, and this is really fun.

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Speaker 1: And I preach all the time about how it's important

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Speaker 1: for us to have hobbies and it's important for us

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Speaker 1: to have things outside of our lives other than work,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, I like my full time job too, and

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Speaker 1: this is that for me. So I'm just excited about it.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to let you guys know, if you

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Speaker 1: do love a nationally, haven't come taken a class and

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Speaker 1: it's something that you would like to do, message me

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Speaker 1: will get you in a class. Indoor cycling's just so

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Speaker 1: much fun. Besides that, I am also very excited because

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Speaker 1: this episode of the podcast, and I feel like I

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Speaker 1: say this all the time, but this interview was so

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Speaker 1: fascinating for me. I have John Eldridge on today, and

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Speaker 1: some of you may know who that is. He wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called Wild at Heart, which has been a

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Speaker 1: huge godsend for so many people, men and women, and

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Speaker 1: it's a book that's really centered more written for men,

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Speaker 1: but it's also written so then women can understand men too.

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Speaker 1: It's really great. I highly recommend it. We talked about it,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not going to go too much into detail,

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Speaker 1: but they released an expanded edition of this book because

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Speaker 1: of the changes that have happened in the last twenty years.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about that. But this conversation I had

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Speaker 1: with John was centered around the differences that men and

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Speaker 1: the different challenges that men have gone through in the

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Speaker 1: last year. And it was just fascinating to me because

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Speaker 1: I think some of it's like oh yeah, dah, I

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Speaker 1: know that, but also just being able to have that

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Speaker 1: conversation and the dialogue back and forth was like, Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, this is a thing. It's so good, and

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Speaker 1: he was amazing. I would just remainze a gentle, like sweet,

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Speaker 1: very intelligent soul, and I really felt like he was

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Speaker 1: talking with me. You know. It was a conversation and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just like an interview. It felt like we

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Speaker 1: were talking together about something and there's passion in both

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Speaker 1: of our voices, and gosh, he's just great. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: stop talking, though, because I need you to hear this.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you guys enjoy it, and I hope

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Speaker 1: you guys are having the week that you need to

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Speaker 1: have so far. And I will see you guys Wednesday

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Speaker 1: or talk to you guys Wednesday. Won't see you, but

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Speaker 1: that'd be cool if I could anyway, I'll talk to

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Speaker 1: you once, say, for couch Talks. Here's my conversation with John.

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Speaker 1: I'm familiar with While at Heart years ago, but you've

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Speaker 1: re released it and expanded it. So for the people

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Speaker 1: who are not familiar with it, can we start with

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Speaker 1: what that book is, why it's important, why you even

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Speaker 1: set out to create that in the first place, and

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Speaker 1: then why the expansion and why So when I were

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Speaker 1: a Wild at Heart twenty years ago, we were in

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Speaker 1: a state of cultural upheaval around the issues of gender, masculinity, femininity,

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Speaker 1: who are we, what are we designed for? How do

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Speaker 1: we love one another? But since then, the last twenty years,

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Speaker 1: it's gone from chaos to collapse. I mean, gender is

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Speaker 1: a fluid thing. Gender is something that you can move

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Speaker 1: in and out of and in between and and change

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Speaker 1: according to how you're doing and what you feel and

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Speaker 1: what you think. And it's really quite heartbreaking because when

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Speaker 1: you have a culture and a group of people so

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Speaker 1: confused about something as essential as gender, like wow, like

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Speaker 1: we're we are questioning the deepest things of our humanity

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Speaker 1: at this point. So there's a phenomenal story behind it,

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Speaker 1: but it's healed the lives of a lot of men

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Speaker 1: and a lot of women, and a lot of families.

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Speaker 1: And as we watch the pandemic come through and really

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Speaker 1: trash people. The pandemic has been brutal folks, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: especially from I will say from my experience of my

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Speaker 1: own personal experience. But then I'm watching all my clients

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Speaker 1: go through this, so I have their inner workings and like,

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Speaker 1: I've never seen a collective group of people have so

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Speaker 1: much anxiety consistently for so long. And then everybody's wondering

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? And I'm like, nothing is wrong

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Speaker 1: with you. We're in a pan of it. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: all just passed through global trauma and we're not out

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Speaker 1: of it yet. But but when they when you, when

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Speaker 1: they take away your normal, take away your normal and

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Speaker 1: keep you in a constant state of uncertainty. You know

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen next? What are the new rags?

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Speaker 1: One of the vaccines coming out? Will they really work?

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Speaker 1: Is you know? Now it's the new variants? Oh no,

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Speaker 1: you know there's something coming up from Brazil that's really bad.

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Speaker 1: And so they keep you in a state of constant uncertainty.

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Speaker 1: But they've taken away a lot of your normal. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're working at home, you're not working at all, you're

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Speaker 1: working online. This is traumatizing. And so yes, anxiety, yes, depression, Yes,

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Speaker 1: drug alcohol abuse have gone way up, and it gets

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Speaker 1: worse than that. You know, we talk about that as

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Speaker 1: we move into the conversation. But we were looking at

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Speaker 1: this last year and wondering what kind of contribution could

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Speaker 1: we make to help people's heart and soul. And so

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Speaker 1: the really cool thing I'm stoked about is something that

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Speaker 1: we filmed, these beautiful new films last year were men

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Speaker 1: and for women called The Wild at Heart Experience and

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Speaker 1: The Captivating Experience, And it's just it's just an effort's free,

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Speaker 1: it's online. It's just an effort to help people recover

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Speaker 1: heart and get some inner strength back, get some resiliency back,

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Speaker 1: because this has been rough on everybody. You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that you even said that, of like, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like I say all the time, especially on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: but the experience of we've we've all been through trauma,

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Speaker 1: even if I didn't lose my job or even if

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Speaker 1: I didn't whatever, because I think that's what we do,

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Speaker 1: that's where we we push ourselves out of that experience,

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Speaker 1: and then we don't have a reason to be feeling

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Speaker 1: what we feel. However, everybody's had to make transitions, everybody's

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Speaker 1: had to shift and change. I'm going to call this

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Speaker 1: a bias. I don't want to know your opinion on,

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Speaker 1: but my biases that like, in one way, it might

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Speaker 1: be easier for men to move through this because they, generally,

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Speaker 1: doing air quotes, are better at cutting off their emotions.

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Speaker 1: I say that with this like there's this like under

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Speaker 1: pending inside of my body saying that's not true, because

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Speaker 1: cutting off your emotions isn't always the best way to

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Speaker 1: deal with things, and it can create a whole other

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Speaker 1: slew of problems. And so since I work with mostly women,

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Speaker 1: I sit with them, and I sit with a lot

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Speaker 1: of their like they can talk for days about what's

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Speaker 1: going on, and they're coming to therapy, they're emailing. I'm

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Speaker 1: getting new client emails every week and all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: And what are men doing because generally, from my experience,

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Speaker 1: it's harder to get a man into therapy in the

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Speaker 1: first place. So that's a long way to ask, what

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Speaker 1: are some of the ways that you've seen throughout this

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Speaker 1: year where men are dealing with this differently than women.

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Speaker 1: And then the other boy that's not so good. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: now you're right, Catherine, those characterizations are true. Men tend

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Speaker 1: to check out much more easily than women. The male

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Speaker 1: capacity to compartmentalize is why men are very effective in

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Speaker 1: emergency situations. Like you know, most pair of rescue jumpers

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Speaker 1: are men, and and and most hostage negotiators are men,

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Speaker 1: and you know most you know, there's only men in

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Speaker 1: the Navy seals, right, because guys can do that, They

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Speaker 1: can compartmentalize in order to get something done. But you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right to say as a long term life strategy

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Speaker 1: that is not helpful. And so through the pandemic, we

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Speaker 1: work with a lot of men around the world. Been

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Speaker 1: a therapist for thirty years, and because of that compartmentalization,

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Speaker 1: men began drinking, Pornography use went up, and I'm really

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Speaker 1: sad to say domestic violence went up during the last year,

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Speaker 1: and suicide for men went up as well. I think

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Speaker 1: that the pandemic and when we say that, we're not

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Speaker 1: just talking about the germ, We're talking about the global crisis,

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Speaker 1: the economies, the social tensions, the new regulations, all of that.

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Speaker 1: You know, navigating a new world. I think it's been

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Speaker 1: harder on men because they haven't reached out for help

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Speaker 1: and they're not talking about it and the normal connecting

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Speaker 1: points for guys. Guys do have support systems. Most guys do.

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Speaker 1: But it's the gym, it's it's the Sunday you know,

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Speaker 1: football game, right, it's going for mountain bike rides, it's

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Speaker 1: going fishing together, right, it's shop talk, it's that stuck well,

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Speaker 1: most of that guys couldn't do. Right. We told men

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Speaker 1: to do the most emasculating thing in the world. We

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Speaker 1: told them to go home and do nothing. Oh I

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Speaker 1: didn't even think about that. It's crippling. Okay. So so ladies, like,

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Speaker 1: if you want to understand, we're gonna we're gonna kind

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Speaker 1: of open the hood here and look at the soul

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Speaker 1: of a little bit. Men love to fix things. We

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Speaker 1: want to feel that we are bringing a competency to

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Speaker 1: the world, that we're not an idiot, that we know

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Speaker 1: how to handle our life or whatever it is, our finances,

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Speaker 1: the car, you know, the teenage daughter that's going off

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Speaker 1: the rails. You want to feel like we have something

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Speaker 1: to offer, we can make a difference. Okay, And so

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Speaker 1: this is why men fear failure more than they fear

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Speaker 1: anything else in the world. They fear failure more than

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Speaker 1: they fear rejection. They fear it more than they fear abandonment,

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Speaker 1: because they know, in the core of their being, I

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Speaker 1: am here to make a difference, I am here to

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Speaker 1: come through. And so this is a fascinating thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: most men die after retirement, the age of death. When

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Speaker 1: men quit their careers, they die. And the reason for

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Speaker 1: that is because my competency is over, my contribution is over.

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Speaker 1: I got I got nothing. Now it's not true, but

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Speaker 1: you see that, Okay, So that fear of failure thing,

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Speaker 1: the fear of failure is one of the driving fears

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Speaker 1: of the masculine experience. And in the pandemic, what happened,

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Speaker 1: Catherine was we couldn't fix anything right. We saw the

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Speaker 1: world blowing up, couldn't fix it. We saw people dying,

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Speaker 1: couldn't fix it. We suddenly were home, and we can't

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Speaker 1: fix that because we're not allowed to go back to work.

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Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of anger. And there is a

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Speaker 1: lot okay, yea like a lot of anger in men

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Speaker 1: because I can't fix this. In your experience, have you

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Speaker 1: seen people be able to show that anger or are

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Speaker 1: they showing the anger but there's something underneath of it

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Speaker 1: because you you talked about domestic violence went up and

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Speaker 1: all the stuff went up. Is that a response to this,

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Speaker 1: let's say top anger, but there's something underneath that I

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Speaker 1: can't fix it, which really might be fear or shame

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Speaker 1: or or what sadness, whatever feeling. But anger is a

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Speaker 1: feeling that I've experienced or I've really seen as something

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Speaker 1: that is okay for certain people to show because it

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Speaker 1: has an essence of strong But sadness and shame is

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Speaker 1: a weak feeling. I don't believe that, But that's the generalization.

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Speaker 1: So when you say there's a lot of anger, do

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Speaker 1: you think there's a lot of just true anger or

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of top feelings that there's stuff

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Speaker 1: like a secondary emotion. Yeah, that's a good question. Obviously

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Speaker 1: we're making broad brush strokes and ends on the guy. Right.

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Speaker 1: There are some guys that are taking the healing journey

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Speaker 1: pursuing wholeheartedness. They've been able to channel their anger, their fear,

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Speaker 1: their frustration in more healthy directions. Right, So it kind

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Speaker 1: of depends on the guy. But for the most part,

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Speaker 1: the guys that haven't you know, I've never been into counseling,

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Speaker 1: They've never looked at, you know, their inner life. Those

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Speaker 1: are the guys that are blowing up right, and yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and what are the fascinating stories as a therapist in

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Speaker 1: this is it actually touches on mother issues. Everybody just

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Speaker 1: has been through and I'm talking about it like it's over,

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Speaker 1: but it's not over. I mean, Europe is in a

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Speaker 1: third wave right now. I've got friends in Germany, friends

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Speaker 1: in Ireland. They're all in full tilt lockdown again, full tilt,

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Speaker 1: highest level. It kind of depends on your your view

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Speaker 1: of the world. We're not out of this yet, but

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Speaker 1: I'm referring to the last year because we've all just

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Speaker 1: passed through this collective global experience and we've all suffered

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Speaker 1: a hundred disappointments. Right, couldn't hold that wedding that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to hold, or or you did hold it, but

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Speaker 1: only immediate family was there. Right, Everybody had to cancel

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Speaker 1: their vacations, their trips, their summer camps. You know, all

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Speaker 1: those youth camps that got canceled last summer. Was just

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Speaker 1: so sad because they does so much good for the kids, right,

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Speaker 1: so on and on it goes, right, just all these disappointments.

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Speaker 1: When you live with chronic what I would call serial disappointment,

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Speaker 1: it takes you straight into the deep place of mother.

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Speaker 1: Will I be provided for? Will I have enough? Right?

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Speaker 1: Those are the core questions that mother answers. You will

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Speaker 1: be provided for and you will have enough? So if

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Speaker 1: we have what I would call mother desolation in us already,

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Speaker 1: and then you enter in a year of serial disappointment,

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Speaker 1: and who knows it means the economy going to bounce back?

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Speaker 1: We're not quite sure. Right, is the world going to

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Speaker 1: bounce back? We're not quite sure? Like along will this take?

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Speaker 1: How long do you want to travel internationally? I mean sorry,

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Speaker 1: not this year? Maybe next year, you know. So it

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Speaker 1: touches on these deeper issues of care and provision and

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Speaker 1: and to get a guy there, man that's deep water like,

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Speaker 1: it's going to take him a little bit of coaching

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Speaker 1: to get there, to be able to name some of

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Speaker 1: those things. Which when you say that, a lot of

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Speaker 1: what I'm hearing is fear. That's all this fear of

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Speaker 1: all his fears, all this fear. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: no like science behind this, This is my own just

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Speaker 1: you know, beliefs based on what I've seen. But I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of what we name as anger turned

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Speaker 1: to rage is really fear turned to rage. Like I'm

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Speaker 1: so scared, and so I'm gonna because anger can be

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Speaker 1: really great. Anger is wonderful and a wonderful emotion. Rage

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Speaker 1: is the scary part of People think it's anger, but

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Speaker 1: I really think it's fear. So what you're talking about

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Speaker 1: is all this stuff bubbling up. I don't know really

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Speaker 1: where it's going or where it's come from, and so

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Speaker 1: and then it turns into this uncontrolled expression of I

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Speaker 1: don't even know what emotion. But I really think that

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Speaker 1: is a scared thing. Which going back to you saying that, like,

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Speaker 1: we've asked men to do the scariest thing ever go

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Speaker 1: home and do nothing. Yeah, so for you, can I

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Speaker 1: ask you personally, how has that affected you because you've

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Speaker 1: had to go home to like you, yes, having to

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Speaker 1: work online, holding clients songs online and all that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well let's begin with I've hated it. I've absolutely hated

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Speaker 1: it because I love getting out, I love connecting with people.

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Speaker 1: I love things like parties, you know, I love adventure.

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Speaker 1: So I am very aware of a deep deficits. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I was asking my team the other day, just sharing

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Speaker 1: us if another pandemic rolled through this month and we

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Speaker 1: all started over, how would you be doing it? People like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't ask me that question. Right, it's traumatized. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's yes, it's traumatizing, and it shows you how depleted

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Speaker 1: our reserves are. So like, you know, I've made good choices.

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Speaker 1: I've looked, I've looked out for my own mental health.

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Speaker 1: I've exercised regularly, I've gotten out in the sunshine. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've done those things that human beings need to do

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Speaker 1: in order to thrive. But yeah, I'm angry. I hate

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Speaker 1: this stuff. I hate humanity being thrashed. If if you,

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Speaker 1: if you have a heart for human beings, this is

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Speaker 1: a really rough time, you know, And I'm noticing the

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Speaker 1: people that seem to be doing well are the people

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Speaker 1: that are are the most checked out. Because if you

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Speaker 1: don't care about you, if you don't care about people, right,

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Speaker 1: you don't care that you know, the death rates going

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Speaker 1: up in South America again and all that. So so oh,

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Speaker 1: I gotta stop and say this because what I hear

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Speaker 1: in that is it is painful to hair, It is

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Speaker 1: painful to care about anything. People, humanity, love is costly.

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Speaker 1: I guess I know that. But even just saying that

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Speaker 1: and hearing you say that, it's like, this has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with gender right now, But I've chosen I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I chose that. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: essence of who I am. But man, it's so wonderful

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Speaker 1: to be able to care for people well and to

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Speaker 1: be in my life. It's so great to be in

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Speaker 1: my life and connected. But with that comes some of

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Speaker 1: the greatest pain. And I don't like that. I don't

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Speaker 1: like that. And when and when the pain column begins

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Speaker 1: to exceed the joy column, we pull out. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like a board like I'm not doing this, which you

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Speaker 1: know actually makes me think about This is my experience

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Speaker 1: of men and therapy. Granted for everybody listening. I started

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Speaker 1: working with men. When I first started as a therapist

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Speaker 1: as an intern with men, I was scared out of

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Speaker 1: my mind because I know how to be a therapist

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Speaker 1: one But like then I was like, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: work with them, and I think they're easier, so it's

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Speaker 1: one thing, But now, um, I don't work with them.

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Speaker 1: A lot. Every once in a while, i'll get um

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Speaker 1: a referral for a man. In my experience in both

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Speaker 1: of those realms is they lean way more generally. These

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Speaker 1: is all generalizations. They lean way more on the avoidant

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Speaker 1: side if they are in an insecure attachment. So there's

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Speaker 1: that part. They're better at zipping themselves up. But they're

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Speaker 1: the type of client generally who they'll come in zipped up.

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Speaker 1: They can talk about their anger. I got anger issues,

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Speaker 1: my my girlfriend, my wife, my my boss, says that

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Speaker 1: I need to work on this. That's I hear that

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Speaker 1: a lot. And when you really start tapping in, because

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Speaker 1: I give a spiel at the beginning of every session

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Speaker 1: of just so you know, this might get worse before

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Speaker 1: it gets better. Let me know if that happens, because

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Speaker 1: let's talk about it before you run away. And then

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Speaker 1: you're out in the world, opened up with no healthy

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Speaker 1: coping mechanisms. But what will happen is they'll come in

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Speaker 1: and we'll start doing this great work and they'll be

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Speaker 1: really tapped in and maybe they're finally realizing that they

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Speaker 1: have some little teach traumas or that this thing wasn't okay,

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Speaker 1: and maybe they cry once and it freaks them out

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Speaker 1: and then they totally like go radio silent. They'll cancel

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Speaker 1: their session. Oh, I got caught up at work, and

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Speaker 1: then they'll I'll email you when I want to come back.

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Speaker 1: And then when I reach out in two weeks to

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Speaker 1: check in, nothing like that's the kind of thing that

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Speaker 1: will happen. And I think, what, that's what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: It's like, therapy is not fun a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's really fun. Sometimes it's not. But when they

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Speaker 1: get tapped into that, like, oh, the work it's gonna

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Speaker 1: take to experience what I want in the future, I

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Speaker 1: have to sit in this dissonance now I'd rather not.

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Speaker 1: They're gone. And women can do that too, But I

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Speaker 1: see that a lot in men, and I get it.

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Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is like, I get it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: most men will not look at their internal world until

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Speaker 1: the pain of not doing so is greater than the avoidance, right,

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Speaker 1: So he leaves, he checks out, He disappears for six months,

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Speaker 1: and then it catches up and it's like, I can't

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Speaker 1: ignore this anymore. My addictions are out of control, or

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Speaker 1: my wife left, or you know, I can't do the

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Speaker 1: job until the consequences of running become greater for him

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Speaker 1: personally than the consequences of dealing with it. Because then

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Speaker 1: a lot of times at that point when when that

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Speaker 1: cycle happens, at that point, it's like, Okay, they reach

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Speaker 1: back out and they're they're so far into their addiction

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is that they need more care than

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Speaker 1: I can even give them. Right, So then it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about treatment, or maybe they've had to go

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Speaker 1: to jail or something like that has happened. How do

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Speaker 1: we help anybody, but specifically men, not get to that

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Speaker 1: point Because I also think that has to do with, like,

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Speaker 1: especially the experiences as a female therapist of like this

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Speaker 1: man coming, this this strong guy coming in and like

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Speaker 1: crying on my couch with me. He gets freaked out,

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Speaker 1: lee eaves, and then does whatever he needs to like

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Speaker 1: make sure nobody sees that again until he's too far

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Speaker 1: gone and then he needs a higher level of care.

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Speaker 1: But I think that comes from this like stereotype of

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Speaker 1: like you're not supposed to cry, Like you come in,

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Speaker 1: you talk, you fix your anger, and then you go

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Speaker 1: on with your life. That's a societal thing, I think,

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Speaker 1: So what what can we do as women or just

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Speaker 1: as a society to help ease that tension. So it's

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Speaker 1: okay to have those experiences. It's okay to feel ikey

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Speaker 1: and sad because as a female I feel I don't

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Speaker 1: like it. But if I'm crying in public, I don't

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Speaker 1: have that much shame. Yeah, let's back up, Okay. In

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Speaker 1: order to answer that question, we have to get a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of a picture of the masculine journey.

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Speaker 1: So every little boy comes into the world with two

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Speaker 1: fundamental questions. And I loved and do I have what

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Speaker 1: it takes? Do I have what it takes? Is the

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Speaker 1: search of the masculine heart. It's why he wants to

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00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 1: ride his bike with no hands. It's why he wants

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Speaker 1: to not just bounce on the trampoline. He wants to

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Speaker 1: do flips on the trampoline. On and on and on

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Speaker 1: it goes. Do I have what it takes? And I

405
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Speaker 1: climb the highest tree? Can I do my sled faster?

406
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Speaker 1: Anybody else does? They're sled down the hill. It's all

407
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: the racing and the competition and all that. Do I

408
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Speaker 1: have what it takes? And he looks to dad to

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Speaker 1: find out the answer to those two questions. Am I loved?

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Speaker 1: And do I have what it takes? And depending on

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Speaker 1: how his relationship with his father went, he learned, he learned,

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Speaker 1: he learned the answer to those things, and usually the

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Speaker 1: answer is no, No, you're not loved and you don't

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Speaker 1: have what it takes. That's what most men are walking

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Speaker 1: around with now inside of them. And so to jump

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Speaker 1: ahead then to your question, how do we help guys?

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Speaker 1: The most powerful thing that we can assist a man

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Speaker 1: with is to say, you do have what it takes.

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Speaker 1: You have what it takes to face your inner life.

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Speaker 1: You have the courage for this, you have the fortitude

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Speaker 1: for this. You can do this. And because that gives

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Speaker 1: him the perspective and the context and the wherewithal to

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Speaker 1: go into difficult things like in a counseling setting or

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Speaker 1: in a marriage. Right, yeah, honey, can we talk? Is

425
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: a sentence that most men fear. Honey, can we talk?

426
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: Especially if if she's pissed, Right, honey, we need to

427
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: talk right And he's like, yikes. But but if internally

428
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: he knows, you know what I have what it takes,

429
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: I have what it takes to love a woman, Well

430
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: I don't need to run. I can hang in here.

431
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: I can handle this, even if it's exposing things about

432
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: me that are really really unattractive. I have what it

433
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: takes to handle this. You hear the difference in that, Yeah,

434
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: And it makes me think about the rise in narcissism

435
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: that we're looking at two right now. I think it's

436
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: thrown out too way too much. I think we now

437
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: in this we call everybody a narcissist who is like

438
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: mean to us, which I don't like. But what I

439
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: do know about tried and true narcissistic person anality disorder

440
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: is it comes from a childhood wound. Like it comes

441
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: from a childhood wound where we learned we didn't have

442
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: what it takes, and so your whole life is a

443
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: an attempt to hide that and build up your sense

444
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: of self, and it comes out really yucky. People who

445
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: are diagnosed with that personality sort of them are men,

446
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: Which makes sense because I get taught the message, because

447
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: I will say that as a as a girl growing up,

448
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: I had an experience if I never really felt like

449
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,479
Speaker 1: the best at anything, and I didn't like it, and

450
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: it it caused me some stuff that I had to

451
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: work through later in life. But I never felt like

452
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: I can't show up. Like I never felt like, oh,

453
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: if you aren't the best, or if you can't do

454
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: this thing, or if you're not whatever, then you're not

455
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: really worthy. I didn't feel that wasn't the true, true,

456
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: true message. I made some messages out of it, but

457
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: I'm I'm thinking about, like, do men have as much

458
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: wiggle room to just be mediocre? No? I feel like

459
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: I do have that. Yeah. Yeah, No, don't know because

460
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: it means you're weak and you don't have what it takes.

461
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: You can't handle your life, you can't handle the world

462
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: right you. You are not a man. Yeah, And so

463
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 1: healing the father wound is really critical to the masculine journey.

464
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: When you said what can we offer men? I want

465
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: to circle back around and say we offer them hope.

466
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: We offer them hope that hey, look, I know it's

467
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: a mess, but I know a ton of guys who

468
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: have walked through this and it gets better. It gets better,

469
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: and I see you, you have what it takes. You

470
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: will not be conquered by this, You will not be

471
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: overcome by this. Like we offer them hope, which hope

472
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: is a tricky thing, but I think it's something that

473
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: it's necessary, Like we've got to have, especially in where

474
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: we are now, to get through what we're getting through,

475
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: we have to have That's why when you said that,

476
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: asked that question of like what if we started over,

477
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, that's that's questioning my hope. But

478
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: that whole idea is something that like can be tied

479
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: to both men and women. But Yeah, I'm sitting here

480
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: thinking about the men in my life and the men

481
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: that I've worked with, and and it is a little

482
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: painful because I'm also thinking when you said I've known

483
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: men who've walked through this or I've seen this, we

484
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: also need men who are willing to step up and

485
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: talk about that. Yeah, let me offer some good news

486
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: because if you if you're only hearing the cultural news,

487
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: the story looks pretty bad, and the gender story and

488
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: the and the man's story looks pretty bad. But because

489
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: of our vantage point, because of kind of where we're

490
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: situated at Wild at Heart, we're in contact with thousands

491
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: of men all around the world, and we're in contact

492
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: with a lot of the men's quote movement around the world,

493
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: and gang there is phenomenal news, like we know so

494
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: many men who are getting wholehearted, who are loving then kind, strong,

495
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: generous guys, marriages transform, families rescued. Really, like, this is

496
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: one of the great untold stories of the world right

497
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: now because it's not making the news but other son events,

498
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: father daughter events, men's fellowships, bands of brothers. I'm telling

499
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: you there is this global thing going on all around

500
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: the world of a recovery of authentic masculinity and fathering

501
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: and men becoming wholehearted. I'm just there to tell you

502
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: there's good news, folks, and thank you. I needed to

503
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: hear that too. But when you use the word authentic masculinity,

504
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: what is that? Can you like define that? What does

505
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: that really mean? Because when I hear masculinity, I'm like,

506
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: in my head, I have this picture of this man

507
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: with like a hammer and like, I don't know, like

508
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: strong fixing a car or something. So what is authentic masculinity?

509
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: Ladies listening to this, the best thing you can do

510
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: is read Wild at Heart. Can't tell you the number

511
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: of women who have come to us and said, oh,

512
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: now I understand my son. Now I understand my thirteen

513
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: year old. Now I understand my husband. So we can

514
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: trying a podcast, But that's a pretty big question. What

515
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: is authentic masculinity. So I'm a person of faith. I'm

516
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: coming at this from a faith perspective, and I would say,

517
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: look at Jesus Christ for what is authentic masculinity. You

518
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: will see in him moments of unbelievable strength, unbelievable courage,

519
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: and in the next moment incredible tenderness, compassion, and kindness.

520
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: It's not either or right. Jesus is not a lumberjack,

521
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: but he's also not a pansy like. He's a man

522
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: of profound strength, but he's also a man of very

523
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: in touch with his emotions and and very aware of

524
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: the need of people around him. So what is authentic masculinity.

525
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: I would say it's this. It is strength on behalf

526
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: of others. So when the when the firefighters ran up

527
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: the stairs in the World Trade Center on nine eleven,

528
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: when everyone else was running down, that's authentic masculinity. I

529
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: will lay my life down for you. I have a

530
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: genuine strength, but I don't use it for narcissism. I

531
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: use it for your good and on your behalf. That

532
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: was the best metaphor you think you could have given me,

533
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: because I think that that is breaking down a lot

534
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: of my own bias in my head that I'm working

535
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: through through this conversation. But yeah, I am. I am

536
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: really strong, but it's not about me. It's not about me, right,

537
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: and if, oh my gosh, if we could all take

538
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: that on then even circling back to the pandemic, Yeah,

539
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: this is really hard because this is really bumping up

540
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: against my need to be something and do something and

541
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: fix something. But when you really dial it back, it's like, well,

542
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: it's not about me, So this isn't about me making

543
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: sure you think that I am being able to do

544
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: something for you. The real sadness in the fear if

545
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: you really tap into it for men and women, but

546
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: for men is if you're authentic, and that is This

547
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: is really hard because I can't use my strength to

548
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: show up for other people. That's what I'm hearing. You

549
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: took away my fundamental purposes. Right. I'm here to help,

550
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: but I can't help since we are circling back. I

551
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: will say when I was in high school, I was

552
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: really into young Life, which is when you said like

553
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: camps were shut down and all of that. That brought

554
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: back of like, oh my gosh, I think about how

555
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: many kids can't go to young Life camp, which was

556
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: life It was life changing for me. And during one

557
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: of my trips, my leader gave me Captivating and I

558
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: think I read it maybe three times. All of my

559
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: friends read it, and then the counter to that was, hey,

560
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: you like that did that help you understand yourself? Okay?

561
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: Now read wild at Heart and that was like the

562
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: next step for everybody. And as a high schooler, it

563
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: was life changing. But even as I'm sitting here in

564
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: my thirties, I'm like, I need to reread this book now.

565
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: So I say that because since there are a lot

566
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: of women who are are listening, like it's so helped.

567
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: I think that the thought was like, well, Captivatings for

568
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: women and wild Hearts for men, But it's like, don't

569
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: we want to know the experience of both because we

570
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: have to live with each other? Right. And So with

571
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: the new expanded version of this going back full full circle,

572
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: because now I'm in my head like, well, I've got

573
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: to reread it, and I'm gonna read this new I

574
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,719
Speaker 1: needed all the new information. What is going to be

575
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: helpful for us in this new journey, whether it's our

576
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: first time or second time opening up a book like this.

577
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: So we did it with both wild at heart and

578
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: captivating by the way. We went Yeah, we went back

579
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: and updated them. We just wanted to make sure that

580
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: it spoke to the cultural moment, because you know, cultures

581
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: used to change generation to generation. Our culture is changing

582
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: decade by decade every two years or so. Like it's

583
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: it's just yeah, it's pretty remarkable. So we wanted to

584
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: make sure, you know, for example, there were the issues

585
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: that parents face with technology and kids and screen time.

586
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: That wasn't an issue when we first wrote that, but

587
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: it's an issue now. You know that the availability of

588
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: sexual information to young young girls and young boys now

589
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: like that was not as prevalent, and so we wanted

590
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: to make sure we could speak into the current cultural

591
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: moment some of these timeless truths about the healing of

592
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: the wounded nous. You know, how the masculine soul and

593
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: the feminine soular strengthened what you needed in your childhood

594
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: that you might not have gotten that you can get now,

595
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: because that's the message of hope, is that you're not stuck. Right, So,

596
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, we all got dealt a bad hand of cards.

597
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: Even if you had fabulous parents. The world is very

598
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: broken and there were disappointments and heartaches and losses and

599
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: betrayals and all those things that happened in the course

600
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: of moving from girl to woman and boy to man.

601
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: And the hope is and the healing is available. It's available.

602
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: It's why you and I do what we do. Yeah,

603
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: and any you saying that too is We didn't really

604
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 1: talk a lot about this, but with the the technology

605
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: and the phones and all the whatever, the rise in

606
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: sex addiction has been insane. And I remember ten years

607
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: ago when I started as an intern, I remember being like,

608
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: what is that? What we don't we didn't learn about

609
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: that in school, Like what is that? And now it's

610
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: like it's so common. It is so I don't even

611
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: bat an eye when I have a client that I'm like, oh, here,

612
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: this is what we're dealing with. Because we've grown up

613
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 1: in this generation where we can have anything at the

614
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: tip of our fingers. And the other thing is and

615
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: this I have a lot of my own anxiety talking

616
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: about as a therapist because I tried to come from

617
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: a place of non judgment and care and understanding. But

618
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: what we have allowed to be okay in our culture

619
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: as we are progressing, I think a lot of it's

620
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: awesome and a lot of it's really scary. I know, personally,

621
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: I think we give too much wiggle room for things

622
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: that we're doing, behaviors being okay, I'm thinking about like

623
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: the Grammys. I watch with my friends a couple of

624
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and I like left after like one of

625
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: the performances because I was like, what is this doing

626
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 1: on TV? Because there's like an eight year old somewhere

627
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: watching this and it's fine, there's no like nothing is

628
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: blurred out, nothing, and it's such an appropriate content and

629
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: what it makes me think of, expectually when it comes

630
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: to the sexual part of it, it's taken this thing

631
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: that is so special and so important in relationships and

632
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: made it like entertainment. And it's sometimes a joke. I

633
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: don't know where I'm going with that, but I have

634
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings about that stuff. And then having

635
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: to help people rework some of their like stuckness and

636
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: their journey to become like the person they are created

637
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: to be. I feel like I have to walk this

638
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: line of like, don't put your beliefs on them, but

639
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: also this is really messy. Yeah, yeah, it's a time

640
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: of profound human brokenness. Just profound and and so for

641
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: your listeners, I want to say this, wholeheartedness is no

642
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: longer an option to live in a cultural a moment

643
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: like cars. Wholeheartedness is your immune system. Literally, it is

644
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: because of your body and the way your body and

645
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: brain interact and your heart. But wholeheartedness. The more whole

646
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: you are as a woman as a man, the less

647
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: opportunity all of the madness has upon So pursue wholeheartedness.

648
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: I like that. So we're gonna end with that. Then

649
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: that's good. Um, And what I'm so grateful for you

650
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: doing this, and and you're not only just bringing up

651
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: some feelings, which is good for me as a therapist.

652
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: I like to be stimulated, and I like, I did

653
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: it last week too. I've had a conversation with somebody

654
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh now I can't wait to go

655
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: talk to my own therapist about this. So I love that.

656
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: So thank you for being here, Thank you for doing

657
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: what you do. I do want to ask how if

658
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: people are listening to this and they're like this is

659
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: I need more? I need more? Where would you like

660
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: them to buy your book? Where do they find it?

661
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: Or if they just want to connect to you or

662
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: there's there ways to do that. Let me let me

663
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: give the easiest thing. Wild at Heart dot org is

664
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: our website and you can find on there this beautiful

665
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: thing called the Captivating Experience. It's six films that take

666
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: you through a healing journey. It's free. Or's something called

667
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: the Wild at Heart Experience. Six films for men. You

668
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: can watch them together as a couple. You can. You know,

669
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: if you come to our website you find these beautiful

670
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: experiences that that will take you to a greater wholeheartedness. Yeah, okay,

671
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thanks Catherine,