WEBVTT - A Discussion Part Il 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:09.160 Investigators believe Coburger killed Kayleigansalves, Madison Mogan, Zeyner, Kernodle, and 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.960 Ethan Chapin inside of a rented home not far from 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.840 the University of Idaho campus. At the time of the murders, 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.639 Coburger was studying at Washington State University, which is just 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.440 a few miles away from the crime scene. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:26.080 Outside Coberger's apartment in Pullman, Washington, detectives removing boxes and 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.840 bags from the apartment. They just kept coming out with 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.240 more and more stuff and loading it into evidence vans. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.599 But in that list of what they brought out, they 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.519 do not list knife in that evidence list. 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:47.200 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:53.120 and iHeartRadio, Episode twelve A Discussion Part two with forensic 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.640 expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.160 KT Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.920 In this episode, the producers Stephanie Lydecker and Connor Powell 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.160 speak with forensic analyst Joseph Scott Morgan to discuss the 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:19.960 latest information about the Idaho murders. Here they are now. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:26.160 Talking with the Great death investigator and forensics expert Joseph 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:30.280 Scott Morgan, also the host of body Bags, our favorite 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.000 show here. And then of course Connor Powell who's been 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.479 executive producing and also contributing on the Idaho Massacre podcast, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.600 also making the documentary which Joseph is also appearing in, 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.280 and being knee deep in this case with Brian Coberger 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.440 and the tragedy in Idaho that there does seem to 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.080 be some similarities. You know, there's obviously very big key differences, 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.360 but the large scale of these cases, the idea of 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.520 such an overkill in both cases is probably what has 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.560 drawn us to them so deeply. And you know, Joseph was, 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.000 frankly when this case first hit the press, or when 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:12.200 these murders first happened, Joseph, we were communicating real time, 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:17.120 and you were the first person to really not only 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.160 be covering the case but also in many ways solve it. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.799 You had said the word knife sheath before I even 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.680 knew what a knife sheath was. To be honest, you 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.079 called it from day one and have been the leading 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.280 pundit speaking about it as an expert and also as 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.240 a human and have done it so beautifully and so 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.560 important obviously doing that with pikedon as well. What can 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.639 we talk about that sort of shows how these cases 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.240 do have some crossover. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.600 I've got a word I want to throw out here 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.920 at the beginning as we're chatting, and I think it's important. 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.880 I was thinking about, you know, similarities, and there are 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.560 many similarities. That word is bold. Kind of an innocuous word. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.280 It's used quite a bit thrown around in media, but 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.120 in parlance of death investigation. When you think of bold, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:06.120 that can imply very many things. It goes to the scope, 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.840 It goes to even if it's misplaced, it goes to 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.239 intestinal fortitude, I think on the part of the individual 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.760 that's going to do it, because they are singularly focused 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.320 on an objective. And I think that we see that 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:21.880 displayed in both the Piked and massacre, as well as 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.240 what's going on at the University of Idaho and that 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.120 small little town up there. And this is another piece 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.239 to this that again their rural, both of these locations. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.840 I don't the Good Lord Almighty couldn't send down a 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.200 thunderbolt and it would be any more shocking in these 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.840 two places, I think, because who saw this coming? No 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.360 one did? You know? Back when Pikedon occurred, and certainly 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.080 in Idaho. You know, who could have even have anticipated this. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.640 I was just talking the other day with my wife, 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.320 you know, reflecting back about what were we doing. You 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.480 know what I was doing. I'm college professor in a 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.280 town that's very similar in size, sitting there thinking, just 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.400 get me to Thanksgiving break. I do that every year. 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.240 I've had enough. And those people there at the University 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.280 of Idaho, we're thinking the same thing, just get me 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.040 to Thanksgiving break. I just want to go home for 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.640 turkey and dressing that just I'm so sick of these 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:13.640 people around here. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.760 And then this happens, and the level of depravity that 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.159 a person has to have to pull this off. And 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.200 you know, we've said this many times, and then air 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.560 quotes go back to the real world thereafter, as if 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.880 nothing happened. If in fact what Brian Cooberger is accused 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.960 of is true, is impossible to wrap our brains around, right. 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.080 But from a forensic standpoint, you've said this since day one, 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.200 and frankly before it had even hit the press. Just 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.800 about the level of blood that was at the scene 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:47.520 in Idaho, in Moscow when this crime occurred, was really unparalleled, 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:52.080 except for potentially the tragedy in Pike County, where again 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:57.760 the level of overkill was really unimaginable. 0:04:58.320 --> 0:04:59.880 Yeah, it is. And you know, we have to think 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.279 about this is not done. Neither one of these horrible 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.720 events occurred. We talked about rural. It's not like these 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.080 occurred out in an open field and a pasture somewhere. 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.159 These happened in structures. And what do we think about 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.520 when we think about structure, Well, we go home to 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.800 be home, we go home to have privacy, we go 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.599 home to be left alone. And when you let that 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:25.839 sink in and you think about this level of violence 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:29.200 that was perpetrated in these two environments, it's one thing 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.320 to kill in an open field or out in an 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.119 environment that's so so far out there that maybe certain 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.839 elements might be lost. Not in these cases, not in 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.760 either one of them. You have what's referred to as 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.760 containment of evidence. Therefore, if we take that train of 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.000 logic and we think about the containment of evidence therein 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.400 during the dynamics of both of these events, you know, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.720 you have to know that at least some elements of 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:02.040 these tragedies wind back up on the perpetrators as we 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.839 saw in piked In, I think to a great degree, 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:10.480 and what I believe had occurred in Idaho as well. 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:12.960 It you know, you talked about the blood bath. You 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.080 know piked In involved firearms. This is something different. This 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.800 is as much overkill as is involved in Pikedon, with 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.279 multiple gunshot wounds, with multiple victims. These sorts of things, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.479 when you're talking about sharp force injuries, these are the 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:34.320 types of things that require such anger and such fury 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.240 because you're you're in close proximity within a home or 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.880 within a place that becomes home. I think back to 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.919 when I was an undergraduate in college, the places that 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.920 I occupied it as an undergraduate student, temporarily that became 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.040 a home. They were my space, right And with these kids, 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.159 these four kids, and they were kids that were in 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:57.520 the shared home, it was their home temporarily. And I 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.760 think about, particularly that scene in the bedroom where we 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.159 have two victims in a bed and they're actually co 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.120 sleeping in this bed where this infamous sheath has now 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.440 come into play. It was a bigger bed. And my 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:17.240 only thought thinking about kind of the perpetrator interacting with 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.400 the environment, would that person would have to have been 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.240 compelled to have gotten up on the bed. So when 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.480 you begin to think about intimacy and you begin to 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:31.400 think about anger, you have containment in that environment where 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.520 these poor young women are being stabbed to death on 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.000 this surface in a very frenetic type of event, and 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.880 it would been I've likened it to the view of 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.920 a sewing machine needle going in and out, up and 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.480 down like this and striking only variably, you know, because 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.320 the arm is not going to act human arm is 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:53.800 not going to act that same way. It's not going 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.880 to be in the same spot. It'll be a variety 0:07:55.920 --> 0:08:00.640 of spots. But yet there's something very mechanical about it. Closed, 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.600 it's confined. But we do know this. We have blood 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.120 that has been shed, so therefore it would have been 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.120 transferred onto the perpetrator into the weapon perhaps that was 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:15.560 being used. It's key here, I think that they're not talking. 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.040 They haven't really mentioned at this point about what the 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.840 DNA that was on this the snap as they refer 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.560 to it, the thumb snap that has to be actuated 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.640 in order to release this knife. The blood would have 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.880 supersaturated the surfaces of this knife. It would have been 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.120 on the leading edges of the blade itself. It would 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.920 have been on the hilt, the hilt guard that runs 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.600 here that protects your hand when you're stabbing it. These 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.520 knives have a curious texture on the handle. Many of 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.199 them were made from early on. These are military style knives, 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.680 and we heard that early on military style knife, honeting 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.600 knife and all that, and then they land on K 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.480 bar and kbar traditionally. You know, our troops use them 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.680 in World War II. That's where the gain great fame, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:05.360 the Navy, the Coastguard, but most famously the Marine Corps. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.160 And they're made for hand to hand combat. They're very heavy, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.400 heavy in sense of the durability, the way they're made, 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.320 and so the handle that was manufactured at that time 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.080 was almost like a wrapped leather that's kind of brushed 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.480 that would contain Now we don't know what the nature 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.440 of this particular handle is, but just suffice it to 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.280 say that their blood, the victims blood, would have transferred 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.920 onto that weapon. The curious thing is the two young 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.920 victims that were in the bedroom together. I've always wondered 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.720 how if there was any cross contamination of DNA that 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.160 was brought from those victims upstairs, which I believe were 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.360 the first victims, because I think that one of them 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.439 at least was the target of this massacre. How much 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:52.560 of that DNA was transmitted to the other two victims, 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:58.079 Ethan and Xana down on the second floor, because it's 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.760 almost like an inoculation, if you will. It's kind of 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.440 a weird term, but you're going and you're introducing this 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:09.079 biologic element into into these two downstairs. Who knows if 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.600 they were intended, but it would seem that there was 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:13.960 no an awareness that they were there in dwelling that 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.240 structure at the time. But again, we don't have all 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.120 of that information, but you've got this kind of sharing 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.280 of evidence. Now how much of it can be tied 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.840 back to the accused coburger, We don't know at this point. Okay, 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.280 a lot of guff a lot of stuff going back 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.680 and forth, as lawyers do. And I thought greatly about, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.480 you know, why on the snap itself, would you have 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.439 a deposition of DNA there these snaps on these knives 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:46.040 when you're attempting to utilize them, it's almost like somebody 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:48.719 Let's say somebody has a firearm and they're going to 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.440 do something called dry firing, and dry firing means that 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.920 you take a gun that is unloaded, and you go 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.360 and buy a new weapon. You want to know what 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.480 the trigger pull feels like. You know how many pounds 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.920 of pressure does it take to actually the trigger as 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:02.720 you pull it and drop the hammer and all those 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:04.760 sorts of things. If it's semi automatic, you rack it 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:06.560 back and forth, you get the feel of it. And 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.560 I have this kind of vision of the individual that's 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:14.120 using this knife sheath that may contain the murder weapon, 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.360 sitting in a chair somewhere flipping it with their thumb. 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.360 How much time, how much speed does it require to 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.440 flip that thing and clear it from the sheath. And then, perhaps, 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.800 just perhaps, if you're in such a frenzy, sexually motivated 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.960 or just motivated by anger, you forget the sheath. You 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.720 drop it because now your focus is there before you, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.840 lining before you, as you may occupy the same space, 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.679 and you go to work, and now the only thing 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:41.360 you can think of is you feel the warmth of 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.040 that blood that's on your person. You've heard the screams, 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.760 you've heard the mones, you've heard those last gasp of 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:48.960 breath leave the body. The next thing you want to 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.520 do is get the hell out of the place. But 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.559 what happens you go down that staircase, that interior staircase 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.000 leading from the third floor down to the second floor. 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.280 You make that hard left and you're head and were 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.160 those sliders that are there? Somebody pokes their head out, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.920 possibly Ethan. There was a sound that was heard. We 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.000 believe that at this point in time, we know Zana 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.839 was up she was on TikTok? So did she stick 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.200 her head out of the door, did Ethan stick his 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.920 head out of the door? How many injuries did they sustain? 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.559 Was it overkill, just like the two young women upstairs? 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.240 Or was it quick just to put separation between yourself 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.640 and this horror show that you've created and then get 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.720 out of the place as quickly as you can because 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.559 everything didn't go as planned. And when we reflect back 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.960 to Piked and I don't know that everything when is 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.560 planned there. You can plan forever, man, you can, but 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.440 you can't anticipate these unknowns, these unseen things that are 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.439 going to arise. You know, somebody's willingness to fight back, 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.640 or maybe it's a mother cradling her child while she's 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.640 nursing her in bed and suddenly you hear you know 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.360 where there's an awareness that there's somebody in the room 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.240 and then bam. You know, how does that affect the 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.480 shooter piked in? You know, when they hear that gasp 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:04.880 or they sense that there's an awareness that they're there. 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.360 Because they've tried to be stealthy, They've tried to defeat 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.800 every measure that there is electronically, They've dumped phones, they've 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.280 used alternate vehicles, all these sorts of things, and you 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.880 begin to think about this, always have to plan for 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.800 those things that you can't anticipate, and how do you 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.600 plan for that way you don't? And when you're committing 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.360 an illegal act like this, you know, it's one thing 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.800 when a military goes in, our police officer goes in 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.360 and they're trying to execute a warrant and they're within 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.720 the boundaries of the law. But now you're doing something 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.720 that you know good and well is against the law 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.920 and is the most horrible thing that you can possibly 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.120 participate in. What other layer does that add of stress 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.400 when you're trying to put yourself and you know, put 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.000 distance between yourself and the crimes. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.120 So, Josef, I just want to ask you something about 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.360 the nice sheath button, because I envision it sort of 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.600 what the way you did, which is at some point 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.640 he was opening, opening and closing, and he did it 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:04.880 without the glove. He probably did it at home when 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.959 he first bought it. And I my thinking is that 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.960 his DNA got on the inside of the button, not 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.920 the outside, because he probably wiped down the entire knife 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.920 sheath and everything, but he forgot when he closed it 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.000 not to get on the inside. And if you push 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.120 too hard, you know, you can leave a little bit 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:23.680 of DNA, You can leave a little bit of skin 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.160 or something like that inside the snap. Is that kind 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:27.320 of what you were thinking as well? 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.160 I had contemplating that because the snaps have leading edges. 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.720 If you're looking at it, you know, face on for 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.640 people that are listening to us right now, if you're 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.720 looking at the snap, the domed we have the dome 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:41.720 surface of the exterior of the snap, and then if 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:43.760 you flip it over, you look and you see this 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.640 kind of concave interior of the thing, and it's got 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.440 an edge all the way around it. And I have 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.760 thought about this Connor that perhaps when he's actuating this thing, 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:55.760 you know, he's sitting in a I don't know his 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.360 Barco lounger his house. He's watching television or whatever the 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.840 hell he's doing, and he's sitting there and he's actually 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.120 in the same flipping it back and forth. It's one thing, 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.800 And isn't that interesting because that's one that's one place 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:12.160 that you would not think of to clean or wipe 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.880 down that it kind of catches and rubs and takes 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.480 away that sample. Maybe it is touch DNA, which you know, 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.760 we we've talked about before at length, but just as 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.800 kind of a refresher. You know, touch touch DNA originates 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.040 from dead skin cells, and we sleught thousands of these things. 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.160 That's why people put lotion on. So how much more 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.800 so at a microscopic level if we can see, if 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:38.920 we can look at our hands and say, Alli, you know, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.680 I got dry skin, I need to cracked and weathered 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:42.960 and all this stuff. I need to put some lotion, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.480 all right, how much more so to microscopic level, you know, 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.520 we're scraping off these dead, dead skin cells that are 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.960 falling off into that kind of convex area and it 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.440 could hold on to it, and I you know, I 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.000 think about the technician perhaps that was in that environment 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.440 that you know, had the sheath. Can I adge that 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.240 moment when they have the sheath and they don't have 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.200 the knife, and they're thinking and all the other evidence 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.440 that came out of that home up there just off 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.200 the campus University of Idaho, they're looking at them, said, 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.920 be careful. This is sacred. This is what we have. 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.560 This is our offering right here to you. How are 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.440 you going to treat it? And so the scientist that's 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.440 taking a look at this thing is they're not just 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.040 going to go in randomly to use this thing to 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.280 swab it, you know, with the saline solution and you know, 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.200 just kind of randomly do it. Now, they're going to 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.480 break this thing down into regions and they'll enumerate it, 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.920 like just randomly, just off the top of my head. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.840 They'll say this is section one, section two, three, four, five, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.200 and each region will have a number and they'll go 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.520 through and swab those those areas to see what they 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.280 come up with. Now, they'll do a control swab too 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.280 as well, just to demonstrate, you know, it's a control 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.000 that you use in the lab. And then they go 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.760 to every region and for some reason, as you pointed out, 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:04.240 come and you're right, you are, they get to that snap. Now, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.440 why would it be that on the smooth maybe metallic 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.600 leading edge on the exterior. All other surfaces are clean 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.760 or are absent any kind of trace DNA. But yet 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.000 they still recover it from there. I think that that 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.520 might be shielding. It might be protection. And it doesn't 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.960 matter how many times you snap it. If they take 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.000 that swab and they run it on the inside of 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.840 that lip, they're going to find things. And we even 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.080 find this with Layton prints. When people I go through 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.639 an exercise. It's a college professor that teaches forensics, and 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.919 I tell my students and they always hate me for 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.520 this because they think about it for days and days afterwards. 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.080 I say, when we're doing latent prints, I say, Okay, 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.479 when you leave campus today, leave with this thought in mind. 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.240 Think about how you get in and out of your vehicle. 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.040 How do you leverage your body in and out of 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.720 your vehicle. Most people don't think about that. They don't 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:52.560 think about the fact that they have to use their key. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.440 Perhaps they have an old door lock on it, or 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.720 they're going to hit the buzzer. Oh and by the way, 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.919 they have to stick their fingers underneath and open the 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.720 door handle. You know, actuate the door handle, then grab 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.920 the bar, the support bar side next to the window. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:08.720 Maybe they'll push it up and some people will push 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.800 on the interior glass. Then they're going to have to 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.000 leverage their self into it to sit down. You're gripping 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:17.120 multiple layers. Most people don't think about that, and that's 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.760 that's the nature of us as humans. We go through 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.280 these repetitive tasks all the time. We don't think about 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.160 where we're coming in contact. That as a forensics person 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.159 is where we can find those little land mines that 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.680 perpetrators have not thought about. And Connore you thought about one. 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.840 So there you go. I've actually referred to the car 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.399 as a rolling crime scene. So what may have happened 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.000 with that? Did he plan so much that he had 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.439 a change of clothes that he changed into before he 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.639 mounted back up in that car and then he tossed 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.600 the clothing? Remember there was a big stink over I 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.840 guess it was the Tuesday after the Wednesday, after the 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.320 primary crime scene had been worked, you know, on that Sunday, 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.360 you know, that morning morning up, and they were talking 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.800 about trash pick up and how they had not checked 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.200 all the trash cans and I've often wondered did they 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.720 miss something? Did they miss something? And it's mass confusion 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.880 around the campus. You got kids, his parents are calling 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.480 them saying leave. And I'm sure that not all details 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.119 were Did they go through and check every single trash 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.680 can in that little community. Did they look for clothes 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.840 that had been you know, tossed aside, perhaps in a 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.720 bag somewhere, Because if if he is this criminal mastermind, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.120 which you know, the media is trying to portray him, 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.920 as you know, because he was working on a PhD 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.160 in criminology, which is not forensic science, did he think 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.720 enough to show up with a change of clothes, you know? 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.200 And I think that that's an interesting question. And the 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.320 shoes as well. There were early there was an early 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.840 conversation about a pair of vans where there was some 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:50.760 kind of print that was left in the hallway and 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.119 it turns out somebody else was in vans in the house. 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.760 And they never said what kind of media that the 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.600 print was left behind. Was it dirt, was it dust? 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.479 Was it blood that left this pattern? But there were 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.680 other vans that were left there, and there were all 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.720 kinds of photographs floating around for a period of tom 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.399 You know, demonstrating different types of vans you know that 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.399 are out there that people wear. You know, it's not 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:13.280 just surfer dudes. 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.320 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:18.720 a moment. 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.520 One of the things that we talked about in one 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.679 of the episodes, there was a mention, and this was 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:32.959 just stuck out. There's a mention that there was no 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.840 shower curtain in his apartment, and I think Jeff and 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:40.080 I were talking about speculating that could he have possibly 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.480 taken the shower curtain put it in his car seat 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.560 so that when he was driving, essentially there was some 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.480 type of bubble And maybe that's the reason why there's 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.840 no shower curtain in his apartment. Maybe he was just cheap, 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.280 poor student. He never bothered, he couldn't care less. But 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:56.320 I mean that's the type of thing you're saying that, 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.200 you know, if he's thinking about he's planning this stuff out, 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.359 that he could have thought about bringing in a change 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.600 of clothes, having multiple pairs of gloves so that you're 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:06.560 tearing off the dirty one, putting in a bag to 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.040 dispose of later, but you still have another pair that 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:10.840 is clean, or something like that as well. Right, Like 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:12.760 that's kind of what you were talking about. 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.560 Yeah, creating that barrier that's going to separate you from 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.840 those cloth seats. And I remember seeing I remember looking 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.320