1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Investigators believe Coburger killed Kayleigansalves, Madison Mogan, Zeyner, Kernodle, and 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: Ethan Chapin inside of a rented home not far from 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: the University of Idaho campus. At the time of the murders, 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: Coburger was studying at Washington State University, which is just 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: a few miles away from the crime scene. 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: Outside Coberger's apartment in Pullman, Washington, detectives removing boxes and 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: bags from the apartment. They just kept coming out with 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: more and more stuff and loading it into evidence vans. 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 2: But in that list of what they brought out, they 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: do not list knife in that evidence list. 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Episode twelve A Discussion Part two with forensic 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 14 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: KT Studios, with Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. 15 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 3: In this episode, the producers Stephanie Lydecker and Connor Powell 16 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 3: speak with forensic analyst Joseph Scott Morgan to discuss the 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 3: latest information about the Idaho murders. Here they are now. 18 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 4: Talking with the Great death investigator and forensics expert Joseph 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 4: Scott Morgan, also the host of body Bags, our favorite 20 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 4: show here. And then of course Connor Powell who's been 21 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 4: executive producing and also contributing on the Idaho Massacre podcast, 22 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 4: also making the documentary which Joseph is also appearing in, 23 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 4: and being knee deep in this case with Brian Coberger 24 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 4: and the tragedy in Idaho that there does seem to 25 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 4: be some similarities. You know, there's obviously very big key differences, 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 4: but the large scale of these cases, the idea of 27 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 4: such an overkill in both cases is probably what has 28 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 4: drawn us to them so deeply. And you know, Joseph was, 29 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 4: frankly when this case first hit the press, or when 30 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 4: these murders first happened, Joseph, we were communicating real time, 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 4: and you were the first person to really not only 32 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 4: be covering the case but also in many ways solve it. 33 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 4: You had said the word knife sheath before I even 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 4: knew what a knife sheath was. To be honest, you 35 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 4: called it from day one and have been the leading 36 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 4: pundit speaking about it as an expert and also as 37 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 4: a human and have done it so beautifully and so 38 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 4: important obviously doing that with pikedon as well. What can 39 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 4: we talk about that sort of shows how these cases 40 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 4: do have some crossover. 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 5: I've got a word I want to throw out here 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 5: at the beginning as we're chatting, and I think it's important. 43 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 5: I was thinking about, you know, similarities, and there are 44 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 5: many similarities. That word is bold. Kind of an innocuous word. 45 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 5: It's used quite a bit thrown around in media, but 46 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 5: in parlance of death investigation. When you think of bold, 47 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 5: that can imply very many things. It goes to the scope, 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 5: It goes to even if it's misplaced, it goes to 49 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 5: intestinal fortitude, I think on the part of the individual 50 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 5: that's going to do it, because they are singularly focused 51 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 5: on an objective. And I think that we see that 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 5: displayed in both the Piked and massacre, as well as 53 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 5: what's going on at the University of Idaho and that 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 5: small little town up there. And this is another piece 55 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 5: to this that again their rural, both of these locations. 56 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 5: I don't the Good Lord Almighty couldn't send down a 57 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 5: thunderbolt and it would be any more shocking in these 58 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 5: two places, I think, because who saw this coming? No 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 5: one did? You know? Back when Pikedon occurred, and certainly 60 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 5: in Idaho. You know, who could have even have anticipated this. 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 5: I was just talking the other day with my wife, 62 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 5: you know, reflecting back about what were we doing. You 63 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 5: know what I was doing. I'm college professor in a 64 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 5: town that's very similar in size, sitting there thinking, just 65 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 5: get me to Thanksgiving break. I do that every year. 66 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 5: I've had enough. And those people there at the University 67 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 5: of Idaho, we're thinking the same thing, just get me 68 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 5: to Thanksgiving break. I just want to go home for 69 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 5: turkey and dressing that just I'm so sick of these 70 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 5: people around here. 71 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 4: And then this happens, and the level of depravity that 72 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 4: a person has to have to pull this off. And 73 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 4: you know, we've said this many times, and then air 74 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 4: quotes go back to the real world thereafter, as if 75 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 4: nothing happened. If in fact what Brian Cooberger is accused 76 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 4: of is true, is impossible to wrap our brains around, right. 77 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 4: But from a forensic standpoint, you've said this since day one, 78 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 4: and frankly before it had even hit the press. Just 79 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 4: about the level of blood that was at the scene 80 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 4: in Idaho, in Moscow when this crime occurred, was really unparalleled, 81 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 4: except for potentially the tragedy in Pike County, where again 82 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 4: the level of overkill was really unimaginable. 83 00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is. And you know, we have to think 84 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 5: about this is not done. Neither one of these horrible 85 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 5: events occurred. We talked about rural. It's not like these 86 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 5: occurred out in an open field and a pasture somewhere. 87 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 5: These happened in structures. And what do we think about 88 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 5: when we think about structure, Well, we go home to 89 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 5: be home, we go home to have privacy, we go 90 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 5: home to be left alone. And when you let that 91 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 5: sink in and you think about this level of violence 92 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 5: that was perpetrated in these two environments, it's one thing 93 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 5: to kill in an open field or out in an 94 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,119 Speaker 5: environment that's so so far out there that maybe certain 95 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 5: elements might be lost. Not in these cases, not in 96 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 5: either one of them. You have what's referred to as 97 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 5: containment of evidence. Therefore, if we take that train of 98 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 5: logic and we think about the containment of evidence therein 99 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 5: during the dynamics of both of these events, you know, 100 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 5: you have to know that at least some elements of 101 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 5: these tragedies wind back up on the perpetrators as we 102 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 5: saw in piked In, I think to a great degree, 103 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 5: and what I believe had occurred in Idaho as well. 104 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 5: It you know, you talked about the blood bath. You 105 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 5: know piked In involved firearms. This is something different. This 106 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 5: is as much overkill as is involved in Pikedon, with 107 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 5: multiple gunshot wounds, with multiple victims. These sorts of things, 108 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 5: when you're talking about sharp force injuries, these are the 109 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 5: types of things that require such anger and such fury 110 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 5: because you're you're in close proximity within a home or 111 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 5: within a place that becomes home. I think back to 112 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 5: when I was an undergraduate in college, the places that 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 5: I occupied it as an undergraduate student, temporarily that became 114 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 5: a home. They were my space, right And with these kids, 115 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 5: these four kids, and they were kids that were in 116 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 5: the shared home, it was their home temporarily. And I 117 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 5: think about, particularly that scene in the bedroom where we 118 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 5: have two victims in a bed and they're actually co 119 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 5: sleeping in this bed where this infamous sheath has now 120 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 5: come into play. It was a bigger bed. And my 121 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 5: only thought thinking about kind of the perpetrator interacting with 122 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 5: the environment, would that person would have to have been 123 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 5: compelled to have gotten up on the bed. So when 124 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 5: you begin to think about intimacy and you begin to 125 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 5: think about anger, you have containment in that environment where 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 5: these poor young women are being stabbed to death on 127 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 5: this surface in a very frenetic type of event, and 128 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 5: it would been I've likened it to the view of 129 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 5: a sewing machine needle going in and out, up and 130 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 5: down like this and striking only variably, you know, because 131 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 5: the arm is not going to act human arm is 132 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 5: not going to act that same way. It's not going 133 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 5: to be in the same spot. It'll be a variety 134 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 5: of spots. But yet there's something very mechanical about it. Closed, 135 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 5: it's confined. But we do know this. We have blood 136 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 5: that has been shed, so therefore it would have been 137 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 5: transferred onto the perpetrator into the weapon perhaps that was 138 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 5: being used. It's key here, I think that they're not talking. 139 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 5: They haven't really mentioned at this point about what the 140 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 5: DNA that was on this the snap as they refer 141 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 5: to it, the thumb snap that has to be actuated 142 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 5: in order to release this knife. The blood would have 143 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 5: supersaturated the surfaces of this knife. It would have been 144 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 5: on the leading edges of the blade itself. It would 145 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 5: have been on the hilt, the hilt guard that runs 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 5: here that protects your hand when you're stabbing it. These 147 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 5: knives have a curious texture on the handle. Many of 148 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 5: them were made from early on. These are military style knives, 149 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 5: and we heard that early on military style knife, honeting 150 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 5: knife and all that, and then they land on K 151 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 5: bar and kbar traditionally. You know, our troops use them 152 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 5: in World War II. That's where the gain great fame, 153 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 5: the Navy, the Coastguard, but most famously the Marine Corps. 154 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 5: And they're made for hand to hand combat. They're very heavy, 155 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 5: heavy in sense of the durability, the way they're made, 156 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 5: and so the handle that was manufactured at that time 157 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 5: was almost like a wrapped leather that's kind of brushed 158 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 5: that would contain Now we don't know what the nature 159 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 5: of this particular handle is, but just suffice it to 160 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 5: say that their blood, the victims blood, would have transferred 161 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 5: onto that weapon. The curious thing is the two young 162 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 5: victims that were in the bedroom together. I've always wondered 163 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 5: how if there was any cross contamination of DNA that 164 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 5: was brought from those victims upstairs, which I believe were 165 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 5: the first victims, because I think that one of them 166 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 5: at least was the target of this massacre. How much 167 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 5: of that DNA was transmitted to the other two victims, 168 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 5: Ethan and Xana down on the second floor, because it's 169 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 5: almost like an inoculation, if you will. It's kind of 170 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 5: a weird term, but you're going and you're introducing this 171 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 5: biologic element into into these two downstairs. Who knows if 172 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 5: they were intended, but it would seem that there was 173 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 5: no an awareness that they were there in dwelling that 174 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 5: structure at the time. But again, we don't have all 175 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 5: of that information, but you've got this kind of sharing 176 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 5: of evidence. Now how much of it can be tied 177 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 5: back to the accused coburger, We don't know at this point. Okay, 178 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 5: a lot of guff a lot of stuff going back 179 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 5: and forth, as lawyers do. And I thought greatly about, 180 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 5: you know, why on the snap itself, would you have 181 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 5: a deposition of DNA there these snaps on these knives 182 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 5: when you're attempting to utilize them, it's almost like somebody 183 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 5: Let's say somebody has a firearm and they're going to 184 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 5: do something called dry firing, and dry firing means that 185 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 5: you take a gun that is unloaded, and you go 186 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 5: and buy a new weapon. You want to know what 187 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 5: the trigger pull feels like. You know how many pounds 188 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 5: of pressure does it take to actually the trigger as 189 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 5: you pull it and drop the hammer and all those 190 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 5: sorts of things. If it's semi automatic, you rack it 191 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 5: back and forth, you get the feel of it. And 192 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 5: I have this kind of vision of the individual that's 193 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 5: using this knife sheath that may contain the murder weapon, 194 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 5: sitting in a chair somewhere flipping it with their thumb. 195 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 5: How much time, how much speed does it require to 196 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 5: flip that thing and clear it from the sheath. And then, perhaps, 197 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 5: just perhaps, if you're in such a frenzy, sexually motivated 198 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 5: or just motivated by anger, you forget the sheath. You 199 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 5: drop it because now your focus is there before you, 200 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 5: lining before you, as you may occupy the same space, 201 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 5: and you go to work, and now the only thing 202 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 5: you can think of is you feel the warmth of 203 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 5: that blood that's on your person. You've heard the screams, 204 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 5: you've heard the mones, you've heard those last gasp of 205 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 5: breath leave the body. The next thing you want to 206 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 5: do is get the hell out of the place. But 207 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 5: what happens you go down that staircase, that interior staircase 208 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 5: leading from the third floor down to the second floor. 209 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 5: You make that hard left and you're head and were 210 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 5: those sliders that are there? Somebody pokes their head out, 211 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 5: possibly Ethan. There was a sound that was heard. We 212 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 5: believe that at this point in time, we know Zana 213 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 5: was up she was on TikTok? So did she stick 214 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 5: her head out of the door, did Ethan stick his 215 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 5: head out of the door? How many injuries did they sustain? 216 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 5: Was it overkill, just like the two young women upstairs? 217 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 5: Or was it quick just to put separation between yourself 218 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 5: and this horror show that you've created and then get 219 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 5: out of the place as quickly as you can because 220 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 5: everything didn't go as planned. And when we reflect back 221 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 5: to Piked and I don't know that everything when is 222 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 5: planned there. You can plan forever, man, you can, but 223 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 5: you can't anticipate these unknowns, these unseen things that are 224 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 5: going to arise. You know, somebody's willingness to fight back, 225 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 5: or maybe it's a mother cradling her child while she's 226 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 5: nursing her in bed and suddenly you hear you know 227 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 5: where there's an awareness that there's somebody in the room 228 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 5: and then bam. You know, how does that affect the 229 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 5: shooter piked in? You know, when they hear that gasp 230 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 5: or they sense that there's an awareness that they're there. 231 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 5: Because they've tried to be stealthy, They've tried to defeat 232 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 5: every measure that there is electronically, They've dumped phones, they've 233 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 5: used alternate vehicles, all these sorts of things, and you 234 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 5: begin to think about this, always have to plan for 235 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 5: those things that you can't anticipate, and how do you 236 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 5: plan for that way you don't? And when you're committing 237 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 5: an illegal act like this, you know, it's one thing 238 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 5: when a military goes in, our police officer goes in 239 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 5: and they're trying to execute a warrant and they're within 240 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 5: the boundaries of the law. But now you're doing something 241 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 5: that you know good and well is against the law 242 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 5: and is the most horrible thing that you can possibly 243 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 5: participate in. What other layer does that add of stress 244 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 5: when you're trying to put yourself and you know, put 245 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 5: distance between yourself and the crimes. 246 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 6: So, Josef, I just want to ask you something about 247 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 6: the nice sheath button, because I envision it sort of 248 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 6: what the way you did, which is at some point 249 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 6: he was opening, opening and closing, and he did it 250 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 6: without the glove. He probably did it at home when 251 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 6: he first bought it. And I my thinking is that 252 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 6: his DNA got on the inside of the button, not 253 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 6: the outside, because he probably wiped down the entire knife 254 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 6: sheath and everything, but he forgot when he closed it 255 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 6: not to get on the inside. And if you push 256 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 6: too hard, you know, you can leave a little bit 257 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 6: of DNA, You can leave a little bit of skin 258 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 6: or something like that inside the snap. Is that kind 259 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 6: of what you were thinking as well? 260 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 5: I had contemplating that because the snaps have leading edges. 261 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 5: If you're looking at it, you know, face on for 262 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 5: people that are listening to us right now, if you're 263 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 5: looking at the snap, the domed we have the dome 264 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 5: surface of the exterior of the snap, and then if 265 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 5: you flip it over, you look and you see this 266 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 5: kind of concave interior of the thing, and it's got 267 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 5: an edge all the way around it. And I have 268 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 5: thought about this Connor that perhaps when he's actuating this thing, 269 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 5: you know, he's sitting in a I don't know his 270 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 5: Barco lounger his house. He's watching television or whatever the 271 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: hell he's doing, and he's sitting there and he's actually 272 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 5: in the same flipping it back and forth. It's one thing, 273 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 5: And isn't that interesting because that's one that's one place 274 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 5: that you would not think of to clean or wipe 275 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 5: down that it kind of catches and rubs and takes 276 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 5: away that sample. Maybe it is touch DNA, which you know, 277 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 5: we we've talked about before at length, but just as 278 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 5: kind of a refresher. You know, touch touch DNA originates 279 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 5: from dead skin cells, and we sleught thousands of these things. 280 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 5: That's why people put lotion on. So how much more 281 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 5: so at a microscopic level if we can see, if 282 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 5: we can look at our hands and say, Alli, you know, 283 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 5: I got dry skin, I need to cracked and weathered 284 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 5: and all this stuff. I need to put some lotion, 285 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 5: all right, how much more so to microscopic level, you know, 286 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 5: we're scraping off these dead, dead skin cells that are 287 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 5: falling off into that kind of convex area and it 288 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 5: could hold on to it, and I you know, I 289 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 5: think about the technician perhaps that was in that environment 290 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 5: that you know, had the sheath. Can I adge that 291 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 5: moment when they have the sheath and they don't have 292 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 5: the knife, and they're thinking and all the other evidence 293 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 5: that came out of that home up there just off 294 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 5: the campus University of Idaho, they're looking at them, said, 295 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 5: be careful. This is sacred. This is what we have. 296 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 5: This is our offering right here to you. How are 297 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 5: you going to treat it? And so the scientist that's 298 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 5: taking a look at this thing is they're not just 299 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 5: going to go in randomly to use this thing to 300 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 5: swab it, you know, with the saline solution and you know, 301 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 5: just kind of randomly do it. Now, they're going to 302 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 5: break this thing down into regions and they'll enumerate it, 303 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 5: like just randomly, just off the top of my head. 304 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 5: They'll say this is section one, section two, three, four, five, 305 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 5: and each region will have a number and they'll go 306 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 5: through and swab those those areas to see what they 307 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 5: come up with. Now, they'll do a control swab too 308 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 5: as well, just to demonstrate, you know, it's a control 309 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 5: that you use in the lab. And then they go 310 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 5: to every region and for some reason, as you pointed out, 311 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 5: come and you're right, you are, they get to that snap. Now, 312 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 5: why would it be that on the smooth maybe metallic 313 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 5: leading edge on the exterior. All other surfaces are clean 314 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 5: or are absent any kind of trace DNA. But yet 315 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 5: they still recover it from there. I think that that 316 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 5: might be shielding. It might be protection. And it doesn't 317 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 5: matter how many times you snap it. If they take 318 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 5: that swab and they run it on the inside of 319 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 5: that lip, they're going to find things. And we even 320 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 5: find this with Layton prints. When people I go through 321 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 5: an exercise. It's a college professor that teaches forensics, and 322 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 5: I tell my students and they always hate me for 323 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 5: this because they think about it for days and days afterwards. 324 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 5: I say, when we're doing latent prints, I say, Okay, 325 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 5: when you leave campus today, leave with this thought in mind. 326 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 5: Think about how you get in and out of your vehicle. 327 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 5: How do you leverage your body in and out of 328 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 5: your vehicle. Most people don't think about that. They don't 329 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 5: think about the fact that they have to use their key. 330 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 5: Perhaps they have an old door lock on it, or 331 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 5: they're going to hit the buzzer. Oh and by the way, 332 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 5: they have to stick their fingers underneath and open the 333 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 5: door handle. You know, actuate the door handle, then grab 334 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 5: the bar, the support bar side next to the window. 335 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 5: Maybe they'll push it up and some people will push 336 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 5: on the interior glass. Then they're going to have to 337 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 5: leverage their self into it to sit down. You're gripping 338 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 5: multiple layers. Most people don't think about that, and that's 339 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 5: that's the nature of us as humans. We go through 340 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 5: these repetitive tasks all the time. We don't think about 341 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 5: where we're coming in contact. That as a forensics person 342 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 5: is where we can find those little land mines that 343 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 5: perpetrators have not thought about. And Connore you thought about one. 344 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 5: So there you go. I've actually referred to the car 345 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 5: as a rolling crime scene. So what may have happened 346 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 5: with that? Did he plan so much that he had 347 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 5: a change of clothes that he changed into before he 348 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 5: mounted back up in that car and then he tossed 349 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 5: the clothing? Remember there was a big stink over I 350 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 5: guess it was the Tuesday after the Wednesday, after the 351 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 5: primary crime scene had been worked, you know, on that Sunday, 352 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 5: you know, that morning morning up, and they were talking 353 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 5: about trash pick up and how they had not checked 354 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 5: all the trash cans and I've often wondered did they 355 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 5: miss something? Did they miss something? And it's mass confusion 356 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 5: around the campus. You got kids, his parents are calling 357 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 5: them saying leave. And I'm sure that not all details 358 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 5: were Did they go through and check every single trash 359 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 5: can in that little community. Did they look for clothes 360 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 5: that had been you know, tossed aside, perhaps in a 361 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 5: bag somewhere, Because if if he is this criminal mastermind, 362 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 5: which you know, the media is trying to portray him, 363 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 5: as you know, because he was working on a PhD 364 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 5: in criminology, which is not forensic science, did he think 365 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 5: enough to show up with a change of clothes, you know? 366 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 5: And I think that that's an interesting question. And the 367 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 5: shoes as well. There were early there was an early 368 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 5: conversation about a pair of vans where there was some 369 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 5: kind of print that was left in the hallway and 370 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 5: it turns out somebody else was in vans in the house. 371 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 5: And they never said what kind of media that the 372 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 5: print was left behind. Was it dirt, was it dust? 373 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 5: Was it blood that left this pattern? But there were 374 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 5: other vans that were left there, and there were all 375 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 5: kinds of photographs floating around for a period of tom 376 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 5: You know, demonstrating different types of vans you know that 377 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 5: are out there that people wear. You know, it's not 378 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 5: just surfer dudes. 379 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 380 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 3: a moment. 381 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 6: One of the things that we talked about in one 382 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 6: of the episodes, there was a mention, and this was 383 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 6: just stuck out. There's a mention that there was no 384 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 6: shower curtain in his apartment, and I think Jeff and 385 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 6: I were talking about speculating that could he have possibly 386 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 6: taken the shower curtain put it in his car seat 387 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 6: so that when he was driving, essentially there was some 388 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 6: type of bubble And maybe that's the reason why there's 389 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 6: no shower curtain in his apartment. Maybe he was just cheap, 390 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 6: poor student. He never bothered, he couldn't care less. But 391 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 6: I mean that's the type of thing you're saying that, 392 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 6: you know, if he's thinking about he's planning this stuff out, 393 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 6: that he could have thought about bringing in a change 394 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 6: of clothes, having multiple pairs of gloves so that you're 395 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 6: tearing off the dirty one, putting in a bag to 396 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 6: dispose of later, but you still have another pair that 397 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 6: is clean, or something like that as well. Right, Like 398 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 6: that's kind of what you were talking about. 399 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, creating that barrier that's going to separate you from 400 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 5: those cloth seats. And I remember seeing I remember looking 401 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 5: not so much at his dad and him when they 402 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 5: had those videos of them being pulled over in Indiana, 403 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 5: looking at the seats, thinking well, is that is that 404 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 5: the kind of surface that I would expect kind of 405 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 5: a supersaturation of blood remnant to be left behind in 406 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 5: if I remember correctly, there's some kind of funky cloth. 407 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 5: You're not talking about a high end vehicle here that's 408 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 5: going to have pleather or certainly not leather, which still 409 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 5: you know that absorbs blood and you can find it. 410 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 5: But just think about cloth, if you've ever had a 411 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 5: cloth seat in a vehicle, and just if you have 412 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 5: a kid and kids spill something in the vehicle, Oh 413 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 5: my lord, I forbid it's chocolate milk. Of course, that's 414 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 5: never happened to me. But you know, when you think 415 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 5: about what, how do you get this out of there? 416 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 5: And it requires a bit of elbow grease, and it 417 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 5: requires a knowledge of you know, what can be applied 418 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 5: to that covering to render it clean and absent that 419 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 5: that car though I think holds many keys and it 420 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 5: was but Steph, you had mentioned the visual capture of 421 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 5: the sing on CCTV, you know, and they did the 422 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 5: infamous ring. That's what they're referring to. It is I 423 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 5: can't remember. It's twenty plus miles I think where they 424 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 5: went around to all the CCTV spots and the car 425 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 5: plays a role into that. We have to think, did 426 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 5: he have any other conveyance, Well, not that we know of, 427 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 5: but we know that he kind of circled about the 428 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 5: University of Idaho because the phone's pinging in those specific locations, 429 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 5: and this is you know, they they're claiming that they 430 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 5: can put him there prior to the deaths, and then 431 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 5: of course we think that there's a return visit maybe 432 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 5: that morning, you know, thinking about well, what's you know, 433 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 5: what's happening, you know, and a lot of us have 434 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 5: talked about this, Why isn't there anything in the news 435 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 5: and we've got you know, that plays into the whole 436 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 5: timeline thing where things not reported until noonish or you know, 437 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 5: just shy of nunish and he's probably wondering at this 438 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 5: point in times they're curious, did he ride back over there? 439 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 5: Would you leave Washington State hop in your white Hyundai 440 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 5: and drive back over there and take a look, just 441 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 5: a peek, just to see what's going on. And how 442 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 5: could you be that foolish? So you begin to think 443 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 5: about this, did he think about this thoroughly? And to 444 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 5: your point, Connor, about creating this barrier in the car? 445 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 5: I think certainly the shower curtain could do that. But 446 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 5: if he's such a mastermind, wouldn't he know that, you know, 447 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 5: the shower curtain, even though it's in a wet environment, 448 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 5: could very well contain some of his DNA because he's 449 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 5: bathing in there, and you're going to use that to 450 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 5: cover a seat. That's a very intimate thing, a shower curtain. 451 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 5: Don't know about you guys, but you know you brush 452 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 5: up against it in all manner of things. You got 453 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 5: hair falling off, you know, all kinds of things that 454 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 5: can be contained on the shower curtain. Just because you 455 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 5: put water to it doesn't mean it's clean. That's an 456 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 5: interesting thought, you know, did he create a barrier for 457 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 5: that car? And then those what the the FBI team 458 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 5: saw him doing up Pocono's with the observations of you know, 459 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 5: this just constant cleaning of the vehicle. You know they've 460 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 5: got this, they're viewing this, and you know they're he's 461 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 5: digging through it, he's hauling off, putting things in zip 462 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 5: lock bags and creating them off. I mean, maybe he's fastidious. 463 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 5: I don't know. Maybe he's substidious about cleaning his car. 464 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 5: Looking at it going through down the road in Indiana 465 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 5: didn't appear to be that he was fastidious. Why would 466 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 5: he did he clean it in Idaho and then clean 467 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 5: it again once he got to mom and Dad's house. 468 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 6: I mean, presumably he would have after the murder, if 469 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 6: he used that vehicle, he would have cleaned it. Then 470 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 6: after the stops in Indiana he got scared and decided 471 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 6: to clean it more. I mean, that's that's the only 472 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 6: way to sort of approach that. But who knows. I mean, 473 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 6: did he clean it NonStop for months? Like you know 474 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 6: that murders happened in the middle of November. He doesn't 475 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 6: get arrested until the end of December. Is you know, 476 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 6: is he cleaning every single day? 477 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 5: Yeah? And he's becoming obsessive about it. You think about that, 478 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 5: and I'm curious from sampling perspective, I have to think 479 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 5: that you know, working in conjunction with Pennsylvania State Police 480 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 5: and the FBI when they got this car. I'm wondering 481 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 5: what type of samplings did they take from within the 482 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 5: vehicle and was there did they do any kind of 483 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 5: chemical testing and get an idea as to what he 484 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 5: may have been cleaning the car with and talk about 485 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 5: tie backs just at a molecular level. Did he have 486 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 5: anything under the sink in Idaho that he had purchased 487 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 5: to use for cleaning that they found remnant of in 488 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 5: the car that may have varied from what he was 489 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 5: using at mom and Daddy's house. You know, are there 490 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 5: multiple agents that are being used? The question is is 491 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 5: when he's doing all of his studies of the tenants 492 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 5: of I don't know, Hans Gross and all these other 493 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 5: people that are criminologists, does he have time to go 494 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 5: through and dig out a forensic text and begin to see, 495 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 5: you know, how to defeat defeat any kind of of 496 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 5: you know, testing that an organization as sophisticated as the 497 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 5: Idaho State Crime Lab or the FBI crime Lab or 498 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 5: Pennsylvania State Crime Lab can he defeat? Is he powerful 499 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 5: enough intellectually to understand that and anticipate it and defeat 500 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 5: anything that they've got going on in the laboratory and 501 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 5: defeat what the crime scene investigators are doing at those scenes. 502 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 5: You know, the things they're going to think about, because 503 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 5: I don't know, there have been people that are saying, 504 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 5: you know, you need to go back to Pennsylvania and 505 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 5: check check for unsolved cases and all these sorts of things. Well, 506 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 5: to the best of my knowledge, at this point time, 507 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 5: he hadn't been charged with anything. This is his first 508 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 5: time at bat. You know, if it is, is he 509 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 5: that much of a wonder kind that he can you know, 510 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 5: he can anticipate everything that he has this big brain. 511 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 5: You're always going to miss something. You know, the snap 512 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 5: might be the thing that would do him in if 513 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 5: that turns out to be accurate. You know, if he's 514 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 5: in possession of that knife, I think from an investor, 515 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 5: this is an investigative part as opposed to a forensic part. 516 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 5: But you know the provenance of that knife and that sheath, 517 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 5: is there some way to tie it back to a 518 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 5: purchasing where they can actually physically put that in his hand, 519 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 5: that he ordered it somewhere, he went into a sporting 520 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 5: good store or ordered it online from some you know, 521 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 5: from Amazon, or whoever, or that he decided to buy it. 522 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 5: I mean immediately when I started hearing about the type 523 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 5: of knife that was being alleged that was being used, 524 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 5: I immediately went on a variety of sites on the internet. 525 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 5: You know, how hard would it be for me to 526 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 5: buy a K bar? I mean, I've seen k bars. 527 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 5: I go to gun stores, I go to hunting stores. 528 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 5: You know, we've got a lot of them where I live, 529 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 5: and I see k bars there. I've seen in my 530 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 5: whole life. My dad's a four Marine and he had 531 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 5: a k bar, And you know, so I'm thinking about 532 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 5: that sort of thing. How would you and why whyn't 533 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 5: you use a k bar? Why there's a lot of 534 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 5: knives out there. You know, they'd thrown around the term 535 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 5: rambo knife, which is not a k bar. That's a 536 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 5: survival knife that has a scruff end on the handle 537 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 5: that contains things like needle and thread and fish hooks 538 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 5: and all that sort of compass and all that sort 539 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 5: of thing. It's not a k bar. Is a classic 540 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 5: combat knife. It's weighted and balanced for that purpose. So 541 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 5: I'm thinking about these things and thinking, why choose a 542 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 5: k bar out of every knife that's out there is 543 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 5: it something he's familiar with that you have a history 544 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 5: of having an interest in the military. Well, as soon 545 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 5: as I thought about that, I start seeing images of 546 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 5: him and I don't know if it was a j 547 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 5: RTC or whatever it was. And there's this picture of 548 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 5: him when he was larger than he is today, and 549 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 5: he's doing push ups and he's wearing a BDU uniform, 550 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 5: and I start thinking, well, he's got some familiarity with 551 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 5: the military. Maybe that entered k bar entered in his lexicon. 552 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 5: Why would it be that you would choose that weapon 553 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 5: to perpetrate such a heinous crime? And he might be 554 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 5: many things, but I can tell you what he's not. 555 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 5: He's not a special opera person. You know, in special 556 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 5: operations people are trained in hand to hand combat, edged combat. 557 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 5: So this is a daunting task. It's one thing to 558 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 5: take a gun out and shoot somebody. You don't need 559 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 5: to be a marksman to do that. You start to 560 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 5: get into a knife play. This is a completely different 561 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 5: realm that you enter into because you have to be 562 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 5: aware that there is a high probability that someone could 563 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 5: take that knife and bury it in your chest. They 564 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 5: could take it away from you and you're running a 565 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 5: real risk. So why this knife, Why the students at 566 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 5: this particular times. It's an interesting question that I think 567 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 5: that the investigators have asked of themselves. 568 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, we have done a lot of research, going back 569 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 4: to Pennsylvania and etc. Trying to find a previous occurrence 570 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 4: that would point to something that maybe was a pregame 571 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 4: to this crime. And frankly, we haven't been able to 572 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 4: identify something super obvious. But you know, something about it 573 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 4: just doesn't track. And why in the hell, if you're 574 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 4: so bright and smart, would you drive your own white 575 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: car to and from the crime scene even the next day. 576 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 4: I mean, you're really we're talking about something that it's unexplainable, 577 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 4: I guess, But yeah, the smartest guy in the room 578 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 4: wouldn't do that. 579 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 6: Serial killers have budgets too. He may not have had 580 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 6: access to another vehicle. I mean, like you go to 581 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 6: war with what the weapons you have, and all he 582 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 6: had was his weight, you know, Hyundai. 583 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 5: Maybe it's some kind of grandiose manifestation that you see 584 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 5: being played out here that I you know that I'm 585 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 5: capable of doing this, you know, and I think about bodybags. 586 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 5: I was amazed, and I'm just you know, kind of 587 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 5: mentioning this on the side, but covered the case a 588 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 5: few weeks back involving Sam Little, and many people are 589 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 5: familiar with Sam Little. He it turns out he's he's 590 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: arguably one of the most prolific serial killers to exist 591 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 5: in US history. And they finally got one of the 592 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 5: bodies identified from the mid seventies that he actually killed. 593 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 5: He killed the young woman and making Georgia and Sam 594 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 5: Little lived to kill. He would take jobs just so 595 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 5: that he could be near victims, and he traveled everywhere, 596 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 5: and he he didn't have a dime to his name, 597 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 5: but he figured out of way to you know, lure 598 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 5: women in their own environments, generally prostitutes, all of them 599 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 5: just about prostitutes, and choke them out and leave very 600 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 5: little evidence behind over the course of time. So is 601 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 5: this are we looking actually at a serial perpetrator? Here? 602 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 5: Are we looking at a mass murderer? You know, anything 603 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 5: three or more is essentially a mass killing. So you 604 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 5: if it is who they alleged that it is, is 605 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 5: there so much anger that's pent up? Is there so 606 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 5: much hatred and venom that he wants to take out 607 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 5: on you know this these poor college students. Did it 608 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 5: just all come to a head at this particular time, 609 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 5: you know? And this goes to motive, and of course 610 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 5: state doesn't have to prove motive, but circumstantially you begin 611 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 5: to think about what are the motivations for someone first off, 612 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 5: to leave Pennsylvania and come to Washington of all places 613 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 5: to work on a PhD. And I've said again was 614 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 5: it was a fine school. But you know, you're you're 615 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 5: talking about going to a very high end Catholic institution 616 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 5: in Pennsylvania. The sales to get your undergraduate and your masters. 617 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 5: You're in the heart. You're in the heart of doctoral 618 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 5: studies in criminology in that Northeastern corridor. The state of 619 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 5: Pennsylvania alone has four PhD programs in criminology. You go 620 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 5: up the Eastern Seaboard, you start hitting places like you know, 621 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 5: d C. You hit New York obviously John Jay School 622 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 5: of Criminal Justice. You go to Boston and North Northeast 623 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 5: Northeastern that's there is considered to be their holy shrine. 624 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 5: Why are you going to pack up and head to 625 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 5: Washington State? And then you screw around while you're there 626 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 5: because I got to tell you, people that aren't familiar 627 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 5: with what it's like being a PhD student. It's in 628 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 5: dentured servitude, particularly those first few semesters you're there. And 629 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 5: the fact that he had enough time to go and 630 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 5: do this while he is a TA teaching assistant, which 631 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,239 Speaker 5: he was doing miserably at From what we're understanding, that 632 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 5: you have and I know it's really close, but you 633 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 5: have enough Tom to get in your car and drive 634 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 5: literally across state lines and cruise another campus. You have 635 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 5: enough Tom to do this. And I'm perplexed by that. 636 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 6: Can I impack that for a second, because you just 637 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 6: made a point that I have not heard anyone make, 638 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 6: which is that he potentially chose where to go to school, 639 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 6: maybe with the idea that somewhere like Idaho would be 640 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 6: the easiest place to get away with him murder. 641 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 5: Or something even more ominous. 642 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 6: Because a small town. They don't. Idaho is not a 643 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 6: rich state. They don't. They just don't have murder, so 644 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 6: there's not as much forensic opportunity for their investigators. And 645 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 6: would staying in the Northeast or staying in Pennsylvania maybe 646 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 6: if he had this fantasy and he wanted to carry 647 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 6: it out, would be more problematic, more difficult, So you 648 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 6: go away for your PhD to be in a place 649 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 6: closer to a place like Idaho, which would have limited 650 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 6: resources to solve a murder. 651 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 4: Or if he had some sort of pre existing social 652 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 4: relationship on social media or some interaction with one of 653 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 4: the victims, we would only be speculating to say, who 654 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 4: if there was some sort of dynamic happening that he 655 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 4: perceived as a relationship prior to moving, and that's why 656 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 4: he actually moved, because he had targeted one of the 657 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 4: victims in his mind already. I'm not making the suggestion 658 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 4: that he was friends or that there was any sort of, 659 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 4: you know, obvious connection. But a person's screwy brain can 660 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 4: really make screwy fantasies happen. And this is not an 661 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 4: original thought. Somebody has said this to me, that it's 662 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 4: possible that that was one of the reasons for the move. 663 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree completely, and I think that it's something. 664 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 5: I'm almost positive that they investigative collective, I'll put it 665 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 5: to that way or exploring because being an academic and 666 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 5: being you know, in academic for twenty years, this is 667 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 5: what I do know is that when you go up 668 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 5: for a PhD program, something. When you get to that 669 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 5: level and you're stud something as specific as criminal behavior, 670 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 5: which criminology is, you look for people to It's the 671 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 5: ultimate and the socratic method. You're looking for people, they say, 672 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 5: to study under or to sit at their feet some 673 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 5: great scholar in criminology. So what is it that Wazoo 674 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 5: has to offer that no other institution in the United 675 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 5: States or Europe has to offer, or Canada has to 676 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 5: offer their fine schools in Canada that have criminology programs. 677 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 5: What is it about that location? Who on that staff 678 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 5: did he identify when he was at the Sales completing 679 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 5: his master's degree. Who was it that he identified at 680 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 5: Washington State says, that's the person I want to study under. 681 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 5: That's the person that I want to set my track 682 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 5: on life with because I'm going to go into academic 683 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 5: because I got to tell you, you're not going to 684 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 5: do much with a PhD other than to teach. You can 685 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 5: consult eventually if you get enough years, you know, under 686 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 5: your belt. So with that said, once you've identified and 687 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 5: targeted an individual that you want to sit at their feet, 688 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 5: if you will, now you have to apply. Well, the 689 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 5: application is a bit arduous as you can imagine. First off, 690 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 5: you have to submit writing samples. You have to give 691 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 5: them a philosophy letter about what your thoughts are, areas 692 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 5: that you want to do research in. You have to 693 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 5: name many times some of their staff members that are 694 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 5: currently doing because you know, when I mentioned in dner Servitude, 695 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 5: it's not just about you going to get a PhD, 696 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 5: it's about them looking for workers. So if you've got 697 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 5: Professor A that is studying a particular area, is this 698 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 5: the person that Professor A wants to bring in that 699 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 5: will literally become an employee, a full time employee of 700 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 5: the university while working on their PhD. They're going to 701 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 5: have their tuition paid for, you know, maybe a dorm food, 702 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 5: they'll get a stipend, and you're going to be at 703 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 5: that person's bidding day in and day out. And oh, 704 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 5: by the way, you're going to do research while you're 705 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 5: teaching my classes. So after you make it through that, 706 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 5: you have to have recommendation letters. Who wrote recommendation letters 707 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 5: for him? Who was it that sat down and thought 708 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 5: that Brian Coberger would be a great candidate for Wazoo 709 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 5: And was Wazoo the only place he chose? That's another 710 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 5: sticking point because I got to tell you, as an investigator, 711 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 5: if you're I don't know, maybe his GR scores, which 712 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 5: is kind of like the SAT, maybe his GR scores 713 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 5: are just off the scale. He could choose anywhere he 714 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 5: wanted to go, and he's solely focused on Washington State 715 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 5: and he's done research at a master's degree level. That's 716 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 5: going to fold back into that who is it that 717 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 5: he's going to study under? Who is it at the 718 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 5: sales or whoever that wrote him these letters of recommendation. 719 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 5: And that's why this peeling of the onion to get 720 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 5: inside of his head and trying to understand what he's 721 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 5: doing is very important, I think. And to this point, 722 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 5: I know that they have certain privacy issues at work, 723 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 5: but I have to think that the authorities have begun 724 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 5: to look into this. I hope they have. As a 725 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 5: matter of fact, I hope that once they had identified 726 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 5: who he was, this is the first thing that they 727 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 5: did know. Because the world's a crazy place. Next thing, 728 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 5: you know, files are leaded and all these sorts of things, 729 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 5: and it's gone. You want to be able to catch 730 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 5: that data as quickly as you can to try to 731 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 5: understand what he's doing. Because if that is a purpose, 732 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 5: then you begin to develop a timeline, and timeline is 733 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 5: what we work on in investigations and forensics. You arrive 734 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 5: in June or May, you know, after you've been accepted. 735 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 5: You get there, you find an apartment, You've drug your 736 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 5: ass all the way across the country, you set up 737 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 5: an apartment. You got a job, you're supposed to be 738 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 5: going to class, you're supposed to be doing research, and 739 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 5: you have to account for every second that you're in 740 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 5: a PhD program, every second they demand it. They want 741 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 5: you to be well. The next thing, I know, he's 742 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 5: being disciplined. I'm hearing things about him being disciplined, that 743 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 5: he doesn't get along well with students, he's arrogant, you know, 744 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,439 Speaker 5: all these sorts of things that kind of come out 745 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 5: about him. Doesn't get along with colleagues. You know who 746 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 5: does that when they first show up at the door. 747 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 5: It's one thing if you've been working someplace for two 748 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 5: or three years, it turns out your jerk. First day there, 749 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 5: you show up, you're a jerk. You know long is 750 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 5: it's going to last? And plus these people are going 751 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 5: to give you grades. So are you are you really 752 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 5: bought into the process of getting a PhD. I think 753 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 5: it's a legitimate question. And so why why that location? 754 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 5: Why the University of Idaho? Why those poor souls, those 755 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 5: four kids that are literally in the conclusion of their 756 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 5: undergraduate career. Their lives are wrecked, their families, lives are wrecked, 757 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 5: they're dead. What set them apart? Why why that location? 758 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 5: That brings us back to the place being a party house. 759 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 5: And we hear that anybody in the world could have 760 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 5: walked into that house. And look, most people that are 761 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 5: out there that have been undergraduates in some place. You're 762 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 5: familiar with the house where everybody would go and congregate 763 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 5: and hang out, even if you were sitting on front 764 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 5: porch drinking a beer. Oh yeah, they they're tapped a keg. 765 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 5: We're going to go here. It's cool, man, It's about 766 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 5: being in college or hanging out. This is that kind 767 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,479 Speaker 5: of place. The sliders are open. Remember, nothing happens up here. 768 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 5: You certainly don't have quadruple homicides. Everybody would trust. Everybody 769 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 5: come and goes you please. That one view from outside 770 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 5: that I think the Son or the Daily Mail had 771 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 5: published that shot of the table. You can see it's 772 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 5: a classic shot now and you've got solo cups sitting 773 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 5: on the tail. You got all kinds of crap that 774 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 5: are in there. I'm not judging them, the college students, 775 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 5: anybody could have come and gone. So is it possible 776 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 5: that a person that wanted to end the life of somebody? 777 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 5: And this goes to going back to Piketon. You know, 778 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 5: what do we know about the Wagoners and the Rodents, Well, 779 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 5: they have familial ties. They go to one another's homes, 780 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 5: They've crossed the thresholds of one another's houses. Now this perpetrator, 781 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 5: this alleged perpetrator, Ryan Coberger, the accused, certainly wasn't family. 782 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 5: But you can set yourself in a kind of a 783 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 5: quasi familial relationship. We remember, we're talking about making a home. 784 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 5: You know, when party night is generally on, generally at 785 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 5: college town's party nights or Thursday nights, people are checking 786 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 5: out the next day. Maybe Thursday night they throw a kicker. 787 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 5: Every single Thursday night. People would filter over from the 788 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 5: Greek village that's literally right down the road. Who's going 789 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 5: to know who this guy is? He comes walking in, 790 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 5: he's in this environment, he sees it and one of 791 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,479 Speaker 5: the most chilling things that came up from me. It's 792 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 5: terrifying to me, particularly as a father. Is that damn 793 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 5: TikTok video that those kids put up where you can 794 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 5: see just in that quick flash, you can see that 795 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 5: great room, great room, family room, kitchen, slash, open concept, 796 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 5: whatever you want to call it. We've got a great 797 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 5: open floor plan, yeah you do. And in it broadcast 798 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 5: for the whole world to see, is an interior upward 799 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 5: staircase and an interior downward staircase. And I see the sliders. 800 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,479 Speaker 5: I know where they're at, and I know who's in there. 801 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 5: So if I were inclined to perpetrate something like this, 802 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 5: I've got a snapshot. Now I might not have the 803 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 5: entire truth, but I'm kind of oriented. And if you're 804 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 5: an obsessed person, just imagine watching that on a loop. 805 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 5: You got nothing but time. You're not going to not 806 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 5: doing your job. You're sitting there doing nothing but watching. 807 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 5: And if you're already tracking somebody on social media, Wow, 808 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 5: what a big old slice of cake for you. Huh? 809 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 5: You get everything, you get everything you're able to see 810 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 5: into that world. What are my points of ingress and 811 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 5: egress with us sliders? And I know behind those sliders 812 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 5: because I've ridden around that property so much. There's a 813 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 5: place I can part my car up there. Oh there's 814 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 5: a hedgerow. Let's go up there at night. Let's go see. 815 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 5: I'll wear black shirt, black pants, maybe a black jacket. 816 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 5: Side of hose can be cold. Let me just pull 817 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 5: over here and see if I can get into these 818 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 5: bushes and sit here and watch see what happens. Maybe 819 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 5: I'll bring my binoculars with me and at a distance. 820 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 5: You know when the lights go on, when lights go off, 821 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 5: you know when people are going up through the bedrooms, 822 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 5: when they're shutting it down for the night. You can 823 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 5: time it. You can look at it. Okay, Well, if 824 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 5: she shuts it down at this time of night, are 825 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 5: their food orders coming in? We've got door dash? Do 826 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 5: they use door dash? Is that a way I could 827 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 5: get in? Is there anybody else that's pulling up leaving? 828 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 5: Is there a regular that shows up? Is there some 829 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 5: member of the football team that shows up that I 830 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 5: need to think about? Mike could beat my ass. You know, 831 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 5: do they have boyfriends that are football players or whatever else? 832 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 5: You have a good old boy showing up in camouflage. 833 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 5: It's been deer hunting all day and he's got a 834 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 5: gun a knife, and I'm not gonna have a chance 835 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 5: against him. So you sit out there and you watch 836 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 5: it and you observe it. And there's that classic shot. 837 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 5: And I love that they put this out there because 838 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 5: we've got those. There's that shot of the investigators. Actually 839 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 5: you can see them. Somebody in the media captured them 840 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 5: doing this. They were going to the hedgerow and they 841 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 5: were squatted and they're looking back toward the house. See, 842 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 5: the cops are thinking about this, they're thinking about points 843 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 5: of observation all the way around. And when the time 844 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 5: is right, when you've worked yourself into a frenzy, you 845 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 5: drive up there in your car. You park it so 846 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 5: nobody else sees you. Remember, we're getting ready for Thanksgiving holiday. 847 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 5: Everybody's guards down right now. It's not like you're in 848 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 5: the October and you're right in the middle of party season. 849 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 5: You're sitting there and you're watching and you're waiting. You've 850 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 5: got gloves on, maybe you don't. Maybe you've got certain 851 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 5: types of boots on. Maybe you got shoe covers. You 852 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 5: can go buy shoe covers. I was just in a 853 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 5: hardware store the other day. You can buy coveralls that 854 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 5: cover your entire body. Zip them up, just like we 855 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 5: use that on crime scenes so you don't get pain 856 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 5: on your clothes. You got gloves, anybody can get gloves. 857 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 5: And you got your kbar. Where you're gonna put the sheath, Well, 858 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 5: maybe you're carrying it single handed because you've got something 859 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 5: on that's covering your person underneath. You're not gonna hook 860 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 5: it to your belt. It's got a belt loop. So 861 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 5: you're walking in with singing in your hand. You know 862 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 5: the slider is open. You're gonna quietly open the slider, 863 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 5: and you know where the staircase is. Remember you've either 864 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 5: been there for a party or you saw the TikTok video. 865 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 5: You make a hard right when you walk in. You 866 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 5: walk up that staircase and they're low and behold, there 867 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 5: are two girls in that bed and they are shocked 868 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 5: and terrified, and you go to work. So the perpetrator, 869 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 5: whoever it is, this is fishing a barrel for somebody 870 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 5: that has a for the sort of thing that wants 871 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 5: to perpetrate this sort of thing. Because it's not like 872 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 5: you went in in a blaze of glory and people 873 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 5: can hear you shouting and screaming and all that sort 874 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 5: of thing that's going on. This was done stealthily, and 875 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 5: that's something that Piketon has in common with Idaho. There's 876 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 5: stealth involved. You wait till the right moment, You wait 877 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 5: till you know that everybody is out for the evening. 878 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 5: You know that you can defeat the CCTV. You can 879 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 5: take the mechanism that records everything. You know where the 880 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 5: dogs are, you're friendly with the dogs. Maybe bring snacks 881 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 5: for the dogs. You know that you're going to have 882 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 5: to have firearms. Well, these are college kids in Idaho. 883 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 5: Maybe not firearms. Maybe a knife is all I need. Yeah, 884 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 5: that's up close and personal too. I can live out 885 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 5: this fantasy there. The motivations behind these two things are 886 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 5: probably completely different, but there's anger involved in both of them. 887 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 5: You know, you've got these elements of overkill in both 888 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 5: of them. But it requires stealth and it requires some 889 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 5: level of precision. I think probably more precision in piked 890 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 5: In because you've got four separate scenes that are spread 891 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 5: out over this godly space. When I rode rode through 892 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 5: that area taping, I was amazed at first off the 893 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 5: isolation of it, and secondly, how you know the three 894 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 5: houses are kind of close together on Union Hill, but 895 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 5: you've got that the fourth one that's often the distance 896 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 5: and buddy, is it isolated. You've got pipe sunshine in 897 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 5: out there, and it requires stealth, that requires precision. You 898 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 5: know you're going to do this under the cover of darkness, 899 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 5: so you've got to make sure that you're there before 900 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,720 Speaker 5: the cock crows, that you can clear out before anybody 901 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 5: else sees you. You have to be able to dispose 902 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 5: of these things that you have purchased or identified as 903 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 5: something that you want to use. So there is similarity 904 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 5: in both of these cases. I think that piked in 905 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,839 Speaker 5: for me is more planning. It took place when it 906 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,760 Speaker 5: came to this, we know, and plus you've got multiple 907 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 5: brains working here to plan. You know this. This infamy, 908 00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,839 Speaker 5: if you will, right now would appear that they've identified 909 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 5: only one person that's thinking about Idaho. But planning nonetheless 910 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 5: went into this. This is not something that was just 911 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 5: simply decided on a whim. You showed up prepared. You 912 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 5: certainly showed up with a knife at some time. 913 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. 914 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 4: There was a filing yesterday from Brian's defense attorney suggesting 915 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 4: that they are in fact going to potentially have an 916 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 4: alibi for him, and that is something that might be 917 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,319 Speaker 4: potentially brought up in court. Connor would say that there's 918 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,880 Speaker 4: not much to be said there and it's just a formality, 919 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 4: which is probably accurate as always. Can you tell us 920 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 4: just a little bit about your first reaction to this 921 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 4: crime prior to their being an arrest and why you 922 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,800 Speaker 4: specifically were so drawn to this case. 923 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, remember the exact moment why I was, and this 924 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 5: is why. When I was a young man and I 925 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,239 Speaker 5: was working still for the Corner in New Orleans, there 926 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 5: was a case that took place in Gainesville, Florida, just 927 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 5: off campus from the University of Florida, and it was 928 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 5: not just a case, it was multiple cases, and it 929 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,840 Speaker 5: involved sharp forces injuries, and it was a gainsul ripper. 930 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,399 Speaker 5: And I thought back to that time as a young 931 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 5: investigator because the person that they identified in that particular 932 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 5: case that was eventually arrested and charged and convicted, they 933 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 5: were looking at that person for homicides that we had 934 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 5: in my jurisdiction, and he had connection to Louisiana. And 935 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,239 Speaker 5: then of course there's always the specter Bundy, you know, 936 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,319 Speaker 5: with the Cayo House, and so those two things kind 937 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 5: of married up. You had. First off, the common denominator 938 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 5: was university, and who would go into a university and 939 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 5: do this sort of thing? And the Gainsul Ripper had 940 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 5: male victims. But again, say what you will? You know 941 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,959 Speaker 5: you don't have these things, particularly back then, that would 942 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,279 Speaker 5: happen in Gamesville, Florida. It didn't have it happen in 943 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 5: Tallahassee like with the Kyo House. And I was taken 944 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 5: back for that moment, you know, when I heard about 945 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,240 Speaker 5: these cases, I thought about what went through my mind. 946 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,919 Speaker 5: Cases that I was working in New Orleans at the time, 947 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 5: because we had a series of serial killings that were 948 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 5: going on, and you know, we were all I was 949 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 5: on a task force as a matter of fact, and 950 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 5: I was thinking, is this guy associated with anything that 951 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 5: had happened here? You know, because it's on the ITM corridor. 952 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,880 Speaker 5: And then my professor brain kicked in and I began. 953 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 5: First off, I began thinking as a professor, my kids 954 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 5: that I was teaching that I had it'll it'll be 955 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,280 Speaker 5: a year a year ago in just about six weeks 956 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,839 Speaker 5: when fall semester began, and I began to know, these 957 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 5: kids that come into my class and here you roll 958 00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 5: into Thanksgiving and you think about them. They're sick of 959 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 5: you and you're sick of them, but they're still my kids. 960 00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,720 Speaker 5: And then I thought as a father because my child 961 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 5: sophomore in college last year. He's a junior this year, 962 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 5: and I had a daughter that went to my university. 963 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 5: And immediately, you know, all of that kind of spun 964 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 5: up inside of me. And that's why, Yeah, I was 965 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:14,960 Speaker 5: in the middle. You know, back then, I was just 966 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 5: coming off of covering Gabby Patito and all the storm 967 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 5: that that had kicked up. I was roaded, weary, you 968 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 5: know by that time, and I was suddenly in a 969 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 5: real twisted way and reinvigorated when it came to this 970 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,919 Speaker 5: case because I knew that I could in some way 971 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 5: identify with the environment in which this took place, because 972 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 5: I was so familiar with it both as a death 973 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,800 Speaker 5: investigator forensic scientist, but also as a professor and a father. 974 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 5: So it hit, it ticked a lot of boxes with me. 975 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,720 Speaker 5: And plus it's rural. I knew immediately because I've actually 976 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,760 Speaker 5: got a colleague that's we shared office space together. Actually 977 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 5: he's down the hall from me. And he's from Idaho 978 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,719 Speaker 5: and he had attended the University of Idaho. And I 979 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 5: thought about, you know, my friend, and immediately I went 980 00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 5: and talked to him, you know, give me the lay 981 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 5: of the land, you know, tell me what's going on 982 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 5: with this case, and not the case, but tell me 983 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 5: about the place, you know. And suddenly I saw it, 984 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 5: started seeing parallels between Moscow and Jacksonville, where I live, Jacksonville, Alabama, 985 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,400 Speaker 5: you know, where our university is. Campuses are roughly the 986 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,480 Speaker 5: same size. We're both rural, though they are more isolated 987 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,560 Speaker 5: than we are. We're only ninety miles from Atlanta, but 988 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,160 Speaker 5: still we're a rural place. And I thought about the 989 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 5: kids that we have. We've got brilliant people on our campus, 990 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 5: but you know, we're we don't have people that have 991 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,800 Speaker 5: matriculated from going to Harvard and all those sorts of places. 992 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 5: They're common every day salt of the our people that 993 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 5: you know that come from families that are probably in 994 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,720 Speaker 5: pretty close proximity. You got generations that would attended this school, 995 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,880 Speaker 5: just like my school. And so it just really grabbed 996 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,120 Speaker 5: me by my throat. You know, when this happened, I 997 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 5: couldn't believe that it was happening, that it had happened, 998 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 5: and to this degree when the information began to come out, thinking, 999 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 5: oh my lord, this is this is horrible, absolutely horrible. 1000 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,280 Speaker 5: Who And then on top of it, you know, because 1001 00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 5: the first thing I think is angry boyfriend. That's what 1002 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 5: I'm thinking. I'm thinking, angry boyfriend. We're gonna find out 1003 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,920 Speaker 5: in the next twenty four hours this is some kid 1004 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 5: that got in a twist because he got rejected or 1005 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 5: whatever it was. And then nothing, it was cricket. And 1006 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,360 Speaker 5: suddenly I'm thinking, oh my lord, Okay, I have to 1007 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 5: go to my map. What major interstates run through this location. 1008 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,200 Speaker 5: There's some place that some animal could have jumped off 1009 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 5: of the road and just decided to target these kids randomly. 1010 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 5: And I'm thinking, you don't wind up in this town 1011 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 5: by accident. You have to be purpose to be going there. 1012 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,560 Speaker 5: It's not a suitcase college either. It's not a place 1013 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 5: where kid's gonna pack up Friday morning. You know, you've 1014 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 5: got to unless you're going across the state line to Washington. 1015 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 5: You know, in Pullman. Maybe it's not an easy trek 1016 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 5: even to get to Boise. I mean, it's a poke 1017 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,439 Speaker 5: where you go so a lot of these kids stay there, 1018 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 5: you know, they stay there, but they were going home 1019 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,279 Speaker 5: for Thanksgiving. They'd make that big drive or go to 1020 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,480 Speaker 5: the local airport and try to get on a plane 1021 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 5: and go home for at least a bit. These people 1022 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 5: really invested in this location, so in turn, it left 1023 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 5: me being very very invested in this investigation as it's 1024 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:02,960 Speaker 5: kind of played out. 1025 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:04,359 Speaker 3: Connor, how about you. 1026 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,000 Speaker 6: My initial reaction, I was sort of just amazed at 1027 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,880 Speaker 6: for people being stabbed in a college town. The news 1028 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,440 Speaker 6: is full of shootings. I've covered a bunch of shootings. 1029 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,320 Speaker 6: I get alerts all the time for people shot in 1030 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 6: a shopping mall, people shot at a picnic, people shot 1031 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 6: at a house party, people shot everywhere. You know, to 1032 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:31,040 Speaker 6: get an alert for stabbings college kids, it stuck out 1033 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 6: and it blew my mind because it's so out of 1034 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 6: the normal of what American society is. And I mean, 1035 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,000 Speaker 6: let's be basical, like gun violence in our country is 1036 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 6: really normal. Stabbings just aren't. And if you hear of 1037 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 6: a stabbing, it's usually you know, to people who are 1038 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,360 Speaker 6: in a relationship where a fight's gone wrong. And so 1039 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 6: to hear four people in a college house, I mean 1040 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,560 Speaker 6: that just sort of it blew my mind. And it's 1041 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,719 Speaker 6: just so out of the normal view and conversation of 1042 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,360 Speaker 6: violent in this country that I just wasn't expecting it. 1043 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 6: It became really clear, I think, really early on, that 1044 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,359 Speaker 6: there was something more to this story. I didn't have 1045 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,919 Speaker 6: the idea that this was a lover's quarrel gone wrong, 1046 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:15,880 Speaker 6: because how do you explain the other people? And so 1047 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,640 Speaker 6: I was definitely interested from the very beginning because it 1048 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 6: just it didn't seem to line up with what we 1049 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,360 Speaker 6: sort of knew. But there was something more to this 1050 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,319 Speaker 6: story that was clear very early on. 1051 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 4: And Joseph, we had just come off the heels at 1052 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 4: that time of George Wagner's trial and his recent guilty verdict, 1053 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 4: and we're frankly just wiped out from the sadness that 1054 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 4: surrounded that case, right, and we were so happy for 1055 00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 4: the Rodent family to have finally felt some justice. And 1056 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 4: then the news gets you, and sure enough you see 1057 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:52,360 Speaker 4: those beautiful faces and lost souls and families crying and 1058 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,320 Speaker 4: a town grieving. I feel like we all kind of 1059 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:56,919 Speaker 4: knew quickly that we had to jump in. 1060 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd certainly agree with that stuff. It's you know, 1061 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,320 Speaker 5: for anybody that's ever spent time in a college town 1062 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,840 Speaker 5: and you know, you have kind of this collegiate family 1063 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 5: that you're part of, and even if it's not. You know, 1064 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,440 Speaker 5: that's a bit arrogant on my part to say that, 1065 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,839 Speaker 5: because you're talking about all the other people that are 1066 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,799 Speaker 5: part of that university that may have never matriculated from there. 1067 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,759 Speaker 5: But they're the people that serve dinners. There are the 1068 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,880 Speaker 5: people that pull beers. They're the people that you know, 1069 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 5: fix these kids cars when mom and dad are not around. 1070 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,440 Speaker 5: Just let that sink in for a second. You know 1071 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,920 Speaker 5: that whole community is trusted with these kids. You know, 1072 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,319 Speaker 5: when you send your kid to a place like this, 1073 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,040 Speaker 5: there's a whole support system that goes into it. And 1074 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 5: one little interesting aside from what my understanding is is 1075 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,120 Speaker 5: that it's so interwoven into the culture there. You can 1076 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,759 Speaker 5: have certain colleges where they exist in a town, but 1077 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,120 Speaker 5: they're not part of a town. I've worked at places 1078 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 5: like that where the college is just kind of isolated, 1079 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,560 Speaker 5: they don't really interact with locals. That's not the way. 1080 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,239 Speaker 5: As a matter of fact, the local police department in 1081 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 5: this town actually police the campus, and that's that's kind 1082 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:02,800 Speaker 5: of odd, you know when you think about it, Because 1083 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,760 Speaker 5: most universities, particularly state universities, will have their own police force. 1084 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 5: So the police officers that are working to bet on 1085 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 5: main Street, that are going to the domestic calls and 1086 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,239 Speaker 5: all that stuff, they handle frat parties too, they'd be 1087 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 5: familiar with these kids. These kids' faces will come and 1088 00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 5: go over the years and probably develop relationships with them. 1089 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 5: I'm sure that probably some of the kids decided to 1090 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,799 Speaker 5: stay after they graduated. I think about that were part 1091 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,799 Speaker 5: of the community. They wound up going to a place 1092 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,799 Speaker 5: of college, and they never left, you know, they just 1093 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,680 Speaker 5: they wind up being part and parcel of that environment. 1094 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 5: And so when I can only imagine that when this happened, 1095 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 5: many moms and dads in that town and that region there, 1096 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 5: you know, suddenly had that parental you know, that ominous 1097 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,240 Speaker 5: parental feeling that comes over you when something horrible happens. 1098 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 4: Well both of you, your compassion and care and how 1099 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,520 Speaker 4: you've both treated this case that obviously remains ongoing and 1100 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:59,239 Speaker 4: will continue with it. It's frankly been unparalleled. Joseph, we 1101 00:56:59,280 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 4: love you to piece it. 1102 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,799 Speaker 5: Hey love you guys too. It's great to be with 1103 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,840 Speaker 5: you all. Hanging out, thank. 1104 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,719 Speaker 4: You, back at You. 1105 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 3: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 1106 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:19,160 Speaker 3: us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masacer 1107 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,840 Speaker 3: is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Sheene, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, 1108 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:29,440 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 1109 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,480 Speaker 3: by Jeff Toi. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacre 1110 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 3: is a production of iHeart Radio and KAT Studios. For 1111 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 3: more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1112 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.