WEBVTT - Chris Kilham - "The Medicine Hunter" - on Kava 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:45.400 any type of drugs. Hello Psychoactive listeners. So today we're 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.040 gonna have a real adventurer as a guest. His name 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.720 is Chris killing and Chris kill Um has been studying 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.880 plant medicines for fifty years or more. He's written over 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.120 a dozen books. Um, he's trying of all the world 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.160 and uh, you know, the very first guest on on Psychoactive, 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.880 Andy Wile, says this about him. He says, Chris kill 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.720 him is a trustworthy guide on the medicine trail, full 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:15.720 of enthusiasm, wonder and respect for the wisdom of traditional cultures. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.280 I respect his mission to make these plants and their 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:22.399 uses better known in our culture. So in looking over 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.119 the books that Chris has written, I mean the one 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:27.319 that struck me was when he wrote actually quite a 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.280 while ago in late nineties on cava. Cava the plant 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:35.080 medicine that is growing commonly in the South Pacific, and 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.640 I've been wanting to do an episode about cava and 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.959 so for a deep dive on cava and how it 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.000 relates to other plant medicines, I asked Chris tell them 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:49.600 to focus on that. So Chris, welcome so much to Psychoactive. Well, thanks, Ethan, 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.920 It's a great pleasure to be on with you. I've 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.960 been looking forward to this since you first suggested it, 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.160 and I'm glad we're finally making this happen. Yeah, I 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.280 mean I've seen that, you know, you did this can 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.440 Cava going to you know, one of the South Pacific islands. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.480 Is it Vonatua? Is that how you pronounce it? Vona 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.480 Watu is the name of the country, and it's a 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.200 group of about a hundred islands stretching north to south 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.799 in the middle of the Pacific. So if you went 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.600 to Australia and then you flew by jets a three 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.639 hours east into the middle of the ocean, you dropped 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.520 down on Vana Wattu. But yeah, it's in the middle 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.720 of the South Pacific, and Vana Wattu is where kava 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:36.519 first originated. It's spread from as far east as Tahiti 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.880 in the Society Islands, to all the way west to 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.079 um you know, Melanesia and people of a more kind 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:49.320 of Asian Pacific descent. But kava really is the big 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:54.480 psychoactive agent among all of the Pacific islands. So that 0:02:54.520 --> 0:03:00.720 counts with Fiji and Samoa, maybe Hawaii, what else, Yeah, Tonga, 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:06.200 the Marquesses, New Caledonia, you know, sure, all of them. Um. 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:11.480 Cava has played an extremely important role in culture, and uh, 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:16.280 certainly nowhere more so than Vona Wattu. So when I 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:20.480 first decided to take a very deep dive into cava, 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:25.640 which I already knew about in nine, I went to 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:31.440 Vona Watu and through a series of strange encounters, was 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.040 told to go to a very very very far out 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.560 outer island and look for a guy with tattooed legs. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:46.240 And that led to a long friendship and ridiculously amazing adventures, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:51.760 and together with other people, we started the international cova trade. 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:56.720 We we actually did that, and uh we were wonderfully 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.800 successfully in our efforts to popularize cova for a time, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:07.240 and that stimulated um enterprise all over the Pacific Islands. 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.400 And I got to spend a lot of time in 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.760 Vonawatu and continue to this day. I was there in 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:19.720 two thousand nineteen, just a week before all travel stopped 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.200 due to COVID. So's it's an activity and a connection 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.360 that I keep up very closely. Well, so let's just 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.640 get down a basic first. I mean, the first question 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.560 we have to ask, since I imagine a good part 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:32.479 of our audience well not to the answer is what 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.599 the hell is cava? Well, cava is a bush ethan 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:41.320 and um. It is in the pepper family. Uh, it's 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.840 a piper species, and it's the root and the lateral 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.840 roots that come off of this large sort of football 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.679 shaped rootstock that are are taken out of the ground 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:58.520 and pounded, cleaned and pounded and made into a very 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:03.000 very strong drink that you drink out of coconut shells. 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.880 You drink it fresh, it's not fermented, it's not alcoholic, 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.440 and if cabba is properly made, you get a relaxing 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.960 feeling in seconds. I don't mean minutes, I mean seconds 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.520 as it's going down your throat, you feel this wave 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:23.839 of relaxation. And so cava it goes way way back 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:28.479 into antiquity with these different Pacific island communities and they 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:35.160 all have traditions around cava. And in Vanuatu, where I 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.720 have spent, you know, the majority of my time, though 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.520 I've done a lot of work in Hawaii. Um, you know, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.880 we drink cava in the evening. It's pretty funny actually, 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.400 because you'll be out, you know, maybe somebody's working on 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:51.080 their taro patch or whatever, and somebody will say, hey, 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.840 what time is it, and somebody else says, it's cava time, 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.280 and they just stop in mid machette swing and they 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.800 just walk back to the village. And that starts the 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:06.360 reparation of cava, which is very physically demanding and labor intensive. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.760 And this is an agent of kinship and community. It 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.600 brings people together and you sit and talk about your 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.360 day and you know, hang out for a while and 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.080 after drinking a few coconut shells of cava, you go 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.080 off and have dinner. But um, it said, don't miss 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.920 there's never there's never a day that passes where there's 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.760 no cava it's central to kinship and community in the Islands. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.960 Now meanwhile, of course cava has become a not super popular, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.800 but it's spreading in popularity in the U S. In Europe. 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:39.520 I was just looking up. There must be a couple 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.680 hundred cava bars around the country. So it's getting around 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:48.640 and why are people using it? Well, it imparts a 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:54.600 very specific feeling of relaxation and tranquility, and very quickly, 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.320 I mean very quickly, just as you know, one good 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:04.000 solid hit from a great joint of amazing ganja will 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:09.920 get you high momentarily. Um, drinking well made cava, you 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.360 will feel it almost instantaneously, and people like the sense 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:20.520 of tranquility that it promotes. Um, you don't lose neuromuscular coordination, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.680 you don't become drunk the way you would on alcohol, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.040 you don't lose your sensibilities. If you can remember your 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.760 friends phone numbers when you haven't drunk cava you can 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.520 remember and when you have. And um, it's really something 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.040 that just plane makes people feel good. And I think, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.960 especially now considering that so many people are stressed out 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.680 and anxious, cava is sort of an of our time 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:50.480 agent of peace. Really, you know, as one anthropologist said, 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.680 you know, you cannot hate with cava in you. Uh, 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.960 It's it's an agent of dispute resolution. Let's say you 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.160 and I have something going on between us. You know what, ever, 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.120 you're piste off at me, I'm piste off at you. 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.240 There's something wrong. We get together, we sit down, we 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.920 drink cava. We just hang out for a while and 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.640 do that, and then afterwards we talk it through and 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.320 when we leave, it's done. It's finished, it's over, it's settled. 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.480 Maybe I owe you a pig or something, but it's over. 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:22.600 And so it's an agent not only of kinshipping community, 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:29.200 bringing people together, but it's also very useful for dispute resolution. Uh. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.720 You know, you want to honor a dignitary or a 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.680 visiting chief, you throw a really wonderful cava celebration, or 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:39.920 you bring a big beautiful bundle of cava roots to 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.760 a wedding, you know, to give to the bride and groom. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.680 All of these things show the real central importance of 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.240 this plant and it's culture. I mean, people love cava 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.760 and it makes them feel terrific. So the extension of 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.679 that to cava bars all over the US and Europe. 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.240 It just makes sense. Although I really do I do 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.360 prefer the island experience I can. I can imagine you 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.000 know a lot of what you're saying saying Chris, it 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.440 sounds like what I read in here and learn about, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.760 say coca um in Bolivia and Peru and parts of Colombia, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.160 or what one might hear read about, you know, tobacco 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:17.559 and more traditional uses in the Americas, or may be 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.520 caught in uh in Yemen and East Africa. You know, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:23.360 the same thing you hear about coca being given to 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.320 the pope or the queen or the visiting president or 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.760 what have you. So in terms of I mean, how 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.160 would you compare it to those sorts of things in 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:37.040 that context? Quite similar? If you have chewed coca leaf, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.880 you know this. You can't get high doing that. You 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.760 can try, you can try with all your might, but 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.600 you're not going to get high on it. Um. You 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.880 may feel a little bit more clear minded, you may 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:55.800 adjust to altitude better. Um, you know, feel kind of 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.839 like you had a cup of tea, perhaps, but you're 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.960 not going to get a different state of mind. If 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.679 you drink good cava. I mean good cava, I don't 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.160 mean the dishwater thin stuff that some people prepare from 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.440 dried cova powder. But if you really drink good cava, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.680 you feel it, You feel it significantly, and it lasts 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.559 for a couple of hours. And uh, it isn't it 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.840 isn't comparable to coke. I mean, I've chewed coca hundreds 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.600 of times and drunk the tea many many times, you 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.360 know in the andies especially, and um certainly have you 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.800 know been in and out of ceremonies where tobacco is 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.680 uh widely you know and specifically used, But they don't 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.679 compare to cava. The effects are just utterly different. And 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.120 when you first have that cava wave that as it's 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.560 going down your throat you feel your entire body and 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:57.800 nervous system just kind of just spreading out through your 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.360 entire body, you realize, oh, this is a different thing. 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:05.320 It's not like anything. M h. Now, So what was 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:10.360 your first encounter with Well, my very first encounter was 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.320 at a dinner party in nineteen seventy nine in a 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:18.400 very elegant neighborhood called Fisher Hill in Brookline, Massachusetts. And 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:22.319 I was in this baronial manner that this rich friend 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.640 had and um, his brother was there, and after dinner, 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.319 his brother took out this jar and stuck a chopstick 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.240 in it and pulled out this big black ball of 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.680 goo about the size of a small marble, and he 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.760 handed to me and he said, try this. We were herbalist, 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.439 you know, so we did they like, you know, somebody'd 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.000 always be pulling an extract out of the pocket, like hey, 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.240 I just made an amazing you know whatever. Uh, you know, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.400 ginger and be pollen extract, Try this or something. So 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.920 I said, well, what is this and he said kava 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.520 And I said, okay, you know what's it going to 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.760 do to me? And he said, you know, you'll feel it? 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.520 And so I put this ball of black goo in 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:08.120 my mouth and my tongue started to numb and uh. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:14.880 In moments, I was pleasantly and delightfully high. Um. The light, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.720 which was low in the dining room where we were sitting, 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:22.160 was had more sparkled to it, my hearing was more acute. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.760 I had this delightful sense of relaxation and peace. And 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.760 I said, is this stuff legal? And he said, yeah, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:34.720 it's legal and um. But it wasn't until nineteen ninety 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.920 five that I actually got to Vona Watu and began, 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.080 you know, my my real serious path with it. But 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:48.640 after that dinner party, I found the entity that had 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.720 supplied him with that little jar of goo and got 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.679 some myself and experimented with it over time. But when 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.760 I finally went to Vona Wattu, I was taken pretty 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.600 promptly into an Aka mall, which is a place we 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.000 had drink cava, and I had a couple of shells 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.360 of cava, and I then I got it was like, 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.520 oh right, okay, you can go very very deep at 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.720 this stuff. This is this is not some sort of 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.040 like little light buzz that you get from a ballago 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.079 in your mouth. This is this is you know, pretty 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.720 much as deep as you want to go, frankly, And 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.480 so that turned me onto cava. And I think that 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.120 we are certainly in my case, I'm drawn to certain plants. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.880 I'm drawn to Oshawa Ganda, I'm drawn to the Ayahuasca plants. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.320 I'm drawn to cava, to coffee in a huge way. 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.800 I've researched coffee all over the world, maka um you know, 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.920 Rodeola many other plants have really pulled me in in 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.800 a big way. And cava is certainly very very high 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.920 on that list. And why did it take so long? 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.079 I mean, why the fifteen or sixteen years before the 0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:59.920 first time you tried it and you're going to find 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.360 a want to? I mean, what would prompted I visit 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:08.960 in Well, it was actually hard to uh for me 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.920 to find out as much about Cava as I wanted to. 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.600 I only got a little bits of information here and there. 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.000 And I was not familiar at the time with some 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.960 of the better botanical libraries where I could have gotten 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:27.000 much more. Frankly, I could have gotten good anthropological information 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.040 on Cava, but I didn't know where to go. And 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:35.120 then in ninety I was basically hired by a couple 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:41.160 who had purchased a massive botanical extraction facility in New Jersey, gigantic, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:46.200 largest in North America. And they hired me because they 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.880 wanted to know what to do, uh, And I said, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.200 I think you should develop cava And they said, well, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:55.760 what do we need to do to do that? And 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.440 I said, you send me to the South Pacific and 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.040 they said, okay, when can a start And I said, 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.640 like now and they said great. And that began actually 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:11.040 a twenty one year engagement in which I have investigated 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:16.880 medicinal plants and food crops and spices all over the globe. Uh, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.200 you know, and it really um threw me into what 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.160 I wanted to do mostly, which was be an explorer, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:30.240 helped to develop sustainable chains of trade, make a difference 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:35.320 with indigenous native people, and in the process have remarkable 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.560 and extraordinary experiences. I mean, you describe at one point 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.960 cava as the main religion of the Melanesian people? Is it? 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.280 In fact? I mean akin to a religion way we 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:51.520 think about it, Well, it's not akin to a religion, 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.160 and that there's no dogma, and there's no central person. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.080 You know, there's no oh, follow the teachings of Saint Cava. 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.960 You know, that's not happening. But what does happen is 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:08.440 a type of behavior, a type of listening, a type 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:15.080 of consideration that is engendered by drinking cava with others. 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.240 I mean, I've sat in Um a couple of times 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.680 and these magnificent cava ceremonies with like a whole crowded 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.000 knock them holl just full of chiefs, you know, and 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.960 everybody getting called up in turn and drinking this insanely 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:36.120 strong cava they called stone cava, which is minced with 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.200 a coral head, so that you erupture every last cell 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.400 of this really fibrous cava root, giving every little bit 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.280 of the relaxing compounds out there and into the water, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.720 and um, you know, it's magical. It's just plain magical, 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.800 a breathtaking li So and then you go out underneath 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.120 the stars, or you know, in case of my so 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.440 called home village, staring across the bay at a live 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.560 volcano that's lighting up the sky purple and orange and gold, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.200 and you just stand there and it's breathtaking, and you 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.479 get a sense of the the absolute tiny nous of 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:19.120 us and the absolute gigantic nature of everything else. When 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:24.560 it was it that Westerner's first encountered cova, I think 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:29.280 Captain Cook was one of the first to encounter it, 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.480 and he found the habit disgusting and didn't want it 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.080 to take place on his boat. Um, and that did 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.720 not endear him to island people, for whom cove is 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:44.760 the central, most esteemed artifact in their culture. But in general, 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:49.400 I think the fact is that European invaders did not understand, 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:55.520 mostly didn't care to understand, and found alarming almost everything 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.359 about Native people, you know the basics of how they lived, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.520 what they did, and didn't seem to know, how they behave, 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.360 what they ate, how they ate, what they drank, how 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.639 they drank. I mean it was it was a disgust 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.880 and a loathing that went out in all directions. And eventually, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.359 of course Captain Cook was killed because he was just 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.920 playing an idiot and he you know, had no consideration 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.920 for the native people, and he suffered terribly as a result. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:41.560 We'll be talking more after we hear this ad. You 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.359 describe in the book the role of the missionary showing 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.560 up in the eighteenth and ninth lad eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.119 and you know, las Captain Cook's crew take sort of 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.600 down on the whole Cava tradition and just say a 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.679 little more about that role of the missionaries. And you 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:02.240 know what they did around Cava, well, missionaries as they 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:07.440 went through the various Pacific islands, tried their best to 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:12.679 get um, you know, native people, to stop being heathens 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.880 and to become good Christians. And so that meant, of course, 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:24.480 you know, learning Christian doctrine and following certain prescribed roles, 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.280 including of course tithing, you know, giving resources that they 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.280 didn't have two people they didn't know for purposes. They'd 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.280 never find out about UM as somehow part of their 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.520 salvation plan. And it is really a big con job 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.600 from beginning to end. UM in some cases. In many 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.920 cases the missions though at the very same time provided 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:53.440 education and medicine. It's a very confusing mixture of elements. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:58.640 You know, if you want to seduce people and dissuade 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.440 them from their tragedi sational path and their traditional knowledge, 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.639 then you have to offer them something. You can't just 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.119 sort of walk around with a stick and demand that 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.359 they changed their ways. And so, you know, they showed 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:16.080 up with trinkets and education that is useful for sure, 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.040 and medicine that is valuable in other things. And UH 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.440 in the islands to one extent or another greatly depending 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:29.600 on the dundun denomination that they represented UM, they either 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:35.040 tried outright to ban kava or to somehow modify it. 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.480 The Catholics were kind of the smartest of all because 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.960 their approach was sort of like what they did in Mexico, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.359 you know, with the yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you know data, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.679 the dad's fine, no problem, no problem. But you know, 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:50.919 here's how you need to worship and here's what you 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.440 need to do. And I think with uh kava, certainly 0:20:55.600 --> 0:21:00.800 in Bonawatu um to the extent, I mean, to the 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:05.560 greatest extent, it wound up being a better preserved Cavia 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:11.080 culture uh than let's say in Fiji, Samoa, Tongua, Tahiti 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.880 um and and continued to flourish. There wasn't the same 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:20.280 attempt to ban it outright, and any attempts that did 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:25.080 start were quickly just eliminated. Um. And So how the 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:30.200 Catholic missionaries really got a hold in Vonawatu was by 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.840 saying yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, drink your cob every evening. 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.199 Sure that's fine, blah blah blah blah blah, but do 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.399 this as well. Be good Catholics this way. So lots 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.960 of different influences, because you know, everybody's got their own 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.120 idea of what of what religion is, and every Christian 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.080 missionary has their own idea of what they're actually representing. 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.760 So it's a largely confused, ham fisted affair out there. Right. Well, 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:56.480 you make me think, on the one hand, of some 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.320 of the Catholic missionaries, you know, seeking to ban affect 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.800 banning co in Latin America and punishing people for coca chewing. 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.160 And then the other hand, I think about the Protestant 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.960 missionaries and figures who played a big role in sort 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.639 of banning the opium control UH monopolies in Philippines and 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.160 elsewhere to later points. So, you know, and I guess 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.639 the similar roles played oftenized by some of these missionaries 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:20.520 and colonial governments in Africa of Vius of the traditional 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.879 alcohol use. So it's a fairly global phenomenon. But they 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:26.800 actually do ban it, right, I mean in some of 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.880 these islands, and they punish people for using it. They 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.240 have in different islands for a time. Yes. On the 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:38.440 other hand, there's a wonderful photograph of UH Pope John 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:43.000 Paul the Second drinking cava and Vona watu um, you know, 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.480 And yeah, I mean it. It depends on the denomination, 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.560 It depends on the missionaries. It depends on how zealous 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:53.960 and out of touch with reality they are. I mean, 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.840 you have to be out of touch with reality to 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.960 go to indigenous native people who have lived a certain 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.640 way for long, long, long, long time and tell them 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.320 that they're completely out to lunch in their approach to 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.560 their very mortal existence. And they ought to be worshiping 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.639 some guy they never met before previous and never heard about, 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.640 and start giving money to these people who they also 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.720 never heard never never heard of before, I never heard about. Oh, 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.080 and stop doing all this stuff you love. That's a 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.879 big Pilda swallow, right, you don't say if that Tahitian 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.719 prince you mentioned earlier, Paya was maybe the most fascinating 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:33.080 contemporary character. The most fascinating historical one was who fell 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:37.959 you write about named John From? Yeah, John From is 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:44.399 a legend. Um, He's a cargo cult messiah. The deal is, 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.160 you know, cargo ships travel all around the world, right, 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:54.800 and they constantly lose cargo, and cargo cults have evolved 0:23:54.840 --> 0:24:00.720 and developed around found cargo. And John From was supposedly 0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:05.200 this very tall, dignified, mysterious black man in a white 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:08.520 suit who showed up and would demand that they like 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:12.120 kill and roasted chicken for him, and just this mysterious 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:16.720 character overall, and he promised great riches. And they are 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.080 actually some people I don't know if there are anymore, 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:24.560 but up until certainly the eighties who were waiting around 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:29.840 for John From to come back. Um, you know, sometimes 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:34.520 what happens is there's a person you know, um, and 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.920 over time that person becomes a legend, and then that 0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:43.679 legend becomes a magical person, and then the you know, 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:45.840 the who they are, that what they do, the how 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:49.360 they do it all gets greatly exaggerated, and you've got 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:51.600 something like John from I mean, I don't know if 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:56.600 we'll ever know the real the earliest possible beginnings of this, 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:01.040 but yeah, he's a legendary character who brings riches through 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:05.959 lost cargo. That's so Chris, now to bring this up 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:08.760 to basically the latent end of the last century in 0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:12.400 the current century. So when you come back from Vanuata too, 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:14.320 and you're and you're you know, you're being hired by 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:17.520 this company that's interested in taking plant medicines and making 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:21.960 them more widely available, um, you know, for commercial purposes, um, 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:26.840 and health benefit purposes. UM. So what happens then, I mean, 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:30.040 I know, there's a period when it starts to spread, 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:33.680 and then there's a scare over the feared of toxicity 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:36.560 to people's livers of consuming it. I don't know, in 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:39.240 great amounts or in combination of the things. And that 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:43.719 seems to just tell us that that general story globally 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:47.000 as well as your role in it. Well, when I 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:52.880 came back from Bonawatu in nine, the company that had 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:56.959 hired me, Pure World, promptly started to develop a cava 0:25:57.119 --> 0:26:02.439 extract and within a year as time we had a 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:07.640 really remarkable, profoundly effective cova extract that could be either 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:12.480 a liquid or a powder. And um then that jump 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:18.640 started real imports from von Owatu. And you know, when 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:22.000 you do something like this, you realize you've got people 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:26.359 in native villages in far flung islands all over the place. 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:29.520 Maybe they got boats, maybe they don't. Maybe they're hiking 0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:33.440 from one village to another on foot all the time. Um. 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:37.080 And and there are many, many hundreds of thousands of 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.520 tons of cova in the ground all over these islands. 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:45.159 But how do you move some of that um, you know, 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:49.520 and get all the things you need like phyto sanitary 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:53.920 certificates you know for shipping and clearance from f d A, 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:57.920 and you know, all the right import licenses and all 0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:01.879 of that stuff is behind and pretty much every herb 0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:06.280 that exists. You know, if you're bringing Oshwa gande in 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:10.560 from India or rodeola from China, or you know, cava 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:14.400 from Bonawat, you have to set up a whole infrastructure. 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:16.719 So we had to do that. We had to do 0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:20.240 all of that, um, you know, working together with people 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:23.040 all over the Islands and in the United States and 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:27.359 shippers and all of that, and um we got a good, good, 0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:32.320 good business going for about ten years. And then, Um, 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:36.880 the toxicity thing was was very very sad because it 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:39.919 was complete bullshit from beginning to end, and none of 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:45.280 it was true. Uh. Really, it's not even a matter 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:48.320 that people consuming in large amounts or in interactions, whether 0:27:48.320 --> 0:27:51.720 the drugs was There's really nothing to it. You could 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:57.560 uh not begin to take enough supplementary cava to approach 0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:01.360 at any time what the Natives drink every single night 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:04.520 of their lives. If it were bad for you, they'd 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:12.240 all be dead. Um, they'll drink um the equivalent of ten, fifteen, 0:28:12.440 --> 0:28:16.040 twenty times the most you could possibly consume in a 0:28:16.119 --> 0:28:21.400 supplementary manner every single night. Um. No. I mean the 0:28:21.400 --> 0:28:24.840 the story to that is Classic Politics on an ABC 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:29.000 television special that I helped to land about cava back 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:33.600 in their early days, right after we'd gotten this huge 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:36.280 feature in the Wall Street Journal and everybody wanted to 0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:41.320 know about cava. Um. The director of the National Institutes 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:48.480 of Mental Health, having reviewed several European cava studies on anxiety, said, 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:52.440 if we have American studies that show these same results, 0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:56.640 will have no choice but to recommend cava. And for 0:28:56.720 --> 0:29:01.000 the pharmaceutical entities who were selling Ben's oar diaz appeene drugs, 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:05.880 um you know of all different kinds, an ax er ax, halcyon, 0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:09.440 you know the works. That was the most terrifying thing 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:14.240 that guy could ever have said. And one week before 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:18.360 the release of the publication of the Duke University Medical 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:22.560 Center studies showing that cava quote is proves every bit 0:29:22.640 --> 0:29:26.040 is effective in the treatment of mild to moderate anxiety 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:31.280 as benzo diazepine class of drugs. One week controlled double 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.840 blind studies basically showing that cava was as good or 0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:39.720 double blind controlled human Yeah, double blind, placebo controlled human 0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:43.880 clinical studies conducted a Duke University Medical Center. Exactly what 0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:47.880 the director of the Institute National Institutes of Mental Health 0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:51.720 had been talking about one week before that came out 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:57.240 all of a sudden, overnight something nobody had ever heard about. 0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:03.160 Twenty one cases of talk cava related liver toxicity, and 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:08.080 it tanked Cava overnight. And what happened from that time 0:30:08.760 --> 0:30:13.400 was that several groups of medical researchers and specialists went 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:18.560 through that report and discovered that of the twenty one cases, 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:23.560 twenty of them could be summarily explained away. It was 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:28.080 people using benzo diazepines and a lot of alcohol and 0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:32.560 then subsequently also taking some cava, and one woman who 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:36.360 was anomalous that they don't know anything about her previous 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:40.920 liver history. But basically the job that was intended to 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:43.760 be done to just blow cava out of the water, 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:48.840 it worked, and insurance companies wouldn't ensure companies for having 0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:52.280 cava anymore. And you know, there were some class action 0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:57.000 suits and all the usual ambulance chasing and that gravely, 0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:02.080 gravely damaged the cava market and gravely damage the income 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:05.040 of indigenous people all over the Pacific. And you're talking 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:08.760 about the period roughly the first decade of the two thousands, 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:11.360 like two thousand two to two thousand and six, seven eight. 0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:12.760 I mean it was not just in the US, right, 0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:16.479 I mean you had I think Germany and Switzerland, the UK, France, 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:20.240 you know, all banning it for a while, is that right? Right? 0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:24.920 Because of this one study that wasn't a study, correct, Chirse. 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:27.120 I'll tell you it's reminding me. We did an episode 0:31:27.120 --> 0:31:30.239 a little while back about Cratum creatum or what they 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:33.920 call in Southeast Asia kreaton, and a very similar thing 0:31:33.960 --> 0:31:36.800 where a study comes out saying fortis or whatever, and 0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:39.760 then when people start digging, it turns out that every 0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:44.320 or virtually every claim is bogus. Uh, you know, knocking 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:47.520 out some product that seems to have real promise coming 0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:50.240 In both cases, I mean from you know, another part 0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:52.040 of the world, you know, either Southeast Asia and in 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:54.360 your case South Pacific. You know, it's like it's like 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:55.920 when the New York Times put out a study went 0:31:55.960 --> 0:31:58.760 forty years ago, you know, front page, the LSD splits 0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:01.320 your chromosomes. And then I think of how many people 0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:02.800 I knew were in the middle of lst trip and 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:04.560 they started freaking out that their kids were going to 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:06.720 be born to foreign because there's chromosomes are going to 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:09.240 be split and turn will be totally bogus. But it's 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:13.960 those kind of scary stories that get so well publicized. Well, 0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:18.040 in the case of protecting at that time a twenty 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:25.880 billion dollar pharma sector, the benzo diazepine drugs for anxiety. 0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:29.080 It was a matter of self preservation for whoever, you know, 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:31.920 whoever was hired to do this. It was a hit job. 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:35.640 And yeah, I mean I remember very well when it 0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:39.600 was you know, LSD would damage your chromosomes. So let 0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:42.200 me ask you this, why do you think kava did 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:46.200 not take off until you show it up given the 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:50.760 beneficial property associated with it. For one thing, cava doesn't 0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:54.840 taste good. Okay, nobody drinks cava and goes, God, that's 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:58.600 delicious cava, whereas you might have an enchanting cup of 0:32:58.640 --> 0:33:02.120 coffee and just go, wow, this is a beautiful cup 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:05.880 of coffee. I mean, the different agents you described are very, 0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:09.120 very different, one from another. Coffee is something you can 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:15.280 have any day unless you're caffeine intolerant. It is fragrant 0:33:15.400 --> 0:33:20.720 and delicious if it's well made. And cava still nobody 0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:24.960 really set up an infrastructure for cava trade until the nineties. 0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:29.440 But in addition to that, it doesn't taste good, you know, 0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:32.040 and the more you drink it, the worse it tastes. 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:35.440 So you know, like you have a couple of shells 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:37.560 of cava your first time, you go wow, this is 0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:40.040 great stuff, and I tell you what, by the third 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:42.440 or fourth night, you're just going gun. I hate the 0:33:42.520 --> 0:33:46.880 smell of this stuff. It really does not enchant you. 0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:49.520 I don't know any Native guys who love the taste 0:33:49.520 --> 0:33:53.920 of cava, none of them. When you think of the 0:33:54.040 --> 0:34:00.000 overall properties of something like you think of cannabis, okay um. 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:03.600 For most people and not for all people, if you 0:34:03.680 --> 0:34:07.320 consume cannabis in some manner, you're going to get this 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:11.239 delightful or pleasant you for a sense. It's going to 0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:16.440 feed your endocannabinoid system in hundreds of different ways that 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:20.719 we know are valuable for harmonizing organ systems between each other. 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.280 It's going to do all kinds of intrinsically good things. 0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:28.400 And the fragrance of it, and hopefully the flavor of it, 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:31.480 if it's cured right, will make it something that you're 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:35.560 happy to go back to again and again. Um cava, 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.680 you know it's a tougher it's a tougher fight. I 0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:42.719 don't expect cava ever to be huge. I just don't 0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:46.040 think that will happen. And I think that cava's chance 0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:51.640 to play a significant role in UM. The relief of 0:34:51.680 --> 0:34:56.319 mild to moderate anxiety was very, very badly damaged by 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:59.680 that study. And I do think that cava will continue 0:34:59.719 --> 0:35:03.319 to slowly creep on back somewhat, but I don't think 0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:07.440 we'll ever see the very very high popularity of it 0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:10.160 that we saw initially, and and part of that is 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:13.759 due to the flavor barrier for sure. So in all 0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:15.520 these cava bars, I mean these a couple of the 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:17.719 cava bars around the US, and I guess a whole 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:20.239 bunch around the world. I mean, are people kind of 0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:22.680 holding their nose and like, you know, kind of grimacing 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:25.960 as they drink this stuff, or are there are flavors 0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:28.880 being added, or are people consuming in ways which remove 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:33.879 the offensive elements of smell and taste. Well, you can't 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:36.799 remove the offensive elements of smell and taste. You can 0:35:36.880 --> 0:35:40.239 mask them. You know. You can put cava into say 0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:44.080 a coconut pineapple drink, as some places do, and that 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:47.440 will make it more tolerable. But yeah, for the most part, 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:50.960 I mean that the good cava bars like Kanaka Cava 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:53.920 and Kyle Lua on the Big Island of Hawaii. You know, 0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:55.960 they got a great big cava bowl there and they 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:57.759 just keep stirring it and stirring it and they fill 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:00.120 up a coconut shell and you drink it, and yeah, 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:05.560 it's full on, boy, this isn't delicious kava, that's what 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:09.319 it is. Yeah, you know there are people out there 0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:13.360 who will drink Yeagermeister. Now, Yeagermeister is one of the 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:19.000 most offensive, nasty tasting boozes on the market, Okay, and 0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:24.040 yet you have people who favor it, who gravitate toward it, 0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:28.640 who have Yeagermeister parties, who drink a lot of it 0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:31.719 and go figure or look at red Bull. I mean, 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:35.640 red Bull is just plain nasty. It's not good tasting 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:38.879 at all. Uh, they make no pretense of it being 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:42.120 good tasting. People get a buzz and a lift from it, 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:45.440 and it doesn't stop them from using well over a 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:49.080 billion dollars worth a year. So you know, it's an 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:52.880 odd thing about flavor and all of the organ elleptic 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:58.520 properties of these things. I mean, tobacco fundamentally tastes just 0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:03.200 horrifyingly bad. And yet because it it does what it 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:08.719 does in terms of you know, suppressing uh, certain emotional sensitivities, 0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:12.560 it's highly desirable among a lot of people. And you're right, 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:17.359 it has a major central role in the America's as 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:22.080 a sacred medicine. Um. You know, in in ayahuasca ceremonies, 0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:26.520 and I've sat in about a hundred thirty five ceremonies 0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:32.160 in the Amazon, there's always tobacco. Always. Usually the shamans 0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:37.680 are smoking mapacho, which is the Amazonian broad leaf tobacco, 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:42.719 which contains twenty to twenty four times the nicotine of 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:46.200 the Virginian tobacco that you know gets used to make 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:50.600 cigarettes here in the US. And um, sometimes they'll do 0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:53.640 what's called the soap lar. They'll they'll sit down in 0:37:53.680 --> 0:37:58.000 front of you and they'll take a mapaco, a cigarette 0:37:58.040 --> 0:38:01.759 made of this Amazonian tobacco, and they'll blow it at 0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:04.200 your face, and they'll blow it on the top of 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:06.480 your head and down the back of your shirt and 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:09.600 into the palms of your hands, on the soles of 0:38:09.600 --> 0:38:12.840 your feet. You know, this whole ritualized thing. And I 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:15.319 have to say Ethan that even though I hate the 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:18.480 smell of tobacco and I don't want to be around 0:38:18.520 --> 0:38:23.000 people smoking cigarettes with something like a soaplar, I find 0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:29.319 it amazingly enjoyable and very much in keeping with what 0:38:29.400 --> 0:38:33.120 I want to have happened during an ayahuasca ceremony. So 0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:37.200 it's that's interesting to me because I really don't like 0:38:37.280 --> 0:38:40.880 tobacco at all. I've done the tobacco snuffs thing and 0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:43.640 that just made me puke and crap my brains out, 0:38:43.680 --> 0:38:46.879 and I don't want anything more to do with that. Um. 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:51.600 But people react differently. There's a tobacco preparation called bomble, 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:55.440 and it's this. You cook the tobacco down until you 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:59.759 have this black tar and you just put it your 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:03.040 fing your tip just to touch into the ombile, and 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:05.600 you put it on your tongue and in pretty short 0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:09.000 order you're very high. And I've done that bombile in 0:39:09.120 --> 0:39:14.440 ceremony and that was pretty pleasant actually. Um. But you know, 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:19.040 tobacco is extremely toxic, extremely So if you were to 0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:21.239 take a cigar and put it in a glass of 0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:24.040 water and leave it overnight and then in the morning 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:26.120 drink the glass of water, you'd be dead in about 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:30.400 half an hour. Let's take a break here and go 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:46.680 to an ad. So let me just read a paragraph 0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:49.560 from your book The years Ago and see would you 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:51.920 would you correct any of this or not? But you 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:54.799 basically say, you know, here's the recap. What we know 0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:58.480 about Calva's pharmacological activity. The nature of the effects that 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:01.560 cover producers depends on the variety of cava plant being used, 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.160 the age of the plant, and the rage ratio of 0:40:04.280 --> 0:40:07.440 cavalact tones. I guess the key ingredient found in that type, 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:10.680 the potency of the cova preparation, whether it is consumed 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:12.640 on a full or empty stomach, the set in the 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.040 setting of the user will all influence the actual effects 0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:18.440 each user will experience. First and foremost, it's a local 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:21.880 anesthetic with potency similar to that of cocaine and procaine. 0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:24.520 It numbs the tongue and the throat when drunk in 0:40:24.560 --> 0:40:27.719 its traditional form or when taken orally as a liquid extract. 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:31.000 It's a first rate sedative, producing a state of calm 0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:34.600 and promoting sleep if taken in sufficient quantity. Cobb is 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:37.120 an excellent analgesic, but its mode of activity as a 0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:40.520 pain reliever has yet to be determined. It's superior to 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.920 aspirin and its analgesic effects, and less potent than morphine. 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:46.520 Cobb is an excellent muscle relaxing and can make the 0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:48.600 pain of an aching back, a sore neck, or any 0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:52.120 other cramped, sore, injured muscle disappear as an aid in 0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:55.080 the relief of both systitis and go out gonorrhea. Cava 0:40:55.120 --> 0:40:57.960 appears to be beneficial, though the exact mechanism for this 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:01.160 action is not yet fully understood. Some researchers believe that 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:06.040 this action is due to kava's anti fungal activity. The 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:09.839 cavalac tones have demonstrated significant anti fungal activity against some 0:41:09.960 --> 0:41:14.160 human pathogens. Unfortunately, appears to have no effect on Candida 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:16.720 albacin's yeast. I no idea what that is. It also 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:21.560 possesses anti convulsant properties. Promising studies with epileptic show that 0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:25.840 cova enhances control over grandmall seizures. While colba produces no 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:28.799 side effects when taken in moderate doses, its abuse can 0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:31.920 immediately lead to health problems. There was one study in 0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:35.960 the late eighties among Aboriginal showing excessive consumption leading to 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:39.560 deteriorating health. So would you stick by all of that? 0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:43.440 Add to it does take away any of that? Well, no, 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.200 I would stand by that. The only thing I would 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:49.359 add but I do think that I covered that otherwise 0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:52.720 in the book is that you know, in the right set, 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:56.359 in the right setting, I mean, this is a wonderful thing. 0:41:56.520 --> 0:42:00.880 You know. I taught ethnobotany at the University of Massachusetts 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:05.759 for fourteen years, and every semester we would have a 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:09.240 class where we would make cava and I had cava 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:12.759 shipped in, uh from Hawaii. I'd have it shipped in 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:17.080 fresh and or or I also had some freeze dried 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:21.319 cava that was not commercially available, and we would go 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:24.840 out outside. The students in my class and I we 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:26.960 would sit around and we would make cava and we 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:30.080 would drink cava, and we would do it as close 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:33.080 to island style as you could on the grass outside 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:35.640 of an engineering building on a college campus on a 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:40.279 sunny day. And the students loved it. They just loved it. 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.400 They loved everything about it, the feeling of it, the 0:42:43.480 --> 0:42:46.640 fact that they were you able to consume this plant 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:49.759 and feel it right away. They enjoyed it very much. 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:53.880 Nobody ever had a bad time. Um. You know, some 0:42:54.320 --> 0:43:01.319 plants just confer more delightful properties than others, and cove 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:04.120 us one of those. Okay, so, Chris, so, so now 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:05.880 we've been talking, so our listeners are here, and this 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:08.480 thing go Wow, this could help with anxiety. It's already 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:12.000 been demonstrated. It appears to help with sleep right. It 0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:14.879 relaxes you, makes you feel kind of tranquil, but your 0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:18.799 mind stays clear. It can be kind of fun. So 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:22.120 what's your recommendation, and please get as specific as you 0:43:22.160 --> 0:43:25.920 feel comfortable doing so in terms of how and where 0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:28.359 people should be getting this, you know what forms should 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:31.000 be they consuming it in. What are the brands? Are 0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:34.759 the websites that you'd recommend, what are the dosages? What 0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:39.320 can you tell us? Well, okay, I think that two 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:42.840 companies who are doing cova right out there are both 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:47.880 making liquid extracts. One is Gaya and one is Herb 0:43:48.040 --> 0:43:51.840 Farm and that's pH A r M. And they're both 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:55.879 very fine brands. They're both using bonawa to cova. They're 0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.080 both doing a good job. If you want to have 0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:05.960 the cava experience that is that wave of relaxation, um, 0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:09.959 you know that that really feeling the cava, then those 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:14.279 are two good ways to do it because you can try, um, 0:44:14.320 --> 0:44:17.040 you know, as much as you want until you get 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:21.160 that relaxing feeling. What I would do with something like 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:26.319 the Guya or the Herb Farm um extracts is take 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:30.960 a little paper dixie cup, a little one and put 0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:34.560 about an ounce of water in the bottom of it, 0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:40.040 squirt in two full droppers full of the cava extract, 0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:42.160 and drink it on the spot. I mean, bang it 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:44.920 right back. And the reason you do that is that 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:48.080 if you don't, the relaxing compounds will stick to the 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:50.120 bottom of the cup and you won't get the effects. 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:52.440 So you want to put that in right away and 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:55.239 just throw it back. You'll have the cava experience. And 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:57.920 if you do that and then you want more, you 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:02.400 wait twenty or twenty five minutes. You don't do shots 0:45:02.480 --> 0:45:05.319 or shells of cava back to back. If you have 0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:09.120 the opportunity to go to Vanawa to South Pacific, then 0:45:09.200 --> 0:45:12.040 you can drink real fresh cava and cava bars. But 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:15.280 most people can't do that. So I would say Guya 0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:19.520 and herb Farm are excellent ways to go. And if 0:45:19.640 --> 0:45:24.600 just for anxiety or sleep, same thing, or the capsules effective, 0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:28.480 or there are other forms of consuming it. Yeah, I 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:34.120 think that Guaya has some cava capsules as well. Basically, 0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:38.440 I'm not sure who else does right now. I actually 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:41.440 haven't looked at that side of things in a little while. 0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:47.719 There are also some concentrated cava pastes out there that 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:51.799 you can find that will deliver a good, strong cava experience. 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.359 But I think for capsules, yeah, I think you can 0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:57.319 get those through Guya as well. And if you want 0:45:57.360 --> 0:45:59.480 to take it every night for sleeping, what do you 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:05.200 suggest in Well, you probably would want an encapsulated cova 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:08.360 just so you don't have to deal with the flavor barrier. 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.680 And um, you know, cova is interesting. It does help 0:46:12.719 --> 0:46:15.280 a lot of people to sleep better. It doesn't help 0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:18.400 everybody to do so, but it does help a lot 0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:22.080 of people to get a deeper more uh, you know, 0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:26.160 just relaxed rest really really relaxes your muscles in a 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:29.319 big way. M h. And you know, I did an 0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:32.760 episode about micro dosing and a lot of episodes about 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:35.640 you know, quote unquote macro dozing. And then in between 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:37.840 is something you know, I've called mini dozing, but I 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:39.759 saw you were writing you were calling it. I think 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:43.200 MENI dozing right, but the middling dose. And so I'm 0:46:43.239 --> 0:46:47.000 just wondering what about with cava um and what about 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:51.279 if people are trying to treat anxiety. What's your recommendation 0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:56.759 about that. Well, here's what we know. In cava. There's 0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:00.640 a group of compounds called the cava lac tones. And 0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:04.879 if you look at a standardized cava extract, whether it's 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:08.360 in a capsule or a fluid, it will give the 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:13.800 caval actone value. Okay. Um All of the human studies 0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:19.640 are done in increments of seventy milligrams of caval act tones. 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:23.600 So and generally the studies that show the best anti 0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:30.040 anxiety effects are three or four times that per day. Um. So, 0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:34.759 let's say two hundred ten to two hundred eighty milligrams 0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:39.120 of caval act tones a day that is sufficient enough 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:44.800 to significantly quell mild to moderate anxiety. Won't do anything 0:47:44.920 --> 0:47:48.960 for extreme anxiety, just like we don't have anything for 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:53.120 extreme depression other than you know, heavy duty tripping under 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:58.600 supervised conditions. Um. So, that's what I would say. You know, 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:02.359 you look for an absoluated cava product that, let's say 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:08.200 per capsule, delivers seventy milligrams of caval actnes per capsule, 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.480 and you do three or four of those a day, 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:14.520 and that will put you in the clinically verified zone 0:48:14.800 --> 0:48:19.680 for helping to manage mild to moderate anxiety. I see. 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:22.000 And is it correct to say people do not build 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.279 up tolerance to cava in the way they do to 0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:29.440 some other drugs. Well, I mean I never have, but 0:48:29.719 --> 0:48:32.279 you know, I'm I can't be a clinical study of one. 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:36.600 I mean, I think if you drink cava in large 0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:41.919 quantities every single evening, the way they do in the Islands, um, 0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:44.440 at the very least, you build up a little bit 0:48:44.480 --> 0:48:49.040 of a tolerance. But in terms of people managing mild 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:52.840 to moderate anxiety, we haven't seen that in any of 0:48:52.880 --> 0:48:57.400 the studies. And what about combining it with alcohol or 0:48:57.680 --> 0:49:01.800 cannabis or CBD or do we know anything about the 0:49:01.880 --> 0:49:07.560 drug interactions. Yeah, I'm not a friend of combining cava 0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:12.520 with alcohol. I think the cava accentuates the alcohol and 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:17.040 the and the alcohol accentuates the cava in weird ways. 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.760 I don't think it's a good combination cava and cannabis. 0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:28.920 That's these days very common. Um. You know, the cava 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:35.520 adds extra relaxing dimension to the cannabis, and the cannabis 0:49:35.640 --> 0:49:38.600 gives an extra lift to the cava. That's the way 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:43.520 I would describe it. And it can only grow in 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:45.400 this part of the world, or could it grow in 0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:51.239 many other places? Well, cava needs to be in an 0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:58.799 an equatorial tropical environment and it favors very easy to 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:03.480 drain bulk anne soil um. So for example, in Vanawatu, 0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:06.839 where all of those islands are volcanic, every last one 0:50:06.880 --> 0:50:10.320 of them, uh, the soil is really ideal. And you 0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:14.479 have similar things in Samoa and Tonga uh and other 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:17.640 parts of the Pacific Islands where those islands themselves are 0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:20.839 volcanic and so the soil is right. You know. Uh. 0:50:21.040 --> 0:50:25.400 Kava grown in in Hawaii for example, which I have 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:28.680 a long involvement with. It's very very good uh and 0:50:28.800 --> 0:50:31.200 that owes to the soil. But you know, if you 0:50:31.239 --> 0:50:33.560 were to try it, like say, to grow it, you 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:36.279 know you see Davis or something where they have you know, 0:50:36.440 --> 0:50:40.719 phenomenal agricultural geniuses, you couldn't. You just couldn't do it. 0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:45.080 And Vanuatum, how is this business working out for them now? 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:47.520 Are they making more and more money? I mean, obviously 0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:49.600 COVID you know the first the uh you know, the 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:52.240 liber disease thing, and then COVID you know, we're obviously 0:50:52.320 --> 0:50:55.399 major knocks and typhoons as well. But are they doing 0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:58.000 better and better in this area and is it having 0:50:58.040 --> 0:51:01.279 a generally positive impact done people in the islands or 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:07.880 is it bringing some unwashed Well, look that the steady, 0:51:08.040 --> 0:51:12.480 the steady on slot of multicultural influences from all over 0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:16.839 the world on any place is disorienting for people no 0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:20.320 matter where they are. But I will say that in Vonawatu, 0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:24.200 the wonderful thing that has happened with the cova trade 0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:28.480 is that the cava growers and the cava shippers are 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:32.440 making far far more money than they ever did, and 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:35.720 that means that you know, more of them can afford boats. 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:38.919 The kids are dressed better, They have things they need, 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:43.480 like you know, cooking pots and washing basins and stuff 0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:46.760 that we take completely for granted, and newer bush knives 0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:50.840 and stuff like that. And it has really, uh frankly 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:56.920 transformed their lives in very positive ways, you know, from 0:51:56.400 --> 0:52:00.960 an access to goods and services ways. Uh, they're doing 0:52:01.040 --> 0:52:04.360 better now, and you know it's it's in that sense, 0:52:04.440 --> 0:52:07.520 it's what my friends and I hoped for in the beginning. 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:10.400 You know, wouldn't it be great if these people could have, 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:14.960 you know, take this tradition of theirs, uh, you know, 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:19.160 and earn a living and be less at the mercy 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:22.799 of forces all around them because they have some economic 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:27.200 stability and power, and thankfully that's exactly what has happened. 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:30.440 You know, not everybody in Vona Watu or in the 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:34.520 Pacific Islands is in the cava trade, so not everybody 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:38.319 um is equally benefiting from that. But that's true all 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:41.200 over the world, no matter what trade you're talking about. 0:52:41.760 --> 0:52:46.359 So in the case of h Vona Watu cava, it's 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:50.399 been a big success. And you're right that COVID and 0:52:50.440 --> 0:52:54.279 other things over time have harmed it, but the overall 0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:58.239 condition of the trade and of the growers and of 0:52:58.360 --> 0:53:01.719 the cava bars and all of that, it's gone way 0:53:01.760 --> 0:53:05.440 way up in very gratifying ways. And there's not un 0:53:05.480 --> 0:53:10.200 any problems of over harvesting or endangering access the ability 0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:12.959 of locals to get quality cova. There's the market would 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:16.040 have to grow much more substantially before that was a concern. 0:53:18.719 --> 0:53:23.280 There is so much cava in the ground it's unimaginable, 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:27.240 you know, I mean, we're we're really talking many hundreds 0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:32.480 of thousands of tons um. You know that, because what 0:53:32.640 --> 0:53:36.680 happens ethan you pull a cava bush, okay, and so 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:40.560 you're after the route and the lateral roots, but you 0:53:40.600 --> 0:53:45.200 pull up this bush and it has maybe thirty five stocks, 0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:49.480 not one thirty five, and you cut each stock at 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:51.880 an angle and you stab it into the ground, and 0:53:51.920 --> 0:53:54.960 that grows a cova plant. So at a certain point 0:53:55.160 --> 0:53:58.560 you can't even grow anymore, you know, because over hill 0:53:58.600 --> 0:54:01.280 and dale, as far as you can see, under every tree, 0:54:01.320 --> 0:54:04.400 and further and further and further and further, it's cava. 0:54:05.320 --> 0:54:10.560 So at this point in time, there is no concern 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:17.960 about it being endangered, no concern about it being over harvested. Uh, 0:54:18.080 --> 0:54:21.680 no concern at all about any of that. So your 0:54:21.760 --> 0:54:24.960 prediction is that this is going to be a slow 0:54:25.080 --> 0:54:28.040 growth in the US and around the rest of the world. 0:54:28.120 --> 0:54:31.560 There's more and more people appreciate it, but ultimately inherently 0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:36.520 limited because of the smell and taste issues. Well, yeah, 0:54:36.600 --> 0:54:39.640 I think so. But also think about it this way. 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:44.120 I mean, let's say that we have all kinds of 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:47.120 foods in our kitchen, right, you know, we have things 0:54:47.120 --> 0:54:49.719 that we eat every day, we have things on occasion, 0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:53.000 we have things that we eat every once in a while. Um, 0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:56.560 all of these plants, whether you're talking creatum, whether you're 0:54:56.600 --> 0:55:01.240 talking Salvia divinorum, whether you're talking cava, they're all part 0:55:01.280 --> 0:55:07.000 of this vast buffet of psychoactive plants, and some are 0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:11.040 just naturally more appealing to people than others and something 0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:13.399 that they want to turn to more often than they 0:55:13.440 --> 0:55:16.960 do with others. That's just the way it is with plants, 0:55:17.160 --> 0:55:22.120 with different items of clothing, with foods, with music, it's 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:26.279 no different. Um Cava, you know, it will never be 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:30.799 as big as alcohol. Cava will probably hold its sort 0:55:30.840 --> 0:55:35.360 of moderate place in society, and maybe we'll see the 0:55:35.480 --> 0:55:39.279 European bands eventually go away because they're fool harded, eat 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:43.440 fool hardy and based on non reality. Um but I 0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:46.080 don't think it's going to be huge huge. I think 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:50.279 it's just part of the psychoactive buffet. Just as you know. 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:53.000 I used to direct my students in class to go 0:55:53.040 --> 0:55:56.960 to this particular place that made hot chocolate, and I 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.320 would say to them, I don't care what hot chocolate 0:55:59.320 --> 0:56:01.640 you've had in life, I don't care where you've been. 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:04.919 Go to this place, drink a cup of it, come 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:07.080 back and tell us about it. And they would all 0:56:07.080 --> 0:56:09.759 come back and go, WHOA man. I was high for 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:14.080 hours on that, and this place just had a particular 0:56:14.120 --> 0:56:17.759 way of doing it so that it was as concentrated 0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:24.120 a coco elevating experiences you could possibly have, um, you know, 0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:27.480 and that's something that people will go back to taste good, 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:32.080 really amazing, love the effect, you know, all of that. 0:56:32.520 --> 0:56:34.359 People are going to reach for that more than they're 0:56:34.360 --> 0:56:37.319 going to reach for cava for sure. So Chris, just 0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:40.160 to finish up here, I mean, you've spent many decades 0:56:40.280 --> 0:56:46.080 being a quote unquote medicine hunter, traveling the world, you know, finding, discovering, uh, 0:56:46.120 --> 0:56:48.319 you know, figuring out whether these things could be brought 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:51.560 to broader markets. So what are the other ones in 0:56:51.640 --> 0:56:56.359 your decades of travel and investigation that you're most excited 0:56:56.400 --> 0:56:58.960 about and why? And I really you could go on 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:00.680 for hours about this, but if you had to give 0:57:00.680 --> 0:57:05.200 me the highlights, what would you say? I would say 0:57:05.239 --> 0:57:09.800 that my involvement with Maka, which is a highly nutritious, 0:57:10.040 --> 0:57:14.320 stamina promoting route in the Andes, which I started working 0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:18.880 on in ninety eight. Um, that's been a very big, 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:23.720 deep involvement that I have loved tremendously. And the kava 0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:27.760 market didn't exist before my friends and I got involved, 0:57:27.800 --> 0:57:31.400 and now cove is everywhere around the world. I mean, Marca, 0:57:31.480 --> 0:57:36.600 excuse me, Um, Rodeo la Rosa, which I've investigated in 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:42.360 the central south of Siberia and the Shinjong region of China, 0:57:43.120 --> 0:57:49.600 is just remarkable for its overall health and vitality promoting properties. 0:57:49.640 --> 0:57:53.120 And I've worked with that extensively for years, and that's 0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:57.479 an involvement. I'm very proud of um Oshawa Ganda, which 0:57:57.560 --> 0:58:02.720 is also a vitality enhancing route from India and a 0:58:03.120 --> 0:58:07.240 key part of the ira Vedic tradition over there. I 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:09.960 work with that to this day. I work with commit 0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:15.080 commercial entities with Ashwaganda to this day, and and and 0:58:15.160 --> 0:58:19.880 other things like coffee, which I've investigated around the world, 0:58:20.280 --> 0:58:24.960 coco or that is cacao, the source of chocolate um 0:58:25.000 --> 0:58:28.560 and you know Amazonian plants. I mean, I've gone very 0:58:28.720 --> 0:58:33.080 very far and deep with the ingredients of ayahuasca, so 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:36.520 both the vine that's used to make it and also 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:41.200 the leaf and my Peruvian team and I did the 0:58:41.280 --> 0:58:46.320 only real legitimate survey on ayahuasca that's ever been done. 0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:49.160 Took us two years to do it. These have been 0:58:49.240 --> 0:58:51.360 some of the major plants. But you know, I've been 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:57.120 fortunate to research rosemary and time and hawthorne and olive 0:58:57.200 --> 0:59:02.200 leaf in Morocco, and um, you know, work all over 0:59:02.240 --> 0:59:06.560 Africa and the Middle East. You know, in Malaysia, I've 0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:10.640 worked with tonkat Ali, which is a humongous plant over 0:59:10.680 --> 0:59:14.800 there that almost nobody over here even knows. And many 0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:19.200 Thai plants in Thailand. Um, you know, the plants call 0:59:19.320 --> 0:59:22.160 to me and I get to go work with them, 0:59:22.200 --> 0:59:25.560 and sometimes I get to make a real and profound 0:59:25.640 --> 0:59:28.840 difference in the livelihoods and the and the fortunes of 0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:31.640 other people. And I love that. That's you know, that's 0:59:31.680 --> 0:59:36.320 the greatest reward reward I could possibly ask for. Well, Chris, 0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:39.600 on that note, I mean, god, I've loved this conversation 0:59:39.600 --> 0:59:41.600 with I've learned a hell of a lot, and I 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:44.439 think our listeners must have as well. So listen, thank 0:59:44.480 --> 0:59:47.360 you ever so much for joining me and my listeners 0:59:47.480 --> 0:59:52.320 on Psychoactive. Well, thank you Ethan Yet you ask great 0:59:52.400 --> 0:59:55.800 questions and I've enjoyed the time immensely. I'm glad we 0:59:55.960 --> 0:59:58.880 finally connected after sort of kind of like you know, 0:59:59.040 --> 1:00:03.080 rubbing or us at different conferences over time. It was 1:00:03.200 --> 1:00:05.840 nice to make a more of a real connection in 1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:08.840 New York, and I wish you continued success with this 1:00:09.000 --> 1:00:12.600 and to all of your listeners. Thanks for tuning in. Okay, 1:00:12.600 --> 1:00:22.400 thank you very much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell 1:00:22.440 --> 1:00:24.480 your friends about it, or you can write us a 1:00:24.520 --> 1:00:27.640 review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:00:28.000 --> 1:00:30.400 We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like 1:00:30.520 --> 1:00:33.440 to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave 1:00:33.480 --> 1:00:37.400 us a message at one eight three three seven seven 1:00:37.480 --> 1:00:43.440 nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:47.000 can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:50.080 find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You can 1:00:50.080 --> 1:00:54.280 also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is 1:00:54.320 --> 1:00:57.840 a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's 1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:01.920 hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noam Osband 1:01:02.000 --> 1:01:06.360 and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 1:01:06.520 --> 1:01:10.760 Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoma Pictures, Alex Williams 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:13.960 and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. 1:01:14.400 --> 1:01:18.200 Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1:01:18.280 --> 1:01:22.040 to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. 1:01:32.120 --> 1:01:35.880 Next week I'll be talking with Dr Gabor Matte, the 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:41.880 Hungarian Canadian physician from Vancouver who's influenced millions of people 1:01:42.000 --> 1:01:46.360 with his writing about addiction, trauma, pain, and the power 1:01:46.560 --> 1:01:50.280 of healing. I've always argued that addictions are rooted in trauma, 1:01:50.880 --> 1:01:54.320 and the reason the book is subtitled traum Ileus and 1:01:54.360 --> 1:01:57.880 Healing in a Toxic Culture is because the very conditions 1:01:57.880 --> 1:02:01.680 of life in modern day global it's corporate capitalist society 1:02:02.080 --> 1:02:05.760 actually traumatized people. Um they hurt people, they wound people, 1:02:06.240 --> 1:02:10.240 and that diseases of mind and body in this environment 1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:13.560 are not abnormal, they're normal responses to what is an 1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:17.280 abnormal culture. Subscribe to Psycoactive now see it, don't miss it.