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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello Psychoactive listeners. So today we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have a real adventurer as a guest. His name

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Speaker 1: is Chris killing and Chris kill Um has been studying

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Speaker 1: plant medicines for fifty years or more. He's written over

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Speaker 1: a dozen books. Um, he's trying of all the world

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the very first guest on on Psychoactive,

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Speaker 1: Andy Wile, says this about him. He says, Chris kill

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Speaker 1: him is a trustworthy guide on the medicine trail, full

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Speaker 1: of enthusiasm, wonder and respect for the wisdom of traditional cultures.

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Speaker 1: I respect his mission to make these plants and their

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Speaker 1: uses better known in our culture. So in looking over

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Speaker 1: the books that Chris has written, I mean the one

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Speaker 1: that struck me was when he wrote actually quite a

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Speaker 1: while ago in late nineties on cava. Cava the plant

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Speaker 1: medicine that is growing commonly in the South Pacific, and

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Speaker 1: I've been wanting to do an episode about cava and

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Speaker 1: so for a deep dive on cava and how it

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Speaker 1: relates to other plant medicines, I asked Chris tell them

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Speaker 1: to focus on that. So Chris, welcome so much to Psychoactive. Well, thanks, Ethan,

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Speaker 1: It's a great pleasure to be on with you. I've

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Speaker 1: been looking forward to this since you first suggested it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad we're finally making this happen. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I've seen that, you know, you did this can

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Speaker 1: Cava going to you know, one of the South Pacific islands.

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Speaker 1: Is it Vonatua? Is that how you pronounce it? Vona

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Speaker 1: Watu is the name of the country, and it's a

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Speaker 1: group of about a hundred islands stretching north to south

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the Pacific. So if you went

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Speaker 1: to Australia and then you flew by jets a three

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Speaker 1: hours east into the middle of the ocean, you dropped

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Speaker 1: down on Vana Wattu. But yeah, it's in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the South Pacific, and Vana Wattu is where kava

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Speaker 1: first originated. It's spread from as far east as Tahiti

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Speaker 1: in the Society Islands, to all the way west to

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Speaker 1: um you know, Melanesia and people of a more kind

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Speaker 1: of Asian Pacific descent. But kava really is the big

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Speaker 1: psychoactive agent among all of the Pacific islands. So that

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Speaker 1: counts with Fiji and Samoa, maybe Hawaii, what else, Yeah, Tonga,

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Speaker 1: the Marquesses, New Caledonia, you know, sure, all of them. Um.

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Speaker 1: Cava has played an extremely important role in culture, and uh,

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Speaker 1: certainly nowhere more so than Vona Wattu. So when I

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Speaker 1: first decided to take a very deep dive into cava,

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Speaker 1: which I already knew about in nine, I went to

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Speaker 1: Vona Watu and through a series of strange encounters, was

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Speaker 1: told to go to a very very very far out

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Speaker 1: outer island and look for a guy with tattooed legs.

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Speaker 1: And that led to a long friendship and ridiculously amazing adventures,

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Speaker 1: and together with other people, we started the international cova trade.

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Speaker 1: We we actually did that, and uh we were wonderfully

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Speaker 1: successfully in our efforts to popularize cova for a time,

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Speaker 1: and that stimulated um enterprise all over the Pacific Islands.

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Speaker 1: And I got to spend a lot of time in

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Speaker 1: Vonawatu and continue to this day. I was there in

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Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, just a week before all travel stopped

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Speaker 1: due to COVID. So's it's an activity and a connection

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Speaker 1: that I keep up very closely. Well, so let's just

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Speaker 1: get down a basic first. I mean, the first question

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Speaker 1: we have to ask, since I imagine a good part

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Speaker 1: of our audience well not to the answer is what

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Speaker 1: the hell is cava? Well, cava is a bush ethan

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Speaker 1: and um. It is in the pepper family. Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: a piper species, and it's the root and the lateral

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Speaker 1: roots that come off of this large sort of football

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Speaker 1: shaped rootstock that are are taken out of the ground

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Speaker 1: and pounded, cleaned and pounded and made into a very

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Speaker 1: very strong drink that you drink out of coconut shells.

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Speaker 1: You drink it fresh, it's not fermented, it's not alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: and if cabba is properly made, you get a relaxing

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Speaker 1: feeling in seconds. I don't mean minutes, I mean seconds

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Speaker 1: as it's going down your throat, you feel this wave

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Speaker 1: of relaxation. And so cava it goes way way back

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Speaker 1: into antiquity with these different Pacific island communities and they

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Speaker 1: all have traditions around cava. And in Vanuatu, where I

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Speaker 1: have spent, you know, the majority of my time, though

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Speaker 1: I've done a lot of work in Hawaii. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we drink cava in the evening. It's pretty funny actually,

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Speaker 1: because you'll be out, you know, maybe somebody's working on

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Speaker 1: their taro patch or whatever, and somebody will say, hey,

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Speaker 1: what time is it, and somebody else says, it's cava time,

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Speaker 1: and they just stop in mid machette swing and they

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Speaker 1: just walk back to the village. And that starts the

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Speaker 1: reparation of cava, which is very physically demanding and labor intensive.

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Speaker 1: And this is an agent of kinship and community. It

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Speaker 1: brings people together and you sit and talk about your

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Speaker 1: day and you know, hang out for a while and

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Speaker 1: after drinking a few coconut shells of cava, you go

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Speaker 1: off and have dinner. But um, it said, don't miss

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Speaker 1: there's never there's never a day that passes where there's

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Speaker 1: no cava it's central to kinship and community in the Islands.

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Speaker 1: Now meanwhile, of course cava has become a not super popular,

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Speaker 1: but it's spreading in popularity in the U S. In Europe.

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Speaker 1: I was just looking up. There must be a couple

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Speaker 1: hundred cava bars around the country. So it's getting around

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Speaker 1: and why are people using it? Well, it imparts a

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Speaker 1: very specific feeling of relaxation and tranquility, and very quickly,

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Speaker 1: I mean very quickly, just as you know, one good

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Speaker 1: solid hit from a great joint of amazing ganja will

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Speaker 1: get you high momentarily. Um, drinking well made cava, you

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Speaker 1: will feel it almost instantaneously, and people like the sense

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Speaker 1: of tranquility that it promotes. Um, you don't lose neuromuscular coordination,

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Speaker 1: you don't become drunk the way you would on alcohol,

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Speaker 1: you don't lose your sensibilities. If you can remember your

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Speaker 1: friends phone numbers when you haven't drunk cava you can

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Speaker 1: remember and when you have. And um, it's really something

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Speaker 1: that just plane makes people feel good. And I think,

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Speaker 1: especially now considering that so many people are stressed out

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Speaker 1: and anxious, cava is sort of an of our time

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Speaker 1: agent of peace. Really, you know, as one anthropologist said,

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Speaker 1: you know, you cannot hate with cava in you. Uh,

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Speaker 1: It's it's an agent of dispute resolution. Let's say you

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Speaker 1: and I have something going on between us. You know what, ever,

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Speaker 1: you're piste off at me, I'm piste off at you.

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Speaker 1: There's something wrong. We get together, we sit down, we

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Speaker 1: drink cava. We just hang out for a while and

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Speaker 1: do that, and then afterwards we talk it through and

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Speaker 1: when we leave, it's done. It's finished, it's over, it's settled.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I owe you a pig or something, but it's over.

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Speaker 1: And so it's an agent not only of kinshipping community,

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Speaker 1: bringing people together, but it's also very useful for dispute resolution. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, you want to honor a dignitary or a

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Speaker 1: visiting chief, you throw a really wonderful cava celebration, or

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Speaker 1: you bring a big beautiful bundle of cava roots to

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Speaker 1: a wedding, you know, to give to the bride and groom.

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Speaker 1: All of these things show the real central importance of

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Speaker 1: this plant and it's culture. I mean, people love cava

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Speaker 1: and it makes them feel terrific. So the extension of

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Speaker 1: that to cava bars all over the US and Europe.

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Speaker 1: It just makes sense. Although I really do I do

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Speaker 1: prefer the island experience I can. I can imagine you

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Speaker 1: know a lot of what you're saying saying Chris, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like what I read in here and learn about,

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Speaker 1: say coca um in Bolivia and Peru and parts of Colombia,

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Speaker 1: or what one might hear read about, you know, tobacco

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Speaker 1: and more traditional uses in the Americas, or may be

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Speaker 1: caught in uh in Yemen and East Africa. You know,

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Speaker 1: the same thing you hear about coca being given to

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Speaker 1: the pope or the queen or the visiting president or

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Speaker 1: what have you. So in terms of I mean, how

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Speaker 1: would you compare it to those sorts of things in

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Speaker 1: that context? Quite similar? If you have chewed coca leaf,

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Speaker 1: you know this. You can't get high doing that. You

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Speaker 1: can try, you can try with all your might, but

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Speaker 1: you're not going to get high on it. Um. You

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Speaker 1: may feel a little bit more clear minded, you may

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Speaker 1: adjust to altitude better. Um, you know, feel kind of

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Speaker 1: like you had a cup of tea, perhaps, but you're

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Speaker 1: not going to get a different state of mind. If

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Speaker 1: you drink good cava. I mean good cava, I don't

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Speaker 1: mean the dishwater thin stuff that some people prepare from

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Speaker 1: dried cova powder. But if you really drink good cava,

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Speaker 1: you feel it, You feel it significantly, and it lasts

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Speaker 1: for a couple of hours. And uh, it isn't it

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Speaker 1: isn't comparable to coke. I mean, I've chewed coca hundreds

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Speaker 1: of times and drunk the tea many many times, you

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Speaker 1: know in the andies especially, and um certainly have you

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Speaker 1: know been in and out of ceremonies where tobacco is

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Speaker 1: uh widely you know and specifically used, But they don't

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Speaker 1: compare to cava. The effects are just utterly different. And

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Speaker 1: when you first have that cava wave that as it's

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Speaker 1: going down your throat you feel your entire body and

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Speaker 1: nervous system just kind of just spreading out through your

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Speaker 1: entire body, you realize, oh, this is a different thing.

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Speaker 1: It's not like anything. M h. Now, So what was

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Speaker 1: your first encounter with Well, my very first encounter was

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Speaker 1: at a dinner party in nineteen seventy nine in a

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Speaker 1: very elegant neighborhood called Fisher Hill in Brookline, Massachusetts. And

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Speaker 1: I was in this baronial manner that this rich friend

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Speaker 1: had and um, his brother was there, and after dinner,

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Speaker 1: his brother took out this jar and stuck a chopstick

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Speaker 1: in it and pulled out this big black ball of

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Speaker 1: goo about the size of a small marble, and he

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Speaker 1: handed to me and he said, try this. We were herbalist,

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Speaker 1: you know, so we did they like, you know, somebody'd

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Speaker 1: always be pulling an extract out of the pocket, like hey,

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Speaker 1: I just made an amazing you know whatever. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: ginger and be pollen extract, Try this or something. So

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Speaker 1: I said, well, what is this and he said kava

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Speaker 1: And I said, okay, you know what's it going to

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Speaker 1: do to me? And he said, you know, you'll feel it?

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Speaker 1: And so I put this ball of black goo in

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Speaker 1: my mouth and my tongue started to numb and uh.

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Speaker 1: In moments, I was pleasantly and delightfully high. Um. The light,

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Speaker 1: which was low in the dining room where we were sitting,

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Speaker 1: was had more sparkled to it, my hearing was more acute.

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Speaker 1: I had this delightful sense of relaxation and peace. And

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Speaker 1: I said, is this stuff legal? And he said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's legal and um. But it wasn't until nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: five that I actually got to Vona Watu and began,

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Speaker 1: you know, my my real serious path with it. But

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Speaker 1: after that dinner party, I found the entity that had

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Speaker 1: supplied him with that little jar of goo and got

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Speaker 1: some myself and experimented with it over time. But when

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Speaker 1: I finally went to Vona Wattu, I was taken pretty

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Speaker 1: promptly into an Aka mall, which is a place we

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Speaker 1: had drink cava, and I had a couple of shells

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Speaker 1: of cava, and I then I got it was like,

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Speaker 1: oh right, okay, you can go very very deep at

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Speaker 1: this stuff. This is this is not some sort of

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Speaker 1: like little light buzz that you get from a ballago

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Speaker 1: in your mouth. This is this is you know, pretty

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Speaker 1: much as deep as you want to go, frankly, And

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Speaker 1: so that turned me onto cava. And I think that

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Speaker 1: we are certainly in my case, I'm drawn to certain plants.

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Speaker 1: I'm drawn to Oshawa Ganda, I'm drawn to the Ayahuasca plants.

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Speaker 1: I'm drawn to cava, to coffee in a huge way.

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Speaker 1: I've researched coffee all over the world, maka um you know,

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Speaker 1: Rodeola many other plants have really pulled me in in

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Speaker 1: a big way. And cava is certainly very very high

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Speaker 1: on that list. And why did it take so long?

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Speaker 1: I mean, why the fifteen or sixteen years before the

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Speaker 1: first time you tried it and you're going to find

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Speaker 1: a want to? I mean, what would prompted I visit

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Speaker 1: in Well, it was actually hard to uh for me

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Speaker 1: to find out as much about Cava as I wanted to.

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Speaker 1: I only got a little bits of information here and there.

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Speaker 1: And I was not familiar at the time with some

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Speaker 1: of the better botanical libraries where I could have gotten

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Speaker 1: much more. Frankly, I could have gotten good anthropological information

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Speaker 1: on Cava, but I didn't know where to go. And

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Speaker 1: then in ninety I was basically hired by a couple

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Speaker 1: who had purchased a massive botanical extraction facility in New Jersey, gigantic,

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Speaker 1: largest in North America. And they hired me because they

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Speaker 1: wanted to know what to do, uh, And I said,

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Speaker 1: I think you should develop cava And they said, well,

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Speaker 1: what do we need to do to do that? And

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Speaker 1: I said, you send me to the South Pacific and

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Speaker 1: they said, okay, when can a start And I said,

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Speaker 1: like now and they said great. And that began actually

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Speaker 1: a twenty one year engagement in which I have investigated

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Speaker 1: medicinal plants and food crops and spices all over the globe. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it really um threw me into what

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do mostly, which was be an explorer,

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Speaker 1: helped to develop sustainable chains of trade, make a difference

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Speaker 1: with indigenous native people, and in the process have remarkable

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Speaker 1: and extraordinary experiences. I mean, you describe at one point

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Speaker 1: cava as the main religion of the Melanesian people? Is it?

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Speaker 1: In fact? I mean akin to a religion way we

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Speaker 1: think about it, Well, it's not akin to a religion,

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Speaker 1: and that there's no dogma, and there's no central person.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's no oh, follow the teachings of Saint Cava.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's not happening. But what does happen is

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Speaker 1: a type of behavior, a type of listening, a type

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Speaker 1: of consideration that is engendered by drinking cava with others.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've sat in Um a couple of times

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Speaker 1: and these magnificent cava ceremonies with like a whole crowded

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Speaker 1: knock them holl just full of chiefs, you know, and

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Speaker 1: everybody getting called up in turn and drinking this insanely

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Speaker 1: strong cava they called stone cava, which is minced with

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Speaker 1: a coral head, so that you erupture every last cell

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Speaker 1: of this really fibrous cava root, giving every little bit

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Speaker 1: of the relaxing compounds out there and into the water,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's magical. It's just plain magical,

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Speaker 1: a breathtaking li So and then you go out underneath

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Speaker 1: the stars, or you know, in case of my so

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Speaker 1: called home village, staring across the bay at a live

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Speaker 1: volcano that's lighting up the sky purple and orange and gold,

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Speaker 1: and you just stand there and it's breathtaking, and you

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Speaker 1: get a sense of the the absolute tiny nous of

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Speaker 1: us and the absolute gigantic nature of everything else. When

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Speaker 1: it was it that Westerner's first encountered cova, I think

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Speaker 1: Captain Cook was one of the first to encounter it,

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Speaker 1: and he found the habit disgusting and didn't want it

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Speaker 1: to take place on his boat. Um, and that did

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Speaker 1: not endear him to island people, for whom cove is

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Speaker 1: the central, most esteemed artifact in their culture. But in general,

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Speaker 1: I think the fact is that European invaders did not understand,

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Speaker 1: mostly didn't care to understand, and found alarming almost everything

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Speaker 1: about Native people, you know the basics of how they lived,

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Speaker 1: what they did, and didn't seem to know, how they behave,

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Speaker 1: what they ate, how they ate, what they drank, how

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Speaker 1: they drank. I mean it was it was a disgust

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Speaker 1: and a loathing that went out in all directions. And eventually,

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Speaker 1: of course Captain Cook was killed because he was just

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Speaker 1: playing an idiot and he you know, had no consideration

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Speaker 1: for the native people, and he suffered terribly as a result.

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Speaker 1: We'll be talking more after we hear this ad. You

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Speaker 1: describe in the book the role of the missionary showing

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Speaker 1: up in the eighteenth and ninth lad eighteenth and nineteenth centuries,

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Speaker 1: and you know, las Captain Cook's crew take sort of

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Speaker 1: down on the whole Cava tradition and just say a

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Speaker 1: little more about that role of the missionaries. And you

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Speaker 1: know what they did around Cava, well, missionaries as they

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Speaker 1: went through the various Pacific islands, tried their best to

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Speaker 1: get um, you know, native people, to stop being heathens

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Speaker 1: and to become good Christians. And so that meant, of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, learning Christian doctrine and following certain prescribed roles,

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Speaker 1: including of course tithing, you know, giving resources that they

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Speaker 1: didn't have two people they didn't know for purposes. They'd

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Speaker 1: never find out about UM as somehow part of their

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Speaker 1: salvation plan. And it is really a big con job

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Speaker 1: from beginning to end. UM in some cases. In many

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Speaker 1: cases the missions though at the very same time provided

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Speaker 1: education and medicine. It's a very confusing mixture of elements.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you want to seduce people and dissuade

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Speaker 1: them from their tragedi sational path and their traditional knowledge,

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Speaker 1: then you have to offer them something. You can't just

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Speaker 1: sort of walk around with a stick and demand that

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Speaker 1: they changed their ways. And so, you know, they showed

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Speaker 1: up with trinkets and education that is useful for sure,

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Speaker 1: and medicine that is valuable in other things. And UH

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Speaker 1: in the islands to one extent or another greatly depending

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Speaker 1: on the dundun denomination that they represented UM, they either

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Speaker 1: tried outright to ban kava or to somehow modify it.

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Speaker 1: The Catholics were kind of the smartest of all because

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Speaker 1: their approach was sort of like what they did in Mexico,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you know data,

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Speaker 1: the dad's fine, no problem, no problem. But you know,

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Speaker 1: here's how you need to worship and here's what you

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Speaker 1: need to do. And I think with uh kava, certainly

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Speaker 1: in Bonawatu um to the extent, I mean, to the

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Speaker 1: greatest extent, it wound up being a better preserved Cavia

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Speaker 1: culture uh than let's say in Fiji, Samoa, Tongua, Tahiti

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Speaker 1: um and and continued to flourish. There wasn't the same

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Speaker 1: attempt to ban it outright, and any attempts that did

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Speaker 1: start were quickly just eliminated. Um. And So how the

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Speaker 1: Catholic missionaries really got a hold in Vonawatu was by

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Speaker 1: saying yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, drink your cob every evening.

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Speaker 1: Sure that's fine, blah blah blah blah blah, but do

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Speaker 1: this as well. Be good Catholics this way. So lots

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Speaker 1: of different influences, because you know, everybody's got their own

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Speaker 1: idea of what of what religion is, and every Christian

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Speaker 1: missionary has their own idea of what they're actually representing.

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Speaker 1: So it's a largely confused, ham fisted affair out there. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: you make me think, on the one hand, of some

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Speaker 1: of the Catholic missionaries, you know, seeking to ban affect

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Speaker 1: banning co in Latin America and punishing people for coca chewing.

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Speaker 1: And then the other hand, I think about the Protestant

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Speaker 1: missionaries and figures who played a big role in sort

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Speaker 1: of banning the opium control UH monopolies in Philippines and

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Speaker 1: elsewhere to later points. So, you know, and I guess

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Speaker 1: the similar roles played oftenized by some of these missionaries

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Speaker 1: and colonial governments in Africa of Vius of the traditional

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Speaker 1: alcohol use. So it's a fairly global phenomenon. But they

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Speaker 1: actually do ban it, right, I mean in some of

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Speaker 1: these islands, and they punish people for using it. They

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Speaker 1: have in different islands for a time. Yes. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, there's a wonderful photograph of UH Pope John

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Speaker 1: Paul the Second drinking cava and Vona watu um, you know,

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean it. It depends on the denomination,

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Speaker 1: It depends on the missionaries. It depends on how zealous

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Speaker 1: and out of touch with reality they are. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have to be out of touch with reality to

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Speaker 1: go to indigenous native people who have lived a certain

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Speaker 1: way for long, long, long, long time and tell them

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Speaker 1: that they're completely out to lunch in their approach to

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Speaker 1: their very mortal existence. And they ought to be worshiping

355
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Speaker 1: some guy they never met before previous and never heard about,

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Speaker 1: and start giving money to these people who they also

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Speaker 1: never heard never never heard of before, I never heard about. Oh,

358
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Speaker 1: and stop doing all this stuff you love. That's a

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Speaker 1: big Pilda swallow, right, you don't say if that Tahitian

360
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Speaker 1: prince you mentioned earlier, Paya was maybe the most fascinating

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Speaker 1: contemporary character. The most fascinating historical one was who fell

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Speaker 1: you write about named John From? Yeah, John From is

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Speaker 1: a legend. Um, He's a cargo cult messiah. The deal is,

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Speaker 1: you know, cargo ships travel all around the world, right,

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Speaker 1: and they constantly lose cargo, and cargo cults have evolved

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Speaker 1: and developed around found cargo. And John From was supposedly

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Speaker 1: this very tall, dignified, mysterious black man in a white

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Speaker 1: suit who showed up and would demand that they like

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Speaker 1: kill and roasted chicken for him, and just this mysterious

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Speaker 1: character overall, and he promised great riches. And they are

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Speaker 1: actually some people I don't know if there are anymore,

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Speaker 1: but up until certainly the eighties who were waiting around

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Speaker 1: for John From to come back. Um, you know, sometimes

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Speaker 1: what happens is there's a person you know, um, and

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Speaker 1: over time that person becomes a legend, and then that

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Speaker 1: legend becomes a magical person, and then the you know,

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Speaker 1: the who they are, that what they do, the how

378
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: they do it all gets greatly exaggerated, and you've got

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Speaker 1: something like John from I mean, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: we'll ever know the real the earliest possible beginnings of this,

381
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Speaker 1: but yeah, he's a legendary character who brings riches through

382
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Speaker 1: lost cargo. That's so Chris, now to bring this up

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Speaker 1: to basically the latent end of the last century in

384
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Speaker 1: the current century. So when you come back from Vanuata too,

385
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: and you're and you're you know, you're being hired by

386
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: this company that's interested in taking plant medicines and making

387
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: them more widely available, um, you know, for commercial purposes, um,

388
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: and health benefit purposes. UM. So what happens then, I mean,

389
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Speaker 1: I know, there's a period when it starts to spread,

390
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Speaker 1: and then there's a scare over the feared of toxicity

391
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: to people's livers of consuming it. I don't know, in

392
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Speaker 1: great amounts or in combination of the things. And that

393
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 1: seems to just tell us that that general story globally

394
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Speaker 1: as well as your role in it. Well, when I

395
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Speaker 1: came back from Bonawatu in nine, the company that had

396
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 1: hired me, Pure World, promptly started to develop a cava

397
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: extract and within a year as time we had a

398
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: really remarkable, profoundly effective cova extract that could be either

399
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: a liquid or a powder. And um then that jump

400
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: started real imports from von Owatu. And you know, when

401
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: you do something like this, you realize you've got people

402
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: in native villages in far flung islands all over the place.

403
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: Maybe they got boats, maybe they don't. Maybe they're hiking

404
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: from one village to another on foot all the time. Um.

405
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: And and there are many, many hundreds of thousands of

406
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: tons of cova in the ground all over these islands.

407
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: But how do you move some of that um, you know,

408
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: and get all the things you need like phyto sanitary

409
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: certificates you know for shipping and clearance from f d A,

410
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: and you know, all the right import licenses and all

411
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: of that stuff is behind and pretty much every herb

412
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: that exists. You know, if you're bringing Oshwa gande in

413
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: from India or rodeola from China, or you know, cava

414
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: from Bonawat, you have to set up a whole infrastructure.

415
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: So we had to do that. We had to do

416
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: all of that, um, you know, working together with people

417
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: all over the Islands and in the United States and

418
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: shippers and all of that, and um we got a good, good,

419
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: good business going for about ten years. And then, Um,

420
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: the toxicity thing was was very very sad because it

421
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: was complete bullshit from beginning to end, and none of

422
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: it was true. Uh. Really, it's not even a matter

423
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: that people consuming in large amounts or in interactions, whether

424
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: the drugs was There's really nothing to it. You could

425
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: uh not begin to take enough supplementary cava to approach

426
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: at any time what the Natives drink every single night

427
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: of their lives. If it were bad for you, they'd

428
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: all be dead. Um, they'll drink um the equivalent of ten, fifteen,

429
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: twenty times the most you could possibly consume in a

430
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: supplementary manner every single night. Um. No. I mean the

431
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: the story to that is Classic Politics on an ABC

432
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: television special that I helped to land about cava back

433
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: in their early days, right after we'd gotten this huge

434
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: feature in the Wall Street Journal and everybody wanted to

435
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: know about cava. Um. The director of the National Institutes

436
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: of Mental Health, having reviewed several European cava studies on anxiety, said,

437
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: if we have American studies that show these same results,

438
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: will have no choice but to recommend cava. And for

439
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical entities who were selling Ben's oar diaz appeene drugs,

440
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: um you know of all different kinds, an ax er ax, halcyon,

441
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: you know the works. That was the most terrifying thing

442
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: that guy could ever have said. And one week before

443
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: the release of the publication of the Duke University Medical

444
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: Center studies showing that cava quote is proves every bit

445
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: is effective in the treatment of mild to moderate anxiety

446
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: as benzo diazepine class of drugs. One week controlled double

447
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: blind studies basically showing that cava was as good or

448
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: double blind controlled human Yeah, double blind, placebo controlled human

449
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: clinical studies conducted a Duke University Medical Center. Exactly what

450
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: the director of the Institute National Institutes of Mental Health

451
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: had been talking about one week before that came out

452
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, overnight something nobody had ever heard about.

453
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Twenty one cases of talk cava related liver toxicity, and

454
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: it tanked Cava overnight. And what happened from that time

455
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: was that several groups of medical researchers and specialists went

456
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: through that report and discovered that of the twenty one cases,

457
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: twenty of them could be summarily explained away. It was

458
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: people using benzo diazepines and a lot of alcohol and

459
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: then subsequently also taking some cava, and one woman who

460
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: was anomalous that they don't know anything about her previous

461
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: liver history. But basically the job that was intended to

462
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: be done to just blow cava out of the water,

463
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: it worked, and insurance companies wouldn't ensure companies for having

464
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: cava anymore. And you know, there were some class action

465
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: suits and all the usual ambulance chasing and that gravely,

466
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: gravely damaged the cava market and gravely damage the income

467
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: of indigenous people all over the Pacific. And you're talking

468
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: about the period roughly the first decade of the two thousands,

469
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: like two thousand two to two thousand and six, seven eight.

470
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: I mean it was not just in the US, right,

471
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 1: I mean you had I think Germany and Switzerland, the UK, France,

472
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: you know, all banning it for a while, is that right? Right?

473
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: Because of this one study that wasn't a study, correct, Chirse.

474
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: I'll tell you it's reminding me. We did an episode

475
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,239
Speaker 1: a little while back about Cratum creatum or what they

476
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: call in Southeast Asia kreaton, and a very similar thing

477
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: where a study comes out saying fortis or whatever, and

478
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: then when people start digging, it turns out that every

479
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: or virtually every claim is bogus. Uh, you know, knocking

480
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: out some product that seems to have real promise coming

481
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: In both cases, I mean from you know, another part

482
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: of the world, you know, either Southeast Asia and in

483
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: your case South Pacific. You know, it's like it's like

484
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: when the New York Times put out a study went

485
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: forty years ago, you know, front page, the LSD splits

486
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: your chromosomes. And then I think of how many people

487
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: I knew were in the middle of lst trip and

488
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: they started freaking out that their kids were going to

489
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: be born to foreign because there's chromosomes are going to

490
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: be split and turn will be totally bogus. But it's

491
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: those kind of scary stories that get so well publicized. Well,

492
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: in the case of protecting at that time a twenty

493
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: billion dollar pharma sector, the benzo diazepine drugs for anxiety.

494
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: It was a matter of self preservation for whoever, you know,

495
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: whoever was hired to do this. It was a hit job.

496
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I remember very well when it

497
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: was you know, LSD would damage your chromosomes. So let

498
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: me ask you this, why do you think kava did

499
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: not take off until you show it up given the

500
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: beneficial property associated with it. For one thing, cava doesn't

501
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: taste good. Okay, nobody drinks cava and goes, God, that's

502
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: delicious cava, whereas you might have an enchanting cup of

503
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: coffee and just go, wow, this is a beautiful cup

504
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: of coffee. I mean, the different agents you described are very,

505
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: very different, one from another. Coffee is something you can

506
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: have any day unless you're caffeine intolerant. It is fragrant

507
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: and delicious if it's well made. And cava still nobody

508
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: really set up an infrastructure for cava trade until the nineties.

509
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: But in addition to that, it doesn't taste good, you know,

510
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: and the more you drink it, the worse it tastes.

511
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: So you know, like you have a couple of shells

512
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: of cava your first time, you go wow, this is

513
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: great stuff, and I tell you what, by the third

514
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: or fourth night, you're just going gun. I hate the

515
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: smell of this stuff. It really does not enchant you.

516
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: I don't know any Native guys who love the taste

517
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: of cava, none of them. When you think of the

518
00:33:54,040 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: overall properties of something like you think of cannabis, okay um.

519
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: For most people and not for all people, if you

520
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: consume cannabis in some manner, you're going to get this

521
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: delightful or pleasant you for a sense. It's going to

522
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: feed your endocannabinoid system in hundreds of different ways that

523
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: we know are valuable for harmonizing organ systems between each other.

524
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: It's going to do all kinds of intrinsically good things.

525
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: And the fragrance of it, and hopefully the flavor of it,

526
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: if it's cured right, will make it something that you're

527
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: happy to go back to again and again. Um cava,

528
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: you know it's a tougher it's a tougher fight. I

529
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: don't expect cava ever to be huge. I just don't

530
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: think that will happen. And I think that cava's chance

531
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: to play a significant role in UM. The relief of

532
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: mild to moderate anxiety was very, very badly damaged by

533
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: that study. And I do think that cava will continue

534
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: to slowly creep on back somewhat, but I don't think

535
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: we'll ever see the very very high popularity of it

536
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: that we saw initially, and and part of that is

537
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: due to the flavor barrier for sure. So in all

538
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: these cava bars, I mean these a couple of the

539
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: cava bars around the US, and I guess a whole

540
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: bunch around the world. I mean, are people kind of

541
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: holding their nose and like, you know, kind of grimacing

542
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: as they drink this stuff, or are there are flavors

543
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: being added, or are people consuming in ways which remove

544
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: the offensive elements of smell and taste. Well, you can't

545
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: remove the offensive elements of smell and taste. You can

546
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: mask them. You know. You can put cava into say

547
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: a coconut pineapple drink, as some places do, and that

548
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: will make it more tolerable. But yeah, for the most part,

549
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: I mean that the good cava bars like Kanaka Cava

550
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: and Kyle Lua on the Big Island of Hawaii. You know,

551
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: they got a great big cava bowl there and they

552
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: just keep stirring it and stirring it and they fill

553
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: up a coconut shell and you drink it, and yeah,

554
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: it's full on, boy, this isn't delicious kava, that's what

555
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, you know there are people out there

556
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: who will drink Yeagermeister. Now, Yeagermeister is one of the

557
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: most offensive, nasty tasting boozes on the market, Okay, and

558
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: yet you have people who favor it, who gravitate toward it,

559
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: who have Yeagermeister parties, who drink a lot of it

560
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: and go figure or look at red Bull. I mean,

561
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: red Bull is just plain nasty. It's not good tasting

562
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: at all. Uh, they make no pretense of it being

563
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: good tasting. People get a buzz and a lift from it,

564
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: and it doesn't stop them from using well over a

565
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: billion dollars worth a year. So you know, it's an

566
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: odd thing about flavor and all of the organ elleptic

567
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: properties of these things. I mean, tobacco fundamentally tastes just

568
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: horrifyingly bad. And yet because it it does what it

569
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: does in terms of you know, suppressing uh, certain emotional sensitivities,

570
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: it's highly desirable among a lot of people. And you're right,

571
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: it has a major central role in the America's as

572
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: a sacred medicine. Um. You know, in in ayahuasca ceremonies,

573
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: and I've sat in about a hundred thirty five ceremonies

574
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: in the Amazon, there's always tobacco. Always. Usually the shamans

575
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: are smoking mapacho, which is the Amazonian broad leaf tobacco,

576
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: which contains twenty to twenty four times the nicotine of

577
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: the Virginian tobacco that you know gets used to make

578
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: cigarettes here in the US. And um, sometimes they'll do

579
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: what's called the soap lar. They'll they'll sit down in

580
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: front of you and they'll take a mapaco, a cigarette

581
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: made of this Amazonian tobacco, and they'll blow it at

582
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: your face, and they'll blow it on the top of

583
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: your head and down the back of your shirt and

584
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: into the palms of your hands, on the soles of

585
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: your feet. You know, this whole ritualized thing. And I

586
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: have to say Ethan that even though I hate the

587
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: smell of tobacco and I don't want to be around

588
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: people smoking cigarettes with something like a soaplar, I find

589
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: it amazingly enjoyable and very much in keeping with what

590
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: I want to have happened during an ayahuasca ceremony. So

591
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: it's that's interesting to me because I really don't like

592
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: tobacco at all. I've done the tobacco snuffs thing and

593
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: that just made me puke and crap my brains out,

594
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: and I don't want anything more to do with that. Um.

595
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: But people react differently. There's a tobacco preparation called bomble,

596
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: and it's this. You cook the tobacco down until you

597
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: have this black tar and you just put it your

598
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: fing your tip just to touch into the ombile, and

599
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: you put it on your tongue and in pretty short

600
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: order you're very high. And I've done that bombile in

601
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: ceremony and that was pretty pleasant actually. Um. But you know,

602
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: tobacco is extremely toxic, extremely So if you were to

603
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: take a cigar and put it in a glass of

604
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: water and leave it overnight and then in the morning

605
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: drink the glass of water, you'd be dead in about

606
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: half an hour. Let's take a break here and go

607
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: to an ad. So let me just read a paragraph

608
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: from your book The years Ago and see would you

609
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: would you correct any of this or not? But you

610
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: basically say, you know, here's the recap. What we know

611
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: about Calva's pharmacological activity. The nature of the effects that

612
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: cover producers depends on the variety of cava plant being used,

613
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: the age of the plant, and the rage ratio of

614
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: cavalact tones. I guess the key ingredient found in that type,

615
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: the potency of the cova preparation, whether it is consumed

616
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: on a full or empty stomach, the set in the

617
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: setting of the user will all influence the actual effects

618
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: each user will experience. First and foremost, it's a local

619
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: anesthetic with potency similar to that of cocaine and procaine.

620
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: It numbs the tongue and the throat when drunk in

621
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: its traditional form or when taken orally as a liquid extract.

622
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: It's a first rate sedative, producing a state of calm

623
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: and promoting sleep if taken in sufficient quantity. Cobb is

624
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: an excellent analgesic, but its mode of activity as a

625
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: pain reliever has yet to be determined. It's superior to

626
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: aspirin and its analgesic effects, and less potent than morphine.

627
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: Cobb is an excellent muscle relaxing and can make the

628
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: pain of an aching back, a sore neck, or any

629
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: other cramped, sore, injured muscle disappear as an aid in

630
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: the relief of both systitis and go out gonorrhea. Cava

631
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: appears to be beneficial, though the exact mechanism for this

632
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: action is not yet fully understood. Some researchers believe that

633
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: this action is due to kava's anti fungal activity. The

634
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 1: cavalac tones have demonstrated significant anti fungal activity against some

635
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: human pathogens. Unfortunately, appears to have no effect on Candida

636
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: albacin's yeast. I no idea what that is. It also

637
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: possesses anti convulsant properties. Promising studies with epileptic show that

638
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: cova enhances control over grandmall seizures. While colba produces no

639
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: side effects when taken in moderate doses, its abuse can

640
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: immediately lead to health problems. There was one study in

641
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: the late eighties among Aboriginal showing excessive consumption leading to

642
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: deteriorating health. So would you stick by all of that?

643
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: Add to it does take away any of that? Well, no,

644
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: I would stand by that. The only thing I would

645
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 1: add but I do think that I covered that otherwise

646
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: in the book is that you know, in the right set,

647
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: in the right setting, I mean, this is a wonderful thing.

648
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: You know. I taught ethnobotany at the University of Massachusetts

649
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: for fourteen years, and every semester we would have a

650
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 1: class where we would make cava and I had cava

651
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: shipped in, uh from Hawaii. I'd have it shipped in

652
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: fresh and or or I also had some freeze dried

653
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: cava that was not commercially available, and we would go

654
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: out outside. The students in my class and I we

655
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: would sit around and we would make cava and we

656
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: would drink cava, and we would do it as close

657
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: to island style as you could on the grass outside

658
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: of an engineering building on a college campus on a

659
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: sunny day. And the students loved it. They just loved it.

660
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: They loved everything about it, the feeling of it, the

661
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: fact that they were you able to consume this plant

662
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: and feel it right away. They enjoyed it very much.

663
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: Nobody ever had a bad time. Um. You know, some

664
00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: plants just confer more delightful properties than others, and cove

665
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: us one of those. Okay, so, Chris, so, so now

666
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: we've been talking, so our listeners are here, and this

667
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: thing go Wow, this could help with anxiety. It's already

668
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: been demonstrated. It appears to help with sleep right. It

669
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 1: relaxes you, makes you feel kind of tranquil, but your

670
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: mind stays clear. It can be kind of fun. So

671
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: what's your recommendation, and please get as specific as you

672
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: feel comfortable doing so in terms of how and where

673
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 1: people should be getting this, you know what forms should

674
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: be they consuming it in. What are the brands? Are

675
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: the websites that you'd recommend, what are the dosages? What

676
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: can you tell us? Well, okay, I think that two

677
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: companies who are doing cova right out there are both

678
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: making liquid extracts. One is Gaya and one is Herb

679
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: Farm and that's pH A r M. And they're both

680
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: very fine brands. They're both using bonawa to cova. They're

681
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: both doing a good job. If you want to have

682
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: the cava experience that is that wave of relaxation, um,

683
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,959
Speaker 1: you know that that really feeling the cava, then those

684
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: are two good ways to do it because you can try, um,

685
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, as much as you want until you get

686
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: that relaxing feeling. What I would do with something like

687
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: the Guya or the Herb Farm um extracts is take

688
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: a little paper dixie cup, a little one and put

689
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: about an ounce of water in the bottom of it,

690
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: squirt in two full droppers full of the cava extract,

691
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: and drink it on the spot. I mean, bang it

692
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: right back. And the reason you do that is that

693
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: if you don't, the relaxing compounds will stick to the

694
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: bottom of the cup and you won't get the effects.

695
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: So you want to put that in right away and

696
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: just throw it back. You'll have the cava experience. And

697
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: if you do that and then you want more, you

698
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: wait twenty or twenty five minutes. You don't do shots

699
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: or shells of cava back to back. If you have

700
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: the opportunity to go to Vanawa to South Pacific, then

701
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: you can drink real fresh cava and cava bars. But

702
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 1: most people can't do that. So I would say Guya

703
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: and herb Farm are excellent ways to go. And if

704
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: just for anxiety or sleep, same thing, or the capsules effective,

705
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: or there are other forms of consuming it. Yeah, I

706
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: think that Guaya has some cava capsules as well. Basically,

707
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who else does right now. I actually

708
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: haven't looked at that side of things in a little while.

709
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: There are also some concentrated cava pastes out there that

710
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: you can find that will deliver a good, strong cava experience.

711
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: But I think for capsules, yeah, I think you can

712
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: get those through Guya as well. And if you want

713
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: to take it every night for sleeping, what do you

714
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: suggest in Well, you probably would want an encapsulated cova

715
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: just so you don't have to deal with the flavor barrier.

716
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: And um, you know, cova is interesting. It does help

717
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people to sleep better. It doesn't help

718
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: everybody to do so, but it does help a lot

719
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: of people to get a deeper more uh, you know,

720
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: just relaxed rest really really relaxes your muscles in a

721
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: big way. M h. And you know, I did an

722
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 1: episode about micro dosing and a lot of episodes about

723
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote macro dozing. And then in between

724
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: is something you know, I've called mini dozing, but I

725
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: saw you were writing you were calling it. I think

726
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: MENI dozing right, but the middling dose. And so I'm

727
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: just wondering what about with cava um and what about

728
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: if people are trying to treat anxiety. What's your recommendation

729
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: about that. Well, here's what we know. In cava. There's

730
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: a group of compounds called the cava lac tones. And

731
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: if you look at a standardized cava extract, whether it's

732
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: in a capsule or a fluid, it will give the

733
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: caval actone value. Okay. Um All of the human studies

734
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: are done in increments of seventy milligrams of caval act tones.

735
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: So and generally the studies that show the best anti

736
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: anxiety effects are three or four times that per day. Um. So,

737
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: let's say two hundred ten to two hundred eighty milligrams

738
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: of caval act tones a day that is sufficient enough

739
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: to significantly quell mild to moderate anxiety. Won't do anything

740
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: for extreme anxiety, just like we don't have anything for

741
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: extreme depression other than you know, heavy duty tripping under

742
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: supervised conditions. Um. So, that's what I would say. You know,

743
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: you look for an absoluated cava product that, let's say

744
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: per capsule, delivers seventy milligrams of caval actnes per capsule,

745
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: and you do three or four of those a day,

746
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: and that will put you in the clinically verified zone

747
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: for helping to manage mild to moderate anxiety. I see.

748
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: And is it correct to say people do not build

749
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: up tolerance to cava in the way they do to

750
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: some other drugs. Well, I mean I never have, but

751
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I can't be a clinical study of one.

752
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you drink cava in large

753
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 1: quantities every single evening, the way they do in the Islands, um,

754
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: at the very least, you build up a little bit

755
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: of a tolerance. But in terms of people managing mild

756
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: to moderate anxiety, we haven't seen that in any of

757
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: the studies. And what about combining it with alcohol or

758
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: cannabis or CBD or do we know anything about the

759
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: drug interactions. Yeah, I'm not a friend of combining cava

760
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: with alcohol. I think the cava accentuates the alcohol and

761
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: the and the alcohol accentuates the cava in weird ways.

762
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good combination cava and cannabis.

763
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 1: That's these days very common. Um. You know, the cava

764
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: adds extra relaxing dimension to the cannabis, and the cannabis

765
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: gives an extra lift to the cava. That's the way

766
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: I would describe it. And it can only grow in

767
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: this part of the world, or could it grow in

768
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: many other places? Well, cava needs to be in an

769
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: an equatorial tropical environment and it favors very easy to

770
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: drain bulk anne soil um. So for example, in Vanawatu,

771
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 1: where all of those islands are volcanic, every last one

772
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: of them, uh, the soil is really ideal. And you

773
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,479
Speaker 1: have similar things in Samoa and Tonga uh and other

774
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: parts of the Pacific Islands where those islands themselves are

775
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: volcanic and so the soil is right. You know. Uh.

776
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: Kava grown in in Hawaii for example, which I have

777
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: a long involvement with. It's very very good uh and

778
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: that owes to the soil. But you know, if you

779
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: were to try it, like say, to grow it, you

780
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: know you see Davis or something where they have you know,

781
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: phenomenal agricultural geniuses, you couldn't. You just couldn't do it.

782
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: And Vanuatum, how is this business working out for them now?

783
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: Are they making more and more money? I mean, obviously

784
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: COVID you know the first the uh you know, the

785
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 1: liber disease thing, and then COVID you know, we're obviously

786
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 1: major knocks and typhoons as well. But are they doing

787
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: better and better in this area and is it having

788
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: a generally positive impact done people in the islands or

789
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: is it bringing some unwashed Well, look that the steady,

790
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: the steady on slot of multicultural influences from all over

791
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: the world on any place is disorienting for people no

792
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: matter where they are. But I will say that in Vonawatu,

793
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: the wonderful thing that has happened with the cova trade

794
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: is that the cava growers and the cava shippers are

795
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: making far far more money than they ever did, and

796
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,720
Speaker 1: that means that you know, more of them can afford boats.

797
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 1: The kids are dressed better, They have things they need,

798
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: like you know, cooking pots and washing basins and stuff

799
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 1: that we take completely for granted, and newer bush knives

800
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. And it has really, uh frankly

801
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: transformed their lives in very positive ways, you know, from

802
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: an access to goods and services ways. Uh, they're doing

803
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: better now, and you know it's it's in that sense,

804
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: it's what my friends and I hoped for in the beginning.

805
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: You know, wouldn't it be great if these people could have,

806
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, take this tradition of theirs, uh, you know,

807
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: and earn a living and be less at the mercy

808
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: of forces all around them because they have some economic

809
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: stability and power, and thankfully that's exactly what has happened.

810
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: You know, not everybody in Vona Watu or in the

811
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: Pacific Islands is in the cava trade, so not everybody

812
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: um is equally benefiting from that. But that's true all

813
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: over the world, no matter what trade you're talking about.

814
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: So in the case of h Vona Watu cava, it's

815
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 1: been a big success. And you're right that COVID and

816
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: other things over time have harmed it, but the overall

817
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 1: condition of the trade and of the growers and of

818
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: the cava bars and all of that, it's gone way

819
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: way up in very gratifying ways. And there's not un

820
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: any problems of over harvesting or endangering access the ability

821
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,959
Speaker 1: of locals to get quality cova. There's the market would

822
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: have to grow much more substantially before that was a concern.

823
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: There is so much cava in the ground it's unimaginable,

824
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, we're we're really talking many hundreds

825
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: of thousands of tons um. You know that, because what

826
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: happens ethan you pull a cava bush, okay, and so

827
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: you're after the route and the lateral roots, but you

828
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: pull up this bush and it has maybe thirty five stocks,

829
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: not one thirty five, and you cut each stock at

830
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: an angle and you stab it into the ground, and

831
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: that grows a cova plant. So at a certain point

832
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: you can't even grow anymore, you know, because over hill

833
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: and dale, as far as you can see, under every tree,

834
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: and further and further and further and further, it's cava.

835
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: So at this point in time, there is no concern

836
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: about it being endangered, no concern about it being over harvested. Uh,

837
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: no concern at all about any of that. So your

838
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: prediction is that this is going to be a slow

839
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: growth in the US and around the rest of the world.

840
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: There's more and more people appreciate it, but ultimately inherently

841
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: limited because of the smell and taste issues. Well, yeah,

842
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: I think so. But also think about it this way.

843
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: I mean, let's say that we have all kinds of

844
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: foods in our kitchen, right, you know, we have things

845
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: that we eat every day, we have things on occasion,

846
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: we have things that we eat every once in a while. Um,

847
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: all of these plants, whether you're talking creatum, whether you're

848
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 1: talking Salvia divinorum, whether you're talking cava, they're all part

849
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: of this vast buffet of psychoactive plants, and some are

850
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: just naturally more appealing to people than others and something

851
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 1: that they want to turn to more often than they

852
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: do with others. That's just the way it is with plants,

853
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: with different items of clothing, with foods, with music, it's

854
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 1: no different. Um Cava, you know, it will never be

855
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: as big as alcohol. Cava will probably hold its sort

856
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: of moderate place in society, and maybe we'll see the

857
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: European bands eventually go away because they're fool harded, eat

858
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: fool hardy and based on non reality. Um but I

859
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be huge huge. I think

860
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: it's just part of the psychoactive buffet. Just as you know.

861
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: I used to direct my students in class to go

862
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: to this particular place that made hot chocolate, and I

863
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: would say to them, I don't care what hot chocolate

864
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: you've had in life, I don't care where you've been.

865
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,919
Speaker 1: Go to this place, drink a cup of it, come

866
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: back and tell us about it. And they would all

867
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: come back and go, WHOA man. I was high for

868
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: hours on that, and this place just had a particular

869
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: way of doing it so that it was as concentrated

870
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: a coco elevating experiences you could possibly have, um, you know,

871
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: and that's something that people will go back to taste good,

872
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: really amazing, love the effect, you know, all of that.

873
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: People are going to reach for that more than they're

874
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 1: going to reach for cava for sure. So Chris, just

875
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: to finish up here, I mean, you've spent many decades

876
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: being a quote unquote medicine hunter, traveling the world, you know, finding, discovering, uh,

877
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: you know, figuring out whether these things could be brought

878
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: to broader markets. So what are the other ones in

879
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: your decades of travel and investigation that you're most excited

880
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: about and why? And I really you could go on

881
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: for hours about this, but if you had to give

882
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: me the highlights, what would you say? I would say

883
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 1: that my involvement with Maka, which is a highly nutritious,

884
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: stamina promoting route in the Andes, which I started working

885
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: on in ninety eight. Um, that's been a very big,

886
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: deep involvement that I have loved tremendously. And the kava

887
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: market didn't exist before my friends and I got involved,

888
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: and now cove is everywhere around the world. I mean, Marca,

889
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: excuse me, Um, Rodeo la Rosa, which I've investigated in

890
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: the central south of Siberia and the Shinjong region of China,

891
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: is just remarkable for its overall health and vitality promoting properties.

892
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: And I've worked with that extensively for years, and that's

893
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,479
Speaker 1: an involvement. I'm very proud of um Oshawa Ganda, which

894
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: is also a vitality enhancing route from India and a

895
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: key part of the ira Vedic tradition over there. I

896
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: work with that to this day. I work with commit

897
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: commercial entities with Ashwaganda to this day, and and and

898
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: other things like coffee, which I've investigated around the world,

899
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: coco or that is cacao, the source of chocolate um

900
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: and you know Amazonian plants. I mean, I've gone very

901
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: very far and deep with the ingredients of ayahuasca, so

902
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: both the vine that's used to make it and also

903
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: the leaf and my Peruvian team and I did the

904
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: only real legitimate survey on ayahuasca that's ever been done.

905
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: Took us two years to do it. These have been

906
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: some of the major plants. But you know, I've been

907
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: fortunate to research rosemary and time and hawthorne and olive

908
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: leaf in Morocco, and um, you know, work all over

909
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: Africa and the Middle East. You know, in Malaysia, I've

910
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 1: worked with tonkat Ali, which is a humongous plant over

911
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: there that almost nobody over here even knows. And many

912
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: Thai plants in Thailand. Um, you know, the plants call

913
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: to me and I get to go work with them,

914
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: and sometimes I get to make a real and profound

915
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: difference in the livelihoods and the and the fortunes of

916
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: other people. And I love that. That's you know, that's

917
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: the greatest reward reward I could possibly ask for. Well, Chris,

918
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: on that note, I mean, god, I've loved this conversation

919
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: with I've learned a hell of a lot, and I

920
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,439
Speaker 1: think our listeners must have as well. So listen, thank

921
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: you ever so much for joining me and my listeners

922
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: on Psychoactive. Well, thank you Ethan Yet you ask great

923
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: questions and I've enjoyed the time immensely. I'm glad we

924
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: finally connected after sort of kind of like you know,

925
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: rubbing or us at different conferences over time. It was

926
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: nice to make a more of a real connection in

927
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: New York, and I wish you continued success with this

928
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: and to all of your listeners. Thanks for tuning in. Okay,

929
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: thank you very much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell

930
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: your friends about it, or you can write us a

931
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

932
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like

933
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave

934
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven

935
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you

936
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or

937
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You can

938
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is

939
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's

940
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noam Osband

941
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel,

942
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoma Pictures, Alex Williams

943
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman.

944
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks

945
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep.

946
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with Dr Gabor Matte, the

947
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: Hungarian Canadian physician from Vancouver who's influenced millions of people

948
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: with his writing about addiction, trauma, pain, and the power

949
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: of healing. I've always argued that addictions are rooted in trauma,

950
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: and the reason the book is subtitled traum Ileus and

951
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: Healing in a Toxic Culture is because the very conditions

952
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 1: of life in modern day global it's corporate capitalist society

953
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 1: actually traumatized people. Um they hurt people, they wound people,

954
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: and that diseases of mind and body in this environment

955
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: are not abnormal, they're normal responses to what is an

956
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: abnormal culture. Subscribe to Psycoactive now see it, don't miss it.