1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: Hey, Jorgey, what's the first particle discovery that you remember? Well, 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: I've never discovered a particle yet. You don't have to 3 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: have discovered it yourself though, to remember it. I mean, 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: these are cultural moments. Don't you remember where you were 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: and what you were wearing when the Higgs boson was discovered? 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Hopefully I was wearing clothes, And I like how you 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: equate physics with culture. I'm sure there is culture within physics, 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: but no, I was probably wearing pajamas. I'm guessing where 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: were you. I was there at certain helping to discover 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: the Higgs bo though. Oh yeah, you were pressing the button. 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: They were trying to keep me from pressing the button 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: too many times. Yeah. Well, well, what's the first particle 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: discovery you remember? Well? I remember way back in when 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: the top cork was discovered. Did you push the button then? No? 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm not that old. I was just in college. But 16 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: I remember one of my physics professors coming into class 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: that morning and announcing it like this was a really 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: big deal. O nice, And do you remember what you 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: were wearing? You know, it was college, so I was 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: probably also in my pajamas. I am or Ham cartoonists 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: and the creator of PhD Comics. I'm Daniel. I'm a 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: particle physicist, and I don't usually do physics in my pajamas. 23 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: What are you doing your pajamas? Then I make podcasts. 24 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: You stay sleeping or cooking breakfast, staying up late having 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: deep thoughts about the universe. And that's why we're here 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: to plant little ideas for you to stay up late 27 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: thinking about about the universe. In our podcast, Daniel and 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: Jorge Explained the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio. 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: That's right, our podcast in which we take you a 30 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: tour of all the incredible discoveries that science has made 31 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: and all the questions that science has not yet answered. Yeah, 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: we like to talk about all the things we know 33 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: and all the things we don't know or haven't discovered. 34 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: There is a lot we haven't discovered out there, right. 35 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes science gives the impression, or people 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: give science the impression that it's discovered everything already, that 37 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: there's nothing left to find in the universe. That's right, 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: And in contract to that, we think that there's a 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: huge amount of exploration left to do. That most of 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: the deep secrets about the universe remain out there for 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: us to be found. But science is not a process 42 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: where you just sort of sit at home and have 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: ideas float into your head. It's a slow chipping away. 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: It's a moments of discovery and long stretches without any insight. 45 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: And we also like to tell you about how that happens. 46 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: How do scientists actually figure stuff out? Yeah, long stretches 47 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: of sitting around in your piamas drinking coffee is how 48 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: I imagine physics gets done. Well, you know, it's research, 49 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: which means it's exploration. And when you go out to 50 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: find something new, you never know if you're going to 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: stumble on a vein of rich gold or if you're 52 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: just going to be digging through rubble for decades. That's 53 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 1: sort of the excitement of it, right, It's unexpected. Yeah. 54 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: I always imagine mcgillan and Lewis and Clark, you know, 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 1: sitting around in their pajamas drinking coffee as well, so 56 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: something they all haven't in common. I'm sure they had 57 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: coffee on those ships. Come on, I'm sure nobody made 58 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: it through one of those tours without drinking. Saying discovery 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: needs caffeine, I'm saying caffeine is now more widespread and 60 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: the rate of discoveries is increasing, So therefore, dot dot dot, 61 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: Therefore we should all drink more coffee. We should fund 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: coffee research, is what I'm saying. But yeah, we like 63 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: to talk about not just the signs that's out there 64 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: for people to know about, but also how the science 65 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: was discovered, because sometimes it is sort of the slow 66 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: process and a little bit like chipping away at a rock. 67 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: But sometimes these discoveries are pretty interesting and full of 68 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: drama and intrigue. That's right, because these are real people's 69 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: lives and their careers. The figures you hear about in history, 70 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: they were real people. They had struggles, they went to 71 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: the bathroom, they slept in, they had arguments, they made mistakes, 72 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: and I think it's fascinating to get in the minds 73 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: of those people and understand what it was like to 74 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: be them before we understood the universe, before they had 75 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: these insights, before they revealed new deep truths about the universe, 76 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: because that helps us understand how to go forward and 77 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: what it's gonna be like to reveal the next deep 78 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: truth about the universe. So to be on the podcast, 79 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: we have a really pretty interesting discovery to talk about. 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: You're telling me full of leaks and lies and false 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: discoveries and wasted millions. I feel like almost it should 82 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: be an episode of Horrible Histories, that's right, or science telenovelas. 83 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: There is a lot of drama, and it's fun because 84 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: we've been doing this series about how particles were discovering, 85 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: and we started way back in the late eighteen hundreds 86 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: with the discovery of the electron. But you know, that's 87 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: sort of like shrouded in history. Who really was J? J. Thompson? 88 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: What was it like to be a particle physicist back 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: in the dawn of science? But now how we're coming 90 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: up to the present moment. We're back into the most 91 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: recent few decades, and so these are real people. These 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: people are still alive. I was around when this was happening, 93 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: and so it's fun to bring people up to the 94 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: present and to talk about recent dramatic discovery. Yeah. I 95 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: mean this, this particle we're gonna talk about today was 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: around when Friends was on the air and Seinfeld, which 97 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: which to me sounds like yesterday. But I'm sure for 98 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: younger readers it's like, what that's ancient history. I've read 99 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: about that in text books. Yeah, so today on the program, 100 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about how is the top cork discovered, 101 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: not Daniel, Is this the top cork, like the best 102 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: cork that we save the best for for last year, 103 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: or is this just sort of like um, the one 104 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: that always put on top. Well, you know, this cork 105 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: has had multiple names, and you will be not impressed 106 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: to discover that particle physicists have not agreed on how 107 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: to name this particle. Really, sometimes you went through several 108 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: versions and this what you landed on the top. They 109 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: were competing schools. I thought the top cork is the 110 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: partner of the bottom cork. These corks come in pairs, 111 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: and for a while people thought that the pairs should 112 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: be called top and bottom, and there was another group 113 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: that thought we should call them truth and beauty Corkshodness. 114 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: They're like, no, this one's more confusing. No, we like 115 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: this one. It's more confusing. I know that we keep 116 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: doing this. We'd keep adapting words from English that means 117 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: something totally different and then applying them to particle physics 118 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: and just like giving it a new meeting like that 119 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't be confusing. You know, It's like let's call this 120 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: one the banana cork, and that when the peach cork, Like, 121 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's some physicist s somewhere right now taking notes. 122 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: It's like, well, that's a good one, and I teach 123 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: somebody's working on like the tech script for a miniature banana, 124 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, so you can work that into your equation 125 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: that I thought you were going to say that the 126 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: people arguing about which one should beat the top and 127 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: which one should be the bottom. No, we already know 128 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: that because of their charges. These corks have really weird 129 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: electric charges one third and minus two thirds. And so 130 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: the ones on the top a row, the up, the charm, 131 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: and the top these three quarks all have the same 132 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: electric charge, and the other ones that down, the strange 133 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: and the bottom all have the same charge on these 134 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: two thirds, and so we know where they sit. And 135 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: so top and bottom are just part of that pair. 136 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: And top isn't top because it's like the best quirk. 137 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: It's just the name that we gave. It's the name 138 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: of that British show Top Top Engine, or am I 139 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: thinking of Top Model? What am I thinking of? Is 140 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: there a reality show for particles? America's next Top Particle 141 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: the universe is next top particle. Man. I wish I 142 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: could get auditions from brand new particles. I mean, we 143 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: have to try to smash particles together at certain just 144 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: to get hints of what new particles might be out there. 145 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: And we could just like sit back and have the 146 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: particles parade themselves in front of us. Wow, that would 147 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: be Then I could really just sip coffee and wear 148 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: pajamas and just make big discovery. We think, after all 149 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: the fanfare about the Higgs boson, you know, the particles 150 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: would be lining up, you would all want to start, 151 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: and there is a giant media place. Yeah, the particles 152 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: should really talk to their agents about cashing in on that. 153 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: How to monetize yourself as a particle. Well, but anyways, 154 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,559 Speaker 1: this particle is pretty important. It's pretty interesting, the top Cork, 155 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: and it also has a pretty interesting and illustrious and 156 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: kind of funny history. And so, as usually, we were 157 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: wondering how many people out there had heard of the 158 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: top Cork, and more importantly, how it was discovered. So 159 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: I asked people to volunteer to answer random questions on 160 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: the Internet, and I didn't tell them what I'd be 161 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: asking in advance, and the rules were no googling. So 162 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: here are the answers from a bunch of brave listeners 163 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: willing to answer my question. So take a moment before 164 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: listening to these. If someone asked you if they if 165 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: you knew what the top cork is and how it 166 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: was discovered, what would you say? Here's what people had 167 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: to say. I really don't know how the top corp 168 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: was discovered. If I had to guess, Like with most things, 169 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: it had to do with smashing particles together. But I 170 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: really don't know, absolutely no idea. Did you tell me 171 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 1: how was the top court discovered? I don't know, absolutely 172 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: no idea. Um which probably was the law school to 173 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: we discovered hance the name top well, I don't know 174 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: how it was discovered or when. I would assume eighties maybe, 175 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: but I don't know how. I have no idea. I 176 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: would guess through some experiment at the LHC or certain 177 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm not true. I have no idea how 178 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: that was discovered, but I'm sure that it was discovered 179 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: by a scientist way smarter than me at the LHC. 180 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: I think probably in a particle accelerator. I'm going to 181 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: guess inside a particle accelerator. Interesting question. I hope that 182 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: this will be actually something that I will learn in 183 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: one of your next episodes. I'm going to say the 184 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: top quark was discovered from Quark's Got Talent competition show. 185 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: I have no idea, but being such a specific small particle, 186 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: I could suppose it was discovered using a particle accelerator. 187 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: But I think the top quark was discovered in the 188 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: an annoint he's after kill Man written his UM to 189 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: Cheg you're in the Quark book, um. But I don't 190 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: know how the top quark was specifically discovered. Maybe there's 191 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: another amusing anecdote guarantee, however, you all so, I would 192 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: guess either it was discovered in an accelerator or it 193 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: was found in atmosphere as other particles. But I'm not rush, 194 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: all right. Not a lot of name recognition here on 195 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: the top cork. No, it's not definitely, definitely not on 196 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: the top of people's mind. But somebody else had the 197 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: same idea that maybe he was discovered on a reality 198 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: show corks Got Talent. I like that job, but yeah, no, 199 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: and not a lot of people know what the top 200 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: cork is, and so maybe Daniel that's how we should start. 201 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the top cork. Well 202 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: why is it interesting? Well, the top cork is especially 203 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: fascinating because it's different from the other corks. So remember, 204 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, matter is made out of electrons which orbit 205 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: the nucleus, and then the protons and neutron inside the atom, 206 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: and those protons and neutrons are made up of corks, 207 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: of corks and down corks specifically. So the up corks 208 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: and down corks are the ones that like make up 209 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: me and you, and lava and ice cream, all the 210 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: stars in the universe and all that stuff. But there 211 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: are heavier corks out there. If you collide particles together 212 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: really high energy, you can make these other corks, which 213 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: are heavier, they have more mass to them. They don't 214 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: last very long. They'd like to dec back down to 215 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: the lighter stable corks. But you can make the charm 216 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: and the strange corks. And we had a whole episode 217 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: about strange matter that has strange corks in it, And 218 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: if you pump even more energy into it, you can 219 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: make the bottom cork and then the top cork. And 220 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: the top cork is weird because it's so much heavier 221 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: than all of the other ones, like the light corks up, 222 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: the down, the strange, all these way about as much 223 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: as a proton or less. But the top cork is 224 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: like a hundred and seventy five times heavier than a 225 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: single proton, and so yeah, and and a proton is 226 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: filled with other quarks, so it's it's like many times 227 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: heavier than a regular many many times heavier. And that's 228 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: what was so surprising about it. That's why it took 229 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: so long to find, because it was shockingly massive. Even 230 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: to this day, we do not understand why the top 231 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: cork is so darn heavy. We think it's probably a clue, 232 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: a window into something else that's happening in physics, some 233 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: special role it might play in mass or in generating matter, 234 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: but we really don't understand. Well, you would think that 235 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: the heavier it is, the easier it is to find. 236 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: That's usually kind of the rule. But I guess maybe 237 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: my question is, you know, because because wait, because you're 238 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: imagining that we're like chasing these things on the savannah 239 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: or something, and if it's heavy, it's like finding the 240 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: elephant in the room. I guess maybe maybe that's a 241 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: bad analogy because offense in the rumor had to see 242 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: have you ever caught an elephant? It's not that easy. Yeah, 243 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of personal experience. I guess no, 244 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: it's actually the opposite. It's because if it's really massive, 245 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: then it takes a lot of energy just to make it. 246 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: So it's harder to make these particles because you have 247 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: to concentrate more energy into a really small space. So 248 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: it takes more technology and frankly more money just to 249 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: build a bigger accelerator to make these things. Oh, I see, 250 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: because you guys don't, I guess you don't discover these 251 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: in the sense that you find them. It's not like 252 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: you're mixing chemicals in the lab and it's like, oh, 253 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: there is. It's like you have to make them to 254 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: discover them. That's right. You have to make them. You 255 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: have to create the environment in which they can exist, 256 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: because if you just look around you, everything in the 257 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: universe is sort of too cold to make any quirks 258 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: except for the up corks and the down corks. Those 259 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: are the stable ones that can't go lower into any 260 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: lighter corks because there's nothing below them on the ladder. 261 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: So to make anything above it on the ladder. You 262 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: have to create special conditions. So, yeah, we're making these things. 263 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: And you know, that's what happened sort of in the 264 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties that we first created the tools, the accelerators 265 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: that we could use to create these conditions to make 266 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: heavier corks. And we talked about in the podcast when 267 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: we talked about how the charm cork was discovered. Than 268 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: the fifties, we found all this crazy new slew of 269 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: particles and when we've slowly understood that these were just 270 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: different combinations of a few light corks, the up down 271 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: in the strange, all put together in different ways like 272 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: lego bass. Yeah, and I like how you talk about 273 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: creating the conditions because it's literally like you need to 274 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: create pure energy, Like you have to put it enough 275 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: energy in one place that all these particles can come 276 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: out of that kind of ball of pure energy. Yeah, 277 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: And it's an amazing way to do exploration. It's not 278 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: like we go out and find these particles. We just 279 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: create the energy and there's some quantum mechanical sort of 280 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: almost magic that happens there because if you create the energy, 281 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: the nature turns that energy back into mass because energy 282 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: just like that is unstable. Nature likes to convert it 283 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: into particles, and it can convert it into any of 284 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: the particles on its menu, which means you don't need 285 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: to know what's on nature's menu. In order to find 286 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: something new. You just have to create enough energy, and 287 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: then Nature will roll a die and say, Okay, this 288 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: time that energy is turning into bottom corks. This time 289 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: that energy is turning into charm corks. And as long 290 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: as you're above sort of the energy cost of making 291 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: that particle, then it can be discovered. You do it 292 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: often enough, you will see it, which is why we 293 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: can go out and explore the fundamental nature of the 294 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: universe just by staying in our pajamas and running our 295 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: particle accelerators here at home. You sit back and roll 296 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: the die over and over twenty thousand times a second. Yeah, 297 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: much more than that. We run this forty million times 298 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: a second because we want to see rare things. Heavy 299 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: things are rare, and so the more times you're all 300 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: to die, the more likely you are to see something 301 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: weird and new. It's a lot of pajamas. I guess 302 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: my question is you know that you found this, You 303 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: found this particle. You decided to call it a top cork. 304 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: But you know, how did you know it was a cork? 305 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: Like what makes a cork a cork? And what? How 306 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: did you know that this one was like the other 307 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: corks that you found. Yeah, well, we sort of looked 308 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: for it because there was a hole in our ideas. 309 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: We had found five corks so far, the up, the down, 310 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: the charmed strange, and then the bottom. And that was 311 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven that Leon Letterman found the bottom cork, 312 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: and there was sort of like a hole there for 313 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: the corks you could pair off together up and down, charming, strange, 314 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: and then like I guess, pair it up in what way? 315 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: Like they're the same but with a different charge, And 316 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: then that's that's how you pair two of them together. Yeah, 317 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: the up and the downer in the first generation, they're 318 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: the lightest ones, so you sort of sort them by mass. 319 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: The charm and the stranger are heavier, but they have 320 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: the same charges as they up and the down there 321 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: like the second generation we call them, and then alone 322 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: in this third generation of corks was the bottom cork, 323 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: and we were like, well, where is its partner? Shouldn't 324 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: it have a partner? We're always looking for patterns and 325 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: particle physics, we're always looking for trends to help us 326 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: understand what's coming next. And then on the other hand, 327 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: we had six kinds of leptons, right the electrons, the 328 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: particles that whizz around the atom. There are also six 329 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: kinds of those particles. So we thought, well, if there's 330 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: six leptons which formed nicely into three pairs, and then 331 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: there are five corks, that's were and they formed two 332 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: and a half pairs. It's just very suggestive, like if 333 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: you write this periodic table of particles on paper, there's 334 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: a hole there, and you say, well, is there a 335 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: particle that feels in that hole? Let's go look for it. 336 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: So we sort of knew what to look for before 337 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: we found We thought it probably did exist, and we 338 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: went looking for it. I feel like maybe you set 339 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: yourself up. You're like, we'll call this fifth one the 340 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: bottom cor Again, who knows if there's a sixth one, 341 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: but wink wink, it's probably the top called the top corn. Well, yeah, 342 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of discoveries and particle physics work this 343 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: way that we see a pattern in our data and 344 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: then we think, you know, this would make a lot 345 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: more sense if there was one more particle. That's the 346 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: way it happened with the Higgs boson, right. The theorists 347 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: they saw this pattern in the data and they thought 348 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: the universe would make more sense. Maybe you had one 349 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: more piece, because it would all click together. And that's 350 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: really powerful. That tells you that, like, wow, you've understood 351 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: something deep in the universe. If you can call the 352 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: next discovery, if you can say I see a trend 353 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: and it means this is gonna be the next thing 354 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: we can find. All right, let's get into how it 355 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: was discovered, and let's see if the drama involved here 356 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: can top the history of the other particles. But first 357 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. All right, we're talking about 358 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: the discovery of the top cork, and Daniel, you were 359 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: telling me that this could very well be an episode 360 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: of horrible histories in physics, because it's full of drama 361 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: and intrigue and a lot of twist and turns in 362 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: this story. So maybe step us through and set it up. First, 363 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: of how you would look for a particle. So the 364 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: way to find new particles is really just to spend money, 365 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: like you need to create the conditions where the particle 366 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: can exist. The more energy you put into this tiny 367 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: little collision, the more likely you are to find a big, heavy, 368 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: fat particle. And the way to do that it's just 369 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: to spend more money to build a bigger accelerator. So 370 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: there's nothing limiting us from building accelerators like this size 371 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: the Solar system to discover crazy new massive particles other 372 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: than money, Like it would cost a good jillion dollars. 373 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: And back in the day before we discovered the top cork, 374 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: before we knew it was so crazy heavy, nobody ever 375 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: imagined it would be so massive. Nobody ever thought it 376 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: would take so much time and money and such a 377 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: big accelerator to discover. So they were sort of thinking smaller, right, 378 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: because the other courts they were all sort of in 379 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: the same range. Yeah, they're all in the same range. 380 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: Like the heaviest one we had ever found was the 381 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: bottom cork, which is five g ev, about five times 382 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: the mass of the proton. So the theorists got to 383 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: work and they said, well, we're very sure the top 384 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: cork exists, and we're also very sure that its mass 385 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: must be around ten or fifteen g ev. They had 386 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: like very convincing arguments. They were so sure that it 387 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: was right around that range, you know, and theorists they 388 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: can come because they were they were just connecting the 389 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: thoughts kind of like the lightest course started about one 390 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: GeV and then the next bigger one is about one 391 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: point six and the next one is five, and so 392 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: they kind of extrapolated like it's probably about ten. Yeah, 393 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: but you know, they made their arguments sound very confident, 394 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: like you when you go to a funding agency and 395 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: you're like, look, I want a hundred million dollars to 396 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: build this collider. You want that funding agency to think 397 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: we're going to find it, like we're right about where 398 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: this is. Because if you build it and your accelerators 399 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: not big enough, then you just find nothing. Right, You've 400 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: explored a little bit of territory and found nothing. That's 401 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: very disappointing. So you want to make your accelerator big 402 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: enough that you're sure you're gonna find this thing, but 403 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: not too big because then you're wasting money, right, So 404 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: it's a balancing act. So they were very confident we 405 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: were going to find this thing if it was like 406 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: ten or fifteen g V and this So take us back, 407 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: what year was the first I guess project that tried 408 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: to find this top cor So the bottom cork was 409 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: found in seventies seven, and so in the late seventies 410 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: and early eighties people thought, well, this must be right 411 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: around the corner because the charm cork was in seventy three. 412 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: So we were like finding a new particle every few years. 413 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: People were like getting to a rhythm of it, right, 414 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: and so they thought, you know, in the early eighties, 415 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: it's like Avengers sequels every three years, that's right. And 416 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: so in the early eighties they looked for it in 417 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: Hamburg at this accelerator called Daisy, and they looked for 418 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: it up to about twenty five g e v. And 419 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: it was very surprising that they didn't see it. I 420 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: mean they were surprised that they didn't see They were like, what, 421 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: we thought it was going to be maybe up to fifteen, 422 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: and we looked all the way up to twenty five 423 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: and it's not there. That's crazy. So that was the 424 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: early eighties, and of course the theory community that had 425 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: very confidently said it must be around ten or fifteen, 426 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: they said, oh, wait, hold on a second, we have 427 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: a new calculation. Now we're very sure it's around thirty, 428 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: what's the what's the latest number, what's the biggest number 429 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: that you haven't found anything? Twenty five? Well, then I 430 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: think it's a thirty exactly, exactly. And that's the game 431 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: of theoretical physics. They're always predicting things to be just 432 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: around the corner, and they're very confident in their predictions 433 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: every time, you know, and you're thinking like, well, why 434 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: why this factor of two and not a factor of three, 435 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: They're like, you know, two is a more natural number. 436 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: It's a more natural number for us to get funding. Yeah, 437 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: all the other numbers don't work out. And so then 438 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: the Japanese built a collider and they were going to 439 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: be able to see it up to around thirty g 440 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: V and so, you know, they spent a lot of 441 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: money on this thing. It's called Tristan, and it ran 442 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: for about ten years and it didn't find anything. We're 443 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: talking about like hundreds of millions of dollars, right, yes, 444 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of time and a lot of people's work. 445 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: And they were very certain, like they thought they were 446 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: buying a discovery. You know, the Japanese government thought, we 447 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: are going to discover the top corker. It's gonna secure 448 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: our place in the history of particle physics. But they 449 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: came up empty and they didn't find it, and so then, 450 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: of course, you know, the theory community is like, oh, 451 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: you know what, it turns out it's gonna be around 452 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: forty g e v. And so this game continued for 453 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: a little while. At Stanford they looked for it. They 454 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: could see it up to about forty five g v. 455 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: And the reason these accelerators had different cut capabilities was 456 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: just because they had different amounts of power. They had 457 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: more money to build them longer, to push the particles faster, 458 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: to make more energy in these collisions, and so Slack 459 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: was able to slack. That's the accelerator at Stanford was 460 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: able to push it up to about forty five GV. 461 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: I like how the name the acronym just says slack. 462 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: It's like, a are they slackers? They did they voluntarily picked. 463 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. Everybody I know who went to Stanford 464 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: is a bit of a slacker in a good way, right, 465 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: in the best possible But I guess my question is 466 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: what does it mean to not find something? It's like, 467 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: you run the machine and you get all these bazilion collisions, 468 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: and you get all this stuff coming out, and then 469 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: you don't see what you thought you were going to see, 470 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: or you or you don't find anything. Yeah, you don't 471 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: see what you thought you were going to see. Like, 472 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: if the top works exists, then we already understand how 473 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: it should be made and how it should decay, so 474 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: we know how to look for it. Now there are 475 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: other things that could also look like that. Remember we 476 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: don't actually create the particle and then get to look 477 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: at it. It lasts for like ten to the mind 478 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: is twenty three seconds, and it turns into other particles, 479 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: which turned other particles, and then they make these splashes 480 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: and our detector. But we're pretty good these days of 481 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: figuring out like, okay, given this splash and the detector, 482 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: it looked probably like it was a time, but you 483 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: can never know for sure. You can't say that this 484 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: event was a Higgs boson, this one was a top cork. 485 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: What you can do is you can count. You can say, well, 486 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: there are other ways to make the same kind of splashes, 487 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: the same patterns, but we know how often that happens. 488 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: We expect to see maybe ten of those, and so 489 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: if instead we see fifty, that tells us Oh, we 490 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: see more of these specific kinds of splashes in the 491 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: detector than we expected without the top cork, and so 492 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: we think that the top cork is there, and you 493 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: can see it in in lots of different ways, like 494 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: the top cork should decay in this way and in 495 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: that way and in this third way. If you see 496 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: them all together, you sort of build confidence in the story. 497 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: I think it's amazing to me how dependent this is 498 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: on the on the theory. You know. It's like it's 499 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: not like you're looking through rubble and saying and finding 500 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: a pearl or something. It's like, you know, you're really 501 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: relying on the theories to tell you exactly what to 502 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: look for and where to look, and you know they're 503 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: they're also kind of you know, theorizing, and they're not sure, 504 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: and so you could be totally looking in the wrong place. 505 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: You're looking for the wrong thing. It's amazing that it 506 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: ever works. Yes, And there are certainly some discoveries you 507 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: could never make if you didn't know what to look for, Like, 508 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, could we have found the Higgs boson if 509 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: nobody had thought of a pretty subtle signal. Yeah, it's 510 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: a pretty small effect, and so you can imagine another 511 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: universe where you delete Higgs and everybody else who had 512 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: similar ideas from history, and then what experimentalists discover it? 513 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: And there are times that experimentalists have found particles before 514 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: they were conceived of, before anybody had the idea of them. 515 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: And you know, that's my personal scientific fantasy is to 516 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: find a new unanticipated particle, particle that makes that theory 517 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: us go, what that can't be true? What are you 518 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 1: talking about? If that exists, then we got to erase 519 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: all these other things we thought we understood. And that's 520 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: you know, that's the goal, is to crack open the 521 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: deep mysteries of nature and find something surprising. All right, 522 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: So it sounds like up until the seventies and eighties 523 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: and people had looked up to six d g e 524 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: v and found nothing. But so then this is where 525 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: the plot against yea. So now the Sarain gets into 526 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: the game, the Europeans sort of step it up, that's right, 527 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: And so the Americans had it up to a forty 528 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: five g EV and everybody felt like, Okay, this thing 529 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: is around the corner, like it's ridiculous that we haven't 530 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: found it yet. Where like four times the mass. We 531 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: thought it should be. We were certain it should be, 532 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: and so the next collider is definitely going to discover it. 533 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: And so Sarin turned on the collider in the early 534 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: eighties called the SPS the super Proton Signatron, and this 535 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: was run by a guy with a really big personality, 536 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: Carlo Rubia, and he ended up winning the Nobel Prize 537 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: using this collider and this detector for the discovering the 538 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: W boson and the Z boson. And he's a famously 539 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: huge personality, I mean, and he has two Nobel Prizes, 540 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: but he got one for the discovery of those of 541 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: the W and the Z. So he was sort of 542 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: writing high. He was like, hey, I am you know, 543 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: basically got of particle physics. And they saw some interesting 544 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: things in their data around and they started putting stuff 545 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: together and Carlo Rubia sort of got out ahead of 546 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: his skis and before people really looked at this data 547 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: very carefully, he went and called up a reporter for 548 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: the New York Times and said and claimed discovery and said, hey, 549 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: we found this, and he said it like, it looks 550 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: really good. Yeah, he said, it looks really good. And 551 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: then they wrote a paper and they claimed discovery of 552 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: the top cork had around six d g V and 553 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, of course that was not correct. The top 554 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: cork was not there. And I talked to some folks 555 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: who are around at the time and part of that experiment, 556 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: and one guy in particular who worked for Rubia, and 557 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: his job was to go through the data and verify 558 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: that everything looked good. And on his first day he 559 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: could tell him very soon that things were very slowly. 560 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: He looked back at the data and it didn't look 561 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: the way it was described, and the record of what 562 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: had been done didn't seem to match up with the 563 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: results they were getting, and so there's just sort of 564 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: like a lot of sloppy work there. I think there 565 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: was a bit of a rush, like an anticipation. People were, 566 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure it's there. So if we claim discovery, 567 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: even if the data is not quite right, we're sure 568 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: that the data will eventually back us up. I wonder 569 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: how that phone call went, Like did he call the 570 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: public line at the New York Times. It's like, Hi, 571 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: my name is Carla. I think I just covered the particle. 572 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: This is you know, he was a celebrity and he's 573 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: still a big figure in his son is a big 574 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,479 Speaker 1: figure in particle physics today. So this is like it's 575 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: Stephen Hawking calls the New York Times, you know, then 576 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: they pick up they want to hear what he has 577 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: to say. And so he was making a big claim 578 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: and it's kind of embarrassing because they had to walk 579 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: it back. Right, This is they did not discover the 580 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: top work despite their claims. All right, so CERN kind 581 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: of crash and burn here and when um more people 582 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: get into the game, that's right. And that's when the 583 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: Americans picked up the race. And we had a collider 584 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: outside of Chicago at Fermi Lab. It's called the Tevatron, 585 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: and it was the most powerful collider in the history 586 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: of human science at the time, and so it picked 587 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: up the race. The CERN didn't see the top work, 588 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: and they left the limited about sixty nine g V. 589 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: We knew that if it existed, it had to be 590 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: heavierly and about sixty nine g EV and I guess 591 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: people believed each other. Like if you were at the 592 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: Tevatron and CERN says we can't find out at the 593 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: sixty nine, you sort of assume that they were right. 594 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: You don't do you go back or do you go 595 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: back and check. You definitely go back and check absolutely, 596 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: because if they missed it. Yeah, I mean that's the 597 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: point of having these independent experiments is to check each other. 598 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: And also, you know, there's a lot of antagonism and 599 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: rivalry between these experiments, like they want to find it 600 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: and they want to scoop the other one. I mean, 601 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: scientists are all about scooping other experiments. That's one thing 602 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: I think the public doesn't understand about science. It's not 603 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: a monolithic enterprise where we all sit down together and 604 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: decide what we're going to announce, right. You know. That's 605 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: why it's impossible to have like scientific conspiracies for very long, 606 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: because the data reveals the truth. And some scientists out there, 607 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: if you're b essing with your results, if you're covering 608 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: up something, some scientists out there is going to get 609 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: some data that shows you're wrong, and they are going 610 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: to show you're wrong, and you're gonna be embarrassed. Yeah. Yeah, 611 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: I think the same way too. It's like scientists would 612 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: wish nothing more than to prove each other wrong. And 613 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: so if we have something like climate Chamber of Scientists 614 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: agree that you know, you know that those ninety eight 615 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: scientists are trying to disprove each other, so the fact 616 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: that they agree is must mean a lot. Yeah, and 617 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: you know there's also international politics here because the torches 618 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: passing back and forth between Europe and America started looking 619 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: for it in Germany and went to Japan, momentarily went 620 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: back to America with slack. Then Cerin thought they were 621 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: gonna win it. And then the Americans come in with 622 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: their new accelerator, and you know, they seem like they're 623 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: poised to find this thing. So there's also a lot 624 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: of national dre right, all right, so the Americans have 625 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: the football the running, they will Will this be a 626 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: Bruce Willis movie where American wins at the end? Let's 627 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: find out after the break, all right, Daniel, we are 628 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: We are in the middle of this drama that's unfolding 629 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: about the discovery of the top cork. And the Germans failed, 630 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: the Japanese failed, the people in California. I guess California 631 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: is kind of like a different country, the nation state 632 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: of California. We failed a certain didn't couldn't find it 633 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: up to sixty nine giga electron VOLD. Now there's a 634 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: new collider called Tematron outside of Chicago that thinks they 635 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: get to football and they make a run for it. 636 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: But the drama is not over right, And so the 637 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: tavatron very powerful collid or. It had the potential to 638 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: discover the top cork up to about two hundred g V. 639 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: So there was like a lot of territory there that 640 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: the Tevatron could discover. But it was not just a 641 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: happy party. It wasn't just like the Tevatron is just 642 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: one group. They set it up like a competition. They 643 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: set it up they had two separate groups with their 644 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: own detector competing to find this thing. Wow, that's and 645 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: that's new too, right, That's like none of the other 646 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: teams have done that. It's like putting your kids to 647 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: fight against each other. It's a bit like a reality show. 648 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: Some of the other accelerators, like Tristan had multiple experiments, um, 649 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: but some of them only had one. But it's you know, 650 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: it's a bit controversial, but I think it's good because 651 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: it motivates people, you know, it keeps them honest. And also, 652 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: if you're gonna make this big discovery that people have 653 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: been looking for for now twenty years, you really want 654 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: to have independent information. And so we're here by now 655 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: in the very late eighties, in the early nineties, and 656 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: we had two experimental collaborations. One was called c d 657 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: F and the other one was called D zero. There 658 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: was some friend leanness between them, but also there was 659 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: a lot of animosity really. So they're all working the 660 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: same place, like eating at the same cafeteria. Yes, they're 661 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: all eating at the same cafeteria, but they have their 662 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: own detectors. So Fermilab is a big ring. It's like 663 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: four miles around where the protons swing around and smash 664 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: into each other. And the protons collided at four different 665 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: places around the ring. And CDF had one of those places, 666 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: they had their own collisions and D zero had a 667 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: different place when they built their detector around that other 668 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: collision point. So they would go off to their own 669 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,719 Speaker 1: detectors and work during the day, and then you have 670 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,239 Speaker 1: lunch together and you know, try not to growl at 671 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: each other too much over their sandwiches and the others 672 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: cafeteria food. Yeah, and you know there's something of a 673 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: cultural difference here because CDF was earlier, like they got 674 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: funding first, they got built first, they started collecting data 675 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: before D zero was even finished, and they had sort 676 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: of the fancier universities, you know, Harvard, m T. Yale, 677 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: all these Stanford, all these big famous universities there on 678 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: CDF and zero sort of came along later. It was 679 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: a scrappy er. It was cheaper, it was late in 680 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: the game, and so you had the sort of different 681 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: culture and different personalities and c DF was very hierarchical 682 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: and D zero was a bit more wide open in 683 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: terms of the culture of the feel like you're sending 684 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: it up here. Who is the clear underdog? Yes, exactly, 685 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: like the Ivy League. You know, um snotty dude, or 686 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: who has all the money and the attention, and then 687 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: there's a scrappy This is definitely Bob's College of Knowledge 688 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: versus the Ivy League. Man. All right, well, if this 689 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: was a Hollywood movie, I would know who to root 690 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: for it, but who knows it signs? Yeah, exactly, Well, 691 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 1: maybe we'll make a Hollywood movie about this story. So 692 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: they turned the accelerator on, it starts to run, and 693 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: by like lateree, CDF had some interesting hints. They're like, 694 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: they had some events that looked like maybe top cork, 695 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: but it's hard to say, right, there are ways that 696 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: you can mimic what the top cork looks like. You 697 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: can't take a picture of the event and say with 698 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: one event, I found it, here's the one. You need 699 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: enough statistics. You need to say, you know, the background 700 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: looks like ten, but there's an uncertainty of one, and 701 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: I found twenty and that's very unlikely to have come 702 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: from this background. So you know, is that the number 703 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: that you typically need, just like twenty times you have 704 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: to find it and that's it. What you need is 705 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: you need to calculate the chance for the background to 706 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: fluctuate to look like the signal, like the background is 707 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: other ways to make the same signature, and your detector 708 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: that looks like a top cork, and you know there's fluctuation. 709 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics is random. You do the same experiment a 710 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: hundred times, you get a different set of splashes and 711 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: your detector. So what you calculate is the probability for 712 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: there to be no top cork and for your data 713 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: to look like top corks. It's like it's if you 714 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 1: roll a die, you know you're going to get four 715 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: a certain number of times, but if you roll the die, 716 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: keep rolling the die and you get four a lot 717 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: more than one six of the time. Then you know 718 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: it's like a there's something funny about that die exactly, 719 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: And before you're certain that the die is biased, you 720 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: want to roll it a lot of times. You don't 721 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: just roll it and get four. Once we're like, oh, 722 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: the die is biased, right, because that could happen randomly, exactly. 723 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: And so CDF saw a few events which looked interesting 724 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: and looked weird. But you know, everybody was primed to 725 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: discover this thing, and so they try to also be 726 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: really skeptical and unbiased on the statistics. We decided we 727 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: were not going to declare we had actually discovered this 728 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: thing until the chances that were a fluctuation were less 729 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: than one in millions. Because they learned from Carla Rubia 730 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: what happens if you claim discovery too early. Yes, it's embarrassing, 731 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: and particle physics, I think because of that experience with 732 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: Ruby on the top cork at certain is now very 733 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: very conservative. They're terrified of claiming discovery and then having 734 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: to walk it back, and so they only claim discovery 735 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: when they get to this five sigma threshold, which is 736 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: when the odds are millions against it being a fluctuation. 737 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: All right, so CDF, the snotty Ivy League favorite twin 738 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: find something, but it's not enough, that's right. In ninety 739 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 1: three they had some hints and then in they had, 740 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, a nice little collection events that seemed unlikely 741 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 1: to be just background. It seemed it smelled like top 742 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: cork um and there are a lot of rumors swirling 743 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: around the community. And there was an agreement at the lab. 744 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: You know, these two different groups c d F and 745 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: D zero, and the agreement was, if you're going to 746 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: go public, if you're gonna claim your discovery, you have 747 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: to tell the director of the lab first and give 748 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,760 Speaker 1: the other experiment two weeks to sort of scramble together 749 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: to say something. At the same time, they wanted to 750 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: present sort of a unified message. What really, wasn't it 751 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: a competition, like what's the incentive them or do you 752 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: get to claim to be the ones who discovered it? Well, 753 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: it is a competition, but also, you know, Fermia Lab 754 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: didn't want like racing press conferences. You know, if these 755 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: two groups really are going to discover it about the 756 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: same time, then they wanted a unified statement. If one 757 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: was really far a head, then two weeks was not 758 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: going to give anybody enough time to like really catch up. 759 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: But they felt like it was a sort of a 760 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, a gentleman's agreement, like we'll let you know 761 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: if we're about to call the New York Times. Oh, 762 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: I see, because and then then what would happen Like 763 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: press release would go out and would say CDF founded 764 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: and it's confirmed by d O D zero. Yeah, that's 765 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: the idea. But you know, in ninety four D zero 766 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: really didn't have very much, like they had one interesting 767 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: event they had found, but you know, they had really 768 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: just turned on. They didn't even have access to the 769 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: earlier data because their detector didn't even exist for those 770 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: first runs, so it was really just CDF on its own. 771 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: And in about CDF told the firmulab director. They said, look, 772 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: we have twelve events that look like top works. The 773 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: chance of fluctuations about one in four hundred, which is 774 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: not enough for discovery. It's like it smells like top work, 775 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: it seems like top works. A lot of arguments inside 776 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: CDF about what exactly to claim, but finally the conservative 777 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: group inside there said we are not play mean discovery 778 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: on a one four hundred chants but they put this 779 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: paper out because they wanted to sort of like stick 780 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: their their namely they put it in what did the 781 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: papers say that we found something but we don't know. Yeah, 782 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: it looks really good. Yeah it looks really good. But 783 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: you can't use the word discovery unless you've reached this 784 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: statistical threshold for significance. And at the time D zero 785 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: was like, well, we don't have enough, Like, we have 786 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: some interesting stuff, but our data looks more like background 787 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: than CDs data. Their fluctuation probability was one in forty, 788 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: so they didn't their data was not nearly as the 789 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: information from CDF maybe told them where to look, yes, 790 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: or were they both looking at near the same you know, 791 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: kind of energy level. No. That was a very important 792 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: clue because remember Sirin left the game around sixty nine 793 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: g vs and then people thought, well, the top must 794 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: be like a hundred. It couldn't possibly be much more 795 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: than a hundred, right, the people were focusing their search 796 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,720 Speaker 1: around a hundred a hundred twenty. It makes a difference 797 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: because as it gets heavier, it changes how it decays 798 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: the other kind of particles that can turned into. So 799 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: this gave D zero a clue and then in the 800 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: summer of zero got very very lucky. Really, so wait, 801 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: so they were both looking so CDF was looking in 802 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,919 Speaker 1: the higher energies and d zero was not. But now 803 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: they got a hint at CCF was was looking at 804 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: the higher energy. So now they we're both looking at 805 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: the higher energy. And then then then they got more data. 806 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,879 Speaker 1: And then they got more data because the accelerator group 807 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: discovered that one of the magnets had been put in wrong. 808 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: So like what exactly it was turned ninety degrees from 809 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: where it was supposed to be, and so the not 810 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: like point zero one degree. Somebody she really messed it up. 811 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: Somebody really messed it up. You know. They had one 812 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: of these Ikea drawings for how to assemble a particle accelerator, 813 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: and it's hard to get that stuff right. You know, 814 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: I feel like tetron is do sound like an Ikea name? Yeah, 815 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: And and so what they did is they discovered this 816 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: and they fixed it. They rotated the magnet, and then 817 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: all of a sudden the accelerator was working much better. 818 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 1: It's very important that these magnets are arranged correctly because 819 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: they focused the beams, and the more you can get 820 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: those beams down to really small locations so that the 821 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: two beams of protons overlap, the more collisions you're going 822 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: to get. They hadn't notice this before they had well, 823 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: they had noticed that it wasn't working as well as 824 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: they hoped. But you know, this is not like downloaded 825 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: from the Internet and running on your laptop. This is 826 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: something nobody had ever built before, this cutting edge technology. 827 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: So you know, you never know how these things are 828 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: going to operate, but it often takes a few years 829 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: for the engineers to figure out, like how to make 830 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: this thing really humb You know, you gotta kick it 831 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: here and twist this knob and flip that button three times, 832 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: and then it's really gonna sing. And so that's what 833 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: happened in the summer. I feel like this in the 834 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: next part of the story is gonna tell me that 835 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: the this magnet that was discovered that was wrong was 836 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: discovered by this upstart intern called Daniel Wison, who was 837 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: working there at the time. No, I was in college 838 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: at the time. I didn't even know about particle physics 839 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: at the time I was. I was still thinking I 840 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: was going to do plasma physics, so I was involved 841 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: at all somebody found somebody found it. And the reason 842 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: it's important in the story is that all of a sudden, 843 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: the data started coming in much more rapidly, so it 844 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: didn't make much of a difference anymore that CDF had 845 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: been there early, that they had access to data that 846 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: D zero didn't have, because now there was like an 847 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: avalanche of data, and so this first few percent of 848 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: the data now irrelevant. So DZ are basically caught up 849 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: to where CDF was in terms of how much data 850 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: that had access to because the flood. And they both 851 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,399 Speaker 1: share the same collider, so it's like everyone's getting more data. 852 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: Everyone's getting more data. Exactly, they have different collisions. Actual 853 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: collisions are different statistically independent, but they share the collider. 854 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 1: They're drinking from the same river, all right. So now 855 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 1: and now there's a lots of data, and so who 856 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: makes the first claim. So in January d zero showed 857 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: some results at the Aspen Winter Conference, a very important 858 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: conference in particle physics. But they didn't look great. There 859 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: was more convincing evidence of the top cork than they 860 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: had before, but they hadn't yet like re optimized their analysis. 861 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: They were still doing their calculations the old way, and 862 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: so their results were like, you know, one and one 863 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: fifty chances of fluctuation. So people thought like, oh, that's weird. 864 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: You know. D zero's has all this new data, but 865 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: they haven't yet like really optimized how to look at it. 866 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: So CDF was like in top Speed. They were like 867 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: they were racing. They were sure they were going to 868 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: find this thing, and they had a bunch of really 869 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: smart people and they worked really hard and they had 870 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: a great result. And this is in February. Now they 871 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: had a result which is basically totally inconsistent with just background. 872 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: It looked like top cork. Top cork was the only 873 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: way to explain it. The chances of it being a 874 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: fluctuation were now like one in a million. So they 875 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: did it. They did it, but they had to tell 876 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: the director. They couldn't just go to the New York 877 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: Times and claim discovery. They had to call them lab 878 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: director and say we're going public in two They had 879 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: to follow the rules. They had to follow the rules. 880 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 1: So then from a lab director calls D zero and says, 881 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: by the way, DF has found the top cork. You 882 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 1: guys got I wonder if that's the phrase he used. 883 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: He's like, oh, yeah, did you guys want the bathroom 884 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: t h. Yeah. Oh, by the way, your brother, your 885 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: sister just found the top cork. Yeah. Well D zero 886 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: had been working furiously, of course, because they had this 887 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: new pilot data and they were working to improve the 888 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: way they were analyzing it. And so I'm very curious 889 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: to know, like what it was like to be on 890 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: that experiment in those two weeks. Did anybody sleep at all? 891 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: Did they stay up all night because the option was 892 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: discovered the top cork alongside CDF or be left in 893 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: the dust. Right, So nobody's like on vacation, nobody's like, 894 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: you know, taking a break to watch a movie or whatever. 895 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: This is like these two yeah, these two weeks to 896 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: find your scientific legacy, right, and so, but they did it, 897 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: and they came out with a really strong results. They 898 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: were almost there anyways, right, Yeah. Well, there's a lot 899 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: of discussion here. There's a lot of grumbling from old 900 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: folks who are on CDF that they shouldn't have had 901 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: to tell D zero and that only because they gave 902 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: de zero the clue that it was there, that the 903 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: zero scrambled something together. And then you know, when you're 904 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: on the giving side, they complained, but if they were 905 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: on the receiving side of it, it would be grateful. 906 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: And then you know, you talk to people who are 907 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 1: on D zero at the time and they're like, no, 908 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: we were totally on track. We had this thing. You know, 909 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: we were gonna be ready anyway. We were about to 910 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: pick up a call on the phone to call the director. Also, 911 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: I also had that idea, yeah, exactly, exactly, a lot 912 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: of this, and so then in the end it was 913 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: March second, they had a press conference together, a joint 914 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: discovery press conference. They submitted papers the same second, like 915 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: they synchronized their computers, really submitted their papers and discovered 916 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: and the claim discovery of the top so that each 917 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: of the papers said that they found it together or 918 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: or just both papers said we found it at the 919 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: same time. Each independently wrote their own papers saying we 920 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: discovered the top corks and other two papers published on 921 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: the same day, so they have equal precedents that have 922 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: independent evidence for the top cork, each with a background 923 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: fluctuation probability around a million around. I''m picturing it like 924 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: a Hollywood movie, right, I'm picturing the press release and 925 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,799 Speaker 1: I'm preaching the fancy folks at CDF looking bitter and 926 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: uh like they're upstage and and I'm picturing the zero physicists, 927 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, scruffee. They're wearing sandals, they haven't shaved, and 928 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: they're feeling pretty happy in high five of each other. Yeah, 929 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of that. I think there 930 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:28,919 Speaker 1: is a lot of that. And you know, I wasn't 931 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: around at the time. And the professor who came into 932 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: my class that March morning, very probably showing this paper. 933 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: He was on D zero and went to Rice and 934 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: it was on the D zero experiment. He was a 935 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: finished guy. Actually bore the same thing every day. He 936 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: used to joke like, did he only didn't have like 937 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: a closet full of those shirts? It was it just 938 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: the same shirt every day. We didn't know it was 939 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 1: a quantum mechanical question, but he knew had to dress. 940 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: You know. It was a nice button down shirt, buttoned 941 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: all the way to the very top. Yeah, you need 942 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: exactly how to dress. That's why he never came. He 943 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: was really he was a really nice guy. He's the 944 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: guy who got me into particle physics. And here we are, 945 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: and here we are. They found the top quart that 946 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,720 Speaker 1: was it in March? Second? What was I doing in Daniel? 947 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: You're probably drawing cartoons up and I was? Was it 948 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: Georgia tech Um, Yeah, I was a junior sophomore. I 949 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: was probably in my pajama. Probably. Well, it's a you know, 950 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: it's a crazy long saga because they started looking for 951 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: this thing in the late seventies, expecting to find it 952 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,720 Speaker 1: at any moment, and then for basically the next twenty 953 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: years they thought it was gonna be around the corner, 954 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: around the corner, around the corner, and then finally they 955 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: did actually find it. So it was a real moment 956 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: of triumph for particle physics, but also a moment of 957 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: head scratching because this thing is a hundred and seventy 958 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 1: five times heavier than the proton. It weighs as much 959 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: as the nucleus of a gold atom, and that's really weird, 960 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, And time you see something in particle physics 961 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't fit into a pattern, you ask why, because 962 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: often those questions lead to ideas that lead to like 963 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: pulling back a layer of reality and seeing what's underneath. 964 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: And it's been you know what, almost thirty years since 965 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: we found the top cork and we still don't know 966 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: why it's so have you. We're still studying it at 967 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: the large h On Collider, trying to figure out what 968 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: it means that the top cork is so mass because 969 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,400 Speaker 1: it's weird, right, because it weighs more than you know, 970 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: it's a basic particle of nature, but it weighs more 971 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,840 Speaker 1: than all of these complex build atoms. That's right. And 972 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: remember when we're talking about particles in their masses, we're 973 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 1: not talking about like different sizes of particles. It's not 974 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: like the top cork has more stuff to it. These 975 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: are points in space. Each point just gets assigned a 976 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,240 Speaker 1: certain amount of mass based on how much it's slowed 977 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: down by the Higgs field. So you might say, well, 978 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: doesn't that just mean that this thing interacts with the 979 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: Higgs field more and that's why it has more mass. Yeah? Sure, 980 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: but you just transform the question into why does this 981 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: one interact with the Higgs field more? Why does the 982 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: up work interact very little with Higgs field and the 983 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: top work aligne What sets that knob? And that's a 984 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: question we have no clue about the end. I feel 985 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: like it's also more expensive than gold. You know, has 986 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: anyone figured out like how much money was spent to 987 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:22,359 Speaker 1: find this work that divided that. No, that's good, that's 988 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah. You know, a ring made out 989 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: of top quirks would be very experiensive and also kind 990 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: of explosive and not good for your finger and last 991 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,960 Speaker 1: or about ten of the twenty three seconds, So not 992 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 1: a good investment. All right, Well, I think this is 993 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: I was. I was glued to my seat, Daniel, and 994 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: I'm a little exhausted now all this drama. Well, you know, 995 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: the funny thing is that that was the last discovery 996 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: of that century, and then we didn't discover a new 997 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: particle until the Higgs Boson in twelve and so Higgs 998 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: boson has kind of also this kind of drama about it. Right. 999 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,319 Speaker 1: There was a famous documentary movie called what's it called 1000 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,879 Speaker 1: Particle Particle Fever, Yeah, and which which shows you these 1001 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: two groups trying to find the Higgs Boson and and 1002 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of this drama as well. It's a 1003 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,760 Speaker 1: pretty good movie. Yes, And you know, Carlo Rubia plays 1004 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,800 Speaker 1: a big role in the discovery of the Higgs boson, Yes, 1005 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 1: and in sabotaging the Americans attempts to discover it. We'll 1006 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 1: tell that story in another episode, a sequel. We'll do 1007 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: it in three years, but we never know when the 1008 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,399 Speaker 1: next discovery will come. Would be another twenty years before 1009 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,399 Speaker 1: we find a new particle, or tomorrow when I opened 1010 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: my laptop, well, I get an email from my students saying, 1011 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: look at this weird bump in the data. You never 1012 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: bring me some coffee. I need my discovery pajamas. Where 1013 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,959 Speaker 1: are my Discovery pajamas? They're in the wash. Oh no, 1014 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: dang it. The Europeans are gonna beat us. They don't 1015 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: wear pajamas. All right. Well, I think this again points 1016 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: to you know, how much stories to discover. You know, 1017 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,040 Speaker 1: we never know. We never know what's out there beyond 1018 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: what we can see with our telescopes or with our colliders. 1019 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,640 Speaker 1: You know that, it's like we're blind to a huge 1020 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 1: part of the universe. There's a huge unknown out there, 1021 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: that's right. We just keep chipping away at this rock, 1022 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,720 Speaker 1: hoping to discover fascinating fossils underneath, hoping that there's something 1023 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: for us to learn. But you never know. That's why 1024 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: research really is like exploration. We're not reading textbooks, we're 1025 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: trying to write them, and we don't know what's coming next, 1026 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: and the only way to figure it out to just 1027 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: go out there and tap, tap, tap and see what 1028 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 1: we learned. Thank sure you have your magnets on the 1029 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: right way, and that you'll be you'll be good. Follow 1030 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: those like keya diagrams very carefully. All right, Well, we 1031 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,920 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, see you 1032 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and 1033 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of I Heart Radio. 1034 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,880 Speaker 1: For more podcast for my heart Radio, visit the i 1035 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1036 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,880 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.