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Speaker 1: M. Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's

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Speaker 1: Saturday Select Stuff you should know, I'm doing handwriting analysis.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. It's from October two thirteen, and uh

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Speaker 1: I just selected this one because I thought it dovetailed

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Speaker 1: nicely with our Secret Service episode this week. So enjoy.

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Speaker 1: M Welcome to Stuff you should Know from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Josh Clark, and there's Charles c V, Chuck Bryant and

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Speaker 1: this stuff you should know. Cherry's over there. That's right,

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Speaker 1: we're all here. Yeah, we're at the ready for another

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Speaker 1: yet another forensics podcast. Yes we are. I thought we

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Speaker 1: were done. No, I don't know that wherever we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be done? He and Chuck not only are we never

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Speaker 1: going to be finished. This one, like every other forensics

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Speaker 1: episode we've ever done, traces back to Alphonse Bertillon. Oh

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Speaker 1: is he the first dude? He's the guy he did fingerprinting,

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Speaker 1: he did um like facial characteristics. Yeah, the the mug shots, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: mug shots and um, what's it called the facial sketch

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Speaker 1: artist dree, police sketches and crime scene photography even um

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Speaker 1: maybe so it's entirely possible. Well, we owe a great

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Speaker 1: debt to that man. Yeah, he was basically like he

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Speaker 1: had his finger on the pulse of like forensics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like every subdiscipline of the field of forensics. Like this

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Speaker 1: guy virtually started it at a Paris police station. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it would be you know, unless you were doing the

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Speaker 1: research and found out he was kind of a jerk. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but who cares. Well, no, then you have to like

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Speaker 1: kind of beef his character up and maybe he was

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Speaker 1: what is he like? Um, like he was alted or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Does he need like an orphan to

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Speaker 1: come into his life? Elected with Gandhi? Remember that movie?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, made him look like a saint. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: I think at the very least people if not uh

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Speaker 1: you may not be able to become forensics experts, but

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Speaker 1: at the very least you can watch all those TV

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Speaker 1: shows now with a better understanding, right, you know? Is

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Speaker 1: that what we're trying to do to help people better

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Speaker 1: watch TV? Chuck? Yes, have you ever written anything by hand?

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Speaker 1: You laugh? But think about this, Pale. There's a time

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Speaker 1: that's coming when there's not gonna be much need whatsoever

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Speaker 1: for that. I know there is currently a legitimate debate

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Speaker 1: on whether or not to keep teaching cursive handwriting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that the debate has been answered, and the

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Speaker 1: people who want to keep teaching cursive just haven't quite

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Speaker 1: accepted their fate yet. Those the answer, No, sure, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I was looking at a copybooks, which we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about in a second, um, And apparently the whole

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Speaker 1: point to teaching penmanship lie in the in the in

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Speaker 1: an era where if you had good penmanship, you were

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Speaker 1: like that was a part of business, Like you needed

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Speaker 1: to look respectable, put together. Yeah, like your your business

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Speaker 1: transactions were carried out through handwriting too typically, and you

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Speaker 1: needed to have good, clean handwriting said a lot about

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Speaker 1: your character. This is also at a time when people

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Speaker 1: were burned to the steak for witchcraft shortly after, so

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe you don't put that much stock into it,

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Speaker 1: but there was a point in time when like handwriting counted.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't count any longer. And I'm I'm not saying like,

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely not waving like the flag of glory over

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Speaker 1: the corpse of cursive writing, right, I'm not. You're doing

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Speaker 1: it right now? No, I don't mean to, And that's

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Speaker 1: why I said I'm not doing that because, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is the writings on the wall,

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Speaker 1: as it were. I'm not necessarily about it now. It's

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Speaker 1: the last thing anyone ever wrote in cursive was that

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Speaker 1: cursive is dead. Yeah, you know, I can say that.

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Speaker 1: I don't write by hand that much anymore, and um

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Speaker 1: when I do now, I get weird with it. I

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Speaker 1: leave out letters and have to go back and put

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Speaker 1: them in here. I'll write out of order, and even

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Speaker 1: this word I put c additional. I left out like

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Speaker 1: three letters and had to go back and put them in.

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Speaker 1: But I do it really quickly. It's not like I'm stumped.

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Speaker 1: But um, like if I was writing in cursive, i'd

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Speaker 1: be stumped. Yeah, I tried to know how. I've tried

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Speaker 1: to write cursive here there, just to see if I

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Speaker 1: still have it, and I do not lost it. I

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Speaker 1: don't think I ever really had the Z. It's a

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Speaker 1: tough one, remember the Z. Yeah, I could write a

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Speaker 1: Z right now, um spreak in uh okay, but yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's weird. It's almost like a dyslexic thing happens now

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Speaker 1: when I write. You would use this spa. You could

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Speaker 1: spray pain and cursive. Z I could do that right now?

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Speaker 1: I think I be better at spray painting and cursives

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Speaker 1: even writing it, yeah, because it'd be large and yeah yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: the point is its cursive is probably dead. Writing things

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Speaker 1: down by hand is becoming less and less. Um, what

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Speaker 1: is that? I'm sorry everyone, I don't mean to interrupt myself,

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Speaker 1: but Chuck has held up one of his pages of

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Speaker 1: notes and there's some weird writing on the back. What

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Speaker 1: is that? You know? What? That is? My parents signatures?

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Speaker 1: Because I was seeing if I could still duplicate them

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Speaker 1: as I could back in high school. You used to

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Speaker 1: do that? Sure? What for You're a good kid in

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Speaker 1: high school? What did you need to know your parents signatures?

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Speaker 1: Here's what I would do. I was a good kid,

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Speaker 1: but I would skip school and class sometimes. What did

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Speaker 1: like go fishing with rad and Uh that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't good. I wasn't like doing drugs or drinking.

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Speaker 1: I would skip school and like go fishing. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then I would write notes then forge my parents signature,

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Speaker 1: which is not right kids. But um, it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: I was off being a vandal or anything. I was

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Speaker 1: is catching some trout, catching some trout and beating foxes

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Speaker 1: in the head of the hammer, huffing Scotch guard. But

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Speaker 1: I used to could really do with my parents signature

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Speaker 1: spot on, and I was very proud of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so how is it? How is it hold up comparing

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Speaker 1: before because I don't I don't have what's called an exemplar.

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Speaker 1: My mom's little initial signature is still pretty right on

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Speaker 1: m T d MB, but my father's is UM. I

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Speaker 1: used to could do that one a lot better. That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a fine signature. Can I see it all

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Speaker 1: more time? James Allen Bryant, that's a nice one. Yeah, huh,

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Speaker 1: all right. You've never forged your parents signature? Don't know, uh,

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Speaker 1: neither one of them. I may have tried, I think

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Speaker 1: I remember even practicing. I think because my dad seems

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Speaker 1: like just looking at it, it's highly duplicable. Um, but

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Speaker 1: it's not really like you. You can you can tell that.

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Speaker 1: I I want to say the person because I refer

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Speaker 1: to myself a third person A lot um was trying

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Speaker 1: to recreate it. Just make a potato stamp and your set.

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Speaker 1: I've never tried that one. You got your signature for

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Speaker 1: life with a potato snamp like you just carve out Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you never did that in craft class. You carve out

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Speaker 1: something in a and press it on inc and a

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Speaker 1: potato and then press it on ink and you basically

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Speaker 1: can make your own stamp. No it makes sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: potato stamps. No, we didn't make those. You missed out, buddy,

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Speaker 1: um chuck. I feel like we've kind of covered a

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Speaker 1: lot of like points of handwriting analysis, little teasers before

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Speaker 1: we start too. I think we should point out that

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about, and I was just made to

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Speaker 1: find on the internets that when you search handwriting analysis,

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Speaker 1: what comes up is actually graphology. Yeah, that's that comes

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Speaker 1: up a lot. Which if handwriting analysis, friends of handwriting

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Speaker 1: analysis is really struggling forging ahead to become a science,

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Speaker 1: graphology is quite happy to not be whatsoever. It's all, um,

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Speaker 1: very un scientific. That's like, can let me write down

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Speaker 1: a sentence and you tell me what kind of person

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Speaker 1: I am? Exactly Like if you write using small letters,

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Speaker 1: you're actually afraid of the world and very self conscious

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Speaker 1: and you want to hide or disappear. Or another example

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Speaker 1: is if um, like the first letters in your first

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Speaker 1: and last name are big, your signature. Yeah, you you

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Speaker 1: crave attention or you think overly of yourself. None of

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Speaker 1: this is founded at allever. It's HOKEM. Handwriting analysis while still,

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Speaker 1: like I said, struggling to be a science is um

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Speaker 1: much less. HOKEM has one fatal flaw that's possibly not fatal,

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Speaker 1: but it's the same flaw that UM fingerprint analysis has.

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Speaker 1: Subject subjectivity, that's right, which we'll talk about. But maybe

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Speaker 1: now is a good time for a message. But hey,

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Speaker 1: now we're back. Um, let's talk about handwriting analysis in

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Speaker 1: handwriting in general. Chuckers Okay, Um, well it's it's questioned

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Speaker 1: documents is the legal term for what they're analyzing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not just handwriting. It could be like forgeries. Yeah, dude,

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Speaker 1: it could be a lot of stuff. These people UM

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Speaker 1: questioned document examiners q d s. Uh. They examined typewriting,

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Speaker 1: computer printed documents, photo copies, uh, decipherment of altered, obliterated,

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Speaker 1: or charred documents. Yeah, but that's a tough one. Um.

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Speaker 1: Examination of inks and papers, erased entries, indented writings like

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Speaker 1: you know, you wrote something on a pad and ripped

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Speaker 1: it up. Yeah. There's a whole division of people who

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Speaker 1: just rubbed pencils on a piece of paper to see

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Speaker 1: what comes up, counterfeit currency, and examination of commercially printed matter.

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Speaker 1: So they're kind of all over the place, but the

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Speaker 1: sexy stuff is and a lot of times, just in

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Speaker 1: the private sector, it's not even for forensics. It's hey,

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Speaker 1: examine the signature on this document, right, like, real it,

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Speaker 1: did Mickey Mantill sign this baseball? Yeah? Exactly. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: what they're looking for, and what the entire field of

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Speaker 1: forensic handwriting analysis is based on, is called the principle

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Speaker 1: of uniqueness, which has been around since at least the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, and it is the idea that everybody has

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Speaker 1: their own brand of handwriting and that um, while maybe

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Speaker 1: you make a cursive Z in a certain way, that

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Speaker 1: I might make the same Z in the same way.

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Speaker 1: If you take all of the characteristics that you have

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Speaker 1: and put them together, you form a unique package. Your

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Speaker 1: handwriting is unique in that sense. So the individual weird

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Speaker 1: characteristics might be similar to other people's weird individual characteristics,

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Speaker 1: but you can't put twenty or thirty weird characteristics of

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Speaker 1: hand writing together and compared to anybody else's. And so

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Speaker 1: based on that, you should logically be able to look

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Speaker 1: at one person's handwriting and compared it to a sample

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Speaker 1: of another person's handwriting or the same person's handwriting, and

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Speaker 1: see whether they match or whether they were written by

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Speaker 1: two different people based on the the number of differences

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Speaker 1: or similarities between the two samples. Boom, Yeah, so let's

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Speaker 1: talk about handwriting. Yeah, and those are individual characteristics. Um.

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Speaker 1: Before that, you have what's called or everyone has an

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Speaker 1: underlying style characteristic, and that is based on the fact

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Speaker 1: that when you were a little snot nose kid in school,

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Speaker 1: they gave you what's called a copybook which had I know,

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Speaker 1: we all remember this words on one line and then

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Speaker 1: an empty line where you had to copy it and

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Speaker 1: make it look like that. And depending on where you

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Speaker 1: live and when you live and went to school, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have a different copybook. So you're underlying style

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Speaker 1: characteristics are going to be based on this original copybook

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Speaker 1: that you might have some similarities with people like for

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Speaker 1: me that grew up in the mid seventies and elementary

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Speaker 1: school in decapp County, Georgia. Right exactly because you use

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Speaker 1: the same copybook. What's awesome is a handwriting analyst could

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Speaker 1: tell you what copybook you used or where you were

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Speaker 1: from and when based on that that structural analysis. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I imagine teachers even informed that somewhat you know,

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Speaker 1: individual instruction for sure, Yeah, because the teacher is going

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Speaker 1: to be like, that's not in our and like smack

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Speaker 1: your knuckles and say try again. Um. So the copybook

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Speaker 1: how we learn to actually write handwriting UM is based

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Speaker 1: on or creates this um the style characteristic. Right. But

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Speaker 1: then once we actually learn how to produce a letter

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Speaker 1: using our hands, just through repetition, we start to add

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Speaker 1: our own style to it. Um. And that those are

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Speaker 1: the individual characteristics. We stopped thinking about how to make

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Speaker 1: the structure of a letter and we're thinking about, um,

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Speaker 1: how you know what we're actually writing about. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: when it comes to forensic examination, style characteristics aren't really

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Speaker 1: what's important. Maybe that could help rule out certain geographic

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Speaker 1: areas or something, but mainly what they're looking at are

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Speaker 1: those individual characteristics. That's that's kind of where the key

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Speaker 1: is when you want to track down a purpose. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because like we said, I mean the chances of the

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Speaker 1: same person having the same set of individual characteristic pretty much. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing, they're not just looking for similarities.

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Speaker 1: They say in this article. It's probably easy for even

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Speaker 1: a layman to look at two sentences and compare them

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Speaker 1: and say, well, look, these letters are the same. What

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Speaker 1: they're looking for are the differences, and there in lies

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Speaker 1: the key the differences and two different pieces of text.

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Speaker 1: One is the exemplar, which is basically a comparison sample.

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Speaker 1: The exemplar is a preview, this document that you've written

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Speaker 1: in the past, written by a known author. Yeah, like, hey, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: you wrote We found this diary entry for you from

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Speaker 1: five years ago. This will be your exemplar. Now we

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Speaker 1: want you to write some stuff now exactly. Um. So

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Speaker 1: that would be a requested exemplar if they asked you

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Speaker 1: to write something now, um. But either way, they know

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Speaker 1: that this came from you. So it's an exemplar, an

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Speaker 1: example document, and they use those to compare to the

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Speaker 1: question document. So whenever you're talking handwriting analysis, you have

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Speaker 1: to have two kinds of documents. An exemplar in a

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Speaker 1: question document, that's right, you want to talk about Lindbergh

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Speaker 1: for a minute, Yeah, a question document very frequently, um,

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Speaker 1: is a ransom note. That's right. And in the case

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Speaker 1: of the Lindbergh baby, which Grandpa Simpson everybody knows kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: um or is that's what it was. Yeah, Um, there

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Speaker 1: were fourteen ransom notes, yeah from uh. Well depends on

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Speaker 1: who you asked. A lot of people think Bruno Houtman

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Speaker 1: was innocent, maybe an executed uh as an innocent man.

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Speaker 1: But there was still fourteen ransom notes. Still fourteen notes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And they when Bruno Holtman came in, they couldn't find,

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Speaker 1: um many exemplars from his past, so they said, well,

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Speaker 1: let's just get him in custody and have him write

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Speaker 1: some things down, right, And that's just put putting it lightly,

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Speaker 1: which that's fine, good idea procedurally speaking, that's a requested exemplar.

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Speaker 1: All right. The thing is the police had this guy

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Speaker 1: right until he was exhausted over and over again. Apparently

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Speaker 1: he wasn't producing what they wanted him to produce. So

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Speaker 1: they said, here see this ransom note, copy this, yea,

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Speaker 1: and the guy did it. Um. And apparently every bit

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Speaker 1: of handwriting analysis that they are a sample that they

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Speaker 1: got from this guy was coerced um and questionable as

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Speaker 1: questionable as the question document. That's right, Um, But he

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Speaker 1: was still convicted and executed, right, yeah, and who knows

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Speaker 1: if he was innocent or not. There's all kinds of

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Speaker 1: varying opinions on the Internet, of course, but at the

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Speaker 1: very least, the handwriting documents in his his samples that

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Speaker 1: he gave were definitely coerced and probably not the best

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Speaker 1: thing to put your case on. And that was an

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Speaker 1: early obstacle that handwriting analysis has had to overcome, was

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Speaker 1: creating procedures for the police to say if you're going

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Speaker 1: to request an examplar, like, here's how you do it,

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Speaker 1: here's what to ask for. Do not show them the

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Speaker 1: question document, don't ask them to copy, just have them right.

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Speaker 1: That's why you should always cut your ransom note out

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Speaker 1: from the funny papers and individual letters. Plus it looks

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Speaker 1: cool and creepy. Yeah. Um, so, what what you're looking

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Speaker 1: for if you're going to compare things is not hey,

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Speaker 1: look at the sentence and compared to the sentence, because

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Speaker 1: that doesn't tell you much. You want numerous exemplars. You

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Speaker 1: want like ten documents that you can compare to ten

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Speaker 1: other documents. The reason behind that um is because when

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Speaker 1: you write something, so you're writing a letter. When you

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Speaker 1: start you're all fresh faced and bushy tailed, and then

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Speaker 1: as you go further down the page, you get a

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Speaker 1: little more tired, a little more fatigued, and your writing

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Speaker 1: starts to fall apart. So you're never gonna write the

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Speaker 1: same way twice. Um, which even within a document, right,

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Speaker 1: which is a characteristic in and of itself. What's more, Um,

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Speaker 1: starting a word with the letter A, you're probably going

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Speaker 1: to produce that A differently than an A that comes

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a word or at the end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do that for sure. And like certain letters will connect, um,

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Speaker 1: but only certain letters, Like I might connect to my

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Speaker 1: T to my H in the middle of a word,

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Speaker 1: you know, but not at the beginning that kind of thing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So what are they looking for, Well, they're looking for

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Speaker 1: several things are looking for They're looking for a letter form,

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Speaker 1: which is like, um, you know the curves, um, the

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Speaker 1: saw eyes of the letters. But you know, the relationship

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Speaker 1: between a letter that's supposed to be small like an

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Speaker 1: S and a letter that's supposed to be big like

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Speaker 1: maybe an H. Yeah, even the width within a single letter,

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Speaker 1: maybe the slant the slope, um, whether or not, like

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Speaker 1: I talked about, you connect certain letters together links between them. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then like we mentioned where that letter falls. So

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Speaker 1: if you want to analyze an A a lower case A,

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Speaker 1: and we should point out to that, apparently you can't

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Speaker 1: analyze upper case letters only. Is that right? You can

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Speaker 1: you can analyze those just against each other though, Okay,

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Speaker 1: upper case and lower case or like they yield nothing.

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Speaker 1: That's right apparently. Um. But let's say you have a letter,

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Speaker 1: a lower case A. You want to find within the

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Speaker 1: document an example of an A at the beginning, one

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Speaker 1: in the middle, one at the end um and see

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Speaker 1: how those compared to each other before you even compare

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Speaker 1: it to the other exemplar. Yeah, like, if you really

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Speaker 1: thorough in detailed stuff, it really is. It's it's like

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Speaker 1: very tedious words to super tedious, which we'll get into

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Speaker 1: in a second exactly how tedious it is. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: the point is, if you are a handwriting analyst, you're

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Speaker 1: not gonna put an A at the beginning of a

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Speaker 1: word next to an A or compare it to an

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Speaker 1: A in the middle of the word. They write two

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Speaker 1: different things as far as you're concerned. Yeah, you get

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Speaker 1: laughed at if you do that. In in class line forms,

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Speaker 1: another thing they look at um, how smooth it is,

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Speaker 1: how dark it is, indicates what kind of pressure you're

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Speaker 1: you're using on the paper? How U Yeah, the speed

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Speaker 1: formatting of course, spacing between letters, spacing between words, um,

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Speaker 1: whether where your margins are. Like they'll give you a

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Speaker 1: blank sheet of paper that's not lined and see you know,

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Speaker 1: if you, like most people, typically the sentence will go

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Speaker 1: down if you don't have a line paper, or what

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Speaker 1: kind of margins you just instinctively use, or if you're

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Speaker 1: like a serial killer and you don't use margins. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's just pretty scribble all over the page. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: just should just let you up right there, right exactly,

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Speaker 1: Like that's you're basically confessing to something horrible. Where do

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Speaker 1: if it is line paper? Where if you make like

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Speaker 1: a lower case why, how does the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: Y or the G or the curse of Z intersect

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Speaker 1: with the line? How far down does it go? How

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Speaker 1: big your loops? Where do you cross your tea? It's

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Speaker 1: like it's mind numbingly details. Do you skip lines? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Do you dot your eyes with little hearts? That kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, the bubble letters? I know some females it's

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Speaker 1: still sort of right that way, not with the with

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Speaker 1: the hearts, but definitely that very distinctive you can. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got a lot of love notes like that, you know,

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Speaker 1: in my day with the little heart eye. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I would right back like the serial killer. Those were

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Speaker 1: my just like words on a single piece that they

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Speaker 1: do like you. It isn't a matter of fact, I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting outside of your house right now, I know what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. Just a big, one long run on sentence. Um. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that they will do, here's one method

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Speaker 1: that they will use is they will actually create tables. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: three tables and all of us what you want. So

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Speaker 1: you make your first table. You start with the letter A,

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Speaker 1: and you go through the the um question documents. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is all on the article by the way,

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Speaker 1: it's even has the little tables and the sample sentence

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Speaker 1: they used is I have your daughter. Yeah. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of creepy, it was, but it was like appropriately creepy.

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Speaker 1: Why couldn't they just put let's play some basketball. I

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Speaker 1: hadn't even thought of that. It seemed like, yeah, of course,

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Speaker 1: I have your daughter. Okay, alright, what that says about?

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Speaker 1: So the three tables? Uh so the first table, what

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Speaker 1: they're gonna do is go through all the question documents

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Speaker 1: and they're going to write start with the letter A.

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Speaker 1: If the letter A is present in the documentary, they're

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Speaker 1: gonna put all the letters that are present in the documents.

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Speaker 1: So for example, I have your daughter, UM has uh right, Well, no,

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Speaker 1: yes it does. But they they they sentence itself doesn't

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Speaker 1: have all the letters of the alphabet. So you're gonna

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Speaker 1: go through and figure out what letters are present in

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Speaker 1: your question document put those down one side, and then

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Speaker 1: you're gonna go through, starting with the letter A, and

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Speaker 1: um find every different letter A. So if there's a

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Speaker 1: letter A that slants to the left, you're gonna put

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Speaker 1: that down next to A in row one. And then

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Speaker 1: if you've come across another A that science the left,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna skip that one because you've already found it.

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Speaker 1: What the point is you're going to create a table

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Speaker 1: of every characteristically different example of a particular letter yea.

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Speaker 1: And they're doing this with digital cameras, right, So in

390
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: the article they did it by hand. They try to

391
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Speaker 1: recreate what the weird letter looked like. But yeah, they're

392
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Speaker 1: going to take a digital photo of just that letter

393
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Speaker 1: and then compile it into a table. That's right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And at the end what they are doing is comparing

395
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Speaker 1: the tables making sure they have a match for each

396
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: letter in the exemplar, right, because they went through the

397
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: question document, then they the exact same thing for the exemplar,

398
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: and they put the two tables together and created a

399
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Speaker 1: third table. And from that third table they should be

400
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: able to see pretty clearly whether um, the person, whether

401
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: the two things were written by the same person. And

402
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 1: so if you're an FBI analyst, you're gonna come up

403
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Speaker 1: with one of um five uh possible outcomes. There's identification,

404
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 1: where you're pretty much putting your career on the line

405
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: or your professional reputation on the line, say this is

406
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: written by the same person. There's may have, which means

407
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: that the similarities outweigh the differences, but you're still not

408
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: a percent sure identification level. Sure, yeah, that's a real

409
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: woo way to go, right. There's no conclusion, which is

410
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: like the similarities and the differences are pretty much the same,

411
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: or um, there's just not enough evidence there or enough

412
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: material to go with. Then there's may not have, which

413
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: is the differences outweigh the similarities, but you're still not sure,

414
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: and then there's a eimination where you're sure that they

415
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: weren't written by the same person, which is probably as

416
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: equally a bolder statement as they were. Yeah, you know,

417
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: I imagine those are few and far between, the identification

418
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: and eliminations in a major case, you know. Yeah. Um,

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00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: all right, So coming up, we have something on forgeries

420
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: and simulation, like if you're trying to sniff someone off

421
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: the gates. But first we have a message break. Okay,

422
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: So um, we're talking about simulation before we broke. And

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Speaker 1: that's like a big part of this is if you

424
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: give and I can't imagine, Like let's say someone like

425
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: an officer picked you up and of course you didn't

426
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: do anything, but they bring you into a room and

427
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: they're like, we we need some handwritting examples. You can

428
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: be freaked out for sure, like how you're writing, and

429
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: you're probably gonna write weird, um, or if you did

430
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: do it, you might try and fool them by writing

431
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: weird And by weird I mean different than you normally, right, yes, um,

432
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: not like he's in strange letters or something. Right, Yeah,

433
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: you're gonna maybe um write a little more slowly or

434
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: just right, like bigger than you do, or smaller than

435
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: you do, or just different. Um. I saw a picture

436
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: of a ransom note, not a ransom note, a stick

437
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: up note, and like it was obviously done with like

438
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: squiggly lines and like words were purposely misspelled. Um, so

439
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: that if they, if anybody ever did analyze the handwriting,

440
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: what they had wouldn't match up to any anyone's normal

441
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: hand that's a good idea. Yeah. So on the front

442
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: end of the crime, you do the different handwriting, that's

443
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: that's not bad. I didn't mean this any would be

444
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: bank robbers, but yes, but after the fact, if they

445
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: have the two things and you try to simulate different writing,

446
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: they're pretty good at trying to determine whether or not

447
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: you've done that. They are. I mean you you can

448
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: completely throw off handwriting analysis sure to where just where

449
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: you get a no conclusion at least right, Um, But

450
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: like you said, handwriting analysts you have ways for they

451
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: have ways of knowing whether you're simulating your handwriting. Yeah,

452
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: and like you said, there'll be more pin lifts. Um,

453
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: definitely be slower and basically they'll they'll root you out.

454
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: Is not just writing naturally right, like at a normal

455
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: speed even right, because you're you're really putting a lot

456
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: of thought into the words you're writing rather than just

457
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: writing like you have nothing to hide exactly. UM. So

458
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: this is all good and well and fine, and it's

459
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,479
Speaker 1: a legitimate field. It's not always allowed in court though, because,

460
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: like you said, it's subjective. Yeah, I want to say,

461
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: and I don't know why I developed an affinity for

462
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: handwriting analysis because I think fingerprinting is b s frankly,

463
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: and I remember saying pretty much that effect in the

464
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: fingerprinting episode. For some reason, handwriting analysis struck me as

465
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: more legit. Yeah, And I don't know why, but it did. UM.

466
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: And so I kind of looked around and found as

467
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: recently as June, they had a major national conference for

468
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: handwriting analysts that was UM. Its aim was to further

469
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: the science and the measurements in the field in uh Gaithersburg, Maryland. Yeah,

470
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: the Measurement Science and Standards and Forensic Handwriting Analysis Conference. UM.

471
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: And I mean it's not a new the it's not

472
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: a new field, and they've subjected it to scientific testing

473
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: like over the years. Like UM, the principle of uniqueness,

474
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: the founding principle of handwriting analysis It's been tested many,

475
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: many times. One of the favorite tests they like to

476
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: do is to get identical twins to provide handwriting samples.

477
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: Same DNA, same environmental factor, same physiology, all of these

478
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: things that affect your handwriting, because I mean, like your

479
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: your handwriting is changed by the fine um motor neurons

480
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: that you have in your in your body. If you're

481
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,959
Speaker 1: an identical twin, you're gonna be similar. You think your

482
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: handwriting would be similar. No handwriting analysts routinely can tell

483
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: the difference between twins penmanship. Wow. Um, So they have

484
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: tested this stuff and they are I guess aware that

485
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: they it's not a fully scientific field, and they're taking

486
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: steps to make it more scientific. Yeah, because they want

487
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: to protect their jobs and be they want it to

488
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: be like at the end of the day, they want

489
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: it to be allowed in court. You know. They don't

490
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: want to be offered for podcast fodder. Oh I imagine.

491
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Also they don't want to put away any innocent people.

492
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: Sure you know. Um, So let's talk about another brilliant plan.

493
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: If you want to be a forger of things, provide

494
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: the both exemplars yourself. Right, this is pretty amazing. And

495
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: this guy had a killer name Conrad. Code you could?

496
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: You could? Joe could Conrad? Could you? I think it's

497
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: Conrade k u j A you all right? Conrade Coja,

498
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: let's call him that. The nineteen eighties, the Couge was

499
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: a supposed collector of Nazi memorabilia. First of all, those

500
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: people freaked me out. You know remember American beauty. Yeah,

501
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: uh so he was a collector of this stuff. And um,

502
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: a German publishing company he approached them and said, you

503
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: know what, I've got sixty handwritten journals written by tar

504
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: Fur himself. Yea, they were found in a plane wreck,

505
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: just found him and they seemed to be genuine. And

506
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: they paid him two point three million dollars. And uh

507
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: this the same company, the German newspaper also owned that

508
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: publishing company. They printed stuff. They said, hey, let's syndicate

509
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: this out. The London Times said sure, we'll write about this.

510
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: But they said, but you know what, we're the London Times.

511
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: Let's get a handwriting analysts chow this stuff out. Three

512
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: of them they had three like high end handwriting analysts

513
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: analyzed this stuff and all three of them said, yep, um,

514
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: the same person wrote these samples, who wrote the diary,

515
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, these are these are Hitler's diaries. Yeah, because

516
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: they got they got the exemplars that were supposedly written

517
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: by Hitler himself said it's the same thing. It was this.

518
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: These are legit, right, So cou Joe walks away with

519
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: cool two point three million in nineteen eighties dollars, no less,

520
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: and the world has sixty previously unknown journals from Adolf Hitler.

521
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: We think within a year it was uncovered as a fraud.

522
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: That's right, thanks to the London Times. Um. They used

523
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: ultra violet light examination and found out that the paper

524
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: wasn't around until a little bit of a problem. Anyone

525
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: that knows Hitler knows that he died in Open your eyes, chuck. Uh.

526
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: And then they did some more for in Success and

527
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: said the ink actually was applied on the paper about

528
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: twelve months ago, within the past year, and he's a fraud.

529
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: And he wrote both sets and I don't know why

530
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: they didn't check. And they said, well, we need some

531
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: real examples of Hitler's writing, and he's like, uh here, no,

532
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: I think that's what they did. He had gotten I

533
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: think he was just that lucky wow that he had

534
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: flooded the market with fake Hitler handwriting, and so that

535
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: the authenticated samples that they used as exemplars just happened

536
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: to be ones that he'd also forged. So it passed

537
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: the handwriting analysis. Handwriting Actually, handwriting analysis came out on

538
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: top in that instance, but it was still a fraud.

539
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: It was still a forgery. So amazing it came out

540
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: on top as a technique, but overall it took kind

541
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: of a hit because it's still failed. Unbelievable yet believable.

542
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: What about John Mark Carr? You remember him? Oh, dude, man,

543
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: And I gotta I gotta admit if there was ever

544
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: a case of judging a book by its cover. When

545
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: I saw that guy, I was like, yep, he did it.

546
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: He's the creepiest guy I've ever seen. He is creepy.

547
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: You got that right, Yeah, But he was creepy for

548
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: another reason, because of course we're talking about the John b. A.

549
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: Ramsey case. He falsely confessed to killing John bin A Ramsey,

550
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: which I think he did it to get a free

551
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: ride from Thailand back to the US, I think so.

552
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: I think he'd like the attention and everything too, but

553
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: I think he just didn't have any money. And wanted

554
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: to get back to the States, so he confessed to

555
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: John Benet's killing. Well, he's living as a trans woman now,

556
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: he is, and apparently trying to UM recruit six year

557
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: old and younger, preferably preferably brunette girls for a sex cult.

558
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: Apparently he's just trying to found a sex cult. And

559
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: I only saw this one article that was on several

560
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: different networks in June of like what was and I

561
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: didn't see anything else after that. I think that is

562
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: very very grown up of you to say, because it

563
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: is hearsay. One one accuser, Yeah, and it was somebody

564
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: who he was formerly close to, a girl he had

565
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: been engaged to UM who was saying she was coming

566
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: forward to try to protect people. But there was no

567
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: follow up, no nothing, So who knows, Chuck. It was

568
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: very good of you. But back to the handwriting part

569
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: of this, he um. They compared the ransom note to

570
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: a couple of exemplars from his past. The Secret Service

571
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: does a lot of this, by the way, and Um.

572
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: One was a high school yearbook that he signed, and

573
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: one was a job application from Thailand and they couldn't

574
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: match it because it was inconclusive because the high school

575
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: year back yearbook was old and apparently in a quote

576
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: artistic writing style quote, So I don't know what that means.

577
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: I guess he did, like you know, in high school,

578
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: you do those like bubble letters. And then the job

579
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: in Thailand he used all upper case letters and they

580
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: couldn't compare that to the ransom note because that was

581
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: both upper and lower. And then the the and A

582
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: obviously sniffed him off the case. And he was not

583
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: the guy. He was just weird. It was an odd duck. Yeah.

584
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: I don't think they still never caught anyone, did they? No,

585
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: they never arrested anybody. Yeah. I think last thing I

586
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: heard was that the case was reopened and they thought

587
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: they had enough evidence for the parents, but they didn't

588
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: or something to indict them. Oh yeah, that was a

589
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: few years back. Yeah, very sad um. And I don't

590
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: see why it was so hard to get these exemplars.

591
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: Is it that tough to find handwriting examples from someone,

592
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: especially if they're not cooperating too well? I guess that's true. Like,

593
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like, what do you have lying around that's

594
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: got your handwriting on it? I got a bunch of

595
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: notebooks and stuff with tons of stuff in there. Well

596
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: then you'd be an easy case. Alright, Well I better

597
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: not kild never kill anyone right anytime, so and keep

598
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: your nose clean. Um. What else you got? Um? I

599
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: think that's about it for me. Well, there's the fish

600
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: system they're they're trying to h bring this into the

601
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: non subjective modern age. The forensic Information system for handwriting.

602
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: That basically they take a large body of handwritten material,

603
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: digitize it, and then plot it is arithmetic and geometric values.

604
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: So basically it'll be a numeric database, sort of like

605
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: a fingerprint database. So instead of just having like this

606
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: big diary and a locker, you have an actual numeric

607
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: value that you can compare it to. Now, and that

608
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: just using computers is like flak jacket from criticism. I mean, really,

609
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: the computers just carrying out program subjectivity, isn't it. Uh yeah,

610
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: probably so, But I mean it's really just a database.

611
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: It's not saying that like any better way of doing things. Um.

612
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: And I just saw this from two thousand nine. Um,

613
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: sort of the same thing. There's in the Journal of

614
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: Applied Cognitive Psychology. They did a test to see if

615
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: people differently when they're lying or not and they do.

616
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they had them right, truthful sentences and lies

617
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: and apparently right differently when you lie, the content of

618
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: the sentence, whether it is a liar truthful, Yeah, changed

619
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: the handwriting. Yeah, wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, so I

620
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: don't I guess I could help with forensics for sure.

621
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: It could act as a sort of secondary lie detector

622
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: at least, right, you could be like I am the kidnapper, right,

623
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: you have them right there, But I mean you couldn't.

624
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: Then it's not for comparisons. If it doesn't work for yeah, well,

625
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: if it doesn't work out for comparison, you have a

626
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: handwritten confession. Pretty cool. And there's no schooling for this,

627
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: by the way, you just really yeah like most of

628
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: their most of this forensic stuff, it's all just like

629
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: training job. Yeah, but there's certification. Well there's no college program, no,

630
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: but I think you still have to become certified. I

631
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: don't think you have to. I think like you can

632
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: advertise in the Internet and just be Joe Schmo then

633
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: writing analyze that kind of thing. But I think, um,

634
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: there is a certification or creditation out there. Okay, it

635
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: says that, um, the training period is a minimum of

636
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: two years of full time training under the tutelage of

637
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: a qualified expert, a wizard. So yeah, forensics, the game continues. Nice. Uh,

638
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: let's see you got anything else. No, we still have

639
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: to cover shadow analysis and smell yeah, smelly people. Yeah. Uh.

640
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about forensics, you should

641
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: type that word into the search bar. It will bring

642
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: up this handwriting analysis um article and a ton of

643
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: other stuff. Uh just typed in, like I said, to

644
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,959
Speaker 1: the search bar how stuff works dot com? And since

645
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: I said search bar, it's time for listener mail. Yeah. Man,

646
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this email from a feminist lesbian. Okay,

647
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: self described guys, your timing is amazing. I'm listening to

648
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: old episodes and I listened to micro Loans yesterday. It's

649
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: amazing how lined up my universe is with you guys

650
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: right now. Um, so I guess she was into micro

651
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: Loans or something. Um, it's a I love you, guys,

652
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: to the point where my mental tape, the dialogue that

653
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: plays in one's head is sometimes even in your voice.

654
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: As a northern feminist and lesbian, I was leary of

655
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: two Southern dudes educating me. But I poo poo, all

656
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: your critics. So she listened to us. She's like, what

657
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: are these bumpkin hate? See, it's gonna teach me. I'm

658
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: a feminist lesbian from the north. She Poopoo's is that

659
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: once you get the hand of your dry wit and humor,

660
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 1: you are the most awesome and epic truth tellers who

661
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 1: have grace, dignity, and a humility about your own mistakes

662
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: and limitations that I find unparalleled. You embrace all people's

663
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: choices and lives, and you are silly to boot. I

664
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: must say that I just learned so much and I

665
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: have fun. Whatever you're talking about relates to my life

666
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: and your excellent teachers. I sit outside by the river

667
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: in the back of my house draw or place you

668
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 1: do go Dodoku, So it's the most difficult word and

669
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: to pronounce it is when if you don't learn it right.

670
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: The first puzzle that game right right with people plank

671
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: you predict what number is gonna go in where it's

672
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: pretty neat. You should try it all right, It's it's challenging.

673
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: Do you like crosswords? I love crosswords. You will like

674
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: this not the exact same thing by any stretch, and

675
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: it definitely includes some some math, but um, you'll like it.

676
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: If you like crosswords, give it a shot. So she

677
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: plays this out by the river and listens to us

678
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: for hours after long days. Uh. In short, everyone needs

679
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: to be nice because I am all knowing and I

680
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: say you are wonderful. Words can hurt your kind decent

681
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: human beings first and foremost, and being in the public

682
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: eye makes people forget that. So they're And that is

683
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: from Karen Shaw and Western Maths. Nice. Thanks a lot,

684
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: Karin Shaw. That was a very very nice letter. Thank you. Yeah,

685
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: like I picture her out there by the river playing

686
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: that sudoku weird game sudoku okay suduko sidokuk. It ends

687
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: with you now it ends with an Oh, no it

688
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: doesn't unless you mispelled it. She spelled it s u

689
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: d u k o suduko. I think it's so doku. Yeah,

690
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: we'll agree to disagree. Uh again, thank you very much

691
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: for that very nice letter. UM, if you want to

692
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: send us a very nice letter or criticism, we we

693
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: have a thick skin after all these years. Um, you

694
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: can tweet to us at s Y s K podcast.

695
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: We will tweet back at you angrily probably and rally

696
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: everybody else against you um. You can join us on

697
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, where Chuck will comment on your post.

698
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: Make you feel bad if you make us feel bad, Right, Chuck,

699
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: he's a master at that. It's good for more on

700
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff

701
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: works dot com