Speaker 1: Pushkin. Johnny Marr is maybe the last in a line
Speaker 1: of acclaimed British guitarists. He's played with tons of bands,
Speaker 1: including most famously, The Smiths. Mar started playing guitar as
Speaker 1: a young teenager growing up in Manchester. When he turned fifteen,
Speaker 1: he dropped out of school and moved to London to
Speaker 1: join the band Sister Ray. A couple of years later,
Speaker 1: he wound up helping to form The Smiths with Morrissey,
Speaker 1: Mike Joyce and Mars's friend and bassist Andy Rourke. Then,
Speaker 1: after The Smiths broke up in eighty seven, he went
Speaker 1: on to collaborate with an array of different musicians and
Speaker 1: playing bands like The Pretenders, The The and even later
Speaker 1: Modest Mouse. In the early adds, Mars started releasing solo material,
Speaker 1: and he's on the brink of releasing a new album
Speaker 1: full of the best songs from his solo career. On
Speaker 1: today's episode, I talked to Johnny Marr about his exciting
Speaker 1: work in the studio with Farrell and on Zimmer. Mar
Speaker 1: also recalls the terror he felt performing live in front
Speaker 1: of massive stadiums full of fans with The Pretenders on
Speaker 1: YouTube's Joshua Tree Tour He also talks about the time
Speaker 1: he bought a Fender Stratocaster with Noel Gallagher from Oasis
Speaker 1: that Stratt had nine pickups and eventually led him to
Speaker 1: write one of the best songs of his solo career.
Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the Digital Age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Ritchman. Here's my conversation with Johnny Marr. It
Speaker 1: seems like a really sort of whirlwind time in your life.
Speaker 1: It must be like a lot of things that are
Speaker 1: connected to you.
Speaker 2: Now, do you know what I've been really looking at
Speaker 2: in hand on her and maybe accept for I don't know,
Speaker 2: a period in my I guess mid thirties or something where,
Speaker 2: you know, for a couple of years I was sort
Speaker 2: of like doing other things. But I feel like I've
Speaker 2: been busy for like forty years or something. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know it sounds crazy, but I'm always I'm kind
Speaker 2: of busy because I'm a workaholic. Well, actually it's a
Speaker 2: bad way of putting it. I'm really passionate about what
Speaker 2: I do. I've been doing the same things as intensely
Speaker 2: as I do now.
Speaker 3: I've been doing that since I was fifteen.
Speaker 2: I left school at fifteen to join a pro band
Speaker 2: with adults at fifteen and then really ever since nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty two, when I've made my first record with the Smiths,
Speaker 2: I just feel like I've never really stopped, you know,
Speaker 2: so I've been obviously I feel very very grateful to
Speaker 2: be to do that. But yeah, I mean, I suppose
Speaker 2: the last big thing I did was the Bond movie
Speaker 2: with an Zimmer. But and this year, really we've got
Speaker 2: a best of coming out. I was on tour with
Speaker 2: the Killers last year and right now I'm just rehearsing
Speaker 2: to go out and.
Speaker 3: Do some more stuff.
Speaker 2: Really, you know, I've not done a solo or best
Speaker 2: of yet before that's about.
Speaker 3: To come out now, And that was that was to
Speaker 3: do with the record coming in.
Speaker 2: The management just kind of went, hey, look, we know
Speaker 2: that you're going to be expect them to go in
Speaker 2: and make another LP, make another album. Well you've only
Speaker 2: just done a double album last year, so just hold
Speaker 2: your horses and let's just it's been ten years since
Speaker 2: you've had this solo band, and let's just put it
Speaker 2: all on the best of and if you if you
Speaker 2: think it's a good listen, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Do you like it? Have you have you sequenced it
Speaker 1: and listened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: I know this might sound a little odd to say,
Speaker 2: but being given the assignment to put a best of
Speaker 2: out when it wasn't driven by me, when it comes
Speaker 2: from someone else, and going oh, okay, right, let me
Speaker 2: look at that, and then getting it all mastered and
Speaker 2: listening to it, you know, because I had to listen
Speaker 2: to the test pressings. Right, So the test presents coming,
Speaker 2: and you know, I've been doing this since I was
Speaker 2: a kid, Right, test presents come.
Speaker 3: I'm always excited about.
Speaker 2: That, like, oh, great white labels, and you put it
Speaker 2: on the turntable and you have to sit and you
Speaker 2: have to listen for any little pops or anything.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I said to the band guys last night I got
Speaker 2: the test presence of them. You know, it's a pretty
Speaker 2: good album, man, it's a good listen, you know, because
Speaker 2: I don't take anything for granted, you know, justin so.
Speaker 3: So please with it.
Speaker 1: It's great. I'd be excited to check that out because
Speaker 1: I've sort of been over the last year just curating,
Speaker 1: oddly enough, just different playlists of things that you're involved in,
Speaker 1: like I don't know, just randomly resequencing Smith's records just
Speaker 1: for fun or like, yeah, I made a playlist of
Speaker 1: stuff that was just stuff that you've played on but
Speaker 1: weren't like bands that you were actually a part of.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 1: And then your last record, the Fever Dreams one through four,
Speaker 1: I mean, just came out. It was like a wealth
Speaker 1: of great material. You know.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 2: I'm glad that that I've done all of that stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean obviously, but I did a couple of tracks
Speaker 2: with Beck, and then I did maybe four or five
Speaker 2: tracks with John Fishanty, and then I popped up on
Speaker 2: records with all these different really cool musicians. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but perchance, Yeah, And that was so well. As I
Speaker 2: was doing it, I was thinking, wow, man, this is
Speaker 2: oh I love this music, and what a cool thing,
Speaker 2: you know. So so like when John vi Shanity, he
Speaker 2: invited me over to when he was working on the
Speaker 2: Imperium and it was like, I've got these tracks, take
Speaker 2: your pick, and he played me a track and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I think I can do something on
Speaker 2: that band and played me another track. Oh, I've got
Speaker 2: an idea for that bank And then you know, a
Speaker 2: couple of days later you kind of go, well, that
Speaker 2: was a nice experience. So I think what I'm saying
Speaker 2: is none of it's planned. It's all this kind of
Speaker 2: I'm going to say it a journey. I've been a
Speaker 2: musician and being very, very fortunate that people who were
Speaker 2: doing cool things have invited me to do cool things
Speaker 2: with them.
Speaker 3: You know, it's never been planned.
Speaker 1: Is it something about you, like you yourself as a person,
Speaker 1: or about your plane, or a bit of both that
Speaker 1: allows you to fit in with so many different kinds
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess so, But I think musicians are very
Speaker 2: welcoming and inclusive types of people. It might be a
Speaker 2: bit cheesy, but I have a certain kind of pride
Speaker 2: in that, not my personal coming about myself, but my
Speaker 2: you know, brothers and sisters of music. You know they
Speaker 2: because let's put it this way, I've been around.
Speaker 3: I don't whether you've ever.
Speaker 2: Been in a room with several actors or in a
Speaker 2: taxi with several comedians, but often there's a bit of
Speaker 2: a competitive vibe. I know it's a generalization, right. I
Speaker 2: know a bunch of great actors, and I know a
Speaker 2: bunch of some great comedians, right, But I've noticed that
Speaker 2: musicians are very You get a couple of musicians together,
Speaker 2: and you go, hey, did you have you ever heard
Speaker 2: this thing that came out in nineteen eighty six?
Speaker 3: Oh man, you're gonna love.
Speaker 2: It, or I really really like this thing, or oh man,
Speaker 2: did you know that he played the drums on this
Speaker 2: record in nineteen sixty five, And there's always this sharing
Speaker 2: kind of think, Well, I'm really typical like that as
Speaker 2: a as a musician, I suppose I'm very enthusiastic.
Speaker 3: If I hear something that I'm into.
Speaker 2: And the people that I've mentioned may Pet Shop Boys
Speaker 2: as well. You know, we had a little bit of
Speaker 2: a tradition for a while there where they would always
Speaker 2: get me to do the B sides of their singles.
Speaker 2: They were like, well, okay, we've got this this electro
Speaker 2: pop and the B side. Usually it'd be like this,
Speaker 2: the B side is slightly experimental, and it'd be interesting
Speaker 2: to put a guitar on it, which in Pet Shop
Speaker 2: Boys land is being experimental, which and then and they go, okay, well,
Speaker 2: Johnny'll do it. And I'm the guy for that because
Speaker 2: I love them, and so I've got to be on
Speaker 2: more Pet Shop Boys records than any other musician. I
Speaker 2: pop up and do all the ones where they go listen,
Speaker 2: We've got this guitar song. You know, I'm very proud
Speaker 2: of that. So to answer your question, it's a partly
Speaker 2: to do with my personality being very, very typical kind
Speaker 2: of musician. That means I will stay in the studio
Speaker 2: either listening to stories or telling stories till really till
Speaker 2: three am or whatever it used to be seven am.
Speaker 3: But these days are a little bit more moderate.
Speaker 2: And the other thing is, I guess the second thing
Speaker 2: you mentioned, I like to play guitar that I think
Speaker 2: is appropriate to whatever the song is. So if all
Speaker 2: that's required is, like recently on No Gallagher stuff, for instance,
Speaker 2: I'm not going in there going right okay by bar eight,
Speaker 2: you really need to know that I'm on it.
Speaker 3: I just kind of go, what's the song? And I
Speaker 3: sort of.
Speaker 2: Think in that regard, I'm not really beyond thinking like
Speaker 2: a session musician.
Speaker 3: I don't have to really be this big deal on it,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's the thing I really enjoy about your playing in
Speaker 1: your career is there is this bit of you that
Speaker 1: almost approaches music the way like a jazz musician did
Speaker 1: in the fifties or sixties, like Herbie Hancock can put out,
Speaker 1: you know, peer in Islands, and then also just go
Speaker 1: play on like a great Lee Morgan record, and he
Speaker 1: puts as much of his heart and soul into that
Speaker 1: side man work quote unquote, you can tell as he
Speaker 1: seem to have done his own records. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's an absolute honor because I think
Speaker 2: that sort of feels about right. I think when you
Speaker 2: were talking then, I was thinking paradoxically, people who say
Speaker 2: they don't like jazz or people who don't like jazz,
Speaker 2: I think it's about just people blowing. But to me,
Speaker 2: one of the best things about jazz musicians is to
Speaker 2: be a good jazz musician, you have to listen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to listen to what everybody else is doing.
Speaker 2: It's a conversation and you know you can do that
Speaker 2: in indie rock again, come back to say, the most
Speaker 2: recent thing that I've done with somebody else with no
Speaker 2: Gallagher stuff. I want to make the record really good,
Speaker 2: you know. So there's bits where you lay out, and
Speaker 2: then there's bits when you play just textual stuff, and
Speaker 2: then there's bits where you come in with the riff.
Speaker 2: And ultimately it's his record and his vision, and he
Speaker 2: trusts me to do because he knows that I'm all
Speaker 2: about the big picture and not about me just stepping
Speaker 2: all over it other times.
Speaker 3: Though, you know, I did a record with.
Speaker 2: The Australian project Avalanches a few years ago with me
Speaker 2: and MGMs were on there. Yeah, me and MGMT did
Speaker 2: a song with them, and that was that was really
Speaker 2: cool because they had this idea for this riff and
Speaker 2: I said, okay, well what about if I just develop it?
Speaker 2: And then what I did was sort of featured and
Speaker 2: that kind of floated through the track.
Speaker 3: So it's whatever's appropriate. Really.
Speaker 2: I remember when I was learning, maybe twelve thirteen something,
Speaker 2: so I sort of have been in the mid seventies just.
Speaker 3: For punk broke out.
Speaker 2: Back then, there wasn't you know, you wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to go in Barnes and Noble or Waterstones in England
Speaker 2: and see like shelves and shelves of books about anybody.
Speaker 3: You know. I'm sure Justin Bieber has got a whole
Speaker 3: wall for but whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but back then that wasn't a thing, right, So
Speaker 2: I would read the music press and I would go
Speaker 2: into the library and if a book did appear about
Speaker 2: whoever it was, I didn't if it caught my interest.
Speaker 2: I would read it or just stand in the bookstore
Speaker 2: and read it. There's only a few things around. I
Speaker 2: remember there's one about Pete Sounds, and there was a
Speaker 2: Miles Davis one, and.
Speaker 3: There was led Zeppelin monster stuff.
Speaker 2: But anyway, when you start off, if you're really obsessive,
Speaker 2: as I was, some bits of information really stick to you.
Speaker 2: And there was it was either Keith Richards or John Lennon,
Speaker 2: I think, was saying that the most important part of
Speaker 2: being a guitar player is being able to play rhythm.
Speaker 2: And to a twelve year old boy whose poles are
Speaker 2: all going, you know, trying to play all this shreddy
Speaker 2: stuff or whatever, when I read that information, I was
Speaker 2: kind of like, huh, it sounded really noble to me.
Speaker 2: And this thing of underpinning the band and having the
Speaker 2: groove down and all of that. And then obviously as
Speaker 2: time went on and I got into people like Keith
Speaker 2: Richards or or obviously Nol Rodgers and people like that,
Speaker 2: and you know, Jimmy Nolan who plays with James Brown
Speaker 2: and just any number of really great rhythm players. That's
Speaker 2: just one of the chapters that you need to have
Speaker 2: got through, you know, what I mean, it's just part
Speaker 2: of being a guitar player.
Speaker 3: I think. I just think it's really cool to just
Speaker 3: like be appropriate to the song.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is your phone just open? You just say, people
Speaker 1: just know you're ready to play all these.
Speaker 2: Pretty Yeah, I know pretty much because it's been that
Speaker 2: way for years. I mean a lot, I know a
Speaker 2: lot of people. I mean, I'm always I'm never not
Speaker 2: available for Brian Ferry because I've been working with Brian
Speaker 2: now since nineteen eighties eighty seven, and Brian's always writing,
Speaker 2: and he's always he's always making tracks. He's always got
Speaker 2: tracks upon the go and he comes back to them
Speaker 2: and all this sort of stuff. So that's been an
Speaker 2: ongoing thing for years. But then since I guess twenty ten,
Speaker 2: Hands Zimmer. If Hands wants something doing, even if it's
Speaker 2: something on the on the choiet, just you know, you
Speaker 2: need a little bit of this or I'll do that.
Speaker 1: What an incredible relationship, I mean, musical relationship you guys
Speaker 1: have built.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really taught me a lot. I think with Hands,
Speaker 2: he's he's got the soul of a rock musician. And
Speaker 2: if you go to his shows, which are now like
Speaker 2: three hours long, and it's some of the pieces that
Speaker 2: he's doing in this current show, which actually my son
Speaker 2: plays plays in that.
Speaker 3: I've been I've been upgraded to the mar.
Speaker 2: Version two two point zero, so my son plays in that.
Speaker 2: But there are some moments in that show that it
Speaker 2: makes Cashmere sound like a boy band. It's wow, amazingly
Speaker 2: orchestrated rock music.
Speaker 3: At the heart of it is rock music.
Speaker 2: And you know, with me and hands, you know, once
Speaker 2: we get talking about music and talking about melotrons and
Speaker 2: fair lights or late sixties strats or what you know,
Speaker 2: or Tangerine dream or whatever next thing, we look at
Speaker 2: our watch and it's you know, it's Quartpus three in
Speaker 2: the am, you know, and we just sit around his
Speaker 2: studios listening to music, playing music or talking about music.
Speaker 2: It's so that's what my pals are like. My friends
Speaker 2: are the same as me, you know, we're Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: it's what I dreamed of when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: For Shanty's same kind of character being around John Frushanti,
Speaker 1: the amount of guitar players he can reference in a
Speaker 1: given moment, and he feels like he's able to synthesize
Speaker 1: all of these disparate you know, he's almost like a
Speaker 1: computer to me, Like talk about AI, It's like, how
Speaker 1: is he pulling from all that at once? That's it's insane.
Speaker 2: Well, it's well, there's a couple of things that come
Speaker 2: to mind when you say that. I think you're absolutely
Speaker 2: right about John and there's a few other people I
Speaker 2: know like that. I think people who are great, whoever
Speaker 2: they are. But in my field it's musicians. They are experts,
Speaker 2: absolute experts. And that might sound obvious, but there's this
Speaker 2: famous story about when Bob Marley first went into record
Speaker 2: and it was like some little four track and he
Speaker 2: was like sixteen or seventeen or something. I think it
Speaker 2: was with Cocksol or something. And if you hear enough
Speaker 2: about those stories, you hear you know what. He was
Speaker 2: kind of a pain in the ass because he would
Speaker 2: be like, the backing vocals are too loud, back in
Speaker 2: volks are too loud. Because he'd studied the Coasters, and
Speaker 2: he'd studied the Drifters, and he'd studied Curtis Mayfel and
Speaker 2: the Impressions, so he knew how the backing vocals on those.
Speaker 2: This is when he was a kid, right, But you
Speaker 2: could go right across in sports, I'm sure in business too,
Speaker 2: but people who are great are real experts. I guess
Speaker 2: it's not a surprise because it's your passion.
Speaker 1: So become obcessive, You've become obsessive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because
Speaker 1: you love.
Speaker 3: It, that's right, you know.
Speaker 2: And then the second thing you're talking about there, like
Speaker 2: with Johnny's and other people like that, are there's a
Speaker 2: lot of musicians like this. They take all of these
Speaker 2: different elements only to them make sense and then it
Speaker 2: comes out. But when you hear it, he goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: it sounds like that. So for example, in my case,
Speaker 2: like for forty years, I didn't really do a lot
Speaker 2: of interviews in the early Smith's days, but when I
Speaker 2: was asked about guitar playing, when I had to really
Speaker 2: nail it down, I was like, well, now Rogers, Bert
Speaker 2: Jansch and James Williamson from the studios, Now that's yeah,
Speaker 2: but that's a pretty boat after anyone who's followed me
Speaker 2: for years and years knows that they're my like they're
Speaker 2: my tree.
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously I love a lot, you know, I
Speaker 3: love what Roy Gallagher was doing. I love what you know.
Speaker 2: John my Geeock from the band Cheese and Will Sergeant
Speaker 2: from the Bunny Men. I mean there's hundreds. I mean
Speaker 2: I could stay here just giving a list and lists
Speaker 2: of amazing guitar players. Obviously, but at first people would
Speaker 2: were like, huh, come again, what you like now Rogers
Speaker 2: I influenced the Smith's. But over time, now people know
Speaker 2: that some of these songs like that, I go, well,
Speaker 2: listen to the Boy, listen to the second verse in
Speaker 2: The Boy with the Thorn in his Side, and or
Speaker 2: there's a famous story about when I wrote Handy Glove.
Speaker 2: It just started out as a sheet riff, so point
Speaker 2: being that that made total sense to me. But you
Speaker 2: put it all through a funnel, comes in through your
Speaker 2: own mind, and then it comes out and people go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: it sounds like Johnny mar right. But to me, if
Speaker 2: I told you what I was thinking of when I
Speaker 2: was trying to come up with some of these, if
Speaker 2: you go.
Speaker 1: What, I'm so glad that you mentioned James Williamson too, though,
Speaker 1: because as much as I love the Ashley on Brown
Speaker 1: Ashton and the Ashton Brothers, James Williamson man like some
Speaker 1: of those. I feel like some of that music with
Speaker 1: James gets discounted. That Kill City record. Yeah, Iggy is
Speaker 1: just one. I mean, I don't know, man, I go
Speaker 1: to that record all the time because it just blows
Speaker 1: me away.
Speaker 2: Well, it's amazing because when I first met Noel Gallagher,
Speaker 2: he was a fairly he was young. No, it would
Speaker 2: have been about maybe twenty or something nineteen. I was
Speaker 2: pretty young myself, maybe twenty six, twenty seven, but the
Speaker 2: first time he came to my house, that was the
Speaker 2: record I gave it. Wasn't aware of it, But I
Speaker 2: don't know whether this is so what I got from
Speaker 2: James Willimson. I had thought I was playing when I
Speaker 2: was about fifteen, and it was something like and a
Speaker 2: friend of mine, Billy Duffiy, went on it being the call.
Speaker 2: He said to me, that sounds like gimme Danger, and
Speaker 2: I was like, what's that. I've never heard a gimme danger?
Speaker 2: And anyway, so a long story, but I tracked down
Speaker 2: raw Power. So when I heard that, I went, well,
Speaker 2: that sounds like the way I'm trying to play, so
Speaker 2: you know, the truth be told. I was a bit
Speaker 2: pissed that someone had already beat me to this, this new.
Speaker 3: Song I was writing. So James is a massive influence
Speaker 3: on me.
Speaker 2: Massive. When I heard that, I just kind of went,
Speaker 2: you're on the right path. You know you're doing the
Speaker 2: right thing. And then with say, just for an illustration,
Speaker 2: seeing as I don't always do this, but just guitar,
Speaker 2: I don't make can hear his probably? But the Smith's
Speaker 2: song Handing Glove, well that started off when I first
Speaker 2: started playing.
Speaker 3: It, it went, which is me trying to be cheek.
Speaker 2: It was my girlfriend said make it sound more like Iggy,
Speaker 2: so I did and I ended up sounding like that.
Speaker 3: But that and that was the first Smith single.
Speaker 2: But when we came out no One, I believe when
Speaker 2: I said I was now Rogers was a huge influence
Speaker 2: on me, you know. So you know that's what musicians
Speaker 2: are like though, aren't they? And I think maybe creative
Speaker 2: people as well. Sometimes you're trying to copy your heroes
Speaker 2: and your limitations kind of get I mean, I'm not
Speaker 2: the first person I said this, but your limitations just
Speaker 2: kind of put a stamp on what you can and
Speaker 2: can't do.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break and then come back
Speaker 1: with more of my interview with Johnny Marr. We're back
Speaker 1: with more from Johnny Marr. How much in terms of
Speaker 1: just raw skill do you feel like you've developed from
Speaker 1: let's say nineteen eighty to now.
Speaker 3: Well, I took it really seriously. I started.
Speaker 2: My parents to this day still really their music freaks.
Speaker 2: So I grew up in a house of Irish parents
Speaker 2: who treated music like it was a religion.
Speaker 3: So if I like someone, they really really really like them.
Speaker 2: And so I want to see my parents, who are
Speaker 2: in their eighties now, and my dad was showing me
Speaker 2: this country music podcast that he just got into and
Speaker 2: they're still didn't it to this day. My mother she's
Speaker 2: super into like watching new country singers and singer songwriters
Speaker 2: on YouTube.
Speaker 3: So they were really young.
Speaker 2: When I was a kid, So I was brought up
Speaker 2: around all these young Irish adults, your teenagers, really playing music.
Speaker 2: So to answer your question, what happened was I just
Speaker 2: got really obsessed with a guitar. I got my first
Speaker 2: proper one that I could play chords on when I
Speaker 2: was about eight or nine, and then I started just
Speaker 2: trying to play the records on the radio like a
Speaker 2: lot of people. So I started playing, you know, like
Speaker 2: getting my own little tunes together and stuff when I
Speaker 2: was about nine or ten, and then enrolling my friends
Speaker 2: to be these little bands, and I, you know, i'd write.
Speaker 3: I'd do just like t Rex ripoffs.
Speaker 2: Really, all my songs were just like t Rex copies.
Speaker 2: And then I just had a sort of natural knack
Speaker 2: to be out of place to kind of riffs.
Speaker 3: But if i'd have.
Speaker 2: Been the sort of person who was, you know, just
Speaker 2: in a copy of other people and not being a songwriter,
Speaker 2: you know, I probably would have been shredding away forever.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's not really my thing that really
Speaker 2: I wanted to sort of I went to have my
Speaker 2: own band with my own sound, you know, so.
Speaker 3: The skill I have a master. I don't know what
Speaker 3: is answering your question.
Speaker 2: But coming back to hanns Zimmer, what I did on
Speaker 2: Inception was pretty simple. But when it came to actually
Speaker 2: playing it on stage with an orchestra, like sixty pieces
Speaker 2: on stage with a choir and all of that stuff,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have ever been able to do that when
Speaker 2: I was in my twenties. I wouldn't have been able
Speaker 2: to do it in my thirties either, really, and I
Speaker 2: might not have even come up with that really simple part.
Speaker 3: I think when you get older, you.
Speaker 2: Kind of know what you're about, and it's about what
Speaker 2: I came up with was kind of right for the movie,
Speaker 2: and I might not have ever been able to do
Speaker 2: that when I was young.
Speaker 3: But I practice every day.
Speaker 2: I go through periods where I just practice practice, and
Speaker 2: then I play absent mindedly when i'm you know, around
Speaker 2: the house.
Speaker 3: And watching TV.
Speaker 2: But I'm going through another phase now where I'll come
Speaker 2: in this little studio here and put the headphones on
Speaker 2: and and just play and play and try and get
Speaker 2: you know, try and get my chops. So maybe that's
Speaker 2: because I'm going out live or I don't know why,
Speaker 2: but that connects me to the kidd I was when
Speaker 2: I was eleven or twelve.
Speaker 3: Honestly, it's got nothing to do with career.
Speaker 2: There's got nothing to do with the Smith's, got nothing
Speaker 2: to do with like you know, Johnny Mara, or nothing
Speaker 2: to do with business or anything.
Speaker 3: It's because that was my first love. When I was
Speaker 3: ten year eleven.
Speaker 2: I used to peel off from when kids were playing
Speaker 2: football or we were whatever, we were climbing trees or whatever.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I would just go and disappear and I'd go
Speaker 2: into my room on my own and just play for
Speaker 2: a couple of hours, not even plugged in. And I
Speaker 2: make all these discoveries and moving chord shapes around. And
Speaker 2: you know what, man, I'm so grateful that I still
Speaker 2: want to do that. Yeah, for fun. It's like it's
Speaker 2: my hobby.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's the dream for any guitar player to have a
Speaker 1: setup just like you have in Spiel to do that
Speaker 1: all day.
Speaker 3: That's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, musician.
Speaker 1: And you know whatever respective instrument is, like, that's the dream.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then when it comes time to do an album
Speaker 2: sometimes I have to I know myself well enough that
Speaker 2: I have to think about the guitar in a different way. Man,
Speaker 2: if you give me an if you give me three
Speaker 2: more lifetimes, okay, I'd love to be John McLaughlin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, ah, but.
Speaker 3: I'm also quite happy.
Speaker 2: But I'm also really happy having been the guitar player
Speaker 2: in Modest Mouse for a few years.
Speaker 3: That's fine by me.
Speaker 1: That was incredible work, man, incredible record.
Speaker 2: That was because I was in a situation with amazing chemistry.
Speaker 3: There was a.
Speaker 2: Moment when we were in Mississippi and we were recording
Speaker 2: the recording. It's one of those times it was like
Speaker 2: maybe what the four o'clock in the afternoon, We've been
Speaker 2: trying to get the backing track down to some song
Speaker 2: on week three or whatever, and I was just stood
Speaker 2: there and then I just had a moment of present
Speaker 2: moment awareness, as you know, as it's called, where I
Speaker 2: just looked around and I went the chemistry in this
Speaker 2: room with these bunch of people is really really special.
Speaker 2: This particular bunch of people right now is not just
Speaker 2: a good vibe, but it's really unusual.
Speaker 3: Because one we had two drummers in that band.
Speaker 2: One drummer was his thing was like he might have
Speaker 2: been like, Okay, on this track, I hear pair Ubu,
Speaker 2: or I hear public image, public Image, or r I
Speaker 2: hear Stuart Copeland, So Joe plummerould be doing that. And
Speaker 2: then Jerey Mike Green, who passed away just only a
Speaker 2: few months ago, he was the other drummer, and he
Speaker 2: would have been going in his head, oh, this is
Speaker 2: like fellow cootie, or this is like a rave or
Speaker 2: so yeah, there are.
Speaker 3: Two drummers like that. And then the player Eric Judy.
Speaker 2: He was always writing these like little tunes on either
Speaker 2: accordion at that time, or he was teaching him Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was teaching himself the acordion, teach himself the flute.
Speaker 2: And he had some little riff that he'd be playing
Speaker 2: on the flute, and then he just go, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: just trying to do that on the base. So yeah,
Speaker 2: these really unusual, cool, almost dugby basslines. And then the
Speaker 2: other guy in the band, he's a real utility guy,
Speaker 2: and he might have been doing something on a pedal
Speaker 2: steel or his mind was somewhere else. And then Isaac's
Speaker 2: got his amazing multi layered lyrical agenda that you know
Speaker 2: is coming from all different places. And then I got
Speaker 2: my thing that I was like when I got out
Speaker 2: of bed that day or that week, I was going,
Speaker 2: this is what I want my this is what I
Speaker 2: want to bring to this outfit, whatever agenda I've got,
Speaker 2: and it all fit, it all just fitted together.
Speaker 1: Did you have to think through how you might blend
Speaker 1: with this, because it seems like everyone felt like they
Speaker 1: had their thing and you're kind of getting put into it.
Speaker 1: Did it take your second to figure out, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is what I want to bring or was it kinda
Speaker 1: just luckily instantaneous.
Speaker 2: No, No, I conceptualized it, which I don't mean to
Speaker 2: sound very dry or contrived, even though no, I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed going, what's my role here? How can I be
Speaker 2: really useful and bring something melodic, catchy technical. It was
Speaker 2: a little like Ocean six, and I happened to be
Speaker 2: the kind of British bomb disposal expert or the safe cracker.
Speaker 3: I was like the safer Yeah. No, I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, I can't just put my head down
Speaker 2: and go one, two, three, four and just play. I
Speaker 2: really really enjoyed devising all these parts, and on that
Speaker 2: record we were dead for anyone who's interested. Usually I'm
Speaker 2: doing all the stuff on the left and Isaac's doing
Speaker 2: the stuff on the right, and we this might be
Speaker 2: getting a bit too music. But when we were coming
Speaker 2: up with all those songs and those parts, we were
Speaker 2: in this attic in Portland, and sometimes Isaac and the
Speaker 2: way I started to think about it, it was like, you know,
Speaker 2: two racing car drivers that were on the same team,
Speaker 2: you know, like sometimes that McLaren and stuff the same team,
Speaker 2: and we're both going around this track and then sometimes
Speaker 2: it's like no after you, no after you, after you,
Speaker 2: And occasionally we literally physically crashed into each other because
Speaker 2: we were stood either back to back or next to
Speaker 2: each other in this kind of little space and it
Speaker 2: was really hot, and we're up there and we've been
Speaker 2: out there for hours, and sometimes we'd be a bit
Speaker 2: buzzed and I'm really we really listening to each other
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to Then I'll just jump up the
Speaker 2: octave and then he plays something and I'd go, I'll
Speaker 2: get down there, and literally we sometimes would bang into
Speaker 2: each other, and I thought that was really cool.
Speaker 1: Wow, had you had that level of chemistry before, like
Speaker 1: that level of intense.
Speaker 2: In a different way, yeah, in the but it was
Speaker 2: a different thing with all the bands that I've actually
Speaker 2: been a band member of, I think in a certain
Speaker 2: kind of intensity and a sort of belief in that
Speaker 2: even even without my guitar, and I think I bring
Speaker 2: a sort of belief in the mission because I think
Speaker 2: that's very useful in a band.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm all in. I think people realize that now.
Speaker 2: It used to frustrate me when I was younger, when
Speaker 2: the Precious report it, because you know, when I was young,
Speaker 2: guys to be a little oh, it looks like I'm
Speaker 2: just bailing.
Speaker 3: I'm leaving this band and I'm leaving that band.
Speaker 2: But after all these years, now I think people realize
Speaker 2: that it's anyone who's interested.
Speaker 3: It's probably the reverse.
Speaker 2: You know, like when I if I join a band,
Speaker 2: I'm really in and my family and my family moved
Speaker 2: to Portland. Or when I was in the cribs, you know,
Speaker 2: I got in the van and I played all the shows,
Speaker 2: and you know, I don't I don't expect any other
Speaker 2: kind of separate treatment. I really get get in because
Speaker 2: it's the way I was when I was fifteen in bands.
Speaker 3: It's no different that it's so cool.
Speaker 1: Was it because of that level of chemistry that you
Speaker 1: realize I'm part of the band? Or was it already
Speaker 1: sort of decided you're sort of in for the ride
Speaker 1: at this point?
Speaker 3: Now? Do you know what?
Speaker 2: The very first night we got together, Isaac and I
Speaker 2: wrote that the song that with that single dashboard became
Speaker 2: the single. And then I woke up really jet like
Speaker 2: that about whatever four o'clock in the morning because I'd
Speaker 2: only got in from England the day before, and.
Speaker 3: I woke up on a can of was like, where
Speaker 3: am I? Oh, I'm in a hotel in Portland.
Speaker 2: Did we just write like a really cool cool song
Speaker 2: with this guy? In fact, we wrote two songs that night.
Speaker 2: We wrote another one called we've got everything. That was
Speaker 2: me and him, and then, frankly, because Maddy's Mouth had
Speaker 2: paid for this English guitar player to come over for
Speaker 2: ten days, they had to kind of get to rehearsal
Speaker 2: for noon because you know, they've paid for my flight.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of like a little bit like, all right, everybody,
Speaker 2: you know, you know the ringers here or whatever. We
Speaker 2: better get we better get here, right. But quite cleverly
Speaker 2: Isaac had done it so a couple of members would join.
Speaker 2: Each day we'd come, Me and the would feel each
Speaker 2: other out. So as the days went on, with each
Speaker 2: couple of people that arrived, and we would jam and
Speaker 2: get a new song, and jam and get a new song.
Speaker 2: Very quickly, I was just like, I like these guys,
Speaker 2: they like me. There's such a positive feeling. Everyone's so enthusiastic.
Speaker 2: Something's really happening here. And I formed a manager and
Speaker 2: I said, listen, I'm suppose to be flying back on
Speaker 2: Wednesday or whatever. I'm going to stay. I'm going to
Speaker 2: stay for a few weeks. And I fell in love
Speaker 2: with Portland the city. This was two thousand and five.
Speaker 2: So to answer your question, by the time you get
Speaker 2: that sort of brotherhood going in a band and you're
Speaker 2: all really excited, and also you're playing together these long hours,
Speaker 2: you know, six seven hours, and you've got a song
Speaker 2: and you want to fix it the next day, and
Speaker 2: you're working on this thing. It was that simple. It
Speaker 2: just would have been really weird to bail.
Speaker 1: Yeah, ten days an out after building net.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then that turned into two weeks and then
Speaker 2: three weeks, and then we're all talking excitedly about, Oh man,
Speaker 2: are you're going to be greatful?
Speaker 3: You did some gigs and I was like, wow.
Speaker 2: And the key thing is I really start to i've
Speaker 2: done this with a few projects. I start to really
Speaker 2: care about the songs we're making. I really really care
Speaker 2: about them, even if I haven't written, like in the
Speaker 2: the you know, my relationship with Matt Johnson, I really
Speaker 2: believed in what he was doing and some songs, you know,
Speaker 2: we would make these backing tracks and he'd be like,
Speaker 2: you know, soul searching about the lyrics and this isn't
Speaker 2: right and that isn't right. And I felt like I
Speaker 2: was going through all of that with him, you know.
Speaker 2: And we did this album Dusking in ninety two. But
Speaker 2: that's what I mean about being all in. You know,
Speaker 2: people don't really know that about about me. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm twenty four to seven. If I'm in a band, how.
Speaker 1: Does that translate to when you're when you're leading your
Speaker 1: own group.
Speaker 2: It's very different with my own band because it's a
Speaker 2: different scenario. With my band, they're there, we've had we've
Speaker 2: been together now ten years, the same lineup. We all
Speaker 2: live in the same postcode pretty much, but we all, hey, look,
Speaker 2: we all live within ten miles of each other, which
Speaker 2: is kind of unusual for guys of our age. I've
Speaker 2: been in bands where people live in different cities, in
Speaker 2: different countries.
Speaker 3: That was a very deliberate thing.
Speaker 2: When I came back from Portland, I moved to Manchester,
Speaker 2: not because it's my hometown. I moved here because it's
Speaker 2: a really great place to run a group, and I
Speaker 2: knew these musicians and I wanted for us to all
Speaker 2: I wanted to be at a call a rehearsal for
Speaker 2: tomorrow night and we all be able to get there.
Speaker 2: Someone doesn't have to get on a train or a plane, right. So,
Speaker 2: But why it's different in my band is I write
Speaker 2: songs and then I bring them to the band and
Speaker 2: they learn them, and we learn them up and I
Speaker 2: kind of run it and that's the way they like it,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're really very much a group.
Speaker 2: But all the torturous I guess, the torturous process where
Speaker 2: the singer, which is me in this case, is soul
Speaker 2: searching about lyrics and all that. My guys just lead
Speaker 2: me to it and they say, look, give me a
Speaker 2: call when you've got the thing done.
Speaker 3: Man, the bastards. So in a way, I suppose.
Speaker 2: In my experience my band when we first got together,
Speaker 2: the closest that i'd seen. It's a bit It's like
Speaker 2: I have a sort of Beck's band. We kind of
Speaker 2: when we started, we kind of went that's kind of
Speaker 2: the yardstick for the kind of music, like a British
Speaker 2: version of that really oh cool.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, Like when you go and
Speaker 3: see Beck.
Speaker 2: It was like really tight and the tempos were usually
Speaker 2: the tempos were up, and the drummers drums were really snappy,
Speaker 2: and he was a leader. But they were also a band,
Speaker 2: you know, but you knew the guy was going to
Speaker 2: have a good band. I kind of decided with my
Speaker 2: band that that's a way I wanted is to be
Speaker 2: really a bit like Beck's band.
Speaker 1: Well, what makes Manchester a great place to sort of
Speaker 1: run a band out of?
Speaker 2: Well, what Seattle was to La in the nineties, Manchester
Speaker 2: is that to London, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: So where being a musician's a little easier in Manchester's
Speaker 2: now like well books like Seattle is very there's a
Speaker 2: lot of money in it. It's a second city, so
Speaker 2: so London. If you're a musician, okay, and you've got
Speaker 2: to get rehearsal, it takes you twice a length of
Speaker 2: time to get to rehearsal space as it does in Manchester.
Speaker 2: People are usually am I love London and there all
Speaker 2: the time, but musicians have to live quite a long
Speaker 2: way out of town because it's really expensive to have
Speaker 2: apartments there and all of this sort of stuff. Manchester
Speaker 2: is a little bit more, is a little more like Seattle.
Speaker 2: And you know, like Seattle, it had a big movement.
Speaker 2: It rains a lot like Seattle, so it's an indoor culture.
Speaker 2: There's a whole load of things, you know, just to
Speaker 2: historically make Manchester really great to run to run, well,
Speaker 2: there's a history here as well. So for me in
Speaker 2: my generation, I grew up knowing like, well, the Buzzcocks
Speaker 2: did it, okay, I mean yeah, Buzzcocks, I mean they
Speaker 2: were just like gods to my generation. Buzzcocks proved that
Speaker 2: you didn't have to live in the capital, that you
Speaker 2: could live in the provinces and make great, really cool music.
Speaker 2: Because before that it was just it was all about London, London, London.
Speaker 2: All these bands it was either London and La really
Speaker 2: London La. So you've got a heritage. And then so
Speaker 2: because Buzzcox did it, Smith's raided to do it, and
Speaker 2: the Fall and then because a New Order and Joy
Speaker 2: Division and because the Smiths and Joy Vision and New
Speaker 2: Order did it, then Happy Mondays and Stone Roses knew
Speaker 2: they could do it. And then because they could saw that,
Speaker 2: you know, they did it, then Oasis saw that they
Speaker 2: could do it, and so on. Youngsters know that you
Speaker 2: can be a Manchester band, you know. And so that
Speaker 2: goes back, that goes right back to the seventies now
Speaker 2: with Buzzcocks.
Speaker 3: So having that in.
Speaker 2: The air and knowing that it's a musical town is
Speaker 2: a good place to sort of grow up around when
Speaker 2: you're a fledging musician. But really it goes way back
Speaker 2: historically to like the eighteen sixties eighteen seventies when Manchester
Speaker 2: was literally the industrial capital of the world and the
Speaker 2: Industrial Revolution and all the immigrants came so from really everywhere,
Speaker 2: Eastern Europe and the Caribbean and West Indies and Ireland
Speaker 2: in my case, and all of this business. So there's
Speaker 2: it's a real melting pot Manchester of working class immigrants
Speaker 2: and they all brought their own cultures and their own
Speaker 2: need for entertainment. So a lot of comedians, Jewish comedians
Speaker 2: came out here. A lot of people came from Eastern Europe.
Speaker 2: In my case, you know, a lot of my family
Speaker 2: they moved over in the early sixties and they came
Speaker 2: over to work in construction and building.
Speaker 3: The roads and all of this stuff.
Speaker 2: The Irish and my parents went to all the Irish
Speaker 2: clubs and they would see all the show bands, and
Speaker 2: me and my sister would go sometimes to these places
Speaker 2: in the afternoon where my dad was a booker for
Speaker 2: these bands, and so we grew up around.
Speaker 1: Your dad booked bands, Yeah he did, you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was in the seventies. Me and my
Speaker 3: sister would be there.
Speaker 2: We'd be giving like soda and just loads of those sugar,
Speaker 2: and I'd sit there and I'd watch these cabaret singers
Speaker 2: and they'd be their vocal their microphones would be going
Speaker 2: into a space echo or a tape echo Watkins copycat,
Speaker 2: and there'd be an organ player and a drummer and
Speaker 2: if I was looking at the big guitar player and
Speaker 2: they'd be playing all these kind of seventy songs and
Speaker 2: I thought that was amazing. I just watched these being
Speaker 2: my sister, watched these bands be like, holy shit, this
Speaker 2: is great. And sometimes I'd go, no, they're not too good, Dad,
Speaker 2: Now they're not too good. But just seeing the amplifiers
Speaker 2: and the electric guitars and all that, I would have
Speaker 2: been like nine or ten.
Speaker 3: I thought that was magic. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: So your dad did construction and then somehow got into
Speaker 1: booking bead.
Speaker 2: What was that, Well, that was to do with the
Speaker 2: Catholic That was to do with the Catholic Church because
Speaker 2: he was numb. So he's a working class Irish guys
Speaker 2: are saying he'd be laid pipes, he dug holes in
Speaker 2: the road and my dad, they're very proud of it.
Speaker 2: But to do with the Catholic Church, big Irish thing.
Speaker 2: They would have bands on on a Friday, a Friday
Speaker 2: and a Saturday night, and all these bands would go
Speaker 2: an audition in these bars or these pubs, usually on
Speaker 2: a Sunday afternoon. And all of these used to call
Speaker 2: themselves agents. But all these people who could say, hey, listen,
Speaker 2: come and play at my social club for fifty pounds,
Speaker 2: so they would go an audition for people like my dad, you.
Speaker 1: Know, so amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean they weren't all that great, but
Speaker 2: to me it was magic.
Speaker 1: There must have been an education onto itself, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of how to be and on stage, and
Speaker 1: you know, one per.
Speaker 3: One percent what it was was.
Speaker 2: The big thing for me was that I when I
Speaker 2: watched these bands set up their equipment when I was
Speaker 2: about seven or eight at these parties. So this was
Speaker 2: a little early because we used to have these bands
Speaker 2: play at Christena it'd been out and reinforce the cultural stereotype.
Speaker 2: But there was a lot of Christenings and a lot
Speaker 2: of weddings, and my aunties and uncles I used to
Speaker 2: have these bands play. But when I saw these adults
Speaker 2: setting up their equipment, that was when it occurred to
Speaker 2: me that, oh, this is a job. Ah he's nearly
Speaker 2: always guys, these guys, and I see the same people,
Speaker 2: the same guys, and they'd be bringing their amplifiers and
Speaker 2: someone setting the drum kit. I'd be like, Oh, as
Speaker 2: an adult, you can do that. It's not just people
Speaker 2: on the television. Because on the television I just see
Speaker 2: these bands magically appear and looking great, you know, with
Speaker 2: the velvet suits on and all of this. And I'd
Speaker 2: actually see these men setting up their equipment and pulling
Speaker 2: these amplifiers and feeding back and testing, and.
Speaker 3: I was like, where do I sign up for that? Wow,
Speaker 3: that looks like a great job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and your parents must have been thrilled as much
Speaker 1: as in the music as they are that you started
Speaker 1: thinking that way, right, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people can probably relate to this.
Speaker 2: They were absolutely thrilled until at fifteen I decided or
Speaker 2: fourteen decided that I was gonna go for it and
Speaker 2: not go to school. So now that it's worked out
Speaker 2: and I've actually, you know, it's my day job, they're
Speaker 2: really really proud. Much more than the fact that I'm famous.
Speaker 2: They're just really proud that I'm a full time guitar player. Seriously,
Speaker 2: and if I ever make records where there's not enough
Speaker 2: guitar on it, I kind of get to hear about it.
Speaker 3: And yeah, but you know, mount craft work. No, it's okay,
Speaker 3: I'm playing I'm playing synth on this one. So they
Speaker 3: proud of that.
Speaker 2: But you know, like a lot of teenagers, you know,
Speaker 2: I went through kind of a pretty rebellious and rough patch.
Speaker 2: We went through a kind of a bit of a
Speaker 2: you know, typical sort of rebellious kind of They were
Speaker 2: worried that when I stopped going to school and was
Speaker 2: very obviously you know, taking drugs and spending all my
Speaker 2: time with these reprobates. But it was all really wrapped
Speaker 2: up with the music as well. It wasn't just hedonistic stuff.
Speaker 3: I joined the band. Thing was I joined the band
Speaker 3: when I was fifteen, who have adults.
Speaker 2: Who were very dubious, and my parents kind of said, well,
Speaker 2: it's either that or you have to get out.
Speaker 3: So so I just left harm you know, but just
Speaker 3: got it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was a bit contentious, and you know,
Speaker 2: so I was a little wild fifteen sixteen.
Speaker 1: But what was your sister thinking.
Speaker 2: My sister was the mediator. She was the great mediator.
Speaker 2: She's only eleven months younger than me. We were very
Speaker 2: tight and still are, you know. But it's a funny
Speaker 2: one because yeah, they were proud of me being a musician.
Speaker 2: But I think when I actually was like, listen, I'm
Speaker 2: going to go for it, and I'm going to go
Speaker 2: to London and I'm gonna even though you know, I
Speaker 2: had no money whatsoever, and I'm going to join this
Speaker 2: band and these adults. So they were very obviously kind
Speaker 2: of dangerous characters. You know, they're pretty druggy. They sounded
Speaker 2: like a cross between Hawkwind and I guess the Stooges.
Speaker 3: Of course, sister Ray. I think their tracks up on YouTube.
Speaker 3: It's got a song called suicide.
Speaker 2: So because he'd made a rack, they sought me out
Speaker 2: at fifteen, right, and they were like coming being the band,
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure I said, listen, you are aware
Speaker 2: that I'm I am fifteen or fourteen even I think
Speaker 2: I didn't want it to be a freak show, and
Speaker 2: they were like, hey, listen, now, come on, come on,
Speaker 2: it'll be cool. So I used to go to their
Speaker 2: rehearsal a couple of times a week and it was
Speaker 2: the Red Light area, really kind of rough area in
Speaker 2: Manchester a couple of nights a week, and to subsidize that,
Speaker 2: I used to sell clothes and pals and working clothes shops.
Speaker 2: But anyway I left, I had to leave home. I
Speaker 2: had to leave home to do that because my parents
Speaker 2: didn't approve. And that was a little bit of a
Speaker 2: kind of a rough bit of a look back now,
Speaker 2: and it was a bit of a wild time for me.
Speaker 1: But London and seventy seven at fourteen fifteen, yeah, must
Speaker 1: have been that must have been crazy.
Speaker 2: Well, it was amazing because I went to the I
Speaker 2: went to the Marquee when I was fifteen to see
Speaker 2: a band called Pearl Harbor and the Explosions and they
Speaker 2: had the Stray Cats. Who else was in London at
Speaker 2: the time, the class she was still around. This is
Speaker 2: seventy eight, seventy nine, and I was really into this
Speaker 2: band called the only Ones.
Speaker 3: You know, I sung Another Girl Another Planet. Yeah, So
Speaker 3: I fell.
Speaker 2: In love with this band called the only Ones and
Speaker 2: I followed them around quite a bit and that involved,
Speaker 2: you know, sleeping on train stations. Me and Andy Rogue, who
Speaker 2: was my best palet at the time. I enlisted in
Speaker 2: the Smith, so we Yeah, I used to hang around
Speaker 2: close shops, and that was all to me. That was
Speaker 2: all part of the apprenticeship of being a musician because
Speaker 2: I heard loads of records. As I say, I saw
Speaker 2: Brian Setzer when I was I think fourteen, I saw
Speaker 2: Patty Smith when I was fourteen, I saw the Cramps,
Speaker 2: And to me, all of this stuff has made me
Speaker 2: what I am really seeing all those bands when I
Speaker 2: was really young.
Speaker 1: What'd you think of Brian Setzer at the time.
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it. He was amazing.
Speaker 1: And what were the Straight Cats doing over there?
Speaker 3: They had a hit, They had a I think they were.
Speaker 2: England was where they took off, and me and my
Speaker 2: pals were like, listen, there's this crazy guitar player.
Speaker 3: It's rockabilly band. I saw them.
Speaker 2: I think there was you know, maybe about thirty people
Speaker 2: in the audience in this whole lot held like eight
Speaker 2: hundred people.
Speaker 3: So all of that stuff. You know, I saw Peru Boo,
Speaker 3: and I saw a whole load.
Speaker 2: Of bands I didn't care for because we used to
Speaker 2: sneak into all the venues. So I look back on
Speaker 2: all of that and it can sound romantic, and I
Speaker 2: can make it sound romantic, and that's because it actually was.
Speaker 2: I had no problem with walking back from a venue
Speaker 2: from going to see some band, whether I liked him
Speaker 2: or not, walking back for miles with no train fair
Speaker 2: and it all feeling like it was part of an apprenticeship, you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, all part of the mission.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How did you meet Andy Rourke?
Speaker 2: We went to the same school and he was you know,
Speaker 2: it's like with guys in school. I saw a guy
Speaker 2: another guy with long hair, long scruffy hair, and we
Speaker 2: were either going to be friends or we were going
Speaker 2: to fight. We were either like in competition or we
Speaker 2: were comrades, and I think neither of us wanted to fight.
Speaker 2: You know. I I had a button as you kept
Speaker 2: in America at a badge that said that it was
Speaker 2: a Neil Young Tonight's tonight.
Speaker 3: And he walked up.
Speaker 2: To me and he went to night to night and
Speaker 2: he did this really amazing Neil Young impression, and I
Speaker 2: was just really impressed that he knew what tonight's tonight was.
Speaker 3: You do that kind of thing when you were a kid,
Speaker 3: It's so important. I was like, yeah, wow. I mean
Speaker 3: I wasn't going to wear one that had harvest.
Speaker 2: It had to be obviously, it had to be a
Speaker 2: really obscure badge, and he walked up to me and
Speaker 2: he just sang Tonight Tonight, and I thought, Wow, this
Speaker 2: guy's cool, and then we just became friends for life.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you see Neil on that Tonight's the Night tour
Speaker 1: in London?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: No, that was I was too young for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know the big amazing story about that, about
Speaker 2: Tonight's to Night that tour.
Speaker 3: So he came over to England.
Speaker 2: He played at the Scarlet, which I might be wrong
Speaker 2: about it might be the Rainbow, but anyway, John Lyden
Speaker 2: told me this. So he comes and the album hadn't
Speaker 2: been released yet, and it's also a real down heavy album,
Speaker 2: as you know, right. Anyway, he comes out and he's
Speaker 2: got scraggly beard and he's drinking loads of tequila and
Speaker 2: the stage and if you look on the inside of
Speaker 2: that record, the stage set is crazy. It's got platform
Speaker 2: boots hanging up and it's got like a it's got
Speaker 2: hub caps all over the stage and a fake palm tree.
Speaker 2: So he comes out and he starts playing this album
Speaker 2: no one's ever heard. So he plays Tonight's Tonight from
Speaker 2: start to finish. It's not even been released yet, and
Speaker 2: it's this real down alcohol kind of thing and he
Speaker 2: plays it and the audience is like, what the hell
Speaker 2: is this? And it's going down kind of badly. He
Speaker 2: goes off and he gets called back on for the
Speaker 2: encore and he says to the audience, now I'm going
Speaker 2: to play one that you've heard before, and he plays
Speaker 2: Tonight's Tonight again.
Speaker 3: That happened.
Speaker 1: I just saw Neil six nights ago. So it was
Speaker 1: just like, this guy does not give a fuck.
Speaker 3: You know, I've never seen him play.
Speaker 2: You've never seen Neil never, man, it's crazy, just for
Speaker 2: some reason or other, just never.
Speaker 1: It's worth it. It's just I've never seen someone so single minded,
Speaker 1: so single minded, you know those I don't want.
Speaker 2: To generalize too much, but I've met a few sixties musicians,
Speaker 2: which obviously you are very very fortunate, Just just a
Speaker 2: few a handful, and.
Speaker 3: They, nearly to a man and woman, really care about playing.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I might sound obvious, but the most important thing is
Speaker 2: if there's a guitar in the room, they will pick
Speaker 2: it up and they'll play Ronnie Woods like that. Donovan's
Speaker 2: like that, you know, Paul McCartney's really like that, you know,
Speaker 2: like those people hats off to him, and I think
Speaker 2: they're really Ironically, it's kind of come around where some
Speaker 2: of those older generation musicians they go out and they
Speaker 2: appear to do it because they're you know, whether it's
Speaker 2: your thing or not.
Speaker 3: But you know, the Rod Stewarts and the Who's.
Speaker 2: And the Jaggers and Springsteen's and all of those sort
Speaker 2: of people. Johnny Mitchell even now coming back. You know,
Speaker 2: it's nice to see that those people who could be
Speaker 2: just sat on their boats or sat under the palm
Speaker 2: trees or spending all the time with their architects and
Speaker 2: all of that, they appear to be out there doing
Speaker 2: it because maybe they know something that we don't, which is,
Speaker 2: you know, what they're really isn't anything better. Yeah, I've
Speaker 2: realized how super fortunate I am that I have people's ears.
Speaker 2: You know, there's an audience as people who are like
Speaker 2: interested in what I'm up to at the moment. That's
Speaker 2: such a motivations, you know. But I do like to
Speaker 2: think that might be bullshit. But it's easy for me
Speaker 2: to say but that if I didn't, I'd still be
Speaker 2: playing every day, practicing yeah, you know, just for the
Speaker 2: love of it, and just to try and get better,
Speaker 2: try and get better and better in some ways, you know,
Speaker 2: if that's all you've got to do all day, you
Speaker 2: get pretty good. But it's horses of course, is you know.
Speaker 2: I like what bands are. I like what indie rock
Speaker 2: for one. I don't like pump myself in a box
Speaker 2: too much, but I like the area of music that
Speaker 2: I work in. I still feel like that there are
Speaker 2: surprises in that area of music. Obviously, you and I
Speaker 2: we can talk about go off on these different tangents,
Speaker 2: talk about all kinds of different music, you know. But
Speaker 2: my mission, I think it almost kind of got doubled
Speaker 2: in a way.
Speaker 3: When I got the solo band together.
Speaker 2: I felt like I had this freedom to pull in
Speaker 2: all my influences that really goes back to people like Sparks.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing, I think, because what you love
Speaker 2: is such a subjective thing, obviously, and I think you
Speaker 2: get to a point in your life where you kind
Speaker 2: of go back to as an influence. You really do
Speaker 2: draw on those things that were your first loves. I
Speaker 2: love being in the modern world. I'm not partiking nostalgic person,
Speaker 2: but the area of music that I'm working in, guitar music,
Speaker 2: I guess melodic that I suppose, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: really use terms like art rock, but you know, I'm
Speaker 2: fine with being called an indie musician. It all sounds
Speaker 2: like to me. It's all what used to be called
Speaker 2: rock music. Anyway, for the longest time. I used to
Speaker 2: call myself a pop musician for the longer time, and
Speaker 2: still until I started really recognizing that pop music is
Speaker 2: something very very different now, and I think that's post
Speaker 2: rave and to do with the technology and all this
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. I'm not gonna make past judgment on it.
Speaker 2: But when I started out at eleven or twelve and
Speaker 2: studying these records t Rex, the Sweet Sparks that luckily
Speaker 2: for me, had amazing guitar playing on it. Who knows
Speaker 2: what in England we call glam rock. In America, glam
Speaker 2: rock was a different thing. Was a little bit to
Speaker 2: do with sunset and the hair bands and all that.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: But in England glam rock was very definitely nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 2: seventy three, seventy four, Davy Bowie, you know, the gene
Speaker 2: Genie and all that stuff, which you know, you know,
Speaker 2: those forty fives were amazing education for me. And as
Speaker 2: I say, it's probably subjective because that was when this
Speaker 2: stuff really really hit me. But I still think that
Speaker 2: what I do is working within that area where it's
Speaker 2: for me. The best thing is that it's concise. It
Speaker 2: doesn't have to go on for seven or eight minutes
Speaker 2: unless I'm making a point, and there's guitar hooks in it,
Speaker 2: and the tempos are up, and yeah, it makes you, It
Speaker 2: gets a blood racing a little bit with some quite
Speaker 2: sort of interesting, clever, if possible lyrics that fit.
Speaker 1: That's the part musician in you. That that's where that
Speaker 1: is located. And that's what probably i'd imagine, like probably
Speaker 1: how you fell in love with Chic in the seventies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well I think with sik it was to
Speaker 2: do with the harmonic progressions a lot. I always say this,
Speaker 2: but with so much is made with now Rogers, everyone
Speaker 2: obviously thinks, even if they're not musicians, what they're thinking
Speaker 2: of is his right hand.
Speaker 3: Well, what I'm really.
Speaker 2: Fell in love with was his left hand. These beautiful
Speaker 2: McCoy tyner. The first time I ever met now Rogers,
Speaker 2: first question asked was do you really like McCoy tyner
Speaker 2: because the core progression's so beautiful, so pretty, so emotional,
Speaker 2: you know, I want your love and lost in music
Speaker 2: and oh man, So that's why I like that stuff particularly.
Speaker 2: It wasn't just a groove, it was those beautiful harmonic changes.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm a real melody freak, and I'll try
Speaker 2: and squeeze those hooks in too, excite in kind of
Speaker 2: punchy guitar music wherever I can, especially if it's my
Speaker 2: own stuff.
Speaker 1: We're going to take another quick break and then come
Speaker 1: back with the rest of my conversation with Johnny Marr.
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of my conversation with Johnny Marr.
Speaker 1: Where did the riff for Spirit, Power and Soul? Can
Speaker 1: you figure out how you arrived at that riff?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: What I did was months before, when I was on
Speaker 2: the road. We had this third album called called The Comet.
Speaker 2: I started to think, the next single off the next
Speaker 2: album should be like an electro banger. I kind of
Speaker 2: did conceptualize it hand on heart. Now, Hey, I wish
Speaker 2: I could do that with every track, but the smith's
Speaker 2: used to do that. Sometimes we'd go because I was
Speaker 2: given a title, often not always, but sometimes say sometimes.
Speaker 2: I was given a title like Panic, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: what does that conjure up? Or meet his murder? And
Speaker 2: we meet his murder. I set myself the task of
Speaker 2: writing a horror score for animals because.
Speaker 3: I had the title.
Speaker 2: So I quite enjoy hey listen as I say. I
Speaker 2: wish I could do it more often. But I had
Speaker 2: the idea for Spirit, Power and Soul months before, and
Speaker 2: I went, oh, man, this band the next album, the
Speaker 2: first track on it would be really good if I
Speaker 2: can write an electro banger. So I started with a
Speaker 2: drum machine. I borrowed the drum machine off Steve Morris
Speaker 2: from New Order, which actually I've got to give it
Speaker 2: him back. And yeah, I thought, if I'm going to borrow,
Speaker 2: if I'm gonna borrow a drum machine, who better to
Speaker 2: borrow one off than Steve Great. So I got in
Speaker 2: a programming, even though I could have done it much
Speaker 2: quicker on the laptop, but that wasn't the point. I
Speaker 2: wanted to do the process, and I was kind of going,
Speaker 2: all right, we'll do something that's.
Speaker 3: Like Cabaret vaultare.
Speaker 2: So I had the beat anyway, I was playing along
Speaker 2: with that for like four days, and I wrote this
Speaker 2: song that wasn't very good, and then I had to
Speaker 2: just kind of scrap it and apply myself again. And
Speaker 2: I just wrote it and wrote it and wrote it
Speaker 2: and wrote it. I went in the studio from ten
Speaker 2: so five or six for five days and I would
Speaker 2: sing melody and melody and this is too clever.
Speaker 3: This, it's to melodic.
Speaker 2: This is I just knew what I wanted, but I
Speaker 2: knew what it would be when I found it. Hey,
Speaker 2: I'm talking a little bit like I've written a day
Speaker 2: in the life. I know it's but that's what I
Speaker 2: had to do.
Speaker 1: It's a great song, man, it's a great.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Well.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that because I worked my ass off doing it.
Speaker 2: I just kept writing these vocal melodies that were too melodic,
Speaker 2: so it became a real craft. The interesting thing about
Speaker 2: that song is that sometimes I have ideas, and I've
Speaker 2: had these ideas from being a kid, where I have
Speaker 2: an idea for what would be a good song away
Speaker 2: from the guitar and away from the studio, and I
Speaker 2: have it in my mind, and then I set about
Speaker 2: trying to do it, and when it works out, it's fantastic.
Speaker 1: It's a wild way to come to a song, like
Speaker 1: you're not even in the realm of music, you're away
Speaker 1: from it. Do you think that would be the worst
Speaker 1: song potentially that it's like this thing where you're like
Speaker 1: conceptualizing it before you even have the chance to you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm really glad it worked out. But I
Speaker 2: was determined. And to be fair, I think when you're
Speaker 2: talking about skills, say, one of the skills that I've
Speaker 2: learned that I didn't have years ago was I learned
Speaker 2: this perseverance from Bernard Sumner from New Order. Working with
Speaker 2: Bernard for nine years in Electronic If he had an
Speaker 2: idea for a song and he believed in it, he
Speaker 2: would not let that thing go away. He would keep
Speaker 2: coming back to it until he was right. So that
Speaker 2: was a skill that I've learned along the way from
Speaker 2: somebody else. It was it wasn't to do with, you know,
Speaker 2: diatonic scales, what to do with, you know, music theory.
Speaker 2: Was to do with application process, and I've learned on
Speaker 2: that subject. It's been I could go through all the
Speaker 2: people I've worked with and tell you what I've learned
Speaker 2: from him. Now I think about it, I might be
Speaker 2: getting a little bit sentimental in my old age, but
Speaker 2: Isaac Brock, Pritty High and everyone, everyone, really I learned
Speaker 2: something from all of them.
Speaker 1: You know what about from Chrissy.
Speaker 3: Chrissy ay listen?
Speaker 2: I played with the last week at Glastonbury, you know,
Speaker 2: and that was amazing rejoining playing those songs after thirty years,
Speaker 2: you know, because I haven't played them since nineteen eighty whatever.
Speaker 2: So Chrissy, well, I learned that there's a lot when
Speaker 2: you walk on stage, even though I don't want to
Speaker 2: embarrass it. She mightn't even realize this, but when you
Speaker 2: walk on stage as the front man, you give off
Speaker 2: the vibe to the rest of.
Speaker 3: The band that no matter what happens, you've got this.
Speaker 2: And I picked up because I was very young when
Speaker 2: I was working with Christy was twenty four and we
Speaker 2: were doing these we were playing sometimes we played to
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people opening for you too, and certainly
Speaker 2: seventy thousand people most nights on the Joshua Tree tour.
Speaker 3: And I'm telling you, I was terrified.
Speaker 2: But when I walked behind her on stage, I was like,
Speaker 2: It's cool, she's got this.
Speaker 3: I try and be that for my band.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also you know things like in rehearsal when
Speaker 2: you wear that one, two, three four, when you start singing,
Speaker 2: you sing like you're on stage. None of this like
Speaker 2: looking at your phone or looking up at the roof
Speaker 2: and or you know, being distracted when for those four
Speaker 2: minutes that you're singing.
Speaker 3: You really are in it. Yeah. I learned a lot
Speaker 3: from Christy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's quite dedicated as a in her as her
Speaker 1: role as front person.
Speaker 2: In a natural way, in a natural way because a
Speaker 2: big part of her as well is that she's a
Speaker 2: punk rocker and she's not too referential the business of
Speaker 2: being in a band. She honors that she thinks being
Speaker 2: in a band is a special thing, and especially her
Speaker 2: relationship with a guitar player that goes right back to
Speaker 2: Jimmy Scott, who I was a big fan of when
Speaker 2: I was a kid, which you can really hear in
Speaker 2: my plane, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of like, you know, you're sort of thinking
Speaker 1: of yourself as a pop musician in a weird way.
Speaker 1: On paper could look like a strange pairing, but I
Speaker 1: think having spoken to you now, it seems to make
Speaker 1: a ton of sense. You and Hans Zimmer and Pharrell
Speaker 1: getting together, yeah, about a decade ago to work on
Speaker 1: some of that Spider Man stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know. Well, I've got to say this is classic
Speaker 2: hands because Hans is a real lateral thinker. He really
Speaker 2: thinks outside of the box. And he genuinely told me
Speaker 2: this so many times now that I really think it's true.
Speaker 2: So when me and Pharrell first got in a room
Speaker 2: together and we wrote two songs on that that thing,
Speaker 2: just me and him, Hans loved telling this story that
Speaker 2: he was watching the guy who wrote literally, watching the
Speaker 2: guy who wrote Heaven Knows I'm Miserable now writing a
Speaker 2: song with the guy who wrote Happy.
Speaker 3: He thought that was hilarious.
Speaker 2: And so we got offered that movie, The Amazing Spider
Speaker 2: Man three, and he and I got together and he
Speaker 2: was like, well, what comes to mind what you're thinking.
Speaker 2: I don't really know the franchise very much, but I
Speaker 2: had this idea.
Speaker 3: I saw the opening scene, so a real rough it.
Speaker 2: And it was New York and it was like, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of action and everything, and I said, you
Speaker 2: know what it should it should be like the Who.
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking classic rock, but I was just thinking
Speaker 2: it should be like won't get fooled again.
Speaker 3: It should be like, if you're asking me as a.
Speaker 2: Guitar player power chords, it's whoa this big kind of
Speaker 2: explosive thing. I never think in terms of metal. It's
Speaker 2: just not my bag. But yeah, if I think explosive,
Speaker 2: I think of like the Who or whatever. And he
Speaker 2: really liked that idea, and then from that he jumped
Speaker 2: then to like having a band in a room so
Speaker 2: straight away because Junkie Excel was he had a studio
Speaker 2: in the same building that we were in, and he
Speaker 2: was brilliant like, well listen, we'll get junky Excel on bass.
Speaker 3: And then we had this idea about this explosive pop book.
Speaker 2: Hands then was like, who's the most melodic thinking that
Speaker 2: you can think of? Who's like, who's amazing act coming
Speaker 2: up with melodies? And he just let's just ask for real,
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, I was like, well, this
Speaker 2: would be interesting. I mean, I'm not I'm sure I'm
Speaker 2: not the first person to say this at all. But
Speaker 2: when for All comes in the room, he's like, where's
Speaker 2: the tune? Let me write a tune.
Speaker 3: He's amazing.
Speaker 2: We were putting the song down. I don't I'm sure
Speaker 2: he won't mind me telling this story. I've been for
Speaker 2: a run in the morning and I had this idea
Speaker 2: that we needed a romantic song. We need like the
Speaker 2: love the love song in this And I just happened
Speaker 2: to be out running in the morning and I heard
Speaker 2: that this this tune in my head. I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: that would be good, so I'll get I was enthusiastic
Speaker 2: to get in the studio and put this tune down.
Speaker 3: So I got in the studio.
Speaker 2: Kind of early, and we're in this big room and
Speaker 2: I started laying this down and there's some of the musicians,
Speaker 2: a couple of string players piano, and Hans was playing piano,
Speaker 2: and fell wasn't there. And we started putting this running
Speaker 2: the chords down and I've got this tune and we're
Speaker 2: putting it down and we're recording it. And about the
Speaker 2: second time I get through this tune for our walks
Speaker 2: in and uh. We're halfway through the tune and he's
Speaker 2: kind of trying to be quiet and make a noise
Speaker 2: and he's got he picks the microphone up and when
Speaker 2: we finished doing this quick run through, we've got to
Speaker 2: start a third one for some technical reason, and he's
Speaker 2: asking Steve Lipson to stop the track. I want to sing,
Speaker 2: and Hans goes, can we just put the track down?
Speaker 3: He goes, I want to.
Speaker 2: Now, My point in telling this story is that most
Speaker 2: musicians know that is the opposite of what happens. What
Speaker 2: usually happens is you have a tune and you put
Speaker 2: the tune down and you have to wait for days
Speaker 2: for the singer to sing. For I was like, plug
Speaker 2: this in, plug this in, let me sing. It was brilliant,
Speaker 2: and he's in the control room. He's tapping on his
Speaker 2: phone all the time, tapping on his phone writing lyrics.
Speaker 2: So my experience with with with for Alpha on that
Speaker 2: movie was he was He's exactly what I thought.
Speaker 3: He was. Just music just oozes out the guy. I
Speaker 3: love it. Yeah, So that was this funny thing.
Speaker 2: But when when I've been asked a couple of times
Speaker 2: about collaboration, right, I use that that example of writing
Speaker 2: with Pharrell as an illustration as to what happens in
Speaker 2: the collaborative process, because on the face of it, what
Speaker 2: I say is it's like when you've got two musicians
Speaker 2: working together. On the face of it, look, I'm an
Speaker 2: indie rock musician from Manchester in the eighties and then
Speaker 2: Pharrell is a R and B, you know, hip hop
Speaker 2: pop musician from America. But I always say it's a
Speaker 2: bit like you're getting a rowbot and the two ears
Speaker 2: are rowing in the same direction, and the horizon is
Speaker 2: the speakers. I think the point is is that music
Speaker 2: and collaboration and when you're trying to create something with someone,
Speaker 2: even if you don't know them very well, it transcends
Speaker 2: your being from different backgrounds, completely transcends it. Yeah, music's
Speaker 2: amazing for that, and collaboration is amazing.
Speaker 3: You're both trying to just come up with a really
Speaker 3: good middle eight.
Speaker 2: And because of that, because people on the outside will go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you have to check your egos at the door or well,
Speaker 2: I mean that's a given because people who are serious,
Speaker 2: they just want to make something great and it's not
Speaker 2: even a question of egos, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean the people I've worked with, the.
Speaker 2: Greats, you know they I'm sure they have an ego
Speaker 2: when they're getting out on stage, but when it comes
Speaker 2: down to work, they know, you know, you've got to
Speaker 2: put the hours in. Billie Eilish is like that, Atlicia
Speaker 2: Keys is like that, just real hard working, rolling the
Speaker 2: sleeves up and putting the hours in, you know.
Speaker 1: A talking about greats who put in the work. What
Speaker 1: was it like observing or being a part of the
Speaker 1: Joshua Tree tour like seeing YouTube in that moment as
Speaker 1: a close.
Speaker 2: If you were well, the amazing thing was I told
Speaker 2: Edge this actually that so when I joined that tour,
Speaker 2: because the pretender's been doing it for a while, and
Speaker 2: then the guitar player quit and then I joined on there.
Speaker 2: At that point, Bono was doing this thing where he's
Speaker 2: in front of whatever, seventy eighty thousand people and they've
Speaker 2: got this material that is just really sounding good in
Speaker 2: those stadiums. And don't forget that it was new music
Speaker 2: then where the Streets have No Name and I still
Speaker 2: haven't found what I'm looking for. They were new songs
Speaker 2: that people were just hearing on the radio right, So
Speaker 2: it was like, WHOA, this is a pretty good place
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 3: I was stood out the side of the stage going wow,
Speaker 3: when you hear that, When you hear where.
Speaker 2: The Streets have no Name, which I think they used
Speaker 2: to start with, you go what, I think this song's
Speaker 2: going to stick around for a while. And so there
Speaker 2: was a vibe and they come on and Bonn I
Speaker 2: was doing this thing where midway through the set or whatever,
Speaker 2: he would climb up on the pa and then he
Speaker 2: would climb on whatever, on some light in trust or whatever,
Speaker 2: and he was hanging down off doing that thing, and
Speaker 2: he'd be hanging down a fit and you know, and
Speaker 2: Chrissy said to me, go to look at that.
Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of laughing about it. What does
Speaker 3: he think he's doing?
Speaker 2: And I said to her, you know, chrisy, I saw
Speaker 2: him do that in front of about forty people in
Speaker 2: a little room in Manchester when they first came at
Speaker 2: Manchester in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3: I want to say, me and my pals went down.
Speaker 2: We heard about him on the John Peel Show and
Speaker 2: I thought that's really cool because he was doing it
Speaker 2: back then, and also I guess the music, I think
Speaker 2: I started to see that.
Speaker 3: Well. First off, you've got to have a real.
Speaker 2: Got a lot of energy to be the head of
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of organization with like you know,
Speaker 2: fifteen trucks and such a big, big organization. You know,
Speaker 2: that takes a lot out of you during the day,
Speaker 2: forget even the shows.
Speaker 3: Just being the.
Speaker 2: Center of all of that operation, which you know, made
Speaker 2: me realize that I'm okay with being what I am,
Speaker 2: you know, but because you know, I don't like a
Speaker 2: lot of fuss, So.
Speaker 3: I really admired that.
Speaker 2: But how masterful it was that you the tunes have
Speaker 2: to be really if you listen to those, that kind
Speaker 2: of music, which I guess was part of what defined
Speaker 2: now stayed in music.
Speaker 3: It's very simple, but it's in I.
Speaker 2: Remember those those nights as been pretty there's a lot
Speaker 2: of motion in that music. Simple doesn't necessarily mean like vacuous. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I still haven't found what I'm looking for is such
Speaker 2: as and and the Singing Man.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that was really that. That was very very cool.
Speaker 2: And again you know the chemistry of a band, if ever,
Speaker 2: you know, you want to talk about chemistry, you know,
Speaker 2: look at those guys. They're kind of really archetypal. You know,
Speaker 2: the edges are really archetypal. He's rolling the and you know,
Speaker 2: he's kind of arty, and he's got imagination and he
Speaker 2: he sort of paints pictures and with his guitars that
Speaker 2: sound and all of that, and Adam really holds it down.
Speaker 2: And then Bono's a flamboyant on stage and off kind
Speaker 2: of concepts guy and and Larry's the guy who kind
Speaker 2: of really is he formed the whole thing and he's
Speaker 2: like the engine in a way. Yeah, so it comes
Speaker 2: back to that thing if you are what you play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I think about the Edge, I also start
Speaker 1: to think about like Johnny Greenwood, Oh yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: he seems to me like you also, where it's like
Speaker 1: it's sort of just down to like like it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter how complicated it sounds. It's just like what fits
Speaker 1: this track, you know, and is adventurous.
Speaker 2: Similarly, yeah, well, well, difference between me and Johnny though,
Speaker 2: is that he's been able to grow with the same
Speaker 2: musicians over a long period of time, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, because again, they are another band, you know,
Speaker 2: with amazing chemistry.
Speaker 3: You know, they've all beco who they are.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know now that you know, they got
Speaker 2: to a place where they're all doing their own projects
Speaker 2: and everything. But Johnny's been in a place where he's
Speaker 2: been able to grow with Phil Selway playing behind him
Speaker 2: and with Tom next to him. The difference with me
Speaker 2: is that I've done that in different bands. I think
Speaker 2: that's a big difference between me and Johnny. You know,
Speaker 2: in a way if you like Johnny's, Johnny's family stayed
Speaker 2: together a long time, whereas my family was a very
Speaker 2: the family I was known for was very short lived,
Speaker 2: you know, in the Smiths, which is fine now. It
Speaker 2: happens with a lot more bands in than the ones
Speaker 2: that stay together for forty years.
Speaker 1: I think like the Beatles too, the Beatles. The Beatles
Speaker 1: short lived, but a lot of packed a big punch
Speaker 1: in their time. And it's smith I mean, you look
Speaker 1: at the work you guys did in the short amount
Speaker 1: of time. It's like, damn, it's a lot of It's
Speaker 1: a lot of work.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it felt like that, and I'm very extremely proud
Speaker 2: of it. But I think Johnny's as well as been
Speaker 2: supremely talented. I think he's been in a place where
Speaker 2: he can really he occupies his place in that band
Speaker 2: and has done for a long time now, and he's
Speaker 2: you know that band that they've all they've all sort
Speaker 2: of grown around each other, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: You pick any album like kid A or that, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm easy at that period. I really like him Rainbows
Speaker 2: as well, and they've all kind of evolved together. So
Speaker 2: I think that's really that's really suited him as a musician.
Speaker 2: I think it always suited my personality to kind of
Speaker 2: flit around. Really, you know, it doesn't come as any
Speaker 2: surprise to me whatsoever that I've been in loads of
Speaker 2: different bands.
Speaker 1: Going back to the beginning of our conversation. I love
Speaker 1: that it's something you've done, and I wish you I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like, you know, if I had my brothers,
Speaker 1: my personal taste taking into consideration to have my brothers,
Speaker 1: I would have that happen more often. Like I love
Speaker 1: seeing different like going back to jazz, like I love
Speaker 1: It's like I love the fact that I can pull
Speaker 1: up and be like, oh, I want to hear, Oh
Speaker 1: I can hear Oscar Peterson play with with Check Baker
Speaker 1: on this one, or I can hear I want to
Speaker 1: hear Wayne Shorter play with you know, Jimmy Cabb instead
Speaker 1: of what you know, right, I just want to hear
Speaker 1: what the different combinations and formations sound like. And that's
Speaker 1: what's cool about and why I got into making lots
Speaker 1: playlists around news, because it's like just cool toy hear
Speaker 1: how someone sounds in different context with different people at
Speaker 1: different times. It's just fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2: Well, sometimes I think what I do is more heard
Speaker 2: in some situations than others. So in the other there
Speaker 2: was quite a lot of space for me to do
Speaker 2: my thing in especially on the Dusk album you can
Speaker 2: hear you can hear me quite a lot, and then
Speaker 2: other times, like with electronic, the guitar kind of got
Speaker 2: squeezed out. But that was my actually down to me
Speaker 2: because I was really kind of getting getting so in
Speaker 2: electronic pop and I just got really enthusiastic for that,
Speaker 2: and I guess, you know, I just sort of fell
Speaker 2: out of love with being a rock musician during that period.
Speaker 2: But that's okay because I was only twenty five, twenty six,
Speaker 2: twenty seven.
Speaker 3: It's all part of.
Speaker 2: It and I've done that now and if you know,
Speaker 2: but but where the guitar did feature in on electronics
Speaker 2: records likes feel every be and get the message, it
Speaker 2: was pretty interesting stuff. I kind of wish that I'd
Speaker 2: done more of it, and Bernard was always, to be
Speaker 2: fair of Bernard was always encouraging me to do more
Speaker 2: of it, but I wanted to learn about other aspects
Speaker 2: of record making there so it is or what it
Speaker 2: is and you know, and on the Cribs record that
Speaker 2: I made.
Speaker 3: There's plenty of me on that stuff. I can hear
Speaker 3: a lot of that.
Speaker 2: So I mean, I really feel like as a and
Speaker 2: I don't mean to sound glib or whatever, but I
Speaker 2: kind of think of as a British guitar player, I've
Speaker 2: kind of had the best job I could think of.
Speaker 2: I mean genuinely, you know, I understand sure because Dismiss
Speaker 2: are so revered and so loved over time and almost
Speaker 2: you know, times made the band almost even more kind
Speaker 2: of you know, valued or whatever the big narrative is.
Speaker 2: People are seeing, oh the band was so short lived,
Speaker 2: if only they could stay together.
Speaker 3: For longer, and all of that.
Speaker 2: But it makes sense to me that just speaking for
Speaker 2: my own life, that I've done all of this different
Speaker 2: stuff as a guitar player, it's entirely the person I
Speaker 2: was when that when I was fourteen fifteen, and I
Speaker 2: say that all the time, and it's it's a person
Speaker 2: that I kind of.
Speaker 3: Dreamed of being. Really.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, you know, life throws all kinds of
Speaker 2: curve balls without getting down you know too philosophical, nothing's
Speaker 2: doesn't turn out like a fairy tale. But professionally, man,
Speaker 2: I can't. Sometimes I think, Wow, I was Innder there.
Speaker 2: They were my favorite band at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and you were with them and maybe you know,
Speaker 1: like maybe their best record, you know, like Dusk is
Speaker 1: like yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: Dusk is a real good one. Yeah. It's just weird
Speaker 3: that it all turned out.
Speaker 2: And then, you know, I was really when when I
Speaker 2: The short thing with Body's Mouth was that I went
Speaker 2: through a period where the late night is were I
Speaker 2: just wasn't really hearing that much in British guitar music
Speaker 2: that excited me, But I was hearing it in American
Speaker 2: guitar music.
Speaker 3: I Built to Spill really liked. And there was a.
Speaker 2: Band called the Lilies I really liked from out of Boston.
Speaker 2: I thought Lilies were great. And then and Elliott Smith.
Speaker 2: And what happened was I met Elliott.
Speaker 3: And Elliott Smith. Oh yeah, I met Elliot a couple
Speaker 3: of times.
Speaker 2: In the first time I met him, I was talking
Speaker 2: to him about these bands and he hit me up
Speaker 2: to Modest Mouse.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what Modest Mouse was.
Speaker 2: It was Elliot who told me about Maddy s Mouse
Speaker 2: and he said, well, listen, I have you had Modice Mouse.
Speaker 2: He said something like all roads lead to Modese Mouse.
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, so that's how I got into
Speaker 2: He took me on the Moon and Antarctica, and then
Speaker 2: six seven years later I ended up being a full
Speaker 2: time member of the band for like longer than people think.
Speaker 3: I thought.
Speaker 2: I joined the band two thousand and five and I
Speaker 2: left the band twenty ten think, and ended up moving
Speaker 2: to Portland. So that was all down to without Elliott.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have known about that.
Speaker 1: How did you mean Elliott?
Speaker 2: I was in LA and mutual friend said he wanted
Speaker 2: to meet me, and we're a couple of mutual friends,
Speaker 2: and I think XO would just him out, and I
Speaker 2: thought that was great.
Speaker 3: I just thought he was really good.
Speaker 2: And then then I knew a couple of these musicians
Speaker 2: and he always had really nice The thing about him
Speaker 2: was the people I knew who worked with him were
Speaker 2: all really nice people. My friend Scott, he was his
Speaker 2: drummer for a while, so we had kind of we
Speaker 2: had a.
Speaker 3: Sort of mutual sort of scene.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, but I look back on all this and
Speaker 2: I think, Wow, I'm kind of glad.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that things works out worked out amazingly. Before
Speaker 1: we go, man, do you have I see your guitars
Speaker 1: back there? Do you have your nine? You have a
Speaker 1: you have a book coming out called Mars Guitars that
Speaker 1: I'm excited to check out. Do you have your nine?
Speaker 1: Pickup guitar?
Speaker 2: No one's ever asked me about that guitar. They probably
Speaker 2: won't again. Just it's in my actual studio because this
Speaker 2: is this is my house now. But it's an amazing sound.
Speaker 3: It's a guitar.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't drink anymore, but I wasn't actually
Speaker 2: drunk when I bought it. I may head, but it
Speaker 2: was back in the days when I was like drinking
Speaker 2: quite a lot. I was either drunk from the night before.
Speaker 2: But I went into a guitar shop with Nold gallagheries only.
Speaker 2: I think it was said maybe the might be when
Speaker 2: the very first day we met and I saw this thing,
Speaker 2: and I just was like my logic for buying that guitar.
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, if Kraftwork played guitar, that's what
Speaker 2: they would play. Nola had only just met me, and
Speaker 2: I think he thought this guy is a crazy, crazy
Speaker 2: rock star.
Speaker 1: That's a fair assessment.
Speaker 2: But you know what, maybe it was about what it
Speaker 2: probably almost thirty years later. I had to wait to
Speaker 2: get a song out of it, but it was spirit,
Speaker 2: power and soul.
Speaker 1: Ah so cool.
Speaker 3: It came up with the riffs.
Speaker 2: So hey, that's my that's that's my excuse, and I'm
Speaker 2: sticking to it. Man.
Speaker 1: I got a thousand and one questions for you. Man,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's such a such a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Hearkened to you all right, man, all the best. Thank
Speaker 3: you see here.
Speaker 1: Thanks Johnny Mar for talking about his epic career. You
Speaker 1: can hear all of our favorite track featuring Mar, as
Speaker 1: well as some of his solo work on a playlist
Speaker 1: app Broken record podcast dot com. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast,
Speaker 1: where you can find all of our new episodes. You
Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
Speaker 1: is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Holliday,
Speaker 1: and Eric sam Our editor is Sophie Kran. Broken Record
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this
Speaker 1: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content
Speaker 1: an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.
Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if
Speaker 1: you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and
Speaker 1: review us on your podcast app. My theme musics by
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Rischman.