1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. This 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: episode contains descriptions of sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: The easiest way for a child to lose their seat 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: at the adult table is to speak. If no one 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: hears your voice for long enough, they forget you're there. 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: They let things slip, They say things they wouldn't normally 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: say in front of a child. Even the adults who 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: noticed and remember your presence will simply point a finger 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: in your direction and make direct eye contact. You better 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: not repeat any of this you hear. That's Ashley Seaford, 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: author of the memoir Somebody's Daughter. Ashley's is a story 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: of generational trauma and the ways our lives can be 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: shaped by what we do not yet know. It's also 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: a story of tremendous rise lands and the capacity to 15 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: turn what is most difficult into art. I'm Danny Shapiro, 16 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: and this is family Secrets. The secrets that are kept 17 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. The landscape of my childhood 19 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: is sort of as deceptively flat as Indiana. Indiana is 20 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: thought of as a very flat state, and I get 21 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: at I mean, whenever I take a road trip anywhere, 22 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: I can tell I'm somewhere else when it starts to 23 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: be visibly hilly or mountainous. But it's also a deception 24 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: because as there's a lot going on on the ground 25 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: in Indiana, and so no place is actually very flat, 26 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: things are growing in the places that other people would 27 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: call flat. And I think that my childhood was similarly 28 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: that way. I think it looked like I was having 29 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: a very normal experience and I was having within myself 30 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: something a lot more mountainous. Mm hmm. I love the 31 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: way you put that, So let's talk a little bit 32 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: about that inner mountainous terrain. Describe your mother for me. 33 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: The mother of your childhood, the mother of my childhood 34 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: is beautiful. She's my whole world in a lot of respects, 35 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: as most people's mothers are. She is both loving and volatile. 36 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: She is as charming in the world as she can 37 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: be full of rage in the home. She is young, 38 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: younger than I think it's possible to realize as a 39 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: child when she had you. How old was she one? 40 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine being a parent at 41 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: a married parent at one, and then very quickly becoming, 42 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, a single mom of two at Ashley's mom 43 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: became a single parent at Ashley and her younger brother 44 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: r C. Because her father was imprisoned. A few years later, 45 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: when Ashley is four, her mother is in a new 46 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: relationship and Ashley is starting to experience and be on 47 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: the receiving end of her mom's rage. Soon, Ashley is 48 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: sent to Missouri to live with their grandmother. What was 49 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: the landscape of that, like, you know, your grandmother's place. Oh, 50 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: it was it was a different life. I really took 51 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: to the country really quickly. It was you know, the 52 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: gravel driveways and the long grass that just grew everywhere, 53 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: the forest, you were surrounded by trees. There was just 54 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: something about being outside and sort of being expected to 55 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: be outside a lot that felt right to me and 56 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: felt good and natural to my body. And we lived 57 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: my grandmother and I. We lived in her stepfather. We 58 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: didn't live in the upstairs of the house with him. 59 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: We lived in the basement area, and we had a 60 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: staircase that went directly from the basement out into the backyard. 61 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: And there were always lizards and things like that in 62 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: that little stairway on our way out of the basement, 63 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: and I just there was something about living in that 64 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: place and being in that place where I was the 65 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: most comfortable my body has really ever felt. You wrote, 66 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: I was not always so afraid of the world or 67 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: nervous about the other people in it or what they 68 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: might do to me. So it seems that in your 69 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: early childhood the danger, if you felt danger, had to 70 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: do with your mother's rage and her sort of unpredictability. Yeah, 71 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: I was a very intense kid. I saw something on 72 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: TV that said cigarettes kill, and I was like, what, 73 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: my mom must not know this because she smoked cigarettes. 74 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: Like that was my whole thought process, and so I 75 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: took the cigarettes out of her bag and I just 76 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: threw them in the trash. I didn't even think about obviously, 77 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,559 Speaker 1: Like I'm very young at this point, around four years old. 78 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about the consequences of my actions because 79 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: I my child, because my brain is not formed in 80 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: that way yet. And my mother's reaction to that, to 81 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: finding out that I had thrown away her cigarettes, was 82 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: to wook me, for it to hit me over and 83 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: over and over, and I remember that it hurt, and 84 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: I remember that I blamed myself. I didn't feel like 85 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: something had happened to me that I didn't deserve. I 86 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: felt like, yeah, I deserved to hurt. I deserved to 87 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: get hit for what I did, even though I didn't 88 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: know what I was doing, and I knew that I 89 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: didn't do it with mal intent. I wasn't trying to 90 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: hurt me. I wasn't trying to upset anybody, but I 91 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: was treated like it was intentional. When you go live 92 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: with your grandma, it's in the wake of this that 93 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: you were more comfortable and more in your body, more 94 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: at home in yourself. Yeah. Soon though, Ashley is sent 95 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: back to Indiana to be with her mom, it's a 96 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: surprise to her that she has a new baby sister 97 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: waiting at home too. I didn't know it was coming, 98 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: but there' she was um, and you know, thank God, 99 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: because she's the best. But I definitely wasn't expecting to 100 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: come back to a different kind of family formation. Tell 101 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: me about what you knew of or what you remembered 102 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: of your father as when you were a child. At first, 103 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: almost nothing. He was more of an idea. I guess, 104 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: like I knew I had a dad out there in 105 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: some respect, but I knew nothing about him. I didn't 106 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: know what he looked like. Um, I didn't know who 107 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: he was in any respect. And it wasn't until I 108 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: found a picture of him in my grandmother's closet and 109 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: she explained to me who he was that I suddenly 110 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: felt that it was important to try to remember who 111 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: he was, and that that was information I should have 112 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: and I should hold on to. And then, you know, 113 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: I don't remember visiting my dad until I was around 114 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: seven years old that I saw him in person. I mean, 115 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: after hugging him and forming that memory of him as 116 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: a person, as a full human being, it was different. 117 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: He occupied a much bigger space in my mind. Yeah, 118 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: that makes so much sense. And there's a lot that 119 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: you write about about making memories, which I found really 120 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: interesting because, of course, you know, in many ways we're 121 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: not in control of our memories, and our memories change 122 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: in the retelling um again and again. You know, this 123 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: kind of sense of in a way spiraling back but 124 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: always coming to a new understanding or a new thought, 125 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: a new memory. But the idea of making memory is 126 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: like I want to freeze this in time in some way, 127 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: or I want to hold onto this and I can 128 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: imagine what it must have felt like to be a 129 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: seven year old really meeting your father for the first time. Yeah, 130 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: but some years before Ashley meets her father, there is 131 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: another male presence in her life, her baby sister's father. 132 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: His name is Alan. Alan was probably six ft tall. 133 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: He was just, like, you know, a regular dude. I guess. 134 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: He was usually wearing his blue uniform. He was a 135 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: Santa Haitian worker, and he just wore that uniform all 136 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: the time. And he had a brown hat that he 137 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: wore all the time. He was kind of like the 138 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: cartoon character Doug from Nickelodeon who always had on the 139 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: same clothes, staying clothes over and over and over. Unless 140 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: it was a holiday or a special day, he might 141 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: have on regular clothes. But I really owned, like I 142 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: would say, at the time I saw him in his uniform, 143 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: when my sister was around a year. Somewhere between a 144 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: year and two years old is when he started to 145 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: consistently be Around the time that I remember them getting together, 146 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm about oh, six or seven years old, and they 147 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: did not break up until my freshman year of college. 148 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: And in all of that time, as much as he 149 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: was around, he never spent the night in our home. 150 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: M I can't say that I know why, but I 151 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: know that the entire time it was a point of 152 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: contention and and hurtful to my mother, and that it 153 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: was something that he would bring up, you know, as 154 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: like when he was upset with her, as like you know, 155 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: almost like the punishment, like and this is why I 156 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: don't spend the night, And how did he treat you 157 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: like a nuisance? And unless he could use me to 158 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: get under my mom's skin, um, which probably happened twice 159 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: before I realized that that's what was happening and just 160 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: refused to be part of that anymore. But yeah, he 161 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: was very dismissive. He was sarcastic. He was highly critical 162 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: of not just my mother, you know, as we got older, 163 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: he would make fun of us. He would say things 164 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: about our bodies, and it was pretty gross and it 165 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: was disturbing, and it was like if a forty year 166 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: old man was hanging around and he had retained the 167 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: sense of humor of a twelve year old boy. That 168 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: says at all. By this time, Allen and Ashley's mother 169 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: have had another child, Jorian. The familiar atmosphere is fraught 170 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: Ashley and her siblings grow up with a sense that 171 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: danger is everywhere, at school, at church, and even at home. 172 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: She writes, protecting my body became my number one goal. 173 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: They're the familial expectations that you will do whatever you 174 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: can to mitigate any unwanted attention from men or boys. 175 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: And then there's the spiritual side of it, where you 176 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: know when you grow up in a town where there's 177 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 1: a church on every corner, and you know you don't 178 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: necessarily just ask people what school they go to, you 179 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: also ask what church they go to, because everybody goes 180 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: to church. You get the message over and over and 181 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: over as a young girl from the church that it 182 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: is your responsibility and your responsibility at all alone to 183 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: protect what is essentially your value and what your value 184 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: will be to any man or partner or man who 185 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: you would want to be with, because anybody would who 186 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: would have you after you had been damaged or violated 187 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: in some way was a lesser man in the eyes 188 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: of God. So you know it's coming at you from 189 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: all sides. It's coming at you at school. You go 190 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: to school and there are rules about your body, and 191 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: you see who rules pertained to and who the rules 192 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: don't pertain to, and you think it's you. You think 193 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: that it must be you because everybody else has decided 194 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: that it's already. Tell me a little bit more about 195 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: who the rules pertained to and who the rules don't 196 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: pertain to. Well, I was a person um, a girl 197 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: whose body matured before adults were comfortable talking about a 198 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: girl's body maturing. I had breast when I was in 199 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: the third grade, I got my first minstreul cycle. Between 200 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: fourth and fifth grade, I developed, and the reaction of 201 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: the adults around me to my developing body was close considered. 202 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: Like if I wore the same shirt as my best 203 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: friend at the time, who had not hit puberty yet 204 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: and who still very much looked the way people would 205 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: expect girls our age to look, we would have on 206 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: almost the exact same outfit, and I would get sent 207 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: to the principle's office every time it gets to a 208 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: point where it feels like harassment. This was a consistent 209 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: thing for me in school, having the fact of my 210 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: body constantly policed by the adults who were in charge 211 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: of me, constantly being told that the way I looked, 212 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: the way I was shaped, just the shape of my 213 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: body was inappropriate, and I'm still dealing with the shame 214 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: that came with believing that and having to adhered policies 215 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: that forced me to believe it. One New Year's Eve, 216 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: when Ashley is a young girl, she's faced with an 217 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: other terribly inappropriate response to her body. A family friend, 218 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: an older man, kisses her at midnight. I knew it was. 219 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: It immediately felt wrong, and I also realized almost immediately 220 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: that I had to wagh whether or not that moment 221 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: was worth possibly destroying a person, possibly destroying a gathering, 222 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: a family, essentially really a family. I thought, if I 223 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: say something, it could destroy my family, and uh, yeah, 224 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: that was really really sad and unfortunate. So that becomes 225 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: a secret, something that you know, you bury somewhere within 226 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: your body, within your psyche. And the sense that you 227 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: had and that you write about that scene was danger 228 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: was everywhere. So in a way it's corroborated. You know, 229 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: your mother tells you she wants you to see danger everywhere, 230 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: and then lo and behold, there's danger right in the 231 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: same room as her. We'll be right back in all 232 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: these years growing up with danger ever present, her father 233 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: is ever absent. This absence is a defining quality in 234 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: her life, and when finally she gets to know him, 235 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: she gets to know herself too. When my dad was arrested, 236 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: I was about eight months old. The first time that 237 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: you really remember going to visit him and you know, 238 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: you want to make a memory and you start feeling 239 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: the significance of the fact that he's your father in 240 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: your life is when you're seven. Yes, I think anybody 241 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: who knows what it's like to see and talk to 242 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: another person and feel like a piece of the puzzle 243 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: has just locked into place. You know, whether that's like 244 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: lost sibling, a lover, who you need, who you can 245 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: tell is going to be important in your story and 246 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: you feel that thing lock into place. That's kind of 247 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: what it was like to have that moment and to 248 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: see my dad and to really be cognizant of him 249 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: and and cognizant of wanting to remember this moment with him. 250 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: You know, nobody had ever looked at me like that before, 251 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: Nobody had ever looked at me and their whole face 252 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: lit up like I was the best thing in the 253 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: world that it never happened to me before. And not 254 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: only was that happening in that moment, but the person 255 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: who had that look on their face was my dad. 256 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: And it's not like I didn't know people who were 257 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: dads or people who had dads. I never saw their 258 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: dad's look at them like that. But look at how 259 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: my dad looked at me. And I think that I 260 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: had had all this reason before then to suspect that 261 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: I was kind of bad, But in that moment, just 262 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: because of the way my dad looked at me, I 263 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: started to suspect that maybe I could be like especially 264 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: good in some way. Maybe the badness wasn't a special 265 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: thing about me. You know, it's amazing how in our 266 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: childhood's if there's one person, maybe it's a parent, maybe 267 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: it's a teacher, maybe it's a grandparent, and maybe it's 268 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: not often maybe it's a moment or an experience like 269 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: that where we have that feeling of being seen and 270 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: loved and held that can really go such a long 271 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: way to saving us. Absolutely, you know. Tony Morrison wrote 272 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: about this, talking about how when her children walked into 273 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: the room, she made sure that her face lit up 274 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 1: whenever they walked into a room. Whatever she was doing, 275 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: she always tried to make sure that the first thing 276 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: she did when they walk into a room was light up, 277 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: and I remember reading that and thinking that, oh, my god, 278 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: like that might be it, like that might be the secret, 279 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: because I knew how that moment had, you know, altered 280 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: my perception of myself as a child. It isn't until 281 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: actually is twelve that she asks an uncle why exactly 282 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: her father is in jail? Why do you think you 283 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: hadn't asked before? I think I specifically hadn't asked my 284 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: uncle Clarence before, because I genuinely worried that he didn't know. 285 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: At that point, I didn't realize that, oh, it's just 286 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: me and my brother who don't know. I thought maybe 287 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: it was that a lot of our family doesn't know, 288 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: and I asked him, you know, do you know? Like 289 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: that was my first question to him, was do you 290 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: know why my dad is in present? I wasn't sure 291 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: that he knew, and my mind wasn't sophisticated enough I 292 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: guess to assume that he would, but you know, he 293 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: reacted by saying that he didn't think it was his 294 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: place to tell us, right, And it's it's so interesting 295 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: because it sounds like you were actually being kind of 296 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: protective of him when you're twelve and you ask him that, 297 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: And so this is really the first time that you 298 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: understand that there are people in your family who know 299 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: things that you don't know about this. Yes, the world 300 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: around Ashley confirms once again that danger is everywhere. In 301 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: high school, she has a boyfriend, Bradley, who violently assaults her. 302 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: Both during and in the aftermath of that assault, Ashley dissociates. 303 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: She essentially floats away from her body, and she doesn't 304 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: tell anyone. Most notably, she doesn't tell her mother. What 305 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: I've realized as an adult is that a good part 306 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: of the reason why I didn't tell anybody was because 307 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: I genuinely did not believe that anybody would be on 308 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: my side. I did not believe that I would be 309 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: treated like something had happened to me. I thought that 310 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: I would be treated like I had allowed something to 311 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: happen to me. And so not only was I ashamed 312 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: of it, I was afraid of what it meant about 313 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: me and who I was and what I wanted versus 314 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: I guess what my words and my body told people 315 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: I wanted. Was there at difference? Yeah? It was not good. 316 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: It was terrible. And so you hold this secret again, 317 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: you know it lodges somewhere inside of you, which is 318 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: what secret to do. They never go away, so you 319 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: don't how anyone in your family. I guess one of 320 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: the things I was wondering about was who is your 321 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: father to you? During those years when you think of him, 322 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're making memories of him and his adoration 323 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: of you, and his pride in you and his belief 324 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: in your goodness? Did that in any way help to 325 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: kind of sustain you during that time? Did you ever 326 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: think about talking to him about it? It's actually when 327 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: things sort of shifted, um, and my idea of my 328 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: father lived more in a fantasy place than in reality, 329 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: because the reality, in reality, this thing had happened to me. 330 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: And I didn't want my idea of my father to 331 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: be anywhere near this thing that had happened to me. 332 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: I wanted them to be separate, you know. And this 333 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: is sort of the start of like issues. I started 334 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: to have the dissociation, though I wouldn't have known to 335 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: call it that then, but yeah, because in that dissociated place, 336 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: I was still twelve, and I was still the girl 337 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: that my dad saw the last time I saw him, 338 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: and I was still worthy of all of the letters 339 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: I had from him, and all of the kind things 340 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: he had said to me, and all of the belief 341 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: I had in myself and in my goodness through those moments, 342 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, in my mind, in that fantasy place, I 343 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: was still worth those things. And whenever I had to 344 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: be back in my body and reality, I was, in 345 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: one way or another forced to face the fact that 346 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't that growing, that what had happened to me 347 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: had changed me, that my body was changing, that my 348 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: perspectives were changing, and the person who I was becoming 349 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: felt so much third year than the person my dad loved. 350 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: My father wrote to me, I would say three or 351 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: four times a year, which doesn't sound like a whole 352 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: lot until kind of have the factor in that, like 353 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: inmates have to be or at least at that time, 354 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: they had to be able to afford envelopes and paper 355 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: and stamps like they have to buy them. And the 356 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: only way to get those things and also money to 357 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: make phone calls and all that stuff is by having 358 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: an institutional job. And you know, even now, like in 359 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: if you have an institutional job, you could get paid, 360 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: like around in Indiana, it's about fourteen cents an hour 361 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: and then all the prices on everything are hyked up 362 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: in there. So you gotta think about how long somebody 363 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: has to work in order to be able to afford soap, 364 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: any toiletries. They might need, phone calls, plus any media, 365 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: any form of entertainment whatsoever. It's like three or four 366 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: times a year. There's a lot of money to write 367 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: both of your children individual letters that I mean, it 368 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: was just you know, you're my favorite girl. I hope 369 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: you smile today. I hope you think about me, you smile. 370 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: I can't wait to hug you someday. I can't wait 371 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: for the day where we can see each other every day. 372 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: You know, we can see each other all the time, 373 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: and you know, and I would think, man, I can't 374 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: wait for that day either. My dad's letters were really 375 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: full of dreams for the kind of life maybe we 376 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: would have if he were here, if he hadn't done 377 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: what he'd done, and if you hadn't gone to prison, 378 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, And I really liked to dream with her. 379 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: When Ashley is fourteen, she finally learns why her father 380 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: is in prison. Her grandmother tells her, my grandmother, God rest, 381 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: her soul, tact and appropriateness was never really her her forte. 382 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: So she was just kind of upset with me because 383 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: my mother and I had gotten into an argument before 384 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: my grandma and I caught the bus to go to 385 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: the mall, and my mom told me not to talk 386 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: to my grandma about our argument because they had this 387 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: whole thing between them where, you know, even though they 388 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: were super close and always in each other's business, they 389 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: were always trying to keep the other one out of 390 00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: their business and it was a ship show, um. And 391 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: my grandma wanted me to talk about why I was 392 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: upset or why I was upset when she had gotten 393 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: there from the argument with my mom, and I didn't 394 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: want to talk about it because I didn't want it 395 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: to become a thing. And she started telling me when 396 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: we were walking around the mall that I needed to 397 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: be nicer to my mom because I didn't know what 398 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: my mom had been through, and that I didn't even 399 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: know why my father was in prison, and I just, 400 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: for some reason, I got kind of bold about, you know, 401 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: why is he a prison? You know, I wanted to know, 402 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: and my grandma did this thing where she would act 403 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: like she wasn't gonna tell me because if she told 404 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: me that I'd tell my mom, and she told me, 405 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, I won't, you know. And 406 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: we were sitting in the food court and eating really 407 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: bad americanized chat eas food, and she just told me, 408 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: she told me, your dad's in prison because he raped 409 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: two women, and then she just looked at me. She 410 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: kept looking at me, and I knew that she was 411 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: looking at me to watch my reaction and make sure 412 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: that I didn't get what she would consider hysterical, which 413 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: would be showing any emotion at all. So I raised 414 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: my eyebrows enough to be like, huh, you know, and 415 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: then I just went back to eating my food because 416 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: it was the only way that I could not look 417 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: at her looking at me and think my thoughts and 418 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: have the moment to process. And then we took the 419 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: bus home, and I, you know, I had to sort 420 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: of spend the rest of the time acting as normal 421 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: as possible, because if I had been even a little 422 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: bit off, it would have been problem. And then when 423 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: I got home, I called my best friend at the time. 424 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: Brent had told him that I was going to come over, 425 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: and I did, and I told him what I had 426 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: just learned about my dad, and he just helped me, 427 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: and I just cried and cried and cried because I 428 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: was devastated. I was so devastated. Have you had in 429 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: your earlier years fantasy is about what he might be 430 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: in prison for or did you really just kind of 431 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: shut that down for yourself when you were a kid. 432 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I had all kinds of ideas about why 433 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: he might need it there, you know, and reasons and 434 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: excuses for why he may have done those things and 435 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: why he may have gotten wrongfully accused or anything. And 436 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: the one thing I didn't want it to be this 437 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: is this. Almost anything else, I felt like I could 438 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: find some way to rationalize it, Like my brain could 439 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: find some way to think that maybe it's this, maybe 440 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: it's this specific way that this could happen where it's 441 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: not really his fault. But there's no way. There's no 442 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: way that could happen with me. There's just no way. 443 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: And it forever altered, you know, my perception of my dad, 444 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, forever altered my perception of him. He had to, 445 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: it was always going to, but that was the moment 446 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: that it happened for me. Yeah, there's a passage in 447 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: your book where right after you know your grandmother's told 448 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: you this, and you go over to Brett's house and 449 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: you write, my father's crimes repulsed me, and I felt 450 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: for some reason that I should have known better. I 451 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: convinced myself something about his letters, his drawings, or the 452 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: tone of his voice should have revealed to me what 453 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: he had done, but I hadn't noticed, because I hadn't 454 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: wanted to. And then you write, my naivete shamed me, 455 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: and I accepted that shame as my own. In the 456 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: dark at night, the saddest parts of me assumed my 457 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: father's crimes were the source of the crime committed upon me. Now, 458 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: that is just so complex and layered and sort of 459 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: boomerangs all the way back to it's a bad world. 460 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: It's a dangerous world. Your body causes danger, women's bodies 461 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: caused danger. When you think about it now and you've 462 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: processed so much and you've done so much work, do 463 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: you feel that that lurking secret of the reason why 464 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: your father was convicted and sent to prison, that that 465 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: was kind of like the noxious gas in the air, 466 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: where the whole idea of men are danger us and 467 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: you're internalizing things so much as being bad or good, 468 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: yourself as bad you know, the fault being yours. It 469 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: just feels very knotted up in what wasn't being said 470 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: for all those years. Mm hmm. I think it's a 471 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: lot of it. But I also have to consider the 472 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: fact that my grandmother had five girls. You know, I 473 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: have four aunts. We all lived in the same neighborhood, 474 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: were like all there together, and they all have daughters. Nobody, 475 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, except for except for one aunt, only has sons, 476 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: but everybody else has daughters. There's a lot of women, 477 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: and my family has a history of women who have 478 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: been violated, who have been assaulted, who have been beaten, 479 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: who have been cut, who have been the victims of 480 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: people in and outside of their own family. So that 481 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: legacy of pain and of expected pain from men, the 482 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: foundation for that had been laid long before anything happened, 483 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, with my dad. But I think that for 484 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: me personally, it's not necessarily that it affirmed their fears 485 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: about men in general, are about the world in general. 486 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: For me, it affirmed my fears about me, that something 487 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: really was wrong with me, that I was bad, because 488 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: the only person who had ever looked at me like 489 00:35:50,760 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: I was good had done such a terrible thing. M Yeah, 490 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: we'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 491 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: In the years that followed this shattering, discovery actually focuses 492 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: on healing, on having healthy relationships with men, but perhaps 493 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: more importantly, a healthy relationship with herself. I gave myself 494 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: therapy as an eighteenth birthday president. Even before that, you know, 495 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: I was lucky to have a couple of adults around 496 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: me who were not counselors or anything like that, but 497 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: who listened to me, you know, who just listened to 498 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: me when I was hurting, when I was scared. I 499 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: had a couple of people who I could count on 500 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: and who would listen to me, who were adults. And 501 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: I got therapy as soon as I could, and I 502 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: stayed in therapy for as long as I could, and 503 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: I just never stopped doing that. I think something in me, 504 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: some part of me, realized that I didn't necessarily need 505 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: my goodness to be affirmed by somebody else. I needed 506 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: to trust myself enough to see it in myself, to 507 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: find it in myself and believe it. And that wasn't 508 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: going to happen without a lot of work. And I 509 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 1: don't know if it's because I'm an oldest daughter, or 510 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: a Capricorn or what it is. But work has never 511 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: been the scariest thing to me. You know. The scariest 512 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: thing to me has been giving in or or giving up, 513 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: or deciding that I'm not worthy, not battling that thought 514 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: that I already have, you know, getting into it. A 515 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: lot of time when I was growing up, I felt 516 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: like my mom was giving in to other people, to 517 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: what they thought, to what they wanted. You know, I 518 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: felt like my mom traded herself in a lot and 519 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: didn't get a lot back. And if I didn't know 520 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: exactly what I wanted to do, I knew that I 521 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: didn't want to do that. When we talk about identity 522 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 1: and sort of how we become ourselves, you know, sometimes 523 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: if we're lucky, we're partly formed by positive role models 524 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: and modeling other people's behavior sometimes, and I don't I 525 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: think it doesn't get talked about enough. We form ourselves 526 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: kind of in opposition to well, I don't know what 527 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: I do want it to look like, but I do 528 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: know what I don't want it to look like. Yeah, absolutely, 529 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: you know. When I was growing up, one of the 530 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: things that was really really common were movies where adults 531 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: forgot what it was like to be kids and their 532 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: lives fell apart. M hm. I guess I just watched 533 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: the adults around me at the time do things that 534 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: I thought, like, you know, you've forgotten what it was 535 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: like to be a kid. You wouldn't do that if 536 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: you remembered what it was like to be a kid. 537 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: You wouldn't say that. You wouldn't behave that way if 538 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: you remembered what it was like to be a kid. Now, 539 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: as an adult, I have a more sophisticated view of that, 540 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: which is more so like, you wouldn't say that if 541 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: you didn't kind of hate your child self, if you 542 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: didn't kind of think your child self was weak and 543 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: think that they deserved to be hurt or harmed. That's 544 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: why you think it's okay to hurt hard kids. It's 545 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: because you think you deserved it. When you work, I 546 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: knew I was watching a lot of things happen that 547 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: I did not want to repeat. It's not like I 548 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: was a perfect kid. It's you know, it's not like 549 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,439 Speaker 1: I was a specifically delightful and well behaved kid. Like 550 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, I was a kid, and there were things 551 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 1: I did when I was in middle school. I kept 552 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: a box of note cards where every time my mom 553 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: did something that I thought was a bad parent moment, 554 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,919 Speaker 1: I wrote it down. And I was going to keep 555 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: that box until I was a parent, so that I 556 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: could go through it and remember all of the things 557 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: that I did not want to do to my kids. 558 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: And one day, after keeping this box for months, almost 559 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: a year, one day it suddenly occurred to me that 560 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: if my mom ever found this box, it would, I thought, 561 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: destroy her emotionally, and so I threw it away. I 562 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: threw away the whole box of car that I have 563 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: been keeping because I didn't want to do that. I 564 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: also didn't want to hurt her. And like, that is 565 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: kind of the struggle of the book and even like 566 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: of my life, which is that you know, I'm already 567 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: making notes about what I don't want to do, and 568 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: all in that list is hurt my mother. And those 569 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: two desires can exist in the same place, but the 570 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: outcome can't always exist in the same place. Yeah, that's 571 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: really that's really beautifully put. Ashley does not visit her 572 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: father from the time she learns of the reason for 573 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: his imprisonment at the age of fourteen until she's twenty five. 574 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: Her mother is sick, and she becomes painfully aware that 575 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: she may soon be without any parent at all. She 576 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,959 Speaker 1: asks her friend Trent to drive her to prison, which 577 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: is three hours from where she lives. The visit lasts 578 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: two hours and forty seven minutes. Ashley is her father's 579 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 1: first visitor in five years, and in that visit, which 580 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: is filled with mutual kindness and affection and a lot 581 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: of catching up, it becomes clear that it is possible 582 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: that someone you love can do heinous and completely unacceptable things, 583 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: things that have impacted your life tremendously, but still be 584 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 1: someone you love. It was just so much information at once, 585 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: and then you know, to get into the room, to 586 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: see him, to have him stand up because he sees me, 587 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: and to be able to hug him, but then not 588 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: be able to touch him, you know, like anymore, like 589 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: not be able to touch his hand or anything like 590 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: that's against the rules. And it was just trying to 591 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: talk to each other, just trying to figure out the 592 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: language of that kind of anticipation for a conversation, for 593 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: a connection with another person. It is a wild, wild 594 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: feeling that in some ways will is are indescribable even 595 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: to myself, but It was a good visit. You know. 596 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: I got to talk to my dad about my friends 597 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: and what I like to read and what I like 598 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,720 Speaker 1: to listen, to the fact that I fancied myself a writer, 599 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: and that I was writing about me and writing about 600 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: him and writing about the world around me, and having 601 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: him just want more, more and more, to just want 602 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: me to say more and more and more about who 603 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: I am and what I'm up to and all of that. 604 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: It was hetty, It was wild in terms of your 605 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: writing about him. What were you hoping for from him? 606 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: You know, I was hoping for him to sort of 607 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: give me his blessing, to give me his permission to 608 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: write about those things. I don't know that if I 609 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,760 Speaker 1: hadn't gotten it, that that means I wouldn't have kept 610 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: writing about it, you know, because I know how I am. Um, 611 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: I don't think that would have happened. But I think 612 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: what I was looking for in that moment was sort 613 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: of just the affirmation of my right to do it, 614 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: of my right to talk about what I saw, what 615 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: I heard, what happened. Um what I know, what I 616 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: don't know, what my life had been up until that point. 617 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,800 Speaker 1: I wanted him to affirm that, like, yeah, that that's 618 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: yours and you get to do what you want with that. 619 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: And that's what I got. That is such an extension 620 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: of the way that you described the way that he 621 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 1: looked at you, you know, when when you were seven 622 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: years old, kind of a different version of that. After 623 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,879 Speaker 1: this visit, Ashley is empowered as a writer, and she's 624 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: carving out her own life in New York City with 625 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: her partner Kelly. The city embraces her in that magical 626 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,280 Speaker 1: way that can happen when you're right where you're supposed 627 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: to be, when the world and the people in it 628 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: are the opposite of danger, when they find you and 629 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: guide you and mentor you. She's with someone she loves, 630 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: and she's existing in both worlds, loving and honoring the 631 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: complexities of her family and her past, but also creating 632 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: distance and living in her new present, carving out her future. 633 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: She writes, I could exist in both as me fully me. 634 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: I think at a certain point what I did really 635 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: was just accept reality. I accepted what the reality was, 636 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: and the reality was that I'm a bad pretend and 637 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,280 Speaker 1: I'm a bad liar, and I don't like to pretend, 638 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: and I don't like to lie. And I didn't want 639 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:13,919 Speaker 1: to be around my family as a palatable version of 640 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: me and have to lie to them about who I 641 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,760 Speaker 1: was and how I felt and what I thought. And 642 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, for a long time, I just thought my 643 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,319 Speaker 1: family couldn't handle that. I thought they wouldn't allow it. 644 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,760 Speaker 1: I thought that it couldn't be because it had never 645 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: really been before. And I had to have a bigger 646 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,760 Speaker 1: imagination about what they could handle, what I could handle, 647 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: and the kind of boundaries that would allow us to 648 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 1: remain in each other's lives. And when I expanded my 649 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: imagination about those possibilities and allowed for some of those experience, 650 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: it worked out. It really worked out. We had a 651 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,959 Speaker 1: family reunion a month after in my book came out. 652 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: I went, it was great. We had a great time. 653 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: Everybody was great. They were proud of me. What a 654 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: beautiful idea, the idea of expanding the imagination. Sometimes we're 655 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: limited by what we can imagine. Yet other times, in 656 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 1: the most unlikely ways, even the hardest things can work out. 657 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: Here's Ashley reading the words her father spoke to her 658 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,399 Speaker 1: that day of her visit in prison, words that gave 659 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:38,320 Speaker 1: her permission. So, look, I don't know what all you're writing, 660 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 1: And maybe it don't make me sound too good, but 661 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: that's not your fault. That's on me. This is something 662 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: I can give you if you need it. You need 663 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: my permission, you got it. Do me a favor, actually, 664 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: and you write about you and me. Just tell the truth, 665 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: your truth. Don't worry about nobody's feelings, especially really not mine. 666 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,839 Speaker 1: You've gotta be tough to tell your truth. But it's 667 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 1: the only thing we're doing next to Loving some money. 668 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Molly 669 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: z a Core is the story editor and Dylan Fagan 670 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,320 Speaker 1: is the executive producer. If you have a family secret 671 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,880 Speaker 1: you'd like to share, please leave us a voicemail and 672 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,280 Speaker 1: your story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our number 673 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: is one eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You 674 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 1: can also find me on Instagram at Danny writer. And 675 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more about the story that 676 00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:19,759 Speaker 1: inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance. For more 677 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 678 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,720 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.