WEBVTT - The Creator Economy Grows Up: How Jellysmack Helps Talent Gain Scale 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.680 Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcast featuring conversations with 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.680 industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.560 Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.000 guest is Sean Atkins, president of Jellysmack. Jellysmack is a 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.520 prime example of a company that is active in an 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.040 emerging business sector that I have been watching with great interest. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:36.120 The creator economy, the wild West of social media personalities, 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.600 is really starting to take shape as a content marketplace 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:44.800 unto itself. With market structure comes support and administrative services 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:48.640 like those offered by Jellysmack. I'll let Atkins explain in 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.800 detail what Jellysmack offers its creator clients. It's a mix 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:58.760 of talent scouting, marketing and content distribution services. Atkins brings 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.600 good perspective on how the creator economy is maturing thanks 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.840 to his long resume as a digital leader in traditional media. 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.920 Before joining Jellysmack in twenty twenty one, he worked as 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:14.240 Chief Digital Officer for Discovery Communications and served a hitch 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.720 as president of MTV. He was also CEO of RTL's 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.959 Digital Video Group and senior vice president of New Media 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.800 Programming for HBO. That's a title that signals how long 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.679 ago he held that job. Atkins and I spoke at 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.200 Varieties Offices in late August, just a few days after 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.399 we both attended the Streamy Awards that recognize influencers and 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.240 digital creators. That event proved to be a jumping off 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:47.000 point for the conversation coming up right after this break, 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.440 and we're back with a conversation about the creator economy 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.600 with Sean Atkins, president of jif Smack. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:03.920 What did you see on stage? 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.360 What did you see in the caliber of talent that 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.400 was at the event that said that tells you something 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.280 larger about the creator economy and where it stands right 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:14.839 now in twenty twenty three. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.160 Yeah. I think the first thing, as someone who's been 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.919 in both the creator economy and the traditional side of business, 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.519 is an indication of how much the industry is exploding matures. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.160 It felt like I'd gone to the Emmys or the 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.040 Golden Globes or to the OSCAR that felt like a 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.840 traditional award show with the red carpets and people mingling 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:36.280 and sometimes too much alcohol given at the tables, alcohol 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:38.679 and cosplay. What could go on to say, you know 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.680 the same amount of like insider jokes that was happening there. 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.640 You saw, you saw talent that would have had huge 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.600 businesses for decades in the business and emerging ones. I 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.840 think the thing that was a little bit differentiated is 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.840 the absolute diversity of that talent base. Right. We talk 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:56.880 about in the traditional side of business with the desire 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.280 for diversity and the struggles we're having as an industry, 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.120 but you look at the streamings, they don't have that 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.160 problem at all. Right, Like, there was absolutely by type 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.120 of creators that were there, how seasoned they were, how 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:09.840 senior they were, they were new, they were old. You 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.800 had the entire operation kind of outlined there, and it 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.720 was really impressive to see now the whole industry come 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.240 together and get celebrated, but sort of the indication of 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.639 the level of maturity that's happening in the market. 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.240 You could not you'd have to be blind not to 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.640 notice that the creator economy is creating all kinds of 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.640 lanes for all kinds of diverse talents. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:31.320 Some of the big. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.800 Winners were totally new names to me, I will completely acknowledged, 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:40.240 but you know, groups like AMP and RDC World were 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.920 very very clear that this is you know, truly grassroots 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.880 content that is being wheeled up by fandom and that 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.600 you could really see, you know, very writ large there, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.480 you know, like like a traditional word show. 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.200 There were cheering sections. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.520 But you could sense that in the way that you know, 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.720 the streams again just as a microcosm has evolved, and 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.160 talent is getting up there and thanking their teams right 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.080 and their manager and it's you know, we can see 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.120 from our vantage point of variety covering the content business 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.840 in the last call it you know, probably accelerated by 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.760 the pandemic, like most everything else in our lives these days, 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.520 but the emergence of social media not just as a 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.680 platform for people to come out and then translate to 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.440 books and TV shows, but truly making serious a significant 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:39.200 living and a significant impact unto in social media, unto themselves. 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.320 How is that emergence of that economy? How is that 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:45.600 an opportunity for jellysmack Well. 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.400 I think the thing that first people need to understand 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.719 is that the scale of what's going on with talent 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.600 and with the businesses they're building and the career economy 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.760 is most people generally don't really understand it. Right, If 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.240 you think about the headline you might see in a 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.400 writing magazine like the Rock signs twenty million dollars deal 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.080 to be interfeated. That's a front page news that happens 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.600 like every day in the creator space with creators that 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:08.920 people have never heard of it. You know, you talk 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.000 about mister Peace, who's does very well, but there's you 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.400 look at the dude perfect team that has not only 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.240 a great digital business, they have a huge touring business. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.080 You can look at other ones like Charlotte Doebray representives 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.240 a comedian who's not doing so on the platform. She's 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.839 actually self funding her own pilots in series to develop 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.159 for television. So there's this immense amount of kind of 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.279 success in capital for creators who actually completely control the 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:34.800 entire means of production and the means of distribution, which 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.839 really doesn't happen in the traditional media. So that's the 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.520 most fascinating thing you see. But the level below and 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.880 where Jellysmack comes in is with that explosion of talent 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:49.520 and the maturing of that business. Like any great entrepreneurial ecosystem, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.560 whether you look at restaurants being minted, or you look 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.560 at real estate or anything that has a large entrepreneuri closs, 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.120 there's an infrastructure layer that has to exist so those 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.279 entrepreneurs can skip, because then the challenge for the creator class. 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.560 And I was actually having this conversation last night with 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.719 some people who are both actors and creators, and they 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:09.560 were talking about the difference between they started in the 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:10.880 acting side of the world and they were used to 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:12.520 like there as a DP, as an editor and all 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.159 this infrastructure, and then they became a creator and there's none. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.000 I'm setting up my ring line, They're sitting everything, And 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.480 they were talking about how it's probably easier to start 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.680 as a creator because you don't know that infrastructure exists, 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.240 so you sort of build this DNA and you own 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.159 all the means of production. But the contrary to that 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.680 is creators who grow up in that ECOSYSM have a 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.240 tendency to confuse the mean of production as the creative itself. Right, 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.000 So if you think you have to edit and write 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.800 and do everything to scale to multiple platforms, it's very complicated. 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:43.480 Just like if you and I started a restaurant decided 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.240 we were also going to build an organic farm and 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.360 make silverware and build we would have a trouble scaling. Right. 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.520 That's where Jellysmack comes because creators are in that moment 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:53.040 right now where they're realizing like, oh, I got to 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.520 hire editors, or I need capital to build a studio, 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:57.560 or I want to build a merchandise line, or I 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.760 want to build a touring business. They need partners who 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.800 understand that scale, what that infrastructure needs to look like. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.160 As what Jilly Smack does. We use all of our 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.480 AI and technology to develop services that identify these creators 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:11.400 at an early stage and then support them so they 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.200 can grow into real, viable businesses across multiple areas. 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.600 And where are you seeing outside of like you know, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.400 signing a book deal, signing a TV show development pact 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.120 or something. Where where are you seeing those big, those 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:27.240 big twenty million level or you know, commensurate dollars. 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:28.920 Where are you seeing those deals? 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.800 So the detail is so it's interesting. So this is 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.160 the thing I think gets a little bit confusing when 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.200 we look at the creator economy from a traditional media lens, right, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.240 because we look at it from an entertainment perspective, and 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.880 there is a sizeable amount of that. They're making videos, 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.000 so that makes sense, But the other things you have 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:50.520 to realize the creator economy is actually transversally impacting a 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.040 lot of different communities. And so when you talk about 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.160 a creator, they might be on YouTube and they get 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.240 ad revenue from YouTube, or they might get brand revenues, right, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.440 so they dual stream like they have a direct relationship 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.600 with brands. But then they might come from not like 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.680 an entertainment vertical, like for example, we have people who 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.720 are in the legal space and they make a ton 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.040 of money from referrals into their law firm. Or you 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:18.040 might have creators who for example, one creator who Blacaltes, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.880 who has such a big business that she's got a 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.200 giant target retail partnership. Now, if you're looking for anything 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.239 in the yoga space, but you can go through almost 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.000 every vertical you can think about, and there's a creator 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.760 with a very dominant position, whether it's real estate, you're 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.400 looking at legal, you're looking at retail. We have creators 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.480 like Patrick Starr who have big beauty lines. We have 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.000 creators like, for example, Karen Nate. They are creators who 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.360 do travel. Now, travel and traditional doesn't work that well anymore, right, 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.560 travel channel doesn't really do travel anymore. No, we don't 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.560 have people running around doing travel logs anymore. But in 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.719 there for their ecosystem and their audience. Not only do 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.000 they really have an audience who follows them for the 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.480 information of pro but they're so well now they have 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.839 an app and a business that helps people book travel 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.679 at a discounted rate. There's like something you wouldn't see 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.880 in a traditional meaning is where they use the power 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.120 of their distribution actually build whole business credibility and credibility 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.400 in those areas. And so it's really hard to find 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.600 actually a vertical that doesn't have creators pretty dominant in 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.000 almost any industry, Which is what the thing when people 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:22.960 I don't think they understand the size of the impact 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:24.920 that's happening is it's not just in the media business, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:26.920 literally happening to every industry at the same time. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.160 So it sounds I mean, it's clearly it's clearly star 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.360 driven at the very top. You've got to have millions 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.160 of followers and it's got it. You've got to have 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.280 that personality. But it sounds like what you're saying is 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.480 you can make a kind of a call it a 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.960 middle class living, you know, a load to mid six 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:47.800 figures with some savvy and obviously some success and some luck. 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.320 But that does exist, or you can. 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.320 If you look at it from a pure media business. Right, 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.559 Media is media, Right, it has a power a lotl dynamic. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.199 There is ten percent five percent depending which VERTICALI like 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.880 a thing as it correct has an outside control of 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:07.920 what's going on. The difference in the creator space is 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.720 that you can, to your point, you can build a 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.679 middle class lifestyle. I mean just even in Jellysmack, I 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.079 think it's about eighty percent of our clients have made 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.319 over two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and we're an 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.480 ancillary business to them. We're not their core business. You 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.080 think about that like that, I think something like five 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.240 times the size of the media and US income, So 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.480 it's not small dollars. And again as an emerging market, 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.079 right with ever growing consumption, ever growing creators coming into it. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:36.280 The thing we know that happens as markets like the 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.360 middle class just starts to scale, right. I often tell 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.199 people like it's kind of like China. People used to 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.000 question twenty years ago, is China ever going to get 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.000 past the power al of the concentration on top? And 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.080 clearly we know the answer to that. The answer is yes, 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.160 is there middle class the size of the US middle class. No, 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.559 but will it be yes, And the same thing will 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.560 happen in the creator space over time, just because it 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.520 isn't only playing in the media space, right, because if 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.400 you're playing in the larger economies, know, ultimately you're talking 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.400 about essentially the creator space will impact everything in the GDP. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:06.560 So it's hard to argue that that's not going to 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.120 have a pretty tremendous mid market impact over time. Yeah, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:11.800 there's correct. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.720 Let me ask you, and just to boil it down, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:22.280 Jelly Smack fundamentally offers people like crucial marketing and distribution support. 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:23.800 Would that be a fair character? Yeah? O. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.439 The way to think about it is that we are 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.839 a detection engine on AURA that finds creators who are 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:33.360 most likely to have their content either distribute to another 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.680 form of monetization or another platform. We got our beginning 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.800 because we're actually founded by three creators who are huge fans. 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:41.720 I always have to clarify this from my American ads, 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:46.440 but football European not American. And you know, back in 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.640 twenty sixteen when they founded a company and social video 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.640 isn't what we knew it today, they had antypothesis it 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.880 would become what it would be today low those many 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:54.280 years ago. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:55.680 Business moves fast. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:01.120 When we were both twenty the they thought to like, oh, 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:02.520 I think this is going to be a big opportunity, 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.640 but I also think that technology will be a big 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.480 way to grow it. And so they built to about 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.640 four billion streams in multiple verticals. So they started in football, 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:12.840 which I always said, and so the next logical one 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.160 they went into his beauty because that's what sports guys 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.240 do with the video gaming entertainment. So they really figured 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.480 out how to build content by identifying the type of 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.120 talent most likely to resonate across these platforms. That technology 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.880 is what other creators started coming to. Initially for Jelly'smack 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.000 go like, Hey, I'm struggling as an entrepreneur. I have 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.559 I'm completely dedicated to the algorithm and distribution of one platform. 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.280 I spend every waking moment trying to speak to my 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.840 audience developed this business. Can you give me time, effort 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.160 and efficiency And so the big thing that Jelly Smack 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.640 ultimately says when we partner with our creators, like, look, 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.160 it's a big back end in terms of the tech 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:49.360 we can bring it. At the end of the day 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.840 when we give you is ability to de risk and 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.600 move your content to multiple platforms and ultimately expand your 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.760 business so that you can be not dependent on just 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:58.680 one source of income. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:03.000 Yeah, which versification is the standard? Is the standard business 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:03.400 across me? 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.760 So let me ask you, is there there's a selectivity 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.840 on your part. So there's also a talent almost a 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.960 talent scouting it's correct part on the part of Jelly Smack. 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:13.320 The way to sort of think about it is that, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.160 you know, I always like to use analogies that our 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.520 own creators have used for me when they explain our 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:18.880 own business, and like, oh, that makes sense, I'm going 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:20.920 to use that. You know. One of them said is like, look, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.120 you're a little bit like universal music. Right at the 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.559 end of the day. You sometimes find them when they're 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.719 busking in a subway, right. And we have creators we 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.040 found and we had like five fifty thousand subs and 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.760 we turn them into multimillion revenue companies in a matter 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.880 of like months. And then we have other creators like 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.040 mister Beasts or who have such scale or called the 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.720 Taylor Swift as is the universal music, that have such 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.040 scale that they could kind of do if they wanted 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.079 to the complexity of what we do for them, but 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.439 they're like, I need a partner who has scale expertise, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.280 and so that's really the best way of talking about 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.079 Our detection systems are kind of like an A and 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.400 R group that are trying to find the talent, to 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.520 identify where they're most likely to be successful, and then 0:13:57.640 --> 0:13:59.360 provide them to services to help them scale. 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.400 What I'm hearing you're saying is that you do a 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.560 lot of matchmaking. If you somebody that's big in the 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.280 beauty space, you find the beauty people and try to 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:09.040 try to bring that right. 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.240 Now, you want to identify what the most likely thing 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.120 is because is interesting is that people ask us a 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.280 lot like what genre should I be in? And there's 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.679 actually kind of not an answer to that because it's like, well, 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:19.280 it depends on. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:20.480 What you can ask that question. 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:25.560 You may not be built to be a social media. 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.920 The thing is all artists have a spark of something 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.040 they want to communicate. So I say, start there, what 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.200 are you? What do you want to do? I said, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.440 Because again, the thing that's fascining about the creator space, 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.160 like we have we have creators. Charlottever is a great 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.160 example of thin unbelievable talented community and absolutely talented writer, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.800 absolutely incredible on camera, and but it's so successful in 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.240 our creator space, she's literally funding her own sitcom, right, 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:49.960 But you think about that from an empowerment of the 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:51.920 creative and an attachment to the autist with that sort 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.840 of changes in the dynamic. But at the same time, 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:56.800 we also have people in our thing and actually one 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.560 of the one the stream is right who do Invisible 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.680 People People is a five h three C charity and 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.600 just by passionately communicating about homelessness, which you would think 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.200 is not something I if I went to flon I 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.160 want to do a series on homelessness, they can be like, yeah, no, no, 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.400 it's going to watch it. But yet this person's found 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.280 a way to use the storytelling about the impact of 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.000 homelessness around the nation to build a large viewership that 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.920 is powering a business that's solving the problems that is covering, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.880 but you wouldn't necessarily think about it as an entertainment vehicle. 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.560 Right right. That's interesting. 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.120 Can I drill down a little bit in terms of 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.080 Jellysmax business. Do you work on like a commission basis? 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.040 Do you work on a fee basis. 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.560 With yes the answer because we play in so many 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.800 different lines of business and so many different verticals. So 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.200 you think about it, we go from helping you identify 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:52.600 an ID eight to all the way to distribution, marketing, promotion, infrastructure, financing, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.600 so we basically play in the whole value chain. For 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.320 some of our creators, most of our products we have 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.840 a shared revels new model where we take the capital 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.080 risk on their behalf and then sharing the upside so 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.720 that we keep our interests alive. But all the cases 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.480 will take like a rev share of some sort of 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.040 split that we do. It's typically, I would say the 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.120 model it looks more like is probably like consumer products, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.360 where essentially we have a relationship over a period of time, 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.040 where we have a licensing relationship up to some of 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.840 their intellectual profit or period of time, and then we 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:23.120 help them monetize it. 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.040 How many people do you have with jelly'smack now? How 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:27.600 many employees? 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.880 We have about five hundred people in our major centers 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.440 are Paris, where the founders are originally from London, New York, 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:37.720 Las Vegas, and. 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:44.760 La Don't even think of scrolling away. We'll be right 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:55.400 back after this break and we're back with more from 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.920 JELLY'SMAC president Sean Atkins. 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.080 There's so much right now you know in the ether 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:06.240 about the about the biggest of social media platforms. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.280 Obviously the you. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.480 Know, the site formerly known as Twitter x has been 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.480 making a lot of moves. Where do you feel the Google's, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.840 the Facebook's Youtubes? Where are they right now in this 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:20.760 moment of the creator economy? Do you feel like there's 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.760 an understanding that this is really starting to become its 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.440 own big thing unto itself. 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.480 I don't think they're really having a sudden epivity. They've 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.200 known for a long time, and you thinking about face, 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.119 I guess YouTube. They've been paying out billions and billions 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.080 of dollars to creators on an annual basis for over 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.080 a decade. Right now, you know, Facebook is on a 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.879 pace in a uh you just last announcedlash your reels 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:47.600 as a products is a year old and Mark just 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.760 said it makes ten billion dollars in revenue. That's like 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.480 it's a pretty incredible ramp in one year. So it's 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.159 more that they know they have a significant dependency or 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.639 symbiotic relationship depending on whose side you're asking you what 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.800 day in that dynamic and trying to figure out look 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.960 their business. They're trying to figure out how to maximize 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.800 their margins by leveraging creator content, and creators are always 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.000 trying to figure out how to sort of maximize their 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.480 margins against platforms who have a little bit more power 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:19.240 than they do in the dynamic. I think that for creators, 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.320 their biggest concern in the grand scheme of thing is 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.239 we sort of pain we saw. I was like, how 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.360 do I manage multiple platforms at one time? And then 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.600 sort of what is always platform uncertainty right that they 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.040 their equivalent of in the television business or feature film business, 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.320 like your film doesn't work? Is a platform changes this algorithm? 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.159 One day? You were making success one day and the 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.640 next day you don't. Saw this happened with YouTube actually 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.320 did it to its own business this year, where it's like, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.600 I'm so worried about TikTok, I want to move a 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.719 significant amount of my traffic to short form. Right, So 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.399 you saw very significant players who are making millions of 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.040 dollars a year be like I just lost thirty percent 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.280 to my bottom line. This is a period of time. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.240 This is a sequence of time. So I think more 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.960 of the debt it's creators are trying to navigate platforms. Well, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.480 platforms are mostly trying to figure out two problems. One 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.480 is how do we manage in a world where we 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.240 have a lot of like competition from other platforms because 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.080 people always assume they're like once YouTube, Facebook control things, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.240 nothing that's going to be around again. And the TikTok exploded, 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.680 right seven years another platform comes are right, it comes, 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.080 it comes along, so right now, I'd say the video 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.480 platforms are all trying to figure out what do they 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.760 do about short form, right, and they're all doing different 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.199 levels of experimentation. I think that obviously TikTok TikTok is 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.320 doing with its systemic issues of like, well we're going 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:38.640 to be banned, are we're not going to be banned? 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:40.479 Or what's happening with us? 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.720 How do you see the kind of the dials going 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.359 between the amount of time people are spending on social 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:51.119 media on TikTok just purely watching on creator platform you know, 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:52.680 creator friendly platforms. 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:54.679 There was a day where ninety percent of ad revenue 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.080 into newspapers. Yeah, yeah, because that's where attention was, right 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.840