1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: guest is Sean Atkins, president of Jellysmack. Jellysmack is a 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: prime example of a company that is active in an 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: emerging business sector that I have been watching with great interest. 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: The creator economy, the wild West of social media personalities, 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: is really starting to take shape as a content marketplace 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: unto itself. With market structure comes support and administrative services 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: like those offered by Jellysmack. I'll let Atkins explain in 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: detail what Jellysmack offers its creator clients. It's a mix 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: of talent scouting, marketing and content distribution services. Atkins brings 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: good perspective on how the creator economy is maturing thanks 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: to his long resume as a digital leader in traditional media. 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: Before joining Jellysmack in twenty twenty one, he worked as 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Chief Digital Officer for Discovery Communications and served a hitch 17 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: as president of MTV. He was also CEO of RTL's 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: Digital Video Group and senior vice president of New Media 19 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: Programming for HBO. That's a title that signals how long 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: ago he held that job. Atkins and I spoke at 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: Varieties Offices in late August, just a few days after 22 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: we both attended the Streamy Awards that recognize influencers and 23 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: digital creators. That event proved to be a jumping off 24 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: point for the conversation coming up right after this break, 25 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: and we're back with a conversation about the creator economy 26 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: with Sean Atkins, president of jif Smack. 27 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: What did you see on stage? 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 3: What did you see in the caliber of talent that 29 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 3: was at the event that said that tells you something 30 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: larger about the creator economy and where it stands right 31 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 3: now in twenty twenty three. 32 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. I think the first thing, as someone who's been 33 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 4: in both the creator economy and the traditional side of business, 34 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 4: is an indication of how much the industry is exploding matures. 35 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 4: It felt like I'd gone to the Emmys or the 36 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 4: Golden Globes or to the OSCAR that felt like a 37 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 4: traditional award show with the red carpets and people mingling 38 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 4: and sometimes too much alcohol given at the tables, alcohol 39 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 4: and cosplay. What could go on to say, you know 40 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 4: the same amount of like insider jokes that was happening there. 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 4: You saw, you saw talent that would have had huge 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 4: businesses for decades in the business and emerging ones. I 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 4: think the thing that was a little bit differentiated is 44 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 4: the absolute diversity of that talent base. Right. We talk 45 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 4: about in the traditional side of business with the desire 46 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 4: for diversity and the struggles we're having as an industry, 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 4: but you look at the streamings, they don't have that 48 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 4: problem at all. Right, Like, there was absolutely by type 49 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 4: of creators that were there, how seasoned they were, how 50 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 4: senior they were, they were new, they were old. You 51 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 4: had the entire operation kind of outlined there, and it 52 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 4: was really impressive to see now the whole industry come 53 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 4: together and get celebrated, but sort of the indication of 54 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 4: the level of maturity that's happening in the market. 55 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 3: You could not you'd have to be blind not to 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 3: notice that the creator economy is creating all kinds of 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: lanes for all kinds of diverse talents. 58 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: Some of the big. 59 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: Winners were totally new names to me, I will completely acknowledged, 60 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: but you know, groups like AMP and RDC World were 61 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: very very clear that this is you know, truly grassroots 62 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: content that is being wheeled up by fandom and that 63 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: you could really see, you know, very writ large there, 64 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: you know, like like a traditional word show. 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: There were cheering sections. 66 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: But you could sense that in the way that you know, 67 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: the streams again just as a microcosm has evolved, and 68 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 3: talent is getting up there and thanking their teams right 69 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: and their manager and it's you know, we can see 70 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: from our vantage point of variety covering the content business 71 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 3: in the last call it you know, probably accelerated by 72 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: the pandemic, like most everything else in our lives these days, 73 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 3: but the emergence of social media not just as a 74 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: platform for people to come out and then translate to 75 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: books and TV shows, but truly making serious a significant 76 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 3: living and a significant impact unto in social media, unto themselves. 77 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: How is that emergence of that economy? How is that 78 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 3: an opportunity for jellysmack Well. 79 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: I think the thing that first people need to understand 80 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 4: is that the scale of what's going on with talent 81 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 4: and with the businesses they're building and the career economy 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 4: is most people generally don't really understand it. Right, If 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 4: you think about the headline you might see in a 84 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 4: writing magazine like the Rock signs twenty million dollars deal 85 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 4: to be interfeated. That's a front page news that happens 86 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 4: like every day in the creator space with creators that 87 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 4: people have never heard of it. You know, you talk 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 4: about mister Peace, who's does very well, but there's you 89 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: look at the dude perfect team that has not only 90 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 4: a great digital business, they have a huge touring business. 91 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 4: You can look at other ones like Charlotte Doebray representives 92 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 4: a comedian who's not doing so on the platform. She's 93 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 4: actually self funding her own pilots in series to develop 94 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 4: for television. So there's this immense amount of kind of 95 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 4: success in capital for creators who actually completely control the 96 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 4: entire means of production and the means of distribution, which 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 4: really doesn't happen in the traditional media. So that's the 98 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 4: most fascinating thing you see. But the level below and 99 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 4: where Jellysmack comes in is with that explosion of talent 100 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 4: and the maturing of that business. Like any great entrepreneurial ecosystem, 101 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 4: whether you look at restaurants being minted, or you look 102 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 4: at real estate or anything that has a large entrepreneuri closs, 103 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: there's an infrastructure layer that has to exist so those 104 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 4: entrepreneurs can skip, because then the challenge for the creator class. 105 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 4: And I was actually having this conversation last night with 106 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 4: some people who are both actors and creators, and they 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 4: were talking about the difference between they started in the 108 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 4: acting side of the world and they were used to 109 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 4: like there as a DP, as an editor and all 110 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 4: this infrastructure, and then they became a creator and there's none. 111 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 4: I'm setting up my ring line, They're sitting everything, And 112 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 4: they were talking about how it's probably easier to start 113 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 4: as a creator because you don't know that infrastructure exists, 114 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: so you sort of build this DNA and you own 115 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 4: all the means of production. But the contrary to that 116 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 4: is creators who grow up in that ECOSYSM have a 117 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 4: tendency to confuse the mean of production as the creative itself. Right, 118 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 4: So if you think you have to edit and write 119 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 4: and do everything to scale to multiple platforms, it's very complicated. 120 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 4: Just like if you and I started a restaurant decided 121 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 4: we were also going to build an organic farm and 122 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 4: make silverware and build we would have a trouble scaling. Right. 123 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 4: That's where Jellysmack comes because creators are in that moment 124 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 4: right now where they're realizing like, oh, I got to 125 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 4: hire editors, or I need capital to build a studio, 126 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 4: or I want to build a merchandise line, or I 127 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 4: want to build a touring business. They need partners who 128 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 4: understand that scale, what that infrastructure needs to look like. 129 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 4: As what Jilly Smack does. We use all of our 130 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 4: AI and technology to develop services that identify these creators 131 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 4: at an early stage and then support them so they 132 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 4: can grow into real, viable businesses across multiple areas. 133 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: And where are you seeing outside of like you know, 134 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: signing a book deal, signing a TV show development pact 135 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: or something. Where where are you seeing those big, those 136 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: big twenty million level or you know, commensurate dollars. 137 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: Where are you seeing those deals? 138 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 4: So the detail is so it's interesting. So this is 139 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 4: the thing I think gets a little bit confusing when 140 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 4: we look at the creator economy from a traditional media lens, right, 141 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 4: because we look at it from an entertainment perspective, and 142 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 4: there is a sizeable amount of that. They're making videos, 143 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 4: so that makes sense, But the other things you have 144 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: to realize the creator economy is actually transversally impacting a 145 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 4: lot of different communities. And so when you talk about 146 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 4: a creator, they might be on YouTube and they get 147 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 4: ad revenue from YouTube, or they might get brand revenues, right, 148 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 4: so they dual stream like they have a direct relationship 149 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 4: with brands. But then they might come from not like 150 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 4: an entertainment vertical, like for example, we have people who 151 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 4: are in the legal space and they make a ton 152 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 4: of money from referrals into their law firm. Or you 153 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 4: might have creators who for example, one creator who Blacaltes, 154 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 4: who has such a big business that she's got a 155 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 4: giant target retail partnership. Now, if you're looking for anything 156 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,239 Speaker 4: in the yoga space, but you can go through almost 157 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 4: every vertical you can think about, and there's a creator 158 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 4: with a very dominant position, whether it's real estate, you're 159 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: looking at legal, you're looking at retail. We have creators 160 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 4: like Patrick Starr who have big beauty lines. We have 161 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 4: creators like, for example, Karen Nate. They are creators who 162 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: do travel. Now, travel and traditional doesn't work that well anymore, right, 163 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 4: travel channel doesn't really do travel anymore. No, we don't 164 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 4: have people running around doing travel logs anymore. But in 165 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 4: there for their ecosystem and their audience. Not only do 166 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 4: they really have an audience who follows them for the 167 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 4: information of pro but they're so well now they have 168 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 4: an app and a business that helps people book travel 169 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 4: at a discounted rate. There's like something you wouldn't see 170 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 4: in a traditional meaning is where they use the power 171 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: of their distribution actually build whole business credibility and credibility 172 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 4: in those areas. And so it's really hard to find 173 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 4: actually a vertical that doesn't have creators pretty dominant in 174 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: almost any industry, Which is what the thing when people 175 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 4: I don't think they understand the size of the impact 176 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 4: that's happening is it's not just in the media business, 177 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 4: literally happening to every industry at the same time. 178 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 3: So it sounds I mean, it's clearly it's clearly star 179 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: driven at the very top. You've got to have millions 180 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: of followers and it's got it. You've got to have 181 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: that personality. But it sounds like what you're saying is 182 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: you can make a kind of a call it a 183 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 3: middle class living, you know, a load to mid six 184 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: figures with some savvy and obviously some success and some luck. 185 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: But that does exist, or you can. 186 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 4: If you look at it from a pure media business. Right, 187 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 4: Media is media, Right, it has a power a lotl dynamic. 188 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 4: There is ten percent five percent depending which VERTICALI like 189 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 4: a thing as it correct has an outside control of 190 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 4: what's going on. The difference in the creator space is 191 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 4: that you can, to your point, you can build a 192 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 4: middle class lifestyle. I mean just even in Jellysmack, I 193 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 4: think it's about eighty percent of our clients have made 194 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 4: over two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and we're an 195 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 4: ancillary business to them. We're not their core business. You 196 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 4: think about that like that, I think something like five 197 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: times the size of the media and US income, So 198 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 4: it's not small dollars. And again as an emerging market, 199 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 4: right with ever growing consumption, ever growing creators coming into it. 200 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 4: The thing we know that happens as markets like the 201 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 4: middle class just starts to scale, right. I often tell 202 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 4: people like it's kind of like China. People used to 203 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 4: question twenty years ago, is China ever going to get 204 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: past the power al of the concentration on top? And 205 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 4: clearly we know the answer to that. The answer is yes, 206 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: is there middle class the size of the US middle class. No, 207 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 4: but will it be yes, And the same thing will 208 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 4: happen in the creator space over time, just because it 209 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 4: isn't only playing in the media space, right, because if 210 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 4: you're playing in the larger economies, know, ultimately you're talking 211 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 4: about essentially the creator space will impact everything in the GDP. 212 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 4: So it's hard to argue that that's not going to 213 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 4: have a pretty tremendous mid market impact over time. Yeah, 214 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 4: there's correct. 215 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 3: Let me ask you, and just to boil it down, 216 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: Jelly Smack fundamentally offers people like crucial marketing and distribution support. 217 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: Would that be a fair character? Yeah? O. 218 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 4: The way to think about it is that we are 219 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 4: a detection engine on AURA that finds creators who are 220 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 4: most likely to have their content either distribute to another 221 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 4: form of monetization or another platform. We got our beginning 222 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 4: because we're actually founded by three creators who are huge fans. 223 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: I always have to clarify this from my American ads, 224 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 4: but football European not American. And you know, back in 225 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen when they founded a company and social video 226 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 4: isn't what we knew it today, they had antypothesis it 227 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 4: would become what it would be today low those many 228 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 4: years ago. 229 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: Business moves fast. 230 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 4: When we were both twenty the they thought to like, oh, 231 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: I think this is going to be a big opportunity, 232 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 4: but I also think that technology will be a big 233 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 4: way to grow it. And so they built to about 234 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 4: four billion streams in multiple verticals. So they started in football, 235 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 4: which I always said, and so the next logical one 236 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 4: they went into his beauty because that's what sports guys 237 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 4: do with the video gaming entertainment. So they really figured 238 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 4: out how to build content by identifying the type of 239 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 4: talent most likely to resonate across these platforms. That technology 240 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 4: is what other creators started coming to. Initially for Jelly'smack 241 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 4: go like, Hey, I'm struggling as an entrepreneur. I have 242 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 4: I'm completely dedicated to the algorithm and distribution of one platform. 243 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 4: I spend every waking moment trying to speak to my 244 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 4: audience developed this business. Can you give me time, effort 245 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 4: and efficiency And so the big thing that Jelly Smack 246 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 4: ultimately says when we partner with our creators, like, look, 247 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 4: it's a big back end in terms of the tech 248 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 4: we can bring it. At the end of the day 249 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 4: when we give you is ability to de risk and 250 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 4: move your content to multiple platforms and ultimately expand your 251 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 4: business so that you can be not dependent on just 252 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 4: one source of income. 253 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, which versification is the standard? Is the standard business 254 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: across me? 255 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 3: So let me ask you, is there there's a selectivity 256 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: on your part. So there's also a talent almost a 257 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: talent scouting it's correct part on the part of Jelly Smack. 258 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 4: The way to sort of think about it is that, 259 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 4: you know, I always like to use analogies that our 260 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: own creators have used for me when they explain our 261 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 4: own business, and like, oh, that makes sense, I'm going 262 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 4: to use that. You know. One of them said is like, look, 263 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: you're a little bit like universal music. Right at the 264 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 4: end of the day. You sometimes find them when they're 265 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 4: busking in a subway, right. And we have creators we 266 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 4: found and we had like five fifty thousand subs and 267 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 4: we turn them into multimillion revenue companies in a matter 268 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 4: of like months. And then we have other creators like 269 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 4: mister Beasts or who have such scale or called the 270 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 4: Taylor Swift as is the universal music, that have such 271 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 4: scale that they could kind of do if they wanted 272 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 4: to the complexity of what we do for them, but 273 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 4: they're like, I need a partner who has scale expertise, 274 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 4: and so that's really the best way of talking about 275 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 4: Our detection systems are kind of like an A and 276 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 4: R group that are trying to find the talent, to 277 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: identify where they're most likely to be successful, and then 278 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 4: provide them to services to help them scale. 279 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: What I'm hearing you're saying is that you do a 280 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: lot of matchmaking. If you somebody that's big in the 281 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: beauty space, you find the beauty people and try to 282 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: try to bring that right. 283 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 4: Now, you want to identify what the most likely thing 284 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 4: is because is interesting is that people ask us a 285 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 4: lot like what genre should I be in? And there's 286 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 4: actually kind of not an answer to that because it's like, well, 287 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 4: it depends on. 288 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: What you can ask that question. 289 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 3: You may not be built to be a social media. 290 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 4: The thing is all artists have a spark of something 291 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 4: they want to communicate. So I say, start there, what 292 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 4: are you? What do you want to do? I said, 293 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 4: Because again, the thing that's fascining about the creator space, 294 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: like we have we have creators. Charlottever is a great 295 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 4: example of thin unbelievable talented community and absolutely talented writer, 296 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 4: absolutely incredible on camera, and but it's so successful in 297 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 4: our creator space, she's literally funding her own sitcom, right, 298 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 4: But you think about that from an empowerment of the 299 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 4: creative and an attachment to the autist with that sort 300 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 4: of changes in the dynamic. But at the same time, 301 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: we also have people in our thing and actually one 302 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 4: of the one the stream is right who do Invisible 303 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 4: People People is a five h three C charity and 304 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 4: just by passionately communicating about homelessness, which you would think 305 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 4: is not something I if I went to flon I 306 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 4: want to do a series on homelessness, they can be like, yeah, no, no, 307 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 4: it's going to watch it. But yet this person's found 308 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 4: a way to use the storytelling about the impact of 309 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 4: homelessness around the nation to build a large viewership that 310 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 4: is powering a business that's solving the problems that is covering, 311 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 4: but you wouldn't necessarily think about it as an entertainment vehicle. 312 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: Right right. That's interesting. 313 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 3: Can I drill down a little bit in terms of 314 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 3: Jellysmax business. Do you work on like a commission basis? 315 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: Do you work on a fee basis. 316 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 4: With yes the answer because we play in so many 317 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 4: different lines of business and so many different verticals. So 318 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 4: you think about it, we go from helping you identify 319 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 4: an ID eight to all the way to distribution, marketing, promotion, infrastructure, financing, 320 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 4: so we basically play in the whole value chain. For 321 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 4: some of our creators, most of our products we have 322 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: a shared revels new model where we take the capital 323 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 4: risk on their behalf and then sharing the upside so 324 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 4: that we keep our interests alive. But all the cases 325 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 4: will take like a rev share of some sort of 326 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 4: split that we do. It's typically, I would say the 327 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 4: model it looks more like is probably like consumer products, 328 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 4: where essentially we have a relationship over a period of time, 329 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 4: where we have a licensing relationship up to some of 330 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 4: their intellectual profit or period of time, and then we 331 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 4: help them monetize it. 332 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: How many people do you have with jelly'smack now? How 333 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: many employees? 334 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 4: We have about five hundred people in our major centers 335 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 4: are Paris, where the founders are originally from London, New York, 336 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 4: Las Vegas, and. 337 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: La Don't even think of scrolling away. We'll be right 338 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: back after this break and we're back with more from 339 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: JELLY'SMAC president Sean Atkins. 340 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: There's so much right now you know in the ether 341 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 3: about the about the biggest of social media platforms. 342 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 2: Obviously the you. 343 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 3: Know, the site formerly known as Twitter x has been 344 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 3: making a lot of moves. Where do you feel the Google's, 345 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 3: the Facebook's Youtubes? Where are they right now in this 346 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 3: moment of the creator economy? Do you feel like there's 347 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: an understanding that this is really starting to become its 348 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 3: own big thing unto itself. 349 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 4: I don't think they're really having a sudden epivity. They've 350 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 4: known for a long time, and you thinking about face, 351 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 4: I guess YouTube. They've been paying out billions and billions 352 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 4: of dollars to creators on an annual basis for over 353 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 4: a decade. Right now, you know, Facebook is on a 354 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 4: pace in a uh you just last announcedlash your reels 355 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 4: as a products is a year old and Mark just 356 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 4: said it makes ten billion dollars in revenue. That's like 357 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 4: it's a pretty incredible ramp in one year. So it's 358 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 4: more that they know they have a significant dependency or 359 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 4: symbiotic relationship depending on whose side you're asking you what 360 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 4: day in that dynamic and trying to figure out look 361 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 4: their business. They're trying to figure out how to maximize 362 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 4: their margins by leveraging creator content, and creators are always 363 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 4: trying to figure out how to sort of maximize their 364 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 4: margins against platforms who have a little bit more power 365 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 4: than they do in the dynamic. I think that for creators, 366 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 4: their biggest concern in the grand scheme of thing is 367 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,239 Speaker 4: we sort of pain we saw. I was like, how 368 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 4: do I manage multiple platforms at one time? And then 369 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 4: sort of what is always platform uncertainty right that they 370 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 4: their equivalent of in the television business or feature film business, 371 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: like your film doesn't work? Is a platform changes this algorithm? 372 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 4: One day? You were making success one day and the 373 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 4: next day you don't. Saw this happened with YouTube actually 374 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 4: did it to its own business this year, where it's like, 375 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 4: I'm so worried about TikTok, I want to move a 376 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 4: significant amount of my traffic to short form. Right, So 377 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 4: you saw very significant players who are making millions of 378 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 4: dollars a year be like I just lost thirty percent 379 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 4: to my bottom line. This is a period of time. 380 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 4: This is a sequence of time. So I think more 381 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 4: of the debt it's creators are trying to navigate platforms. Well, 382 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 4: platforms are mostly trying to figure out two problems. One 383 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 4: is how do we manage in a world where we 384 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 4: have a lot of like competition from other platforms because 385 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 4: people always assume they're like once YouTube, Facebook control things, 386 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 4: nothing that's going to be around again. And the TikTok exploded, 387 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 4: right seven years another platform comes are right, it comes, 388 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: it comes along, so right now, I'd say the video 389 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 4: platforms are all trying to figure out what do they 390 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 4: do about short form, right, and they're all doing different 391 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 4: levels of experimentation. I think that obviously TikTok TikTok is 392 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 4: doing with its systemic issues of like, well we're going 393 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 4: to be banned, are we're not going to be banned? 394 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 4: Or what's happening with us? 395 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 3: How do you see the kind of the dials going 396 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 3: between the amount of time people are spending on social 397 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 3: media on TikTok just purely watching on creator platform you know, 398 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 3: creator friendly platforms. 399 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 4: There was a day where ninety percent of ad revenue 400 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 4: into newspapers. Yeah, yeah, because that's where attention was, right 401 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 4: and so it is in our that attention is moving 402 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 4: to social and to the creators, right. I think the 403 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 4: last thing is not like if you look at the 404 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 4: number one television network on televisions today and I'm closing 405 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 4: like the spots is YouTube television, not YouTube television the cable. 406 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 4: It's like YouTube the app is the number one television 407 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 4: network in the world. Right, And you're start to get 408 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 4: TikTok and avods and spots and fashionannels and all that stuff. 409 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 4: So that's only going to continue. The second thing is, 410 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 4: and this is what we have a generational shift in consumption. 411 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 4: And that's one thing. But we're not at a one 412 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 4: gen We're now two generations into the shift. Right, So 413 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 4: people like me who are early adopters of digital consumption, 414 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 4: I have four teenagers, right, they only lived in a 415 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 4: world with totalitarian control. And if you looked at the 416 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 4: interests of my four kids of what they watch, they 417 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 4: have like nothing in common. Right, Like, sure, we'll sit 418 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 4: down where you know, we have a tradition as a 419 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 4: family we love Survivor. We sit down when it's why 420 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 4: do we watch Survivor? But the other ninety percent of 421 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 4: the time I picked up my phone and I showed 422 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 4: you what my kids are watching. Right, you'd be like 423 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 4: when kid's watching video game playthroughs, another one is watching 424 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 4: beauty hacks, another one just watches funny memes on TikTok. 425 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 4: That means that the that it always lags the advertiser 426 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 4: dollars always lag, but they always end up where attention is. 427 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 4: And so that is and is we're only debating what 428 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 4: the timeline is. And it reminds me I suspect you 429 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 4: recall this, remember when cable first started and they would 430 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 4: talk about most of the attention is moving every year 431 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 4: to cable more cable, but you see how much the 432 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 4: monetization was, like yo, but like, oh, the super Bowl 433 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 4: is getting you know, you're like why is And cable 434 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 4: to this day still cable systn't fully monetized at the 435 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 4: level of attention that it had versus broadcast. But it's 436 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 4: like ninety sid of the way there, and so the 437 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 4: same thing. 438 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: Just going down and starting to on that other side. 439 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, cable is the one I might argue might have 440 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 4: one of the heaviest morphs in the space versus a 441 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 4: lot of the other industries. 442 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, and it's such a it's you know, 443 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 3: it's almost been whiplashing in terms of it was you know, 444 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 3: it was the way for the. 445 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 4: The greatest, the greatest cash machine, like by the way 446 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 4: I started my career espace. 447 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 3: But I think I think there's an like around nineteen 448 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 3: eighty to twenty twenty is a bookend of of an 449 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: earnings machine that we will probably not see the likes 450 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: very soon. But but you know, even as we sit 451 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: here and speak it, in twelve twenty four months time, 452 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: somebody could have come up with something that you know, 453 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 3: blazes a trail that we can't even that we can't 454 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 3: even conceive of. 455 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: Now that's how fast look and innovative this space is. 456 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: People talk about the machine or Cable, right we really 457 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 4: break it down into a financial person. They're talking about 458 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 4: the amazing margins that cable kicked off. Are you talking 459 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 4: about forty percent margins? Right where it's a production company 460 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 4: might t fifteen twenty percent. The thing is like, if 461 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 4: you look at creators, I look at creators doing forty fifty, sixty, 462 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 4: seventy percent margins. It's incredible what these businesses are doing 463 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 4: is why I always find it interesting. Look when I 464 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 4: was at MTV and people come in pips like I 465 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 4: found this new creator. Let's let's have them pitch a show, 466 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 4: and they picked unbelievably wonderful creative and then you'd show 467 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 4: them the economics of the deal you want to do 468 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 4: with them. I'm like, let me get this straight. I 469 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 4: do whatever I want creatively every single day. Yes, and 470 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 4: all the money accrues to me. Yes. But if I 471 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 4: come work for you, I got twenty people giving me 472 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 4: notes every single thing I do, Yes, and you're gonna 473 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: pay me like one one hundredth and I own none 474 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 4: of the rights. Yes, why would I do that? And 475 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,479 Speaker 4: so that's the other thing I think people don't understand 476 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 4: about their creators space. It's like, yes, there's creators who 477 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 4: want to do a traditional thing and this is part 478 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 4: of their story one hundred percent, I said. But I 479 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 4: think the other thing that people don't understand as a 480 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 4: lot in fact, you remember the person who won that 481 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 4: Show of the Year. What she talked about is like, 482 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 4: I am making something that would never be green lip. 483 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 4: That is an audience bigger than something that's never been 484 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 4: green lit. Yes, with seven people. 485 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: Michelle Kane of Challenge expected. 486 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 4: Correct, and she's right, that is a minimum at least 487 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 4: a cable caliber quality show. 488 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's right. Dare show which would have not been. 489 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 4: Green lit, and she owns all the rights, had all 490 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 4: creative control as full relationship with So that's what I 491 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 4: think is really empowering to the creative class is that 492 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 4: you have this incredible thing that I don't think it's 493 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 4: an or. I think it's an ad. You can have 494 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 4: an ant. Yeah, you can have your creative passion and 495 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 4: be monetized and have a middle class lifestyle, and you 496 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 4: can do the traditional route at the same time. It 497 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 4: doesn't have to be you have to be one or 498 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 4: the other, or one is dependent on the other. 499 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 3: And in a world where streaming licensing deals are changing 500 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 3: quite a bit, they're not quite as rigid as they 501 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: have been. Somebody coming in with I own the format. 502 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 3: I own every stitch of every minute of content, every frame. 503 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 3: That person coming in, if they do want to do 504 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 3: a more traditional TV deal, is going to have a 505 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 3: lot more clout at the negotiating table than somebody that 506 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: only you know is only a star in their own show. 507 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 4: Well, also, you have to transition that I still remember 508 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 4: when I was first started working and lef when reality 509 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,479 Speaker 4: TV started, right, people are like, Uh, that's never going 510 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 4: to be thinking it's not going to be thing. Right, 511 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 4: But that was the explosion of case production companies. So 512 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 4: which and again it is roll up of those cable 513 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 4: production companies. They're the biggest television production companies today, right, Fremantle, ITV, whatnot. 514 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 4: I said, but all of those companies were built in 515 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 4: a world where a broadcast hour was like four to 516 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 4: six million dollars and then cable companies like I'll pay 517 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 4: three hundred thousand bus and people like that's impossible, you 518 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 4: can't do it. But you saw like a ten times 519 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 4: the same thing's happening in digital. Right, You're just saying 520 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 4: the cost of production is coming down, but they'll to 521 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 4: lack the ability of having creative talent on a global 522 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 4: basis to be able to service that. And so what 523 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 4: I think one of the interesting opportunities for the traditional 524 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 4: channels that are getting squeezed on the cost side is 525 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 4: you're going to have like a nut like the cable 526 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 4: class came in, can produce what became the reality burned 527 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 4: and sort of help with that cost structure. The digital 528 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 4: teams are going to come in and have that same thing. 529 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 4: I was like, okay, well I could call a creator 530 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 4: to your point and like I can get eight what 531 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 4: looks like one of my primetime shows. I'm not paying 532 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 4: five hundred thousand an hour anymore, I'm paying one hundred 533 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 4: thousand and so I think it also the creator ecosystem, 534 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 4: and they're that class has an ability to help the 535 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 4: traditional side to make sure that the kind of volume 536 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 4: of production is not going to go away. 537 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you're seeing there, you know, pulling a 538 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: lot of personalities are coming there. Do you sometimes advise 539 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: people on you know, how that they shouldn't spend too 540 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 3: much on this piece of content? Do you do you 541 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 3: advise people sometimes on the margins, like if you you know, 542 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: if you do this to make it look good, you're 543 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 3: going to have to put in this much. 544 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: Yea product justice, we. 545 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 4: Have tire again, an entire tech team that's analyzing, uh, 546 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 4: what works, what formats, what lengths, what time on period? 547 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 4: And it all goes down to even you know. One 548 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 4: of our most frequent acquisitions, Network Media, is an entire 549 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 4: entity focused around us where they actually focus on finding 550 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 4: what I call entertainers. So not like not necessarily a kid, 551 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 4: I was playing video games and I became a Twitch creator, 552 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 4: but someone's like, oh, I was a a circus entertainer 553 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 4: or was a musicians like I want to get into 554 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 4: digital thing. And what they do is we teach them 555 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: and train them using all of our data, all the 556 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 4: best ways to make sure to make content that entertains 557 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 4: for the platform that you're on. And it's all completely data. 558 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 4: I mean, they literally get a training update every single 559 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: day of literally what's working. 560 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, John, I really appreciate you letting 561 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 3: you know, letting me lob questions at you and telling 562 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 3: us about your business. 563 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: And it's a very fascinating. 564 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 3: Space and we definitely I definitely prize I call my 565 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 3: tour guides to helping me understand this. I know it's 566 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 3: important and I know it's important that Variety be on 567 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:34,239 Speaker 3: top of it. 568 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 2: So thank you for helping me do that. 569 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 4: Appreciate it. 570 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review 571 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts and Amazon Music. We love to hear 572 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign 573 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't 574 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: forget to tune in next week for another episode of 575 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: Strictly Business. 576 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 3: M M 577 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 4: M HM