1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: of views expressed here do not represent those of I 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: not even represent my own and nothing contained in this 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: show should be used his medical advice or encouragement to 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: use any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's episode 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: is one I've been thinking about doing for a while. 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: It's about the drug war in the Philippines, and as 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: many of you may know, when the current President of 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: the Philippines Do d got elected six years ago, he 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: made this his number one issue, launching a drug war, 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: telling the police to go kill drug pushers, drug lords, 16 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: even drug addicts, and do so with incredible popular support. 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: And this thing receives a lot of media attention back 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: five six years ago when it started. But my understanding 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: is that in some respects this drug war still goes on. 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: Now there's an upcoming election the Philippines in early May. Uh. 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: So I'm speaking with my guest today who is Philippino. 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: His name is Gideon Lasco. He's a medical anthropologist. He 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: has a medical degree and a PhD in anthropology. Uh. 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: He's a professor in the Philippines. He's also been affiliated 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: various institutions without Asia, Latin America, the United States. I 26 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: asked getting to join us on the show today so 27 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: he can really give us a deeper insight into what's 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: gone on in the Philippines with his drug war. Why 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: is it so popular and what are the facts of 30 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: all of this. So, Gideon, thank you ever so much 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: for joining me on Psychoactive. Thank you eth that I'm 32 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: really glad to join you at to me to your story. 33 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: Why did you take this issue on? I mean, you're 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: going to medical school, you're getting a PC anthropology. Where 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: did the interest in drugs and drug policy and all 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: of this? Uh? Where did this come from? And what's 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: that journey been like? After relating from medicine into two 38 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: thousand ten, I was part of this research project by 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: my eventual PhD supervisor, Anita hard On. It was a 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical anthropologist that the project was all about, this documenting 41 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: what young people take in their everyday lives the different 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: chemicals called them chemicals from cosmetics, tobacco, alcohol, anything that 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: they apply to their bodies or consumed vitamins, etcetera. So 44 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: when I started in the reviewing people young young men 45 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: about what they used, they ended up sharing me their 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: stories about shaboo, about metam feta mean and that led 47 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: me to pursuing that as our research as my master's thesis. 48 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: So I got to know that their their community. I 49 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: got to know their life if I got to have 50 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: out with them, and that taught me started in this direction. 51 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: I moved on since to other topics, but when a 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: few years later the third embarked on this deadly drug war, 53 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: my thoughts came back to all the young men I 54 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: met and wondering if they were targeted at all by 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: by Days, and I knew that the people like them 56 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: were being killed, and I felt that I had a 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: moral responsibility to go back to this topic to be 58 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: an advocate of drug reform, because it's completely opposite of 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: what I saw the thirtiest rhetoric painting these young men 60 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: as addicts, as rapists, skillers. It's far from the reality 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: that I saw and I felt that I had an 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: obligation to challenge that, and that led me to drug 63 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: policy analysis, political analysis about the politics of the drug war, 64 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. And I realized that there are other academics 65 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: who are equal concerned, that equally interested to do research, 66 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: and that led me to continuing that at Bossy and 67 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: Built the day. So let me just start off, I mean, 68 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: just let's provide a little historical context. Enrico to Torte 69 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: is a populist mayor, you know, in a kind of 70 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: crime writin city Devour in the southern part of the country, 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: and he rides this way to victory in the presidential 72 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: election six years ago. He seems incredibly crude, rough, but 73 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, gets elected and launches this huge drug war 74 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: practically on day one of his administration six years ago. 75 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: Was this just something that was slowly building up and 76 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: then just took it to the next level, or was 77 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: this some kind of significant transformation from what had happened before. 78 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: That's a very important question to ask, and I would 79 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: say that it's more of the farmer. I would say 80 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: that the third, despite how dramatic and violent his campaign 81 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: has been, it's actually a culmination of decades of Philippine 82 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: drug policy that has always been punitive towards people who 83 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: use drugs, and has always employed a kind of populist 84 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: rhetoric that the third has employed, and that goes all 85 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: the way back to the to the nineteen seventies, when 86 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: the dictator Ferdinand Marcos, to justify his declaration of martial law, 87 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: used drugs as a specter to scare people and say 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: that we need discipline, we need a strong government, and 89 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: he played up the threat of drugs or what they 90 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: call the drug mennis at that time in the early 91 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. And would you say it's fairly consistent with 92 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: what one sees in much of the rest of Asia. 93 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, I always thought, you know 94 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: that Singapore was sort of notorious for, you know, executing 95 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: people who got caught with more than an ounce of 96 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: rojan or a few grams of heroin, punishing people with 97 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: corporal punishment, and many of the other you know, Asian 98 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: countries have typically been highly punitive in their drug policies, 99 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: but in some respects it seems like to Turkey and 100 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: Philippines have almost displaced Singapore as a kind of new 101 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: Asian punitive model, So how do you put this do 102 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: today approach in in a Filipino approach, in the broader 103 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: asan context, I think that whenever something like the thirty 104 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: happened in the world, there's a tendency to see it 105 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: as an exceptional kind of evil, if you will. But 106 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: if you look at the history of Southeast Asia, just 107 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: in the early two thousands, we have the Thigh president 108 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: who absolutely employed very similar tactics in its own bloody, 109 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,239 Speaker 1: murderous drug wire in two thousand two, and that also 110 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: had some popular support, with even the King of Thailand 111 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: expressing some words of support for that campaign. So definitely 112 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: the third has in terms of the scale of the violence, 113 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the rhetoric that's really really foul unacceptable. 114 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: So in some ways he's definitely an escalation, but we 115 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: see that his style is actually quite familiar, and the 116 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: fact that some other countries like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh 117 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: followed the third style speaks of how across the region 118 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: there's so much resonance, there's so much political resonance of 119 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: that kind of approach to drugs. But I think that 120 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: part of the third Ist framing of his drug war 121 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: is that it is a local response to to the 122 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: drug problem that he calls us such, the drug menace 123 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: that he calls us such. And the important thing to 124 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: note here is that he frames this as opposed to 125 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: Western approaches. He deliberately taps into this anti colonial notions, 126 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: anti colonial sentiments in the country to frame his drug 127 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: war as something that is responsive to the Philippine needs, 128 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: something that is local. And the more agencies like the 129 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: UN human rights groups, the more different embassies, different foreign governments, 130 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: the more they contradict and opposed the drug war. He 131 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: actually uses this to say that, oh, look at this 132 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: Western government. They're hypocritical. We have our own response. They 133 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: have to respect our sovereignty. So he deliberately placed it 134 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: up as a indigenous response to a indigenous problem. Mm hmm. 135 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: I see. Now, when he had been the kind of 136 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: popular mayor of Devol, I mean, he was already known 137 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: as a tough on crime kind of guy. He bragged 138 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: about killing people, you know, he would authorize the police 139 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: to do their own extradicial killings and all this sort 140 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: of stuff. But it seemed like drugs was not as 141 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: much his focus when he was a mayor. And then 142 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: when he gets elevated to the presidency, it seems to 143 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: become the singular focus of actually the entire presidency um 144 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: at least in the early years. Now, am I correct 145 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: in that perception that that his framing of the issue changed, 146 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: or that he sort of relabeled crime problem is drug problem? 147 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: And if so, why the think The note with the 148 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: third is that he has actlutely been known to be 149 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: tough on drugs and crime, and in in the Philippines, 150 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: actually there's so much conflation between the two. People who 151 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: are accused of he knews crimes like rape are automatically 152 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: labeled as addicts, So people are automatically assumed to be 153 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: addicts when they commit crime, when they commit all kinds 154 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: of scandalous crimes. So the third day is stopping into both, 155 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: and they're really conflated in the popular imagination. So it 156 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: was very easy for him to be more explicitly against 157 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: drugs because for in people's minds, there's very little distinction 158 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: between the two I see. Another interesting thing to note 159 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: is that when a former Philippine president, Gloria Arroyo in 160 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's, she also embarked on an anti 161 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: drug campaign and her advisor was the Thurthday. So two 162 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: decades ago, we have this mayor who is known as 163 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: tough on crime and drugs, and that made him actually 164 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: popular for people. It was seen as an approach that's effective, 165 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: and I was reading as part of my research. I've 166 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: been reading some of the the comments, like the lets 167 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: to the editor at that time, and they were really 168 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: supporting this approach. When another former President of the Philippines, 169 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: Joseph Estrada, one of his cabinet members decided that they 170 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: will shame suspected drug pushers by spray painting their houses 171 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: just to shame them too. The surrender, some of the 172 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: events that I was reading in the newspaper were saying, 173 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 1: why you just stop there, You should kill them. As 174 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: early as the early two thousand's late people were already 175 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: demanding a kind of approach that the third time would 176 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: be happy to absolutely implement. Two decades later, the drug 177 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: was more than just the extra judicial killings. And my 178 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: understanding is that is the number roughly thirty thousand extra 179 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: judicial killings have been committed over the last six years. 180 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: Is that a rough estimate. That's another issue that is 181 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: embedded in the fact that me the outlets in the 182 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: Philippines have been avoiding this topic, and they've stopped counting, 183 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: partly because people have lost interest, unfortunately, and also partly 184 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: because they didn't want to antagonize the the government. I 185 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: believe there's only one academic group, the Third World Study 186 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: Center in Dilemma, who has continued trying to count the numbers. 187 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: So the estimates the wildly vary, but I think it's 188 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: definitely in the tens of thousands, and the Philippine National 189 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: Police itself says that there's at least several thousands in 190 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: their what they call legitimate police operations. But these actually killings. 191 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: I mean, if you read about policing, for example, in 192 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: Brazil or in other parts of Latin America Central America, 193 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: you often times read that extra killings are just kind 194 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: of part of what the cops do, you know. I mean, 195 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: you know a bunch of you know, teenagers who are 196 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: commuting all sorts of petty crime, and sometimes the cops 197 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: will just shoot a bunch of them. You know. One 198 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: gets the sense that there's a kind of ta sit 199 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: public support for this until a kind of line is 200 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: crossed where somebody who's obviously anything gets killed or a 201 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: kid gets killed or you know, by standards, but the 202 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: general support. Now, did you have the same thing in 203 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: the Philippines with extraditional killing sort of being part of 204 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: what cops did for many decades, going back to the 205 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: Marcos years or even before. Yes, definitely, and that's not emphasized. 206 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: That's some of the things that we are trying to 207 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: emphasize as scholars, as local scholars, is that there's a 208 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: history of both the violence and this attempt to control 209 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: drugs in a very punitive way. So this definitely has 210 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: the long standing history the very methods that are being 211 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: used today. Writing in tandem, that's what they call, went 212 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: to people writing in a motorcycle, just go to a 213 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: community and should these people. That has absolutely been documented 214 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: even before the third and the only difference being that 215 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: the scale every day at some point dozens were being killed, 216 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: hundreds were being reported by the week. And yes, to 217 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: go back to your earlier point, it had about where 218 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: they're turning points where there's something that's clearly lines being crossed. 219 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: There's definitely some incidents during the drug war, most famously 220 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: the killing of y and de Losantos and Desantos is 221 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: the seventeen year old boy who was killed as part 222 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: of this campaign. But there was a video footage of 223 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: him being dragged by the police, contradicting their frequent refrain 224 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: that no, they actually thought they were doing it in 225 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: self defense. None laban, that's what the Filipino term for it, 226 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: meaning they fought. But this boy was clearly being dragged 227 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: by police and witnesses even a report that his last 228 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: words were I have an example tomorrow. So this is 229 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: clearly as student who has nothing to do with any 230 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: kind of offense and he was killed despite begging for 231 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: mercy by these cops. And that high profile case led 232 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: to a boss in terms of the number of killings, 233 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: but eventually it still went back. So there's a moment 234 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: where the sort of the conscience of the public gets shocked, 235 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: the media jumps on it, the cops pulled back. And 236 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: what this happened about a year year and a half 237 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: into do to Day's term. Yes, in August seventeen. Yeah, 238 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: it's little over a year after the took office. You know, 239 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: there's this feeling where you just wonder, is there just 240 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: a kind of blood thirsty nous in Filipinos society that 241 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: supports this kind of thing. Or are there. Filipino is 242 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: really no different than many other societies in other parts 243 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: of the world, where there's a lot of poverty and 244 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: there's crime, and there's fear of crime and killing a 245 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: bunch of poor people who are involved in joy or 246 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: crime is just kind of like, you know, that's what 247 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: you got to do to keep order. I mean, what 248 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: is it Because my minor sty is to Turty right 249 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: has remained popular but with strong majority support through all 250 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: six years. If he's not allowed to run for office again, 251 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: but if he was, he would probably win reelection, you know, 252 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: and it's not just a matter of his suppressing his 253 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: political opposition. There seems to be some real support for him. 254 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: What is it that How do you explain this high 255 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: levels of support for for him? That's a very important 256 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: question that we really struggled with. But I would say 257 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: I would argue that part of the answer lies in 258 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: this decades of people having this moral panic around the 259 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: image of this inspector, of this addict who for decades 260 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: has been blamed by by media, has been blamed by politicians, 261 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: has been blamed even by the church. Asked one of 262 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: the evils of society. So this guy in of background 263 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: that people really have a very low view of these 264 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: so called addicts and the so in popular imagination, there's 265 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: very little difference between someone who uses drugs and this addicted. 266 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: This image of this addicquo is murderous. So all of 267 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: these has succeeded in making people think that this is 268 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: a lesser evil for the Philippines. The succeeded in making 269 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: people feel it. Oh, but what about the human rights 270 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: of the public. What about the human rights of the victims, 271 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: the rape victims, the victims of kidnapping, of murder that 272 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: these addicts have been doing for decades. So that kind 273 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: of thinking, how however, simplistic and flawed, has allowed the 274 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: third to justify his drug war. In fact, surveys say 275 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: that people disagree with the release, but obviously they tolerated 276 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: to appoint Then the third day, as you rightfully said, 277 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: it remains popular and put very well win the elections. 278 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: The stigmatization, the demonization of drug addicts, of junkies, of 279 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 1: that whole thing. That's not just in the Philippines, right, 280 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: It's not just in Asia. I mean we had in 281 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: the United States. It's part of what drove mass incarceration, 282 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: and these hobby punitty approaches you see in many parts 283 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: of the world. But what's somewhat distinctive about the Philippines 284 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: and the Philippines drug war is a the extent of 285 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: the extradicial killings, right, which which is at a level 286 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: you don't see in almost any of the countries except 287 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: briefly in Thailand about twenty years ago. And the fact 288 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: that the president himself is right out there on TV. 289 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: You know that that that infamous quote of his hitler killed. 290 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: He claimed three million Jews. I can kill three million 291 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: drug addicts, and yet nobody castigates them for it. It's like, okay, 292 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, going out on the media and saying, hey, police, 293 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: I don't want you to kill people in cold blood, 294 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: but if they show the slightest resistance, well you have 295 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: I permission to kill them, and I'll have your back. 296 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, this very blatant public support from the very 297 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: top for extradicial killing. I mean, that's something that is 298 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 1: quite distinctive, and yet he's still immensely popular, it seems, 299 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: among the Filipino public, you know, I mean, I mean, 300 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: we can look around the world. We'll get into this 301 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: shortly about other populists using outrageous language and all this 302 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But the notion of a president directly 303 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: condoning extradicial killings into the tens of thousands and yet 304 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: retaining public support, what is that? Is there something distinctively 305 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: Filipino about that, some high level of tolerance for this 306 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: over the top rhetoric or or what. Well, that's really 307 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: a mystery. That's a big mystery. But I think that 308 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 1: again that if you look at the third athartic how 309 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: no matter how exceptional, but if you look at the history, 310 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: and I can give you several other examples of even 311 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: the bishops, the athletic bishops in the Philippines calling drug 312 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: users they are the word saboteurs and worthy of the 313 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: highest punishment. They are physical irecks that are hopelessly doomed 314 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: to ignominy. And that's a pastoral letter in the nineteen seventies. 315 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: So definitely the third test, the fact that he can 316 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: get away with it is a puzzle. But the part 317 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: of the puzzle is that we have to really extend 318 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: our gaze into the history because so many other people 319 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: have echoities language. And now with the elections coming up, 320 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: some candidates are also saying that we should continue the 321 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: extra ductional killing. If you look at the victims of 322 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: these campaigns, they're mostly, almost exclusively, these are very poor 323 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: young men in urban communities, low income urban communities. So 324 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: for many Filipinos they may never meet anyone who has 325 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: been a victim of these somempaigns. The very inequity of 326 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: society is working in the favor of populist like the 327 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: third Day, because people don't see it, people don't feel 328 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: that people are getting killed because their communities are not affected. 329 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: You know, I was trying to compare this to like 330 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: what we've seen in the United States, especially going back 331 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: to the drug war in the eighties and early nineties. 332 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: And on the one hand, you know, with all the 333 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: violence associated with the drug war, which at that time 334 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: there was there were police killings, but huge numbers of killings, 335 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: buying among people involved in the illicit drug markets, and 336 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: sometimes killing innocence and by standards. But what you saw 337 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: was that initially you had support, for example, among older 338 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: people in the black communities for the tough crackdown the 339 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: war on drugs approach. And this continued for a while, 340 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: and then at some point, you know, people began to 341 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: wake up and began to realize that the cops are 342 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: doing nothing really to make neighbors any safer, But they 343 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: were sending hundreds of thousands of young black kids up 344 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: to you know, upstate prisons, and so you began to 345 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: see it turning around on this. Now, you know, one 346 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: could see sort of middle class Filipinos going, oh, well, 347 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: this is part of the inner city problem. Doesn't touch us. 348 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: These are you know, drug addicts whatever. But within the 349 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: communities where this is actually playing out, I mean, is 350 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: your sense that in many of these communities there's still 351 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: a sort of majority support for this or for certain 352 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: aspects of this, or are the poor communities where people 353 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: actually know people who are getting killed? Is there substantially 354 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: more resistance to it? Even there, there's a lot of division, 355 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: And some sociologists have interviewed people in communities where it 356 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: is happening, and even there, maybe we can hear people 357 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: saying that they support this because there's even more fear 358 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: in these communities among the image of the the addict 359 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: and in their mind people who commit crimes and people 360 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: who use drugs. It's conflated as one. So there is 361 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: still support those communities. The works. The third thing, even 362 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: though there are also people's ordentizations, especially those who are 363 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: families of victims of the drug war, So there's also 364 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: resistance in those communities, but it's not the overwhelming resistance 365 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: that you might expect. We'll be talking more after we 366 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: hear this ADM. You know, I spent the last couple 367 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: of days reading this book that you recently edited, called 368 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: Drugs and Philippines Society, and it's fascinating and among the 369 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: more fascinating chapters is won by you. And then I 370 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: think there are a couple of else like this, you know, 371 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: which point out that for many people, especially poor people, 372 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: especially poor men, because I think it's much more men 373 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: using the amphetamine which is I guess known as shabu 374 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: and Philippines that many of them use it. You know, 375 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: it's very functional that that the users make a distinction 376 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: between you know, those people have control of their drug 377 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 1: using those who lose control. You know that it's helpful 378 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: for you know, doing all sorts of physical labors. It's 379 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. Yet at the same time, 380 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: it seems like there's very little perception of the kind 381 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: of functional and non addictive nature of much methymphetamine use 382 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: within the Philippines, maybe even within poor communities. Yes, what 383 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: when we see about schabo in particular, about the tempete 384 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: in particular, is that it is exceptionally ascribed a particular effect. 385 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: And even the Third Day has spoken about how shambo 386 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: is really a different category of drugs. It really destroys 387 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: the brain. It's unlike marijuana, it's unlike other drugs because 388 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: if you're adictant to chabo or beyond rehabilitation. But that's 389 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: the narrative coming from the Third d and I even 390 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: wrote a paper dedicated to that, to that idea that 391 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: chabu is exceptional among the different drugs, and that kind 392 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: of exceptionalism is really quite common among the people that 393 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: I have spoken with. So I think that's part of 394 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: the part of the answer. And of course, if you 395 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: think of chabou as this really evil drug, then committed 396 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: in that narrative. Excluded in that narrative is the fact 397 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: that people actually use it in their everyday lives as 398 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: a functional drug. Aside from those that I have written 399 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: in my scholarship, I have talked to taxi drivers, I 400 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: have talk to truck drivers who say that they needed 401 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: to stay awake. They call it there like a vitamin 402 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: for them or like an energy drink for them. And 403 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: it's quite common, not just in the Philippines but across 404 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: the region. People use it for functional reasons and just 405 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: well show more about this. I mean, do you see 406 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: this among Is it mostly young men or the people 407 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: successfully use shabu for years or even decades without developing 408 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: a significant problem. Yeah, people use it, uh, young men, 409 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: but also older men who are involved in very difficult jobs, 410 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: jobs that require them to stay awake all night. We 411 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: have even interviewed, for example, butchers who need to stay 412 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: up at early hours too am so that they can 413 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: prepare for the market. We have heard of fisher men 414 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: who say that they take shaboo so they can dive 415 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: deeper so that they can catch whatever they're cat like 416 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: fish or or whatever seafood that they're looking for. So 417 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: it's used in a variety of contexts, mostly economic, and 418 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: people who do this say that they're not really addicted 419 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: to If they change jobs, if they can find a 420 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: better job, then they will stop using it because they're 421 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: only using it in the context of this economic activities. 422 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: I mean, if people are a functional user and they're 423 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: using it for work, are they using it multiple times 424 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: a day. Are they getting up in the morning using 425 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: it and then in a lunch break and then waiter 426 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: or what are the various patterns of use you see 427 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: around this The ones that they observed did they just 428 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: use it once in a day, like before they go 429 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: to work. So, for example, in my original ethnography back 430 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, I observe them use it before they 431 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: go to the port where they work all kinds of jobs, 432 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: and then that will give them enough enough high until 433 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: until the next day. So the challenge for them is 434 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: how to fall asleep. And sometimes they drink beer they 435 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: say that marijuana and help them fall asleep afterwards. So 436 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: the effect for them apparently lasts for overnight. It was 437 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: just shift for a second to marijuana because I remember 438 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: reading this is even before deterte that on the one hand, 439 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: I'd read about Philippines producing some of the better marijuana 440 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: when found around the world in some parts of the country. 441 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,239 Speaker 1: And the other hand, I think the Philippines was one 442 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: of the few countries that had this massive effort to 443 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: have drug testing in the schools. I means, something we 444 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: saw in the US, but the Philippines really to seem 445 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: to be almost fanatically oriented towards this. So what is 446 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: the perspective on on on cannabis and marijuana in the 447 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: Philippines And it has it evolved kind of in a 448 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: more open minded way or a more closed minded way 449 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: over the last few decades. That's a very good question, 450 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: because we're seeing this drug testing. In fact, that's really 451 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: another problem for many of these young men that I interviewed. 452 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: They want to quit. They want to quit the informal 453 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: economy that they find themselves in that they want to 454 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: seek jobs that are more part of the formal economy, 455 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: for example, be working in fast food chains, working in 456 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: the supermarkets as bag baggers. So they are seeking some 457 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: of these jobs, and they're afraid of this drug testing 458 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: because they feel that if they fail it, they will 459 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: be targeted and they would be subjected either healings or 460 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: incarceration depends on. So this drug testing, as you point out, 461 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: is so common and it's so pervasive. Even the presidential 462 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 1: candidates for the elections that are coming up, some of 463 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: them even publicly underwent tests to show that they're not addicts. 464 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: So again the inflation between us of any kind of 465 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: drug and addict. So people talk about the drug war 466 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: and talk about the healings, and rightfully so, it's the 467 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: most brutal manifestation. But we also have this drug testing 468 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: regime that has affected universities, affect that high schools administrators 469 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: don't know what to do. There's no mechanism of what 470 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: happens when someone that's positive, what do you do? And 471 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: then there's also this incarce massive incarceration of people. I 472 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: don't know, ethan if you saw this really harrowing photos 473 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: of people crowded in the jails in the Philippines, it's 474 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: really in humane. People die, dozen'ts die every month in 475 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: Philippine prisons, in jails because of the inhumane conditions, and 476 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: the drug war has only caused even more crowding in 477 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: the jails in the Philippines. So that's another component of 478 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: the drug wire. The attention typically is on the extradicial killings, 479 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: but there is this whole other element to it, right, 480 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: I mean people being arrested. I mean I think there's 481 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: millions of people have been added to government lists. Right 482 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: the cops are going door the door asking drug uses 483 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: to turn themselves in or else and had been forced 484 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: to give permission for a police to monitor them. I mean, 485 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it does sound like a fairly pernicious, almost 486 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: fascist like approach to using the drug ward to basically, 487 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, survey millions of people in your country exactly. 488 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: And people who object most prominently against these policies are 489 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: also subject to punishments themselves. So until now, my dear friend, 490 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: Senator Delima It is now in jail for more than 491 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: five years and her only offense to the president is 492 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: to call for an investigation of this drug wire and 493 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: he's round surrounding for senator in May. But unfortunately, because 494 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: of this vilification against her, because of the accreciations that 495 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: she herself is somehow absurdly huddling drug lords, those oblisation 496 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: and have taken at all on her political capital, and 497 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: she's not even a contender despite her running for senator 498 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: based on the surveys. She's bowling very low and she 499 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: might lose in the electrons, unfortunately. But that goes to 500 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: show you how years of this kind of almost fascist regime, 501 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: as you said, people can get desensitized to it. The 502 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: value of news about people getting killed no longer has 503 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: the same vaillance as before. That's why it continues, and 504 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: it drugs on because people have been desensitized to them. 505 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: On the other hand, we're seeing more openness with talking 506 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: about marijuana as a medical as a medical treatment, and 507 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: there are movements in the Philippines that are vocally adverting 508 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: for for marijuana. And then I really do CHURCHI himself 509 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: had at one point said he was a fair medicalmara 510 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: juana if they were buils in the Congress to legalized 511 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: medical marijuana. But what's the latest with all of that 512 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: is detergy did he back away from that? And is 513 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: there still movement? And you know where is this issue 514 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: in the Philippines right now? Yeah, you're you're right. The 515 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: third really really at one point said that he's open 516 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: to medical marijuana. But you know that the interesting thing 517 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: with this cannabis legalization, which is why it's really worthy 518 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: of study as well, is that the University of the 519 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: Philippines College of Medicine, they themselves released a very strong 520 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: statement opposing medical knnabis, calling it a serious threat to health, 521 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: in response to when the Third said that he was 522 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: open to it. So that goes to show how people 523 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: prejudices against drugs. It's really so pervasive in the Philippines 524 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: that even the academics are against any kind of discuss 525 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: arton regarding uh medical kadaba event. So that's how different, 526 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, Giddy. And it's not so different elsewhere. 527 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: I mean the United States, the American Medical Association, many 528 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: of the medical associations remained firmly against it. They didn't 529 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: like the fact that it was a sort of plant medicine. 530 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: They didn't like the cultural associations. So they were among 531 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: the last to come on. And even when you looked 532 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: at set of health ministries, I think in Jamaica or Mexico, Colombia, 533 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: oftentimes they were they were the most problematic on the 534 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: medical marijuana stuff. You had more of the support coming 535 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: from foreign ministries or or people in other walks of life. 536 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: So I don't think the Philippines is that distinctive. But 537 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: when you look at Thailand, for example, moving forward on 538 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: medical marijuana, and I think even some other countries opening 539 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: up a discussion on this. In Philippines, is this actually 540 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: making some real progress at this point or is it 541 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: kind of be um? Did it sort of get stalled 542 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: in the Congress and is going nowhere now? I think 543 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: it got stalled, and I think it's partly because of 544 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: this opposition coming from having from medical groups. Now, it's 545 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: interesting about the Philippines thing. You know, in the US 546 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: and some other countries, we typically say that the war 547 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: on drugs is deeply in interwoven, if not all about 548 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: race and racism. But in the Philippines, I mean there's 549 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: all different sorts of ethnicities in the Philippines, right, But 550 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: is there any ethnic or racial element to this or 551 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: is it basically a issue of class of poverty and 552 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: its ana of class. It is a war on the poor, 553 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: and that's why it continues because in a way, it's 554 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: really a continuation of what's been going on for so long. 555 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: And people don't feel empathy because there there's a distant 556 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: from the experiences of these people who are in low 557 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: income communities. M So it does nothing involving having darker 558 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: scan or being from a particular ethnic minority. It's basically 559 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: flat out poverty and people associated with this stuff. It's 560 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: an interesting sort of counter example to what we see 561 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: in many other countries in the US, but even Latin 562 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: American Europe where the racials I mensioned. You know, it 563 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: is so powerful in all of this. Yes, yeah, And 564 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: just to go back to your comment about whether the 565 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: drug war is racialized in the Philippines, has ever been racialized. 566 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: So if you go back in the nineteen seventies, for 567 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: didn't Markos the dictate or at the time, he painted 568 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: the drugs as a foreign threat and singling out drug 569 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: lords from China, So Chinese drug lords as the ones 570 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: bringing drugs to the country, and he dramatically televised the 571 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: execution of a drug lord by firing squad in the 572 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: first few months of his martial law I think January 573 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. So that vein of this idea of 574 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: drugs cutting from China has continued until today, especially with 575 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: tensions between the Philippines and China because of the South 576 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: China see West Philippines Heat territory parties. So there's that. 577 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: So if I recall a few years into the drug war, 578 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: you started to hear claims by Deterked I think and 579 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: people around him and his supporters and the cops that 580 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: it was working, you know, not just in terms of 581 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: body counts and people getting killed or people admitting to 582 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: being drug users and going off to facilities, but that 583 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: robberies were down, rapes were down, other types of crime 584 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: were down and people felt safer walking the streets in 585 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: the poor neighborhoods um to what extent was this true? 586 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: People claim that the police, of course will claim that 587 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: that these are safer, but the ethnographic evidence points to 588 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: the fact that the opposite is true. That there's actlutely 589 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: a claimate of fear in many of these communities. They're 590 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: afraid at night, especially because they might be targeted by 591 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: the police or by these identified men who do their killings. 592 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: So it's really the opposite of what they say. But 593 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: perhaps some people who who don't themselves belong to those 594 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: particular areas would say that it's safe, But the people 595 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: themselves the ethnographic evidence, and some of it has been 596 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,439 Speaker 1: included in the book that I edited. Some of our 597 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: writers have written about how a climate of fear and 598 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: suspicion has pervaded these communities precisely because of the healings 599 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: that are happening. And now now that the Third is 600 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: weakening in terms of his political capital, now that the 601 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: Third is a lame duck as an outgoing president, even 602 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: the senators who used to support him are now saying 603 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: that this druguar was a failure. Well, I mean, that's true. 604 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I'm reading that the leading candidates, 605 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the leading candidate is the son 606 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: of the former president and dictator, Fernando Marcos, whose nicknamed 607 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: bang Bang Marcos. And the leading vice presidential candidate, who 608 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: I gather doesn't run on the same ticket with the 609 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: president but basically has allied with the president, is Sarah 610 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: do turtey right, do Turte's daughter and and former mayor 611 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: as well of de val in the South, the city 612 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: where do Turte was mayor. I mean, it sounds like 613 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: they're basically saying they're going to continue the drug war, 614 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: maybe just with less of the rhetoric. And then that 615 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: Filipino boxer, I forget what his name is, Many the 616 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: Power or something like that. I mean, he's basically saying, well, 617 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: I'm not going to kill the drug addicts, but I'm 618 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: going to kill the pushers. And and then I saw 619 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: a public opinion poll recently that a majority of Filipinos 620 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: still support the drug war and that maybe even a 621 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: majority regard the drug war as do Turkey's greatest legacy. 622 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: So I mean, what's going on there. It sounds like, 623 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, this is seen generally speaking as a great 624 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: success of of this soon to be ex president. Yeah, 625 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: it's true that they're still significant support for the test 626 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: drug war, and including the leading candidates, but now there's 627 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: more dissenting voices, even though they still remain in the minority. 628 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: For example, another another residential candidate, pan Philo laps and 629 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: a former police chief, said that it is really a 630 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: failure the drug war. So there's more voices now who 631 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: are saying that, but they remain in the minority. And 632 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: people like Bombo Marcos, who is the leading candidate and 633 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: the son of this dictator that I mentioned earlier, who 634 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 1: was the first I would think the first Philippine president 635 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: to use drugs as a populist trop So he himself 636 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: is saying that he will continue. But the third as started, 637 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: and they're even saying that they will shield the third 638 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: from investigations because now a case has been filed against 639 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: him in the International Creaming or it. So one of 640 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: the campaign questions to all this candidate is what will 641 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: you do? Will you allow him to be arrested by 642 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,959 Speaker 1: the i c C. And of course this bumble market 643 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: is saying that no, we will protect him. M hmm. 644 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: So who has been the opposition. I mean, obviously academics 645 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: like yourself, and obviously you know the senator who's been 646 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: sitting in prison for five years, and I guess it 647 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: was Maria Ressa, the journalists who have recently won the 648 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize. Um. But say more about the opposition 649 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: is their opposition within anybody in law enforcement? Is there 650 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: are you know, where is the church, the Catholic Church, 651 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: the Evangelical Church and all this um. Where are other 652 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, law association's folks like that? I mean, how 653 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: where is that opposition and how does it manifest? So 654 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,479 Speaker 1: one of the impacts of the drag wire is that 655 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: these organizations, including the church, including human rights groups, including lawyers, 656 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: groups who were previously apathetic towards drugs or have held 657 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: a negative view that's similar to to the other politicians before, 658 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: but now that they have seen what's at staked with drugs, 659 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: they have taken a more vocal position that they're against 660 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: this kind of approach to drugs. The Catholic Church. I 661 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: wrote a paper with the Sociology of Religion about how 662 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, after spending decades really saying that drugs 663 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: are a great evil that must be destroyed. They have 664 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: basically changed their rhetoric to that of mercy and and redemption. 665 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: So they have changed their rhetoric around drugs and are 666 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: now vocally opposed to the drug war. The same with 667 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: many groups, many academic and human rights organizations, civil society groups, 668 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: So they're the ones who are calling for are stopping 669 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: this kind of approach, but they're also not clear about 670 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: what the alternative is. People talk about rehab as a 671 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: magic word that as an alternative to the killings, but 672 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: people don't have a clear idea of what this so 673 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: called rehabilitation means because the rehab status school in the 674 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: Philippines consists of compulsory detention centers and many institutions that 675 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: are tantamount to being in prison. So it's not really 676 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:35,760 Speaker 1: the kind of approach that's needed. I believe in addressing drugs. 677 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 1: And of course there are some political candidates, presidential candidates 678 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,760 Speaker 1: who have rightfully pointed out that we need to respond 679 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: to the economic needs of many people that lead them 680 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: to using drugs like shaboo in the first place. So 681 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,479 Speaker 1: there are some ideas that are coming out, but they're 682 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: not very clear about what they mean when they say rehabilitation. 683 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: Let's take a break here and go to an ad. 684 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: It's always kind of been a challenge with stimulant drugs, 685 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: I mean cocaine or amphetamine, right, because when you're dealing 686 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: with opioids, with heroine, with fentonyl, you know, people can 687 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: talk about getting people onto method on or rupern orphane 688 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: or even setting up pharmaceutical you know, heroin programs. Um 689 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: With stimulants, it's always been a lot trickier what does 690 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: treatment mean in any kind of medical dimension? And you know, 691 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: and I think throughout much of Asia the issue is 692 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: focused around meth amphetamine. I remember there was some a 693 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: while ago. I don't know if it's still the case 694 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: where Vietnam had I think hundreds of thousands of people 695 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: and these basically, you know, refurbished communist re education camps 696 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: that had now become drug abuser re education camps. And 697 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: you saw this phenomena in other countries as well. Does 698 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: the Philippines also have tens or hundreds of thousands of 699 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: people basically sitting in these large facilities? You know, we're 700 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: drug treatment consists of a of a sermon by a 701 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,800 Speaker 1: priest and a lecture by a reformed adrect or something 702 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: like that. Yes, there are substantial numbers of people who 703 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: basically that's what they do in in these rehab centers. 704 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: The third at one point ordered the construction of megaur 705 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: rehab centers that can house thousands of people with that 706 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: kind of of idea, Although some advocates of drug quality 707 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:40,319 Speaker 1: reform in the Heartry are saying that despite all of 708 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: these developments, the past few years have actually also been 709 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: an opportunity to talk about drugs and for the first 710 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: time that people actually listen because people now recognize that 711 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,800 Speaker 1: lives are at stake with this, so ideas like community 712 00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: based rehabilitation, the psychologists, psychology but ssioners have stepped in 713 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: to offer some kind of alternative approaches, but so far 714 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: there's no consensus or finality as to what this might 715 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: look like. And as you said, stimulants have always been 716 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: challenging to begin with, so it will really take some 717 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: time before people can come up with a clearer idea 718 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: of what a response should look like. Where does harm 719 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 1: reduction into all of this, Well, people have been advocating. 720 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: There are some organizations in the Philippines who have been 721 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: speaking of harm reduction as an approach, and even one 722 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: senator even filed a bill that's inspired by harm reduction, 723 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: although they didn't want to say it as harm reduction 724 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: because that very term, it's very, very sensitive in the 725 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: political discourse. There's one very influential Senator, Tita Soto, who 726 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,440 Speaker 1: is now running for vice president, who has declared that 727 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: harm reduction is a it's like a Western idea that 728 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: will poison the country. So they didn't call it exactly 729 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: harm reduction, but the idea is there. There's some no 730 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 1: matter how few. There are some lawmakers and there's some 731 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: advocates that are pushing for this, and at the local 732 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 1: government level there's much more weager room to the pilot 733 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: these approaches. I mean, was there ever much of an 734 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: issue with injection drug use in the Philippines, So if 735 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: either stimulants or opioids. For a time there was injection 736 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: drug use, and until now in Cembu, in the city 737 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: of Sembu, people in jacnal buffin what is what is 738 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: now Buffin? Yes, now buffin. I believe it's like a 739 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: it's like a pain. It's more of a drug for pain, 740 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: like an opioid, analgetic, but it's the drug of choice 741 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 1: among people who inject drugs in Sembu City in the Philippines, 742 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 1: and for a time there was a very big concern 743 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: about HIV cases I seeing, so they piloted a needle 744 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: syringe needle exchange program in that area, but it was 745 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: quickly shut down by this influential senator said this of 746 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: the third who said that there's a Western minded thinking 747 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: that seeks to minimize the harm done to others by 748 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: using the so called harmarductional strategy. So he basically said 749 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 1: that Western solutions are not fit for Eastern mindset. We 750 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: are losing hundreds of thousands of our youth to drugs 751 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: and we cannot adopt something as disastros as this harmarductional strategy. 752 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: So he opposed this nettle exchange program in Simbu, and 753 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: people like him are likely to keep opposing these programs 754 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: in the next few years at least. And are they 755 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: aware that even countries like Malaysia and Indonesian, Vietnam and 756 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: others have set up their own little needle exchange programs. 757 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: I mean, is there an awareness that Asia has changed 758 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,279 Speaker 1: at least a little bit, even in the midst of 759 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,040 Speaker 1: all their drug wars, they still recognize the need for 760 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: these programs. In a limited way to try to deal 761 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: with HIV and such. Yeah, that kind of response wasn't 762 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: captured or wasn't salient in those debates at that time. 763 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,399 Speaker 1: One of the challenges is to have voices who would 764 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: actually prominent voices wh would astolutely refute prominently these arguments. 765 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:28,040 Speaker 1: We didn't see that that then, But now that the 766 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: drug war of the third day has really awakened people 767 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: into the need to respond, I believe that there will 768 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: be more responses, there will be more effective arguments against 769 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:45,239 Speaker 1: such kinds of approaches. Do I hear a trace of 770 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 1: optimism in your voice gidding about where things are headed? 771 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: I would like to be optimistic. I think the fact 772 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,919 Speaker 1: that there are enough academics, for example, to even write 773 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,600 Speaker 1: a book about drugs, when if you look at the 774 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,800 Speaker 1: scholarship there was very few people who are doing this. 775 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: That in itself is a statement that academics in the 776 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 1: country are are not going to accept this status coude 777 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,440 Speaker 1: where we're going to going to challenge it and we 778 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,760 Speaker 1: will continue doing research. There are also civil society organizations 779 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:22,840 Speaker 1: that have continued to do work around these issues. And 780 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: of course, having seen that the destruction and the death 781 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: that the third has cost over the past six years 782 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: obvious drug war. I think people are really aware of 783 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: what's at stake with things like drug users are a 784 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: subhumans or drug users are zombies. There will be unrehabilitation. 785 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: These discourses can enable the killings of so many people, 786 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: and they have to be challenged forcefully. They have to 787 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: be challenged vigorously, and I think more people are aware 788 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,279 Speaker 1: of that, and that gives be optimizing. So, I mean 789 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 1: I read about and hear about all of the attacks 790 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,680 Speaker 1: on the people who oppose the drug war. I mean 791 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: de Tourte obviously going after you know, Senator Layla dilemma right, 792 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,480 Speaker 1: um or the attacks and Maria Arressa, the Nobel Prize 793 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: winning journalists has dealt with. You know, they've got these 794 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: what they called patriotic trollers, you know, the people on 795 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,799 Speaker 1: the internet who just gang up on anybody who speaks openly. Um. 796 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 1: It seems that you know, you know, the church said, 797 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: I'm happy they killed journalists, not just drug addicts. H 798 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,800 Speaker 1: I mean, haven't you been worried about getting into this 799 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:36,879 Speaker 1: line of work? I mean, if you had to deal 800 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: with with challenges or or any levels of fear or 801 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,760 Speaker 1: threats of that sort. It's definitely I'm a big concerned. 802 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: Just a few weeks ago, one of my colleagues who 803 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 1: wrote about our religious organization, who was supporting the Third Day, 804 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 1: receive a cyber relabel case against him, which is a 805 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,520 Speaker 1: criminal offense in the Philippines, and he now has to 806 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 1: deal with that case. So the law has been weaponized 807 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: against academics, has been weaponized against critics, and also the 808 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: Philippine Center for Investigative Journalism, which I'm part of the 809 00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 1: board of that organization of investigative journalism, and at one 810 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 1: point the presidential spokesperson basically declared that our organization was 811 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: a communist front or plotting to overthrow the government. So 812 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: they're outlandish agganizations and you have to deal with it. Unfortunately, 813 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,360 Speaker 1: that's the climate right now in the Philippines. But I 814 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: think that the stakes are are really are really so 815 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 1: high that we cannot even let those threats stop us. 816 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: Let me just following the churchy over these last six years, 817 00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,799 Speaker 1: and obviously I've been focused on the drug who are 818 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: in the way in which he is you use that 819 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 1: and been successful with it, but also looking at his 820 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,279 Speaker 1: you know, overwhelming popularity, and then you look around you know, 821 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,440 Speaker 1: you see Orbon in Hungary, you know Bolson Narrow in Brazil, 822 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,640 Speaker 1: obviously putin um I mean even I mean literally, when 823 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,160 Speaker 1: Trump got elected some months after Deterday was elected back 824 00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,319 Speaker 1: in you know, two people understood the reference I would 825 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,480 Speaker 1: talk about. I would describe, you know, Trump as Dode 826 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,920 Speaker 1: with orange hair, I mean, because the same kind of 827 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: outrageous rhetoric and this kind of appealing to people's most 828 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,839 Speaker 1: based instincts. But it does sound like authoritarianism is really 829 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,319 Speaker 1: just gaining ground all around the world, and the Philippines, 830 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,800 Speaker 1: which was among the more democratic nations in Asia for 831 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,320 Speaker 1: many years, looks like it may be sliding down this 832 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: slippery slope as well. What do you think, Well, what's 833 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:54,800 Speaker 1: truly global for sure in what's happening to the Philippine 834 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 1: politics today is that candidates have weaponized the Internet too 835 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,800 Speaker 1: to further their propaganda. So if you think about the 836 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: two leading candidates in the elections today, Bambo Marcus and 837 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,680 Speaker 1: Lenny Robredo, these two handidates actually already fought for the 838 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,279 Speaker 1: vice presidency in twenty sixteen, and Lenny Robredo one. So 839 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 1: Bambo Marcus was defeated by a hair but was still 840 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: defeated by Larry Robretto in What changed is that Bamma 841 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: Marcus invested so much over the past several years in 842 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:35,720 Speaker 1: this information stargetting young people, creating TikTok videos, creating vlogs, 843 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 1: YouTube videos, really weaponizing social media. So that has allowed 844 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:49,080 Speaker 1: him to be very popular today, notwithstanding the the fact 845 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,640 Speaker 1: that just a few decades ago his family basically plundered 846 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:57,000 Speaker 1: the whole country into bankruptcy and perpetrated so many human 847 00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,360 Speaker 1: hearts abuses during his father's two decades right over the country. 848 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: So there's that element to be mindful of that explains 849 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,520 Speaker 1: in part what's going on. And of course, although the 850 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 1: third as a populist authoritarian and emerging twenty sixteen, there 851 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:21,080 Speaker 1: are procedents in the in the countries history of people 852 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 1: who are also very populist and also received a lot 853 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 1: of support, So that after Joseph Estrada, who was the 854 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:35,480 Speaker 1: president from thousand one until he was impeached, he ran 855 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: for president again in twenty ten, and he nearly one. 856 00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 1: If not for this other son of Horizonatino who replaced 857 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:49,360 Speaker 1: for didn't Marcus when the dictator was outstead she was 858 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 1: the one who who became the president, So there's really 859 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: a precedent of people who are campaigning on very simplistic 860 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 1: platforms but are also very popular and managing to win 861 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 1: despite their past crime, past record of corruption, and even 862 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,920 Speaker 1: human has abuses. So in that sense, the Philippines, again, 863 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,400 Speaker 1: the thirdest Right is not really so much exceptional as 864 00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,680 Speaker 1: it is a acculimination of what's been going on in 865 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 1: Philippine politics for for a long time. Obviously, if this 866 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: Bong book Marcos the Son of the Dictator wins, then 867 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,920 Speaker 1: there's really a lot of concern. I'm very concerned about 868 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,320 Speaker 1: the direction that the country will go, and that means 869 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,360 Speaker 1: more of this disdain for democracy, more of these relations 870 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 1: of human rights and outright authority. On the other hand, 871 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:47,000 Speaker 1: if Lenny Robredo wins, who she's basically the leader of 872 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 1: the opposition right now and they has managed to to 873 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,840 Speaker 1: galvanize various opposition groups, from the leftist groups to people 874 00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 1: who are from the Liberal Party and different other groups. 875 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,000 Speaker 1: If she wins, she has is one of the people 876 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: who have spoken about the need for a humane approach 877 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,719 Speaker 1: to to drugs, So there's reason to hope that he 878 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: will at least and do some of the damage that 879 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,280 Speaker 1: the Third has done so much will really depend on 880 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: the elections that are coming. The fact that Lending Robreto 881 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:28,640 Speaker 1: managed to win in TwixT despite having traditional politicians as 882 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: her opponents, speaks of the possibility that all hope it's 883 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: not lost and that if she doesn't win in May, 884 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: and the fact that she can still raise a significant 885 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:44,360 Speaker 1: movement means that the forces in the country who are 886 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,120 Speaker 1: concerned about democracy, about human rights, and about seeing the 887 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:54,720 Speaker 1: country succeed in many areas, including drugs. It's still a 888 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 1: significant population and that can be h If not the leadership, 889 00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,640 Speaker 1: then they can continue to be a prominent opposition in 890 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 1: the years to come, and they can challenge whatever rehetord 891 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: it will come our way. Do you think there's any 892 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,640 Speaker 1: hope that to Church or others will ever be held 893 00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:15,440 Speaker 1: accountable for their drug war crimes. I doubt it at 894 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:20,760 Speaker 1: this point. The Third, even if he doesn't win, and 895 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,400 Speaker 1: in the unlikely event that his daughter doesn't twin, they 896 00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,440 Speaker 1: still have a bailwick in their hometown of Davo City, 897 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,120 Speaker 1: where they will continue to command a lot of political capital, 898 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,960 Speaker 1: and they might continue to exert a lot of influence 899 00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:43,040 Speaker 1: with whoever wins or the people who will be in power, 900 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,480 Speaker 1: so it will be very difficult to hold him accountable, 901 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:53,400 Speaker 1: even though the people who implemented this drug war alongside 902 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,600 Speaker 1: him will have some penalties like that they will not 903 00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 1: be able to travel in other countries probably and that 904 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 1: might be some kind of sanction to them. But in 905 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: terms of really holding him to account, it will take 906 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 1: a lot of effort on the part of the country 907 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,480 Speaker 1: to to to do it. So no, I am not 908 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 1: very optimistic that it will happen, but it's still important. 909 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: It's still very important to continue with these efforts to 910 00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:26,600 Speaker 1: put him into justice, whether or not they have a 911 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,040 Speaker 1: chance to succeed, because it's still important for the record. 912 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,760 Speaker 1: It's still important as a matter of history, historical record 913 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,200 Speaker 1: that they have been charged. So I hope it will 914 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,080 Speaker 1: still continue. And I think even if in the Philippines 915 00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: the odds are stacked against justice, there are some cases 916 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,400 Speaker 1: that go in our favor. For example, the Key and Delesantos, 917 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 1: who I mentioned earlier as the seventh in year old 918 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: boy who was filmed who was caught on camera being 919 00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,240 Speaker 1: drugged by police officers who would kill him moments later. 920 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Those officers were convicted of murder. They were convicted They're 921 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 1: the only probably at this point, the only case that 922 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,600 Speaker 1: has gone to trial. But the fact that they got 923 01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,360 Speaker 1: convicted despite the third test commitment to these police obviosers 924 01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:19,200 Speaker 1: that he will protect them means that justice has a chance. 925 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,320 Speaker 1: We just need to keep fighting for it. We just 926 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:28,080 Speaker 1: need to keep challenging this kind of drug war well 927 01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,520 Speaker 1: getting I admired immensely your commitment to this and your 928 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,480 Speaker 1: courage and embarking on this line of work. I mean 929 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:36,960 Speaker 1: you and the others in journalism and the human rights 930 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 1: organizations and others who are you know doing the hard 931 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,880 Speaker 1: work and trying to speak truth to power? Are you know, 932 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,160 Speaker 1: really doing the Lord's work here? So Wison, thank you 933 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,680 Speaker 1: ever so much for joining me on Psychoactive and all 934 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,200 Speaker 1: best wishes. Thank you, Ethan. It's really a privilege to 935 01:00:52,280 --> 01:01:01,120 Speaker 1: join you today. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your 936 01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,360 Speaker 1: friends about it, or you can write us a review 937 01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,600 Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We 938 01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,160 Speaker 1: love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to 939 01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,160 Speaker 1: share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us 940 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:17,840 Speaker 1: a message at one eight three three seven seven nine sixty. 941 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:22,560 Speaker 1: That's eight three three psycho zero, or you can email 942 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,040 Speaker 1: us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me 943 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,600 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact 944 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,480 Speaker 1: information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of 945 01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,040 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me 946 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,280 Speaker 1: Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noham Osband and Josh Stain. 947 01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:46,040 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus 948 01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:49,600 Speaker 1: and Darren Aronovsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt 949 01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:53,160 Speaker 1: Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. Our 950 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,920 Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to 951 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:13,760 Speaker 1: ab Brio, s F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next 952 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,600 Speaker 1: week we'll be talking about Russia, by which I mean 953 01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,960 Speaker 1: drug you, drug markets, drug policies, drug wars, all things 954 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,760 Speaker 1: drugs with anious rank perhaps Russia's leading harm reduction activists. 955 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:31,520 Speaker 1: It was just kind of normal for us witnessing the 956 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,880 Speaker 1: same thing every day for many years in Russia, and 957 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,480 Speaker 1: of course it was a huge strategedy and many people, 958 01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,560 Speaker 1: like people did not get any support. They will promise support, 959 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,000 Speaker 1: they will promise that they will be taken to Russia. 960 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,360 Speaker 1: But even like the rebilitation centers and so on, and 961 01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,240 Speaker 1: a few people were but a few people also died 962 01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 1: in this, like reputation programs in Russia, or like they 963 01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:57,280 Speaker 1: run away, or it just never happens. Subscribe to Cycle 964 01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 1: Active now see it, don't miss it.