WEBVTT - Fire Drill 037: Opening Salvo 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.520 I think that if the result today had been different, 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:10.320 and then with players who've been allowed to go back 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.800 on the tour, that would have been devastating to hand 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:20.119 in the GA. I got thoughts in my head. Can't 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:25.360 get them John, Nothing what I'm thinking about? That got 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.440 thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, John, 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:39.920 Not to think what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.640 Alan Schipnak back for another Fire Drill podcast. A little 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:46.400 bit of housekeeping real quick. We want to think our 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.760 sponsors Part Points the best golf scoring at there is 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.479 and Seed Golf, awesome little ball company out of Europe. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.280 They allow us to do fun things like this. So 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.480 tonight we're joined by Matt Janella and a very special 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.200 guest in Peter Ginsberg is one of the pre eminent 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.720 legal minds in the sports field. He represented Vjcing and 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:11.000 his very successful lawsuit against the PGA Tour, and he 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.399 is represented a variety of tour players in different actions 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.160 against the tour, most of which no one ever heard 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.280 of because of Peter's skill keeping things quiet and getting 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.520 things done behind the scenes. So Peter, thank you for 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.440 being here, and let's let's just get right to it. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.120 I was courted today, big verdict. What do you make 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.759 of the tour's first first victory and what's no doubt 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.560 going to be a long legal process. You know, I'm 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:46.360 not terribly surprised. We've been several very confusing, very confusing missteps. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.240 Then the players have really made this all about money 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.960 and a new damage is usually on sufficient sustain a 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.240 request for a joint for relief. They didn't make it 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.760 much about prior to the game and the importance of 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:10.280 the system, the points system. They also waited far too 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.560 long to bring their request for in junctive relief and 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.200 really created the emergency. Like the judge said, So it 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:22.160 wasn't terrible surprising. There's a lot of talk about, you know, 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.119 it's especially for a temporary restraining or there's a high 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.320 threshold to prove the damages, and that was that was 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.920 tossed around by non experts like myself. But can you 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.640 explain to the listeners what live would have had to 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.080 have done or the plaintiffs, I should say three individuals 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.720 would have had to done to win this. Uh this 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.720 tro so let me give you an example. Several years ago, 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.480 I was representing a couple of people from the Minnesota, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.040 like in in case you became known as a star 0:02:53.160 --> 0:03:00.240 capsutation and the commissioner tried to suspend them. I'm not 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.920 going to go into all of the details, but for 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.120 something that they should not have been the subject of 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.160 a substreension, and we went into court and Minnesota to 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.480 ask for a junkerbe We didn't argue about the money loss, 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:19.639 and we didn't argue about policies at the NFL. Instead, 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:25.799 our argument was based on reputation and the pride of 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.600 playing the game, and how much it would tarnish their reputations. 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:36.120 Being heard in that way is an emergency. It can't 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:41.880 be remedied by winning later on, as opposed to simply 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.840 asking for money damages when you can always be compensated retroactively. 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:53.440 So it has to be something more personal and frankly 0:03:53.480 --> 0:04:00.840 more important than simply I'm asking for money. I mean, 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:06.480 I thought the you know, the the plaintiffs lawyer, I mean, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.040 he kept make trying to make the case that the 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.040 FedEx Cup was now the avenue to get into the 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.680 major championships for these players, if they could they get 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.320 in the top thirty, that it's just a great platform 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.039 for building their brand. And he tried to make that 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.040 argument a little bit. But um, the judge didn't seem 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.520 too impress you know, I mean, I guess from from 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.520 your perspective, how how tall a mountain was was this 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.080 for for the plaintiffs to actually climb? I mean it 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.280 seemed like they you know, if you just look at it, 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.080 the fact that they left the tour and now they're 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.560 trying to get get back onto the tour. Uh, it 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.760 was it was going to be an uphill battle. But 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.200 how how much in your in your minds? But how 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.279 how long were the odds against him before before this 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.240 even began. I think the way this is played out, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:56.000 it was like a money grow and and that's who 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:00.640 That's where the judge decided. Yeah, if they had focused 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.919 from the beginning, you know, about the importance of the 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.320 dead actual coup, of the importance of you should you're 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.720 in the meeting for the game, I think they would 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.040 have been far better off. But the people who are 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:17.600 these smokes, people with um are gonna aren't the most 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.880 atractive candidates should be made from that that claim, Matt, 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.279 what were you gonna say? No? I mean I felt 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.599 like we should probably just go back for a second. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.679 For me, from the outside not being in the courtroom. Alan, 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.080 you were there, Peter, You've been in there, you know, 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.240 a good jillion times. I'm sure I've listened to your 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.919 interview on the Stripe Show podcast with Travis Fultman. I 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.400 thought it was very informative. But before we get a little, 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.680 you know, even in more depth, I just I think 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.080 a little bit of color in terms of what the 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.479 courtroom looked like, I think would be fascinating. Yeah, it was. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.839 It's just a gift from the content gods that somehow 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.599 Northern California was as the venue and I can just 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.480 drive up. There's in San Jose's about a hour and 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.520 a half away, and so I blew up there. I 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:08.839 kind of got there a little bit late and I 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.560 was rushing, but walking into the courtroom, it's such a regal, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:18.359 formal setting, and in this chaotic political moment where it 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.640 seems like every institution is under attack and the rule 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.920 of law is always seems to be in question, it 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.279 was neat for me, as someone who is rarely in 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.520 a courtroom, just to see it play out and the 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.640 formality of everyone rises, for the judge and all the 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.600 lawyers and their beautiful Italian suits, you know, that are 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.440 glistening in the lighting. Clearly those suits cost more than 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.400 some of the people's cars in the parking lot. And 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.720 just the the decorum and the respect that the lawyers 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.040 showed for the judge and the whole process, it was. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.159 It was kind of neat to be there, honestly, and 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.120 I enjoyed that aspect of it. And you know, I 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.080 knew nothing about Judge Freeman coming in. I saw in 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.640 gin she's a thirty three handicap. She put does play 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.600 the game. But I thought she was really good. I 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.440 mean she had she had these these lawyers on their 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.000 toes and um, you know a few times I burst 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:18.720 out laughing. Some things were said. I kind of look 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.880 around like, oh sorry. It reminded me of being like, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.560 you know, around a green at Augusta National and someone 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:25.320 whispers something funny to you when you're trying to hold 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:26.560 it in, Like are you allowed to laugh? I don't 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.480 even know what the rules are, but um, there was 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.160 there was some levity, and you know, I really thought 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.760 both sides did a good job in their arguments, you know, 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:40.160 them the plaintiffs, they made some headway. They did explain 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.520 the timeline a little bit. Peter White all these things 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.400 had to happen by the scenes before they could bring 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.240 their suit, and the judge found out persuasive because she 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.040 was dubious to begin with. I thought, I thought the 0:07:53.080 --> 0:08:00.160 tour lawyers really made made some headway in explaining how 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.040 how much these guys knew what they're getting themselves into 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.800 and how much money they had taken. And that was 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.120 kind of a little mini courtroom drama because the judge 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.720 had access to the contracts, so she knows the actual numbers, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.600 and the lawyers know the numbers. They didn't want to 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:15.840 say it out loud, and a couple of times the 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:17.880 different lawyers that came up right to the edge and 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:19.800 the almost said it, and you're like on the precipice 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.880 of something juicy revelation. They pulled themselves back and I 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.119 could see people like me and the other there's twelve reports. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.680 They're kind of leaning forward, like ooh, and you know, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.679 the plaintiff layer lets slip at one point that the 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.959 live earnings are counting against the advance that some of 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.480 these players got. He didn't go in any more detail, 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.000 but that was a little mini bomb show that was 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:46.280 interesting that wasn't and at the same time, you know 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.520 that that can be explained in different ways. Every contracts 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.160 different and some things are bare frontloaded and some have 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.360 it on the back end. So two things can be true. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.640 Were at once, where you win the tournament, they send 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:57.719 you a check, But what that means on the back 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.840 end your deal, who knows. But what when that happened, 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:02.480 you know, I was looking around and some other guys 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.800 were looking around. We made that contact, like, oh that's juicy. 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:06.800 You know, it's just like funny little moments like that. 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.319 It was um And then of course the judge takes 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.920 this fifteen minute break and leave, and so now women's 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.560 in the hallway buzzing about what's going to happen, trying 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.320 to bird dog the lawyers, and and then you go 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:20.800 back in the courtroom and just waiting for it to 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.679 come in, and like it really felt like the emotion 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.440 of it all was fun. I mean, you've been down 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.480 that road many times. But when when you're one of 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.079 those lawyers and you're waiting for the judge to come 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.680 in and render their verdict, Like, what does it feel 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.640 like on the inside for you? Not quite as bad 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.559 as when you're waiting for a jury to come back. 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:46.360 But what was the rationalization did the liverturnments gave from 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:51.240 why they waited so long that there was there was 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.840 all these different protocols that they had, they got suspended, 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:55.520 they had to do, they had to appeal, the peel 0:09:55.559 --> 0:10:01.199 had to be heard. Um the tour uh did X 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.280 they had to do? Why that led to Z and 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.520 I haven't in some of my notes, but it was, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.520 you know, sort of this process that had to play 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.360 out behind the scenes, and the lawyer did a good 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.120 job of laying it out. The tour pushed back a 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.640 little bit, but ultimately in our closing remarks, the judge 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.600 did nod towards the plaintiffs lawyer and said, you know, 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.080 I do agree that this was about as timely as 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.640 it could have been filed, this lawsuit, and so so 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.800 they did a good job explaining that. But you know, really, 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.720 for all the different complicated factors that went into this, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.200 it just came down to um proving that you know, 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.360 I repel were all harm would we'd be done to 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.680 the plaintiffs. And because they'd already gotten so much money 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.400 from live golf, then keep making money. They have other 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.080 ways to play play their way into the majors. Theoretically 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.080 the judge ruled against him, but I thought it was 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:55.959 I thought the lawyers kind of argued to a draw 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.640 and that the deck was are we always stacked towards 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.439 towards a tour on this particular issue, So it was 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:08.559 it was an interesting, interesting kind of repartee. Well, I'm 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:14.760 glad that the justice justice system worked. Yeah, god man, Peter. 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:19.360 I one thing I'm I'm curious about is is your 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.360 sense that that this is all just a part of 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:27.080 the long form process. This literally needed to play out. 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:34.880 Not very surprising that these particular players lost this this battle, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.800 given the case they presented and when they presented it 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.880 and how they presented it, and and yet this will 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.360 be all part of what's going to be the long, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.679 the long narrative arc of of kind of the anti 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.319 trust uh you know battle. I think that's right. I mean, 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.720 think how that if the result today had been different 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.680 and then with players have been allowed go back on 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:06.160 the tour, that would have been devastating to Monahan the FA. 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.720 But I think it's you know, I think the question 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.520 of whether there's an anti trust violation is a closer 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.920 call and far more complicated and will take a while 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.880 to play out. You said that there are two aspects 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.800 of anti trust law, monopoly and conspiracy, and monopoly is 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:28.240 obviously one that seems to be the dark shadow looming 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:35.200 over the PGA tour um. Well, how, how, given given 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:40.840 the fact that it feels like they've been monopolistic and 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.400 and gotten away with it for a long period of time, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.760 how is there a way that they that they win 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.320 the anti trust case. Well, you know, let me let 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.760 me say, I think anyone who tells you how this 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.839 is going to play out who's going to win, is 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:02.319 um being overly confident his or her own abilities, because 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:08.920 they are really very complicated issues. Monopolies can happen because 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:15.720 of nefarious or purposeful actions, and monopolies can happen because 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:24.120 of market forces and events that are not necessarily indicative 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.439 of anti trust violations. And there are certain aspects of 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.440 the doctor world with points in playing in the tournaments 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.240 and things that can have an almost when you were 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:40.240 referred to as a monopolistic effect, but really simply as 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:45.880 a way to strengthen the appeal at the PGA. There 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:52.400 are media rights and media contracts which are more or 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:57.400 less valuable depending on the or the sanctity of the game, 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:04.520 and the higher the contracts are, the more monopolistic the 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.120 game is. Because the persons are high, as so the 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.000 incentive the players high. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.480 anti competitive. It could it could mean just the opposite. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.960 You know. I think that if the the PGA would 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:27.880 do wealth for itself, if it focuses on so many issues, um, 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:36.800 involving the politics, the the sort of psychological aspects of 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:42.000 the game, whether the players themselves feel like the game 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:47.000 will retreated, and their retreat If people from Live, for instance, 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:53.120 are allowed to make their way the tournaments without having 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:59.040 to go through the same rigorous um, you know, rigorous 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:03.400 schedule and and rigorous standards that they have to go through, 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:08.240 it would might be you know, it might be interesting 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.720 if this took the turn so it was less monetized 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.680 to use that it were I think it was used 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.320 in the courtroom today and more focused on what the 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:25.080 effect of the PGA would be. Two um, not to 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.920 buy it against society, Arabian government and the politics of that. 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:31.920 It may be that the PGA are to be taking 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:37.000 a more political standard. UM. I mean, certainly you're not 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.720 going to see an awful lot of basketball players going 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.800 over the rush to play basketball and there I mean, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:49.880 there's certain political undercurrents that might be more attractive and 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:59.120 make this less of a forensic battle over monopoly. So 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.240 you know, I do I think this is just the beginning. Well, 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.440 and that was interesting because in some ways this today's 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:12.400 hearing transcended the moment because whether or not these three players, who, 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.000 let's be honest or not stars in the game, we're 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.880 gonna get to play in the FedEx Cup. I don't 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.080 think anyone was that emotionally invested in that particular question, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:21.680 other than the fact it was just this was the 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.360 first battle, but the larger anti trust case is what 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.360 really matters. And so the tour tipped its hand a 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.360 little bit in its defense when the lawyer, you know, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.040 he put up a slide that showed the player impact 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.320 program from last year and that five of the top 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.920 ten are now playing on on the Live Tour, and 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.880 they had some stats about the three events that Live 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.480 has played, how many elite players have had in the 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.760 field versus the PGA Tour event that same week, and 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:50.560 it was it was stacked in the direction of Live, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.960 and you know, the lawyer basically says something the effect like, 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.880 I'm sorry to say, but the competition is fierce, and 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.680 so the tour is in this funny position of now 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.720 what they haven't wanted to acknowledge Live publicly, but now 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.600 in the court of law they're saying, Hey, these guys 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.240 are kicking ass and they're a real threat. We can't 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.359 be ANOPU laue because they're taking all our players and 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.480 they got better players than we do, and so they're 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.520 kind of it's a little dance between the public relations 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.440 you get in the Jay Monhan's press conferences and then 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.920 the legal argument is totally contrary to that. So I 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.880 thought that was an interesting part of today the tour 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:30.200 on some level, conceding defeat to Live, which then might 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.719 end up biting them when it comes to the battle 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.159 of World golf rankings and whether or not that you know, 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.800 whether or not Live deserves the rankings, and whether or 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.560 not Live can taggle their competitive you know, forum to 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.240 be four rounds instead of three, that that could end 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.920 up being being used against them, Yes or no. I 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:52.880 kind of doubt that the world rankings are PGA focused clearly, 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:57.119 and Live can have its own ranking system. But I 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:01.600 think then as long as the PGA doesn't conspire with 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:07.320 the majors and as long as you Live is you know, viable, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.000 it's going to be it's going to be difficult to 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:15.760 prove anti competitive behavior. Yeah, I mean what you're saying, 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.600 Matt is interesting because there's there's the quest, and both 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.840 both entities, the Tour and Live are also battling in 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:23.960 the court of public opinion, which is different than a 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:28.919 court of law, and so um it is there's a 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.720 little dance going on which I found intriguing. And even 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.240 on the point of um, you know this is this 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.040 is different, but this it looked like there was going 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:43.399 to be a key point in the ruling was whether 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.840 or not the commissioner has the absolute power when when 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.520 someone is suspended for any reason, that they can like 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.560 make them sit out tournaments. Because in one regulation Peter 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.119 said that when when you're on appeal, you're you're allowed 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.680 to keep playing. But then there's another by law that said, well, 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:05.560 the tour, the commissioner, at his discretion essentially can even 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.160 someone who's on appeal, he can bar from playing because 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.520 this their very presence could be so inflammatory. The lawyer 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.639 used kind of a weird example if a guy had 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.280 hate speech on his hat, that's not going to happen. 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.600 But you know, the idea that these live golfers would 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.919 show up wearing live gear at at one of the 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.720 PGA Tour flagship events, it was kind of a fun 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:30.000 thought exercise. And you know, I think the tour dodged 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.560 a bullet there because the judge is not overly impressed 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:37.080 by the language in these regulations. But it does speak 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.879 to a larger question that abuses this whole debate is 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.000 how much power does the commissioner have to set policy? 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.080 Does he work for the players or do the players 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.720 work for him? And I know you've jousted with Tim 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.520 fincham anam with Jay Monahan, and I want to get 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.680 your opinion on the unique role of the PGA Tour 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.159 commissioner to set policy and to make unilateral decisions. What 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.280 is their role and when it comes to dealing with 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:07.280 their own membership to say, for for Monahan to say 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:13.480 that he works for the players is fashionable. I mean Monahan, 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.480 Monahan runs the PGA, and if the PGA is successful, 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.720 the players make more money. So in that very simplistic 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:28.479 way he could he can without breaking you know, laughing 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:35.439 out loud, make that clean. But Monahan has really almost 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:40.680 unfettered power in many ways. He has greater power than 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:47.119 commissioners of other leaders because since the players are independent 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:52.440 contractors and there's no union representing the players, and Monahan 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:57.080 doesn't have the and I can the the the the 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:03.240 anti competition or exemption that some of the other commissioners 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.359 have it. On the other hand, he doesn't have any 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:13.720 group fighting against him. Golfers, by their nature, are not 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:19.800 a particular cohesive group. They don't really and they have 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:26.520 never historically joined together to fight for any particular principles 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.919 as far as I know. So in that respect, Mona 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.040 handles more. It can be more draftonian than some of 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.920 the other sports commissioners. Peter, if Phil Nicholson had called 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.640 you a year and a half ago and said, look, 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:47.400 I've got some gripes, I got some issues. I'm doing 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.439 these side games. They're charging me a million bucks. I 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.639 don't have a control over my brand, my ability to 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:58.080 market my brand. We don't have a collective bargaining agreement 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.000 within the structure of the PAH or unlike all the 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:06.840 other sports. Peter, I want you to help me form 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.119 a group of players to take on the PGA tour. 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:14.639 I mean, is that would that have been a better 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:19.160 system a way of going about this then going out 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.639 and forming a breakaway tour with Saudi Arabia and undermining 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.320 sort of like if Nicholson had called you a long 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.040 time ago and sort of started fresh, would would you 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:30.680 have taken the case? And do you think you would 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:33.919 have had a better case than what? And then the 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.280 way this is all unfolded. Oh well, let me answer 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:43.520 the first question first. I've had that conversation with some 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:48.119 other players and I've tried to make that point. But 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:55.560 golfers are very independent, independent people, and it was very 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:59.119 hard to convince a core group of them to organize 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.480 sort of wrestles some of the control from the commissioner 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:09.720 the institute's programs that are fair to the individual players. 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:14.960 I think you know your second question is whether it 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:18.199 would be better, and I guess that depends on what 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:22.080 their goals are. If their goals are to make more money, 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.080 I think that they lived tour probably is better for 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:31.240 Niffers than if he had formed a unit to fight 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:36.720 the PGA, and the better protect the player's rights, and 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:41.480 if that's his priority, that's his priority for sure. I 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.760 think if you could ever organize the members to actually 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:52.119 act together for a greater good, it could make the 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:57.040 game a lot better. It could make the sort of 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:02.200 procedural protections and other safeguards much stronger for the players. 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:07.760 Like I said, if if all nifolers really cares about money, 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.680 he probably went about in the way that it's better 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:16.719 from Nicholson. Yeah, I'm not sure that he particularly cares 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:20.760 about the game as much as he cares about himself 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:24.960 at leastuch sort of just my opinion from watching him 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:32.359 and listening to him over the years. Interesting how much 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:37.679 weight should this decision carry? You know, if you're if 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:39.119 you're a fan and you're trying to make sense of 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:41.320 all this, It's like, Okay, the tour is going to 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.879 declare victory um, and they've I've already my inbox, I'm 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:49.119 already getting statements and from the tour, and and you 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:54.200 know they're they're trumpeting this like a major political victory. 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.280 But in the larger scheme, can can you give some 0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:59.800 context to what this this really means? Like I should 0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:01.560 be where I really do think this is just the 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.879 first step. And I think at this point, the PA 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:09.560 you ought to sort of step back and think about 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:16.760 their overall strategy and whether over lisening members views on 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:24.480 this and thinking about some of the political positions that 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:29.440 can be taken would benefit them in the long run. 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:32.480 I think it's really it is the first step, and 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:34.359 it's too early to tell how this is going to 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:37.800 play out and to give us to people some idea 0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:40.160