1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: my name is Nolan. 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: super producer Paul Mission Control Decade. Most importantly, you are here, 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: to know. Today we are exploring a harrowing tale of 11 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: true unsolved crime with a fair number of disturbing implications. Now, 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: as with any episode of this nature, we want to 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: open with a disclaimer. The following episode contains, at times 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: graphic depictions of violence, assault and murder. As such, this 15 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: may not be appropriate for all listeners. Our tale, so 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: far as we can pinpoint, begins in Texas. Here are 17 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: the facts. Let's build from specifics. 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 3: On August twenty second, nineteen ninety, Cheryl Henry and Garland Atkinson, 19 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 3: who was referred to by his friends as Andy, went 20 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: out for a night on the town. It was a 21 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,279 Speaker 3: double date with Cheryl's younger sister, Shame and her fella, 22 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 3: and the group went to a local hangout, which is 23 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 3: a sports bar called by you Mama's, which is a 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 3: fabulous name for a sports bar. 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, if you grew up in the 26 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: United States, you're well aware that every town has a 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: place like this, Right, you don't have to be in 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: a big city. There's a local hangout spot, a watering hole. 29 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: It might be community center, it might be a sports bar, 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: it might be a Walmart parking lot, which happens often. 31 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: You just want to hang out and vibe with your community. 32 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: Or a bar. Yeah. 33 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: Sure, depending on the size of said community, those choices 34 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 3: are going to be pretty limited. 35 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but like you said, and there's often a bar 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 2: that's open a little later than the other ones. I 37 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 2: know there's one like that near where I am. 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: Copy. All right, let's go hang out there around eleven PM. Again, 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: as you said, Noel. On August twenty second, nineteen ninety 40 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: these couples part ways, so the double date leaves. Now 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: it's just the couples and they go off to hang out. 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: Of course, this happens, right. You want to have your 43 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: romantic time in addition to your social time. By the 44 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: next morning, no one had heard from Cheryl Henry and 45 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: Andy Atkinson. Andy's grandmother actually called Andy's father, who's also 46 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: named Garland, and said, hey, Andy didn't come home. I 47 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: haven't heard from him. And like most dads, Andy's father 48 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: thinks nothing drastic at this point. He thinks, hey, they're adults. 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: Maybe they just had a wild night together. This is 50 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: very common. You can see Garland the Elder talking about 51 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: this in a pretty extensive interview in twenty nineteen. But 52 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: things continue. Additionally, Cheryl's father talks to Andy's dad and says, hey, 53 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: I haven't heard from my daughter. And this is where 54 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: Andy's dad starts to get concerned. The parents and the 55 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: family decide to contact police. Again absolutely absolutely reasonable. But 56 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: sometime during August twenty second or twenty third, sometime in 57 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: the wee hours, person finds an abandoned car at a 58 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: place called Enclave Round. This is the known makeout spot. 59 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: This is the Lover's Lane. It's a we pulled up 60 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: the map to look at this. If you look at 61 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: where this is located, you see it's right around Enclave Parkway, 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: which is a separated road. Right, there's a median in 63 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: between it, and it's pretty near a huge Cisco Corporation building. 64 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: It's the kind of place like you know, it's a 65 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: closed down office park. It's secluded. 66 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: But at that time in nineteen ninety, there was almost 67 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: nothing there. 68 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: Right, there's been a lot of build up. That's a 69 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: great point, Matt. Back when this occurred, it was just 70 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: the Cisco and maybe one other big building. 71 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: It was referred to as an end of developed area 72 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: by the reporting at the time. 73 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 3: Right. 74 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when this car is discovered, things look disturbing 75 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: from the jump. The keys are still in the car. 76 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's a detail that you found in the 77 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 3: left in the ox position. 78 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: What does that mean exactly? 79 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 3: Is that like when you're sort of like you can 80 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: have the radio on but the engine's not running correct. 81 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And uh Andy's dad was able to confirm in 82 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: that twenty nineteen interview that there was a tape in 83 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: the player. So so if we're speculating, and we don't 84 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: want to do too much speculation just yet, if we're speculating, 85 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: then we see that these seats were reclined as well, 86 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: the keys are in the ox position, we got some 87 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: music playing, we're in a secluded area. Maybe it's time 88 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: to make out this. 89 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 3: Is very zodiac, is it not? 90 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: It does feel a little similar. It's a couple in 91 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: a car. If they music, yeah, well yeah, I'm not 92 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: sure about the music. I just know that it was 93 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: a couple taking their time, right. 94 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm actually conflating it. The Zodiac part is the 95 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 3: lover's laying part. The music part is the Son of Sam. 96 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 3: The Son of Sam killer, you know, happened upon somebody 97 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: in a car and they were listening to a particular song, 98 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: like a Creeden's Clearwater Revival song. 99 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: Or something like that. 100 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 3: I remember all of this because of the movie Copycat 101 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: with what's his name Harry Connick Junior and Sigourney Weaver. 102 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 3: There's a killer who's reenacting all of these crimes, and 103 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 3: he does Son of Sam and he does Zodiac, and 104 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: these are the two scenarios that he reenacts, and in 105 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 3: this particular one, it's kind of those two combined. 106 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: Speaking of twos, there were two other details that stood 107 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: out immediately. What were those? 108 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: Oh well, stuff that was left in the car that 109 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: makes it seem pretty obvious that the couple left the 110 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: car quickly or were removed from the car and they 111 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: never made it back. There was I believe a handbag 112 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: in the floorboard, and even some shoes. I don't know 113 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: if those were Ryl's shoes or not. I think they 114 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: were right. 115 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: They probably were. All we can say with certainty was 116 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: that they were women's shoes, right. And the most disturbing detail, 117 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: perhaps is that there was blood in the interior of 118 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: the car. 119 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: Before we move on from the car, guys, I saw 120 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: in some of the reporting that it was referred to 121 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: as a white I think Honda Civic this vehicle, but 122 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: then Garland mentions that it was maybe maybe I conflated 123 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: something the father said in a later interview that you 124 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: mentioned Ben something about a red Camaro. 125 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: He had a red Camaro and his son asked to 126 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: borrow it for the date. However, the Camaro had some issues. 127 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: Oh okay, So they weren't in the Camaro, they were 128 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: in the white car. 129 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: They were in the Civic, okay. And so police are 130 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: looking at this abandoned vehicle, and they quickly learn the 131 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: car belongs to this kid, Andy. And at this point 132 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: Andy has already been reported as a missing person, as 133 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: has Cheryl. So law enforcement brings in a canine unit 134 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: and the dog is out there sniffing around and leads 135 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: police to a strange agglomeration a golf club and three 136 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: golf balls that appear to point toward a spot in 137 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: the nearby woods. The dog guides authorities toward the spot, 138 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: and about two hundred yards away from the car, police 139 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: find the body of Cheryl Henry. 140 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 3: She was lying face down under some fence planks which 141 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 3: were rotted. I imagine this was something that had been 142 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: found and gathered and piled on her in the hopes 143 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 3: of obscuring, you know, the body. It looks that like 144 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 3: they were pride from some sort of you know, kind 145 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 3: of ramshackle fence that wasn't too far off from where 146 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 3: they found her, and just kind of, you know, in 147 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: a bit of a ditch effort just to you know, 148 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: hide the body, just sort of loosely stacked there. She 149 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 3: did have signs of sexual assault that were visible, and 150 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: her clothes had been cut off of her and place 151 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 3: well not place really, kind of chucked nearby, and she 152 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: had her hands bound behind her back and had been 153 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: brutally murdered. Some sort of you know, bladed weapon been 154 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: used to cut her throat. 155 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there were three slashes along her throat. 156 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: It's very puzzling to me that they're a here to 157 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: be some kind of trail pointing towards where her body 158 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: was found, and she had like effort had been taken 159 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: to conceal her body. It's very strange to me that 160 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: those two things are coinciding here. 161 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, at which point we have to wonder whether there 162 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: was whether the use of that old fence, those fence blanks, 163 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: were they meant to cover the body or was it 164 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: more disrespect right, Because we will see there are possible signifiers, 165 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: let's call them psychologically of important note, there were two 166 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: other anomalous objects nearby. You will see that there was 167 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of deflated balloons, you know how you would 168 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: fill up like helium balloons for birthday party or something, 169 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: and they deflate over time. There were some draped over 170 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: a tree that are not thought to be associated with 171 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: this murder. But there was also a second strange object, 172 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: a twenty dollars bill tossed on the ground near the body. 173 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: Cheryl Henry was twenty two years old at the time 174 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: of her demise, and we do ask that you take 175 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: the time to check out the interview that Andy's father 176 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: held in twenty nineteen. He describes how one law enforcement official, 177 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:38,479 Speaker 1: the one who discovered Cheryl's body volunteered to keep watch overnight, 178 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: and sometime during the wee hours or the next morning, 179 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: this person found the body of Andy as well. Andy 180 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: was murdered. Andy was murdered in a similar way, his 181 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: throat slashed, but he was fully clothed. Is about fifty 182 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: to one hundred yards away from where they found ryl. 183 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: Henry's body, and he was either seated with his hands 184 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: tied behind him against the tree, or he was tied 185 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: to the tree but his hands were bound and his 186 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: throat was slashed so violently that his head was almost 187 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: entirely removed from his body. Jesus like, down to the bone. 188 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd heard that he was tied to the. 189 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: Tree, right, Yeah, saw that as well. 190 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: Still Chronicle stated that a couple times okay. 191 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is Houston Chronicle is probably the best source 192 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: for contemporaneous reporting of this incident. He didn't get robbed, 193 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: though he was murdered brutally, but he still had a watch, 194 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: he still had money on his person. It seems that 195 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: robbery was not the motive. This young man was murdered 196 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: when he was only twenty one years old, and police 197 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: are immediately on the case, they identify several suspects. They're 198 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: looking at the web of social interaction and relationships. But 199 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind this is in the 200 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: days of recoverable DNA. So they conducted DNA tests using 201 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: evidence recovered from the remains of RYL Henry, and they 202 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: asked their initial suspects for DNA samples, and each and 203 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: everyone came back proving the innocence of those initial suspects. 204 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: Fast forward two thousand and two. 205 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: That's right, that's when the Houston PD DNA lab was 206 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 3: actually closed due to some malfeasance of some kind. Right, well, maybe, okay, 207 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 3: there were some issues with the way that it had 208 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: been run. The chain of custody, you know, there's all 209 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: kinds of issues with that. When it comes to samples, 210 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: it can throw an entire case in a disarray. So 211 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 3: hundreds of DNA samples because of the way they were handled, 212 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: had to be retested. Houston PD have said they're confident 213 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 3: in the lab work done on this case, but the 214 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: DNA evidence was independently retested in two thousand and four, 215 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: and in this independent testing something popped. They found a match. 216 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a DNA sample that was taken from 217 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: Cheryl at this initial crime scene that we're talking about, 218 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: that matched a DNA sample from an attack and rape 219 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: of another woman that occurred on June twentieth, nineteen ninety. 220 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: And this person, the second victim that we're talking about here, 221 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: she's an unnamed person. She was a victim, and well, 222 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: I guess we can go into the full detail, but 223 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: it's for now in this moment in the story, there 224 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: was a match, right, So there's this same person has 225 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: attacked and raped at least two women that the police 226 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: are aware of at this. 227 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: Point, and this person survives. But you what would think 228 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: before we go any further that with such a damning connection, 229 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement would be able to solve this tragic murder. 230 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: DNA is collected in so many ways. Now you go 231 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: to the incarceration system, your DNA is collected. You enroll 232 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: in military service, your DNA is collected. A family member 233 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: signs up for something like ancestry or twenty three AE meters, 234 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: that DNA is collected. But this murder remains unsolved. Tragically, 235 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: this hasn't led to any results as we record today, 236 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: We're going to take a moment for a word from 237 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: our sponsors. And then we'll dive in to the problems, 238 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: the implications, and the tragedy of the Lover's Lane murders. 239 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. As we said, this double 240 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: homicide remains unsolved today. This sexual assault a few months 241 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: before also remains unsolved. All we know for certain is 242 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: that the DNA associated with that assault matches the DNA 243 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: associated with this double homicide. And maybe we start by 244 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: looking at the similarities here. Right, this is a note 245 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: the unnamed, still living victim of that earlier assault in 246 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: June that you mentioned, Matt. This victim was able to 247 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: provide a composite sketch of her attacker. Before we get 248 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: into her story, let's talk a little bit about what 249 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: a composite sketch is. How would you describe. 250 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: This composite sketches. You've got a witness, an eyewitness, who 251 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: describes in his best details as they can, the way 252 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: a person looks all the physical features of a person, 253 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 2: and then an artist makes a rendering of that. Right 254 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: at the time in nineteen ninety, you can see in 255 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: this composite sketch that it appears to have been done 256 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: with pencil and paper. Right, created a sketch of a 257 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 2: person which then gets released to the public and says, hey, 258 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 2: have you seen this person? Right? 259 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: And these are notoriously unreliable. That's something we need to 260 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 1: set out. A lot of innocent people have gone to 261 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: prison based on the interpretive actions of law enforcement. Right, 262 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: we're looking for unnamed blackmail age fifteen to fifty five. 263 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean think about the We're just we're 264 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: bringing up the Zodiac sketch. There were numerous suspects who 265 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 2: were drawn with one of these composite sketches and nobody 266 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: was ever caught. You know, it's a theoretically, it's a 267 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: good idea, and they have been used in the past 268 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: find the person, right, but it's always matching up that 269 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: the likeness within that composite sketch with other circumstantial or 270 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: hard evidence that you know, can prove it in a 271 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 2: court of why, it's never the sketch itself. 272 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: Well, and if it's a sketch of someone that might 273 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 3: be and like you, like you're saying that in a 274 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: group that's already kind of profiled or rife for profiling, 275 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 3: then it could just cause a whole Pandora's box of problems. 276 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: Right, And to get a sense of the problem we're describing. 277 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: All you have to do is check out cases where 278 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: a composite sketch was released and then the person who 279 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: committed the crime was found, and you can look at 280 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: the sketch, and you can look at the picture of 281 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: the actual person, and you can say, kind of, I 282 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: guess you know, two eyes a nose. Okay, they're in 283 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: the ballpark, But in the ballpark does not equal justice. 284 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to get into the story of this 285 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: unnamed victim of this assault that occurred just a few 286 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: months prior to the double murders. And again, this may 287 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: not be appropriate for all listeners, So let's go back 288 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: June twentieth, nineteen ninety. 289 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 3: Okay, so we're talking June twentieth of nineteen ninety. The 290 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: victim left Gigi's, their place of employment, at around two am, 291 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: and went to her boyfriend's house and found him to 292 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 3: not be at home, so she hung out in the 293 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: living room ate some takeout food that was there. I 294 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 3: don't think you can get takeout at two am usually, 295 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 3: so I'm assuming that it was something that was already 296 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 3: in the fridge. And then she went upstairs and went 297 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: to bed, and as she approached the bedroom. Somebody emerged 298 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: from the darkness with a stocking over their face and 299 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: we're just going to, you know, call out a male here, 300 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:09,239 Speaker 3: I guess, with gloves on and a dark shirt and pants. 301 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 3: It has often been described and much kind of hay 302 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 3: has been made of it being some sort of uniform. Right, 303 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: let's see, you were saying off my map. 304 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 2: Yes. At least according to the descriptions of the victim, 305 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: it appeared to be a uniform of some sort. 306 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: And this was someone that would have seemingly been familiar 307 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: with her and her boyfriend, because he called her boyfriend 308 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: out by. 309 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: Name, yes, and he said something to the effect of 310 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: your boyfriend owes me money. That's why I'm here, basically 311 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: with this gun. 312 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: And he had this firearm. He identified at least appeared 313 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: to identify himself as someone who knew the victim's partner, 314 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: and then deployed duct tape to bind the victim's hands 315 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: at the risk and put duct tape over her eyes 316 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: and over her mouth, and then put what seems to 317 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: be a pillowcase over her head in addition to the 318 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: duct tape, then assaulted her during the assault. This is 319 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: per the victim. The assailant appeared to taunt her and 320 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: said she was not very observant and pointed out that 321 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: he was or seemed to imply that he was wearing 322 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: a military uniform. Later law enforcement will speculate this was 323 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: an attempt to execute or red herring right, that this 324 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: was not actually a member of the military, but was 325 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: wearing something militaristic like a security guard uniform. And you'll 326 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: find this interesting. You'll find people arguing this victim had 327 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: things in common with Ryl Henry, according to some source, 328 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: as we found, Cheryl also worked at a dance club 329 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: called Rick's Cabaret, and Andy himself at least occasionally worked 330 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: the front door of another similar club in which his 331 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: father was a manager. This led police to think the 332 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: suspect either worked in a strip club or was a 333 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: regular customer. Crucial note here, Cheryl's brother came on to 334 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,239 Speaker 1: a couple of different online forums and straightened out some 335 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: facts about this narrative. Per her brother quote, Cheryl worked 336 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: as an eye doctor that summer while home from school. 337 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: She met Andy at a place called Yucatan Liquor. It's 338 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: a liquor stand, and she met Andy through her girlfriend, 339 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: who was dating a guy that worked with Andy so 340 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: per her family. As far as we know, she was 341 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: working at an optometris op themol but not at this 342 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: topless bar Rick's cabaret. 343 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 2: That summer though. But she had worked previously at a 344 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 2: gentleman's club. I never saw within the thing that it 345 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: was refuted that she ever worked there, right. I think 346 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: it was just like at the time after she is working, 347 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: and we should mention gigs that the unnamed victim where 348 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: she was working until two am in the morning is 349 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: a gentleman's club or a topless bar of some sort. 350 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: Now, there's only one thing we can say with certitude 351 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: at this point. The DNA in both cases matches. The 352 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: same criminal that assaulted this unnamed victim in June of 353 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety also assaulted Cheryl Henry in August of the 354 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: same year, just a few months after. And it gets worse. 355 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: We were jumping around a bit in time, right. Let's 356 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: jump to two thousand and one, when police received an 357 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: anonymous note that is directly addressed to Houston PD and says, quote, 358 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: if you want to know who killed C. Henry and A. Atkinson, 359 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: it will cost one hundred thousand dollars. 360 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 3: Pretty reasonable all things considered. 361 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, well but it's really weird right the way 362 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 2: it was just sent to the Houston Police Department. And 363 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: it also set in there if you want to reply 364 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 2: to this, if you actually want to know, then you 365 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: have to reply within this classified column or the personal 366 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: column of the Houston Chronicle. And what did they also say, 367 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 2: ben something about, oh, by the way, I'm hiring a lawyer, 368 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: right to make sure you don't try any funny business. 369 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: Right, cool, let's keep this part on the up and up. 370 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: They said, play it straight, I think is the phrase 371 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: they used. 372 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so there's there's an interesting thing here in 373 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: terms of operations, right, the idea of giving police instructions 374 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: about response replied to me in the classified section of 375 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: this publicly available newspaper on this specific date, and the 376 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: police complied they received no response. This led the law 377 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: enforcement of the area to believe that the author was 378 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: someone who may have had information of some sort or 379 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: believe they had info of some sort on the actual murderer. 380 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: But they began to conclude the author of this anonymous 381 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: note was not the killer itself. 382 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that would make sense, right, You're not 383 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 2: going to try and get paid one hundred thousand dollars 384 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: to admit that you killed somebody. Maybe I don't know. 385 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't know either, I mean their price. The thing 386 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: they're trying to ransom or sell off is the identity 387 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: of the criminal, right. 388 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but it sounds like somebody that overheard something 389 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: at a bar maybe or a gentleman's club, right, and 390 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 2: is just trying to make some money off of that information. 391 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: Not a paragon of ethics, of course. If you have 392 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: information like that, then you should do your best to 393 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: see justice done, and you shouldn't charge for it. As 394 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: time wound on, investigators amateur and professional alike began to 395 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: think this unknown murderer may have had other victims, which 396 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: leads us to the natural question, was this a serial criminal? 397 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: We only know of three proven victims, but we do 398 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: see an escalation on the part of this perpetrator. 399 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: Escalation is one way of putting it for sure, And 400 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 3: typically we see serial killers, you know, sort of track 401 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 3: based on the way they carry out their crimes. Typically 402 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 3: they have you know, it's referred to as an emma 403 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: or an modus operandi in the way in which they 404 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 3: operate similar weapons, similar types of victims, abducting people in 405 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: similar locations. Perhaps you know patterns, things that profilers you know, 406 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 3: look for when when you see them, you know, in films. 407 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: And in real life. 408 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 3: So the question becomes why a differing modus operandi? And oftentimes, 409 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 3: you know, if you'll see this come up, it tends 410 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 3: to be something that causes the brass to. 411 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: Be like, oh, no, we don't have a serial killer. 412 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 3: Look them's are two different because you know, admitting that 413 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 3: you have a serial killer is like opening up a 414 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: problem for law enforcement because then it's high profile. There 415 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 3: are a lot of eyeballs on it. It kind of 416 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: gets a lot of hearts and minds sort of you know, 417 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 3: invested in the case, and that's not what police want. 418 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 3: They want to get the job done without the pressure 419 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 3: of you got to solve this. This is a serial killer. 420 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 3: So in the first attack, the perpetrator use duct tape 421 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 3: and a gun. There was also the disconnection of the 422 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 3: victim's phone and during you know the age of course 423 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 3: of landline or you can cut it into a conjunction 424 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 3: box or whatever. 425 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: We haven't mentioned that part yet. She later found out 426 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: that the assailant had unplugged the phone. 427 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: So like physically unplug the line from the receiver and 428 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 2: then put the receiver underneath the bed. 429 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's pretty low pretty low tech, right, and 430 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 3: that's something that you know, we anyone could have done. 431 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 3: You have that, you know, the little whatever, it's like 432 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 3: a not a Cat five, but the type of cable 433 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 3: with the little tab you pull it out. You know, 434 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 3: if you're it to the handset, you can't use the phone. 435 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 3: I'm typically thinking when someone's cutting the phone lines and 436 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 3: them doing it like outside, you know, before entering the home. 437 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 3: But this is like way more low tech than that. 438 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: So we also have that familiarity right with the victims. 439 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 3: We we know that the killer said the the victim's 440 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: boyfriend's name, so there is some sense here of premeditation, 441 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: and he you know, had information, He has specific information 442 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 3: as to you know, the the location of the boyfriend 443 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 3: or not maybe on the location, but the absence of 444 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: the boyfriend at the very least. In the second attack, however, 445 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 3: the murderer used rope restraints, not duct tape and a knife, 446 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 3: So we have to wonder whether or not he followed 447 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: the couple and kind of you know, hung out and 448 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,719 Speaker 3: waited for his chance to strike. 449 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, we also have to wonder if the killer knew 450 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 2: the second victims, Cheryl, in some way and had been 451 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 2: following her for some time. We we don't. We have 452 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: no idea if that's the case or not. 453 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: And also have to wonder whether the whether the assailant 454 00:29:52,840 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: knew Andy Atkinson, especially given the violent means of murder there, 455 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: Because one slash to a throat with a bladed object 456 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: is enough to kill someone. If it's deep to continue 457 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: doing that after the person is clearly going to die 458 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: to the point of decapitation, it brings into question psychological 459 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: emotive motivations. And this is a profoundly important question. Was 460 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: this a crime of opportunity? Did someone just happen to 461 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: drive by and follow a car? The couple probably would 462 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: have been aware if someone was tagging behind them, right 463 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: unless they were being quite stealthy about it. Or was 464 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: someone lying and wait, it's a mission critical question, as 465 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: everyone listening tonight. The United States is home to an 466 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: egregious number of unsolved sexual assaults. In twenty seventeen or 467 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: as of twenty seventeen, someone in this country is sexually 468 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: assaulted about every ninety eight seconds, a little more than 469 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 1: a minute and a half. And this means that every 470 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 1: single passing day, more than five hundred and seventy people 471 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: experience sexual violence in this country. Only about three hundred 472 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: and ten of every one thousand assault cases are even 473 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: reported to police. This is horrific. And this also builds 474 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: toward the case that this individual well may have committed 475 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: other crimes right up to and including assault and murder. 476 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean, we can articulate a few important points. One, 477 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: the killer does seem familiar with the clubs slash dam 478 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: scene of Houston in nineteen ninety in the nineties, the 479 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: first attack again late June nineteen ninety, the double murders, 480 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: the double homicide occurring in August the same year, just 481 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: a few months later. And this is where this is 482 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: where we have to start asking some timeline questions. Right 483 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: at this point in nineteen ninety one must have been 484 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: at least eighteen years old to either work at or 485 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: become a customer at clubs like this. It wasn't, in 486 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: fact until twenty twenty one, just a few years back, 487 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: that Texas put in a new law requiring both patrons 488 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: and employees of dance clubs to be at least twenty 489 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: one years old. So if we do some math, we 490 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: can assume, at the bare minimum, the person responsible for 491 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: these crimes would have been eighteen years old in nineteen ninety, 492 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: likely older, I think likely older. What do you guys think? 493 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 3: I agree with Matt. We talked off Mike, and I 494 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: think both of you. But the more like so it 495 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 3: take someone with some strength and some confidence to pull 496 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 3: off these kinds of crimes, So more like maybe mid thirties. 497 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I'm getting into the psychological analysis. 498 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: The concept of these bars, these gentlemen's clubs where sex 499 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: is on display, right, the concepts of sex are there, 500 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: but taking the action of having sex or feeling connection 501 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: with somebody is not there. So in my mind, it's 502 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: somebody who knows both of these women from that scene, 503 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: like you said, but never got to really experience being 504 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: with them in that kind of connection. It was transactional, right. 505 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: That's what makes me think about the twenty dollars bill 506 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: that was left at Cheryl's scene. That's what makes me 507 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 2: think about this guy had probably had a conversation with 508 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: In my mind, Look, this is just me speculating, but 509 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 2: in my mind, this person, whoever the suspect is, had 510 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: had a conversation with the first victim or yeah, the 511 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: June twentieth victim, and talked about things like family. Maybe 512 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 2: often in those situations, when you're working at a place 513 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: like that, you don't divulge a lot of personal information, 514 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 2: but there was I think it was that victim who 515 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: had given an interview at one point with the Houston Chronicle, 516 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: mentions that sometimes she would divulge more information than she would, uh, 517 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: than she thought she was when she was just having 518 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: a conversation that felt relaxed and. 519 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: Natural, especially with a regular. 520 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: Perhaps exactly so in my head, I'm thinking of an 521 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 2: older regular that's there a lot that has a familiarity, 522 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: like maybe even a friendly familiarity with somebody, and that 523 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: would to me that's why the person was wearing something 524 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 2: on his face during that first June attack. 525 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: And this brings up Okay, so this is important thing. 526 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: I'm glad you point out the twenty dollars bill, which 527 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: seems quite purposeful, along with the golf club and the 528 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: golf balls. Yes, and if this person was eighteen, again 529 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: the bare minimum age to enter clubs like this in 530 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, then they would be at least fifty one 531 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: years old in twenty twenty three, which is still a 532 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: young enough age to be active. Now again, it sounds 533 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: like the three of us folks are fairly certain just 534 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: knowing the math I did, that's the bare minimum fifty 535 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: one it would be now, But based on what we're 536 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: thinking here, probably older. How much older, we don't know. 537 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: We simply do not know. As far as we can tell, 538 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: the criminal's DNA has not been entered into a database 539 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: capable of identifying them. That means, again, like we said earlier, 540 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: no armed services DNA collection, no law enforcement DNA collection, 541 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: no incarceration requiring DNA samples. No twenty three and me 542 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: ancestry dot com familial link like what caught the original nightstalker. 543 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: None of that. 544 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: Well, at least there's we're not aware of any profiling 545 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 2: of that sort, right, the twenty three and me style profiling. 546 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: We're not aware that any of that has been carried 547 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 2: out as of this moment. 548 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: As we record. That's correct. Yeah, And at this point 549 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 1: let's pause for a word from our sponsor, and then 550 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: when we return, will interrogate some of the most important 551 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: questions here. First off, where to go next? 552 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: And we're back, Okay, guys. I have a couple of 553 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: questions for you. My first one is, do you guys 554 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: think it's weird that the canine unit found Cheryl's body? 555 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 3: Right? 556 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: We remember this. They used the golf clue, went into 557 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: the woods, and the canine unit helped the police officers 558 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 2: discover Cheryl, but it didn't discover the body of Andy. 559 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 2: It was only like fifty yards away from there. Doesn't 560 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: it seem to y'all that maybe a canine unit trained 561 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 2: to look for stuff like that would have also found 562 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: his body that close. 563 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it certainly does seem that way. What do 564 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 3: you get now, What do you think could have been 565 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 3: the issue? 566 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: Well? 567 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 2: No, I don't know. It just feels very strange to 568 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: me as we were talking through, you know, the events 569 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 2: of that day in the case and when the bodies 570 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 2: were discovered, and the fact that there was one police 571 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: officer who passionately said, hey, no, I'll stay, I'll watch 572 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 2: this scene tonight. You remember when we talked about that. 573 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: Yes, also the same one who found the body later. 574 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, same officer that ends up finding the body only 575 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 2: fifty yards away after the canine unit had gone through 576 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: the day previous. That to me, it strikes me as strange. Agreed, Okay, well, 577 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 2: then what about that dark blue outfit that was worn 578 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 2: by the June nineteen ninety attacker. 579 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 3: Are we talking like a like a mechanics outfit, like 580 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 3: a like a like a onesie. 581 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 2: That's what I want to bring up, because there aren't 582 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: a ton of specifics, right, and it's it's there's a 583 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: lot that's been made of that on these you know, 584 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 2: subreddits and online forums that are talking about this case 585 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: where it almost always, at least it looks like it 586 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 2: almost always goes back to a security officer and potential 587 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: bouncer or somebody who's working at one of these nightclubs. 588 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: I was just wondering if if it was possible, it 589 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 2: was like a maintenance person, somebody who worked on cars. 590 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 2: You know, there are a lot of folks out there 591 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 2: who wear like a dark blue jumper style outfit. Are 592 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 2: there a lot of jobs that require something like that? 593 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: Or it would be good if you wear something like 594 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: that to the job. These are just some things that 595 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 2: I was thinking about. 596 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it makes sense too, because other than 597 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: the idea of a uniform, and other than a specific 598 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: queue or color or shade, there's not something to go on. 599 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. There's not a clear logo, 600 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: there's not clear insignia that's brought up. And this is 601 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: where we see speculation right thriving. We have looked at 602 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: a ton of people weighing in on various as you mentioned, Matt, 603 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: true crime forums, subreddits. These folks may not be professional 604 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: investigators by trade, but they do thankfully share a common goodness, 605 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: a search to see justice done. And this is why 606 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: you can run into stuff that I think speaks to 607 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, Matt. You can find photos of 608 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: the bar that Andy and Cheryl were at, Bayu Mamas, 609 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: Bayou Mamas, and in that like, there's one website you 610 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: can go to and it's got a bunch the place 611 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: is closed now, by the way, but it's got a 612 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: bunch of a bunch of candid photos like you see 613 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: in any neighborhood bar. And it seems that there's law 614 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: enforcement or security of some sort visible in the background 615 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: as some of these shots. This goes back to the 616 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: composite sketch we mentioned earlier. You know, if you look 617 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,720 Speaker 1: at our research, you can see the website is called 618 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: Rockinhuston dot com and you can pull up a specific 619 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: image where there is a guy on the right of 620 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 1: the photograph who is clearly wearing some sort of uniform. 621 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: You guys saw that one. 622 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a light blue uniform. It almost it 623 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 2: looks like a police officer. 624 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: Right, And then if we compare that to the composite 625 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: sketch from the unnamed victim in June, you know, just 626 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: pulling these up as a matter of fact, let's do this. 627 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: Let's let's share this together, all right. So here we 628 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: have we're looking at this together. Here we have this 629 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: person on the right, as you said, Matt looks definitely 630 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: to be the law. 631 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 2: Cop or something. 632 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, still wearing the uniform. And now let's remember 633 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: that face. Let's switch to the composite sketch. And it's 634 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: interesting again, because a composite sketch is not I mean, 635 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: it's better than nothing, but it depends upon on some 636 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: problems with eyewitness recollection. Do those folks look similar enough 637 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: that we have to be careful about this because we 638 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: can't based on two images on the internet. We can't 639 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: all of a sudden accuse people. 640 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, not to my I mean, there's no there's no match 641 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 2: to me. Visually right, but the concept of and maybe 642 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 2: an off duty police officer that's running security at by 643 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 2: You Mama's, where Ryl and Andy were the night that 644 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 2: they got killed, and then also thinking about other potential 645 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 2: security folks that they all worked with, because all of 646 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 2: the victims in this case had some interactions with security 647 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 2: bouncers whatever would be at nightclubs too, not just By 648 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 2: You Mama's, which was like a bar, kind of a 649 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 2: neighborhood bar place. I don't know, man, it's all very 650 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 2: weird to me. That feels like there's a close connection 651 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: to some kind of security. But I'm also I'm worried 652 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 2: that that's a red herring because of what the assaulter 653 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 2: said on the June twentieth attack, like, oh, you didn't 654 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 2: even notice that I'm an you know, what did he say? 655 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 2: Police officer or military? 656 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: Military? 657 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. 658 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: Implication, It does seem. You know, We've got three instances 659 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: of what appear to be taunting, right, the the idea 660 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: of the golf clubs and the golf club and the 661 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: golf balls, and then the the anonymous letter and then 662 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: the statements during the first crime. I will be absolutely 663 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: honest in cases like this. The mo differences imply escalation, right, 664 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: They imply the same person. We know it was the 665 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 1: same person in at least two incidents. They imply the 666 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: same person building right, starting with sexual assault, building toward 667 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: murder and perhaps committing more. It's I don't want to 668 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 1: say it's impossible, but it would be quite extraordinary and 669 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: anomalous for someone like this to commit only those two incidents. 670 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, two attacks, two months cooling off period. This person 671 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 2: either got picked up or got a lot better about 672 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 2: hiding their crimes, right, or maybe hiding their victims, which 673 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 2: could be potentially what happened. 674 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: And you can find no shortage of cases that are 675 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: tentatively speculated to be connected. At this point, the crimes 676 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: remain unsolved, and again as is with as is with 677 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: the original Nightstalker, the Golden State Killer, we are hoping 678 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: familial DNA links may shed light on the gruesome events. Now, 679 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,720 Speaker 1: as we know, in many parts of the United States, 680 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: DNA evidence from sexual assaults, the rape kits, there's a 681 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: tremendous backlog, which means that right now it's quite possible 682 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: that a kit may be analyzed and bring a DNA 683 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,280 Speaker 1: match or multiple DNA matches to this assailant. At present, 684 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: we don't know where this person is. As you pointed out, Matt, 685 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,240 Speaker 1: it is quite possible that they were apprehended for another 686 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: crime of any sort, at which case their DNA probably 687 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: would have been processed, right, I imagine. 688 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's puzzling. Right, if they were a member of 689 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 2: the military, as you said, Ben, they probably would have 690 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 2: been if they were. If law enforcement was even testing 691 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:10,399 Speaker 2: that sample against military samples, right, database not sure, I'm 692 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,399 Speaker 2: not sure if they did that. Also, do they test 693 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 2: it against police databases? Right? Could it potentially be an officer? 694 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:24,240 Speaker 2: And if it is, would the Houston Police Department allow 695 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,720 Speaker 2: that to come out? One would hope yes they would, 696 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 2: and they would seek justice. But it all depends on 697 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,760 Speaker 2: who's running the show and at what level. 698 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: At present, as we're recording, the case remains unsolved. And 699 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: in terms of implications, what this means is that we 700 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: have I think, made a solid argument that this perpetrator 701 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:56,760 Speaker 1: would have or has committed other similar incidents sexual assault, 702 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,319 Speaker 1: up to and possibly including homicide. Right, And as you 703 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: are listening today, it's important to realize that this is 704 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 1: not a unique example. Think back on the statistics we 705 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,839 Speaker 1: found that show us just how many incidents are not 706 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: reported to law enforcement for one reason or another. Right, 707 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: and this is where we pass the torch to you. 708 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: We want to hear your thoughts, folks. We want to 709 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: hear what you think may or may not be a 710 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: break in this case. We want to hear what your 711 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: thoughts are regarding possible suspects, because again, in the initial 712 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: investigation into this homicide, all of the suspects Houston PD 713 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: found were cleared based on DNA evidence. 714 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 2: You're right, and let's shout out that interview with Garland Atkinson, 715 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,759 Speaker 2: Andy's father. I believe you can find it on a 716 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 2: YouTube channel called Insight Network and Sight Network. It's an 717 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 2: interview with Linda Fell and it's about fifty minutes long, 718 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,040 Speaker 2: and it is it's harrowing to listen through the experience 719 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 2: of Andy's father, but it's just worth your time if 720 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 2: you're interested in the case. 721 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: And as always, you are the most important part of stuff. 722 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: They don't want you to know, So do please reach out, 723 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,240 Speaker 1: get in touch with us, let us know your thoughts, 724 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: let us know other similar cases that you think may 725 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: have fallen away from the mainstream news. We try to 726 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: be easy to find online. 727 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 3: We do try to do that and hope we succeed. 728 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 3: You can find this on various social media platforms, including Facebook, YouTube, 729 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,720 Speaker 3: and Twitter, where we're conspiracy stuff. On Instagram and TikTok, 730 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,240 Speaker 3: we're conspiracy stuff show. 731 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 2: But wait, there's more. Yes, If you want to use 732 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,280 Speaker 2: your voice to talk to us on a voicemail system, 733 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,879 Speaker 2: you can call one eight three three STDWYTK. You've got 734 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 2: three minutes. Please give yourself a cool nickname and let 735 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,400 Speaker 2: us know if we can use your voice and message 736 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 2: on the air. If you've got more to say then 737 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,879 Speaker 2: can fit in that three minutes. Why not instead send 738 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,280 Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email. 739 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 740 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 741 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 742 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.