1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kuric is a production of I 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Kuric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: and welcome to Next Question, where we try to understand 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: the complicated world we're living in and the crazy things 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: that are happening by asking questions and by listening to 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: people who really know what they're talking about. At times, 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: with me, everyone, let's all learn together. You look great 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: for your age. That's a compliment, right, or is it 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: for your age? You're look really good for your age. Yeah, 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: I'd say that that's a compliment. Um, it implies that 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: at your age you should look terrible. Do you think 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: ageism is one of the last acceptable isms in society 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: that it's okay to criticize older people. I feel like 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: when you get to a certain point in your life, 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: you're kind of becoming or are invisible, and so I 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: don't think it's acceptable. Okay, great, thank you so much. 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: In today's youth obsessed culture, aging seems to be viewed 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: as a negative, something to be feared, not revered, and 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: the messages were inundated with every day only reinforce that. 21 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: A new study by the a RP found only fift 22 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: of images in the media show people over the age 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: of fifty, and when they do appear, they're often at home, 24 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: sitting around with a partner or nurse instead of out 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: in the world exercising or working, and you never see 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: them using technology. Then there's the anti aging industrial complex. 27 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: Aging skin is dry. It can be embarrassing and make 28 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: you look older than you really are. Now you can 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: do something about it. Visibly plump skin in just one week, 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: bounce back and reduces wrinkles for younger looking skin. It's 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: the ultimate beauty victory. Nobody has any idea how old 32 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: you are. Why is aging portrayed as something to avoid? 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: It all costs a source of shame and embarrassment, especially 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: for women. My next question is ag ism the last 35 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: socially acceptable is um. I'm sixty two and I'm happy 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: to be the age I am most of the time. 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm out there, loud and proud doing my thing. But 38 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: all too often people become marginalized or ignored as they age. 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: Maybe that's starting to change though, After all, there are 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: almost fifty million people sixty or over in the US 41 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: and there is active as ever, today prejudice against any 42 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: group is not considered a good look. But does that 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: extend to older people? I think that unconsciously, although I 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: had no agenda when I started my doing, Accidental Icon 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: was really kind of giving the finger to this notion 46 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: that I have to be invisible. Now, lens Later is 47 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: the headline making fashion influencer own on social media as 48 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: the Accidental Icon. She was catapulted into fame five years 49 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: ago when she was mistaken as a fashion industry insider 50 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: outside an exhibit in New York City. Now in her 51 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: mid sixties, she has nearly seven hundred thousand followers on Instagram, 52 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: as well as a modeling contract. So let's talk about 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: how this happened. Because, first and foremost, I understand a 54 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: college professor at Foredom, Is that right? Yes? Although I 55 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: just retired after twenty years of teaching last semester. So 56 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: now you're embarking on this whole new career, right, a 57 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: whole new career, but really trying to think about how 58 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: to incorporate my teaching and my commitment to social welfare 59 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: into this new career. What did you teach it? Foredom? 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: Social welfare? AH, soci our law, the whole idea of 61 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: agism and how society treats older people. It's right in 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: your wheelhouse. Actually, do you think ag ism is the 63 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: last socially acceptable is um in America? I actually do, 64 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: and I actually discovered because on my Instagram, my largest 65 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: following is actually eighteen to forty and the biggest bar 66 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: five to thirty five. Of course, being an academic, I 67 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: asked a lot of questions whenever I met twenty five 68 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: year old who followed me, I would say why? And 69 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: so it turns out I've now determined the ages and 70 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: begins at When you are twenty five, you don't say, oh, 71 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be twenty six my next birthday. You say, 72 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm gonna be thirty. I'm getting old, 73 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: And then all of the stereotypes about what that means 74 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: enter into your head. And then the next thing are 75 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: all social expectations for women. And I haven't done this, 76 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: and I haven't done that, and I haven't done that. Lenn, 77 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: how old are you now? I'm sixty six? When people 78 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: ask you that, do you ever wonder if you should 79 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: lie about your age? Or how have you ever lied 80 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: about your Never? Why? Well? I think a long time ago, 81 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: I decided that in order for me to have power 82 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: in the world, that I had to understand and own 83 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: any limitation that I would ever have in my life. 84 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: And my response to limitations has been to respond to 85 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: them in a creative way. And so I think that 86 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: I get more angry than scared about these things. The 87 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: visual representation that you give to people, I think also 88 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: is incredibly empowering, just as women are empowered by seeing 89 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: images of other powerful women. The whole notion of if 90 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: you can't see it, you can't be it. Seeing you 91 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: a woman of a certain age quote unquote, who is 92 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: often marginalized or diminished or made invisible not seen, is like, hell, yeah, 93 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: she's out there, she's living her life, she looks fantastic, 94 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: she's cool, she's stylish, and you know what, God damn it. 95 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: So am I that's the response. But I want to 96 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: also make this point because I think it's really important. 97 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of young women that feel marginalized 98 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: because they don't reach this perfection that fashion kind of 99 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: puts out there, and so a lot of them are 100 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: also inspired because I think, basically, I'm just very comfortable 101 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: with who I am, and your messages you do you 102 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: basically yeah, And when young people say, oh, I'm gonna 103 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: be just like you when I get older, I always 104 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: right back to them and I say, be me. Now, 105 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: just start loving yourself and putting yourself out there if 106 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: you believe ag ism or fear of aging starts at 107 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: which is insane to me looking at that number as 108 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: a sixty two year old woman. How do we flip 109 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: the script? How do we say, hey, you can lead 110 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: a long, productive, visible life for many, many, many many years. 111 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: It's not all downhill from here. You, as important as 112 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: your presence is on social media, you alone cannot change 113 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: the narrative. So what other things need to happen when well? 114 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: I think the first thing is women my age, our 115 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: age still have a lot of internalized ages m because 116 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: of cultural conditioning, yes, and that they project onto other women. 117 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: And so I think it's very interesting to me that 118 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: again early on, the people that really promoted me, the 119 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: people that made me very public, the people that hire me, 120 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: the people that pay me, are all young. It's not 121 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: women my age. For me, I've always been inspired by 122 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: young people. And maybe that's because I'm the oldest of 123 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: six children. That started it. I'm a professor, and even 124 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: in my practice as a social worker, I worked with 125 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: young people and they always push you to keep relevant, 126 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: to keep moving. I think that in every situation, if 127 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: you look hard enough, there's a little note of power, 128 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: which is what I've found in social media. You know, 129 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: social media can be used to have negative effects for women, 130 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: and social media can have very positive effects. And so 131 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: I always asked myself when I'm going to post, what 132 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: are women going to see or think or how am 133 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: I going to make them feel when I put it's 134 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: this picture? And so I'm very aware that I have 135 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: a responsibility about this, but I also feel that this 136 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: is not a project for older people. That we need 137 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: to engage all ages into disrupting the story of aging, 138 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: and we really better do it soon, because by there's 139 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: going to be way more people over the age of 140 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: sixty then there is under the age of five. And 141 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: so I think it's not just a social justice issue, 142 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: but now it's a mental and physical health issue. And 143 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: I think in terms of getting the message out, what 144 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: I've learned from being a professor is you can't lecture 145 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: people and you can't the victim either. You can't exactly, 146 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: so I never play the victim about it. Every single phone, 147 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: Oh I put out I have this expression on my 148 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: face like I have along hair. Look at me. In 149 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: my personal life, I'm actually kind of I'm more of 150 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: a Shire person, and so that this is like your 151 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: alter ego coming out, as it is my alter ego 152 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: always came out in the classroom too. I'm a very 153 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: performative person, and when people ask me what do I 154 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: think about age, I basically say, look at my photos. 155 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: I'm performing it. I don't need to talk about it. 156 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: I am showing a different way to think about aging. 157 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing it visually instead of giving you a lecture 158 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: about oppression in this and that. And it's almost a 159 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: subconscious message in some ways, right under the guise of fashion, 160 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: you're really communicating an incredibly important message. People just may 161 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: not realize it. Right exactly. I was on a morning 162 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: as a guest not too long ago, and they posted 163 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: me talking and one of the comments was, wow, she 164 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: looks old. What would you have said to that person? 165 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: I am old, That's what I did say. Good for you. 166 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: I now think I should have said, well, i am older, 167 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: and I'm lucky I've gotten here right. I mean that's 168 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: the other side of the client. The other alternative is 169 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: you're not here anymore, right, And I think about that 170 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: because my husband died at forty two exactly, so every 171 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: year I'm able to be here is precious to me, 172 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: that's right. And I think there's so many advances now 173 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: in medicine and technology that we are going to live 174 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: a higher quality of life much longer. And so these 175 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: old stories of you're going to stop caring about what 176 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: you wear, you're gonna go play bingo, or even that 177 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: you're going to retire, right right. I have been last 178 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: with good health, and if this continues, I could do 179 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: this for another twenty years. My mother's ninety four. I 180 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: want those years to be exciting. I want to keep learning. 181 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: I think I have something to offer, and a lot 182 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: of people seem to think I do. I just want 183 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: to kiss you right now. I also had a chance 184 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: to talk to another headline grabbing fashionist of a certain age, 185 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: model Joannie Johnson, who's sixty seven and has walked the 186 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: runway for many top designers. She was even cast by 187 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: Rihanna to appear in a campaign for her new fenty 188 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: fashion line. She talked to me about representing women who 189 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: are not twenty two in an industry often fixated on youth. 190 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: I think that the opportunities have become more available to 191 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: women of a certain age. It's not just here in 192 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: the United States, but it's also happening in Europe and Asia. 193 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: Women of a certain age being taken more seriously. You know, 194 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: it's also about they are some of the top consumers, 195 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: so they do make a difference, and the responses that 196 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: the media is getting from those people of a certain 197 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: age saying finally, I see myself is also having an impact. 198 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: Len agrees that things are starting to change, and ironically 199 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: it's younger people who are paving the way. If you 200 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: look at who is asking older women to walk in 201 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: their shows, it's young designers. It is not the gucciese. 202 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: It is not the channels. It's Christian Sarriano had made 203 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: Musk Joanni has walked for a lot of independent designers. 204 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: I myself just had a fun time walking for Kate Spade. 205 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: But I think younger people are realizing the importance of 206 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: representation overall. But I think that is actually permeated through 207 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: the youth culture. The importance of diversity and inclusion and 208 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: they're happily including people who are older. That's that equation, 209 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: and I think that if I'm going to put on 210 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: my social welfare social justice had here is that one 211 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: of the things when you have privileged in a system, 212 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: which you know, we as white people have privilege in 213 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: this system, youth have privilege and fashion. And so when 214 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: you have privilege, if you want to do the right thing, 215 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: you become an ally and you use your privilege to 216 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: advance the cause of other people. And so that's what 217 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: I've felt young people have done for me in particular, 218 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: is they have been an ally in promoting older people 219 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: to be part of this diversement. You're so inspiring. What 220 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: would you tell women and even men, honestly, because I 221 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: think they're the victims of these attitudes as well, not 222 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: as much, right, but what would you tell them about 223 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: aging and about helping their outlook when it comes to 224 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: getting older. So my own experience, and I'm not gonna lie, 225 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: is that when I first started to age, I was 226 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: not happy about the impact. I actually came to this 227 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: realization it's inevitable. There's not anything you can do to 228 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: intervene in this process. And actually, if we want to 229 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: be honest, It's been happening since the day were born. 230 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think was very helpful 231 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: to me was because I was always around young people, 232 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: I was able to remain relevant when it came to 233 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: things like technology, um popular culture. Yes, I was able 234 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: to use this new kind of culture for my benefit 235 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: because I didn't reject it. And I think that's a 236 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: habit that we sometimes have as older people, because we're 237 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: comfortable in our own zones. That's right, And so in 238 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: this new media, I can still address issues that are 239 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: really important to me. I can do it in a 240 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: way that I'm not like turning people off. It's very engaging. 241 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: And so you're going direct to consumer, as they say, 242 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: exactly exactly, disintermediator, Lynn, And for me, you're not an 243 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: accidental icon. You're just an icon. And what can I say? 244 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: I think you rock, Lynn, Thank you, thank you so much. 245 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: Coming up, anti agism warrior Ashton apple White debunked some 246 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: of the biggest myths about getting older. It doesn't make 247 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: sense to go through life pretending that something that is 248 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: happening to you every day is not going to happen 249 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: to you. That fear is bad for us that fear 250 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: keeps us from investing in our own care and our 251 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: own development across our lifespan, and no discrimination is good 252 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: for society. Ashton apple White is an activist, influencer, and writer. 253 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: She's also made Fortunes forty over forty list and is 254 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: the author of This Chair Rocks, a manifesto against ages. 255 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: UM let's talk about the U Curve of happiness. Where 256 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: did that come from? How did they discover it? And 257 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: is it legitimate? If you sound like my mother in 258 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: law who would never say she said that you curve, 259 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. Um google it. It is one 260 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: of the best substantiated data sets out there. There is 261 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: a whole emerging field of social science called happiness studies, 262 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: so one of them could give you a more scholarly 263 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: answer than I. But I can tell you that I 264 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: was plenty skeptical about it, and that it has been 265 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: borne out by dozens of studies in the US and 266 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: around the world. For those of you who may not 267 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: know what Ashton is talking about. In a nutshell, the 268 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: U curve of happiness shows that people are happiest at 269 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: the beginning and end of their lives, but less so 270 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: in the middle, which could explain why so many of 271 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: us have a midlife crisis. So if we're happier as 272 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: we age, and if we're living more independently as we age, 273 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: then why is there so much ages um? To put 274 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: it succinctly, if aging is framed as a problem, we 275 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: can be persuaded to buy things to fix it. People 276 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: make money off those things. No one makes money off satisfaction. 277 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: So we have a huge lesson here. In the body 278 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: acceptance movement, you know when once you learn that the 279 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: fact that your thighs rubbed together is not the worst 280 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: problem ever to affect mankind, you stop spending money and 281 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: time on self loathing. Agism is rooted in denial of 282 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: the fact that we're going to get older. I don't 283 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: think self loathing is too strong a term to use 284 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: about seeing these natural transitions as um as awful as 285 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: your own personal problem. And in the bigger sense, agism 286 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: is a prejudice. It's stereotyping and discrimination on the basis 287 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: of age. Agism is great for companies because they can 288 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: pitt supposedly expensive older workers against younger workers, who can 289 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: be exploited because they don't have families to support yet right, 290 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: We need to join forces old and young. Don't fall 291 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: for any old versus young rhetoric. Any time you make 292 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: a judgment that someone couldn't isn't possibly old enough to 293 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: know what they're doing or to tell you what to do, 294 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: that's agism too. So why is it still socially acceptable? 295 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: You know, it seems to me sexism is being addressed, 296 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: and racism is being addressed, certainly not solved, but at 297 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: least talked about. Forget there, and this is an ism 298 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: that nobody really really talks about, do they. I do, 299 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: and I will say in a way that I don't 300 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: think is delusional, that this really is changing. I mean 301 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: ten years ago when I started on this, I was 302 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: telling people what agism is and why it's a problem. 303 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: I just criss crossed the country on a book tour, 304 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: and people were coming to me and saying, how can 305 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 1: I be pro aging anti ageism in my work, in 306 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: my program, in my built environment. We are moving from 307 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: theory to practice. What has propelled that change? I'm not sure. 308 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's the baby boom. I am dead center born 309 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: in ninety two, you know, finally acknowledging it's true that 310 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: we are aging differently than our parents did, and our 311 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: grandparents certainly. But guess what, I'm still going to get old. 312 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: There's also a lot of denial on the part of 313 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 1: baby Boom. We're different, We're exceptional. Sixty is the new thirty. 314 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: That kind of sixty is the new six. The it 315 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 1: is different from what sixty used to be. But every 316 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: time we aspire to be younger, we deny all the 317 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: richness that our years have brought us, all that the 318 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: aches and pains too. Again, it's double edged. I once 319 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: wrote a really cranky blog post. If aging is so awful, 320 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: how come no one actually wants to be any younger? 321 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: People's faces do just what yours just did. That there's 322 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: like this moment of wait that sounds great, Oh wait, 323 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: because you don't get to take your present day consciousness 324 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: back with you. Well, I'd still want to do it. 325 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: You'd erase the clock, you'd go back to being who 326 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: you are at seventeen or whatever. Age. Well, how about 327 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: thirty five? But you don't get anything that you've learned 328 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: or done or been since you were thirty five. You 329 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: have to read about forty have about forty You tell me, no, 330 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: I'm just going to have my children would still be alive, 331 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: and I'd look a hell of a lot better. Is 332 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: that wrong? There is no right or wrong. We each 333 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: have to do this in our own way. You know. 334 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: I have had women come up and say, look, I've 335 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: had botox, I have plastic surgery. Whatever. If I didn't 336 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: dye my hair, I would lose my job. I wish 337 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: I would thought that she was exaggerating. I'm sure she's 338 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: not no judgment around any of this, But the habit 339 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: of looking in the mirror and going what the hell happened, 340 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: which we all do, is deeply damaging because if you 341 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: think about all the things that did happen and how 342 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: fantastic they were, just as a thought experiment, why shouldn't 343 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: we look in the mirror and go cut what an 344 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: amazing life I've had, rather than g I wish I 345 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: could afford a facelift. That's swimming upstream against all these 346 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: societal messages. So how do you change society? Is it 347 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: one person at a time telling herself that she's more 348 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: than or can we collectively do anything about this? Both 349 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: and which, of course, you know, the consciousness raising is 350 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: the tool that catalyzed the women's movement, and it's sort 351 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: of an old fashioned word, but I think it's still powerful. 352 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: What happened is that women came together and compared notes 353 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 1: and realize that what they had been thinking of as 354 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: personal problems. You know, their children weren't blond enough, their 355 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: boops weren't big enough, their boss was patting them on 356 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: the butt, they couldn't even get a job. We're not 357 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: personal problems. They were widely shared political problems that required 358 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: collective action. And that is exactly what we need to 359 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: do with aging. It is the work of a lifetime. 360 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: It is a collective task. But that's why I think 361 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: if I have one ask, I have a lot of them. 362 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: But it would be for women to come together in 363 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: consciousness raising groups. Let's talk about the implicit bias we 364 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: all have and how agism really creeps into our conversation 365 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: in a way that we don't even realize. I wouldn't 366 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: even say it creeps in. It's they're sitting on the sofa. 367 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: One good sort of little litmus test for yourself is 368 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: to think about how you use the words old and young. 369 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: You know, I hear people say I don't feel old. 370 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: What they really mean is I don't feel invisible. I 371 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: don't feel useless, I don't feel incompetent. We can feel 372 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: those things at any age. Right, That's how I felt 373 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: at thirteen, for sure. Right. But or I feel young 374 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: means I feel energetic, I feel sexy, I feel you know, powerful. 375 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: You can feel those things at any age. So try 376 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: and step back from using old as placeholder for in 377 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: certain decrepit awful thing, and young as the positive thing, 378 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: because those are not attributes that are tied to our age. 379 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: Not for a minute, let are other examples a senior moment. 380 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Senior moment is bad, of course, because any prophecy about 381 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: decline cognitive in particular is terrifying. It's not that our 382 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: fears of Alzheimer's are not, you know, legitimate. It's a 383 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: terrifying disease. But no one knows that rates of Alzheimer's 384 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: are declining fast, and that the odds of you or 385 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: I or anyone listening to this of getting Alzheimer's have 386 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: gotten lower and lower, and that people are being diagnosed 387 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: at later ages. What about the term for your age, 388 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: You have some definite views on that. You look great 389 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: for your age. Thank you. First of all, speaking of habits, 390 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: try and bite that thank you before it gets out 391 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: of your mouth. It's really hard not to feel complimented. 392 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: But when you accept that compliment, it's ages in the 393 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: most fundamental way, because it's reinforcing the idea that younger 394 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: is better. And that's really the heart of the beast. Right, 395 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: Younger is sometimes better, older sometimes better. Right, But this 396 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: idea that old is bad and young is good. You 397 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: can also only accept the compliment at the expense of 398 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: everyone else your age who doesn't look quite as good 399 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: as you. And that's not a recipe for social change 400 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: or solidarity, right, And the real question is why someone 401 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: you know bringing up age at all. I do have 402 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: the one good, snappy answer for you look good for 403 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: you was gonna say for twelve years, and I came 404 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: up with one. You say, non snarkily, you look good 405 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: for your age too, and just let it sit there 406 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: because the person meant it as a compliment. But then 407 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: they What you want to do is force. I know 408 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: force is a strong word, but if we don't, you know, 409 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: we don't, it takes a little jolt to get us 410 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: out of our group. Right, is to force that moment 411 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: of reflection, Gee, why didn't that feel like a compliment? 412 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: And the reason it didn't is because it's embarrassing to 413 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: be called out as older. Until we quit being embarrassed 414 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: about it, and I can tell that you're over it, 415 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: and doesn't it feel better. That's a great idea. I'm 416 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: going to try that. When it comes to language. My 417 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: pet peeve is when people used to say about my 418 00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: mom or dad they're so cute. I really found it 419 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: offensive because they were exceptional people. My dad especially was brilliant, 420 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: my mom incredibly creative and clever and funny, and this 421 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 1: cute thing was so diminishing of everything about them. And 422 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: I feel like too often people infantilize older people, and 423 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: it's really bugs the ship out of me. I'm with you. 424 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: There's a fantastic researcher at Yale called Becca Levi who 425 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: coined a term for this elder speak, and it is 426 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: the honey, sweetie deery thing. It's delegitimizing of someone as 427 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: a whole person and someone who has a rich history. 428 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: I think my friends meant it as a compliment, but 429 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: I always bristled at it. A really good rule of 430 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: thumb is don't call someone something you wouldn't want to 431 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: be called yourself. If you wouldn't want to have someone 432 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: call you cute them. Think about whether you're using it 433 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: to someone else. Babies are cute, old people are not cute, 434 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: because you're absolutely right. Is condescending and it turns the 435 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: clock back on all their years and their richness and 436 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: infantalizes them. Becca Levy's research shows that even people with 437 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: advanced dementia react badly to being condescended to. Two elder speak. 438 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: It's not good for us. No one wants to be 439 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: condescended to at any age. How does this play out 440 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: in the workplace, Ashton? Because obviously aged discrimination for someone 441 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: in his or her job is a nightmare and devastating. 442 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: It is devastating. And you could argue a little bit 443 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: that it's really hard for men because the workplace is 444 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: often the first place white men encounter discrimination and a 445 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: huge part of their sense of identity. Women often have 446 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: sort of a larger circle of friends and other sources 447 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: of identity. But um, that's the only thing I'll say 448 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: in defense of white men. You don't hate white men, 449 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: do you know? But I'm not wasting any energy looking 450 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: out for them because they're doing really good job of 451 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: looking out for themselves. Women face the double whammy of 452 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 1: agism and sexism, and women of color face the triple 453 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: whammy of course of agism and sexism and racism. I 454 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: mean that is what intersectionality means, is that all these 455 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: oppressions compound and reinforce each other, add disability to the mix, 456 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: and people, you know, face huge obstacles to representation, let 457 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: alone you know, employment, Let alone employment for a decent wage, 458 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: let alone employment for a wage that other people get, 459 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: and so on. We are penalized. I know this is 460 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: news to you for our appearance. Economists have a charming 461 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: name for this, the attractiveness penalty. Women stop getting promoted 462 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: to managerial positions at thirty four in United States, right 463 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: because we might think about having children, and you all, 464 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: we all know that your uterus and your brain cannot 465 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: function at the same time. And of course, when you 466 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: don't get promoted early on, all these things compound. Women 467 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: make less, we save less, we're penalized time out of 468 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: the workforce, typically spent on unpaid caregiving. If we have pensions, 469 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: therefore less money. So women face this huge compounded disadvantage. 470 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: But it is the thing about being in your childbearing years, 471 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: is that really ageism? Or you're never the right. Oh, 472 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: I think it's agism and sexism. What does my reproductive 473 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: status have to do with the fact that I am 474 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: joining forces with a bunch of older women who might 475 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: or might not be post menopause. Men's reproductive status is 476 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: never called out. Let's talk about the World Health Organization 477 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: and the study that they're conducting. Now, I'm glad you 478 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: brought that up, because there is tons of fascinating research 479 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: that shows that attitudes towards aging affect how our minds 480 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: and bodies function at the cellular level. If you live 481 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: in this fear based zone where you only read the 482 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: bad news because that's most of what's accessible, you have 483 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: an unduly misinformed negative view of aging. If you, on 484 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: the other hand, have a more positive, fact based attitude, 485 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: people live longer an average of seven and a half years, longer, 486 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: walk faster, heal quicker even from severe disability. And the 487 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: latest study out of Yale I'm not picking you know, 488 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: obscure science here shows that people with more positive attitudes 489 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: towards aging are less likely to develop dementia even if 490 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: they have the gene that predisposes them to the disease. 491 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: So obviously this is a fantastic argument for a anti 492 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: agism campaign as a public health initiative. Up neet some 493 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: real talk from a woman who tells it to us straight. 494 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: We don't just spot to be younger people, they're spot 495 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: to be us because quite frankly, you know, at our age, 496 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: we don't give a ship. We'll have more on that 497 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: right after this. Cindy Gallup is one of the most 498 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: outspoken and influential women in the world of advertising, a 499 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: male dominated, youth obsessed industry if there ever was one. 500 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: I've always talked about and tried to do things to 501 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: help change, you know, the lack of diversity across gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality, disability, 502 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: and age. And so this has just been one part 503 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: of what I feel very strong about. So what I 504 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: would like to like to drive change and advertising is 505 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: very interesting area because the target demographics right for many 506 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: of these companies and many of these products has forever 507 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: been eighteen to thirty four, right at least in my 508 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: business and television, or eighteen to fifty four if you 509 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: really want to stretch it. But after fifty four they 510 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: don't really care. And I'm curious, is that an outdated 511 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: and equated model in your view, absolute bloody lutely, and 512 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: it's part of a much bigger problem which Ashton has 513 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: quite rightly highlighted, which is a patriarchy. So at the 514 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: top of my industry, as at the top of your industry, 515 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: and everyone instay is a close loop of white guys 516 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: talking to white guys by the white guys. What that 517 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: means in advertising is that the primary purchase of everything 518 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: and the primary influence of everything is female. You know, 519 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: that's that's the majority audience of advertising. Of consumer goods 520 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: are bought by when But but the advertising industry is 521 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: dominated by men. So we are constantly being sold to 522 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: ourselves through the male gaze. And equally, my industry is 523 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: extraordinarily agrees. Tina Brown and I were talking recently and 524 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: we were saying, why is this obsession still so prominent, 525 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: Because we were saying that women, when their children get 526 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: older and they're out of the house, they have more 527 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: disposable income, they have more freedom to travel, to spend it, 528 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: to do things, and yet they're still kind of invisible. 529 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: The thing about that is everything we're talking about. The 530 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: solution is enormously simple. If you want to sell a 531 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: ton of product to older people in a way that 532 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: will make older people go, oh my god, let me 533 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: get my wallet out and give you all my money. 534 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: Have older people make the ads and actually have older 535 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: people create the ads, approve the ads, produce the ads, 536 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: and direct the ads. If you had older people in 537 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: the industry operating at every point along the way, we 538 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: would see much better advertising and for normally aspirational depictions 539 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: of ourselves. Because the enormous irony is I bang on 540 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: a lot about the Evian Water campaign, which for many 541 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: years has run the tagline live young and assumes that's 542 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: what we all want to do. I created the hashtag 543 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: live Older because we are the ones living the aspirational lifestyle. 544 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: We have our own sense of values, we have our 545 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: own personal tastes. We dress the way we want, we 546 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: live the way we want. If we're lucky, we have 547 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: money that means we can travel, we have more freedom. 548 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: These are all things that younger people are aspire to, 549 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: but we do not see our lifestyle represented as aspirational 550 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: that way in advertising or anywhere in public culture. To 551 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: play devil's advocate, though, isn't brand loyalty established kind of 552 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: early on? For example, I decided I like Colgate toothpaste 553 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: when I was twenty five, and I still buy Colgate toothpaste. 554 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: So is there a reason that demographic is targeted other 555 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: than they just don't like old people and the it's 556 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: the patriarchy making the decisions. It's a knee jerk, unthinking 557 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: reaction for every brand that goes our target a millennials, 558 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: you know. And if I was having this conversation with 559 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: a credit director in my industry who said that, his 560 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: team said to him and actually, you know, I won't 561 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: identify him, but the brand was a very mass market, 562 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: very common household product, and his team said to him, 563 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: so we're going to target this millennials. He went why why? 564 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: There was no reason for this politic product to be 565 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: targeted to young people more than any other set of 566 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: the population. So no, it really is. It's a knee 567 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: jerk reaction, and it's a very wrong headed assumption also 568 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: that if you target your advertising at young people, they 569 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: will drive the attitudes behave of older people because we 570 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: all are spart to be like them, and that is 571 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: absolutely not the case. Ashton and Sandy both think when 572 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: it comes to your age, you should own it baby. 573 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: They say, for women in general, if you can't see it, 574 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: you can't be it. Well, the same for women once 575 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: they become older, right and am I allowed yous? Are 576 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: it older now very neurotic? No? No, absolutely, But but 577 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: but you know, I have this thing, you know, I 578 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: live here in Manhattan, and I walk the streets of 579 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: Manhattan and I actively look at the older people in 580 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: the streets. I look at the older women that I 581 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: passed by, and I know every single one of those 582 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: older women I see on the streets of Manhattan has 583 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: had an extraordinary life, you know, And she's had an 584 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: extraordinary life because I have some idea as a woman 585 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: of what she's been through. What people just smiths rocketing 586 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: through the streets of New York as a little old lady. 587 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: There is a truly extraordinary saga of strength and desperation 588 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: and difficulties and achievement and fit. There's an amazing story 589 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: behind that person. And we are taught as a society 590 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: to look at older women and despise them, to just 591 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: instantly dismiss them despises too strongle I mean, no, I'm 592 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: using that word in a patriarchal sense, because that is 593 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: what a lot of men do consciously and unconsciously as well. 594 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: I regard myself that I say this regularly, as you know, 595 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: a proudly visible member of the most invisible segment of 596 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: our society, which is older women. And so I want 597 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: to role model in my life, you know, I want 598 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: to completely counter the way society thinks an older one 599 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: should look like, be like, talk like, dress like, work like, 600 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: and date like. And I want all of us to 601 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: do that. We can all take actions every single day 602 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: to change this. Okay, sign me up like what and 603 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: up there is what is going to drive the change. 604 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: It's not going to come from consumer culture. It's not 605 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: going to come from advertising, it's not going to come 606 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: from tech. All those fields have an enormous critical role 607 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: to play. But people's attitudes and incremental change is what 608 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: drives culture change, and that's what is going to change 609 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: the role of So change happens from the bottom up, 610 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: not the top down microactions. So here's the most important one. 611 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: I coined the hashtag say your age. Okay, and I 612 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: ask every woman, and by the way, I asked men too. 613 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: But but we are talking about women here because ages 614 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: that affects us much more to say say her age, 615 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: Because because I've I've been shouting my age from the 616 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: rooftops for like like, for I'm fifty nine. And the 617 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: thing is that, my philosopher here is the opposite of 618 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: what people normally say to count ages, and which is, oh, 619 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: age is just a number. No, it's not. Your age 620 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: is a very special number, because your age is the 621 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: sum total of you. I give an interview um last 622 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: year to a German newspaper and the editor on the 623 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: phone call said to me at the anda, now, Cindy, 624 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: you know I have to apologize in it that you know, 625 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry about what I now have to ask you. 626 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 1: But you know it is a requirement that we ask everybody. 627 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, oh my god, I mean, what deeply 628 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: personal thing is you know? And he went, you know, 629 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: so I'm so sorry how old you? And I just 630 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: I had hysterics. I burst out laughing and I said, 631 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm fifty ages, as you know, and I couldn't care less. 632 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: And so, you know, say your age count anybody goes, 633 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: oh ho ho, I won't ask how old you are 634 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: by telling them, and then very importantly take that valuation 635 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: of you, as in your age into the workplace. And 636 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: I recommend to women take it into job interviews, So 637 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: do not do that thing, or you know, shedding a 638 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: few years on LinkedIn from your resume, own your entire 639 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: career to date and say say your age. I am 640 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: fifty nine and I am incredibly value because I have 641 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: fifty nine years worth off. You know what that age 642 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: means is I can do this. I have expertise in this. 643 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: I know some cosmetic companies have stopped using the term 644 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: age defining, and that's seen as some sign of progress. 645 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: Do you think it is? And what else do you 646 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: think needs to be done individually and collectively? Um? Everything? Now? 647 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: I know Allure magazine was the first to ban the 648 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: term anti aging from its pages, which was great. The 649 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: next sentence in the announcement linked to an adver retin 650 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: a I noticed that also, But you know, we'll take it. 651 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: Culture change is slow and it's incremental. But you know, 652 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: aging is not just something annoying all people do or parents. 653 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: It is a process that we embark upon the day 654 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: we're born. Aging is living. There's a great um British 655 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: writer named and Cartfood told Brian Lair on NPR, you 656 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: can no more be anti aging than anti breathing. So 657 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: I think thinking about how we just think about the 658 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: term aging as a substitute for you know bad thing. 659 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: Everyone is aging, not just parents and celebrities. It is terrible. 660 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: When you see the internet features, you won't believe what 661 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 1: they look like. Now. I think a very fundamental concept 662 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: here is the idea of age shame. Why on earth 663 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: should waking up a day older be a source of 664 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: shame when it is something every person does. When we 665 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: scrub our resumes for early accomplishments, we reinforce age shame 666 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: when we die our hair just to cover the gray, 667 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: and millions and millions of people do. I totally understand 668 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: and respect why no judgment, But these behaviors are not 669 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,479 Speaker 1: good for us because they're rooted in shame about something 670 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: that shouldn't be shameful, and they give a pass to 671 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: the discrimination that makes those behaviors necessary. If women worked right, 672 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: and how much money that would add to the economy, 673 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: I think nobody really talks about how if people older 674 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: people were gainfully employed, how much that would add to 675 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: the persistent myth that older people are drag on the economy. 676 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: There's no truth to it. You're making a point I 677 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: make all the time, because you know, when when I 678 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: talk about championing diversity as a whole and ages them 679 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: within that as one dimension of it, I make the 680 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: point that I am not doing this because it's the 681 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: right thing to do. I'm doing this because I'm a 682 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 1: hard head of pragmatic businesswoman. And oh my god, the 683 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: impact on the American economy when we eradicate agism in 684 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: the workplace, honestly, precisely your point. The extraordinary pool of talent, 685 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: the resources, the point I made earlier, the time and 686 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: cost efficiency of skills and expertise that have been honed 687 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: over decades, brought to bear on the workplace and the 688 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: workload in any industry would turbo charge every single business 689 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: towards a far more lucrative future, and it would power 690 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: the American economy into a whole new era. Absent bloody 691 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: lutely so, older workers make very good economic and business absolutely, 692 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: and I mean there was a Wild Street Journal piece 693 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: about Europe making use of older workers, but it paired it. 694 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 1: The headline was often at the spence of younger workers. 695 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: That is a myth. It is called the fallacy of 696 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: the lump of labor. It is another way that we 697 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: are pitted against each other. In this case old versus young, 698 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: when it's position is scarcity, it makes people nervous and 699 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: they read the story right, but it is false. It 700 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: is alarmist. Same with this, you know metaphor for population 701 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: aging of the gray tsunami. The baby boom is the 702 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,280 Speaker 1: best studied demographic phenomenon in history. It's not some title 703 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: wave that's sneaking up the Hudson when we weren't looking. 704 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: You don't think they're going to cost a lot of 705 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: money as they age? They you mean we yeah, yeah, 706 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: that's why that one I think. I think, first of all, 707 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: spending on older people is often portrayed as an expense. 708 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: It is an investment. This talk about older people, you know, 709 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: sucking more out of the system. The system was developed 710 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: to enable people with disabilities or who have retired to 711 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: remain self sufficient. That's what the system was designed for. Yes, 712 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: there will be costs, but there are also opportunities. Society 713 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: of longer lives is going to require massive investment in 714 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: infrastructure and in healthcare. Those are real costs, and so 715 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,960 Speaker 1: embrace us in the workforce and we will make you 716 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: the ton of money that thaw outweighs those costs, right, 717 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: and you know, address agism in healthcare so that so 718 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: that older people receive better care and and receive the 719 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: care that we need. We are facing um an enormously 720 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 1: troubled time on the planet. Leaders and and politicians and 721 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: corporate leaders are already exploiting deep divisions of race and 722 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: class and gender. We cannot afford to add age to 723 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: the mix. That's what ages M does, pits old against young. 724 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 1: It is imperative that we overturn this narrative that to 725 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: ages to fail, that older and younger people don't have 726 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: anything in common. I think it's enormously important to stackles 727 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: agism because the impact on the American economy of embracing 728 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:08,320 Speaker 1: and leveraging the enormous potential in the older workforce would 729 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: dramatically power us to a very different financial scenario, which 730 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: would give everybody young and older like many more opportunities, 731 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: better ways of living and better ways of aging, and 732 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: ultimately just make all of us a great deal happier. 733 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: Just spending some time with Lynn, Joannie Ashton, and Cindy 734 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,399 Speaker 1: made me realize that even I have misconceptions about this 735 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: particular demographic, then I'm a part of Maybe agism will 736 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: stop being the last socially acceptable is um if we 737 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: stop shaming people because of it, just as our culture 738 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 1: has become less tolerant of body shaming. After all, aging 739 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: crosses all racial, gender, and socioeconomic lines, and it will 740 00:45:54,640 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: happen to all of us one day if we're lucky. 741 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and until we meet again, 742 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: make sure to follow me on Instagram. I'm at Katie 743 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,479 Speaker 1: Curik and sign up for my daily newsletter is called 744 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,959 Speaker 1: wake Up Call, and you can do that by going 745 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com. Next Question with Katie Couric 746 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curreic Media. 747 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Katie Kuric, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Julie Douglas, 748 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: and Tyler Klang. Our show producers are Bethan Mcalouso and 749 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate producers 750 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: are Emily Pinto and Derrek Clemens. Editing by Dylan Fagan, 751 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,240 Speaker 1: Derrek Clements, and Lowell Berlante. Our researcher is Barbara Keene. 752 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,359 Speaker 1: For more information on today's episode, go to Katie Currek 753 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 1: dot com and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at 754 00:46:54,080 --> 00:47:03,399 Speaker 1: Katie currec. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit 755 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to 756 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.