WEBVTT - How to Make Your Habits Stick

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever outcomes you have or lifestyle you're enjoying right now,

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<v Speaker 2>it's kind of a byproduct of the habits you've been running,

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<v Speaker 2>and so if you want the outcome to change, it's

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<v Speaker 2>actually the habits that need to change.

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<v Speaker 1>Writer James Clear has helped millions of people achieve their

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<v Speaker 1>big goals through small shifts and behavior, and he believes

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<v Speaker 1>that our habits can have a powerful impact on how

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<v Speaker 1>we see ourselves.

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<v Speaker 2>True behavior change is really identity change. Every action you

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<v Speaker 2>take is a vote for the type of person you

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<v Speaker 2>wish to become. So your habits are how you embody

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<v Speaker 2>a particular identity.

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<v Speaker 1>On today's epsiodisode, a tactical guide for actually reaching our goals.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm maya shucker and this is a slight change of plans,

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<v Speaker 1>a show about who we are and who we become

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<v Speaker 1>in the face of a big change. If you're like me,

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<v Speaker 1>you often set ambvicious goals like wanting to meditate or

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<v Speaker 1>to cook more at home, but you struggle with execution,

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<v Speaker 1>like sure, I want to read more in the evening,

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<v Speaker 1>but when I sit down after work, Instagram is just

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<v Speaker 1>way more appealing. So this is where James comes in.

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<v Speaker 1>He believes that tiny changes in our habits are the

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<v Speaker 1>key to reaching our long term goals. His best selling book,

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<v Speaker 1>Atomic Habits distills the strongest insights from academic research, including

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<v Speaker 1>how to break bad habits and form good ones, and

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<v Speaker 1>he teaches us how to design our habits so they

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<v Speaker 1>actually stick. We started our conversation with the basics, So

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<v Speaker 1>let's start off with what a habit is. How do

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<v Speaker 1>you define habits?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if you talk to an academic or researcher, they're

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<v Speaker 2>probably going to say, hey, technically, a habit is a

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<v Speaker 2>behavior that's more or less automatic or mindless, So like

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<v Speaker 2>brushing your teeth, or tying your shoes, or unplugging the

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<v Speaker 2>toaster after each use, like things that you don't even

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<v Speaker 2>really think about, you know, usually it's thirty seconds or

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<v Speaker 2>last two minutes or lastening. They're very quick, automatic routines.

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<v Speaker 2>But there is this interesting thing about habits, which is

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<v Speaker 2>that's not usually the way we talk about it culturally.

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<v Speaker 2>Like if I were to ask you, hey, what are

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<v Speaker 2>some habits you're trying to build, You're probably not going

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<v Speaker 2>to tell me something mindless and automatic. You're probably going

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<v Speaker 2>to say, I want to get in the habit of

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<v Speaker 2>writing every day, or I want to get in the

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<v Speaker 2>habit of going to the gym four days a week.

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<v Speaker 2>And I know what you mean when you say that,

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<v Speaker 2>you mean I want it to be this regular practice,

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<v Speaker 2>this ritual that I repeat consistently. But that stuffs pretty effort.

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<v Speaker 2>Puone requires concentration and careful thought, like especially writing. You

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<v Speaker 2>know it's ever going to be mindless, the way that

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<v Speaker 2>brushing your teeth might be.

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<v Speaker 1>Why are good habits so hard to pick up and

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<v Speaker 1>bad habits so hard to kick?

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<v Speaker 2>What is the difference between a good habit of bad habit? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>most behaviors produce multiple outcomes across time, So broadly speaking,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say that a behavior has an immediate outcome and

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<v Speaker 2>an ultimate outcome, like kind of the canonical example of

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<v Speaker 2>a bad habit is smoking a cigarette. Well, the immediate

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<v Speaker 2>outcome of smoking a cigarette might be that you reduce stress,

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<v Speaker 2>or that you get to connect with a coworker outside

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<v Speaker 2>the office, or many other things that we often would

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<v Speaker 2>say serve you in some way or serve some need

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<v Speaker 2>that you might have. It's only the ultimate outcome of

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<v Speaker 2>continuing to smoke for ten or twenty years or whatever

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<v Speaker 2>that is negative. Good habits are often the reverse, Like

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<v Speaker 2>the immediate outcome of going to the gym for the

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<v Speaker 2>first week is often unfavorable. Your body's sore, you feel

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<v Speaker 2>foolish and stupid, You're worried that people are judging you

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<v Speaker 2>or think you're doing the exercises wrong. It's only the

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<v Speaker 2>ultimate outcome of sticking to a good habit for a

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<v Speaker 2>year or two or three that you get the results

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<v Speaker 2>that you want. And so I think my summary of

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<v Speaker 2>what is a good habit and what is a bad

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<v Speaker 2>habit is that the cost of your good habits is

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<v Speaker 2>in the present, the cost of your bad habits is

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<v Speaker 2>in the future.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I studied during my POSTOC

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<v Speaker 1>in cognitive neuroscience is temporal discounting. And I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's lots of reasons why it's really hard to invest

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<v Speaker 1>in good habits, But in addition to the rewards of

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<v Speaker 1>the good habits not being salient in the moment, we

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<v Speaker 1>also do discount the value of future rewards in a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty significant way. So even if we're told intellectually, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>this thing is going to pay off, our brains are

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<v Speaker 1>wired it's such that we just don't assign the same

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<v Speaker 1>value to those future rewards versus the present day ones.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, But

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<v Speaker 2>my understanding of it is that for most of human

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<v Speaker 2>history we evolved in what was roughly an immediate return environment.

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<v Speaker 2>So your ancestors saw a storm on the horizon, they

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<v Speaker 2>take shelter. Now that gives them in a media benefit.

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<v Speaker 2>They need a meal, they forage for berries in the bush,

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<v Speaker 2>that gives them an immediate benefit. And so our paleolithic

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<v Speaker 2>prehistoric brains are largely the hardware that is the same

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<v Speaker 2>as it has been for the last fifty thousand years.

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<v Speaker 2>Grew up in an environment like that, or we're evolved

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<v Speaker 2>in an environment like that, and then now in modern

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<v Speaker 2>society we live, in many ways in a delayed return environment.

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<v Speaker 2>You go to work now so you can get paid

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<v Speaker 2>in two weeks. You study now so you can graduate

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<v Speaker 2>in four years. You save for retirement now so that

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<v Speaker 2>you can retire in two decades, and so a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the behaviors, a lot of the habits we want

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<v Speaker 2>to build, have extreme temporal discounting going on. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>even just like a day or two from now, it's

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<v Speaker 2>many years from now, and we're not wired to work

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<v Speaker 2>that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you say more about why it's important that we're

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<v Speaker 1>so intentional about how we build our habits.

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<v Speaker 2>So first reason is your brain is building habits all

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<v Speaker 2>the time, whether you think about it or not. So

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<v Speaker 2>if you're going to be creating habits anyway, it benefits

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<v Speaker 2>you to understand and what the process is and how

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<v Speaker 2>it works so that you can design it to your

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<v Speaker 2>benefit rather than to your detriment. I think a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people feel like they're the victim of their habits.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh I did that, I didn't even realize that, or oh,

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<v Speaker 2>my habits are kind of happening to me. If you

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<v Speaker 2>understand how it works, now you don't have to be

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<v Speaker 2>the victim of your habits. You can be the architect

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<v Speaker 2>of them. And as far as I can tell, you

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<v Speaker 2>can only effectively direct your attention toward one thing at

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<v Speaker 2>a time. The more that you can figure out how

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<v Speaker 2>to offload stuff and not have to think about it,

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<v Speaker 2>the more that you kind of have operations going on

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<v Speaker 2>automatically in the background, and you can now direct your

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<v Speaker 2>attention towards something else. If you had to think carefully

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<v Speaker 2>about how to tie your shoes every time you did it,

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<v Speaker 2>or how to brush your teeth every time you did it,

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<v Speaker 2>or where the bread is and the pantry every time

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<v Speaker 2>you grabbed for it. I mean, an individual day would

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<v Speaker 2>become very cumbersome.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way. Given my husband, Jimmy, I actually am

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<v Speaker 1>searching for where the bread is every day in the country.

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<v Speaker 2>Jimmy, if you're listening to this, stop moving to bread.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, just keep it in one damn place.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, But yeah, you get that's the idea, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like your brain wants to do that so that you

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<v Speaker 2>can more smoothly get through the day and focus on

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<v Speaker 2>some of the other demands of life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. You talk about the difference in your book between

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<v Speaker 1>goals and systems. What do you mean by this?

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<v Speaker 2>So your goal is your desired outcome, the target, the

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<v Speaker 2>thing you're shooting for. Your system is the collection of

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<v Speaker 2>habits that you follow each day. So almost by definition,

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<v Speaker 2>your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your current results.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever outcomes you have or lifestyle you're enjoying or not

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<v Speaker 2>enjoying right now, it's kind of a byproduct of the

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<v Speaker 2>habits you've been running or the system you've been following

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<v Speaker 2>for the last six months, year, two years. And so

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<v Speaker 2>if you want the outcome to change, it's actually the

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<v Speaker 2>habits that mean to change. And this doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 2>goals are useless, like I actually think goals are really

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<v Speaker 2>helpful for setting a sense of direction, gaining clarity, figuring

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<v Speaker 2>out what to optimize for. And I am someone who's

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<v Speaker 2>very goal oriented, so in a lot of ways, I

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<v Speaker 2>say all this stuff as a reminder to myself to

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<v Speaker 2>try to focus a little bit more on the habits

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<v Speaker 2>and the system and a little bit less on the

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<v Speaker 2>outcome and the goal.

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<v Speaker 1>I also think that when we engage with the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of system that we want to build around us to

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<v Speaker 1>achieve the goal, it actually has a nice sobering effect

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<v Speaker 1>on the goal itself. So in a bubble, it's really

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<v Speaker 1>easy to think audaciously, like incredibly ambitiously about the goal

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<v Speaker 1>you're trying to achieve. But when you pressure test it

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<v Speaker 1>in the context of a system, all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 1>the practical realities of how it is you're actually going

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<v Speaker 1>to achieve that goal come into the light, and you

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<v Speaker 1>might think to yourself, hmm, I might need a slightly

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<v Speaker 1>more modest goal at least this time around. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>not to say don't be ambitious, but that pressure testing

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<v Speaker 1>is actually critical so that you don't feel that you're

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<v Speaker 1>constantly failing or just set moonshots that you have no

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<v Speaker 1>chance of reaching when it comes to day to day reality.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually think it's a beautiful point. It's really wise

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<v Speaker 2>of you to bring it up. A lot of the time,

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<v Speaker 2>when I'm thinking about building my business, the first question

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<v Speaker 2>that I feel like you should ask is how do

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<v Speaker 2>I want to spend my days? And then inside of

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<v Speaker 2>that you can ask questions like how could I grow

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<v Speaker 2>the business more effectively, how can we reach more people?

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<v Speaker 2>How can we make a bigger impact. But a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of entrepreneurs start by asking how can we make the

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<v Speaker 2>most money possible? And I feel like that's a very

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<v Speaker 2>bad way to start, because you end up with a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of options that are not the way that you

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<v Speaker 2>want to live your days. And so to your point

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<v Speaker 2>about dreaming ambitiously, people will often come up with goals

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<v Speaker 2>that they have for themselves, but then when they have

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<v Speaker 2>to start implementing that or thinking about the system, they realize, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't how I want to spend my time. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this isn't what I want to be doing.

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<v Speaker 2>And what you find is that a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>people you're jealous of, or the results that you're envious of,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the things that you kind of wish. Oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what if I had what they had. You

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to do what is required. You're not even

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<v Speaker 2>interested in living that life. You know, there are many

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<v Speaker 2>things like sometimes I I'll talk to some of my

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<v Speaker 2>entrepreneur friends and just say something like, whatever the optimal

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<v Speaker 2>way is to make money, you probably don't even want

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<v Speaker 2>to do that. Like, you probably don't even want to

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<v Speaker 2>make the most money because it's a lifestyle. It's completely

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<v Speaker 2>unrelated to how you want to be spending your time,

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<v Speaker 2>and you could transfer that into pretty much any domain

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<v Speaker 2>in life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I really like that. And I think, look,

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<v Speaker 1>some of us have the luxury of thinking how do

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<v Speaker 1>I want to spend my days? Others of us don't

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<v Speaker 1>have that luxury, and we just have so many demands

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<v Speaker 1>on our time and our resources. And so the reason

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<v Speaker 1>why it's good to engage with systems at the outset

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<v Speaker 1>of goal pursuit is that there will just be natural

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<v Speaker 1>constraints and limitations on imagine single mom of three working

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<v Speaker 1>two shifts to make ends meet. They need to set

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<v Speaker 1>reasonable goals given the demands on their time. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>useful no matter what your starting point is. So you've

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<v Speaker 1>convinced us that systems are important. I mean, they're really

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<v Speaker 1>the driver of whether or not we achieve our goals.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us, James, about the four elements of

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<v Speaker 1>habit formation, and then we can talk about how to

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<v Speaker 1>try to optimize given those elements.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. So there's a much longer scientific discussion of the

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<v Speaker 2>cinnatomic habits, but the brief summary is that I like

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<v Speaker 2>to break a habit into four different stages, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think if you understand these four stage you understand how

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<v Speaker 2>habits work. So the first step is there's a queue.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's something that you notice or gets your attention.

0:11:15.116 --> 0:11:17.836
<v Speaker 2>So for example, you hear a siren, that's an ambulance

0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:20.116
<v Speaker 2>coming up from behind you. That's an auditory queue that

0:11:20.236 --> 0:11:22.036
<v Speaker 2>starts the habit of pulling to the side of the road.

0:11:22.436 --> 0:11:24.556
<v Speaker 2>Or you see a plate of cookies on the counter

0:11:24.956 --> 0:11:26.796
<v Speaker 2>in the kitchen, that might be a visual queue that

0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:29.996
<v Speaker 2>starts the habit of eating a cookie. After the queue,

0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:32.716
<v Speaker 2>the second step is the craving. There's some kind of

0:11:32.756 --> 0:11:35.876
<v Speaker 2>interpretation that your brain makes about what's going on. So

0:11:36.436 --> 0:11:39.396
<v Speaker 2>you see the plate of cookies in the counter visual queue,

0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:42.676
<v Speaker 2>your brain thinks, oh, that'll be sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable.

0:11:42.956 --> 0:11:45.756
<v Speaker 2>And so it's actually this moment of assigning a favorable

0:11:45.836 --> 0:11:49.916
<v Speaker 2>meaning to the cookie that gives you this motivation, the urge,

0:11:49.996 --> 0:11:52.756
<v Speaker 2>the desire to walk over, pick it up and take

0:11:52.756 --> 0:11:55.876
<v Speaker 2>a bite. So that's the third step the response, and

0:11:55.916 --> 0:12:00.276
<v Speaker 2>then finally there's a reward. Oh, it is in fact sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable.

0:12:00.836 --> 0:12:04.756
<v Speaker 2>So Q craving response reward, And you can kind of

0:12:04.796 --> 0:12:07.316
<v Speaker 2>imagine those four stages like going around a clock Q

0:12:07.556 --> 0:12:11.116
<v Speaker 2>craving response reward, Q raving response reward. And the more

0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:13.956
<v Speaker 2>that you cycle around that clock, the tighter that feedback

0:12:13.996 --> 0:12:17.756
<v Speaker 2>loop becomes. The more that behaviors are preceded by a

0:12:17.796 --> 0:12:22.076
<v Speaker 2>reliable queue and followed by an enjoyable reward, the tighter

0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:24.956
<v Speaker 2>the habit is, and the more ingrained and automatic it becomes.

0:12:25.636 --> 0:12:29.036
<v Speaker 2>And so that's kind of the very brief scientific description

0:12:29.116 --> 0:12:30.836
<v Speaker 2>of what's going on in your brain when you're building

0:12:30.836 --> 0:12:31.236
<v Speaker 2>a habit.

0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:34.996
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what if the queue is simply a thought, Like

0:12:35.036 --> 0:12:38.556
<v Speaker 1>for a lot of times, the queue is simply I

0:12:38.636 --> 0:12:42.436
<v Speaker 1>want jalapino kettle potato chips, And it's like, I don't

0:12:42.476 --> 0:12:44.676
<v Speaker 1>really know if there's a physical que in my environment

0:12:44.796 --> 0:12:47.516
<v Speaker 1>or a particular context. It just that I know that

0:12:47.516 --> 0:12:50.636
<v Speaker 1>thing's delicious, and so my brain during the middle of

0:12:50.636 --> 0:12:51.876
<v Speaker 1>the day will just serve it up.

0:12:52.316 --> 0:12:56.116
<v Speaker 2>Yep. The answer to this is going to differ depending

0:12:56.116 --> 0:13:00.196
<v Speaker 2>on which researcher expert you talk to. For myself, I

0:13:00.236 --> 0:13:02.756
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Some people believe that internal cues are a

0:13:02.796 --> 0:13:07.876
<v Speaker 2>thing that they can arise spontaneously, and then that that

0:13:07.876 --> 0:13:10.796
<v Speaker 2>could somehow dry before it. I guess I'll just say

0:13:10.876 --> 0:13:13.876
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that spontaneous thoughts exist. It seems as

0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:17.596
<v Speaker 2>if life is a very long, cascading chain of cause

0:13:17.636 --> 0:13:20.716
<v Speaker 2>and effect, and that every thought actually comes from somewhere,

0:13:20.796 --> 0:13:22.956
<v Speaker 2>even if you can't pin it down yourself.

0:13:23.636 --> 0:13:27.076
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's no question, just from like a physics point

0:13:27.076 --> 0:13:28.756
<v Speaker 1>of view, that the thought about the kettle chips was

0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:32.036
<v Speaker 1>preceded by something. But it does feel different to me

0:13:32.116 --> 0:13:34.076
<v Speaker 1>when the queue is a plate of chocolatech of cookie

0:13:34.116 --> 0:13:37.036
<v Speaker 1>sitting on the counter, versus when the queue is a

0:13:37.116 --> 0:13:40.116
<v Speaker 1>flurry of subconscious thoughts that are then followed by wanting

0:13:40.156 --> 0:13:43.596
<v Speaker 1>the kettle chips. Because in that frame I feel like

0:13:43.636 --> 0:13:46.836
<v Speaker 1>I have less control over whether or not I get

0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:49.036
<v Speaker 1>access to that queue. I don't even know what served

0:13:49.036 --> 0:13:50.316
<v Speaker 1>it up in the first place. It was just a

0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:54.116
<v Speaker 1>random smattering of thoughts that unfold it in a particular sequence.

0:13:54.156 --> 0:13:55.236
<v Speaker 1>That's why it feels relevant.

0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:59.436
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, habits of thought seem to be very hard to interrupt,

0:13:59.636 --> 0:14:01.596
<v Speaker 2>you know. It's like, if this is bubbling up for me,

0:14:01.636 --> 0:14:04.276
<v Speaker 2>how do I fix this habit where all of a sudden,

0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:06.036
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I have this urge to do something

0:14:06.116 --> 0:14:08.916
<v Speaker 2>or to eat something, or to ruminate on something. And

0:14:09.236 --> 0:14:11.236
<v Speaker 2>I will say that I don't have a great answer

0:14:11.236 --> 0:14:13.716
<v Speaker 2>to that. It's not like saying, hey, if you don't

0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:15.796
<v Speaker 2>want to eat more peanut butter, let's just keep jars

0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:17.756
<v Speaker 2>of peanut butter out of the house, exact because now

0:14:17.796 --> 0:14:20.716
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of friction between you and the action, right.

0:14:20.836 --> 0:14:25.076
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, those neurons are inside your damn head. Can't run

0:14:25.116 --> 0:14:26.876
<v Speaker 1>away from them, folks can't lock them up.

0:14:26.956 --> 0:14:29.916
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, And so it's a very tricky thing and

0:14:29.956 --> 0:14:31.556
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I have a good answer to it.

0:14:32.356 --> 0:14:35.236
<v Speaker 1>After the break, James teaches us how we can build

0:14:35.276 --> 0:14:39.356
<v Speaker 1>habits that actually stick. We also discuss how our identity

0:14:39.356 --> 0:14:42.076
<v Speaker 1>can shape our habits, and how our habits can shape

0:14:42.076 --> 0:14:48.636
<v Speaker 1>our identity. We'll be back in a moment with a

0:14:48.636 --> 0:15:01.196
<v Speaker 1>slight change of plants. Let's talk about how we can

0:15:01.236 --> 0:15:04.276
<v Speaker 1>make good habits stick. Talk to me about the four

0:15:04.356 --> 0:15:06.796
<v Speaker 1>laws of habit building, and then for each one, I'd

0:15:06.836 --> 0:15:08.236
<v Speaker 1>love to ask you a couple of questions.

0:15:08.516 --> 0:15:10.516
<v Speaker 2>Sure, let me just give a brief summary and then

0:15:10.516 --> 0:15:12.996
<v Speaker 2>we can dive in. If you want a habit to stick,

0:15:13.156 --> 0:15:15.796
<v Speaker 2>there are basically four things that you want to happen.

0:15:16.236 --> 0:15:18.436
<v Speaker 2>So you want the cues of your good habits to

0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:20.796
<v Speaker 2>be obvious, so the first laws to make it obvious.

0:15:21.276 --> 0:15:23.996
<v Speaker 2>You want the craving to be attractive, to be compelling,

0:15:24.036 --> 0:15:26.116
<v Speaker 2>so the second laws to make it attractive. The more

0:15:26.516 --> 0:15:28.996
<v Speaker 2>compelling or enticing or motivating a habit is, the more

0:15:29.036 --> 0:15:30.836
<v Speaker 2>likely are going to feel like you want to do it.

0:15:31.836 --> 0:15:34.356
<v Speaker 2>The third laws you want to make it easy. The easier,

0:15:34.476 --> 0:15:38.156
<v Speaker 2>more convenient, frictionalless simple habit is, the more likely it

0:15:38.276 --> 0:15:40.756
<v Speaker 2>is to be performed. And then the fourth and final

0:15:40.796 --> 0:15:42.876
<v Speaker 2>laws you want to make it satisfying. The more satisfying

0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:45.636
<v Speaker 2>or enjoyable habit is, the more rewarding or pleasurable it

0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:48.316
<v Speaker 2>is the more likely you are to feel compelled to

0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:51.076
<v Speaker 2>do it in the future. So if you're sitting there

0:15:51.076 --> 0:15:53.436
<v Speaker 2>and you're thinking, no, I have this habit, I keep

0:15:53.436 --> 0:15:56.076
<v Speaker 2>procrastinating on it. I just can't quite seem to get started.

0:15:56.636 --> 0:15:59.596
<v Speaker 2>You can just go through those four laws and ask yourself,

0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:02.436
<v Speaker 2>how can I make the behavior more obvious? How can

0:16:02.476 --> 0:16:04.916
<v Speaker 2>I make it more attractive? How can I make it easier?

0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:07.916
<v Speaker 2>How can I make it more satisfying? And the answers

0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:10.956
<v Speaker 2>to those questions will reveal different steps that you can take.

0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:14.236
<v Speaker 1>So let's start with how we can make things more obvious.

0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:16.116
<v Speaker 1>What are some examples?

0:16:16.436 --> 0:16:18.276
<v Speaker 2>I think one interesting thing you can do is just

0:16:18.316 --> 0:16:19.996
<v Speaker 2>hold a habit in the back of your mind that

0:16:20.036 --> 0:16:22.676
<v Speaker 2>you're thinking about building, and then walk into the rooms

0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:25.156
<v Speaker 2>where you spend most of your time each day and

0:16:25.276 --> 0:16:28.556
<v Speaker 2>look around and ask yourself, what is this space designed

0:16:28.556 --> 0:16:32.036
<v Speaker 2>to encourage? What behaviors are obvious here? What behaviors are

0:16:32.076 --> 0:16:35.436
<v Speaker 2>easy here? And you're going to start to notice different things. So,

0:16:35.556 --> 0:16:38.556
<v Speaker 2>for example, I had a reader who wanted to practice

0:16:38.556 --> 0:16:40.756
<v Speaker 2>guitar more frequently. He would go once a week and

0:16:40.796 --> 0:16:42.476
<v Speaker 2>then he would not practice, and he'd show up with

0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:45.356
<v Speaker 2>the next lesson and his instructor would say, you haven't practiced,

0:16:45.796 --> 0:16:48.556
<v Speaker 2>and so he took his guitar out of the case,

0:16:48.836 --> 0:16:50.516
<v Speaker 2>put it on a stand in the middle of the

0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:52.916
<v Speaker 2>living room. He would pass it thirty times a day,

0:16:53.156 --> 0:16:55.036
<v Speaker 2>and so he's more likely to pick it up and play.

0:16:55.316 --> 0:16:57.916
<v Speaker 2>So get you get the idea right, which is you're

0:16:57.916 --> 0:16:59.476
<v Speaker 2>just trying to make the thing that you want to

0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:01.996
<v Speaker 2>do more obvious, and you're trying to make the thing

0:17:02.036 --> 0:17:04.716
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to do less obvious and increase friction there.

0:17:05.236 --> 0:17:07.236
<v Speaker 1>What do we do in situations where we really don't

0:17:07.276 --> 0:17:10.556
<v Speaker 1>have a lot of control over our environment. This actually

0:17:10.556 --> 0:17:14.476
<v Speaker 1>became quite salient during quarantine for me. So I remember

0:17:14.916 --> 0:17:18.156
<v Speaker 1>I was working basically from my kitchen, and so there

0:17:18.236 --> 0:17:21.916
<v Speaker 1>was no ability for me to make something like obvious

0:17:21.956 --> 0:17:24.676
<v Speaker 1>you're not obvious in that context or as much harder too.

0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:27.316
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so what if we can't do something about this?

0:17:27.356 --> 0:17:29.876
<v Speaker 2>So COVID is a very easy example that you just mentioned.

0:17:29.876 --> 0:17:31.476
<v Speaker 2>You know a lot of people suddenly they're working from

0:17:31.476 --> 0:17:33.476
<v Speaker 2>the kitchen or from their living room. Now I can

0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:35.916
<v Speaker 2>snack all day or turn on TV anytime or whatever.

0:17:36.436 --> 0:17:38.276
<v Speaker 2>So this is a strategy. It comes from BJ Fogg,

0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:40.516
<v Speaker 2>Professor at Stanford, and he's got this kind of tiny

0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:43.156
<v Speaker 2>habits method. I refer to it in atomic habits as

0:17:43.156 --> 0:17:45.636
<v Speaker 2>habit stacking, because you're going to stack your new habit

0:17:45.676 --> 0:17:48.156
<v Speaker 2>on top of an old one. But the idea is

0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:51.036
<v Speaker 2>just that in FOG's insight, which I think is really smart,

0:17:51.516 --> 0:17:53.636
<v Speaker 2>is that it's often easier to stick to a new

0:17:53.636 --> 0:17:55.956
<v Speaker 2>habit if you chain it or link it to something

0:17:55.956 --> 0:17:57.996
<v Speaker 2>that you just did before. So let's take your example

0:17:58.036 --> 0:18:01.356
<v Speaker 2>of working in the kitchen. Maybe something you already do

0:18:01.436 --> 0:18:03.756
<v Speaker 2>each morning is that you make a cup of coffee,

0:18:04.156 --> 0:18:06.756
<v Speaker 2>and maybe there's some new productive behavior that you want

0:18:06.756 --> 0:18:08.236
<v Speaker 2>to do so that you get into the swing of

0:18:08.276 --> 0:18:10.076
<v Speaker 2>your day. You know, just say work on the most

0:18:10.116 --> 0:18:12.436
<v Speaker 2>important past, just to use a general thing, but it

0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:14.116
<v Speaker 2>could be more specific if you know what it is

0:18:14.156 --> 0:18:17.156
<v Speaker 2>for your job. So your habit stack could be something

0:18:17.236 --> 0:18:19.836
<v Speaker 2>like I walk into the kitchen, I make my cup

0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:22.476
<v Speaker 2>of coffee. After I pour my cup of coffee, I

0:18:22.476 --> 0:18:25.156
<v Speaker 2>will immediately start working on the most important thing. And

0:18:25.196 --> 0:18:27.836
<v Speaker 2>you give yourself this order of events that things always

0:18:27.836 --> 0:18:29.596
<v Speaker 2>happen in the same way, and so you kind of

0:18:29.676 --> 0:18:32.476
<v Speaker 2>try to link the habit to a specific queue in

0:18:32.476 --> 0:18:33.196
<v Speaker 2>that environment.

0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:37.356
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about making things attractive. So what does this

0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:40.316
<v Speaker 1>mean in the context of habit formation. I'm assuming you

0:18:40.396 --> 0:18:42.276
<v Speaker 1>mean I should just bring a life size poster like

0:18:42.356 --> 0:18:43.956
<v Speaker 1>David Beckham with me everywhere I go.

0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:47.276
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, though like that could do. It depends on what

0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:50.516
<v Speaker 2>the habit is. So I think my current answer to

0:18:50.556 --> 0:18:52.356
<v Speaker 2>this I wish I had written this in the book,

0:18:52.396 --> 0:18:57.156
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't. It is worth asking yourself what would

0:18:57.156 --> 0:18:59.516
<v Speaker 2>this look like if it was fun. One of the

0:18:59.556 --> 0:19:03.236
<v Speaker 2>most common New Year's resolutions is to exercise more. And

0:19:03.636 --> 0:19:05.716
<v Speaker 2>I think that a lot of people are exercising or

0:19:05.756 --> 0:19:07.636
<v Speaker 2>going to the gym in January just because they feel

0:19:07.676 --> 0:19:09.556
<v Speaker 2>like they should go to the gym, or that like

0:19:09.596 --> 0:19:13.956
<v Speaker 2>society wants them to or they're expected to. And there

0:19:13.996 --> 0:19:17.356
<v Speaker 2>are many ways to live an active lifestyle. Some people

0:19:17.396 --> 0:19:19.556
<v Speaker 2>like lifting weights like a bodybuilder, and that's great, but

0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:21.876
<v Speaker 2>you don't have to do that. You could kayak or

0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:23.996
<v Speaker 2>rock climb, or go for a run or do yoga.

0:19:24.036 --> 0:19:26.396
<v Speaker 2>Like we could come up with an almost infinite list

0:19:26.516 --> 0:19:29.476
<v Speaker 2>of what that might look like, and you should choose

0:19:29.516 --> 0:19:32.276
<v Speaker 2>the version of that habit that is most fun to you.

0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:36.116
<v Speaker 2>And this doesn't mean that every habit in your life

0:19:36.156 --> 0:19:37.836
<v Speaker 2>is going to feel like going to a concert. Right,

0:19:37.836 --> 0:19:39.316
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't mean that like your habits are going to

0:19:39.356 --> 0:19:42.036
<v Speaker 2>feel like the most fun thing that you do. But

0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:45.196
<v Speaker 2>most things in life, there may not be like a

0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:47.556
<v Speaker 2>thousand ways to do it, but there's almost always more

0:19:47.596 --> 0:19:50.396
<v Speaker 2>than one way, and you can almost always find a

0:19:50.516 --> 0:19:53.596
<v Speaker 2>version that is more fun than the default. And so

0:19:54.076 --> 0:19:55.436
<v Speaker 2>I think you should start there.

0:19:56.196 --> 0:19:58.796
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think one thing we can suffer from I

0:19:58.836 --> 0:20:01.156
<v Speaker 1>certainly suffer from this is having a bit of a

0:20:01.276 --> 0:20:05.116
<v Speaker 1>purity complex around building new habits or certain behaviors. So

0:20:05.836 --> 0:20:07.996
<v Speaker 1>one of my goals is to just eat more vegetables.

0:20:07.996 --> 0:20:10.596
<v Speaker 1>Team I'm a vegetari, so you know, it's a pretty

0:20:10.676 --> 0:20:12.876
<v Speaker 1>pretty substantial fraction of what I should be eating, but

0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:15.436
<v Speaker 1>I don't. And so my goal is to eat salad

0:20:15.476 --> 0:20:17.956
<v Speaker 1>more regularly. But I had a purity complex about it.

0:20:17.996 --> 0:20:19.436
<v Speaker 1>So it's like, well, if I'm going to eat salad,

0:20:19.436 --> 0:20:21.236
<v Speaker 1>then I should get the healthy dressing and I should

0:20:21.276 --> 0:20:23.796
<v Speaker 1>be really sparing in terms of the toppings salad toppers

0:20:23.796 --> 0:20:26.236
<v Speaker 1>I put on it. And my husband kind of changed

0:20:26.316 --> 0:20:29.236
<v Speaker 1>my mind about this. He like makes his salad a

0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:32.036
<v Speaker 1>party every day. There's like a party inside his bowl, James,

0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:36.036
<v Speaker 1>and so I have become very expensive. In my definition

0:20:36.076 --> 0:20:37.836
<v Speaker 1>of what a salad topper is, it could be crushed

0:20:37.836 --> 0:20:41.356
<v Speaker 1>of potato chips. The other day, I put Snyder's honey

0:20:41.476 --> 0:20:44.716
<v Speaker 1>mustard pretzels on top of my salad and I just

0:20:44.756 --> 0:20:47.036
<v Speaker 1>go like I go to town with the salad. And

0:20:47.036 --> 0:20:50.476
<v Speaker 1>what's remarkable, since implementing this new rule at work this

0:20:50.556 --> 0:20:53.556
<v Speaker 1>whole year, I basically had salad for lunch like ninety

0:20:53.596 --> 0:20:55.756
<v Speaker 1>percent of the time. And so that was a really

0:20:55.796 --> 0:20:58.156
<v Speaker 1>good lesson for me, which is, if you're trying to

0:20:58.236 --> 0:21:01.996
<v Speaker 1>introduce a new thing, you don't have to reach for

0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:06.476
<v Speaker 1>perfection or feel like it's a painful, arduous process, and

0:21:06.516 --> 0:21:09.796
<v Speaker 1>therefore it's virtuous. There's some middle ground there, and it

0:21:09.836 --> 0:21:11.716
<v Speaker 1>actually led my habit to stick because I do look

0:21:11.756 --> 0:21:15.276
<v Speaker 1>forward to I look forward to lunch now like a

0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:16.716
<v Speaker 1>lunch that includes salad.

0:21:17.516 --> 0:21:20.676
<v Speaker 2>That's a great example. There is so much truth to

0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:23.116
<v Speaker 2>the fact that you should try to do things in

0:21:23.156 --> 0:21:26.036
<v Speaker 2>the beginning that feel good and are enjoyable, and if

0:21:26.076 --> 0:21:28.956
<v Speaker 2>you can find a way to make it enjoyable, then

0:21:29.156 --> 0:21:31.756
<v Speaker 2>you have a reason to keep repeating it. And now

0:21:31.796 --> 0:21:34.916
<v Speaker 2>that you're having salid ninety percent of days, sure, maybe

0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:36.876
<v Speaker 2>there are little ways that you can start to optimize it.

0:21:37.356 --> 0:21:39.396
<v Speaker 2>I think you bring up a good point about there's

0:21:39.436 --> 0:21:41.556
<v Speaker 2>a certain type of person that has this mindset where

0:21:41.556 --> 0:21:43.356
<v Speaker 2>it's like for it to be virtuous or for it

0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:45.516
<v Speaker 2>to count, it has to be perfect, or it has

0:21:45.556 --> 0:21:47.356
<v Speaker 2>to be done you know, really well.

0:21:47.196 --> 0:21:49.316
<v Speaker 1>Or that or very hard in pa.

0:21:49.156 --> 0:21:51.516
<v Speaker 2>I need to feel like I'm suffering otherwise it doesn't

0:21:51.556 --> 0:21:54.356
<v Speaker 2>count yep. And that's a mindset that I do think,

0:21:54.396 --> 0:21:56.116
<v Speaker 2>even if it has served you in your life where

0:21:56.156 --> 0:21:57.916
<v Speaker 2>you found it useful in many ways, which I think

0:21:57.916 --> 0:21:59.276
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the people who believe it because they

0:21:59.276 --> 0:22:02.556
<v Speaker 2>feel like it's served them, it's worth releasing that for

0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:05.156
<v Speaker 2>a little bit and at least experimenting and seeing what

0:22:05.196 --> 0:22:06.716
<v Speaker 2>it might be like for it to be fun for

0:22:06.796 --> 0:22:08.876
<v Speaker 2>a little bit and to get the habit established and

0:22:09.356 --> 0:22:11.396
<v Speaker 2>you can scale it up and turn into something more.

0:22:11.916 --> 0:22:14.276
<v Speaker 2>And this can take many different shapes, but I do

0:22:14.316 --> 0:22:16.716
<v Speaker 2>think that this is a very deep truth about habits,

0:22:16.796 --> 0:22:19.796
<v Speaker 2>which is a habit must be established before it can

0:22:19.836 --> 0:22:22.356
<v Speaker 2>be improved. You know, it has to become the standard

0:22:22.396 --> 0:22:24.156
<v Speaker 2>in your life before you can scale it up and

0:22:24.196 --> 0:22:25.956
<v Speaker 2>optimize it and turn it into all the things that

0:22:25.956 --> 0:22:28.356
<v Speaker 2>you want it to be. And so you figured out

0:22:28.356 --> 0:22:31.476
<v Speaker 2>how to get salads established as part of your daily routine,

0:22:31.796 --> 0:22:35.636
<v Speaker 2>and you made it fun, and once it was established, great,

0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:37.796
<v Speaker 2>then there were so many ways that you could figure

0:22:37.796 --> 0:22:39.876
<v Speaker 2>out how to make it healthier. But you try to

0:22:39.916 --> 0:22:41.676
<v Speaker 2>figure out how do I get this going first? And

0:22:41.796 --> 0:22:44.236
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a great lens to use. There's also

0:22:44.596 --> 0:22:46.476
<v Speaker 2>another question that I think is worth just kind of

0:22:46.516 --> 0:22:49.556
<v Speaker 2>thinking about or holding on to, which is a lot

0:22:49.556 --> 0:22:51.916
<v Speaker 2>of people start by when they think about the habits

0:22:51.956 --> 0:22:53.756
<v Speaker 2>they want to build. I think especially this is a

0:22:53.756 --> 0:22:56.716
<v Speaker 2>pitfall for ambitious people or talented people who you know,

0:22:56.796 --> 0:22:58.916
<v Speaker 2>really when you start sitting her down and thinking about

0:22:58.956 --> 0:23:01.836
<v Speaker 2>what I want to achieve, your natural inclinations to be, like,

0:23:02.476 --> 0:23:04.156
<v Speaker 2>what could I do on my best day? You know,

0:23:04.196 --> 0:23:06.276
<v Speaker 2>what would it look like if I was at peak performance?

0:23:06.356 --> 0:23:07.956
<v Speaker 2>What would it look like if I was really firing

0:23:07.956 --> 0:23:10.876
<v Speaker 2>on all cylinders. You start to get excited about who

0:23:10.956 --> 0:23:15.396
<v Speaker 2>that future peak performance you could be, and instead, I

0:23:15.436 --> 0:23:17.676
<v Speaker 2>think it's almost better to ask yourself, what would I

0:23:17.676 --> 0:23:19.156
<v Speaker 2>stick to even on my bad days?

0:23:19.476 --> 0:23:20.756
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? I really like that.

0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:22.636
<v Speaker 2>What would I stick to on my worst day? And

0:23:22.676 --> 0:23:25.356
<v Speaker 2>that becomes the baseline for the new habit. You know,

0:23:25.436 --> 0:23:27.276
<v Speaker 2>you're like, even when I don't feel like eating salad,

0:23:27.276 --> 0:23:28.836
<v Speaker 2>I'll probably eat this one that tastes really good and

0:23:28.836 --> 0:23:30.396
<v Speaker 2>has the potato chips on it, and it's like kind

0:23:30.396 --> 0:23:33.436
<v Speaker 2>of fun and exciting, and you can come up with

0:23:33.516 --> 0:23:35.156
<v Speaker 2>like what that might look like for me. For my

0:23:35.196 --> 0:23:37.716
<v Speaker 2>writing habit, one of my objectives is just to write

0:23:37.716 --> 0:23:39.836
<v Speaker 2>one sentence a day. It's like, look, even when I'm

0:23:39.836 --> 0:23:42.396
<v Speaker 2>exhausted and the day has gone terribly and I haven't

0:23:42.396 --> 0:23:44.396
<v Speaker 2>gotten anything done I wanted to get done, I can

0:23:44.476 --> 0:23:46.916
<v Speaker 2>write one sentence before I go to sleep. So figure

0:23:46.916 --> 0:23:49.156
<v Speaker 2>out what your baseline is for what you can stick

0:23:49.196 --> 0:23:51.116
<v Speaker 2>to even on the bad days, and then great, if

0:23:51.116 --> 0:23:53.436
<v Speaker 2>you feel better, scale it up from there. But I

0:23:53.476 --> 0:23:55.796
<v Speaker 2>think your example is a nice way of seeing how

0:23:55.836 --> 0:23:56.516
<v Speaker 2>that can work out.

0:23:57.316 --> 0:24:00.276
<v Speaker 1>I this also, you know, fits into your make it

0:24:00.356 --> 0:24:03.676
<v Speaker 1>easy bucket of habit formation. I love one of the

0:24:03.676 --> 0:24:06.276
<v Speaker 1>stories that you talk about, which is a guy who

0:24:06.316 --> 0:24:08.116
<v Speaker 1>is trying to commit to going to the gym.

0:24:08.316 --> 0:24:11.236
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's this reader, my name Mitch, and he's lost

0:24:11.276 --> 0:24:13.276
<v Speaker 2>over one hundred pounds and now he's kept it off

0:24:13.276 --> 0:24:15.716
<v Speaker 2>for more than a decade. And when he first started

0:24:15.756 --> 0:24:18.196
<v Speaker 2>going to the gym, he had this strange little rule

0:24:18.196 --> 0:24:21.116
<v Speaker 2>for himself where for the first six weeks he wasn't

0:24:21.156 --> 0:24:23.196
<v Speaker 2>allowed to stay for longer than five minutes, so he

0:24:23.236 --> 0:24:25.076
<v Speaker 2>would get in the car, drive to the gym, do

0:24:25.156 --> 0:24:27.596
<v Speaker 2>half an exercise, get back to the car, drive home.

0:24:27.916 --> 0:24:29.756
<v Speaker 2>He was mastering the art of showing up. He was

0:24:29.796 --> 0:24:32.316
<v Speaker 2>figuring out how to make it part of his daily routine,

0:24:32.316 --> 0:24:34.676
<v Speaker 2>how to make it fun or easy enough that he

0:24:34.716 --> 0:24:37.916
<v Speaker 2>would do it. And there's this great quote from Ed

0:24:37.996 --> 0:24:40.036
<v Speaker 2>Latimer where he says, the heaviest weight at the gym

0:24:40.116 --> 0:24:42.556
<v Speaker 2>is the front door. Like, there are a lot of

0:24:42.556 --> 0:24:44.156
<v Speaker 2>things in life that are like that. You know, the

0:24:44.196 --> 0:24:45.596
<v Speaker 2>hardest step is the first.

0:24:45.316 --> 0:24:48.356
<v Speaker 1>One, absolutely, And then what about the fourth law of

0:24:48.356 --> 0:24:51.276
<v Speaker 1>habit building making it satisfying? How is this different from

0:24:51.316 --> 0:24:53.956
<v Speaker 1>making something attractive? Is this more the residual feeling that

0:24:54.036 --> 0:24:55.716
<v Speaker 1>you're left with after the experience.

0:24:56.116 --> 0:24:57.916
<v Speaker 2>No, it's a good question. They're definitely related.

0:24:57.956 --> 0:24:58.156
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:24:58.396 --> 0:25:02.156
<v Speaker 2>The make it attractive is often not exclusively, but often

0:25:02.236 --> 0:25:05.356
<v Speaker 2>it's about your expectation of what the payoff is going

0:25:05.436 --> 0:25:07.756
<v Speaker 2>to be. So it's the attractive part is usually about

0:25:07.796 --> 0:25:13.316
<v Speaker 2>anticipation motivation, whereas the satisfying part is about the resolution

0:25:13.636 --> 0:25:16.876
<v Speaker 2>of that anticipation. So making it attractive is like I

0:25:16.956 --> 0:25:20.036
<v Speaker 2>expect this cookie to taste good. Making it satisfying is

0:25:20.156 --> 0:25:23.756
<v Speaker 2>I just ate it, And it did in fact taste sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable.

0:25:23.876 --> 0:25:24.036
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:25:24.476 --> 0:25:27.076
<v Speaker 2>But the point here that the kind of practical takeaway,

0:25:27.276 --> 0:25:29.116
<v Speaker 2>and I refer to this in the book as the

0:25:29.116 --> 0:25:32.556
<v Speaker 2>cardinal rule of behavior change, which is behaviors that get

0:25:32.556 --> 0:25:37.036
<v Speaker 2>immediately rewarded get repeated, behaviors that get immediately punished get avoided.

0:25:37.476 --> 0:25:40.876
<v Speaker 2>And it is such a basic, simple idea as soon

0:25:40.916 --> 0:25:43.996
<v Speaker 2>as you hear it stated. But all human beings like

0:25:44.076 --> 0:25:46.356
<v Speaker 2>to feel good. We all want to feel praised, to

0:25:46.356 --> 0:25:49.356
<v Speaker 2>feel rewarded, We all want to feel satisfied and to

0:25:49.516 --> 0:25:52.316
<v Speaker 2>enjoy experiences in life. And so the more that your

0:25:52.356 --> 0:25:55.876
<v Speaker 2>habits can give you a positive emotion like that, the

0:25:55.916 --> 0:25:57.916
<v Speaker 2>more likely you are to repeat them in the future.

0:25:58.236 --> 0:26:00.396
<v Speaker 2>And we also, on the flip side, want to avoid

0:26:00.436 --> 0:26:03.116
<v Speaker 2>things that have consequences that feel painful, that it cause

0:26:03.156 --> 0:26:06.796
<v Speaker 2>you to suffer, that are unenjoyable. So the basic idea

0:26:06.836 --> 0:26:09.356
<v Speaker 2>here is how do I feel after I can lead

0:26:09.396 --> 0:26:11.596
<v Speaker 2>the habit, And the more that you feel good or

0:26:11.716 --> 0:26:13.516
<v Speaker 2>enjoy it, the more likely are to show up again

0:26:13.556 --> 0:26:15.196
<v Speaker 2>in the future. So that's kind of the big picture

0:26:15.276 --> 0:26:15.596
<v Speaker 2>view of it.

0:26:16.476 --> 0:26:20.516
<v Speaker 1>This is why my absolute favorite number one habit building

0:26:20.796 --> 0:26:24.916
<v Speaker 1>strategy is temptation fundling, which is, you know, it was

0:26:24.956 --> 0:26:28.516
<v Speaker 1>a concept created by my friend and former collaborator Katie Milkman,

0:26:28.676 --> 0:26:33.236
<v Speaker 1>and essentially all temptation bundling is you pair the undesirable thing. Right.

0:26:33.436 --> 0:26:36.316
<v Speaker 1>Let's say you have to fold laundry with a desirable thing,

0:26:36.556 --> 0:26:38.596
<v Speaker 1>which in this case is of course listening to an

0:26:38.596 --> 0:26:41.516
<v Speaker 1>episode of A Slight Change of Plans, right, And so

0:26:42.036 --> 0:26:45.356
<v Speaker 1>you pair these two things, but really crucially you deny

0:26:45.436 --> 0:26:48.076
<v Speaker 1>yourself the ability to do the pleasurable thing outside of

0:26:48.076 --> 0:26:50.756
<v Speaker 1>the context of the undesirable activity.

0:26:50.836 --> 0:26:50.956
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:26:50.996 --> 0:26:53.156
<v Speaker 1>So if you're not doing laundry, then you're not listening

0:26:53.196 --> 0:26:55.676
<v Speaker 1>to your favorite episode of a podcast or a TV

0:26:55.716 --> 0:26:59.436
<v Speaker 1>show or whatnot. And I cannot tell you what a

0:26:59.516 --> 0:27:02.956
<v Speaker 1>game changer this has been for me in my life.

0:27:03.556 --> 0:27:05.756
<v Speaker 1>One of the biggest reasons that I was drawn to

0:27:05.796 --> 0:27:07.836
<v Speaker 1>your work, James, and what I found so refreshing in

0:27:07.876 --> 0:27:10.916
<v Speaker 1>Atomic Habits is that you talk about habits in the

0:27:10.956 --> 0:27:12.236
<v Speaker 1>context of identity.

0:27:12.676 --> 0:27:16.396
<v Speaker 2>So we often talk about habits as mattering because of

0:27:16.436 --> 0:27:19.156
<v Speaker 2>the external results they'll get you. But I think the

0:27:19.236 --> 0:27:22.916
<v Speaker 2>real reason the habits matter is that every action you

0:27:23.036 --> 0:27:24.916
<v Speaker 2>take is a vote for the type of person you

0:27:24.956 --> 0:27:28.276
<v Speaker 2>wish to become. So your habits are how you embody

0:27:28.676 --> 0:27:32.116
<v Speaker 2>a particular identity. So, for example, every morning that you

0:27:32.156 --> 0:27:34.716
<v Speaker 2>make your bet, you embody the identity of someone who

0:27:34.756 --> 0:27:38.036
<v Speaker 2>is clean and organized. Every time that you study biology

0:27:38.076 --> 0:27:40.956
<v Speaker 2>for twenty minutes on Tuesday night, you embody the identity

0:27:41.036 --> 0:27:45.316
<v Speaker 2>of someone who is studious. And individually these are small things,

0:27:45.476 --> 0:27:48.476
<v Speaker 2>but collectively it's like casting votes on this pile and

0:27:48.516 --> 0:27:51.076
<v Speaker 2>building up a body of evidence for being that kind

0:27:51.076 --> 0:27:53.996
<v Speaker 2>of person. And the first time that you go out

0:27:54.036 --> 0:27:56.996
<v Speaker 2>and shoot a basketball for five minutes, you don't suddenly think, oh,

0:27:57.076 --> 0:27:59.916
<v Speaker 2>I'm a basketball player. But if you do that every

0:27:59.996 --> 0:28:02.636
<v Speaker 2>day for the next six months or year or two years,

0:28:02.716 --> 0:28:05.316
<v Speaker 2>at some point you kind of cross this invisible threshold

0:28:05.596 --> 0:28:08.196
<v Speaker 2>where you say, hey, being a basketball player must be

0:28:08.236 --> 0:28:09.796
<v Speaker 2>a big part of my life, Like that's kind of

0:28:09.836 --> 0:28:12.276
<v Speaker 2>part of who I am. And I think this is

0:28:12.396 --> 0:28:15.076
<v Speaker 2>ultimately where we're trying to get to, and this is

0:28:15.156 --> 0:28:17.836
<v Speaker 2>in atomic habits. I call this identity based habits, but

0:28:17.876 --> 0:28:22.276
<v Speaker 2>it's basically this idea that true behavior change is really

0:28:22.316 --> 0:28:25.516
<v Speaker 2>identity change. It's really getting you to shift the story

0:28:25.916 --> 0:28:28.756
<v Speaker 2>about who you are and what's normal for you. And

0:28:28.796 --> 0:28:31.316
<v Speaker 2>if you start to take pride in that aspect of

0:28:31.316 --> 0:28:33.836
<v Speaker 2>your story, if you start to believe I'm this kind

0:28:33.876 --> 0:28:36.676
<v Speaker 2>of person who does this, it becomes a little easier

0:28:36.676 --> 0:28:39.596
<v Speaker 2>to stick to the behavior. And I think that's the deeper,

0:28:39.716 --> 0:28:41.876
<v Speaker 2>more meaningful reason to care about your habits and what

0:28:41.956 --> 0:28:44.636
<v Speaker 2>they are, because they're shaping you every day.

0:28:44.956 --> 0:28:47.436
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I love how subtle changes in the way

0:28:47.436 --> 0:28:50.396
<v Speaker 1>that we frame things to ourselves or to others can

0:28:50.436 --> 0:28:52.556
<v Speaker 1>have a big impact on our behavior. So the whole

0:28:52.556 --> 0:28:55.356
<v Speaker 1>research on identity priming which says that we act in

0:28:55.396 --> 0:28:58.476
<v Speaker 1>ways that align with our current identity or the identity

0:28:58.476 --> 0:29:01.396
<v Speaker 1>that we aspire to have, so it can use health reinforcing.

0:29:01.396 --> 0:29:04.596
<v Speaker 1>And you give the example of someone who's trying to

0:29:04.676 --> 0:29:07.716
<v Speaker 1>quit smoking cigarettes and they're offered a cigarette and one

0:29:07.756 --> 0:29:10.036
<v Speaker 1>person says, no thanks, I'm trying to quit, Okay, that

0:29:10.076 --> 0:29:13.356
<v Speaker 1>person's identity is of being someone who's trying to change

0:29:13.596 --> 0:29:16.116
<v Speaker 1>versus someone who says no thanks, I'm not a smoker.

0:29:16.436 --> 0:29:19.596
<v Speaker 1>They no longer identify as someone who smokes, and that

0:29:19.756 --> 0:29:23.316
<v Speaker 1>slight tweak in how we self identify can have a

0:29:23.316 --> 0:29:25.436
<v Speaker 1>big impact on our subsequent decisions.

0:29:26.396 --> 0:29:28.676
<v Speaker 2>I think that behavior and beliefs are two way street.

0:29:28.956 --> 0:29:31.676
<v Speaker 2>So you know, what you believe influences the way you act,

0:29:31.916 --> 0:29:33.996
<v Speaker 2>and the way you act influence is what you think

0:29:33.996 --> 0:29:36.996
<v Speaker 2>about yourself. And so that's why I often encourage people

0:29:37.116 --> 0:29:39.556
<v Speaker 2>start with, you know, one sales call or one push

0:29:39.636 --> 0:29:42.276
<v Speaker 2>up or one minute meditation like that action can help

0:29:42.316 --> 0:29:44.916
<v Speaker 2>cast a boat for believing something new about yourself. Yeah,

0:29:44.956 --> 0:29:47.516
<v Speaker 2>but the example that you're giving here, you can see

0:29:47.516 --> 0:29:49.356
<v Speaker 2>how it works the other way as well. You know,

0:29:49.436 --> 0:29:53.036
<v Speaker 2>we all have beliefs and identities that serve us and

0:29:53.116 --> 0:29:56.596
<v Speaker 2>that hinder us. So things like I'm terrible remembering people's names,

0:29:56.676 --> 0:29:59.236
<v Speaker 2>I'm not good at directions, I have a sweet tooth.

0:29:59.676 --> 0:30:02.836
<v Speaker 2>These are all little stories that you tell yourself that

0:30:02.956 --> 0:30:08.276
<v Speaker 2>reinforce a certain type of behavior. And progress often requires

0:30:08.356 --> 0:30:11.876
<v Speaker 2>unlearning as much as it requires learning. And so one

0:30:11.876 --> 0:30:15.036
<v Speaker 2>of the big challenges with the behavior changes, can I

0:30:15.116 --> 0:30:18.396
<v Speaker 2>unlearn some of the identities that are no longer serving me? Yeah,

0:30:18.436 --> 0:30:20.876
<v Speaker 2>And so that's a tricky thing, and I think the

0:30:20.876 --> 0:30:23.036
<v Speaker 2>best way to do it is by taking small actions

0:30:23.396 --> 0:30:25.756
<v Speaker 2>that cast votes for this new identity that you want

0:30:25.796 --> 0:30:28.996
<v Speaker 2>to have and gradually let the new identity crowd out

0:30:29.076 --> 0:30:31.516
<v Speaker 2>the older one. But it's not a one time thing.

0:30:31.636 --> 0:30:33.436
<v Speaker 2>It's not a one day thing. It's a lifestyle.

0:30:33.676 --> 0:30:33.876
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:30:33.996 --> 0:30:36.276
<v Speaker 2>And the more that you can start to embrace that,

0:30:36.316 --> 0:30:37.836
<v Speaker 2>the more that you can start to foster and build

0:30:37.836 --> 0:30:38.676
<v Speaker 2>these new identities.

0:30:39.436 --> 0:30:43.636
<v Speaker 1>It seems so appealing to tether your identity to your

0:30:43.636 --> 0:30:46.596
<v Speaker 1>behaviors because it is such a hugely motivating force. Right.

0:30:46.676 --> 0:30:49.716
<v Speaker 1>If you self identify as a runner, you're more likely

0:30:49.796 --> 0:30:51.476
<v Speaker 1>to run. If you self identify as a writer, you're

0:30:51.476 --> 0:30:54.116
<v Speaker 1>more likely to write. But it's a double edged sword, right,

0:30:54.196 --> 0:30:56.716
<v Speaker 1>because if we wrap our sense of self, our sense

0:30:56.756 --> 0:31:01.156
<v Speaker 1>is self worth so much in our habits, then if

0:31:01.196 --> 0:31:03.676
<v Speaker 1>you lose the ability to do something, it can be

0:31:03.716 --> 0:31:07.956
<v Speaker 1>so destabilizing. Right. So let's imagine a woman who's been

0:31:07.956 --> 0:31:10.076
<v Speaker 1>a runner for the last ten years, self identifies as

0:31:10.076 --> 0:31:12.836
<v Speaker 1>a runner, then has kids and endures some sort of

0:31:12.876 --> 0:31:15.196
<v Speaker 1>injury as a result of her pregnancy that renders are

0:31:15.396 --> 0:31:19.196
<v Speaker 1>unable to run. Now you're not only mourning the loss

0:31:19.236 --> 0:31:21.996
<v Speaker 1>of running, but you're mourning the loss of yourself in

0:31:22.036 --> 0:31:24.516
<v Speaker 1>some more fundamental way. And so how do we think

0:31:24.556 --> 0:31:27.156
<v Speaker 1>about that trade off so that the transitions in life.

0:31:27.196 --> 0:31:28.956
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the show is all about slight changes of

0:31:28.996 --> 0:31:33.236
<v Speaker 1>plan don't carry such a heavy burden.

0:31:33.916 --> 0:31:35.556
<v Speaker 2>This is very common. I've heard about this from a

0:31:35.556 --> 0:31:37.516
<v Speaker 2>lot of readers since the book has come out. So

0:31:37.596 --> 0:31:39.796
<v Speaker 2>some other examples that are similar to what you're mentioning.

0:31:40.396 --> 0:31:42.636
<v Speaker 2>A person who identifies as a soldier. They've been in

0:31:42.636 --> 0:31:45.116
<v Speaker 2>the military for many years, and then they leave and

0:31:45.156 --> 0:31:47.276
<v Speaker 2>they become a civilian. What am I now? I feel

0:31:47.276 --> 0:31:49.716
<v Speaker 2>like I lost my identity. I recently heard from a

0:31:49.756 --> 0:31:52.636
<v Speaker 2>mother who her kids have now grown and gone off

0:31:52.676 --> 0:31:55.036
<v Speaker 2>to college, and she's suddenly an empty nester. She's like,

0:31:55.036 --> 0:31:57.116
<v Speaker 2>for the last twenty years, I've been a mother, So

0:31:57.316 --> 0:31:59.756
<v Speaker 2>you know, like I am still now, but in what way?

0:31:59.796 --> 0:32:02.036
<v Speaker 2>You know, it feels so different. And so we all

0:32:02.076 --> 0:32:04.196
<v Speaker 2>can think of these inflection points that we have in

0:32:04.196 --> 0:32:06.756
<v Speaker 2>our life where we're kind of mourning the loss of

0:32:06.756 --> 0:32:10.316
<v Speaker 2>a previous identity, or there's this trans from someone that

0:32:10.316 --> 0:32:12.316
<v Speaker 2>we thought we were to this new stage or this

0:32:12.356 --> 0:32:15.276
<v Speaker 2>new chapter. There is always going to be some part

0:32:15.316 --> 0:32:17.476
<v Speaker 2>of greeting that is part of that. And you know,

0:32:17.476 --> 0:32:19.036
<v Speaker 2>if your life is not going to look the same,

0:32:19.116 --> 0:32:21.636
<v Speaker 2>then that I don't think. I don't think it's reasonable

0:32:21.676 --> 0:32:23.356
<v Speaker 2>to tell people we just don't feel that way, you know,

0:32:23.396 --> 0:32:25.396
<v Speaker 2>like that's a natural part of being human.

0:32:25.316 --> 0:32:29.316
<v Speaker 1>Right, especially if it's constituted a part of your self worth,

0:32:29.396 --> 0:32:30.316
<v Speaker 1>your self identity.

0:32:30.796 --> 0:32:33.276
<v Speaker 2>But I do think there's an effective way to think

0:32:33.276 --> 0:32:35.196
<v Speaker 2>about it, or maybe some useful things that you can

0:32:35.236 --> 0:32:38.836
<v Speaker 2>do that don't necessarily remove it from your life, that feeling,

0:32:39.116 --> 0:32:42.196
<v Speaker 2>but maybe lessen the blow or give you an effective

0:32:42.236 --> 0:32:45.156
<v Speaker 2>way to move forward. So, in the case of the

0:32:45.156 --> 0:32:47.876
<v Speaker 2>military example, I'm a soldier for a long time, I've

0:32:47.876 --> 0:32:50.756
<v Speaker 2>become a civilian. What am I now? Well, you may

0:32:50.796 --> 0:32:54.036
<v Speaker 2>not still be a soldier, but you could be the

0:32:54.156 --> 0:32:56.236
<v Speaker 2>kind of person who falls through on their mission. You

0:32:56.276 --> 0:32:58.996
<v Speaker 2>could be a good teammate, you could be the type

0:32:58.996 --> 0:33:02.156
<v Speaker 2>of person who is reliable. And these are all qualities

0:33:02.196 --> 0:33:04.276
<v Speaker 2>that were part of your life as a soldier and

0:33:04.316 --> 0:33:06.276
<v Speaker 2>they can still be part of your life now as

0:33:06.316 --> 0:33:08.276
<v Speaker 2>a civilian. And so I think that's one of the

0:33:08.276 --> 0:33:12.556
<v Speaker 2>first questions is which of the traits or pieces of

0:33:12.596 --> 0:33:16.516
<v Speaker 2>my previous identity are transferable into this new chapter. And

0:33:16.596 --> 0:33:19.116
<v Speaker 2>so that I feel like maybe the label is different,

0:33:19.396 --> 0:33:21.276
<v Speaker 2>but I don't have to lose who I am or

0:33:21.316 --> 0:33:23.516
<v Speaker 2>how I operate. You know, or what I consider to

0:33:23.556 --> 0:33:25.916
<v Speaker 2>be core parts of my personality, I can still find

0:33:25.916 --> 0:33:28.876
<v Speaker 2>outlets for those, So I think that is one effective

0:33:28.876 --> 0:33:30.996
<v Speaker 2>way to kind of manage that change.

0:33:31.756 --> 0:33:34.836
<v Speaker 1>So, James, you've shared so much valuable content with us today.

0:33:35.196 --> 0:33:39.076
<v Speaker 1>For the listener who's feeling energized to begin this new habit,

0:33:39.276 --> 0:33:40.716
<v Speaker 1>what's your advice to them?

0:33:41.196 --> 0:33:43.676
<v Speaker 2>I feel like sometimes the two best time frames to

0:33:43.716 --> 0:33:46.396
<v Speaker 2>focus on are either ten years or one hour. So

0:33:47.036 --> 0:33:50.156
<v Speaker 2>ten years is like, if you think about most of

0:33:50.196 --> 0:33:52.396
<v Speaker 2>the meaningful things you're trying to achieve in your life,

0:33:52.556 --> 0:33:55.236
<v Speaker 2>building a great marriage, raising kids that you're proud of,

0:33:56.156 --> 0:34:00.036
<v Speaker 2>growing a successful business, or launching a startup, writing a book,

0:34:00.076 --> 0:34:01.836
<v Speaker 2>getting in the best shape of your life, pick whatever

0:34:01.876 --> 0:34:05.276
<v Speaker 2>it is for you. These are almost always multi year things,

0:34:05.836 --> 0:34:08.316
<v Speaker 2>and so it's a big thing to try to accomplish.

0:34:08.396 --> 0:34:10.956
<v Speaker 2>But I think just think about that big fisher thing

0:34:11.036 --> 0:34:13.196
<v Speaker 2>you're trying to move toward, and then scale it down

0:34:13.196 --> 0:34:15.036
<v Speaker 2>and ask yourself, what can I do in the next

0:34:15.076 --> 0:34:17.156
<v Speaker 2>hour to move me toward where I want to be

0:34:17.196 --> 0:34:19.996
<v Speaker 2>in ten years? And if you just make it granular

0:34:20.076 --> 0:34:22.116
<v Speaker 2>like that and try to have one good step today,

0:34:22.596 --> 0:34:24.596
<v Speaker 2>you turn around in a year or two or five

0:34:24.716 --> 0:34:26.556
<v Speaker 2>or ten and probably be surprised by a lot of

0:34:26.556 --> 0:34:28.956
<v Speaker 2>the progress that you made. So in that way, I

0:34:28.956 --> 0:34:31.636
<v Speaker 2>think you can have a strategy where small habits are

0:34:31.676 --> 0:34:34.356
<v Speaker 2>not just about doing things that are small, they're also

0:34:34.356 --> 0:34:37.076
<v Speaker 2>about doing things that are powerful. And that's one of

0:34:37.076 --> 0:34:39.196
<v Speaker 2>the main reasons why I chose the phrase atomic habits.

0:34:39.196 --> 0:34:41.476
<v Speaker 2>It's not only tighty, it's also powerful.

0:35:13.236 --> 0:35:16.076
<v Speaker 1>Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my

0:35:16.156 --> 0:35:18.836
<v Speaker 1>conversation with James, don't miss the next two weeks of

0:35:18.876 --> 0:35:22.036
<v Speaker 1>A Slight Change of Plans. We're revisiting two of our

0:35:22.076 --> 0:35:25.316
<v Speaker 1>favorite episodes. The first one is an episode on the

0:35:25.356 --> 0:35:29.196
<v Speaker 1>science of making and keeping friends, and then a conversation

0:35:29.276 --> 0:35:32.436
<v Speaker 1>about how a small shift in mindset can make stress

0:35:32.476 --> 0:35:36.156
<v Speaker 1>work for us rather than against us. And I'm excited

0:35:36.156 --> 0:35:38.316
<v Speaker 1>to share that we're back with the new season of

0:35:38.316 --> 0:35:41.356
<v Speaker 1>A Slight Change of Plans beginning in early March, and

0:35:41.516 --> 0:35:44.076
<v Speaker 1>it is a goodie. We can't wait to share it

0:35:44.116 --> 0:35:57.516
<v Speaker 1>with you. See you soon. A Slight Change of Plans

0:35:57.636 --> 0:36:00.796
<v Speaker 1>is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker.

0:36:01.516 --> 0:36:05.156
<v Speaker 1>The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our

0:36:05.196 --> 0:36:09.996
<v Speaker 1>senior editor Kate Parkinson, Morgan, our producer Trisha Ba and

0:36:10.076 --> 0:36:14.836
<v Speaker 1>our sound engineer Andrew Vastola. Louis Scara wrote our delightful

0:36:14.876 --> 0:36:18.516
<v Speaker 1>theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocal. A

0:36:18.556 --> 0:36:21.556
<v Speaker 1>Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,

0:36:21.716 --> 0:36:25.156
<v Speaker 1>so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a

0:36:25.396 --> 0:36:28.596
<v Speaker 1>very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A

0:36:28.596 --> 0:36:31.756
<v Speaker 1>Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker