1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,396 --> 00:00:34,156 Speaker 2: Whatever outcomes you have or lifestyle you're enjoying right now, 3 00:00:34,676 --> 00:00:37,036 Speaker 2: it's kind of a byproduct of the habits you've been running, 4 00:00:37,116 --> 00:00:39,876 Speaker 2: and so if you want the outcome to change, it's 5 00:00:39,876 --> 00:00:41,516 Speaker 2: actually the habits that need to change. 6 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: Writer James Clear has helped millions of people achieve their 7 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 1: big goals through small shifts and behavior, and he believes 8 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:51,596 Speaker 1: that our habits can have a powerful impact on how 9 00:00:51,636 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 1: we see ourselves. 10 00:00:53,516 --> 00:00:57,596 Speaker 2: True behavior change is really identity change. Every action you 11 00:00:57,716 --> 00:00:59,596 Speaker 2: take is a vote for the type of person you 12 00:00:59,636 --> 00:01:02,956 Speaker 2: wish to become. So your habits are how you embody 13 00:01:03,356 --> 00:01:04,596 Speaker 2: a particular identity. 14 00:01:08,436 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: On today's epsiodisode, a tactical guide for actually reaching our goals. 15 00:01:14,796 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 1: I'm maya shucker and this is a slight change of plans, 16 00:01:17,836 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 17 00:01:20,316 --> 00:01:34,796 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. If you're like me, 18 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:39,116 Speaker 1: you often set ambvicious goals like wanting to meditate or 19 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 1: to cook more at home, but you struggle with execution, 20 00:01:43,396 --> 00:01:45,436 Speaker 1: like sure, I want to read more in the evening, 21 00:01:45,836 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 1: but when I sit down after work, Instagram is just 22 00:01:48,716 --> 00:01:51,996 Speaker 1: way more appealing. So this is where James comes in. 23 00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: He believes that tiny changes in our habits are the 24 00:01:55,676 --> 00:01:59,516 Speaker 1: key to reaching our long term goals. His best selling book, 25 00:01:59,596 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 1: Atomic Habits distills the strongest insights from academic research, including 26 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:07,916 Speaker 1: how to break bad habits and form good ones, and 27 00:02:08,156 --> 00:02:10,436 Speaker 1: he teaches us how to design our habits so they 28 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 1: actually stick. We started our conversation with the basics, So 29 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:18,636 Speaker 1: let's start off with what a habit is. How do 30 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:19,796 Speaker 1: you define habits? 31 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 2: Well, if you talk to an academic or researcher, they're 32 00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 2: probably going to say, hey, technically, a habit is a 33 00:02:25,076 --> 00:02:27,716 Speaker 2: behavior that's more or less automatic or mindless, So like 34 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:30,716 Speaker 2: brushing your teeth, or tying your shoes, or unplugging the 35 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:33,116 Speaker 2: toaster after each use, like things that you don't even 36 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 2: really think about, you know, usually it's thirty seconds or 37 00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 2: last two minutes or lastening. They're very quick, automatic routines. 38 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 2: But there is this interesting thing about habits, which is 39 00:02:43,316 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 2: that's not usually the way we talk about it culturally. 40 00:02:46,556 --> 00:02:49,316 Speaker 2: Like if I were to ask you, hey, what are 41 00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:51,556 Speaker 2: some habits you're trying to build, You're probably not going 42 00:02:51,636 --> 00:02:54,196 Speaker 2: to tell me something mindless and automatic. You're probably going 43 00:02:54,236 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 2: to say, I want to get in the habit of 44 00:02:55,796 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 2: writing every day, or I want to get in the 45 00:02:57,556 --> 00:02:59,676 Speaker 2: habit of going to the gym four days a week. 46 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 2: And I know what you mean when you say that, 47 00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 2: you mean I want it to be this regular practice, 48 00:03:05,036 --> 00:03:09,396 Speaker 2: this ritual that I repeat consistently. But that stuffs pretty effort. 49 00:03:09,396 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 2: Puone requires concentration and careful thought, like especially writing. You 50 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:15,236 Speaker 2: know it's ever going to be mindless, the way that 51 00:03:15,276 --> 00:03:16,276 Speaker 2: brushing your teeth might be. 52 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:20,276 Speaker 1: Why are good habits so hard to pick up and 53 00:03:20,756 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 1: bad habits so hard to kick? 54 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 2: What is the difference between a good habit of bad habit? Well, 55 00:03:25,676 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 2: most behaviors produce multiple outcomes across time, So broadly speaking, 56 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 2: let's say that a behavior has an immediate outcome and 57 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:36,516 Speaker 2: an ultimate outcome, like kind of the canonical example of 58 00:03:36,516 --> 00:03:39,516 Speaker 2: a bad habit is smoking a cigarette. Well, the immediate 59 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 2: outcome of smoking a cigarette might be that you reduce stress, 60 00:03:42,436 --> 00:03:44,676 Speaker 2: or that you get to connect with a coworker outside 61 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:47,916 Speaker 2: the office, or many other things that we often would 62 00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 2: say serve you in some way or serve some need 63 00:03:50,076 --> 00:03:52,796 Speaker 2: that you might have. It's only the ultimate outcome of 64 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:55,396 Speaker 2: continuing to smoke for ten or twenty years or whatever 65 00:03:55,516 --> 00:03:59,036 Speaker 2: that is negative. Good habits are often the reverse, Like 66 00:03:59,116 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 2: the immediate outcome of going to the gym for the 67 00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 2: first week is often unfavorable. Your body's sore, you feel 68 00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 2: foolish and stupid, You're worried that people are judging you 69 00:04:07,636 --> 00:04:11,276 Speaker 2: or think you're doing the exercises wrong. It's only the 70 00:04:11,356 --> 00:04:14,396 Speaker 2: ultimate outcome of sticking to a good habit for a 71 00:04:14,476 --> 00:04:16,796 Speaker 2: year or two or three that you get the results 72 00:04:16,836 --> 00:04:19,236 Speaker 2: that you want. And so I think my summary of 73 00:04:19,276 --> 00:04:20,596 Speaker 2: what is a good habit and what is a bad 74 00:04:20,596 --> 00:04:23,676 Speaker 2: habit is that the cost of your good habits is 75 00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:25,956 Speaker 2: in the present, the cost of your bad habits is 76 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 2: in the future. 77 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 1: One of the things that I studied during my POSTOC 78 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 1: in cognitive neuroscience is temporal discounting. And I think, you know, 79 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 1: there's lots of reasons why it's really hard to invest 80 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 1: in good habits, But in addition to the rewards of 81 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:43,796 Speaker 1: the good habits not being salient in the moment, we 82 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:46,556 Speaker 1: also do discount the value of future rewards in a 83 00:04:46,596 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 1: pretty significant way. So even if we're told intellectually, okay, 84 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 1: this thing is going to pay off, our brains are 85 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:54,316 Speaker 1: wired it's such that we just don't assign the same 86 00:04:54,436 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 1: value to those future rewards versus the present day ones. 87 00:04:57,236 --> 00:04:58,876 Speaker 2: Sure, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, But 88 00:04:58,876 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 2: my understanding of it is that for most of human 89 00:05:01,756 --> 00:05:05,516 Speaker 2: history we evolved in what was roughly an immediate return environment. 90 00:05:05,676 --> 00:05:07,996 Speaker 2: So your ancestors saw a storm on the horizon, they 91 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 2: take shelter. Now that gives them in a media benefit. 92 00:05:10,236 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 2: They need a meal, they forage for berries in the bush, 93 00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:16,156 Speaker 2: that gives them an immediate benefit. And so our paleolithic 94 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:19,116 Speaker 2: prehistoric brains are largely the hardware that is the same 95 00:05:19,156 --> 00:05:21,156 Speaker 2: as it has been for the last fifty thousand years. 96 00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:23,756 Speaker 2: Grew up in an environment like that, or we're evolved 97 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 2: in an environment like that, and then now in modern 98 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:30,396 Speaker 2: society we live, in many ways in a delayed return environment. 99 00:05:30,716 --> 00:05:32,556 Speaker 2: You go to work now so you can get paid 100 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:35,116 Speaker 2: in two weeks. You study now so you can graduate 101 00:05:35,156 --> 00:05:37,756 Speaker 2: in four years. You save for retirement now so that 102 00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:40,596 Speaker 2: you can retire in two decades, and so a lot 103 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 2: of the behaviors, a lot of the habits we want 104 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 2: to build, have extreme temporal discounting going on. It's not 105 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 2: even just like a day or two from now, it's 106 00:05:48,996 --> 00:05:52,276 Speaker 2: many years from now, and we're not wired to work 107 00:05:52,276 --> 00:05:52,636 Speaker 2: that way. 108 00:05:53,556 --> 00:05:56,356 Speaker 1: Can you say more about why it's important that we're 109 00:05:56,396 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: so intentional about how we build our habits. 110 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:02,956 Speaker 2: So first reason is your brain is building habits all 111 00:06:02,996 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 2: the time, whether you think about it or not. So 112 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 2: if you're going to be creating habits anyway, it benefits 113 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:10,916 Speaker 2: you to understand and what the process is and how 114 00:06:10,916 --> 00:06:13,196 Speaker 2: it works so that you can design it to your 115 00:06:13,196 --> 00:06:16,036 Speaker 2: benefit rather than to your detriment. I think a lot 116 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 2: of people feel like they're the victim of their habits. 117 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:19,676 Speaker 2: Oh I did that, I didn't even realize that, or oh, 118 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:21,596 Speaker 2: my habits are kind of happening to me. If you 119 00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 2: understand how it works, now you don't have to be 120 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:25,756 Speaker 2: the victim of your habits. You can be the architect 121 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:28,796 Speaker 2: of them. And as far as I can tell, you 122 00:06:28,796 --> 00:06:31,836 Speaker 2: can only effectively direct your attention toward one thing at 123 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 2: a time. The more that you can figure out how 124 00:06:34,436 --> 00:06:36,436 Speaker 2: to offload stuff and not have to think about it, 125 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 2: the more that you kind of have operations going on 126 00:06:39,636 --> 00:06:41,876 Speaker 2: automatically in the background, and you can now direct your 127 00:06:41,876 --> 00:06:44,716 Speaker 2: attention towards something else. If you had to think carefully 128 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:47,396 Speaker 2: about how to tie your shoes every time you did it, 129 00:06:47,516 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 2: or how to brush your teeth every time you did it, 130 00:06:49,756 --> 00:06:51,916 Speaker 2: or where the bread is and the pantry every time 131 00:06:51,916 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 2: you grabbed for it. I mean, an individual day would 132 00:06:54,756 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 2: become very cumbersome. 133 00:06:56,236 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 1: By the way. Given my husband, Jimmy, I actually am 134 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:01,236 Speaker 1: searching for where the bread is every day in the country. 135 00:07:02,516 --> 00:07:04,476 Speaker 2: Jimmy, if you're listening to this, stop moving to bread. 136 00:07:04,796 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 1: I know, just keep it in one damn place. 137 00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:09,836 Speaker 2: Okay, But yeah, you get that's the idea, you know, 138 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:11,996 Speaker 2: like your brain wants to do that so that you 139 00:07:12,036 --> 00:07:14,636 Speaker 2: can more smoothly get through the day and focus on 140 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 2: some of the other demands of life. 141 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:19,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. You talk about the difference in your book between 142 00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:22,996 Speaker 1: goals and systems. What do you mean by this? 143 00:07:23,876 --> 00:07:26,796 Speaker 2: So your goal is your desired outcome, the target, the 144 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 2: thing you're shooting for. Your system is the collection of 145 00:07:30,236 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 2: habits that you follow each day. So almost by definition, 146 00:07:34,516 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 2: your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your current results. 147 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:42,356 Speaker 2: Whatever outcomes you have or lifestyle you're enjoying or not 148 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:45,316 Speaker 2: enjoying right now, it's kind of a byproduct of the 149 00:07:45,316 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 2: habits you've been running or the system you've been following 150 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:51,556 Speaker 2: for the last six months, year, two years. And so 151 00:07:51,836 --> 00:07:54,476 Speaker 2: if you want the outcome to change, it's actually the 152 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:57,516 Speaker 2: habits that mean to change. And this doesn't mean that 153 00:07:57,556 --> 00:07:59,836 Speaker 2: goals are useless, like I actually think goals are really 154 00:07:59,836 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 2: helpful for setting a sense of direction, gaining clarity, figuring 155 00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:07,356 Speaker 2: out what to optimize for. And I am someone who's 156 00:08:07,436 --> 00:08:09,276 Speaker 2: very goal oriented, so in a lot of ways, I 157 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:11,516 Speaker 2: say all this stuff as a reminder to myself to 158 00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:13,316 Speaker 2: try to focus a little bit more on the habits 159 00:08:13,316 --> 00:08:15,156 Speaker 2: and the system and a little bit less on the 160 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:16,396 Speaker 2: outcome and the goal. 161 00:08:17,596 --> 00:08:20,876 Speaker 1: I also think that when we engage with the kind 162 00:08:20,876 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 1: of system that we want to build around us to 163 00:08:23,796 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 1: achieve the goal, it actually has a nice sobering effect 164 00:08:26,116 --> 00:08:29,196 Speaker 1: on the goal itself. So in a bubble, it's really 165 00:08:29,196 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 1: easy to think audaciously, like incredibly ambitiously about the goal 166 00:08:33,236 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 1: you're trying to achieve. But when you pressure test it 167 00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: in the context of a system, all of a sudden, 168 00:08:39,516 --> 00:08:41,996 Speaker 1: the practical realities of how it is you're actually going 169 00:08:42,036 --> 00:08:44,436 Speaker 1: to achieve that goal come into the light, and you 170 00:08:44,516 --> 00:08:47,236 Speaker 1: might think to yourself, hmm, I might need a slightly 171 00:08:47,276 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 1: more modest goal at least this time around. And that's 172 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: not to say don't be ambitious, but that pressure testing 173 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 1: is actually critical so that you don't feel that you're 174 00:08:54,876 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 1: constantly failing or just set moonshots that you have no 175 00:08:58,036 --> 00:09:00,116 Speaker 1: chance of reaching when it comes to day to day reality. 176 00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:03,156 Speaker 2: I actually think it's a beautiful point. It's really wise 177 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:04,836 Speaker 2: of you to bring it up. A lot of the time, 178 00:09:04,876 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 2: when I'm thinking about building my business, the first question 179 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 2: that I feel like you should ask is how do 180 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:13,036 Speaker 2: I want to spend my days? And then inside of 181 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:15,476 Speaker 2: that you can ask questions like how could I grow 182 00:09:15,476 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 2: the business more effectively, how can we reach more people? 183 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:20,036 Speaker 2: How can we make a bigger impact. But a lot 184 00:09:20,036 --> 00:09:22,196 Speaker 2: of entrepreneurs start by asking how can we make the 185 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:25,356 Speaker 2: most money possible? And I feel like that's a very 186 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:26,996 Speaker 2: bad way to start, because you end up with a 187 00:09:26,996 --> 00:09:28,596 Speaker 2: bunch of options that are not the way that you 188 00:09:28,596 --> 00:09:30,796 Speaker 2: want to live your days. And so to your point 189 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 2: about dreaming ambitiously, people will often come up with goals 190 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:37,316 Speaker 2: that they have for themselves, but then when they have 191 00:09:37,396 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 2: to start implementing that or thinking about the system, they realize, oh, 192 00:09:40,316 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 2: this isn't how I want to spend my time. Yeah, 193 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 2: you know, this isn't what I want to be doing. 194 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:45,516 Speaker 2: And what you find is that a lot of the 195 00:09:45,516 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 2: people you're jealous of, or the results that you're envious of, 196 00:09:49,356 --> 00:09:51,196 Speaker 2: a lot of the things that you kind of wish. Oh, well, 197 00:09:51,196 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 2: you know what if I had what they had. You 198 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:55,636 Speaker 2: don't want to do what is required. You're not even 199 00:09:55,676 --> 00:09:57,596 Speaker 2: interested in living that life. You know, there are many 200 00:09:57,636 --> 00:10:00,436 Speaker 2: things like sometimes I I'll talk to some of my 201 00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:03,436 Speaker 2: entrepreneur friends and just say something like, whatever the optimal 202 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:05,436 Speaker 2: way is to make money, you probably don't even want 203 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 2: to do that. Like, you probably don't even want to 204 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 2: make the most money because it's a lifestyle. It's completely 205 00:10:09,796 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 2: unrelated to how you want to be spending your time, 206 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:14,716 Speaker 2: and you could transfer that into pretty much any domain 207 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:15,516 Speaker 2: in life. 208 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:18,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I really like that. And I think, look, 209 00:10:18,396 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 1: some of us have the luxury of thinking how do 210 00:10:20,396 --> 00:10:22,396 Speaker 1: I want to spend my days? Others of us don't 211 00:10:22,396 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 1: have that luxury, and we just have so many demands 212 00:10:25,676 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: on our time and our resources. And so the reason 213 00:10:28,876 --> 00:10:30,756 Speaker 1: why it's good to engage with systems at the outset 214 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 1: of goal pursuit is that there will just be natural 215 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 1: constraints and limitations on imagine single mom of three working 216 00:10:36,596 --> 00:10:38,956 Speaker 1: two shifts to make ends meet. They need to set 217 00:10:38,996 --> 00:10:41,476 Speaker 1: reasonable goals given the demands on their time. So it's 218 00:10:41,596 --> 00:10:44,436 Speaker 1: useful no matter what your starting point is. So you've 219 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: convinced us that systems are important. I mean, they're really 220 00:10:47,396 --> 00:10:49,636 Speaker 1: the driver of whether or not we achieve our goals. 221 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: Can you tell us, James, about the four elements of 222 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 1: habit formation, and then we can talk about how to 223 00:10:56,156 --> 00:10:58,516 Speaker 1: try to optimize given those elements. 224 00:10:58,996 --> 00:11:01,876 Speaker 2: Sure. So there's a much longer scientific discussion of the 225 00:11:01,996 --> 00:11:05,356 Speaker 2: cinnatomic habits, but the brief summary is that I like 226 00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:07,636 Speaker 2: to break a habit into four different stages, and I 227 00:11:07,636 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 2: think if you understand these four stage you understand how 228 00:11:10,156 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 2: habits work. So the first step is there's a queue. 229 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:14,956 Speaker 2: So there's something that you notice or gets your attention. 230 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:17,836 Speaker 2: So for example, you hear a siren, that's an ambulance 231 00:11:17,836 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 2: coming up from behind you. That's an auditory queue that 232 00:11:20,236 --> 00:11:22,036 Speaker 2: starts the habit of pulling to the side of the road. 233 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:24,556 Speaker 2: Or you see a plate of cookies on the counter 234 00:11:24,956 --> 00:11:26,796 Speaker 2: in the kitchen, that might be a visual queue that 235 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 2: starts the habit of eating a cookie. After the queue, 236 00:11:30,236 --> 00:11:32,716 Speaker 2: the second step is the craving. There's some kind of 237 00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:35,876 Speaker 2: interpretation that your brain makes about what's going on. So 238 00:11:36,436 --> 00:11:39,396 Speaker 2: you see the plate of cookies in the counter visual queue, 239 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:42,676 Speaker 2: your brain thinks, oh, that'll be sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable. 240 00:11:42,956 --> 00:11:45,756 Speaker 2: And so it's actually this moment of assigning a favorable 241 00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 2: meaning to the cookie that gives you this motivation, the urge, 242 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:52,756 Speaker 2: the desire to walk over, pick it up and take 243 00:11:52,756 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 2: a bite. So that's the third step the response, and 244 00:11:55,916 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 2: then finally there's a reward. Oh, it is in fact sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable. 245 00:12:00,836 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 2: So Q craving response reward, And you can kind of 246 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:07,316 Speaker 2: imagine those four stages like going around a clock Q 247 00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:11,116 Speaker 2: craving response reward, Q raving response reward. And the more 248 00:12:11,156 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 2: that you cycle around that clock, the tighter that feedback 249 00:12:13,996 --> 00:12:17,756 Speaker 2: loop becomes. The more that behaviors are preceded by a 250 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 2: reliable queue and followed by an enjoyable reward, the tighter 251 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:24,956 Speaker 2: the habit is, and the more ingrained and automatic it becomes. 252 00:12:25,636 --> 00:12:29,036 Speaker 2: And so that's kind of the very brief scientific description 253 00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:30,836 Speaker 2: of what's going on in your brain when you're building 254 00:12:30,836 --> 00:12:31,236 Speaker 2: a habit. 255 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, what if the queue is simply a thought, Like 256 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 1: for a lot of times, the queue is simply I 257 00:12:38,636 --> 00:12:42,436 Speaker 1: want jalapino kettle potato chips, And it's like, I don't 258 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:44,676 Speaker 1: really know if there's a physical que in my environment 259 00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:47,516 Speaker 1: or a particular context. It just that I know that 260 00:12:47,516 --> 00:12:50,636 Speaker 1: thing's delicious, and so my brain during the middle of 261 00:12:50,636 --> 00:12:51,876 Speaker 1: the day will just serve it up. 262 00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:56,116 Speaker 2: Yep. The answer to this is going to differ depending 263 00:12:56,116 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 2: on which researcher expert you talk to. For myself, I 264 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 2: don't know. Some people believe that internal cues are a 265 00:13:02,796 --> 00:13:07,876 Speaker 2: thing that they can arise spontaneously, and then that that 266 00:13:07,876 --> 00:13:10,796 Speaker 2: could somehow dry before it. I guess I'll just say 267 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that spontaneous thoughts exist. It seems as 268 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 2: if life is a very long, cascading chain of cause 269 00:13:17,636 --> 00:13:20,716 Speaker 2: and effect, and that every thought actually comes from somewhere, 270 00:13:20,796 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 2: even if you can't pin it down yourself. 271 00:13:23,636 --> 00:13:27,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no question, just from like a physics point 272 00:13:27,076 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 1: of view, that the thought about the kettle chips was 273 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:32,036 Speaker 1: preceded by something. But it does feel different to me 274 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:34,076 Speaker 1: when the queue is a plate of chocolatech of cookie 275 00:13:34,116 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 1: sitting on the counter, versus when the queue is a 276 00:13:37,116 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 1: flurry of subconscious thoughts that are then followed by wanting 277 00:13:40,156 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: the kettle chips. Because in that frame I feel like 278 00:13:43,636 --> 00:13:46,836 Speaker 1: I have less control over whether or not I get 279 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:49,036 Speaker 1: access to that queue. I don't even know what served 280 00:13:49,036 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 1: it up in the first place. It was just a 281 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:54,116 Speaker 1: random smattering of thoughts that unfold it in a particular sequence. 282 00:13:54,156 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 1: That's why it feels relevant. 283 00:13:55,756 --> 00:13:59,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, habits of thought seem to be very hard to interrupt, 284 00:13:59,636 --> 00:14:01,596 Speaker 2: you know. It's like, if this is bubbling up for me, 285 00:14:01,636 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 2: how do I fix this habit where all of a sudden, 286 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:06,036 Speaker 2: I feel like I have this urge to do something 287 00:14:06,116 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 2: or to eat something, or to ruminate on something. And 288 00:14:09,236 --> 00:14:11,236 Speaker 2: I will say that I don't have a great answer 289 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:13,716 Speaker 2: to that. It's not like saying, hey, if you don't 290 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:15,796 Speaker 2: want to eat more peanut butter, let's just keep jars 291 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:17,756 Speaker 2: of peanut butter out of the house, exact because now 292 00:14:17,796 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 2: there's a lot of friction between you and the action, right. 293 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:25,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, those neurons are inside your damn head. Can't run 294 00:14:25,116 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 1: away from them, folks can't lock them up. 295 00:14:26,956 --> 00:14:29,916 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And so it's a very tricky thing and 296 00:14:29,956 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 2: I don't know that I have a good answer to it. 297 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 1: After the break, James teaches us how we can build 298 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:39,356 Speaker 1: habits that actually stick. We also discuss how our identity 299 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 1: can shape our habits, and how our habits can shape 300 00:14:42,076 --> 00:14:48,636 Speaker 1: our identity. We'll be back in a moment with a 301 00:14:48,636 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 1: slight change of plants. Let's talk about how we can 302 00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:04,276 Speaker 1: make good habits stick. Talk to me about the four 303 00:15:04,356 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: laws of habit building, and then for each one, I'd 304 00:15:06,836 --> 00:15:08,236 Speaker 1: love to ask you a couple of questions. 305 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 2: Sure, let me just give a brief summary and then 306 00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 2: we can dive in. If you want a habit to stick, 307 00:15:13,156 --> 00:15:15,796 Speaker 2: there are basically four things that you want to happen. 308 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 2: So you want the cues of your good habits to 309 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 2: be obvious, so the first laws to make it obvious. 310 00:15:21,276 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 2: You want the craving to be attractive, to be compelling, 311 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 2: so the second laws to make it attractive. The more 312 00:15:26,516 --> 00:15:28,996 Speaker 2: compelling or enticing or motivating a habit is, the more 313 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 2: likely are going to feel like you want to do it. 314 00:15:31,836 --> 00:15:34,356 Speaker 2: The third laws you want to make it easy. The easier, 315 00:15:34,476 --> 00:15:38,156 Speaker 2: more convenient, frictionalless simple habit is, the more likely it 316 00:15:38,276 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 2: is to be performed. And then the fourth and final 317 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 2: laws you want to make it satisfying. The more satisfying 318 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:45,636 Speaker 2: or enjoyable habit is, the more rewarding or pleasurable it 319 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 2: is the more likely you are to feel compelled to 320 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 2: do it in the future. So if you're sitting there 321 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:53,436 Speaker 2: and you're thinking, no, I have this habit, I keep 322 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:56,076 Speaker 2: procrastinating on it. I just can't quite seem to get started. 323 00:15:56,636 --> 00:15:59,596 Speaker 2: You can just go through those four laws and ask yourself, 324 00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 2: how can I make the behavior more obvious? How can 325 00:16:02,476 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 2: I make it more attractive? How can I make it easier? 326 00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 2: How can I make it more satisfying? And the answers 327 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 2: to those questions will reveal different steps that you can take. 328 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:14,236 Speaker 1: So let's start with how we can make things more obvious. 329 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:16,116 Speaker 1: What are some examples? 330 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:18,276 Speaker 2: I think one interesting thing you can do is just 331 00:16:18,316 --> 00:16:19,996 Speaker 2: hold a habit in the back of your mind that 332 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:22,676 Speaker 2: you're thinking about building, and then walk into the rooms 333 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:25,156 Speaker 2: where you spend most of your time each day and 334 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:28,556 Speaker 2: look around and ask yourself, what is this space designed 335 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 2: to encourage? What behaviors are obvious here? What behaviors are 336 00:16:32,076 --> 00:16:35,436 Speaker 2: easy here? And you're going to start to notice different things. So, 337 00:16:35,556 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 2: for example, I had a reader who wanted to practice 338 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:40,756 Speaker 2: guitar more frequently. He would go once a week and 339 00:16:40,796 --> 00:16:42,476 Speaker 2: then he would not practice, and he'd show up with 340 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 2: the next lesson and his instructor would say, you haven't practiced, 341 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 2: and so he took his guitar out of the case, 342 00:16:48,836 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 2: put it on a stand in the middle of the 343 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 2: living room. He would pass it thirty times a day, 344 00:16:53,156 --> 00:16:55,036 Speaker 2: and so he's more likely to pick it up and play. 345 00:16:55,316 --> 00:16:57,916 Speaker 2: So get you get the idea right, which is you're 346 00:16:57,916 --> 00:16:59,476 Speaker 2: just trying to make the thing that you want to 347 00:16:59,516 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 2: do more obvious, and you're trying to make the thing 348 00:17:02,036 --> 00:17:04,716 Speaker 2: you don't want to do less obvious and increase friction there. 349 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:07,236 Speaker 1: What do we do in situations where we really don't 350 00:17:07,276 --> 00:17:10,556 Speaker 1: have a lot of control over our environment. This actually 351 00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:14,476 Speaker 1: became quite salient during quarantine for me. So I remember 352 00:17:14,916 --> 00:17:18,156 Speaker 1: I was working basically from my kitchen, and so there 353 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:21,916 Speaker 1: was no ability for me to make something like obvious 354 00:17:21,956 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 1: you're not obvious in that context or as much harder too. 355 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:27,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what if we can't do something about this? 356 00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: So COVID is a very easy example that you just mentioned. 357 00:17:29,876 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 2: You know a lot of people suddenly they're working from 358 00:17:31,476 --> 00:17:33,476 Speaker 2: the kitchen or from their living room. Now I can 359 00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:35,916 Speaker 2: snack all day or turn on TV anytime or whatever. 360 00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:38,276 Speaker 2: So this is a strategy. It comes from BJ Fogg, 361 00:17:38,276 --> 00:17:40,516 Speaker 2: Professor at Stanford, and he's got this kind of tiny 362 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:43,156 Speaker 2: habits method. I refer to it in atomic habits as 363 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:45,636 Speaker 2: habit stacking, because you're going to stack your new habit 364 00:17:45,676 --> 00:17:48,156 Speaker 2: on top of an old one. But the idea is 365 00:17:48,236 --> 00:17:51,036 Speaker 2: just that in FOG's insight, which I think is really smart, 366 00:17:51,516 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 2: is that it's often easier to stick to a new 367 00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:55,956 Speaker 2: habit if you chain it or link it to something 368 00:17:55,956 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 2: that you just did before. So let's take your example 369 00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:01,356 Speaker 2: of working in the kitchen. Maybe something you already do 370 00:18:01,436 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 2: each morning is that you make a cup of coffee, 371 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:06,756 Speaker 2: and maybe there's some new productive behavior that you want 372 00:18:06,756 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 2: to do so that you get into the swing of 373 00:18:08,276 --> 00:18:10,076 Speaker 2: your day. You know, just say work on the most 374 00:18:10,116 --> 00:18:12,436 Speaker 2: important past, just to use a general thing, but it 375 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:14,116 Speaker 2: could be more specific if you know what it is 376 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:17,156 Speaker 2: for your job. So your habit stack could be something 377 00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 2: like I walk into the kitchen, I make my cup 378 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 2: of coffee. After I pour my cup of coffee, I 379 00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:25,156 Speaker 2: will immediately start working on the most important thing. And 380 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:27,836 Speaker 2: you give yourself this order of events that things always 381 00:18:27,836 --> 00:18:29,596 Speaker 2: happen in the same way, and so you kind of 382 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:32,476 Speaker 2: try to link the habit to a specific queue in 383 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:33,196 Speaker 2: that environment. 384 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:37,356 Speaker 1: Let's talk about making things attractive. So what does this 385 00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:40,316 Speaker 1: mean in the context of habit formation. I'm assuming you 386 00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:42,276 Speaker 1: mean I should just bring a life size poster like 387 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:43,956 Speaker 1: David Beckham with me everywhere I go. 388 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 2: Honestly, though like that could do. It depends on what 389 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:50,516 Speaker 2: the habit is. So I think my current answer to 390 00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 2: this I wish I had written this in the book, 391 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:57,156 Speaker 2: but I didn't. It is worth asking yourself what would 392 00:18:57,156 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 2: this look like if it was fun. One of the 393 00:18:59,556 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 2: most common New Year's resolutions is to exercise more. And 394 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 2: I think that a lot of people are exercising or 395 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:07,636 Speaker 2: going to the gym in January just because they feel 396 00:19:07,676 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 2: like they should go to the gym, or that like 397 00:19:09,596 --> 00:19:13,956 Speaker 2: society wants them to or they're expected to. And there 398 00:19:13,996 --> 00:19:17,356 Speaker 2: are many ways to live an active lifestyle. Some people 399 00:19:17,396 --> 00:19:19,556 Speaker 2: like lifting weights like a bodybuilder, and that's great, but 400 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:21,876 Speaker 2: you don't have to do that. You could kayak or 401 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 2: rock climb, or go for a run or do yoga. 402 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:26,396 Speaker 2: Like we could come up with an almost infinite list 403 00:19:26,516 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 2: of what that might look like, and you should choose 404 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:32,276 Speaker 2: the version of that habit that is most fun to you. 405 00:19:32,876 --> 00:19:36,116 Speaker 2: And this doesn't mean that every habit in your life 406 00:19:36,156 --> 00:19:37,836 Speaker 2: is going to feel like going to a concert. Right, 407 00:19:37,836 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that like your habits are going to 408 00:19:39,356 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 2: feel like the most fun thing that you do. But 409 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 2: most things in life, there may not be like a 410 00:19:45,276 --> 00:19:47,556 Speaker 2: thousand ways to do it, but there's almost always more 411 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 2: than one way, and you can almost always find a 412 00:19:50,516 --> 00:19:53,596 Speaker 2: version that is more fun than the default. And so 413 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 2: I think you should start there. 414 00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:58,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one thing we can suffer from I 415 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:01,156 Speaker 1: certainly suffer from this is having a bit of a 416 00:20:01,276 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 1: purity complex around building new habits or certain behaviors. So 417 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: one of my goals is to just eat more vegetables. 418 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 1: Team I'm a vegetari, so you know, it's a pretty 419 00:20:10,676 --> 00:20:12,876 Speaker 1: pretty substantial fraction of what I should be eating, but 420 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 1: I don't. And so my goal is to eat salad 421 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:17,956 Speaker 1: more regularly. But I had a purity complex about it. 422 00:20:17,996 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 1: So it's like, well, if I'm going to eat salad, 423 00:20:19,436 --> 00:20:21,236 Speaker 1: then I should get the healthy dressing and I should 424 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 1: be really sparing in terms of the toppings salad toppers 425 00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:26,236 Speaker 1: I put on it. And my husband kind of changed 426 00:20:26,316 --> 00:20:29,236 Speaker 1: my mind about this. He like makes his salad a 427 00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: party every day. There's like a party inside his bowl, James, 428 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:36,036 Speaker 1: and so I have become very expensive. In my definition 429 00:20:36,076 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 1: of what a salad topper is, it could be crushed 430 00:20:37,836 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 1: of potato chips. The other day, I put Snyder's honey 431 00:20:41,476 --> 00:20:44,716 Speaker 1: mustard pretzels on top of my salad and I just 432 00:20:44,756 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 1: go like I go to town with the salad. And 433 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:50,476 Speaker 1: what's remarkable, since implementing this new rule at work this 434 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:53,556 Speaker 1: whole year, I basically had salad for lunch like ninety 435 00:20:53,596 --> 00:20:55,756 Speaker 1: percent of the time. And so that was a really 436 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:58,156 Speaker 1: good lesson for me, which is, if you're trying to 437 00:20:58,236 --> 00:21:01,996 Speaker 1: introduce a new thing, you don't have to reach for 438 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:06,476 Speaker 1: perfection or feel like it's a painful, arduous process, and 439 00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 1: therefore it's virtuous. There's some middle ground there, and it 440 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:11,716 Speaker 1: actually led my habit to stick because I do look 441 00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:15,276 Speaker 1: forward to I look forward to lunch now like a 442 00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:16,716 Speaker 1: lunch that includes salad. 443 00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:20,676 Speaker 2: That's a great example. There is so much truth to 444 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:23,116 Speaker 2: the fact that you should try to do things in 445 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:26,036 Speaker 2: the beginning that feel good and are enjoyable, and if 446 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:28,956 Speaker 2: you can find a way to make it enjoyable, then 447 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:31,756 Speaker 2: you have a reason to keep repeating it. And now 448 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:34,916 Speaker 2: that you're having salid ninety percent of days, sure, maybe 449 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 2: there are little ways that you can start to optimize it. 450 00:21:37,356 --> 00:21:39,396 Speaker 2: I think you bring up a good point about there's 451 00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:41,556 Speaker 2: a certain type of person that has this mindset where 452 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:43,356 Speaker 2: it's like for it to be virtuous or for it 453 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:45,516 Speaker 2: to count, it has to be perfect, or it has 454 00:21:45,556 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 2: to be done you know, really well. 455 00:21:47,196 --> 00:21:49,316 Speaker 1: Or that or very hard in pa. 456 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:51,516 Speaker 2: I need to feel like I'm suffering otherwise it doesn't 457 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 2: count yep. And that's a mindset that I do think, 458 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 2: even if it has served you in your life where 459 00:21:56,156 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 2: you found it useful in many ways, which I think 460 00:21:57,916 --> 00:21:59,276 Speaker 2: a lot of the people who believe it because they 461 00:21:59,276 --> 00:22:02,556 Speaker 2: feel like it's served them, it's worth releasing that for 462 00:22:02,596 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 2: a little bit and at least experimenting and seeing what 463 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 2: it might be like for it to be fun for 464 00:22:06,796 --> 00:22:08,876 Speaker 2: a little bit and to get the habit established and 465 00:22:09,356 --> 00:22:11,396 Speaker 2: you can scale it up and turn into something more. 466 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:14,276 Speaker 2: And this can take many different shapes, but I do 467 00:22:14,316 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 2: think that this is a very deep truth about habits, 468 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:19,796 Speaker 2: which is a habit must be established before it can 469 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 2: be improved. You know, it has to become the standard 470 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 2: in your life before you can scale it up and 471 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:25,956 Speaker 2: optimize it and turn it into all the things that 472 00:22:25,956 --> 00:22:28,356 Speaker 2: you want it to be. And so you figured out 473 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:31,476 Speaker 2: how to get salads established as part of your daily routine, 474 00:22:31,796 --> 00:22:35,636 Speaker 2: and you made it fun, and once it was established, great, 475 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:37,796 Speaker 2: then there were so many ways that you could figure 476 00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:39,876 Speaker 2: out how to make it healthier. But you try to 477 00:22:39,916 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 2: figure out how do I get this going first? And 478 00:22:41,796 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 2: I think that's a great lens to use. There's also 479 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 2: another question that I think is worth just kind of 480 00:22:46,516 --> 00:22:49,556 Speaker 2: thinking about or holding on to, which is a lot 481 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:51,916 Speaker 2: of people start by when they think about the habits 482 00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:53,756 Speaker 2: they want to build. I think especially this is a 483 00:22:53,756 --> 00:22:56,716 Speaker 2: pitfall for ambitious people or talented people who you know, 484 00:22:56,796 --> 00:22:58,916 Speaker 2: really when you start sitting her down and thinking about 485 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:01,836 Speaker 2: what I want to achieve, your natural inclinations to be, like, 486 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 2: what could I do on my best day? You know, 487 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 2: what would it look like if I was at peak performance? 488 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:07,956 Speaker 2: What would it look like if I was really firing 489 00:23:07,956 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 2: on all cylinders. You start to get excited about who 490 00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:15,396 Speaker 2: that future peak performance you could be, and instead, I 491 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 2: think it's almost better to ask yourself, what would I 492 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 2: stick to even on my bad days? 493 00:23:19,476 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 1: Yeah? I really like that. 494 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:22,636 Speaker 2: What would I stick to on my worst day? And 495 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:25,356 Speaker 2: that becomes the baseline for the new habit. You know, 496 00:23:25,436 --> 00:23:27,276 Speaker 2: you're like, even when I don't feel like eating salad, 497 00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:28,836 Speaker 2: I'll probably eat this one that tastes really good and 498 00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:30,396 Speaker 2: has the potato chips on it, and it's like kind 499 00:23:30,396 --> 00:23:33,436 Speaker 2: of fun and exciting, and you can come up with 500 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 2: like what that might look like for me. For my 501 00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 2: writing habit, one of my objectives is just to write 502 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 2: one sentence a day. It's like, look, even when I'm 503 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 2: exhausted and the day has gone terribly and I haven't 504 00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 2: gotten anything done I wanted to get done, I can 505 00:23:44,476 --> 00:23:46,916 Speaker 2: write one sentence before I go to sleep. So figure 506 00:23:46,916 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: out what your baseline is for what you can stick 507 00:23:49,196 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 2: to even on the bad days, and then great, if 508 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:53,436 Speaker 2: you feel better, scale it up from there. But I 509 00:23:53,476 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 2: think your example is a nice way of seeing how 510 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:56,516 Speaker 2: that can work out. 511 00:23:57,316 --> 00:24:00,276 Speaker 1: I this also, you know, fits into your make it 512 00:24:00,356 --> 00:24:03,676 Speaker 1: easy bucket of habit formation. I love one of the 513 00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 1: stories that you talk about, which is a guy who 514 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 1: is trying to commit to going to the gym. 515 00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:11,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this reader, my name Mitch, and he's lost 516 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:13,276 Speaker 2: over one hundred pounds and now he's kept it off 517 00:24:13,276 --> 00:24:15,716 Speaker 2: for more than a decade. And when he first started 518 00:24:15,756 --> 00:24:18,196 Speaker 2: going to the gym, he had this strange little rule 519 00:24:18,196 --> 00:24:21,116 Speaker 2: for himself where for the first six weeks he wasn't 520 00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: allowed to stay for longer than five minutes, so he 521 00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:25,076 Speaker 2: would get in the car, drive to the gym, do 522 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 2: half an exercise, get back to the car, drive home. 523 00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:29,756 Speaker 2: He was mastering the art of showing up. He was 524 00:24:29,796 --> 00:24:32,316 Speaker 2: figuring out how to make it part of his daily routine, 525 00:24:32,316 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 2: how to make it fun or easy enough that he 526 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 2: would do it. And there's this great quote from Ed 527 00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 2: Latimer where he says, the heaviest weight at the gym 528 00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 2: is the front door. Like, there are a lot of 529 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 2: things in life that are like that. You know, the 530 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:45,596 Speaker 2: hardest step is the first. 531 00:24:45,316 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: One, absolutely, And then what about the fourth law of 532 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:51,276 Speaker 1: habit building making it satisfying? How is this different from 533 00:24:51,316 --> 00:24:53,956 Speaker 1: making something attractive? Is this more the residual feeling that 534 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:55,716 Speaker 1: you're left with after the experience. 535 00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:57,916 Speaker 2: No, it's a good question. They're definitely related. 536 00:24:57,956 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 1: You know. 537 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:02,156 Speaker 2: The make it attractive is often not exclusively, but often 538 00:25:02,236 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 2: it's about your expectation of what the payoff is going 539 00:25:05,436 --> 00:25:07,756 Speaker 2: to be. So it's the attractive part is usually about 540 00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 2: anticipation motivation, whereas the satisfying part is about the resolution 541 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:16,876 Speaker 2: of that anticipation. So making it attractive is like I 542 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:20,036 Speaker 2: expect this cookie to taste good. Making it satisfying is 543 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:23,756 Speaker 2: I just ate it, And it did in fact taste sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable. 544 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 1: Right. 545 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 2: But the point here that the kind of practical takeaway, 546 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:29,116 Speaker 2: and I refer to this in the book as the 547 00:25:29,116 --> 00:25:32,556 Speaker 2: cardinal rule of behavior change, which is behaviors that get 548 00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:37,036 Speaker 2: immediately rewarded get repeated, behaviors that get immediately punished get avoided. 549 00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:40,876 Speaker 2: And it is such a basic, simple idea as soon 550 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:43,996 Speaker 2: as you hear it stated. But all human beings like 551 00:25:44,076 --> 00:25:46,356 Speaker 2: to feel good. We all want to feel praised, to 552 00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:49,356 Speaker 2: feel rewarded, We all want to feel satisfied and to 553 00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 2: enjoy experiences in life. And so the more that your 554 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 2: habits can give you a positive emotion like that, the 555 00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:57,916 Speaker 2: more likely you are to repeat them in the future. 556 00:25:58,236 --> 00:26:00,396 Speaker 2: And we also, on the flip side, want to avoid 557 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:03,116 Speaker 2: things that have consequences that feel painful, that it cause 558 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:06,796 Speaker 2: you to suffer, that are unenjoyable. So the basic idea 559 00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:09,356 Speaker 2: here is how do I feel after I can lead 560 00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 2: the habit, And the more that you feel good or 561 00:26:11,716 --> 00:26:13,516 Speaker 2: enjoy it, the more likely are to show up again 562 00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:15,196 Speaker 2: in the future. So that's kind of the big picture 563 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 2: view of it. 564 00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:20,516 Speaker 1: This is why my absolute favorite number one habit building 565 00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:24,916 Speaker 1: strategy is temptation fundling, which is, you know, it was 566 00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 1: a concept created by my friend and former collaborator Katie Milkman, 567 00:26:28,676 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 1: and essentially all temptation bundling is you pair the undesirable thing. Right. 568 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:36,316 Speaker 1: Let's say you have to fold laundry with a desirable thing, 569 00:26:36,556 --> 00:26:38,596 Speaker 1: which in this case is of course listening to an 570 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:41,516 Speaker 1: episode of A Slight Change of Plans, right, And so 571 00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 1: you pair these two things, but really crucially you deny 572 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 1: yourself the ability to do the pleasurable thing outside of 573 00:26:48,076 --> 00:26:50,756 Speaker 1: the context of the undesirable activity. 574 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 2: Right. 575 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:53,156 Speaker 1: So if you're not doing laundry, then you're not listening 576 00:26:53,196 --> 00:26:55,676 Speaker 1: to your favorite episode of a podcast or a TV 577 00:26:55,716 --> 00:26:59,436 Speaker 1: show or whatnot. And I cannot tell you what a 578 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:02,956 Speaker 1: game changer this has been for me in my life. 579 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:05,756 Speaker 1: One of the biggest reasons that I was drawn to 580 00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 1: your work, James, and what I found so refreshing in 581 00:27:07,876 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 1: Atomic Habits is that you talk about habits in the 582 00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:12,236 Speaker 1: context of identity. 583 00:27:12,676 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 2: So we often talk about habits as mattering because of 584 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 2: the external results they'll get you. But I think the 585 00:27:19,236 --> 00:27:22,916 Speaker 2: real reason the habits matter is that every action you 586 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 2: take is a vote for the type of person you 587 00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:28,276 Speaker 2: wish to become. So your habits are how you embody 588 00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 2: a particular identity. So, for example, every morning that you 589 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:34,716 Speaker 2: make your bet, you embody the identity of someone who 590 00:27:34,756 --> 00:27:38,036 Speaker 2: is clean and organized. Every time that you study biology 591 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:40,956 Speaker 2: for twenty minutes on Tuesday night, you embody the identity 592 00:27:41,036 --> 00:27:45,316 Speaker 2: of someone who is studious. And individually these are small things, 593 00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:48,476 Speaker 2: but collectively it's like casting votes on this pile and 594 00:27:48,516 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 2: building up a body of evidence for being that kind 595 00:27:51,076 --> 00:27:53,996 Speaker 2: of person. And the first time that you go out 596 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:56,996 Speaker 2: and shoot a basketball for five minutes, you don't suddenly think, oh, 597 00:27:57,076 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 2: I'm a basketball player. But if you do that every 598 00:27:59,996 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 2: day for the next six months or year or two years, 599 00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:05,316 Speaker 2: at some point you kind of cross this invisible threshold 600 00:28:05,596 --> 00:28:08,196 Speaker 2: where you say, hey, being a basketball player must be 601 00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:09,796 Speaker 2: a big part of my life, Like that's kind of 602 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 2: part of who I am. And I think this is 603 00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:15,076 Speaker 2: ultimately where we're trying to get to, and this is 604 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 2: in atomic habits. I call this identity based habits, but 605 00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 2: it's basically this idea that true behavior change is really 606 00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 2: identity change. It's really getting you to shift the story 607 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,756 Speaker 2: about who you are and what's normal for you. And 608 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:31,316 Speaker 2: if you start to take pride in that aspect of 609 00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:33,836 Speaker 2: your story, if you start to believe I'm this kind 610 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:36,676 Speaker 2: of person who does this, it becomes a little easier 611 00:28:36,676 --> 00:28:39,596 Speaker 2: to stick to the behavior. And I think that's the deeper, 612 00:28:39,716 --> 00:28:41,876 Speaker 2: more meaningful reason to care about your habits and what 613 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:44,636 Speaker 2: they are, because they're shaping you every day. 614 00:28:44,956 --> 00:28:47,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love how subtle changes in the way 615 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:50,396 Speaker 1: that we frame things to ourselves or to others can 616 00:28:50,436 --> 00:28:52,556 Speaker 1: have a big impact on our behavior. So the whole 617 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:55,356 Speaker 1: research on identity priming which says that we act in 618 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 1: ways that align with our current identity or the identity 619 00:28:58,476 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 1: that we aspire to have, so it can use health reinforcing. 620 00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:04,596 Speaker 1: And you give the example of someone who's trying to 621 00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:07,716 Speaker 1: quit smoking cigarettes and they're offered a cigarette and one 622 00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:10,036 Speaker 1: person says, no thanks, I'm trying to quit, Okay, that 623 00:29:10,076 --> 00:29:13,356 Speaker 1: person's identity is of being someone who's trying to change 624 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:16,116 Speaker 1: versus someone who says no thanks, I'm not a smoker. 625 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,596 Speaker 1: They no longer identify as someone who smokes, and that 626 00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:23,316 Speaker 1: slight tweak in how we self identify can have a 627 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:25,436 Speaker 1: big impact on our subsequent decisions. 628 00:29:26,396 --> 00:29:28,676 Speaker 2: I think that behavior and beliefs are two way street. 629 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:31,676 Speaker 2: So you know, what you believe influences the way you act, 630 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:33,996 Speaker 2: and the way you act influence is what you think 631 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,996 Speaker 2: about yourself. And so that's why I often encourage people 632 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 2: start with, you know, one sales call or one push 633 00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:42,276 Speaker 2: up or one minute meditation like that action can help 634 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:44,916 Speaker 2: cast a boat for believing something new about yourself. Yeah, 635 00:29:44,956 --> 00:29:47,516 Speaker 2: but the example that you're giving here, you can see 636 00:29:47,516 --> 00:29:49,356 Speaker 2: how it works the other way as well. You know, 637 00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:53,036 Speaker 2: we all have beliefs and identities that serve us and 638 00:29:53,116 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 2: that hinder us. So things like I'm terrible remembering people's names, 639 00:29:56,676 --> 00:29:59,236 Speaker 2: I'm not good at directions, I have a sweet tooth. 640 00:29:59,676 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 2: These are all little stories that you tell yourself that 641 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:08,276 Speaker 2: reinforce a certain type of behavior. And progress often requires 642 00:30:08,356 --> 00:30:11,876 Speaker 2: unlearning as much as it requires learning. And so one 643 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:15,036 Speaker 2: of the big challenges with the behavior changes, can I 644 00:30:15,116 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 2: unlearn some of the identities that are no longer serving me? Yeah, 645 00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:20,876 Speaker 2: And so that's a tricky thing, and I think the 646 00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:23,036 Speaker 2: best way to do it is by taking small actions 647 00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:25,756 Speaker 2: that cast votes for this new identity that you want 648 00:30:25,796 --> 00:30:28,996 Speaker 2: to have and gradually let the new identity crowd out 649 00:30:29,076 --> 00:30:31,516 Speaker 2: the older one. But it's not a one time thing. 650 00:30:31,636 --> 00:30:33,436 Speaker 2: It's not a one day thing. It's a lifestyle. 651 00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 1: Yeah. 652 00:30:33,996 --> 00:30:36,276 Speaker 2: And the more that you can start to embrace that, 653 00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:37,836 Speaker 2: the more that you can start to foster and build 654 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:38,676 Speaker 2: these new identities. 655 00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:43,636 Speaker 1: It seems so appealing to tether your identity to your 656 00:30:43,636 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 1: behaviors because it is such a hugely motivating force. Right. 657 00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:49,716 Speaker 1: If you self identify as a runner, you're more likely 658 00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 1: to run. If you self identify as a writer, you're 659 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:54,116 Speaker 1: more likely to write. But it's a double edged sword, right, 660 00:30:54,196 --> 00:30:56,716 Speaker 1: because if we wrap our sense of self, our sense 661 00:30:56,756 --> 00:31:01,156 Speaker 1: is self worth so much in our habits, then if 662 00:31:01,196 --> 00:31:03,676 Speaker 1: you lose the ability to do something, it can be 663 00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 1: so destabilizing. Right. So let's imagine a woman who's been 664 00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:10,076 Speaker 1: a runner for the last ten years, self identifies as 665 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:12,836 Speaker 1: a runner, then has kids and endures some sort of 666 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:15,196 Speaker 1: injury as a result of her pregnancy that renders are 667 00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:19,196 Speaker 1: unable to run. Now you're not only mourning the loss 668 00:31:19,236 --> 00:31:21,996 Speaker 1: of running, but you're mourning the loss of yourself in 669 00:31:22,036 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: some more fundamental way. And so how do we think 670 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:27,156 Speaker 1: about that trade off so that the transitions in life. 671 00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:28,956 Speaker 1: I mean, the show is all about slight changes of 672 00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:33,236 Speaker 1: plan don't carry such a heavy burden. 673 00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 2: This is very common. I've heard about this from a 674 00:31:35,556 --> 00:31:37,516 Speaker 2: lot of readers since the book has come out. So 675 00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:39,796 Speaker 2: some other examples that are similar to what you're mentioning. 676 00:31:40,396 --> 00:31:42,636 Speaker 2: A person who identifies as a soldier. They've been in 677 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:45,116 Speaker 2: the military for many years, and then they leave and 678 00:31:45,156 --> 00:31:47,276 Speaker 2: they become a civilian. What am I now? I feel 679 00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:49,716 Speaker 2: like I lost my identity. I recently heard from a 680 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:52,636 Speaker 2: mother who her kids have now grown and gone off 681 00:31:52,676 --> 00:31:55,036 Speaker 2: to college, and she's suddenly an empty nester. She's like, 682 00:31:55,036 --> 00:31:57,116 Speaker 2: for the last twenty years, I've been a mother, So 683 00:31:57,316 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 2: you know, like I am still now, but in what way? 684 00:31:59,796 --> 00:32:02,036 Speaker 2: You know, it feels so different. And so we all 685 00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:04,196 Speaker 2: can think of these inflection points that we have in 686 00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:06,756 Speaker 2: our life where we're kind of mourning the loss of 687 00:32:06,756 --> 00:32:10,316 Speaker 2: a previous identity, or there's this trans from someone that 688 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:12,316 Speaker 2: we thought we were to this new stage or this 689 00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:15,276 Speaker 2: new chapter. There is always going to be some part 690 00:32:15,316 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 2: of greeting that is part of that. And you know, 691 00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:19,036 Speaker 2: if your life is not going to look the same, 692 00:32:19,116 --> 00:32:21,636 Speaker 2: then that I don't think. I don't think it's reasonable 693 00:32:21,676 --> 00:32:23,356 Speaker 2: to tell people we just don't feel that way, you know, 694 00:32:23,396 --> 00:32:25,396 Speaker 2: like that's a natural part of being human. 695 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:29,316 Speaker 1: Right, especially if it's constituted a part of your self worth, 696 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:30,316 Speaker 1: your self identity. 697 00:32:30,796 --> 00:32:33,276 Speaker 2: But I do think there's an effective way to think 698 00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:35,196 Speaker 2: about it, or maybe some useful things that you can 699 00:32:35,236 --> 00:32:38,836 Speaker 2: do that don't necessarily remove it from your life, that feeling, 700 00:32:39,116 --> 00:32:42,196 Speaker 2: but maybe lessen the blow or give you an effective 701 00:32:42,236 --> 00:32:45,156 Speaker 2: way to move forward. So, in the case of the 702 00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:47,876 Speaker 2: military example, I'm a soldier for a long time, I've 703 00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:50,756 Speaker 2: become a civilian. What am I now? Well, you may 704 00:32:50,796 --> 00:32:54,036 Speaker 2: not still be a soldier, but you could be the 705 00:32:54,156 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 2: kind of person who falls through on their mission. You 706 00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:58,996 Speaker 2: could be a good teammate, you could be the type 707 00:32:58,996 --> 00:33:02,156 Speaker 2: of person who is reliable. And these are all qualities 708 00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:04,276 Speaker 2: that were part of your life as a soldier and 709 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 2: they can still be part of your life now as 710 00:33:06,316 --> 00:33:08,276 Speaker 2: a civilian. And so I think that's one of the 711 00:33:08,276 --> 00:33:12,556 Speaker 2: first questions is which of the traits or pieces of 712 00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:16,516 Speaker 2: my previous identity are transferable into this new chapter. And 713 00:33:16,596 --> 00:33:19,116 Speaker 2: so that I feel like maybe the label is different, 714 00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:21,276 Speaker 2: but I don't have to lose who I am or 715 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 2: how I operate. You know, or what I consider to 716 00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:25,916 Speaker 2: be core parts of my personality, I can still find 717 00:33:25,916 --> 00:33:28,876 Speaker 2: outlets for those, So I think that is one effective 718 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:30,996 Speaker 2: way to kind of manage that change. 719 00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:34,836 Speaker 1: So, James, you've shared so much valuable content with us today. 720 00:33:35,196 --> 00:33:39,076 Speaker 1: For the listener who's feeling energized to begin this new habit, 721 00:33:39,276 --> 00:33:40,716 Speaker 1: what's your advice to them? 722 00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:43,676 Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes the two best time frames to 723 00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:46,396 Speaker 2: focus on are either ten years or one hour. So 724 00:33:47,036 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 2: ten years is like, if you think about most of 725 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 2: the meaningful things you're trying to achieve in your life, 726 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,236 Speaker 2: building a great marriage, raising kids that you're proud of, 727 00:33:56,156 --> 00:34:00,036 Speaker 2: growing a successful business, or launching a startup, writing a book, 728 00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:01,836 Speaker 2: getting in the best shape of your life, pick whatever 729 00:34:01,876 --> 00:34:05,276 Speaker 2: it is for you. These are almost always multi year things, 730 00:34:05,836 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 2: and so it's a big thing to try to accomplish. 731 00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:10,956 Speaker 2: But I think just think about that big fisher thing 732 00:34:11,036 --> 00:34:13,196 Speaker 2: you're trying to move toward, and then scale it down 733 00:34:13,196 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 2: and ask yourself, what can I do in the next 734 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,156 Speaker 2: hour to move me toward where I want to be 735 00:34:17,196 --> 00:34:19,996 Speaker 2: in ten years? And if you just make it granular 736 00:34:20,076 --> 00:34:22,116 Speaker 2: like that and try to have one good step today, 737 00:34:22,596 --> 00:34:24,596 Speaker 2: you turn around in a year or two or five 738 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:26,556 Speaker 2: or ten and probably be surprised by a lot of 739 00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 2: the progress that you made. So in that way, I 740 00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:31,636 Speaker 2: think you can have a strategy where small habits are 741 00:34:31,676 --> 00:34:34,356 Speaker 2: not just about doing things that are small, they're also 742 00:34:34,356 --> 00:34:37,076 Speaker 2: about doing things that are powerful. And that's one of 743 00:34:37,076 --> 00:34:39,196 Speaker 2: the main reasons why I chose the phrase atomic habits. 744 00:34:39,196 --> 00:34:41,476 Speaker 2: It's not only tighty, it's also powerful. 745 00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:16,076 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 746 00:35:16,156 --> 00:35:18,836 Speaker 1: conversation with James, don't miss the next two weeks of 747 00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:22,036 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans. We're revisiting two of our 748 00:35:22,076 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 1: favorite episodes. The first one is an episode on the 749 00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:29,196 Speaker 1: science of making and keeping friends, and then a conversation 750 00:35:29,276 --> 00:35:32,436 Speaker 1: about how a small shift in mindset can make stress 751 00:35:32,476 --> 00:35:36,156 Speaker 1: work for us rather than against us. And I'm excited 752 00:35:36,156 --> 00:35:38,316 Speaker 1: to share that we're back with the new season of 753 00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:41,356 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans beginning in early March, and 754 00:35:41,516 --> 00:35:44,076 Speaker 1: it is a goodie. We can't wait to share it 755 00:35:44,116 --> 00:35:57,516 Speaker 1: with you. See you soon. A Slight Change of Plans 756 00:35:57,636 --> 00:36:00,796 Speaker 1: is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. 757 00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:05,156 Speaker 1: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our 758 00:36:05,196 --> 00:36:09,996 Speaker 1: senior editor Kate Parkinson, Morgan, our producer Trisha Ba and 759 00:36:10,076 --> 00:36:14,836 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 760 00:36:14,876 --> 00:36:18,516 Speaker 1: theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocal. A 761 00:36:18,556 --> 00:36:21,556 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 762 00:36:21,716 --> 00:36:25,156 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 763 00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:28,596 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 764 00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:31,756 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker