WEBVTT - The Linchpin: Joe Berlinger 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:04.720 Before we get started today, a quick note about another show. 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:07.680 I know you probably care about climate change if you're 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.720 listening to this podcast, so I want to recommend another one 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.640 that's sharing some of the most powerful ideas about the 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.720 climate crisis. It's called Countdown, and it's part of Ted's 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:22.439 global initiative to champion and accelerate solutions to the climate crisis, 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:28.240 turning ideas into action with talks from Prince William, decarbonization 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:34.520 strategist Monica Araya, environmental activist Severn Cullis, Suzuki, and many 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.760 many more. You can check out Countdown wherever you listen 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.639 to podcasts, and stick around after this episode to hear 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.159 clip from the show on why climate justice can't happen 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.199 without racial justice. 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.720 If you were watching ABC seven US at eleven, two 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.840 activists spearheading a landmark class action lawsuit against Chevron are 0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:00.560 receiving the world's most prestigious environmental honor today. Pablodo and 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.839 Luisienza are accepting the Goldman Prize in San Francisco today. 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.480 It is for their efforts to make Chevron clean up 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.920 what some environmentalists call the world's worst oil related disaster. 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.080 This is a clip from the documentary Crude the Real 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.560 Price of Oil, about the Chevron litigation in Ecuador. This 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.840 particular scene shows what happened when Ecuadorian attorney Pablo Fajardo 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.959 and activist Luisianza came to San Francisco to accept the 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:34.040 Goldman Environmental Prize. Remember we mentioned this a couple episodes. 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.800 Back tonight, Chevron is finding the claim and the two 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.360 men who they say have made up their story for 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.640 their own financial gain. They're frankly a group of con 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.160 men that have put one past the Goldmans and have 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.840 been put putting it past the media for quite some 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:48.400 time now too. 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.520 Concider and investiguing Naida. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.680 If you deem so, please to investigate the life of Pablo. 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.080 Fajardo, Investiga navidad. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:00.960 And investigate which everyone's life is. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.800 That's key one of investigingndrest a king time. 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.360 Once you investigate, you'll see who is lying. 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:10.040 In this case. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.280 We mentioned last time that one of the many subpoenas 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.560 that Chevron's attorney Randy Mastro filed when Chevron brought on 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.560 his firm Gibson Dunn to help with their defense, was 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.280 for outtakes from this film Crude. It was a big 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.799 moment in the case, and today we're going to dig 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.919 into it in detail with the documentary's filmmaker, Joe Berlinger. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.519 Berlinger is a pioneering documentary filmmaker who's made several groundbreaking 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:44.639 films both before and since Crude, including Paradise Lost, Brothers Keeper, Metallica, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.560 Some Kind of Monster, and more recently, Conversations with a Killer, 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.640 The Ted Bundy Tapes and Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich, both 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:53.480 for Netflix. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.000 Hey Bob, I can I call you later? I know 0:02:58.040 --> 0:02:59.440 you're wishing me a happy birthday, but I'm in the 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.160 middle of a is. 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:01.720 It your birthday? 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:02.000 Today? 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:03.520 Birthday? 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.240 Thank God, happy birthday. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.799 I started bugging Berlinger to talk to us for this 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.680 season months ago, and it took a lot of convincing, 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.800 but ultimately he agreed to do it, and on his birthday, 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:19.000 no less. It's no wonder he was hesitant. Mastro and 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.200 his team made Berlinger's life hell for a couple of 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.040 years when they subpoenaed his outtakes. Berlinger fought it. As 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.120 an independent documentarian. He figured he had First Amendment protections 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.519 and journalistic privilege, and he didn't want to set a 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.040 bad precedent for his industry or for journalists in general. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.920 He paid a heavy price for that fight, literally and figuratively. 0:03:42.680 --> 0:04:06.320 That story coming up right after this quick break. Welcome 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.800 back to Drill Season five, l Ucha Longa. I'm Amy Westerveldt. 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:15.200 Today we're talking to documentary film director Joe Berlinger, and 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.640 we're digging into the ramp up to this reco case 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.080 that was filed just before the verdict came out in Ecuador. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.160 We talked about that a bit at the end of 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.640 the last episode. Here's Berlinger describing how he started to 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:30.520 make this film in the first place. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.800 One of the ironies of this film having had such 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:35.839 a deep impact on my life, as I never wanted 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:37.239 to make it in the first place. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.520 In order to get outtakes from Crude, Randy Mastro had 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.600 to show that Berlinger was neither independent nor a journalist. 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.720 He did that with two key accusations, first that the 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.680 film was solicited by the plaintiff's attorneys, and second that 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.760 the plaintiff's attorneys had editorial input. Here's Berlinger. 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:03.720 Steven Donziger, a plaintiffs lawyer, had a mutual friend who 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.160 knew me, and Stephen Donziger came to my office in 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.360 New York in I think two thousand and five, and 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.760 pitched me on the idea of making a film, but 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.200 obviously not pitching me to work for them. They knew 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.480 I was an independent journalist and they just so believed 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:24.840 in the story that they wanted a filmmaker of my 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.160 stature to take a look at the story. And initially 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:30.280 I was very hesitant. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.480 Now keep in mind this was two thousand and five. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.120 Streaming was not really a thing. Netflix was still mostly 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:41.159 just mailing people. DBDs and documentaries were gaining in popularity, 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.800 but this more recent boom was nowhere in sight. It 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.120 was hard to sell documentary at the time, much less 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.120 one in Spanish about an environmental issue in a country 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:51.559 far away from the US. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:53.680 They were just pitching me. They thought this would make 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.479 a great film. It was an interesting period to step 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.560 into the case. The trial had started an Ecuador in 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.920 two thousand and three and had kind of petered out, 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.800 and they were waiting for these judicial field inspections to 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.960 start in the coming year, and so pitched me several 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.480 times about it, and I was a little reluctant, and 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.120 Donziger said to me, look, let me take you down 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.280 and show you the region, you know, the famous Toxi 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.320 tour that you know so many people have taken. 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.720 You might remember us mentioning the Toxi tour a few 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.720 episodes back when we met Donald Moncayo. It was a 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.520 tour that the plaintiffs took many journalists and politicians on 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.080 over the years of the various oil pits Texico had 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:36.840 left in the Ecuadorian Amazon. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.640 And he was very persistent. You know, they really thought 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.000 I was the right guy because I had made two 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.200 well known criminal justice films, Paradise Lost and Brothers Keeper. 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:51.880 And initially I was just reluctant, and Donziger was somewhat 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.440 relentless in trying to win me over to come down 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:59.200 and take Toxi tour. And so several months after that 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.320 first meeting he called again and said, I really want 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.480 to show you the region. And I said, look, I 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.000 will go down and check it out. It sounds like 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.080 an interesting personal experience. But you know, I don't want 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.440 to mismanage your expectations. I have lots of hesitation and 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.720 doubt about whether or not I want to make this film. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.040 I have other projects happening. I think this one will 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.440 be a difficult one. To raise money for But I 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.160 will take the Toxi tour, although it wasn't called that 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.120 then to me, But I will go down and take 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.280 the tour of the region, as long as you understand 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.400 that I'm not promising you that I'm going to commit 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:35.480 to making a film about it. 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.560 So he went, and when he got to the Amazon 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.880 and Ecuador, Berlinger says he was shocked by what he saw. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.240 I was just blown away by the devastation. I mean, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.720 here we are in a pristine or what was supposed 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.240 to be, this pristine region of the world that everyone 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.480 talks about the Amazon being so special and magical, and 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:10.280 all I saw was gas flares out of you know, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:19.520 oil refineries, these pits, these unline pits all over the landscape, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:27.320 people living over these pits, people dying of cancer. I 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.840 was horrified. It was kind of my wake up call. 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.520 And I remember, in particular the moment that I just 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.360 felt like I had to make this film is we 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:42.839 were paddling by canoe to Durano, which is the ancestral 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.480 land of the Coofon, where prior to Texico's arrival, there 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.959 were about fifteen thousand Coofon and now there were just 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.439 hundreds of Cofon living on their ancestral lands. And as 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:56.960 we pulled up, we were going to have a meeting 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.280 with some of the tribal leaders. And as we pulled 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.000 up to the shore to get out, I looked to 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.600 my left and there was a family, several families, sitting 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:12.240 around a fire, eating canned tuna fish out of these 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:17.720 giant imagine you know, these big industrial kind of vats 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:22.320 of tuna that that a restaurant might buy at whatever 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:27.280 the Ecuadorian equivalent of costco would be. And here we 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.240 were in the middle of the Amazon rainforest, you know, 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:35.560 with water based people, the Cofon, and these these families 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.840 were eating canned tuna fish because there was no there 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.120 was no fish in there in their rivers, and I 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.680 just I just felt like, you know, something's got. 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:46.160 To be done. 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:54.959 He didn't know how he was going to do it. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.120 The Bilander couldn't shake the feeling that this film needed 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.120 to be made and that he needed to be the 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:00.880 one to make it. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.920 I got home, and I went upstairs and tucked my 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:10.120 child into bed, and went to the tap and took 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.120 a drink of water and looked at the glass of 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.920 water and thought to myself. You know, these luxuries that 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:20.760 we take for granted, these poor people, these water based people, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.160 have polluted water. You know, they use water for transportation, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.319 for drinking, for bathing, for cleaning. And I just I 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.320 just felt like the universe tapping me on the shoulder, saying, 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.920 you know, you, for whatever reason, you're the guy who 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.080 has to make this movie, and don't worry about fundraising. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.040 And in fact, I started the movie with my own 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.280 resources because I just I just felt like somebody had 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.840 to tell this story because I was just I could 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:47.640 not believe what I saw. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:48.160 It was. 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:49.800 It was horrifying. 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.199 Berliner says the legal proceedings provided some narrative, structure and 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.880 drama to the story, but he was never really interested 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.760 in making a film about a lawsuit or sighting with 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:00.839 one side or the other. 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.600 You know, my style of filmmaking is to show both 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.640 sides of the story and let the viewer decide. And 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.200 the plaintiffs actually, when they saw the movie at Sundance, 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.719 were kind of shocked at how much Chevron's point of 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.760 view was in the film. I actually had a much 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:20.520 more thirty thousand foot view of the situation, which was 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.600 as much as I admire the historic nature of this case. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.280 As much as it as this David and Goliath's story 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:35.480 was impressive cinematically and as impressive as it is that 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:41.760 indigenous people were actually holding Chevron to account for the 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.120 actions of Texaco in this historic lawsuit, My interest in 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.360 this case was a little different, and it's why I 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.040 show both sides in the movie. 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.960 It's true you hear from a lot of different attorneys 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.079 and scientists and other kinds of experts throughout the film. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.920 Here's an example where Berliner interviewed Ricardo raised Vega, the 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.679 longtime Chevron attorney in Ecuador. You've heard his name come 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:08.200 up a few times this season. 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.559 My name is Ricardo res Vega, being with the company 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:17.760 for thirty years, practicing law in different countries and jurisdictions. 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.400 My involvement with Ecuador started in nineteen ninety one, when 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:30.439 our concession was about to expire. We try really to 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:35.880 get an extension for another ten years. We proposed an 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:40.440 additional investment in Ecuador. The government at the time basically 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.000 thought that they didn't want to do that, and they said, well, 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.439 we want to have one hundred percent ownership of the 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.320 Consortian air fields. It's known that Patrick Calador has had 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.480 a very poor operational record. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.760 I mean, the movie's actually quite balanced, because for me, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:05.160 there is something deeply disturbing about an environmental calamity of 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:10.160 this magnitude, the area the size of Rhode Island, more 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.439 oil dumped than you know, thirty times more oil, as 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.880 I understand it, dumped than the Exxon Valdies incident. And 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.880 why is it that this environmental calamity is being held 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:30.839 hostage to a protracted legal proceeding. If this was you know, 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:37.240 the BP oil spill or the spill outside of Santa Barbara, 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.160 if this was on the shores of the United States 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:45.679 or European country, there would be immediate environmental remediation and 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:50.000 then the legal proceedings would figure out who's responsible, as 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:54.559 happened in this country many times. Meanwhile, these poor people 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.360 have been held hostage for thirty years to this case, 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.560 and that really that was the point of the film. 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.360 That's why I show both sides. I let each side 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:07.000 have their say. But to me, there's something even more 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.959 fundamentally wrong that the world. You know, we know how 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.520 important the Amazon is to the Earth's ecosystem, and we 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:19.320 are destroying the Amazon. As we all know, and oil 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.840 extraction is a dirty, messy business, and if this incident 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:30.360 had happened anywhere where white people live, it would have 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.320 been cleaned up, you know, and then they would have 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.080 figured out the culpability later. My point of view was, look, 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.400 I am not smart enough to tell you whether or 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:44.840 not Chevron has wrapped itself up in enough legal arguments 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.760 to be legally correct in this situation. But there is 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:54.160 a moral issue here. With such devastation, why are we 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.600 not cleaning it up now and figuring out the legal 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.040 responsibility later. That's really is the point of view of 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:06.800 the movie, and why the irony that I was castigated 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:11.000 as a shill and a propagandist for the plaintiffs is 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:12.520 just so fundamentally wrong. 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.440 One of the strategies Gibson duntook to try to undermine 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.240 the case in Ecuador was to pit the plaintiff's attorneys 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.800 against each other. We're going to get into that strategy 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:28.680 in a bit more detail in the next episode. But 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.040 Berlinger had a bird's eye view of some of the 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:35.520 natural tensions between the Ecuadorian and American attorneys, things that 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.560 would have been easy for a master litigator like Mastro 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:39.440 to exploit. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.240 I mean, from a cinematic standpoint, you couldn't have asked 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:47.280 for a better pairing of Pablo and Steven Donziger. Pablo 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.440 is a very impressive guy. I mean, you know, he 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.960 grew up in that region, he worked in the oil fields. 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:58.720 He was impoverished, a self educated lawyer, finding himself at 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.720 the center of one of the most historic and biggest 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:03.800 environmental lawsuits in history. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.880 We spoke with Pablo for this season, and unfortunately we 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.840 were talking to Pablo over the Internet and the connection 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.640 wasn't great, so the recording hasn't turned out that well. 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.640 So instead I'm going to play another clip from Crude 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.720 because it shows you kind of how Pablo interacted with 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.800 the plaintiffs, what he was doing on the ground in Ecuador. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.760 This is a scene where Fajardo is speaking with members 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.000 of the Sequoya tribe. That's the tribe that Houstino Piaguaje 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.000 is a leader of. We've heard from him a couple 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:33.040 of times this season. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:35.880 A Primierra. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.680 He says, first of all, thank you for the welcome, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:50.720 thank you for having us, I mean the thanks also 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.920 to the Sequoya village that's signed on to the lawsuit. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.280 These contributions have allowed the trial to move forward. 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.360 Paired with Donziger, you know, is a big guy, big 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.040 in many ways. He has a big presence. He's physically 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:16.320 largs and so Donziger was a very large presence and 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.919 Pablo was a very quiet but commanding presence. I mean 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:25.680 he has he just had this natural charisma, a quietness 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.040 to him. But it's hard to explain, but he just 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:34.520 he just oozed with morality and somebody on a mission. 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.440 And the two of them together were quite an interesting parents. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:45.280 You know, this quiet, serious, committed chay Gavara kind of 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.960 figure who is a man of the people, who is 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:53.280 not motivated by finances, who really is a hero in 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.080 my opinion, whether you believe in the cases merits or not, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:02.880 he is a hero. And Donziger, you know, also is heroic, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.639 but I think is a much more complicated figure, wrong 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:11.480 and dynamic presence who drove the case forward. There would 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.040 have been no case without him. But he's a package 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.159 and there was you know, there was some stuff that 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.119 I think rubbed the Ecuadorians the wrong way, and it 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.040 was a very complicated relationship that I observed, you know, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.960 not the least of which is something that's not Donziger's fault. 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.439 But this whole white white savior thing in a country 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:36.600 that was trying to throw off the yoke of imperial Yeah, totally. 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:43.560 Here you had this big, tall, aggressive white guy telling 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.040 them what to do. And on the one hand, they 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.480 needed that council. But on the other hand, I think 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.880 it rubbed people the wrong way as well. But there 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:53.920 would have been no case without Donziger. 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.400 Mastro argued that there would have been no documentary without 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:01.880 Donziger either. And Donziger diditch Berlinger the idea of doing 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.920 a documentary, and he did show him around in Ecuador. 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.440 But importantly, Berlander says he paid his own way for 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.960 that initial toxi toward trip that convinced him to make 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.479 the film. And also this whole thing of someone pitching 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.960 you a story and then encouraging you to go check 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.760 it out more. It's extremely common. People bitch me stories 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.400 all the time. They like me up with sources or information. 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:31.200 Whistleblowers have leaked documents to me. Former excellent scientists have 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.800 had me over to talk to them at length. None 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:36.640 of that means that I work for any of these people, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.800 or that covering a story that I get pitched somehow 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.359 erodes my First Amendment rights as a journalist. 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.280 In my court papers where I lost my subpoena battle, 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:51.600 they deemed I was not a journalist because Donziger solicited 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.879 the movie from me and used verbiage to make it 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.679 seem like somehow they paid for the movie or they 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.480 aired me to do the movie. But the court disregarded 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.320 the fact that I had a DGA deal memo that 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:07.600 said I have final cut. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.560 The DGA is the Director's Guild of America. That's the 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:12.879 labor union for film and TV directors. 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:15.560 I had a DGA deal memo that said I have 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.560 final cut. That the release that Stephen Donziger and all 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.760 the other plaintiff signed gave me final cut of the movie. 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:28.440 They had no editorial rights to the film. They did 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.760 not pay me to make the film. It was an 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:33.520 independently financed film. 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.440 The court ignored the deal memo with respect to the 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.400 other argument in Master's subpoena requests too, that the plaintiff's 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.600 attorneys had editorial input on the film. That argument was 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.360 made on the basis of one key thing. 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:58.600 Here's mastro So Joe Barlanchard produces Crude and it shows 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:05.760 on the festival circuit. It yeah, then it comes out 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:11.320 on Netflix, and a curious thing was picked up by 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:18.040 the Chevron team. There was a change in scenes from 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:24.119 the film festival version to the Netflix version, and the 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.879 scene that had been changed were deleted was a scene 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:33.080 that showed someone supposedly working as an independent expert for Cabrera, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.600 was in fact meeting with the plaintiffs lawyers and their 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.040 clients at a session that Joe Berlinger was Steve Donziger 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:46.840 in attendance with that Joe Berlinger filmed, and then by 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:50.520 the time it came out on Netflix, that scene had 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.560 been deleted, so you could so you could still hear 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.120 the audio, because the audio was one of the lawyers 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.840 in Ecuador who was working with Donziger doing the speaking 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:07.320 and donzig are doing the speaking, But the image of 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.680 Cabrera's assistant there at that meeting when he's supposed to 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:15.880 be operating objectively and independently and meeting with the plaintas 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.960 lawyers and Donziger and what appeared to be some of 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:24.920 their clients, that scene, that video was deleted. 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:30.480 That is largely true, but it lacks context. 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.280 Berlinger argued this point in court as well. 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:35.720 When you go to Sundance often a film is not 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.560 quite finished. You get in great, they tell you by 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.520 Thanksgiving you rush you finish the film. Of course you're 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:43.760 showing a finished film. 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.800 So just to be clear, you find out at Thanksgiving 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.520 at the end of November if your film has made 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:54.639 it into Sundance, and Sundance is in January, which means 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.639 you have just a few weeks really to lock your 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.440 film in before doing all of the sort of post 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.280 production things that are required to finish a film and 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:04.480 show it at the festival. 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.920 It often, you know, is not The final version of 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.399 the film, Brothers Keeper was premiered at Sundance, and you know, 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.600 sitting with an audience, we realized needed some changes and 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.280 it was twenty minutes too long. So the final version 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.720 of Brothers Keeper differed from the sun Dance version. In fact, 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.760 virtually every film I have brought to Sundance we make 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:30.360 tweaks afterwards. So we showed the movie at Sundance. Chevron 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:32.920 was invited to come to Sundance and they declined. The 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:39.000 plaintiffs came and Donziger at some point sent me a 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.920 ten twelve page memo with all the things he didn't 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:45.000 like about the film. 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.440 So this tracks with our interactions with Donziger for this 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:52.080 podcast too. You know, he's a guy who likes to 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.400 control the story, and that's not uncommon, especially when you're 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.280 covering a contentious legal case. Lawyers, in particular, and in 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.880 this case, because he's had so much personal blowback from 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:05.320 this case, find it useful to make their case in 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:07.840 the press, and Berlinger was used to dealing with that. 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.040 He had made two other films focused on legal cases. 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:15.600 Here's Berlinger again explaining how this one change did happen. 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:20.400 In ninety nine percent of his suggestion, In fact, ninety 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:24.639 nine point five percent of his suggestions. I disregard it, 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:30.879 you know. But Pablo in particular was concerned that the 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.760 condensation of chronology, you know, which is what I was 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:42.960 told by Donziger and by Fajardo, that the condensation of 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:48.440 chronology in my film made it appear that somebody who 0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:51.840 shouldn't have been in a scene was in a scene, 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:58.760 and would I consider removing two cutaways? That's the thing 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:02.320 people have, you know. The implication is that I re 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:07.200 edited the film and changed scenes. I mean literally two 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:13.520 cutaways that included the guy from a Oxyon ecologic. I 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:18.200 believe you know an NGO who later became part of 0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:23.399 Cabrera's independent team, who was at a meeting, and this 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:28.280 person is sitting in the background. He's not a character 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:32.560