1 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: What do you think of when I say chap Equittic. 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think of Ted Kennedy, and I think of 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: him getting himself into trouble with a young woman and 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: a bridge and some drinking and a lot of aps covering. 5 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: That's my general memory. 6 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: I'm George Savers, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United 7 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 3: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with 8 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 3: the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect 9 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about 10 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: chap Equittic. 11 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: Yes, which immediately makes me think about the show's Succession. 12 00:00:59,400 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 3: Ok. 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: I was obsessed with Succession, the HBO show about an 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: unimaginably wealthy and powerful family, and the season one finale 15 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: involved Kendall, the eldest boy, getting into a car accident 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: or a passenger drowns, which is a very clear reference 17 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: to a tragic Kennedy event referred to now as simply 18 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: chap equittic. 19 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 3: And the whole thing is a very big flashpoint in 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 3: the Kennedy chronology. So before we get into the details, 21 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 3: just to clear up a few things, chap Equittic is 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: a place. It is an island off the coast of Massachusetts, 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: but the shorthand chap Equittic nowadays references the event itself. 24 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: So when Succession fervor was at its height and it 25 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: was all anyone was talking about. I had so many 26 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: conversations with friends where I referenced chapp Equittic, and to 27 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: my surprise, most of them had no idea what I 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: was talking about, which is. 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,279 Speaker 3: So wild because it's a huge piece of the Kennedy 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 3: story and a very popular example of the Kennedy curse. 31 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: Also a proof of the power of the Kennedy machine, 32 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 3: because just like in Succession, the Kennedy's immediately ran a 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 3: cover up to protect the eldest boy, so Lyra, What 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 3: exactly happened that night in nineteen sixty nine, That's. 35 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: The million dollar question. There are still so many mysteries 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: surrounding the actualities of that night, but here is what 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: we do know. On July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, a 38 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: group of Kennedy friends and political workers were having a 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: party in a small cottage on Chapiquitic Island in Massachusetts. 40 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 3: There was a lot of drinking and it was kind 41 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: of a reunion for the women who worked on Bobby 42 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 3: Kennedy's presidential campaign, including Mary Joe Kopekni and Rosemary Keo, 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: who will come up again later. 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: Sometime around midnight, Ted Kennedy left the party, driving his 45 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: black Oldsmobile on the dirt road from the cottage with 46 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: Mary Joe in the car. Kennedy drives off a one 47 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: lane bridge into poach a pond, and then the details 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: get very messy. Ted says he tried repeatedly to rescue 49 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: Mary Joe but wasn't able to get her out of 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: the completely submerged car. 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: What we do know is that he eventually returned to 52 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: the party and acted like nothing had happened. 53 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's strange behavior, regardless of really any excuse he 54 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: comes up with. Instead of calling for help or alerting 55 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: anyone nearby, he goes to the party and tells his cousin, 56 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: Joseph Gargan and Paul Markham, a friend and lawyer. Then 57 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: they all returned to the pond and Joseph and Paul 58 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: try to reach Mary Joe, but they can't. 59 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 3: And again they still have not alerted authorities or told 60 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 3: anyone else at this point, which is pretty brazen of them. 61 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: So Mary Joe's body is not found until the next 62 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: morning when fishermen spot the car. And there are so 63 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: many confusing and honestly ridiculous claims made by Ted to 64 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: explain it all. So today we have a special guest 65 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: on to help us unravel at all. 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People Magazine 67 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: and the co author of the New York Times bestseller 68 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: JFK Junior and Intimate Oral Biography. She was also the 69 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: host of Cover Up, a podcast that looked into the 70 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 3: story of chap Equittic, and that's why we're talking to 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: her today. Liz, Welcome to the show. Thanks so great 72 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: to be here. 73 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: So what brought Ted Kennedy and Mary Joe Kopecni to 74 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: chap Equittic. 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 4: So way back then, they were in chap Equittic that 76 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 4: weekend because first there was a regatta, there was a 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 4: sailboat race that Ted Kennedy often participated in, and it 78 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 4: was that weekend, and it was also reunion for the 79 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: women several women who had worked for Bobby Kennedy in 80 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 4: his presidential run. They were called the boiler room girls 81 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 4: because they worked in a windowless office, but they were 82 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 4: part of the operation to help get write Bobby first 83 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: nominated and then elected president, and then there were a 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 4: several men that were also invited, a Senator Kennedy being one. 85 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: He was one of the hosts, and they had also 86 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 4: were in some ways affiliated with the Kennedy family with 87 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 4: the campaign, et cetera, et cetera. So there were these 88 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 4: two things and they come together for a barbecue and 89 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 4: a cookout on July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine. 90 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 3: So we'll get into the details of everything that happened 91 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: in a second, but before we do, you know, after 92 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 3: chap Equittic ted, Kennedy's career was sort of defined by 93 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 3: this scandal in many ways. But we were curious what 94 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 3: did the public think of him before that? What was 95 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: his image in the public eye before chap Equittic. 96 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 4: You know, it's a good question, and I'm old, but 97 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 4: I'm not that old, but I will say this. He yes, 98 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 4: he's considered the heir apparent, but I think there was 99 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 4: a sense that he's a young senator at this point 100 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 4: in Massachusetts. But you know, there's President Kennedy JFK. There's 101 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 4: Bobby who really becomes this you know, incredible figure over 102 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 4: this short course of running for president of sort of 103 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 4: inspiration becomes sort of much deeper spiritually. He's really connecting 104 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 4: to people, reaching out, whether to farm workers or you know, 105 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 4: getting more involved in racial issues. He definitely sort of 106 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 4: takes on a new deeper persona. Right after the death 107 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: of the assassination of his brother, I think there was 108 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 4: probably a sense that maybe Teddy wasn't up to the task, 109 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 4: not that that had been proven. He was a young 110 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 4: senator at the time, but I think wasn't maybe considered 111 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 4: in the same way. I think his long career in 112 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: the Senate probably disproves that. But at this point, right 113 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: at this juncture in nineteen sixty nine, perhaps he's not 114 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: seen as the serious one because. 115 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: He was really young too. He was as young as 116 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: he could possibly be as a senator. Yes, Also, I 117 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: want to explain the boiler room girls. 118 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, and of course, and there's many things in 119 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 4: the story. Know when you reported that are of course 120 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 4: you know you wouldn't refer to somebody today as a 121 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 4: boiler room girl. But yes, it was. They were very, 122 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: very involved, uh in the UH in the campaign. I 123 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 4: think each of the women were assigned states. I know 124 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: Mary Joe Capecne was assigned certain States and was very 125 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 4: involved in you know, voter registration, getting people out to vote, 126 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 4: rallying the vote. So these were serious young women, very 127 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 4: inspired by Bobby. They were very connected to Bobby. And 128 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 4: what's so interesting is that, you know, because of what 129 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 4: happens at chap Equittic, they become very connected to Senator 130 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: Ted Kennedy. But they're really you know, believers, right, I 131 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 4: think they call them true believers in Bobby and uh 132 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 4: and and what he and his campaign were all about. 133 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: So yeah, they were very serious young women who really believed, 134 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 4: I think, in Bobby's mission. 135 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: All right. So so now that we've set the scene, 136 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: I guess before we go into the details, you know, 137 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: in your own words, what did happen at Trapiquittic. 138 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 4: Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There's 139 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 4: the official record which people know, and basically, right, there's 140 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 4: this gathering of six women and I think it's six 141 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 4: men on that night, and it's really a reunion of 142 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 4: sorts for people who worked on the campaign. And I 143 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 4: think it's a sad one because you know, it was 144 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 4: incredible loss with the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. But what 145 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 4: happens that night is a woman drowns, Mary Joe Kopecne, 146 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 4: and there is a very long delay. Ted is driving 147 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: the car and there's a very long delay nine to 148 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 4: ten hours before that is reported to the authorities. So right, 149 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 4: that's not reported until the next morning, July nineteenth. So 150 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 4: that story of exactly what happened. There's the official account 151 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 4: of what Senator Kennedy put forth that's well documented, and 152 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 4: then there's a lot of other theories about what happened 153 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 4: that night. And I have my own just based on 154 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 4: the investigation that I did and the people that I 155 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 4: talked to, and it really became a story about memory 156 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 4: and also about privilege. 157 00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: You know. 158 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 4: I just I'm going to tell you about this book. 159 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 4: This is this was my bible. This book is called 160 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 4: Senatorial Privilege by Leo de Moore, and Leo Demore is 161 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 4: a local reporter who digs into the case several years 162 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: after the fact and probably interviews over two hundred people. 163 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 4: So this book is the bible sort of for reporters 164 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 4: for finding out what happened. And I think what he 165 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 4: would say, and probably what I would say, is it 166 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 4: didn't go down the way that Senator Kennedy and others 167 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 4: said that it went down, Right, There's there's a lot 168 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 4: of strange things happened that night, happened in the aftermath, 169 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 4: happened because of the Kennedy's political power, you know, certain 170 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 4: things happened. I think, as somebody said, right, it was 171 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 4: as if there was one set of rules for the 172 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 4: Kennedys and one set of rules for everyone else. So 173 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 4: it's about the death of this young woman, Mary Joe Kopecne, 174 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 4: and her story gets completely eclipsed right by Senator Kennedy, 175 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 4: and it's really becomes a story about his political future, 176 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: and it really doesn't become a story is story about 177 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 4: the loss of this young woman. 178 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 3: And how was the case at that time covered in 179 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: the media. Would you say that people were sort of 180 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: and obviously on Ted Kennedy's side. That sounds ridiculous, But 181 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: were people feeling suspicious of the entire thing was it? 182 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 3: Did people see it sort of as a tragedy that 183 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: was no one's fault? 184 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: Interesting? You know, there's a famous headline. I think it's 185 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 4: in the New York Daily News, and I think it's 186 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 4: Teddy escapes, Blonde rowns and in a strange way, right, 187 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 4: that sort of tells you, right, the story really became 188 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 4: about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes, how this is 189 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 4: going to affect right Ted's Will Ted become president, Will 190 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 4: Ted be able to you know, take the mantle from 191 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: you know, sort of this thing that's been handed to him, 192 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 4: all this expectation. But it was never about Mary Jo Kopecney. 193 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 4: There was so little known about her. I when I 194 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 4: started the investigation, I knew nothing about her. I didn't 195 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 4: even if anybody was alive who her. And then I became, 196 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 4: you know, close to her cousin, who was a very 197 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 4: important part of the story. But so in terms of 198 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 4: you know, I think, you know, there were certainly investigations 199 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 4: done about what was happening, but at the tenor of 200 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 4: the times is so different. You know, this is really 201 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 4: within six years of you know, incredible losses that the 202 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 4: Kennedy family suffers, which you know, yes, on one hand, 203 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 4: it has nothing to do with it, but perhaps it 204 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 4: also has a lot to do with, you know, how 205 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 4: the story unfolded. But yes, definitely there was criticism and 206 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 4: investigative reporters on the scene and sort of trying to 207 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 4: find out what really happened. But I would say the 208 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 4: story was really always about Ted Kennedy. That's how it 209 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 4: was covered. 210 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: At the time. 211 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 4: M hm. 212 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: And so one of the things that we find truly 213 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: interesting about his response or his public speaking after the fact, 214 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: is that he uses the word. He says that, you know, 215 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe there is some curse. 216 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: And it was the first time that Kennedy ever referred 217 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: to any kind of Kennedy curse. And I think it 218 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 3: was the first time it was like mentioned on the 219 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: public record at all, Like the first time it was 220 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 3: sort of popularized as an idea, surprisingly was from m Kennedy, 221 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 3: even though then so many members of the Kennedy family 222 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 3: spent so much time trying to deny that there was 223 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: something like a curse. And so it's interesting that the 224 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: first time it was mentioned, it wasn't because of something 225 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 3: that quote unquote happened to them. It was about something that, 226 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: in fact, you know, was a direct result from an 227 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 3: action committed by a Kennedy. 228 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 4: Right, this is the first time that any Kennedy has 229 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: used the term a Kennedy curse. Now, don't forget, not 230 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 4: only is there the loss, the incredible violence of the 231 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 4: loss of President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy, but There's also 232 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 4: the loss of the older brother, Joe, who died in 233 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 4: a bombing miss mission. At the end of World War Two. 234 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 4: There's a loss of Kathleen Kennedy in a horrible plane accident, 235 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 4: and you know, many things will follow after that. But 236 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 4: I think what's so interesting about the term of a 237 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 4: Kennedy curse is that it's sort of one could say 238 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 4: that it absolves responsibility, right, because what is a curse. 239 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 4: Curse is something that we're not we don't control. It's 240 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 4: something that comes inexplicable, that comes from, you know, forces 241 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 4: greater than ourselves. When when you look at chap equitic 242 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 4: or when you examine chap Equittic, right, it really was 243 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 4: the actions of you know, somebody who was most definitely 244 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 4: on the planet. So it's an interesting idea. You know, 245 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 4: that idea followed the Kennedys, and maybe it still does 246 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 4: to this day. But it was something that you know, 247 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 4: it's a very it's very evocative, right, and it definitely 248 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 4: makes you think, oh, how could one family withstand so 249 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 4: much tragedy, you know, and as such incredible loss. That 250 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 4: is all true, however, right, it also absolves one of 251 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 4: some responsibility in. 252 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 3: Terms of the sort of speci I want to get 253 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: into the nitty gritty of some of the biggest like 254 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: unsolved mystery. Is one thing that seems kind of shocking 255 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: in retrospect is that an autopsy was never performed. What 256 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 3: was the series of events that led to that? 257 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 4: So do the best of my recollection. The next morning, 258 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 4: the medical examiner is on vacation, so his number two 259 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 4: arrives on the scene and I think doesn't examine. That 260 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 4: lasts about fifteen minutes. She's fully clothed, meaning that's when 261 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 4: she's taken out of the car, and he basically determines 262 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 4: that she has died by drowning. So because of that, right, 263 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 4: because the medical examiner determined that she had died by drowning, 264 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 4: they did not ask for an autopsy. So things get 265 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 4: more complicated from there. So then the body's flown off 266 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 4: the island. The next day, two become embalmed, she's buried. 267 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 4: The Pecknees are a very Catholic family, so several months later, 268 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 4: the DA files something for the body to be exhumed, 269 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 4: right so that there can be an autopsy. But there's 270 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 4: an exhumation hearing, So at this time there's different schools 271 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 4: of thought right about should the body be exzoomed, should 272 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 4: it not be exhumed. I spoke to the two medical 273 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: examiners who were still alive. One of them is still alive, 274 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 4: I think one of them has since passed away. Cyril 275 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 4: Weckt and Werner's Spitz, two of the most famous medical 276 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 4: examiners probably in American history, and they were each of 277 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 4: them was involved arguing either for or against should the 278 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 4: body be exumed. So one thing that's interesting is that 279 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 4: because the Capeknies were very Catholic, they were worried about 280 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 4: what an exhumation would entail. And they were under the 281 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 4: impression that the body was going to be examined to 282 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 4: find out if Mary Joe was a virgin or not. 283 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 4: So don't forget this is you know, many many over 284 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 4: fifty years ago. So there concerned about this, and I 285 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 4: would say, and so they actually argue asked for the 286 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 4: body not to be exhumed, for there not to be 287 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 4: an autopsy. So right fast forward, when I interviewed Georgetta Potowski, 288 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 4: she's Mary Joe's closest living relative. I'm just gonna I 289 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 4: printed it out so I could read it for you. 290 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 4: So this is what Georgetta was saying about Gwen. Gwen 291 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 4: is Mary Joe Kopekni's mother, Gwen Copecny. So Gwen Copecny 292 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 4: and Mary Joe's mother always regretted that she had opposed 293 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 4: an autopsy for her daughter. Years later, Gwen said it 294 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 4: was the biggest mistake she ever made, said Georgetta. There 295 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 4: should have been an autopsy. She knew it would have 296 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 4: cleared up a lot of things end quote. But at 297 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 4: the time, Mary Joe's parents were afraid the autopsy was 298 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 4: solely to determine if their daughter was pregnant, and they 299 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 4: did not understand its importance. Although it was ruled that 300 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 4: Mary Joe had died by drowning, there were always lingering 301 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 4: questions about exactly how long she had survived in the 302 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 4: car and whether she had suffocated or drowned. An autopsy 303 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 4: he would have likely answered those questions. 304 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I was I had always heard that her 305 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: body was in a position that meant that there was 306 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: an air pocket. 307 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what John Ferrars says. So you know, John 308 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 4: ferrar is the diver, and I interviewed him. He's a 309 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 4: fascinating guy. So he's the man who goes in the 310 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 4: next morning, as soon as they find realize that there's 311 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 4: a car underwater. He goes in and he locates Mary Joe, 312 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 4: locates the car and carries her out. It's very dramatic, 313 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 4: very sort of tragic, you know, story. And he believes 314 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 4: that the way Mary Joe's hands or position face body 315 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 4: that yes, she was gasping for air and that she 316 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 4: had found an air pocket. 317 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: That's what he believed, which would have meant that she 318 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: was alive for a time, possibly enough time, right, And. 319 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: We don't know how long she was alive. You know, 320 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: the autopsy perhaps would have, you know, been able to 321 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 4: have narrowed that down, but we don't know could have, 322 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 4: and you know, we just don't know. And it's formal 323 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 4: to even imagine, right, that's like, yeah, it's even hard 324 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: to It was hard for me to, you know, I 325 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 4: had to do it because you have to understand how 326 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 4: Mary Joe died in order to understand the story. But yes, 327 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 4: it is not clear how long she was alive in 328 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 4: the car. 329 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: So we have a mystery surrounding how exactly she died. 330 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: There is a mystery surrounding why she was in the car, 331 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 3: whether or not she was asleep as you say, why 332 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 3: another woman's purse was in the car? What are some 333 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: of the other kind of unsolved mysteries that we still 334 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: you know, people are still looking for answers too, because 335 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 3: this is one of those kind of cases that, you know, 336 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: for lack of a better term, true crime buffs really 337 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: enjoy because there are so many open questions. So what 338 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 3: are the other things that people sort of obsess over? 339 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 4: I think for me, I was interested why the boiler 340 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: room girls never have never spoken. They're all alive, They're 341 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: all very accomplished women. I talk about them in the 342 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 4: last episode of the podcast. Most of them became lawyers, 343 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: had very interesting careers. One of them became an agent 344 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 4: at ICM, and so that they are interesting in and 345 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 4: of themselves, Right, why have they never spoken what it 346 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 4: was like to be you know, they're all their very 347 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 4: young twenties, I think at the time that night, so 348 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 4: there's that. I think for Mary Joe's family, it's still 349 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 4: not exactly clear what happened, Right, Georgetta would always say 350 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 4: to me, they just wanted to know what the last 351 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 4: hours were like, was she happy at the party? What 352 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 4: was their mood? What did they talk about? You know, 353 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: why did she get in the car? The other question? 354 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 4: So the other question is why, So if you know 355 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 4: the geography of what happens, Right, there's a tea in 356 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 4: the road, so there's the road that the house is on. 357 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 4: That the house where the party is and to my 358 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 4: best of my recollection, to the right is the Dyke Bridge, right, 359 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 4: the way the car crashes. To the left is the 360 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 4: road to the ferry. So it's almost a t right. 361 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 4: So why is the car that's supposed to be going 362 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 4: to the ferry right to get home? Why does it 363 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 4: go in the opposite direction? 364 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 3: And we never found out whether or not Ted was intoxicated, correct, 365 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 3: because there was no I remember reading like someone accused 366 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 3: someone involved in the case, you know, why did you 367 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: why didn't you give him a breathalyzer? And the person said, well, 368 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 3: it was the morning after that I spoke to him. 369 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: Even if I did give him a breathalyzer, it would 370 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 3: not say anything useful about what happened to eight hours ago. 371 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 4: Ted never takes a never takes any kind of alcohol tests, 372 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 4: so that's really undetermined. Another question is it's something you do. Oh, 373 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 4: so there's do you know the story of Huck look right? 374 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 4: So Huck, look is the man. I pretty sure he's 375 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 4: the sheriff who says who he's dead? Now? Are said 376 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 4: that he saw the car more or less ninety minutes 377 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 4: after Ted said he left, so I'd have to refresh 378 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 4: my memory. But I think Ted says he says he 379 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 4: leaves around eleven eleven thirty, and I think Huck sees 380 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 4: the car ninety minutes later, or he sees a car 381 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 4: that looks exactly like that. Now, don't forget he doesn't 382 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 4: actually see he sees I think three remembers three letters 383 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 4: or numbers from the car plate when he sees the car. 384 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 4: The next morning, when he goes out to the Dyke Bridge, 385 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 4: he says, that's the car I saw last night. He 386 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 4: sees the car and sort of begins to approach it. 387 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 4: I think he might think that they're lost or something, 388 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: because the car is close to the tee right whether 389 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 4: you make a left or right, and begins to approach it, 390 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 4: and then the car sort of revs up and speeds off, 391 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 4: so he never gets to see who's exactly in the car. 392 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 4: Was that timeline about right? So if it was ninety 393 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 4: minutes later, the ferry stopped operating at midnight, So if 394 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 4: the car is there ninety minutes later, that meant that 395 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 4: when they. 396 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 3: Left, they probably weren't going to the ferry. 397 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 4: I mean right, because now even though the ferry operator 398 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 4: who was still alive, Jerry Grant, who I did interview, 399 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 4: he was still there till about two am. I think 400 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 4: he just. 401 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had read something that so that you could 402 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: still call it. 403 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 4: So the timeframe is is really interesting, right, And then 404 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: I mean, there's so many interests. Why did Ted swim across? 405 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 4: He says, he swam across. You know, the main question 406 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 4: is why did it take ten hours to report what 407 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 4: had happened. There's interesting records of phone calls that were 408 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 4: made from payphones in the middle of the night. 409 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: So Liz, then what do you think really happened? 410 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 4: Then, well, you have to listen to the podcast. So 411 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 4: it's such a complicated story, Okay, I'll just start off 412 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 4: with that. I probably talked about seventy people, seventy five 413 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 4: people maybe more or in the course of my investigation. 414 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 4: And there were two there were many things that stuck out. 415 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 4: Two things happened at the end that were really interesting. 416 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 4: One was a friend of Ted's who did not allow 417 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 4: me to name him and would not you know, allow 418 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 4: me to you know, identify him in any way. But 419 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: he said years later that Ted had told him that 420 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 4: Mary Joe Kapectney was asleep in the back of the 421 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: car and that he didn't know she was there. So 422 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 4: the next morning the car isn't discovered until the next morning. 423 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 4: It's overturned in a pond they called it a pond 424 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 4: beneath the chap Equittic Bridge, the Dyke Bridge, and the 425 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 4: car's overturned, and when the car's fished out of the water, 426 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 4: there's another woman's purse in the car, not Mary Joe 427 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 4: Capecne's car. The purse belongs to a woman named Rosemary Keo. 428 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 4: Rosemary Keo is one of the Boiler One girls. She's 429 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 4: still alive, and it's her purse in the car, not 430 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 4: Mary Joe Capekney's purse. Now, at the time of the investigation, 431 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 4: the best of my recollection, what she says, or others say, 432 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 4: is that she had gone out earlier that night with 433 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 4: one of the other men who were at the party 434 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 4: to I think it was to get a tape recorder 435 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,719 Speaker 4: or cassette player or something to play music at the party, 436 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 4: and that she had left her purse there, so it 437 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 4: just remains a question why was another woman's purse in 438 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 4: the car? Perhaps, you know, it was because of that, 439 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 4: you know, there's other theories there. So her purse was 440 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 4: still at the rental house that they were all having 441 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 4: the party that night. So the retrieval of the purse, 442 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 4: all the strange things that happened that night and the 443 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 4: next morning, this all becomes sort of part of the 444 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 4: chap Equittic story, right. So there's the Mary Joe's death, 445 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 4: there's what happens to Ted's political future. But there's a 446 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 4: lot of layers. I really feel like it was sort 447 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 4: of like an onion, you know, depending on who you 448 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 4: spoke to. So there's red herring. Sometimes it was easy 449 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 4: to get lost, you know, in a tract of you know, 450 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 4: at one point, I was dealing with the bagmen of Watergate, 451 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 4: because one of them is sent up at the behest 452 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 4: of Richard Nixon the next morning to investigate what happened. 453 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 4: Because don't forget, President Nixon is worried about Ted Kennedy, 454 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 4: you know, as a possible presidential contender. So Nixon is 455 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 4: also very involved. So there's a lot of layers to 456 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 4: the case, there's a lot of theories about what happened, 457 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 4: and then there's a lot of strange things that happened. 458 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: I guess I even am confused as to if she 459 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: was sleeping in the back seat, why is she sleeping 460 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: in the back seat of that car when they're in 461 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: a house that has bedrooms. 462 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 4: Like that even is very strange. The family received a letter. 463 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 4: This was right around the time I was doing the podcast. 464 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 4: I'm not allowed to say too much about the letter, 465 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 4: but I know who wrote the letter, and I refer 466 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 4: to that person as the letter writer, and the letter 467 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 4: writer get together with somebody who was at the party 468 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 4: years later, and that person a letter writer called that 469 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 4: person Betty. I think it was a pseudonym, and the 470 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 4: letter writer said that Betty had said that there was 471 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 4: no There was a very small cottage to my recollection, 472 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 4: I think it was two bedrooms, and that there was 473 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 4: no room for her and no forget they're having a 474 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 4: party and it's a raucous party and there's drinking and 475 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 4: there's music, and you know, they're carousing, and there was 476 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 4: no quiet place for somebody to sleep. And I think 477 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 4: they said Mary Joe had a little too much to 478 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 4: drink so that she went into the backseat of Ted's oldsmobile. 479 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 3: And so after all of this, Ted is only charged 480 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 3: with leaving the scene of an accident after causing personal injury. 481 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 3: And so, I know, you know, there's been talk of 482 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: the fact that there are different rules for Kennedy's than 483 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: for everyone else. What is your take on the process 484 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: of criminal justice after what happened? I mean, how did 485 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 3: we get from such a kind of messy night with 486 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 3: so many open questions to sort of a slap on 487 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 3: the rest. 488 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 4: Right, he's charged with leaving the scene of an accident. 489 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 4: You know, I'm going to quote from this book, if 490 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 4: that's okay with you, because the More just did such 491 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 4: an exhaustive, you know, multi year investigation. So he at 492 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 4: the end of his book he cites an investigation that 493 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 4: the Boston Globe did in nineteen seventy four. Right, this 494 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 4: is just a head of nineteen seventy six, when it's 495 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 4: believed that Ted may you know, run for president. So 496 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 4: I'm just going to read this is from page four twelve. 497 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 4: Senator Kennedy granted a two hour interview to a team 498 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 4: of investigative reporters. Use it from the Globe to discuss 499 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 4: the accident for the first time since the inquest. He 500 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 4: continued to insist his version of the accident was accurate. 501 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 4: The widespread skepticism about his inquest testimony was quote unwarranted 502 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 4: and unjustified, he said, quote I attempted during the course 503 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 4: of the inquest to respond to these questions completely, candidly, honestly, 504 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 4: in to the best of my ability end quote. His 505 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 4: conduct had been quote irrational and indefensible, and inexcusable and inexplicable. 506 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 4: He said, I was at that time obsessed by grief 507 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 4: at the loss of a life. It was strictly a 508 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 4: state of mind. Okay, Now, Leo Gozanda right. But Kennedy 509 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 4: cleared up none of the contradictions involved in the accident 510 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 4: or quote. The nearly one hundred discrepancies in the testimony 511 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 4: and statements by key inquest witnesses, preferential treatment by law 512 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 4: enforcement and judicial officials had saved Kennedy from being charged 513 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 4: with serious crimes, including manslaughter. The Globe concluded in its 514 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 4: four part series routine investigative and judicial procedures had been 515 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 4: either altered or botched numerous times by apprehensive officials and 516 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 4: overwhelming deference to Kennedy's power and prestige. End quote. Justice 517 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 4: was not served, hard questions were not asked of witnesses, 518 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 4: and complaints and indictments not pursued. End quote. So de 519 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 4: More is quoting the Boston Globe that did the investigation 520 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 4: into the piece. I know that's long, but I can't 521 00:28:58,840 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 4: say it better than that. 522 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: No, that's great. I like the apprehensive officials is kind 523 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: of the key there. I feel like in a lot 524 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: of pieces here. 525 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 3: I'm sort of interested in, Like, I guess what I'm 526 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: interested I think what we're interested in is. You know, 527 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: you've spoken to Mary Joekapekney's surviving family, and on the 528 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 3: one hand, at the time it seemed like they also 529 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: you know, they also did not call for an autopsy. 530 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: There was not, from what I understand, a giant amount 531 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: of disagreement between the Kennedy camp and their camp about 532 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 3: how to handle the case. But of course now there 533 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 3: is still a kind of a movement to seek justice, 534 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: whatever that may mean for them. So could you talk 535 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: a little bit about how her surviving relatives have expressed 536 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: themselves to the public and how their image of the 537 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: night has changed over time. 538 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 4: I would say the Kopeknes were not you know, there's 539 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 4: a political machine right that they're dealing with. At the time, 540 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 4: they were modest people. Mary Joe was their only daughter. 541 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 4: They were completely grief stricken. I think what Georgetta explained 542 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: to me was they definitely believed they were going to 543 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 4: get some answers, right from Senator Kennedy or other people 544 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 4: at the party about what really happened, and they're completely 545 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 4: grief stricken. I think at the funeral, I think there's 546 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 4: photos of mister Capecnie holding up Gwen like. It's photos 547 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 4: that are, you know, very difficult, hard to look at, 548 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 4: and so they're completely you know, bref at this time. 549 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 4: So I think there was a sense that they were 550 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 4: going to get answers from their part. This is according 551 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 4: to Georgetta, the cousin, So just to clear that up. 552 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 4: I think they thought they were going to get some answers, 553 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 4: some explanation. Now you know, they're they're pretty private. They 554 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 4: wrote a small self published book they called it Our 555 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 4: Mary Joe, so they have a scholarship in her name. 556 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 4: You know, what Georgetta would said to me a lot 557 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 4: is that they just wanted answers, mostly about what happened, 558 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 4: and mostly about you know, that night, what her mood was. 559 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 4: Why was there so much secrecy surrounding things at the end, 560 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 4: Why the ten hour delay? So I think they mostly 561 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 4: just wanted answers and clarity about what happened, because like 562 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 4: even they couldn't get answers right. And it's was their 563 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 4: you know, their family member. Why is it still shrouded 564 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 4: in so much mystery? 565 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 3: Do they, for lack of a better word, blame the 566 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 3: Kennedy machine for this or do they see it as 567 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: a larger question that is, you know, unfortunately a tragedy 568 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 3: that they will never fully comprehend. What is their relationship 569 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: to the Kennedys. 570 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 4: They mostly just wanted answers. I think they feel like 571 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 4: they had been misled a little bit, you know, And 572 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 4: I think they wanted Mary Joe to be considered as 573 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 4: a person, as a human being, as a young woman, 574 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 4: not you know, blonde drowns. She was a really really 575 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 4: interesting woman. You know, she wanted to go into politics. 576 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 4: She had taught for a year, I think in Alabama. 577 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 4: You know, there was so much idealism in that time, 578 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 4: you know, working for Bobby. I can't remember that was 579 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 4: that must have been before, but she was a really 580 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 4: interesting woman, and I think they wanted, you know, of 581 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 4: course just her to be recognized for who she was, 582 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 4: but also they wanted, you know, they want the truth. 583 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: So it's sort of a twofold idea of justice. They 584 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 3: want the truth about what happened, but they also in 585 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: the media narrative, want her to be more central to 586 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: the story, considering that was the great loss not Ted 587 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 3: Kennedy's political career. 588 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 4: I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I 589 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 4: think that those two things are given. 590 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: I think that's very relatable understandable that when there is 591 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: a tragedy like this that really the most that you 592 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: can have is clarity. That's kind of the best that 593 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: you can hope for, is just to have some clarity 594 00:32:48,480 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: on what happened when on succession. They made this rather 595 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: clear reference to chap equitic. To me, this is one 596 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: of the first things you think of when you think 597 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: about the Kennedys, but for some people it is not 598 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: at the forefront. And I think that that is interesting. 599 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: But I was wondering, like, if you had any thoughts 600 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: about that when that happened on succession or that just 601 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: being you know, sixty years later, back in like the 602 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: pop culture conversation. 603 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 4: You know, I didn't watch Succession. I know it's considered 604 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 4: like incredible and I probably should, but I think it's 605 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 4: incredibly interesting, of course, and it's interesting that the mystery 606 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,959 Speaker 4: lives on all these years later. You know, when I 607 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 4: started looking into it, I think I knew three lines 608 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 4: about that story, right, Something strange happened, A young woman died. 609 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 4: There had been a delay. That's really all I knew then. 610 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 4: And I ended up doing a podcast, and I remember thinking, like, oh, oh, oh, 611 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 4: my god, I have to do a podcast, and I 612 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 4: really don't know anything about it, and why was that? Like, 613 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 4: I mean, I knew other things. I did report a 614 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 4: lot on the Kennedy's for People magazine. I report on 615 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 4: a lot of other things too, but I didn't know. 616 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 4: I did not know that story, right, other than just 617 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 4: sort of that brief right brushstrokes. But then once you 618 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 4: look into it, it's right, everything's converging in that story, right, 619 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 4: political power, privilege, you know, the tenor of the times politics, 620 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 4: so it's you know, it really was one of the 621 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 4: most is one of the most fascinating stories I've ever 622 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 4: looked into. One thing that's so interesting is there are 623 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 4: a lot of people still alive. Now, a lot of 624 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 4: people are gone, but a lot of people are still 625 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 4: alive who lived through it, who played a part, you know, 626 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 4: people in law enforcement. And yet even during the course 627 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 4: of that investigation, people several very key important people died. 628 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 4: Joe Gargan died, Paul Markham died, and that was I 629 00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 4: think even in the course of right around the time 630 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 4: I was doing it. But there are a lot of 631 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 4: people still alive and the like, there's a haunting quality 632 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 4: to that story, to this story, right, like what happened, 633 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 4: you know, just going back to what you said before, 634 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 4: it was really about the truth, right, But the Capetnis 635 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 4: wanted was the truth what happened. And the fact that 636 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 4: we're still talking about it all these years later, right, 637 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 4: why is it? I thinks still not one hundred percent clear. 638 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 4: So you know, there's a Yes, it's a very haunting story. 639 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 4: I was haunted by it. 640 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 3: What was the response after the podcast was released? Did 641 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 3: you hear after the fact, after the final episode was released, 642 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 3: did you hear from anyone if you feel comfortable saying, 643 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 3: did you hear from anyone saying you know, either you 644 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 3: got it right, or how dare you? 645 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: Uh? 646 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 4: You know, I had a there's a Facebook page that 647 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 4: probably hasn't been too active in a long time, but 648 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 4: I had the cover up has a Facebook page, and 649 00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 4: I got some interesting responses that people would send, you know, 650 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 4: notes to us. There was me, several other producers, and 651 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 4: one person said, maybe more than one person said that's 652 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 4: the story. That's what I was told. These people were 653 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 4: connected in various ways. But you know, I think at 654 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 4: the last episode of the podcast, I called the story 655 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 4: like a rashamn story, right, because you'll find this in 656 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 4: the course of your own podcast, right, that there was 657 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 4: different versions about what happened that night. But yes, I 658 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 4: was led to believe that, and I do believe it. 659 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 4: And I did get some responses that said that that 660 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 4: was correct. But you know, these are not people that 661 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 4: go on the record or that I can interview or 662 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 4: that I can even name, And of course, you know, 663 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 4: I have to be open to the idea that something 664 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 4: else might have happened, you know. And I was thinking 665 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 4: about it today because I knew I was gonna, you know, 666 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 4: do the interview with you, and I thought, wow, what if, 667 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 4: you know, maybe something completely different happened that this book. 668 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 4: I cannot recommend it enough. If you're on the beach 669 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 4: some light summer reading, it's said, it's a tour de 670 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 4: force of reporting of and and if you even want 671 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 4: to go deeper. His papers are at Kent State University. 672 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 4: And if there's all, I did a whole episode about 673 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 4: the episode six of the podcast about so Leo Demore 674 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 4: is probably a subject for podcast in and of himself. 675 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 4: And his papers are at Kent State and there's probably 676 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 4: thirteen or fourteen boxes. I had two days to go 677 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 4: through them, and I like, I like, I like, I 678 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,959 Speaker 4: never moved because it's fast. There's a lot of stuff 679 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 4: that don't even make it into that book. And he 680 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 4: interviews almost anybody, So yes, there's a lot of there's 681 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 4: a lot more to the story. How's that? 682 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 3: And that book again is senatorial privilege for anyone listening. Yeah, 683 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 3: And it has a really great, sort of fabulous eighties 684 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 3: cover right now. 685 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 4: It got reissued, got reissued at the time of the documentary. 686 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 4: It's the same book, but it has a different title. 687 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 4: I forgot what they called it. But it's it's an 688 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 4: amazing and his story is interesting and how and how 689 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 4: well he gets people to talk and he got Joe 690 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 4: Gargin right. So Joe Gargan is Ted's cousin, He's one 691 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 4: of the men at the party, and he interviews Joe 692 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 4: Gargin maybe been the only one that really ever interviewed him. 693 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 4: So yes, if you want to keep going on the 694 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 4: chap Equittic story, I highly recommend it. 695 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 3: I think part of what is interesting to us and 696 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 3: why we want to do this podcast is to explore specifically, 697 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 3: like the cultural fascination with the Kennedys. It just is 698 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 3: this enduring American mythology that people keep going back to. 699 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 3: And I think with people like RFK Junior and with 700 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 3: people like Jack Schlossberg, we're kind of in a new 701 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 3: even Patrick Schwarzenegger, who people have, We're kind of in 702 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 3: a new or very kind of slightly weird or different 703 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 3: era of Kennedy worship and Kennedy fascination. So I think 704 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 3: maybe we can end on this like, what do you 705 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 3: think keeps people coming back to the Kennedy is What 706 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: do you think like attracts Americans so much to the 707 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 3: Kennedy story. 708 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, there's not one person to write about, right, 709 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 4: It's not like I'm just your there's how many members 710 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 4: of the Kennedy family are there now, I don't know. 711 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of people to write about. Right, 712 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 4: there's the Shrivers, there's you know, and all the good 713 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 4: works that they've done. There's Rosemary Kennedy. Have you done 714 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 4: a podcast as far that was probably we will, but 715 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 4: if I was going to say the most interesting story, 716 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 4: and there's an incredible book that was written about her 717 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 4: by a woman named Kate Larson and did a cover 718 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 4: story on that. So there's her story. Then there's the 719 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 4: right Then there's the children and the children of and 720 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 4: then there were what generation are we on that, right? 721 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 4: The fourth generation, you know, and then Carrie Kennedy marries 722 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 4: Andrew Cuomo and there's you know, there's her daughters and 723 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 4: all the different you know, some are more public, some 724 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 4: are more private. So you know, the ancestors, I guess 725 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 4: you would say the first generation. Right, that's all pre 726 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 4: the pre social media and even up until John right, 727 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 4: John is pre social media, pre iPhone, So there was 728 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 4: a lot that people didn't know. So there's just I 729 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 4: don't know there, you know, they there's also this real 730 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 4: idealism I think attached to the family, like when you 731 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 4: listen to a speech, well, even when I listened to 732 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 4: a snippet of a speech by Bobby or JFK, how 733 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 4: could you not be inspired. I'm inspired. People don't. Politicians 734 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 4: don't talk like that anymore, right, sort of lofty and 735 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 4: but idealistic and yet easily understandable, right, very connected to 736 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,240 Speaker 4: working people. So they're sort of, you know, very interesting 737 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 4: idealism there that they sort of connected you to something 738 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 4: maybe better than yourselves, deeper than yourselves. And then there's 739 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 4: of course all the tragedies and the scandals and all 740 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 4: the things that you know, surround them. So I don't know, 741 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 4: there's sort of nobody like them. There's so vast and uh, 742 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 4: there's so much good right, and there's so much you know, uh, 743 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 4: dark stuff also connected to them that I would just say, 744 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 4: you know, endlessly, endlessly fascinating. 745 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This is really great to talk 746 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: to you than much. 747 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 3: You're taking the time. This was really great. 748 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 4: Okay, bye everybody. 749 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People. She 750 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: is also the author of the new book, which comes 751 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: out in paperback this fall, JFK. Junior, an intimate oral biography. Liz, 752 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: Thanks so much so that's it for this week's episode. 753 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 3: Next week, we're talking about Carolyn Bessett Kennedy and her 754 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 3: truly immeasurable impact on fashion and her life on the 755 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 3: tabloid spotlight. 756 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all 757 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: things Kennedy every week. 758 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.