Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck
Speaker 1: and Jerry's here too, sitting in in this bowl session
Speaker 1: that we like to call stuff you Should Know to
Speaker 1: shooting the bullets, shooting the breeze. That's right, chewing the fact,
Speaker 1: sling in some facts, m slinging some facts about something
Speaker 1: that is just downright astounding if you ask me, Chuck, Yeah,
Speaker 1: when have we talked about this? Oh, buddy, we talked
Speaker 1: about it, and I think the Doppelganger episode. I feel
Speaker 1: like also in the days of YR we maybe hit
Speaker 1: it at some point briefly. Sure, probably can you transplant ahead? No, jeez, kids,
Speaker 1: digging deep. I don't know if it was in that
Speaker 1: one or not, could have been, but yeah, we've definitely
Speaker 1: talked about it. We should say prosopagnosia, which is face
Speaker 1: blindness more commonly known, which is a neurological condition, to
Speaker 1: just kind of dryly define it right out of the gate,
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and what we're not talking about, although as
Speaker 1: you'll see, it is a condition that does exist on
Speaker 1: a spectrum. But I think they're but they're saying basically though,
Speaker 1: it's not just like I'm not real, real good at
Speaker 1: remembering people's faces. While that can also mean you might
Speaker 1: have a very low on the spectrum version of prosopagnosia,
Speaker 1: it's it's not generally what most people when they say like,
Speaker 1: I'm not good with faces, probably don't have it. It's
Speaker 1: a very clunky way of saying that. It's pretty rare
Speaker 1: and like it doesn't necessarily just have to do with
Speaker 1: how good you are remembering people when you meet them.
Speaker 1: That just means you're an a hole, right, which is
Speaker 1: said because a lot of people with prosopagnosia get kind
Speaker 1: of thought of as that because people don't really understand
Speaker 1: what their condition is. Yeah, it's not yeah, supposedly he's
Speaker 1: self diagnosed. I guess yeah, he's has not been fully diagnosed,
Speaker 1: but he does. Just from reading like recent interviews with him,
Speaker 1: it seems like it's probably the deal with him and
Speaker 1: not just like, hey, I'm busy, but he's you know,
Speaker 1: as you'll see, it's a real struggle. It's not just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not very good with faces. It's you know, you
Speaker 1: may not recognize your family members. If it's severe enough,
Speaker 1: you may not recognize your own face. Yeah, and more more,
Speaker 1: you know, like kind of in a day to day thing.
Speaker 1: I saw it described by I believe it was m.
Speaker 1: Sadie Dingfelder, who is a Washington Post writer and also
Speaker 1: has severe face blindness. She said, I believe it's her.
Speaker 1: Said basically, like you can spend like all day in
Speaker 1: a meeting like a boardroom with somebody, like working closely
Speaker 1: with them the whole time, and then at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, if you both happened to ump into
Speaker 1: each other in the lobby after you know, leaving one
Speaker 1: another side five minutes before, she would not she would
Speaker 1: not recognize that person. Yeah, I mean I will say
Speaker 1: that I have. It's not a superpower, but I've always
Speaker 1: been really, really, really good at remembering faces. There's something
Speaker 1: called super recognizers. I think I might be on that
Speaker 1: if that exists on a spectrum, I think I'm on
Speaker 1: it because I've had some freakishly weird occurrences of remembering
Speaker 1: faces of people I didn't know at all from years before.
Speaker 1: Like even as a kid, I remember like seeing a
Speaker 1: guy at six Flags one time and then seeing him
Speaker 1: like a couple of years later, and I think maybe
Speaker 1: I met him, and then somehow got confirmation it wasn't
Speaker 1: just me thinking, you know, like it wasn't a mistake,
Speaker 1: Like I've always been really good at recognizing faces, is
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You were like, is it him? And
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden he puts on a jean
Speaker 1: jacket with the iHeart six flags patch on the back.
Speaker 1: It is Let's say it may have been something like
Speaker 1: that because the clothes, you'll see the clothes and things
Speaker 1: can be a way to help you remember people for sure. So,
Speaker 1: like you said, the whole thing kind of exists in degrees,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people think that, you know, if
Speaker 1: you have face blindness blindness, which is weird that I
Speaker 1: have trouble saying face blindness too, because the clinical name
Speaker 1: is really difficult to say. If you have face blindness,
Speaker 1: that if somebody knows that it exists and they have
Speaker 1: kind of a general conception of it, they might think that,
Speaker 1: like you don't see faces, like it's that really creepy
Speaker 1: Twilight zone thing where this sister was missing her mouth,
Speaker 1: you know, or everyone looks like Robert the Doll. Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of like that, like but without even eyes or
Speaker 1: a nose, like just a blur or something like that.
Speaker 1: And apparently there is such a degree of it that
Speaker 1: if you saw like a picture of a face maybe
Speaker 1: out of context, like you didn't see it attach to
Speaker 1: somebody's body or whatever, you would think maybe it was
Speaker 1: a rock or just some other roundish object. That there
Speaker 1: is like that degree. Apparently that's pretty rare. What's more
Speaker 1: likely is that you're seeing all the different parts of
Speaker 1: the face. Your brain's just not putting it together in
Speaker 1: a cohesive hole like everybody else's brain does. That's that's
Speaker 1: one big part of it for sure. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think what we're going to do the order we settled
Speaker 1: on is we're going to kind of talk a lot
Speaker 1: about it and then maybe toward the end we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about causes and whether or not it can
Speaker 1: be fixed and stuff like that. So if that's a cliffhanger,
Speaker 1: then there you go, Right, does that count? It? Is?
Speaker 1: It does? There's one other thing we need to point out.
Speaker 1: There's absolutely nothing wrong with people with prosopagnosias like site.
Speaker 1: They can see perfectly fine, right, It's that the sensory
Speaker 1: information that's coming in is not being processed correctly. Right.
Speaker 1: That's just called far sightedness. Yeah, myopia. Yeah, mister McGoo.
Speaker 1: Should we talk about, now, you know what else? The
Speaker 1: deal with Magoo? He couldn't see very well. They always
Speaker 1: joked about this on the podcast Freedom of whether or
Speaker 1: not Magoo had glasses? Uh man, No, they think about it.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he had glasses. Whatever the answer is,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. The opposite is kind of what people
Speaker 1: commonly think. I think he doesn't have classes. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: people when they see people with really thick glasses would
Speaker 1: say like, oh, real Magoo, when in fact people with
Speaker 1: no glasses hurt the magoose. Does that make sense? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it does. It's kind of like misusing loman on the
Speaker 1: totem pole or drink the coolie exactly. You know. All right,
Speaker 1: So should we talk about agnosias in general? Yeah, because
Speaker 1: prosopagnosia is a specific kind of a mental disorder that
Speaker 1: belongs to like a general class of disorders, neurological disorders
Speaker 1: called agnosias, And they are about as fascinating as it
Speaker 1: can get. They also reveal a tremendous amount of how
Speaker 1: our brain works too. Yeah, and it's a Greek if
Speaker 1: you're wondering, basically means absence of knowledge, but medically speaking,
Speaker 1: it means you have some sort of recognition impairment, and
Speaker 1: it is you know, And we'll go through these. They're
Speaker 1: very specific. Ed helped us put this together. And the
Speaker 1: reason it's so specific, I think, is because it has
Speaker 1: to be, because there are some minute differences in some
Speaker 1: of these that make a difference, you know, yeah, for sure,
Speaker 1: make a big difference. All right, So I guess we'll
Speaker 1: start with the three main categories. Color blindness, which we've
Speaker 1: talked about before, is a version of an agnosia, word blindness,
Speaker 1: which I guess you have with reading the words face blindness,
Speaker 1: and what we're talking about today prosopagnosia. But those aren't
Speaker 1: the three categories. Those are three types of visual. The
Speaker 1: three main categories are visual, auditory, in touch right right right,
Speaker 1: visual seems to have the most associated with it. In
Speaker 1: addition to all those other ones you just mentioned, there's
Speaker 1: one called apperceptive, which is where you can't differentiate objects,
Speaker 1: just like a person can't differentiate a face with prosopagnosia.
Speaker 1: Like a person with apperceptive visual agnosia, like you can
Speaker 1: say say, hey, look at that car, and look at
Speaker 1: that toaster over there aren't they really nice to look at,
Speaker 1: And they'd be like, I don't really see any difference
Speaker 1: between those two things that you're pointing out now, And
Speaker 1: I have questions about this. You may not know the
Speaker 1: answer too, about why a toaster is out on a
Speaker 1: street with a car. That's it. No, it's And to
Speaker 1: be fair, toaster and car were probably not great examples
Speaker 1: to use because you take into consideration, as you'll see,
Speaker 1: if you have any of these disorders, you know the
Speaker 1: fact that it's on the street, in a driveway, or
Speaker 1: on a counter in a kitchen. Sure, But what I
Speaker 1: want to know is is do they do they even
Speaker 1: note like the size of something? I don't know. Some
Speaker 1: of these are so exotic that there's like just a
Speaker 1: handful of cases in the entire history of medicine. I
Speaker 1: think a perceptive is a little more common, but I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly how they see it, because like a
Speaker 1: pair of glasses on a coffee table or a remote
Speaker 1: control like that kind of thing makes a little more sense.
Speaker 1: Car and toaster blows my mind. Okay, So I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and confess car and toaster was my example.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get the point across. Okay, I
Speaker 1: just wonder if if it is that severe. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it can be, especially if allow this exists on a spectrum.
Speaker 1: If there's people out there who can look at a
Speaker 1: picture of a face and think it's a rock, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's somebody out there who has a perceptive visual
Speaker 1: agnosia that says that toaster in that car, same thing, buddy.
Speaker 1: All right, all right, fair enough, I'm putting money on
Speaker 1: it now. And you know what we're hoping to do
Speaker 1: is hear from some people, because this is really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Like you said, there's not a ton of as we'll see,
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't come forward because they learn
Speaker 1: to deal with it. You're right, totally. So. Associative is
Speaker 1: another visual one that's an inability to identify objects whereas
Speaker 1: you can, like you can see the coffee cup, you
Speaker 1: can reach out and grab it, but you can't identify
Speaker 1: its use, like I'm holding the thing, but I don't
Speaker 1: know what the heck you do with it, right exactly.
Speaker 1: And then there's another one that sounds man, I think
Speaker 1: this deserves its own short stuff akin autopsia, and it's
Speaker 1: where you can't perceive motion. Yeah, so I saw it
Speaker 1: described as like if a car's coming at you. It
Speaker 1: just is like a series of like it suddenly jumps
Speaker 1: closer and closer and closer. You don't see it moving.
Speaker 1: It's like a series of still images. All of life
Speaker 1: is like that. Like how if you see somebody like
Speaker 1: moving towards you under a strobe light. That's what it's like,
Speaker 1: but no need for the strobe light. So it's like
Speaker 1: a murder scene in a club in a movie exactly.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what life is like for people with can't
Speaker 1: atop to you, Wow, you have your auditory ones. Auditory
Speaker 1: verbal is when you can't recognize a word that you hear.
Speaker 1: They also call it word deafness for obvious reasons. And
Speaker 1: then also under auditory is oh I had all these earlier.
Speaker 1: How do you do you pronounce that G? There? I
Speaker 1: think it's phone agnosia, phone agnosia. Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: I think that is not being able to recognize familiar
Speaker 1: voice and identify that voice right, understand everything they're saying.
Speaker 1: But I would be on this recording right now, as
Speaker 1: and often the case, wondering who is this guy? Right?
Speaker 1: It's kind of like the auditory version of prosopagnosia, right
Speaker 1: with voices instead of faces. There's another one that's called
Speaker 1: tactile agnosia, and it's where you can't recognize an object
Speaker 1: by touch. And I've really thought about this, and the
Speaker 1: best I could come up with is that this would
Speaker 1: be problematic at one of those Halloween parties where they
Speaker 1: pass around a bowl of spaghetti and tell you it's guts.
Speaker 1: It just be lost on you. But that's about the
Speaker 1: worst that could come of it from what I can tell. Okay,
Speaker 1: because you can still use the thing and recognize what
Speaker 1: it's used for. In't that right? I think? So it's
Speaker 1: just when you touch it you don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure like going to turn off the oven
Speaker 1: would be really problematic or something like that. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's that's It just seems like such a limited thing.
Speaker 1: But I'm sure there's much more problems with it than
Speaker 1: I can come up with. If you want to get
Speaker 1: even rarer, here are some more versions of agnosia's auto autotopagnosia,
Speaker 1: which is when you can't recognize and identify specific body
Speaker 1: parts of your of your own body. Oh, there's also
Speaker 1: my favorite Simultan tang Agnosia, Simultan Agnosia. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's it. You got it. Okay. So that one is
Speaker 1: where you can see all sorts of different stuff, all
Speaker 1: the objects, you can identify all the objects in your
Speaker 1: field of viewer in a picture or something. But what
Speaker 1: they're doing together, that worms of cohesive whole a scene
Speaker 1: is just totally lost on you. You would see a
Speaker 1: kid in their pajamas opening a present. There would be
Speaker 1: a tree that's decorated. There would be like a couple
Speaker 1: of parents like watching the kid or standing off to
Speaker 1: the side. You would not put together that this is
Speaker 1: a scene of like a Christmas morning, Like you just
Speaker 1: you just can't put scenes together. And I saw it
Speaker 1: compared to not being able to see the forest from
Speaker 1: the trees. Okay, that makes sense, Yeah it does. That's
Speaker 1: my favorite one right there. Yeah, all these are so tough,
Speaker 1: and it's not I think it's something that's easy for
Speaker 1: people to laugh at, Like if someone said, like, why
Speaker 1: is there a tree in that living room? Right, It's
Speaker 1: it's not funny, you know, and especially when it comes
Speaker 1: to the main topic of face blindness, it can be
Speaker 1: a very debilitating thing. It can be for sure, but
Speaker 1: astoundingly humans who have these conditions are really good at
Speaker 1: figuring out ways to kind of make it through life,
Speaker 1: just kind of worker out and essentially um and we'll
Speaker 1: talk more about that. I say, after a break, how
Speaker 1: about that, let's do it. I want to learn about
Speaker 1: a terroristort and college dactyl, how to take a perfect moment,
Speaker 1: all about fractolki is gone, that's another hun, the Lizzie
Speaker 1: Border murders that I have, all runs on the plane,
Speaker 1: everything Stubby should know. Word up, Jerry, Okay, Chuck, Now,
Speaker 1: I don't feel at all comfortable making any jokes about
Speaker 1: this stuff. You really threw the gauntlet down. Is there
Speaker 1: a tree in your living room, Josh? That's not funny
Speaker 1: covered with lights? It's Halloween. It's not funny. Uh, it
Speaker 1: is not funny. It's a little funny, isn't it. I
Speaker 1: think that one specifically to not recognize a scene. All right.
Speaker 1: I think you can get a yuck or two out
Speaker 1: of that. Okay, Okay, let's move on. Okay. So I
Speaker 1: was saying before the break that people with agnosias, and
Speaker 1: in particular prosopagnosia, learn to just kind of navigate through
Speaker 1: life without the advantages that the rest of us just
Speaker 1: totally take for granted and say, I say, the best
Speaker 1: way to understand prosopagnosia, I just sounded like foghorn leghorn
Speaker 1: for a second. I'll say the best way is to
Speaker 1: understand how just people normally perceive faces. Right. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: this is something that you know when you're grown up
Speaker 1: or whatever. You you just sort of again, you take
Speaker 1: it for granted that this is something that you've always
Speaker 1: been able to do, but it's actually a learned process.
Speaker 1: You develop this over the course of your life. I
Speaker 1: think they say, you know, and it kind of makes sense,
Speaker 1: like sort of in your prepubescent years around twelve, you're
Speaker 1: really spongy at that age at soaking up faces and
Speaker 1: getting better, and it just gets better in time. I
Speaker 1: think we peek in our third ease. And this also
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. If you grow up in
Speaker 1: a city, you're better if you're exposed to, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of faces than someone who might grow up
Speaker 1: in a small town seeing the same people over and over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so the whole thing of recognizing a face, we've
Speaker 1: figured out, and by we I mean you and me, Chuck,
Speaker 1: is that it's a two step process, and one is
Speaker 1: that that visual information comes in and it gets processed
Speaker 1: into a hole. So like we see faces as holes
Speaker 1: generally most most people do. And a person's face when
Speaker 1: we're taking it in, it's not necessarily whole. We're putting
Speaker 1: all of these pieces together automatically instantly. It's called holistic processing.
Speaker 1: So you've got a face now in your head, and
Speaker 1: then you run it against a database essentially to find
Speaker 1: out if it's familiar or not, and all this is
Speaker 1: taking like microseconds to do. Yeah, and then if it
Speaker 1: comes up like, yes, this is familiar, then you have
Speaker 1: what's called recollection memory. I believe if I recall correctly,
Speaker 1: and that is this biographical information that we attached to
Speaker 1: each person. They've figured out that it seems like that
Speaker 1: is attached to the face, and that that's when you
Speaker 1: recognize somebody. If you stop and think about it, you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just inundated with this flood of information about that
Speaker 1: person that I know. It's they are figuring out it's
Speaker 1: triggered by the face. So they they're finding out that
Speaker 1: prosopagnosia patients not only can't recognize faces, they can't retain
Speaker 1: the biographical information that other people can because it seems
Speaker 1: to be filed away by a person's face. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: like you said, you pull up that file and in
Speaker 1: your mind, what's happening so so fast is you know,
Speaker 1: crooked nose, cheek scar. I went to high school with
Speaker 1: that guy. It's Ralph. I saw that guy it's six
Speaker 1: flags once. It'd be funny if actually went to my
Speaker 1: high school. That's where I knew him. But Ralph. So
Speaker 1: let's say, let's take the example of Ralph. You know
Speaker 1: that Ralph likes long walks on the beach, that Ralph
Speaker 1: doesn't like cockroaches, he's scared of them. You know that
Speaker 1: Ralph has a really cool car that you like to
Speaker 1: ride in sometimes, like you just know this stuff, like
Speaker 1: you just know it, and it's part of it's part
Speaker 1: of recognition. And again that's triggered by a face. So
Speaker 1: people who have pazzo pagnosia have to kind of make
Speaker 1: it through the world without that. And so for you
Speaker 1: and me and people who can easily recognize faces, it's
Speaker 1: it's really hard to imagine not being able to do that.
Speaker 1: But it came up with a really good thought experiment.
Speaker 1: I think is the sea apples? Are we there? I
Speaker 1: think so? Sure. Yeah. I mean this is kind of
Speaker 1: like a Memento, you know, the dude and Memento came
Speaker 1: up with a system, and it's all about developing a
Speaker 1: system that works. So when you see Ralph, you think
Speaker 1: you've learned crooked nose, cheek, scar on the left face.
Speaker 1: I know that's my friend, but there's still not that recognition,
Speaker 1: which I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. But
Speaker 1: in this case, if you're talking about like apples, you
Speaker 1: show someone an apple and then you put that apple
Speaker 1: on a coffee table with like forty apple buddies, and
Speaker 1: then you say, pick up that apple, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: you'd be lost, to be very frustrating, But if you
Speaker 1: were told to do this several times or you know,
Speaker 1: given years or whatever, you would eventually develop a system
Speaker 1: to memorizing how to recognize that apple, which could be
Speaker 1: the most minute little features of the apple, from the
Speaker 1: length of the stem to the dent in the top
Speaker 1: corner that you don't want to eat. Yeah, and if
Speaker 1: your entire social life, and in some cases your own
Speaker 1: survival was predicated I'm being able to recognize individual apples,
Speaker 1: you would figure out a way to do that. And
Speaker 1: so if you just replace identifying individual apples with identifying faces,
Speaker 1: that's what people with pazo pagnosia have to learn how
Speaker 1: to do, and they do it, like you said. And
Speaker 1: it turns out that if you, um kind of study
Speaker 1: how prosopagnosiacs real world from I've seen it a ton
Speaker 1: of places, including people who know what they're talking about. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: that you'll find that there are a bunch of little
Speaker 1: cues and mannerisms and things that that we have that
Speaker 1: we're not aware of that really make us individuals beyond
Speaker 1: just what our faces look like. Yeah, because we're literally
Speaker 1: just talking the face. So if your friend has a
Speaker 1: purple mohawk, then use that like like that's a you
Speaker 1: want all your friends to have weird hair. You know,
Speaker 1: you grab onto that with all your might. That's right.
Speaker 1: Don't let go with the of that mohawk. Uh you
Speaker 1: you know, you can still see the eyes and recognize
Speaker 1: like eye color or like I said, you know, if
Speaker 1: your friend has like you know, broke their nose or
Speaker 1: they have a scar on their face or things like that,
Speaker 1: or how big their ears are or how they walk,
Speaker 1: or what they their mannerisms. Mannerisms are huge or yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously things like tattoos or if they have stinky armpits,
Speaker 1: or like there's sure, there's a lot of ways you
Speaker 1: gotta get that one right or that could be very embarrassing.
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of things that we don't
Speaker 1: need to use but are still in our own memory banks.
Speaker 1: If you don't have prosopagnosia, but just filter out the
Speaker 1: face and those are what everyone else with prosopagnosia is using. Right.
Speaker 1: There's also a lot of reliance on friends and family
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, here comes Ralph. Remember you like
Speaker 1: his car, right, and you'd be like, Ralph, good to
Speaker 1: see you. Friend. Can I ride in your car? And
Speaker 1: Ralph and say, sure, I appreciate you recognizing me. Of
Speaker 1: course you can ride in my car. The problem is
Speaker 1: you're not always around your friends and family. Some people
Speaker 1: are single and don't live in the same town as
Speaker 1: their family. Some people's family don't like them. There's all
Speaker 1: sorts of reasons that you might not be able to
Speaker 1: rely on prompts all the time, And there's also problems
Speaker 1: with the strategy of using all sorts of little details
Speaker 1: to identify people too, because people change their hair color
Speaker 1: exactly once you enter that business world. That purple mohawks
Speaker 1: probably gone, right, Yeah, people change their hair color, people
Speaker 1: change their clothes. It can be really difficult to keep
Speaker 1: up with that stuff. And so there's other potentially better
Speaker 1: ways of identifying people. And it seems to have to
Speaker 1: do with basically teaching yourself to memorize the people who
Speaker 1: are important in your life. Like you would choose a
Speaker 1: select group of people and be like, these are the
Speaker 1: people I really need to recognize, and you would get
Speaker 1: to studying them, like photographs of them at length, yeah,
Speaker 1: and which you know that's can also be a little
Speaker 1: tricky because let's say you have a friend with Prizo
Speaker 1: Pagnosia and you know that this is their strategy, and
Speaker 1: they still don't remember you, and you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I didn't make that list of extra study that's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah awkward, but no, that is that is one thing
Speaker 1: they say. And I think I get the picture that
Speaker 1: this is sort of a um sort of a beginning
Speaker 1: coping method, which is like get to know the people
Speaker 1: around you and get used to like doing that, and
Speaker 1: then I feel like the circle probably broadens from there
Speaker 1: once you're like kind of have your techniques down, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would guess so for sure. Another one that I
Speaker 1: thought was pretty interesting, a coping skill for people with
Speaker 1: face blindness is using conversation skills. Using general small talk,
Speaker 1: you can kind of create like certain situations with conversation
Speaker 1: to see how a person reacts, like if you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, would you vote for right? Exactly? So like
Speaker 1: you can use conversation to figure out who you're talking to.
Speaker 1: And I also saw that a lot of people with
Speaker 1: prosopagnosia walk around half pretending like they know everybody, so
Speaker 1: that if they come upon somebody who actually knows them,
Speaker 1: they can already be primed to be like, yeah, how's
Speaker 1: it going, kind of things like overly friendly, almost yes
Speaker 1: exactly that they're all smiles all the time, and they're
Speaker 1: doing that. It's like a coping mechanism to basically trick
Speaker 1: people into thinking that they recognize them. And then also
Speaker 1: they found at least Sadie Dingfelder has found that if
Speaker 1: you get people to talk about themselves, if you ask questions,
Speaker 1: first of all, they're going to love talking to you,
Speaker 1: because people love talking about themselves. But then secondly, they're
Speaker 1: going to give up enough biographical information pretty quickly that
Speaker 1: you're going to know who you're talking to. This is
Speaker 1: fascinating stuff, isn't it. Yeah, it's almost like being a
Speaker 1: really skilled detective slash detective interviewer. Well Sadie Dingfelder attributes
Speaker 1: her success as a reporter for The Washington Post as
Speaker 1: being able being comfortable talking to strangers because she said,
Speaker 1: everyone's a stranger in my life, and then also like
Speaker 1: it really helped her honor conversation and interviewing skills too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's I feel
Speaker 1: like sometimes there are these disorders that end up having
Speaker 1: you certain superpowers at the same time. For sure, that's
Speaker 1: a great way to put it. If you are someone
Speaker 1: with Prosa pagnosia and you were watching a TV show
Speaker 1: or a movie, that can be problematic from episode to
Speaker 1: episode because you may literally not know who this person
Speaker 1: is on the screen, and that could make it very hard.
Speaker 1: And I know it's you know, it's like, oh, you're
Speaker 1: only watching a movie, but like that'd be really frustrating
Speaker 1: a consuming entertainment was there was an ade layer of
Speaker 1: difficulty to that. You know, it's an impossibility. From what
Speaker 1: I can tell, there's this guy named Tim Rymel who
Speaker 1: wrote a little article about what it's like to live
Speaker 1: with it, and he was saying, like, you just you
Speaker 1: just can't You just stop watching after like ten minutes,
Speaker 1: because you just lose patience. It'd be kind of like
Speaker 1: watching a double feature of Happiness in Life during Wartime? Wait,
Speaker 1: which one was Life during Wartime? That was the sequel
Speaker 1: to Happiness where he kept the same characters but replaced
Speaker 1: them with all new actors. I don't think I saw
Speaker 1: that one. It's really weird to watch. It's really discomforting.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's already just horrible, like inhumane material to
Speaker 1: begin with, Todd Sollins and stuff. Yeah, but just it's
Speaker 1: just really unsettling to see new people playing the same
Speaker 1: characters and trying to keep up with who they are.
Speaker 1: So actually, that'd be a really good exercise in what
Speaker 1: it's like to be a prozo pagnosiac. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I would recommend everybody watching Happiness in Life during Wartime.
Speaker 1: Maybe read a little bit about it first before you
Speaker 1: watch it, and then if you go ahead and watch it,
Speaker 1: don't play me. But if you're good with those movies.
Speaker 1: That would be a pretty good way to be Like,
Speaker 1: this is what it's like to have prazo pagnosia. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would imagine for entertainment consumption, music and reading become
Speaker 1: even more important, you know. Yeah, And you know you
Speaker 1: can imagine isolating that can be too, and not just
Speaker 1: like oh I can't sit in and talk about TV
Speaker 1: shows with other people, but it's an isolated in condition,
Speaker 1: to be sure. Like the people that have overcome it
Speaker 1: to the point where they're extroverted and overly friendly, like
Speaker 1: hats off to them, you know, yeah, because a lot
Speaker 1: of people go the opposite route. They become very introverted, yeah,
Speaker 1: and don't like to go out because they're so they
Speaker 1: become so socially anxious about the shame and embarrassment of
Speaker 1: not recognizing somebody and how awkward it can be, especially
Speaker 1: if that person has no idea what their condition is,
Speaker 1: that they just stop going out. It's just easier to
Speaker 1: stay home, and so it can be a really isolating condition.
Speaker 1: And then also all the stuff we've been talking about,
Speaker 1: all those coping skills that is really mentally exhausting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like it's so just natural to us to just recognize
Speaker 1: somebody by the face. That to have to study somebody
Speaker 1: and remember it and memorize pictures of your friends and
Speaker 1: loved ones. That is a lot of work. So it
Speaker 1: can be isolating, it can be exhausting, and then, I guess, sadly,
Speaker 1: at least for now, those coping skills are also basically
Speaker 1: the extent of treatment for prosopagnosia as as it currently stands.
Speaker 1: That's kind of it. It's it's learned all these strategies
Speaker 1: to deal with it to whatever extent you're comfortable, and
Speaker 1: and that's about all you can do. It's it's basically, uh, well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about the permanency of the condition,
Speaker 1: but it's it's almost always permanent. Um yeah, let's hold
Speaker 1: off on that though, because there there are a couple
Speaker 1: of different ways you can get it that we'll get to. Okay,
Speaker 1: But there have been it feels like the last few
Speaker 1: decades there's been a lot more research than there ever
Speaker 1: was before. There are, of course, you know, previous to
Speaker 1: you know, the last couple of decades. You may not
Speaker 1: even like your doctor probably and this might still be
Speaker 1: the case in some cases, your doctor may not even
Speaker 1: know like what the heck is going on? It's that rare.
Speaker 1: So nowadays there are support groups and there a therapist
Speaker 1: and people might generally and that's you know, another reason
Speaker 1: we're doing this is it's sort of always like to
Speaker 1: help get the word out on these rare things. But
Speaker 1: previous to a couple of decades ago, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what it would have been like living in the world.
Speaker 1: It's probably just a secret that you keep. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it was chalked up. Oliver Sacks actually had it. The
Speaker 1: fame neurologist to Awakenings was based on his work, and
Speaker 1: he wrote awesome books like The Man Who Mystic his
Speaker 1: wife for a hat, There you go, and an Anthropologist
Speaker 1: on Mars I think was one of his two. He
Speaker 1: had like severely, and he just chalked it up to
Speaker 1: being kind of flighty, kind of absent minded, to being
Speaker 1: aloof and a lot of people just kind of chalk
Speaker 1: it up to that and just go through life because
Speaker 1: they don't. They weren't aware of it. And he was
Speaker 1: a neurologist and he wasn't making aware of it, and
Speaker 1: he had it. Apparently Jane goodall the primatologists had it.
Speaker 1: And Chuck Close the awesome portraitist. You look up his work.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen it before. He frequently makes giant
Speaker 1: canvases of faces, close up of faces, but they're made
Speaker 1: of little squares and he's really good, but it just
Speaker 1: kind of alters what the person looks like. And then
Speaker 1: once you figure out that he has pazo pagnosia, and
Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, that's really interesting that he dedicated his
Speaker 1: career to faces. You know. Yeah, and I'm telling you
Speaker 1: that Brad Pitt People magazine article I read, he says that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of been a thorn in his
Speaker 1: side where people think he's a jerk or whatever. And
Speaker 1: he said, for a while he was trying to use
Speaker 1: a strategy of like, you know, because of course you
Speaker 1: meet way more people when you're Brad Pitt than the
Speaker 1: average person. Sure, just constantly meeting new people because of
Speaker 1: your job. But he said he used his strategy for
Speaker 1: a while like you know, hey remind me, like in
Speaker 1: a really friendly way, like hey remind me where we met.
Speaker 1: And he said sometimes that was even worse, like people
Speaker 1: get more offended if you've asked out loud, which is
Speaker 1: like that's the really the right way to handle that
Speaker 1: when you don't recognize someone in life, you know, it
Speaker 1: can be very awkward. But the right way to handle
Speaker 1: this say I'm so sorry, like I know we've met,
Speaker 1: but who were you again? And you know it's a
Speaker 1: tough thing to say. Imagine saying that over and over
Speaker 1: and over in your life. Right, and one of those
Speaker 1: people who got deeply offended with Shania Twain, I'm guessing
Speaker 1: I never thought i'd say this, but poor Brad Pitt, Right.
Speaker 1: I think another part of it too, that actually makes
Speaker 1: it a little more difficult on him than the average
Speaker 1: person is because he's such a celebrity. He's put up
Speaker 1: on a pedestal and so people him not recognizing people
Speaker 1: makes him he's already primed to be viewed as arrogant
Speaker 1: or can you think he's above everybody else? And then
Speaker 1: if you combine his condition with that, I would guess
Speaker 1: it's harder on him than most people. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: will tell you this is that when someone is famous
Speaker 1: and they do recognize you know, the the craft service
Speaker 1: person or the guy who parks their car, like, people
Speaker 1: make a really big deal out of that, like he's
Speaker 1: such a good dude, he parked this guy's car like
Speaker 1: three times a year and he remember me every time.
Speaker 1: That ends up to be like a legend passed around
Speaker 1: on Reddit, right kind of thing exactly. So you want
Speaker 1: to take our second break and come back and talk
Speaker 1: about diagnosing prosopagnosia and then what's going on in the brain. Yes, please,
Speaker 1: I want to learn about a terris ort and college verydactyl,
Speaker 1: how to take a purgect moment, all about fractol thinks gone,
Speaker 1: that's another hun the Lizzie Border murders all runs on
Speaker 1: the plane. Everything should know. Word up, Jerry. So if
Speaker 1: you go back in the way back machine and look
Speaker 1: at the earliest cases of this, you'll see that some
Speaker 1: of the first cases that they found were diagnosed because
Speaker 1: of a like a brain injury. And that is one
Speaker 1: of the two ways that you can get this is
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the parts of the brain is
Speaker 1: sec but is either by some sort of injury or
Speaker 1: maybe a tumor pressing on this part of the brain.
Speaker 1: But what they found is that is far and away
Speaker 1: the more rare kind, and that it's usually something that
Speaker 1: you're born with, yeah, the congenital kind, but the acquired
Speaker 1: kind is so dramatic when you suddenly lose the ability
Speaker 1: to recognize faces. Those were the first cases that were described.
Speaker 1: And the guy who coined the term prosopagnosia is Joaquim Bottomer,
Speaker 1: and he studied a World War Two veterans who'd been
Speaker 1: shot in the head and couldn't recognize people any longer.
Speaker 1: And I had a certain idea and conception of what
Speaker 1: the World War Two veterans Bottomer was studying were like
Speaker 1: until I found out that he was a German neurologist
Speaker 1: and that he was studying them in like nineteen forty four.
Speaker 1: So apparently the earliest ones were Nazis, who were the
Speaker 1: ones who kind of turned the world onto the idea
Speaker 1: of prazo pagnosia. Oh interest, and that jarring. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like there was this episode of the Office where
Speaker 1: Dwight's talking about how his grandfather fought in World War
Speaker 1: Two and was captured in Hell as a pow, and
Speaker 1: then he says something at the end that reveals that
Speaker 1: his grandfather was German. It was a Nazi, And it's
Speaker 1: just such like a jarring turn because you're just thinking
Speaker 1: about this greatest generation, you know, person over there, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, just kicking Germany around in Europe, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's not, Well, that's a pretty funny
Speaker 1: character thing because only Dwight Trute would brag about right,
Speaker 1: you know, or hold up their Nazi grandfather as a
Speaker 1: as a wounded veteran. That's funny. It was. It was
Speaker 1: good character development for sure. So as far as how
Speaker 1: rare it is, we've talked a little bit about it
Speaker 1: and said, you know, it's really rare. I've seen some
Speaker 1: stuff that that it's not as rare as you might think.
Speaker 1: I think psychology today said two percent of the population
Speaker 1: or somewhere on that spectrum. Yeah, about one and fifty.
Speaker 1: And that's not just them. That's pretty widespread that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not that rare. But I get the
Speaker 1: feeling that it's the spectrum side of things where it
Speaker 1: gets more and more rare to the people that see
Speaker 1: faces rock. But if you put fifty people in a room,
Speaker 1: one of those people is going to be thinking who
Speaker 1: are all these people? Yeah? So um yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think it does have to do with the spectrum thing,
Speaker 1: like you're saying too, you know, like there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people out there who are just not very good
Speaker 1: at it, but there's just some sort of breakdown, but
Speaker 1: it's not a full breakdown in one of the processes.
Speaker 1: The problem is because it is generally rare, and because
Speaker 1: it is pretty recent that people have just started to
Speaker 1: understand it. I keep seeing the Oliver Sacks wrote an
Speaker 1: article which I read is in The New Yorker in
Speaker 1: twenty ten. I just read it like last night or whatever,
Speaker 1: but not to say like, oh, I read it way back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I keep seeing that sited is like basically the
Speaker 1: beginning of spreading awareness of facebindness. It was that recent.
Speaker 1: So there's plenty of doctors who've had people come to
Speaker 1: them with prosopagnosia and other agnosias and just had no
Speaker 1: idea what they were looking at and then probably misdiagnosed them.
Speaker 1: So they probably misdiagnosed the kid is having a learning
Speaker 1: disability because they weren't picking up on words that they
Speaker 1: were reading but they could, you know, hear them just fine,
Speaker 1: or that they had some sort of problem with their
Speaker 1: site with prosopagnosia, and so the people were left to
Speaker 1: kind of, like we talked about, figure out workarounds to
Speaker 1: kind of make it through life before people understood that
Speaker 1: there was such a thing as prosopagnosia. Well, they didn't
Speaker 1: even come up with a really great test for it
Speaker 1: until two thousand and six when they started using and
Speaker 1: I think it's still kind of the most widely used test,
Speaker 1: the Cambridge Face memory test. And this is when they
Speaker 1: show you faces that it's just faces. There's there's no hair,
Speaker 1: there's no clothes or anything like that, so no medallions.
Speaker 1: No medallion's disgust too would be a dead giveaway. So
Speaker 1: just a face against a black background, only faces, and
Speaker 1: then on the next screen, it will show you this
Speaker 1: face along with two other faces, and you're supposed to
Speaker 1: select the face that you just saw on the slide before.
Speaker 1: Right the computer shouts who's it right at you every time.
Speaker 1: It's really jarring. But one of the troubling parts about
Speaker 1: this test is that they only had white male faces
Speaker 1: on the test for a long time. I think just
Speaker 1: this year they finally started featuring women's faces, still only
Speaker 1: white faces, which I don't know if that was purposeful.
Speaker 1: I didn't see I looked. I didn't see anything about
Speaker 1: any ethnic group being more apt to suffer from this,
Speaker 1: did you No? I don't get it, especially with the
Speaker 1: new version debuted into twenty twenty two. And the problem
Speaker 1: with it is is not just because it's not inclusive,
Speaker 1: it's a flaw on the test. Yeah, because there's something
Speaker 1: called the other race effect. It's very well documented. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you were raised generally among Yeah, if you were
Speaker 1: raised generally among white people, and you're a white person,
Speaker 1: you're going to have trouble differentiating people of other ethnic groups.
Speaker 1: It's just and vice versa. If you're Asian, same thing,
Speaker 1: if you're a Black, same thing, And if you were
Speaker 1: raised around a mixed group of ethnicities, you're actually going
Speaker 1: to be really good at differentiating among those ethnicities. But
Speaker 1: the thing is most people aren't raised among a bunch
Speaker 1: of ethnicities, and so if you show someone who is,
Speaker 1: say black, a bunch of Caucasian faces, it might not
Speaker 1: be that they're face blind. It might just be the
Speaker 1: other race effect is coming into into play and that
Speaker 1: they're being misdiagnosed. Actually, yeah, super interesting. We talked in
Speaker 1: the Doppelganger episode, which was very recently, about the fusiform gyrus,
Speaker 1: which is the part of the brain that they have
Speaker 1: kind of finally figured out is really where face recognition
Speaker 1: happens kind of full stop. That's where all the action
Speaker 1: takes place. And I think they even have called it
Speaker 1: now the fusiform face area. And if you have any
Speaker 1: sort of damage to the fusiform gyrus, and again this
Speaker 1: is the more rare kind, and is he acquired or
Speaker 1: if you have a tumor pressing against it or something
Speaker 1: like that, then that's probably going to be the cause.
Speaker 1: It's damage your fusiform gyrus, right, And they found that
Speaker 1: for congenital patients, it seems that their fusiform gyrus is
Speaker 1: thicker than someone who doesn't have prosopagnosia. And the theory
Speaker 1: that I read there was a guy named doctor Joe
Speaker 1: de Guidas who was a Harvard neuroscientist, and he was
Speaker 1: on the American Psychology Associations or Psychological Associations Speaking of
Speaker 1: Psychology podcast, and he was basically saying that the theory
Speaker 1: is that as you get as you're exposed to more
Speaker 1: and more faces, your fusiform gyrus just gets rid of
Speaker 1: like neural connections it doesn't need. It gets so like
Speaker 1: lean and mean and efficient that a thinner fusiform gyrus
Speaker 1: is going to be better at recognizing faces than a
Speaker 1: thicker one. Was that doctor's name really what I think?
Speaker 1: Joe Degudis Deguttas. Okay, he said the guide us at first,
Speaker 1: and I was like, that would be really interesting if
Speaker 1: a doctor had a last name with ITAs at the
Speaker 1: end of it, right, Okay, de Guttis or goodis it's
Speaker 1: d e g u t I s let's just call
Speaker 1: him Joe from now on, doctor Joe. Doctor Joe sounds
Speaker 1: like a chiropractor. The interesting thing about these UM experiments
Speaker 1: they've done with the fuse from Gyrus, and that's what
Speaker 1: we talked about in the Doppelganger EPP was we now
Speaker 1: have an answer of whether or not we evolved like
Speaker 1: a very specific function to recognize a face because we
Speaker 1: have UM that. You know, the theories were out there
Speaker 1: about like did we recognize like a prey hunting a
Speaker 1: predator to like recognize different predators, And now we have
Speaker 1: an answer to that, and that is yes, yeah, so
Speaker 1: they think that UM. There was like a really large
Speaker 1: debate going on, Chuck, where it's like, Okay, do we
Speaker 1: actually have like a section of the brain that just
Speaker 1: does faces. That seems unlikely. Instead, the opposite explanation was
Speaker 1: that we have an object recognition system, the same thing
Speaker 1: as recognizing a rock or a car or a toaster,
Speaker 1: and that faces were just another object, but because they
Speaker 1: were so vital to our social life and survival, that
Speaker 1: we were experts at recognizing faces, but really to our
Speaker 1: brain they were just another object. And the fusiform that
Speaker 1: the confirmation that the fusiform gyrus just does faces kind
Speaker 1: of throws that out the window because in the in
Speaker 1: the experiment that we talked about in the Doppelganger episode,
Speaker 1: this guy had his his um, the fusiform gyrus electro stimulated,
Speaker 1: and the researcher's face just morphed. But his tie didn't change.
Speaker 1: None of the objects in the room, the chairs didn't change,
Speaker 1: so objects remain the same, just his face changed. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it basically said, yes, we have a fusiform gyrus. It
Speaker 1: functions for recognizing faces and that is all it does.
Speaker 1: That's how important facial recognition is. Well, and imagine in
Speaker 1: you know, the earliest days of different tuk tuks mulling
Speaker 1: around the savannah is friend or enemy? You know, it
Speaker 1: became very important, very quickly to recognize people that have
Speaker 1: done you wrong or done you right right, exactly for sure.
Speaker 1: And I think also that probably also supports the other
Speaker 1: race effect too, where it's like you don't need to
Speaker 1: differentiate between somebody like an outside or an outgroup. You
Speaker 1: just need to know like they're part of the outgroup.
Speaker 1: It's the people in your in group that you need
Speaker 1: to have more specified social connections with. And yeah, we're
Speaker 1: just we've socially evolved enough that now we have a
Speaker 1: problem with this relic, this remnant from our evolutionary past
Speaker 1: that we still haven't physically evolved out of. We just
Speaker 1: socially evolved past it. And it's just problematic now. I
Speaker 1: wonder if there's anything too. And a short stuff on
Speaker 1: on having a face that's naturally uh the kindest way
Speaker 1: to say this average, No, naturally adverse looking. What do
Speaker 1: you mean like scowli like, you know, like resting scowl face.
Speaker 1: Let's go BRF. I don't know what that is. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you later, Okay, No, but you know what I
Speaker 1: mean is is some people have like a their resting
Speaker 1: look is just not inviting. Let's just say, and I
Speaker 1: don't mean any not attractive or not at all. I
Speaker 1: mean like literally like that person isn't doesn't look like
Speaker 1: someone that would welcome me to come up and say hello. Right,
Speaker 1: they look angry, and they're like, this is how I
Speaker 1: always look. I'm sorry. I think we should look into
Speaker 1: that for a short stuff, because I'm sure that's research
Speaker 1: into it. Yeah. Yeah, because most of the time when
Speaker 1: you do talk to them or whatever, they like light up.
Speaker 1: Their facial expression totally changes. So you hope that it's
Speaker 1: not just a charade, that they're just their faces their
Speaker 1: normal resting faces just happens to look like that they're
Speaker 1: not mad all the time. Who knows, let's get to
Speaker 1: the bottom of it. As far as animals go. If
Speaker 1: you're wondering kind of to put a cherry on top
Speaker 1: of this thing, there has been research that have shown
Speaker 1: that recognizing faces in maccaques has been detected maccaque monkeys,
Speaker 1: so it's been around longer than we have, and that
Speaker 1: they've found that other non primates like are good at
Speaker 1: this sheep. Apparently you're really good. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that transfers to goats are across the street. Neighborhoodn't have
Speaker 1: goats any longer, which is very sad, but I feel
Speaker 1: like those goats or maybe they just recognized us as
Speaker 1: the people coming across from that house, but we would
Speaker 1: always bring them food scraps and when we walk out
Speaker 1: the door, they would come run into the fence and
Speaker 1: braying and braying. So we never did an experiment where
Speaker 1: we came from around the corner or something. I'm curious
Speaker 1: if it was the same with goats with us creepy eyes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wonder too, Or was it like your scent that
Speaker 1: they were picking up on? What was it you know?
Speaker 1: Or was it faces? It was probably just us coming
Speaker 1: out of the house with a bucket of food. Everything right,
Speaker 1: every other day it would be my guess. So prazo pagnoja. Huh,
Speaker 1: good one, I think so too. If you have prosopagnoja,
Speaker 1: please write in and let us know what it's like.
Speaker 1: And if you didn't realize you had prosopagnoja until you
Speaker 1: listen to this episode, please also write in and let
Speaker 1: us know that. And in the meantime, I think it's
Speaker 1: time for a listener mail. That's right. I'm going to
Speaker 1: call this a gentle correction or not a correction actually,
Speaker 1: just a question answered, which we always love. Hey guys
Speaker 1: live in the high desert of California. I listen to
Speaker 1: the show whenever I'm in the car on my hour
Speaker 1: long drive to the LA area. Today's show you mentioned,
Speaker 1: and this is the one on fake towns. You mentioned
Speaker 1: how the Boeing plant and Seattle had camouflaged their factory
Speaker 1: with a fake town on the roof, and you were
Speaker 1: wrapping it up, and I think one of you said
Speaker 1: something about wondering if the West Coast was ever bombed,
Speaker 1: and I think Chuck said no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I was wrong. California was indeed shelled from offshore by
Speaker 1: a Japanese submarine on February twenty third, nineteen forty two,
Speaker 1: just north of Galida, a town called Elwood. The submarine
Speaker 1: took aim at a rich Field oil storage facility and
Speaker 1: landed between twelve and twenty five rounds, destroying a pumphouse,
Speaker 1: defended Derek and giving credit or credits due. I first
Speaker 1: heard about this incident while watching an episode of Huel
Speaker 1: Houser's California Gold, a show on public television. Casey et
Speaker 1: out of LA. The pace of the link, if you're interested,
Speaker 1: could be a good subject of its own. The day
Speaker 1: California got bombed, and that is from Craig Tim in
Speaker 1: Rosamond to California. Very nice. Thanks a lot of Craig.
Speaker 1: That was indeed a gentle question, answered her question, gently
Speaker 1: answered short. I kind of got her on too. If
Speaker 1: you want to be like Craig and gently answer one
Speaker 1: of our questions, or make a correction or just say hi,
Speaker 1: it does not matter. We're always open to an email
Speaker 1: from you. You can wrap it up, spank it on
Speaker 1: the bottom, and send it off to Stuff Podcasts at
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production
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