1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: and Jerry's here too, sitting in in this bowl session 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: that we like to call stuff you Should Know to 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: shooting the bullets, shooting the breeze. That's right, chewing the fact, 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: sling in some facts, m slinging some facts about something 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: that is just downright astounding if you ask me, Chuck, Yeah, 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: when have we talked about this? Oh, buddy, we talked 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: about it, and I think the Doppelganger episode. I feel 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: like also in the days of YR we maybe hit 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: it at some point briefly. Sure, probably can you transplant ahead? No, jeez, kids, 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: digging deep. I don't know if it was in that 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: one or not, could have been, but yeah, we've definitely 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: talked about it. We should say prosopagnosia, which is face 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: blindness more commonly known, which is a neurological condition, to 16 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: just kind of dryly define it right out of the gate, 17 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and what we're not talking about, although as 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: you'll see, it is a condition that does exist on 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 1: a spectrum. But I think they're but they're saying basically though, 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: it's not just like I'm not real, real good at 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: remembering people's faces. While that can also mean you might 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: have a very low on the spectrum version of prosopagnosia, 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: it's it's not generally what most people when they say like, 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm not good with faces, probably don't have it. It's 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: a very clunky way of saying that. It's pretty rare 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: and like it doesn't necessarily just have to do with 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: how good you are remembering people when you meet them. 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: That just means you're an a hole, right, which is 29 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: said because a lot of people with prosopagnosia get kind 30 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: of thought of as that because people don't really understand 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: what their condition is. Yeah, it's not yeah, supposedly he's 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: self diagnosed. I guess yeah, he's has not been fully diagnosed, 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: but he does. Just from reading like recent interviews with him, 34 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: it seems like it's probably the deal with him and 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: not just like, hey, I'm busy, but he's you know, 36 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: as you'll see, it's a real struggle. It's not just like, oh, 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm not very good with faces. It's you know, you 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: may not recognize your family members. If it's severe enough, 39 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: you may not recognize your own face. Yeah, and more more, 40 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: you know, like kind of in a day to day thing. 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: I saw it described by I believe it was m. 42 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: Sadie Dingfelder, who is a Washington Post writer and also 43 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: has severe face blindness. She said, I believe it's her. 44 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: Said basically, like you can spend like all day in 45 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: a meeting like a boardroom with somebody, like working closely 46 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: with them the whole time, and then at the end 47 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: of the day, if you both happened to ump into 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: each other in the lobby after you know, leaving one 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: another side five minutes before, she would not she would 50 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: not recognize that person. Yeah, I mean I will say 51 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: that I have. It's not a superpower, but I've always 52 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: been really, really, really good at remembering faces. There's something 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: called super recognizers. I think I might be on that 54 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: if that exists on a spectrum, I think I'm on 55 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: it because I've had some freakishly weird occurrences of remembering 56 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: faces of people I didn't know at all from years before. 57 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: Like even as a kid, I remember like seeing a 58 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: guy at six Flags one time and then seeing him 59 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: like a couple of years later, and I think maybe 60 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: I met him, and then somehow got confirmation it wasn't 61 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: just me thinking, you know, like it wasn't a mistake, 62 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: Like I've always been really good at recognizing faces, is 63 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You were like, is it him? And 64 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden he puts on a jean 65 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: jacket with the iHeart six flags patch on the back. 66 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: It is Let's say it may have been something like 67 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: that because the clothes, you'll see the clothes and things 68 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: can be a way to help you remember people for sure. So, 69 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: like you said, the whole thing kind of exists in degrees, 70 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of people think that, you know, if 71 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: you have face blindness blindness, which is weird that I 72 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: have trouble saying face blindness too, because the clinical name 73 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: is really difficult to say. If you have face blindness, 74 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: that if somebody knows that it exists and they have 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: kind of a general conception of it, they might think that, 76 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: like you don't see faces, like it's that really creepy 77 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: Twilight zone thing where this sister was missing her mouth, 78 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: you know, or everyone looks like Robert the Doll. Yeah, 79 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: kind of like that, like but without even eyes or 80 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: a nose, like just a blur or something like that. 81 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: And apparently there is such a degree of it that 82 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: if you saw like a picture of a face maybe 83 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: out of context, like you didn't see it attach to 84 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: somebody's body or whatever, you would think maybe it was 85 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: a rock or just some other roundish object. That there 86 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: is like that degree. Apparently that's pretty rare. What's more 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: likely is that you're seeing all the different parts of 88 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: the face. Your brain's just not putting it together in 89 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: a cohesive hole like everybody else's brain does. That's that's 90 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: one big part of it for sure. Yeah, And I 91 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: think what we're going to do the order we settled 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: on is we're going to kind of talk a lot 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: about it and then maybe toward the end we're going 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: to talk about causes and whether or not it can 95 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: be fixed and stuff like that. So if that's a cliffhanger, 96 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: then there you go, Right, does that count? It? Is? 97 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: It does? There's one other thing we need to point out. 98 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: There's absolutely nothing wrong with people with prosopagnosias like site. 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: They can see perfectly fine, right, It's that the sensory 100 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: information that's coming in is not being processed correctly. Right. 101 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: That's just called far sightedness. Yeah, myopia. Yeah, mister McGoo. 102 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: Should we talk about, now, you know what else? The 103 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: deal with Magoo? He couldn't see very well. They always 104 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: joked about this on the podcast Freedom of whether or 105 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: not Magoo had glasses? Uh man, No, they think about it. 106 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he had glasses. Whatever the answer is, 107 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: I can't remember. The opposite is kind of what people 108 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: commonly think. I think he doesn't have classes. Yeah, so 109 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: people when they see people with really thick glasses would 110 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: say like, oh, real Magoo, when in fact people with 111 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: no glasses hurt the magoose. Does that make sense? Yeah, 112 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: it does. It's kind of like misusing loman on the 113 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: totem pole or drink the coolie exactly. You know. All right, 114 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: So should we talk about agnosias in general? Yeah, because 115 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: prosopagnosia is a specific kind of a mental disorder that 116 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: belongs to like a general class of disorders, neurological disorders 117 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: called agnosias, And they are about as fascinating as it 118 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: can get. They also reveal a tremendous amount of how 119 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: our brain works too. Yeah, and it's a Greek if 120 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: you're wondering, basically means absence of knowledge, but medically speaking, 121 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: it means you have some sort of recognition impairment, and 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: it is you know, And we'll go through these. They're 123 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: very specific. Ed helped us put this together. And the 124 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: reason it's so specific, I think, is because it has 125 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: to be, because there are some minute differences in some 126 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: of these that make a difference, you know, yeah, for sure, 127 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: make a big difference. All right, So I guess we'll 128 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: start with the three main categories. Color blindness, which we've 129 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: talked about before, is a version of an agnosia, word blindness, 130 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: which I guess you have with reading the words face blindness, 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: and what we're talking about today prosopagnosia. But those aren't 132 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: the three categories. Those are three types of visual. The 133 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: three main categories are visual, auditory, in touch right right right, 134 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: visual seems to have the most associated with it. In 135 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: addition to all those other ones you just mentioned, there's 136 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: one called apperceptive, which is where you can't differentiate objects, 137 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: just like a person can't differentiate a face with prosopagnosia. 138 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Like a person with apperceptive visual agnosia, like you can 139 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: say say, hey, look at that car, and look at 140 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: that toaster over there aren't they really nice to look at, 141 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: And they'd be like, I don't really see any difference 142 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: between those two things that you're pointing out now, And 143 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: I have questions about this. You may not know the 144 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: answer too, about why a toaster is out on a 145 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: street with a car. That's it. No, it's And to 146 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: be fair, toaster and car were probably not great examples 147 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: to use because you take into consideration, as you'll see, 148 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: if you have any of these disorders, you know the 149 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: fact that it's on the street, in a driveway, or 150 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: on a counter in a kitchen. Sure, But what I 151 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: want to know is is do they do they even 152 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: note like the size of something? I don't know. Some 153 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: of these are so exotic that there's like just a 154 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: handful of cases in the entire history of medicine. I 155 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: think a perceptive is a little more common, but I 156 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: don't know exactly how they see it, because like a 157 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: pair of glasses on a coffee table or a remote 158 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: control like that kind of thing makes a little more sense. 159 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: Car and toaster blows my mind. Okay, So I'm just 160 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and confess car and toaster was my example. 161 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get the point across. Okay, I 162 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: just wonder if if it is that severe. I'm sure 163 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: it can be, especially if allow this exists on a spectrum. 164 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: If there's people out there who can look at a 165 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: picture of a face and think it's a rock, I'm 166 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: sure there's somebody out there who has a perceptive visual 167 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: agnosia that says that toaster in that car, same thing, buddy. 168 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: All right, all right, fair enough, I'm putting money on 169 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: it now. And you know what we're hoping to do 170 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: is hear from some people, because this is really fascinating. 171 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Like you said, there's not a ton of as we'll see, 172 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't come forward because they learn 173 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: to deal with it. You're right, totally. So. Associative is 174 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: another visual one that's an inability to identify objects whereas 175 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: you can, like you can see the coffee cup, you 176 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: can reach out and grab it, but you can't identify 177 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: its use, like I'm holding the thing, but I don't 178 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: know what the heck you do with it, right exactly. 179 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: And then there's another one that sounds man, I think 180 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: this deserves its own short stuff akin autopsia, and it's 181 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: where you can't perceive motion. Yeah, so I saw it 182 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: described as like if a car's coming at you. It 183 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: just is like a series of like it suddenly jumps 184 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: closer and closer and closer. You don't see it moving. 185 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: It's like a series of still images. All of life 186 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: is like that. Like how if you see somebody like 187 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: moving towards you under a strobe light. That's what it's like, 188 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: but no need for the strobe light. So it's like 189 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: a murder scene in a club in a movie exactly. 190 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: That's exactly what life is like for people with can't 191 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: atop to you, Wow, you have your auditory ones. Auditory 192 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: verbal is when you can't recognize a word that you hear. 193 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: They also call it word deafness for obvious reasons. And 194 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: then also under auditory is oh I had all these earlier. 195 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: How do you do you pronounce that G? There? I 196 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: think it's phone agnosia, phone agnosia. Okay, that makes sense. 197 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: I think that is not being able to recognize familiar 198 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: voice and identify that voice right, understand everything they're saying. 199 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: But I would be on this recording right now, as 200 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: and often the case, wondering who is this guy? Right? 201 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the auditory version of prosopagnosia, right 202 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: with voices instead of faces. There's another one that's called 203 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: tactile agnosia, and it's where you can't recognize an object 204 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: by touch. And I've really thought about this, and the 205 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: best I could come up with is that this would 206 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: be problematic at one of those Halloween parties where they 207 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: pass around a bowl of spaghetti and tell you it's guts. 208 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: It just be lost on you. But that's about the 209 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: worst that could come of it from what I can tell. Okay, 210 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: because you can still use the thing and recognize what 211 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: it's used for. In't that right? I think? So it's 212 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: just when you touch it you don't know what it is. 213 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: So I'm sure like going to turn off the oven 214 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: would be really problematic or something like that. But um, yeah, 215 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: it's it's that's It just seems like such a limited thing. 216 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: But I'm sure there's much more problems with it than 217 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: I can come up with. If you want to get 218 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: even rarer, here are some more versions of agnosia's auto autotopagnosia, 219 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: which is when you can't recognize and identify specific body 220 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: parts of your of your own body. Oh, there's also 221 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: my favorite Simultan tang Agnosia, Simultan Agnosia. Yeah, I think 222 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: that's it. You got it. Okay. So that one is 223 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: where you can see all sorts of different stuff, all 224 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: the objects, you can identify all the objects in your 225 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: field of viewer in a picture or something. But what 226 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: they're doing together, that worms of cohesive whole a scene 227 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: is just totally lost on you. You would see a 228 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: kid in their pajamas opening a present. There would be 229 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: a tree that's decorated. There would be like a couple 230 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: of parents like watching the kid or standing off to 231 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: the side. You would not put together that this is 232 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: a scene of like a Christmas morning, Like you just 233 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: you just can't put scenes together. And I saw it 234 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: compared to not being able to see the forest from 235 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: the trees. Okay, that makes sense, Yeah it does. That's 236 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: my favorite one right there. Yeah, all these are so tough, 237 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: and it's not I think it's something that's easy for 238 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: people to laugh at, Like if someone said, like, why 239 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: is there a tree in that living room? Right, It's 240 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: it's not funny, you know, and especially when it comes 241 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: to the main topic of face blindness, it can be 242 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: a very debilitating thing. It can be for sure, but 243 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: astoundingly humans who have these conditions are really good at 244 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: figuring out ways to kind of make it through life, 245 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: just kind of worker out and essentially um and we'll 246 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: talk more about that. I say, after a break, how 247 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: about that, let's do it. I want to learn about 248 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: a terroristort and college dactyl, how to take a perfect moment, 249 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: all about fractolki is gone, that's another hun, the Lizzie 250 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: Border murders that I have, all runs on the plane, 251 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: everything Stubby should know. Word up, Jerry, Okay, Chuck, Now, 252 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: I don't feel at all comfortable making any jokes about 253 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: this stuff. You really threw the gauntlet down. Is there 254 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: a tree in your living room, Josh? That's not funny 255 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: covered with lights? It's Halloween. It's not funny. Uh, it 256 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: is not funny. It's a little funny, isn't it. I 257 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: think that one specifically to not recognize a scene. All right. 258 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: I think you can get a yuck or two out 259 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: of that. Okay, Okay, let's move on. Okay. So I 260 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: was saying before the break that people with agnosias, and 261 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: in particular prosopagnosia, learn to just kind of navigate through 262 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: life without the advantages that the rest of us just 263 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: totally take for granted and say, I say, the best 264 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: way to understand prosopagnosia, I just sounded like foghorn leghorn 265 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: for a second. I'll say the best way is to 266 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: understand how just people normally perceive faces. Right. Yeah, So 267 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: this is something that you know when you're grown up 268 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: or whatever. You you just sort of again, you take 269 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: it for granted that this is something that you've always 270 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: been able to do, but it's actually a learned process. 271 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: You develop this over the course of your life. I 272 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: think they say, you know, and it kind of makes sense, 273 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: like sort of in your prepubescent years around twelve, you're 274 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: really spongy at that age at soaking up faces and 275 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: getting better, and it just gets better in time. I 276 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: think we peek in our third ease. And this also 277 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. If you grow up in 278 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: a city, you're better if you're exposed to, you know, 279 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: a lot of faces than someone who might grow up 280 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: in a small town seeing the same people over and over. Yeah, 281 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: And so the whole thing of recognizing a face, we've 282 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: figured out, and by we I mean you and me, Chuck, 283 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: is that it's a two step process, and one is 284 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: that that visual information comes in and it gets processed 285 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: into a hole. So like we see faces as holes 286 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: generally most most people do. And a person's face when 287 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: we're taking it in, it's not necessarily whole. We're putting 288 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: all of these pieces together automatically instantly. It's called holistic processing. 289 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: So you've got a face now in your head, and 290 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: then you run it against a database essentially to find 291 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: out if it's familiar or not, and all this is 292 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: taking like microseconds to do. Yeah, and then if it 293 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: comes up like, yes, this is familiar, then you have 294 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: what's called recollection memory. I believe if I recall correctly, 295 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: and that is this biographical information that we attached to 296 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: each person. They've figured out that it seems like that 297 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: is attached to the face, and that that's when you 298 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: recognize somebody. If you stop and think about it, you're like, oh, yeah, 299 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: I'm just inundated with this flood of information about that 300 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: person that I know. It's they are figuring out it's 301 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: triggered by the face. So they they're finding out that 302 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: prosopagnosia patients not only can't recognize faces, they can't retain 303 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: the biographical information that other people can because it seems 304 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: to be filed away by a person's face. Yeah, and 305 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: like you said, you pull up that file and in 306 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: your mind, what's happening so so fast is you know, 307 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: crooked nose, cheek scar. I went to high school with 308 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: that guy. It's Ralph. I saw that guy it's six 309 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: flags once. It'd be funny if actually went to my 310 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: high school. That's where I knew him. But Ralph. So 311 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: let's say, let's take the example of Ralph. You know 312 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: that Ralph likes long walks on the beach, that Ralph 313 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: doesn't like cockroaches, he's scared of them. You know that 314 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: Ralph has a really cool car that you like to 315 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: ride in sometimes, like you just know this stuff, like 316 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: you just know it, and it's part of it's part 317 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: of recognition. And again that's triggered by a face. So 318 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: people who have pazzo pagnosia have to kind of make 319 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: it through the world without that. And so for you 320 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: and me and people who can easily recognize faces, it's 321 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: it's really hard to imagine not being able to do that. 322 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: But it came up with a really good thought experiment. 323 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: I think is the sea apples? Are we there? I 324 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: think so? Sure. Yeah. I mean this is kind of 325 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: like a Memento, you know, the dude and Memento came 326 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: up with a system, and it's all about developing a 327 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: system that works. So when you see Ralph, you think 328 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: you've learned crooked nose, cheek, scar on the left face. 329 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: I know that's my friend, but there's still not that recognition, 330 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: which I can't imagine how frustrating that must be. But 331 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: in this case, if you're talking about like apples, you 332 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: show someone an apple and then you put that apple 333 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: on a coffee table with like forty apple buddies, and 334 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: then you say, pick up that apple, and it's you know, 335 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: you'd be lost, to be very frustrating, But if you 336 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: were told to do this several times or you know, 337 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: given years or whatever, you would eventually develop a system 338 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: to memorizing how to recognize that apple, which could be 339 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: the most minute little features of the apple, from the 340 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: length of the stem to the dent in the top 341 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: corner that you don't want to eat. Yeah, and if 342 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: your entire social life, and in some cases your own 343 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: survival was predicated I'm being able to recognize individual apples, 344 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: you would figure out a way to do that. And 345 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: so if you just replace identifying individual apples with identifying faces, 346 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: that's what people with pazo pagnosia have to learn how 347 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: to do, and they do it, like you said. And 348 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: it turns out that if you, um kind of study 349 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: how prosopagnosiacs real world from I've seen it a ton 350 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: of places, including people who know what they're talking about. Yeah, um, 351 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: that you'll find that there are a bunch of little 352 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: cues and mannerisms and things that that we have that 353 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: we're not aware of that really make us individuals beyond 354 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: just what our faces look like. Yeah, because we're literally 355 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: just talking the face. So if your friend has a 356 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: purple mohawk, then use that like like that's a you 357 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: want all your friends to have weird hair. You know, 358 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: you grab onto that with all your might. That's right. 359 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: Don't let go with the of that mohawk. Uh you 360 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, you can still see the eyes and recognize 361 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: like eye color or like I said, you know, if 362 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: your friend has like you know, broke their nose or 363 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: they have a scar on their face or things like that, 364 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: or how big their ears are or how they walk, 365 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: or what they their mannerisms. Mannerisms are huge or yeah, 366 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: obviously things like tattoos or if they have stinky armpits, 367 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: or like there's sure, there's a lot of ways you 368 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: gotta get that one right or that could be very embarrassing. 369 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of things that we don't 370 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: need to use but are still in our own memory banks. 371 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: If you don't have prosopagnosia, but just filter out the 372 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: face and those are what everyone else with prosopagnosia is using. Right. 373 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 1: There's also a lot of reliance on friends and family 374 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, here comes Ralph. Remember you like 375 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: his car, right, and you'd be like, Ralph, good to 376 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: see you. Friend. Can I ride in your car? And 377 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: Ralph and say, sure, I appreciate you recognizing me. Of 378 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: course you can ride in my car. The problem is 379 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: you're not always around your friends and family. Some people 380 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: are single and don't live in the same town as 381 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: their family. Some people's family don't like them. There's all 382 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: sorts of reasons that you might not be able to 383 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: rely on prompts all the time, And there's also problems 384 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: with the strategy of using all sorts of little details 385 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: to identify people too, because people change their hair color 386 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: exactly once you enter that business world. That purple mohawks 387 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: probably gone, right, Yeah, people change their hair color, people 388 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: change their clothes. It can be really difficult to keep 389 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: up with that stuff. And so there's other potentially better 390 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: ways of identifying people. And it seems to have to 391 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: do with basically teaching yourself to memorize the people who 392 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: are important in your life. Like you would choose a 393 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: select group of people and be like, these are the 394 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: people I really need to recognize, and you would get 395 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: to studying them, like photographs of them at length, yeah, 396 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: and which you know that's can also be a little 397 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: tricky because let's say you have a friend with Prizo 398 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Pagnosia and you know that this is their strategy, and 399 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: they still don't remember you, and you're like, oh, okay, 400 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: I didn't make that list of extra study that's right. 401 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah awkward, but no, that is that is one thing 402 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: they say. And I think I get the picture that 403 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: this is sort of a um sort of a beginning 404 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: coping method, which is like get to know the people 405 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: around you and get used to like doing that, and 406 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: then I feel like the circle probably broadens from there 407 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: once you're like kind of have your techniques down, Yeah, 408 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: I would guess so for sure. Another one that I 409 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: thought was pretty interesting, a coping skill for people with 410 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: face blindness is using conversation skills. Using general small talk, 411 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: you can kind of create like certain situations with conversation 412 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: to see how a person reacts, like if you're like, yeah, 413 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, would you vote for right? Exactly? So like 414 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: you can use conversation to figure out who you're talking to. 415 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: And I also saw that a lot of people with 416 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: prosopagnosia walk around half pretending like they know everybody, so 417 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: that if they come upon somebody who actually knows them, 418 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: they can already be primed to be like, yeah, how's 419 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: it going, kind of things like overly friendly, almost yes 420 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: exactly that they're all smiles all the time, and they're 421 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: doing that. It's like a coping mechanism to basically trick 422 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: people into thinking that they recognize them. And then also 423 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: they found at least Sadie Dingfelder has found that if 424 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: you get people to talk about themselves, if you ask questions, 425 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: first of all, they're going to love talking to you, 426 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: because people love talking about themselves. But then secondly, they're 427 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: going to give up enough biographical information pretty quickly that 428 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: you're going to know who you're talking to. This is 429 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: fascinating stuff, isn't it. Yeah, it's almost like being a 430 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: really skilled detective slash detective interviewer. Well Sadie Dingfelder attributes 431 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: her success as a reporter for The Washington Post as 432 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: being able being comfortable talking to strangers because she said, 433 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: everyone's a stranger in my life, and then also like 434 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: it really helped her honor conversation and interviewing skills too. Yeah, 435 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's I feel 436 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: like sometimes there are these disorders that end up having 437 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: you certain superpowers at the same time. For sure, that's 438 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: a great way to put it. If you are someone 439 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: with Prosa pagnosia and you were watching a TV show 440 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: or a movie, that can be problematic from episode to 441 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: episode because you may literally not know who this person 442 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: is on the screen, and that could make it very hard. 443 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: And I know it's you know, it's like, oh, you're 444 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: only watching a movie, but like that'd be really frustrating 445 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: a consuming entertainment was there was an ade layer of 446 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: difficulty to that. You know, it's an impossibility. From what 447 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: I can tell, there's this guy named Tim Rymel who 448 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: wrote a little article about what it's like to live 449 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: with it, and he was saying, like, you just you 450 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: just can't You just stop watching after like ten minutes, 451 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: because you just lose patience. It'd be kind of like 452 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: watching a double feature of Happiness in Life during Wartime? Wait, 453 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: which one was Life during Wartime? That was the sequel 454 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: to Happiness where he kept the same characters but replaced 455 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: them with all new actors. I don't think I saw 456 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: that one. It's really weird to watch. It's really discomforting. 457 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's already just horrible, like inhumane material to 458 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: begin with, Todd Sollins and stuff. Yeah, but just it's 459 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: just really unsettling to see new people playing the same 460 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: characters and trying to keep up with who they are. 461 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: So actually, that'd be a really good exercise in what 462 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: it's like to be a prozo pagnosiac. I don't know 463 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: if I would recommend everybody watching Happiness in Life during Wartime. 464 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: Maybe read a little bit about it first before you 465 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: watch it, and then if you go ahead and watch it, 466 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: don't play me. But if you're good with those movies. 467 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: That would be a pretty good way to be Like, 468 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: this is what it's like to have prazo pagnosia. Yeah, 469 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: I would imagine for entertainment consumption, music and reading become 470 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: even more important, you know. Yeah, And you know you 471 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: can imagine isolating that can be too, and not just 472 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: like oh I can't sit in and talk about TV 473 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: shows with other people, but it's an isolated in condition, 474 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: to be sure. Like the people that have overcome it 475 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 1: to the point where they're extroverted and overly friendly, like 476 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: hats off to them, you know, yeah, because a lot 477 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: of people go the opposite route. They become very introverted, yeah, 478 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: and don't like to go out because they're so they 479 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: become so socially anxious about the shame and embarrassment of 480 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: not recognizing somebody and how awkward it can be, especially 481 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: if that person has no idea what their condition is, 482 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: that they just stop going out. It's just easier to 483 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: stay home, and so it can be a really isolating condition. 484 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: And then also all the stuff we've been talking about, 485 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: all those coping skills that is really mentally exhausting. Yeah, 486 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: Like it's so just natural to us to just recognize 487 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: somebody by the face. That to have to study somebody 488 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: and remember it and memorize pictures of your friends and 489 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: loved ones. That is a lot of work. So it 490 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: can be isolating, it can be exhausting, and then, I guess, sadly, 491 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: at least for now, those coping skills are also basically 492 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: the extent of treatment for prosopagnosia as as it currently stands. 493 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: That's kind of it. It's it's learned all these strategies 494 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: to deal with it to whatever extent you're comfortable, and 495 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: and that's about all you can do. It's it's basically, uh, well, 496 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about the permanency of the condition, 497 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: but it's it's almost always permanent. Um yeah, let's hold 498 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: off on that though, because there there are a couple 499 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: of different ways you can get it that we'll get to. Okay, 500 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: But there have been it feels like the last few 501 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: decades there's been a lot more research than there ever 502 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: was before. There are, of course, you know, previous to 503 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: you know, the last couple of decades. You may not 504 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: even like your doctor probably and this might still be 505 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: the case in some cases, your doctor may not even 506 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: know like what the heck is going on? It's that rare. 507 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: So nowadays there are support groups and there a therapist 508 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: and people might generally and that's you know, another reason 509 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: we're doing this is it's sort of always like to 510 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: help get the word out on these rare things. But 511 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: previous to a couple of decades ago, I can't imagine 512 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: what it would have been like living in the world. 513 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 1: It's probably just a secret that you keep. Yeah, And 514 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: it was chalked up. Oliver Sacks actually had it. The 515 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: fame neurologist to Awakenings was based on his work, and 516 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: he wrote awesome books like The Man Who Mystic his 517 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: wife for a hat, There you go, and an Anthropologist 518 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: on Mars I think was one of his two. He 519 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: had like severely, and he just chalked it up to 520 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: being kind of flighty, kind of absent minded, to being 521 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: aloof and a lot of people just kind of chalk 522 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: it up to that and just go through life because 523 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: they don't. They weren't aware of it. And he was 524 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: a neurologist and he wasn't making aware of it, and 525 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: he had it. Apparently Jane goodall the primatologists had it. 526 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: And Chuck Close the awesome portraitist. You look up his work. 527 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen it before. He frequently makes giant 528 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: canvases of faces, close up of faces, but they're made 529 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: of little squares and he's really good, but it just 530 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: kind of alters what the person looks like. And then 531 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: once you figure out that he has pazo pagnosia, and 532 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, that's really interesting that he dedicated his 533 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: career to faces. You know. Yeah, and I'm telling you 534 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: that Brad Pitt People magazine article I read, he says that, 535 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of been a thorn in his 536 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,239 Speaker 1: side where people think he's a jerk or whatever. And 537 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: he said, for a while he was trying to use 538 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: a strategy of like, you know, because of course you 539 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: meet way more people when you're Brad Pitt than the 540 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: average person. Sure, just constantly meeting new people because of 541 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: your job. But he said he used his strategy for 542 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: a while like you know, hey remind me, like in 543 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: a really friendly way, like hey remind me where we met. 544 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: And he said sometimes that was even worse, like people 545 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: get more offended if you've asked out loud, which is 546 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: like that's the really the right way to handle that 547 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: when you don't recognize someone in life, you know, it 548 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: can be very awkward. But the right way to handle 549 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: this say I'm so sorry, like I know we've met, 550 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: but who were you again? And you know it's a 551 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: tough thing to say. Imagine saying that over and over 552 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: and over in your life. Right, and one of those 553 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: people who got deeply offended with Shania Twain, I'm guessing 554 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: I never thought i'd say this, but poor Brad Pitt, Right. 555 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: I think another part of it too, that actually makes 556 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: it a little more difficult on him than the average 557 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: person is because he's such a celebrity. He's put up 558 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: on a pedestal and so people him not recognizing people 559 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: makes him he's already primed to be viewed as arrogant 560 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: or can you think he's above everybody else? And then 561 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: if you combine his condition with that, I would guess 562 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: it's harder on him than most people. Yeah, and I 563 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: will tell you this is that when someone is famous 564 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: and they do recognize you know, the the craft service 565 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: person or the guy who parks their car, like, people 566 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: make a really big deal out of that, like he's 567 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: such a good dude, he parked this guy's car like 568 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: three times a year and he remember me every time. 569 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: That ends up to be like a legend passed around 570 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: on Reddit, right kind of thing exactly. So you want 571 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: to take our second break and come back and talk 572 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: about diagnosing prosopagnosia and then what's going on in the brain. Yes, please, 573 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: I want to learn about a terris ort and college verydactyl, 574 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: how to take a purgect moment, all about fractol thinks gone, 575 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: that's another hun the Lizzie Border murders all runs on 576 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: the plane. Everything should know. Word up, Jerry. So if 577 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: you go back in the way back machine and look 578 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: at the earliest cases of this, you'll see that some 579 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: of the first cases that they found were diagnosed because 580 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: of a like a brain injury. And that is one 581 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: of the two ways that you can get this is 582 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the parts of the brain is 583 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: sec but is either by some sort of injury or 584 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: maybe a tumor pressing on this part of the brain. 585 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: But what they found is that is far and away 586 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: the more rare kind, and that it's usually something that 587 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: you're born with, yeah, the congenital kind, but the acquired 588 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: kind is so dramatic when you suddenly lose the ability 589 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: to recognize faces. Those were the first cases that were described. 590 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: And the guy who coined the term prosopagnosia is Joaquim Bottomer, 591 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: and he studied a World War Two veterans who'd been 592 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 1: shot in the head and couldn't recognize people any longer. 593 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: And I had a certain idea and conception of what 594 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: the World War Two veterans Bottomer was studying were like 595 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: until I found out that he was a German neurologist 596 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: and that he was studying them in like nineteen forty four. 597 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: So apparently the earliest ones were Nazis, who were the 598 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: ones who kind of turned the world onto the idea 599 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: of prazo pagnosia. Oh interest, and that jarring. It's kind 600 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: of like there was this episode of the Office where 601 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: Dwight's talking about how his grandfather fought in World War 602 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: Two and was captured in Hell as a pow, and 603 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: then he says something at the end that reveals that 604 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: his grandfather was German. It was a Nazi, And it's 605 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: just such like a jarring turn because you're just thinking 606 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: about this greatest generation, you know, person over there, Yeah, yeah, 607 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, just kicking Germany around in Europe, and all 608 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's not, Well, that's a pretty funny 609 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: character thing because only Dwight Trute would brag about right, 610 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, or hold up their Nazi grandfather as a 611 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: as a wounded veteran. That's funny. It was. It was 612 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: good character development for sure. So as far as how 613 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: rare it is, we've talked a little bit about it 614 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: and said, you know, it's really rare. I've seen some 615 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: stuff that that it's not as rare as you might think. 616 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: I think psychology today said two percent of the population 617 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: or somewhere on that spectrum. Yeah, about one and fifty. 618 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: And that's not just them. That's pretty widespread that. Yeah, 619 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that's not that rare. But I get the 620 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: feeling that it's the spectrum side of things where it 621 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: gets more and more rare to the people that see 622 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: faces rock. But if you put fifty people in a room, 623 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: one of those people is going to be thinking who 624 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: are all these people? Yeah? So um yeah, And I 625 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: think it does have to do with the spectrum thing, 626 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: like you're saying too, you know, like there's a lot 627 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: of people out there who are just not very good 628 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: at it, but there's just some sort of breakdown, but 629 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: it's not a full breakdown in one of the processes. 630 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: The problem is because it is generally rare, and because 631 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: it is pretty recent that people have just started to 632 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: understand it. I keep seeing the Oliver Sacks wrote an 633 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: article which I read is in The New Yorker in 634 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: twenty ten. I just read it like last night or whatever, 635 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 1: but not to say like, oh, I read it way back. Yeah, 636 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: but I keep seeing that sited is like basically the 637 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: beginning of spreading awareness of facebindness. It was that recent. 638 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: So there's plenty of doctors who've had people come to 639 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: them with prosopagnosia and other agnosias and just had no 640 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: idea what they were looking at and then probably misdiagnosed them. 641 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: So they probably misdiagnosed the kid is having a learning 642 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: disability because they weren't picking up on words that they 643 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: were reading but they could, you know, hear them just fine, 644 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: or that they had some sort of problem with their 645 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: site with prosopagnosia, and so the people were left to 646 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: kind of, like we talked about, figure out workarounds to 647 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: kind of make it through life before people understood that 648 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: there was such a thing as prosopagnosia. Well, they didn't 649 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: even come up with a really great test for it 650 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: until two thousand and six when they started using and 651 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: I think it's still kind of the most widely used test, 652 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: the Cambridge Face memory test. And this is when they 653 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: show you faces that it's just faces. There's there's no hair, 654 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: there's no clothes or anything like that, so no medallions. 655 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: No medallion's disgust too would be a dead giveaway. So 656 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: just a face against a black background, only faces, and 657 00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: then on the next screen, it will show you this 658 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: face along with two other faces, and you're supposed to 659 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: select the face that you just saw on the slide before. 660 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: Right the computer shouts who's it right at you every time. 661 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 1: It's really jarring. But one of the troubling parts about 662 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: this test is that they only had white male faces 663 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: on the test for a long time. I think just 664 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: this year they finally started featuring women's faces, still only 665 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: white faces, which I don't know if that was purposeful. 666 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: I didn't see I looked. I didn't see anything about 667 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: any ethnic group being more apt to suffer from this, 668 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: did you No? I don't get it, especially with the 669 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: new version debuted into twenty twenty two. And the problem 670 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: with it is is not just because it's not inclusive, 671 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: it's a flaw on the test. Yeah, because there's something 672 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: called the other race effect. It's very well documented. Yeah, 673 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: if you were raised generally among Yeah, if you were 674 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: raised generally among white people, and you're a white person, 675 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: you're going to have trouble differentiating people of other ethnic groups. 676 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: It's just and vice versa. If you're Asian, same thing, 677 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: if you're a Black, same thing, And if you were 678 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: raised around a mixed group of ethnicities, you're actually going 679 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: to be really good at differentiating among those ethnicities. But 680 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: the thing is most people aren't raised among a bunch 681 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: of ethnicities, and so if you show someone who is, 682 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: say black, a bunch of Caucasian faces, it might not 683 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: be that they're face blind. It might just be the 684 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: other race effect is coming into into play and that 685 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: they're being misdiagnosed. Actually, yeah, super interesting. We talked in 686 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: the Doppelganger episode, which was very recently, about the fusiform gyrus, 687 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: which is the part of the brain that they have 688 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: kind of finally figured out is really where face recognition 689 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: happens kind of full stop. That's where all the action 690 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: takes place. And I think they even have called it 691 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: now the fusiform face area. And if you have any 692 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: sort of damage to the fusiform gyrus, and again this 693 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: is the more rare kind, and is he acquired or 694 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: if you have a tumor pressing against it or something 695 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: like that, then that's probably going to be the cause. 696 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: It's damage your fusiform gyrus, right, And they found that 697 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: for congenital patients, it seems that their fusiform gyrus is 698 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: thicker than someone who doesn't have prosopagnosia. And the theory 699 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: that I read there was a guy named doctor Joe 700 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: de Guidas who was a Harvard neuroscientist, and he was 701 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: on the American Psychology Associations or Psychological Associations Speaking of 702 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: Psychology podcast, and he was basically saying that the theory 703 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: is that as you get as you're exposed to more 704 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: and more faces, your fusiform gyrus just gets rid of 705 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: like neural connections it doesn't need. It gets so like 706 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 1: lean and mean and efficient that a thinner fusiform gyrus 707 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: is going to be better at recognizing faces than a 708 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: thicker one. Was that doctor's name really what I think? 709 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: Joe Degudis Deguttas. Okay, he said the guide us at first, 710 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: and I was like, that would be really interesting if 711 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: a doctor had a last name with ITAs at the 712 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: end of it, right, Okay, de Guttis or goodis it's 713 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: d e g u t I s let's just call 714 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: him Joe from now on, doctor Joe. Doctor Joe sounds 715 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: like a chiropractor. The interesting thing about these UM experiments 716 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: they've done with the fuse from Gyrus, and that's what 717 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: we talked about in the Doppelganger EPP was we now 718 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: have an answer of whether or not we evolved like 719 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: a very specific function to recognize a face because we 720 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: have UM that. You know, the theories were out there 721 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: about like did we recognize like a prey hunting a 722 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: predator to like recognize different predators, And now we have 723 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: an answer to that, and that is yes, yeah, so 724 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: they think that UM. There was like a really large 725 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: debate going on, Chuck, where it's like, Okay, do we 726 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: actually have like a section of the brain that just 727 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: does faces. That seems unlikely. Instead, the opposite explanation was 728 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: that we have an object recognition system, the same thing 729 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: as recognizing a rock or a car or a toaster, 730 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: and that faces were just another object, but because they 731 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: were so vital to our social life and survival, that 732 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: we were experts at recognizing faces, but really to our 733 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: brain they were just another object. And the fusiform that 734 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: the confirmation that the fusiform gyrus just does faces kind 735 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: of throws that out the window because in the in 736 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: the experiment that we talked about in the Doppelganger episode, 737 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: this guy had his his um, the fusiform gyrus electro stimulated, 738 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 1: and the researcher's face just morphed. But his tie didn't change. 739 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: None of the objects in the room, the chairs didn't change, 740 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: so objects remain the same, just his face changed. So yeah, 741 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: it basically said, yes, we have a fusiform gyrus. It 742 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: functions for recognizing faces and that is all it does. 743 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: That's how important facial recognition is. Well, and imagine in 744 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, the earliest days of different tuk tuks mulling 745 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: around the savannah is friend or enemy? You know, it 746 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: became very important, very quickly to recognize people that have 747 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: done you wrong or done you right right, exactly for sure. 748 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: And I think also that probably also supports the other 749 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: race effect too, where it's like you don't need to 750 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: differentiate between somebody like an outside or an outgroup. You 751 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: just need to know like they're part of the outgroup. 752 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: It's the people in your in group that you need 753 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,959 Speaker 1: to have more specified social connections with. And yeah, we're 754 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: just we've socially evolved enough that now we have a 755 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 1: problem with this relic, this remnant from our evolutionary past 756 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: that we still haven't physically evolved out of. We just 757 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: socially evolved past it. And it's just problematic now. I 758 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 1: wonder if there's anything too. And a short stuff on 759 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: on having a face that's naturally uh the kindest way 760 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: to say this average, No, naturally adverse looking. What do 761 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: you mean like scowli like, you know, like resting scowl face. 762 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: Let's go BRF. I don't know what that is. I'll 763 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: tell you later, Okay, No, but you know what I 764 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: mean is is some people have like a their resting 765 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: look is just not inviting. Let's just say, and I 766 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 1: don't mean any not attractive or not at all. I 767 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: mean like literally like that person isn't doesn't look like 768 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: someone that would welcome me to come up and say hello. Right, 769 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 1: they look angry, and they're like, this is how I 770 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: always look. I'm sorry. I think we should look into 771 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: that for a short stuff, because I'm sure that's research 772 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: into it. Yeah. Yeah, because most of the time when 773 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,360 Speaker 1: you do talk to them or whatever, they like light up. 774 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,919 Speaker 1: Their facial expression totally changes. So you hope that it's 775 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: not just a charade, that they're just their faces their 776 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: normal resting faces just happens to look like that they're 777 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 1: not mad all the time. Who knows, let's get to 778 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: the bottom of it. As far as animals go. If 779 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 1: you're wondering kind of to put a cherry on top 780 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: of this thing, there has been research that have shown 781 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,760 Speaker 1: that recognizing faces in maccaques has been detected maccaque monkeys, 782 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: so it's been around longer than we have, and that 783 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: they've found that other non primates like are good at 784 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 1: this sheep. Apparently you're really good. I don't know if 785 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: that transfers to goats are across the street. Neighborhoodn't have 786 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: goats any longer, which is very sad, but I feel 787 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: like those goats or maybe they just recognized us as 788 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: the people coming across from that house, but we would 789 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: always bring them food scraps and when we walk out 790 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: the door, they would come run into the fence and 791 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,439 Speaker 1: braying and braying. So we never did an experiment where 792 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: we came from around the corner or something. I'm curious 793 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: if it was the same with goats with us creepy eyes. Yeah, 794 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: I wonder too, Or was it like your scent that 795 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: they were picking up on? What was it you know? 796 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,959 Speaker 1: Or was it faces? It was probably just us coming 797 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: out of the house with a bucket of food. Everything right, 798 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: every other day it would be my guess. So prazo pagnoja. Huh, 799 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 1: good one, I think so too. If you have prosopagnoja, 800 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 1: please write in and let us know what it's like. 801 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: And if you didn't realize you had prosopagnoja until you 802 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: listen to this episode, please also write in and let 803 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: us know that. And in the meantime, I think it's 804 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: time for a listener mail. That's right. I'm going to 805 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,240 Speaker 1: call this a gentle correction or not a correction actually, 806 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,479 Speaker 1: just a question answered, which we always love. Hey guys 807 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: live in the high desert of California. I listen to 808 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: the show whenever I'm in the car on my hour 809 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: long drive to the LA area. Today's show you mentioned, 810 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: and this is the one on fake towns. You mentioned 811 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: how the Boeing plant and Seattle had camouflaged their factory 812 00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: with a fake town on the roof, and you were 813 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: wrapping it up, and I think one of you said 814 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: something about wondering if the West Coast was ever bombed, 815 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,840 Speaker 1: and I think Chuck said no, I don't think so. 816 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: I was wrong. California was indeed shelled from offshore by 817 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: a Japanese submarine on February twenty third, nineteen forty two, 818 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: just north of Galida, a town called Elwood. The submarine 819 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: took aim at a rich Field oil storage facility and 820 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: landed between twelve and twenty five rounds, destroying a pumphouse, 821 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: defended Derek and giving credit or credits due. I first 822 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: heard about this incident while watching an episode of Huel 823 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: Houser's California Gold, a show on public television. Casey et 824 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: out of LA. The pace of the link, if you're interested, 825 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: could be a good subject of its own. The day 826 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: California got bombed, and that is from Craig Tim in 827 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,800 Speaker 1: Rosamond to California. Very nice. Thanks a lot of Craig. 828 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: That was indeed a gentle question, answered her question, gently 829 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: answered short. I kind of got her on too. If 830 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: you want to be like Craig and gently answer one 831 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: of our questions, or make a correction or just say hi, 832 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: it does not matter. We're always open to an email 833 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: from you. You can wrap it up, spank it on 834 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,879 Speaker 1: the bottom, and send it off to Stuff Podcasts at 835 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 836 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the 837 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 838 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: favorite shows.