1
00:00:00,650 --> 00:00:04,590
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly Jongfast, and this is Fast Politics, where

2
00:00:04,610 --> 00:00:07,490
Speaker 1: we discuss the top political headlines with some of today's

3
00:00:07,690 --> 00:00:11,729
Speaker 1: best minds and the 10-year Treasury is having its worst

4
00:00:11,810 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: run in over 100 years. We have such a great

5
00:00:15,100 --> 00:00:18,560
Speaker 1: show for you today. To the contrary, Charlie Sykes talks

6
00:00:18,660 --> 00:00:22,739
Speaker 1: about Trump helping Democrats with their blue wave. Then we'll

7
00:00:22,780 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: talk to Pushkin's own Jacob Weisberg about his new book,

8
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,500
Speaker 1: Profiles in Cowardice. But first, the news.

9
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,980
Speaker 2: Somali, one of the things from our youth you would

10
00:00:31,020 --> 00:00:33,519
Speaker 2: always hear about is like we can't change the laws

11
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,659
Speaker 2: to allow a foreign born person to be president because

12
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,240
Speaker 2: there was this movie, The Manchurian Canada, that we were

13
00:00:40,370 --> 00:00:42,330
Speaker 2: all assured would be the end of it. But one

14
00:00:42,390 --> 00:00:45,250
Speaker 2: thing that really seemed obvious is we probably shouldn't have

15
00:00:45,370 --> 00:00:48,730
Speaker 2: foreign countries controlling our news and media. But Brendan Carr

16
00:00:48,790 --> 00:00:52,150
Speaker 2: of the FCC says, nah, fuck it. I love that guy, MBS.

17
00:00:52,350 --> 00:00:54,830
Speaker 1: OK, so I think it's important to point out that

18
00:00:54,850 --> 00:00:59,450
Speaker 1: this is not actually about any country owning our media.

19
00:00:59,470 --> 00:01:04,660
Speaker 1: This is about the sovereign wealth funds of Saudi Arabia,

20
00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:11,140
Speaker 1: Qatar and Abu Dhabi owning what will be paramount. And Paramount,

21
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: which will include, if this merger goes through, CNN, right,

22
00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:20,720
Speaker 1: and CBS. So it's not like they're owning some rando, like,

23
00:01:20,740 --> 00:01:25,540
Speaker 1: you know, like some little movie studio that makes art films.

24
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,220
Speaker 1: They are going to own two of our biggest news outlets. Now,

25
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,330
Speaker 1: I want to add that Paramount is owned by Larry

26
00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:38,649
Speaker 1: Ellison and Larry Ellison has installed his son to run it,

27
00:01:38,750 --> 00:01:43,390
Speaker 1: David Ellison. And David Ellison and Larry Ellison are both

28
00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:47,100
Speaker 1: very tight with Trump world. So this is the Trump

29
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,510
Speaker 1: administration changing the laws so that a Trump donor can

30
00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:55,970
Speaker 1: get what he wants. I mean, that's it. Simple, simple stuff.

31
00:01:56,050 --> 00:02:01,400
Speaker 1: They are changing the law so that Donald Trump's big donor,

32
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,220
Speaker 1: Larry Ellison, can create an enormous conglomerate that probably flies

33
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,630
Speaker 1: in the face of antitrust laws. So It's just like

34
00:02:10,770 --> 00:02:13,770
Speaker 1: this is one of the things that is the kind

35
00:02:13,790 --> 00:02:16,410
Speaker 1: of thing that America pre-2016 would be the biggest scandal going.

36
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:25,590
Speaker 1: Even pre-2024, this would be a pretty big scandal. Now

37
00:02:25,710 --> 00:02:29,650
Speaker 1: it is just a Tuesday, except Friday, in Trump world.

38
00:02:29,790 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: We should still be shocked by shocking things. We should

39
00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:36,700
Speaker 1: still be appalled by appalling things. We should still be

40
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,109
Speaker 1: upset about things like this, even if they're happening because

41
00:02:41,150 --> 00:02:43,089
Speaker 1: this administration is such a kleptocracy.

42
00:02:43,230 --> 00:02:47,890
Speaker 2: Yeah, so obviously we are seeing a big blue wave

43
00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:50,090
Speaker 2: for Dems that looks like it's coming. We should not

44
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,620
Speaker 2: get too excited, obviously, because there's going to be a

45
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,980
Speaker 2: lot of fuckery. But one of the things that looks

46
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 2: like it's going to help it is Ro Khanna and

47
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 2: Thomas Massey are going to try to force another Epstein vote.

48
00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:02,370
Speaker 2: And Todd Blanche is being warned by a judge that

49
00:03:02,530 --> 00:03:04,630
Speaker 2: he might be in contempt if he doesn't release some

50
00:03:04,690 --> 00:03:05,530
Speaker 2: Epstein files soon.

51
00:03:05,770 --> 00:03:09,970
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, you'll remember that Speaker Mike Johnson, who has

52
00:03:10,050 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: basically one move, has sent everyone home because Thomas Massey

53
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,640
Speaker 1: had an impeachment petition for Whiskey Pete. Charlie Sykes is

54
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,980
Speaker 1: the author of the newsletter To the Contrary and the

55
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 1: book How the Right Lost Its Mind. So Congress will

56
00:03:25,220 --> 00:03:28,060
Speaker 1: have to come back for this to happen. But this

57
00:03:28,410 --> 00:03:33,109
Speaker 1: is a discharge petition for of 218 signatures to force

58
00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:35,830
Speaker 1: the release of the files related to Jeff F. And

59
00:03:35,870 --> 00:03:39,250
Speaker 1: you'll remember that they are about 3 million files short,

60
00:03:39,410 --> 00:03:41,580
Speaker 1: which is quite a lot of files. And they have

61
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,200
Speaker 1: broken the law in every which way by not releasing them,

62
00:03:45,260 --> 00:03:48,220
Speaker 1: not explaining the redactions, not, you know, the way the

63
00:03:48,260 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 1: law was written, it was written in such a way

64
00:03:50,780 --> 00:03:54,570
Speaker 1: to get them to have less loopholes. And this administration

65
00:03:54,790 --> 00:03:59,270
Speaker 1: has basically ignored that. So Todd Blanch is basically the

66
00:03:59,310 --> 00:04:03,270
Speaker 1: president's lawyer. Like he cosplays as our attorney general, but

67
00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:06,710
Speaker 1: his true calling in life is being the president's lawyer.

68
00:04:07,150 --> 00:04:10,340
Speaker 1: And he could face contempt proceedings. I think there's a

69
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,880
Speaker 1: lot of pressure for this administration not to be held

70
00:04:13,940 --> 00:04:16,240
Speaker 1: in contempt of court. And that means that I think

71
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: the U.S. District Judge Sullivan probably will avoid doing that.

72
00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:22,839
Speaker 1: In fact, he writes that it's premature for now. But

73
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: the idea here is there is pressure on Blanch. to

74
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,140
Speaker 1: release more information. And I think that he probably will

75
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,370
Speaker 1: release more information because it doesn't strike me as serving

76
00:04:35,490 --> 00:04:38,490
Speaker 1: him to go down this rabbit hole with them. But

77
00:04:38,630 --> 00:04:42,490
Speaker 1: either way, Epstein, politically, the calculus on Epstein is that

78
00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:45,550
Speaker 1: Epstein did, in fact, splinter the MAGA base. Like, that

79
00:04:45,589 --> 00:04:48,630
Speaker 1: was the first thing that started chipping away at the base.

80
00:04:48,850 --> 00:04:52,630
Speaker 1: And so, like, you know that Epstein is an issue

81
00:04:52,690 --> 00:04:57,190
Speaker 1: because people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson, And

82
00:04:57,390 --> 00:05:01,450
Speaker 1: Thomas Massey are still talking about Epstein. So I do

83
00:05:01,529 --> 00:05:04,650
Speaker 1: think this is a major issue for Trump and it

84
00:05:05,050 --> 00:05:07,150
Speaker 1: is an issue in the base. I think it's politically

85
00:05:07,190 --> 00:05:11,110
Speaker 1: smart both for Thomas Massey, who wants to have a

86
00:05:11,190 --> 00:05:14,340
Speaker 1: future after Trump. Remember, who's lost his seat. But I

87
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:15,800
Speaker 1: do think it's also smart for Democrats.

88
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 3: Yep.

89
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 2: So there's this DHS email that's got people pretty freaked

90
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 2: out about what the feds will do on Election Day.

91
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:24,360
Speaker 3: What do you see in here?

92
00:05:24,740 --> 00:05:28,570
Speaker 1: This office needs to be shut down and saged and

93
00:05:28,750 --> 00:05:31,350
Speaker 1: everyone needs to be fired and everything needs to be

94
00:05:31,390 --> 00:05:32,589
Speaker 1: saged because like whatever.

95
00:05:32,610 --> 00:05:35,770
Speaker 2: I'm learning so much about you now. You believe in sage.

96
00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:37,710
Speaker 2: The other day you said someone needs to find God

97
00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 2: like that. Really having a spiritual turn for you.

98
00:05:40,190 --> 00:05:43,620
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Very spiritual. I mean, saved with Diet Coke

99
00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:46,300
Speaker 1: and methamphetamine. I mean, like, can we just talk about this?

100
00:05:46,420 --> 00:05:50,289
Speaker 1: So the Department of Homeland Security now run by probably

101
00:05:50,790 --> 00:05:57,130
Speaker 1: one of the dumbest senators in American history, Mark Wayne Mullen. Yeah.

102
00:05:57,740 --> 00:06:00,940
Speaker 1: So they have plans for the midterms. The good news

103
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,360
Speaker 1: here is the NPR obtained the email. Right. The Democratic

104
00:06:05,420 --> 00:06:09,359
Speaker 1: National Committee lawsuit over public records request. It's a 78

105
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,800
Speaker 1: page list of states and counties with a criminal checklist

106
00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:16,940
Speaker 1: on requirements for prosecuting election crimes. The content of the

107
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: email is worrying, but I want to add. here, that

108
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,780
Speaker 1: there are like local police who know that they may

109
00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,330
Speaker 1: have to stop something crazy. There are lawyers who are

110
00:06:27,390 --> 00:06:30,210
Speaker 1: ready to go to court. Like there is so much

111
00:06:30,330 --> 00:06:33,770
Speaker 1: planning and wargaming for this election. I mean, you and

112
00:06:33,910 --> 00:06:37,650
Speaker 1: I have talked privately. We've talked publicly. Donald Trump wants

113
00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:40,610
Speaker 1: his people to cheat. But we have also heard Donald

114
00:06:40,630 --> 00:06:43,849
Speaker 1: Trump telling people to cheat. And so as much as

115
00:06:43,910 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 1: like this stuff is really scary, there are a lot

116
00:06:48,310 --> 00:06:50,340
Speaker 1: of people who are trying to get this out. And

117
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,220
Speaker 1: in fact, the city of Denver, along with multiple Latino

118
00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:58,180
Speaker 1: civil rights groups, sued the Trump administration and DHS Secretary

119
00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,840
Speaker 1: Mark Wayne to prevent ICE agents from serving immigration warrants

120
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,940
Speaker 1: at the polls. Why they would do that, that would

121
00:07:03,980 --> 00:07:08,540
Speaker 1: be insane because only citizens vote. anyway. And it's just

122
00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:12,590
Speaker 1: to scare people. So stationing ICE agents outside polling places

123
00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:15,210
Speaker 1: is meant to scare people. And that's because they know

124
00:07:15,230 --> 00:07:18,550
Speaker 1: that they are underwater with Latino voters. And so they

125
00:07:18,590 --> 00:07:21,550
Speaker 1: don't want them to vote. And that's why you have

126
00:07:21,610 --> 00:07:26,930
Speaker 1: situations like in Florida's 27th District, where you have Maria Salazar,

127
00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:31,030
Speaker 1: one by 20 points now, doing ads saying she's against ICE.

128
00:07:31,170 --> 00:07:34,860
Speaker 1: This is Republicans being able to read the polls. Yes.

129
00:07:35,260 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 2: So this is interesting and good news. The Postal Service

130
00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 2: chief says work stopped on a computer system key to

131
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 2: Trump's efforts to limit mail-in voting.

132
00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:46,940
Speaker 1: This is insane. OK, so Donald Trump wanted to limit

133
00:07:47,140 --> 00:07:49,860
Speaker 1: mail-in voting. A third of the country votes by mail.

134
00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:52,920
Speaker 1: Donald Trump voted by mail. He voted by mail even

135
00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,100
Speaker 1: very recently in the primaries. He had a post office

136
00:07:57,140 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 1: had a sort of weird software that was going to

137
00:07:59,700 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 1: fuck up voting by mail-in. the midterms, thus federalizing elections,

138
00:08:03,850 --> 00:08:07,390
Speaker 1: which they're not supposed to be doing, which is completely

139
00:08:07,610 --> 00:08:11,430
Speaker 1: fucked up in every which way. Now the Postal Service

140
00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:15,170
Speaker 1: chief says he has work has stopped on a computer

141
00:08:15,210 --> 00:08:19,050
Speaker 1: system to Trump effort to limit mail-in voting. Here's the

142
00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:21,540
Speaker 1: problem with all of this stuff. This is the problem

143
00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:24,140
Speaker 1: with everything in Trump world is like, how do you

144
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:24,860
Speaker 1: trust people?

145
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 2: You can't ever trust these people. They don't show any

146
00:08:27,940 --> 00:08:29,280
Speaker 2: sign of being trustworthy.

147
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,940
Speaker 1: So they're saying they're not doing it. We have no

148
00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:35,080
Speaker 1: evidence to, I mean, like, hopefully there are whistleblowers in

149
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,939
Speaker 1: the post office who will make sure that this doesn't happen,

150
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, because this is Trump's thing about trying to

151
00:08:42,179 --> 00:08:49,530
Speaker 1: throw out mail-in voting. Charlie Sykes is the author of

152
00:08:49,570 --> 00:08:52,090
Speaker 1: the newsletter To the Contrary and the book How the

153
00:08:52,150 --> 00:08:54,770
Speaker 1: Right Lost Its Mind. Welcome, Charlie Sykes.

154
00:08:55,270 --> 00:08:56,250
Speaker 4: Hey, it is good to be back.

155
00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:59,690
Speaker 1: You are in the great state of Wisconsin, a state

156
00:09:01,030 --> 00:09:05,069
Speaker 1: where the really usually elections are decided by a point

157
00:09:05,230 --> 00:09:08,710
Speaker 1: or two. Do you think that's going to happen this year?

158
00:09:08,990 --> 00:09:11,170
Speaker 4: Well, let's assume that it will. Yes. I mean, that

159
00:09:11,210 --> 00:09:14,030
Speaker 4: has to be the default setting. But You know, right

160
00:09:14,090 --> 00:09:17,510
Speaker 4: now the winds are blowing so hard against the Republicans.

161
00:09:17,650 --> 00:09:19,970
Speaker 4: I mean, it is a, you know, not to chuff

162
00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:23,790
Speaker 4: the hopium, but you get the sense that this is

163
00:09:23,860 --> 00:09:28,740
Speaker 4: going to be a wave. And obviously, you know, we're

164
00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,880
Speaker 4: a barometer of all of that. I also think that

165
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 4: in an off-year election, Democrats have a built-in advantage because

166
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,620
Speaker 4: their voters have been, you know, so much more engaged.

167
00:09:41,670 --> 00:09:43,610
Speaker 4: What's interesting about this year, I mean, you know a

168
00:09:43,630 --> 00:09:47,230
Speaker 4: little bit of the background. You had a very, very narrow,

169
00:09:47,270 --> 00:09:51,710
Speaker 4: very surprised primary victory by David Crowley over the DSA

170
00:09:51,770 --> 00:09:55,230
Speaker 4: candidate Francesca Hong. And by the way, just parenthetically, if

171
00:09:55,270 --> 00:09:59,969
Speaker 4: Francesca Hong had won that primary, Republicans would almost certainly protest.

172
00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 4: be winning the governorship in Wisconsin. Crowley had dropped out

173
00:10:03,860 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 4: of the race in July, got back into the race.

174
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 4: He is not well known statewide. He would be the

175
00:10:10,059 --> 00:10:16,220
Speaker 4: first African-American ever elected governor in Wisconsin. Republicans are pouring

176
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,060
Speaker 4: in tens of millions of dollars trying to portray him

177
00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 4: as left wing, you know, urban, soft on crime. But

178
00:10:29,140 --> 00:10:31,189
Speaker 4: he's doing very well in the polls and he's leading

179
00:10:31,230 --> 00:10:34,210
Speaker 4: in the polls by four to five points among likely voters,

180
00:10:34,330 --> 00:10:36,070
Speaker 4: although tied among registered voters.

181
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,870
Speaker 1: It does strike me, though, Wisconsin is a place that

182
00:10:41,070 --> 00:10:45,610
Speaker 1: it has a lot of the things that this election

183
00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:50,069
Speaker 1: are about. So you're near Canada, do a lot of

184
00:10:50,110 --> 00:10:53,480
Speaker 1: trading with Canada. So you're affected by tariffs.

185
00:10:53,580 --> 00:10:56,959
Speaker 4: Tell us about that. Here's the basic dynamic in Wisconsin.

186
00:10:57,179 --> 00:11:00,900
Speaker 4: You have big Democratic areas in Milwaukee and in Madison.

187
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,960
Speaker 4: Republicans have done traditionally very well in the Milwaukee suburbs.

188
00:11:05,620 --> 00:11:09,780
Speaker 4: and lately have been running a big numbers in rural areas.

189
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,569
Speaker 4: And it's in the rural areas that I think Republicans

190
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,390
Speaker 4: are facing the huge challenge. You know, you and I

191
00:11:16,450 --> 00:11:19,410
Speaker 4: may read about the price of gas or read about

192
00:11:19,429 --> 00:11:23,450
Speaker 4: what's happening to diesel price. Those are existential issues for

193
00:11:23,570 --> 00:11:28,470
Speaker 4: farmers in northern Wisconsin, as they are in rural areas

194
00:11:28,530 --> 00:11:31,910
Speaker 4: all over the state. So, If the Democrats can turn

195
00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:35,290
Speaker 4: out big numbers in Milwaukee and Madison, which I think

196
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 4: is likely to happen, things like the tariffs, things like

197
00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:44,400
Speaker 4: the high price of gas can really undermine their support

198
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 4: in their key areas, which would be rural Wisconsin. And

199
00:11:47,860 --> 00:11:50,980
Speaker 4: then we get to Milwaukee suburbs. The suburbs have been

200
00:11:51,059 --> 00:11:54,620
Speaker 4: trending away from the Republicans since Donald Trump came on

201
00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:58,429
Speaker 4: the scene. So all of those dynamics are in play

202
00:11:58,490 --> 00:12:01,390
Speaker 4: right now. Not to mention the fact that the Republican nominee,

203
00:12:01,429 --> 00:12:05,890
Speaker 4: Tom Tiffany, is a MAGA toady who was also election

204
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 4: denier who had voted on January 6th against certifying the election.

205
00:12:10,420 --> 00:12:11,459
Speaker 4: So there's that.

206
00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:16,140
Speaker 1: We need to talk about the Maria Salazar of Florida's

207
00:12:16,179 --> 00:12:20,370
Speaker 1: 27th district. So she won her district by 20 points.

208
00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:23,690
Speaker 1: Trump won it by 15 or 14 and a half.

209
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:28,510
Speaker 1: It is 73 percent Latino voters. She just had an

210
00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:31,989
Speaker 1: ad out that basically said abolish ICE.

211
00:12:33,010 --> 00:12:36,410
Speaker 4: Well, she calls out Donald Trump saying that Hispanic voters

212
00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 4: feel betrayed. You know, when she ran last time, she

213
00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,959
Speaker 4: told him you can trust Donald Trump. This is an

214
00:12:42,020 --> 00:12:45,180
Speaker 4: indication of what's happening with Hispanic vote, not just in Florida,

215
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,840
Speaker 4: but all around the country. And so I think this

216
00:12:47,860 --> 00:12:49,660
Speaker 4: is this is not just a Florida story. It's a

217
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 4: Texas story. It's, you know, wherever you have significant concentrations.

218
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:58,290
Speaker 4: And it is amazing. You look at some of the numbers,

219
00:12:58,610 --> 00:13:01,430
Speaker 4: the shift, the way, and you and I have talked

220
00:13:01,470 --> 00:13:04,240
Speaker 4: about this before, Donald Trump put together, let's be honest

221
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,500
Speaker 4: about it, kind of an impressive coalition to get elected

222
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:14,450
Speaker 4: in 2024. He has aggressively squandered that coalition. And there's

223
00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:20,459
Speaker 4: no more dramatic example than the Hispanic Latino vote. And so, Yeah,

224
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 4: I mean, that ad has got to be raising lots

225
00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:23,679
Speaker 4: of eyebrows.

226
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:28,690
Speaker 1: Because that ad is basically a Republican abandoning Trump. So

227
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:31,790
Speaker 1: is this the beginning of that phenomenon?

228
00:13:32,270 --> 00:13:35,620
Speaker 4: Well, look, how many times we had this conversation. What

229
00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:41,980
Speaker 4: I do think is interesting, and again, everything is tentative. Republicans,

230
00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:44,100
Speaker 4: if they're not abandoning him, they're tuning him out. Have

231
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,840
Speaker 4: you noticed a couple of things? Number one, when he

232
00:13:46,860 --> 00:13:51,500
Speaker 4: proposed the $ 5, 000 giveaway to everybody, Republicans kind of just

233
00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 4: rolled their eyes and it just kind of disappeared, right?

234
00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:56,880
Speaker 4: It used to be that when he said something, the

235
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,410
Speaker 4: herd would move. Not anymore. He's declaring all of the

236
00:14:00,470 --> 00:14:03,450
Speaker 4: warnings about AI to be a big hoax. That's the

237
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:08,750
Speaker 4: bat signal to his base, and yet you're not seeing

238
00:14:08,809 --> 00:14:12,699
Speaker 4: the numbers. You're seeing one Republican governor after another say,

239
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,540
Speaker 4: maybe we ought to hold up on the data center issue.

240
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,940
Speaker 4: So I don't know. I wrote earlier this week that

241
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,230
Speaker 4: you're getting real lame duck vibes with one institution after

242
00:14:24,260 --> 00:14:28,510
Speaker 4: another being more willing to defy him, to ignore him.

243
00:14:28,530 --> 00:14:32,390
Speaker 4: The fact that the Republican House actually had to run

244
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:36,730
Speaker 4: away and hide this week in order to avoid taking

245
00:14:36,770 --> 00:14:40,250
Speaker 4: a vote on impeaching Pete Hegseth. I mean, what was

246
00:14:40,350 --> 00:14:44,150
Speaker 4: with that? So we'll have to see. For most Republicans,

247
00:14:44,770 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 4: where are they going to go if they abandon Trump?

248
00:14:47,410 --> 00:14:51,810
Speaker 4: And also the caveat, look, you know, before we get

249
00:14:52,170 --> 00:14:54,710
Speaker 4: too exuberant about him being a lame duck, you and

250
00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:57,030
Speaker 4: I both know the weaker he gets, the more dangerous

251
00:14:57,070 --> 00:14:57,430
Speaker 4: he gets.

252
00:14:58,170 --> 00:15:01,070
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. But I do think this

253
00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:07,540
Speaker 1: Hegseth impeachment sort of opens the door to what we

254
00:15:07,620 --> 00:15:11,540
Speaker 1: could see when Democrats, if, when and if Democrats flip

255
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,320
Speaker 1: the House and the Senate, you could see a world

256
00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:19,610
Speaker 1: where where like a Hegseth impeachment, like they're in this

257
00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:24,010
Speaker 1: forever war, they're running out of munitions. We are seeing,

258
00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:27,350
Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of posturing every which way that

259
00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:29,930
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people. I happen to know

260
00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:32,730
Speaker 1: this from having a kid who's involved in this, that

261
00:15:32,770 --> 00:15:35,350
Speaker 1: the army is really mad at him, that they're feeling

262
00:15:35,390 --> 00:15:39,380
Speaker 1: very betrayed by him. So the question is, like, could

263
00:15:39,410 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 1: you see an impeachment for a Pete Hegseth?

264
00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:42,780
Speaker 4: I feel like you could.

265
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:43,180
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

266
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 4: Absolutely. No, absolutely. And in fact, I can not only

267
00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:50,310
Speaker 4: see it, I think that that is inevitable. And I

268
00:15:50,370 --> 00:15:52,910
Speaker 4: think that they probably should look at some of the

269
00:15:52,970 --> 00:15:55,770
Speaker 4: other members of the cabinet as well. I mean, it's

270
00:15:55,810 --> 00:15:59,710
Speaker 4: not just that Hegseth is mismanaging this war. He's clearly

271
00:15:59,730 --> 00:16:02,330
Speaker 4: been covering up the extent of the damage. We're getting

272
00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:06,490
Speaker 4: indications that they've lied or tried to cover that up.

273
00:16:06,910 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 4: His purge of the generals, I think, is just shedding

274
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 4: support in Congress. You know, some of the generals that

275
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:18,640
Speaker 4: have been fired by Pete Hegseth had constituencies in Congress,

276
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 4: members of Congress and the Senate knew these guys, like

277
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,580
Speaker 4: these guys, trusted these guys. You know, Hegseth has been

278
00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:29,820
Speaker 4: purging them without any explanation whatsoever. So, yeah. And I

279
00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:35,760
Speaker 4: think I don't think that's I actually think that that's smart. Yeah.

280
00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:38,310
Speaker 4: You know, maybe it's premature to get into the debate

281
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:40,729
Speaker 4: about whether they should impeach Donald Trump, because I think,

282
00:16:41,070 --> 00:16:43,020
Speaker 4: I mean, he deserves it. The pressure is going to

283
00:16:43,060 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 4: be significant. But I think it's time to basically at

284
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 4: least throw out one of the prime directors that, you know,

285
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,990
Speaker 4: in terms of the question, what should Democrats do over

286
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,170
Speaker 4: the next two years? Yeah. You know, the answer should

287
00:16:57,210 --> 00:17:01,310
Speaker 4: be every single time. What will make it more likely

288
00:17:01,590 --> 00:17:06,340
Speaker 4: you will win in 2028? Yeah, for sure. Everything. This

289
00:17:06,410 --> 00:17:08,820
Speaker 4: is not the moment. You're not going to pass major

290
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:11,260
Speaker 4: legislation that's going to get signed by Donald Trump. You're

291
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,060
Speaker 4: not going to be able to fix everything. Everything should

292
00:17:14,100 --> 00:17:17,869
Speaker 4: be focused on the main event. The midterm elections is

293
00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:23,130
Speaker 4: like halftime. It's like the preseason, whatever. The 2028 election

294
00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:26,530
Speaker 4: is the Super Bowl. So, you know, the litmus test

295
00:17:26,570 --> 00:17:30,850
Speaker 4: to every decision is, does this help or hurt Democrats

296
00:17:30,930 --> 00:17:34,210
Speaker 4: win in 2028? There may be there'll be pressure to

297
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:38,510
Speaker 4: scratch your ideological id, but does it get you to

298
00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:44,449
Speaker 4: 270 votes in the electoral college in 2028. That may

299
00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:47,850
Speaker 4: seem like a narrow question, but right now, if we've

300
00:17:47,890 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 4: learned anything, it's that you have to confront an existential

301
00:17:52,859 --> 00:17:55,619
Speaker 4: crisis as if it is an existential crisis.

302
00:17:56,090 --> 00:18:01,390
Speaker 1: I want to add, when we talk about impeaching cabinet secretaries, yesterday,

303
00:18:01,890 --> 00:18:05,450
Speaker 1: RFK Jr. spoke at the Children's Health Alliance, which is

304
00:18:05,470 --> 00:18:11,160
Speaker 1: an anti-vax, basically, business that he runs, or he founded

305
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,220
Speaker 1: and no longer runs, maybe, because I wouldn't take any

306
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,640
Speaker 1: of these people at their words. And he said to

307
00:18:16,660 --> 00:18:19,180
Speaker 1: the anti-vax community, you have a friend in the White House.

308
00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:22,389
Speaker 4: He also says something about chemtrails, too, didn't he? Chemtrails.

309
00:18:22,430 --> 00:18:26,379
Speaker 1: They're investigating chemtrails. I mean, OK, but yeah, I mean,

310
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: doesn't that seem like a case for impeachment there when

311
00:18:28,619 --> 00:18:30,919
Speaker 1: you have people dying? You have four people died of

312
00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:32,100
Speaker 1: measles in Pennsylvania.

313
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 4: OK, so actually, as soon as you said that, I said, now,

314
00:18:35,220 --> 00:18:36,900
Speaker 4: did I say that out loud or was that just

315
00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 4: in my head when I was saying other members of

316
00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:40,719
Speaker 4: the cabinet? Because I was thinking of Kennedy. Did you

317
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,500
Speaker 4: see that thing about the P. Doom percentage, by the way,

318
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:46,619
Speaker 4: the you know, the you know, the Have you ever

319
00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:48,980
Speaker 4: heard the phrase P-Doom percentage? Because I never did before.

320
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,830
Speaker 1: No, I had not heard of it, but I saw it.

321
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:57,550
Speaker 4: Okay. It's Silicon Valley geek speak for what are the

322
00:18:57,710 --> 00:19:01,250
Speaker 4: odds that AI will destroy all humanity? Kill us all. Yeah.

323
00:19:01,310 --> 00:19:04,670
Speaker 4: And I wrote in my newsletter yesterday. I wrote in

324
00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:06,939
Speaker 4: my newsletter. Maybe we should also be asking, what is

325
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 4: the P-Doom percentage that say RFK Jr. is going to sponsor...

326
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:16,230
Speaker 4: a measles epidemic or a worldwide pandemic, because I'll tell you,

327
00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:22,389
Speaker 4: the P-Doom percentage of RFK doing that is probably a

328
00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:25,619
Speaker 4: lot higher than whether AI will wipe out humanity. I

329
00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 4: also ask, by the way, people should think about what's

330
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,300
Speaker 4: the P-Doom percentage of Donald Trump, you know, hitting the

331
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,060
Speaker 4: nuclear button. But let's leave that aside for a moment.

332
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:36,979
Speaker 1: Never zero.

333
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 4: Never zero. I do think that this has got to

334
00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:45,070
Speaker 4: be the main thing that Congress does, oversight and accountability,

335
00:19:45,850 --> 00:19:50,810
Speaker 4: use the subpoena power, if not to successfully oust them,

336
00:19:50,970 --> 00:19:57,900
Speaker 4: because that's difficult, to unearth information that otherwise would not

337
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:04,899
Speaker 4: be unearthed, to really expose this administration. This is not

338
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 4: the moment to change the subject to something else that's unpopular.

339
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:13,389
Speaker 4: It is to really shine a spotlight on this guy.

340
00:20:14,050 --> 00:20:16,270
Speaker 1: And by the way. And the corruption.

341
00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 4: Sorry. Well, exactly. So imagine a Democratic Congress going in

342
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 4: and keeping that story of the Russian gangster who financed

343
00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 4: Don Jr. 's wedding in the headlines. Where is that

344
00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 4: story right now? This should be changing the weather that

345
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,629
Speaker 4: we had a story like that. And yet it's sort of,

346
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,110
Speaker 4: you know, our. Our short attention spans are so short

347
00:20:43,470 --> 00:20:45,770
Speaker 4: that we've already moved on. This is the kind of

348
00:20:45,850 --> 00:20:50,790
Speaker 4: thing that a Democratic Congress can do with subpoenas, with investigations,

349
00:20:51,210 --> 00:20:55,970
Speaker 4: getting those documents out, asking those questions. And I actually

350
00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:59,500
Speaker 4: think they will do that. Yeah, I hope so.

351
00:20:59,580 --> 00:21:01,580
Speaker 1: I mean, the good news, I think, is like when

352
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,179
Speaker 1: you look at someone like Robert Garcia, who's the ranking

353
00:21:04,220 --> 00:21:08,510
Speaker 1: member of Oversight, and even like this has been very interesting.

354
00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:11,369
Speaker 1: There's so much stuff that's happened on Oversight that has

355
00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:13,490
Speaker 1: not made it to the top of the news feed.

356
00:21:13,550 --> 00:21:17,850
Speaker 1: But like, for example, you know that James Comer and

357
00:21:17,950 --> 00:21:22,929
Speaker 1: Robert Garcia sued Elon Musk, not Elon Musk, Leon Black.

358
00:21:23,010 --> 00:21:28,190
Speaker 1: Leon Black is now in contempt of Congress for refusing

359
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:31,450
Speaker 1: to show up at the hearings, which Hillary and Bill

360
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:32,210
Speaker 1: Clinton did.

361
00:21:32,590 --> 00:21:36,490
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, I mean, there are those other areas to

362
00:21:36,530 --> 00:21:39,629
Speaker 4: go into. And I'm glad you mentioned that because the

363
00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:42,770
Speaker 4: Epstein file issue, I don't think has gone away. I

364
00:21:42,810 --> 00:21:45,690
Speaker 4: don't think the public is bored with it. I think

365
00:21:45,710 --> 00:21:49,500
Speaker 4: that there's a ton... There's a lot more that we

366
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:53,130
Speaker 4: need to learn. I also think, by the way, you

367
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:57,389
Speaker 4: mentioned the Wisconsin governor's race. The Epstein files has become

368
00:21:57,430 --> 00:22:01,530
Speaker 4: an issue in the governor's race. Really? David Crowley is

369
00:22:01,690 --> 00:22:04,990
Speaker 4: pounding Tom Tiffany for voting to cover up the Epstein.

370
00:22:05,010 --> 00:22:13,700
Speaker 4: Because he's a member of Congress. So for folks who

371
00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 4: think that somehow we have been distracted away from that, no,

372
00:22:16,940 --> 00:22:18,510
Speaker 4: those things are not going away.

373
00:22:19,310 --> 00:22:20,929
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm really glad you brought that up

374
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:24,449
Speaker 1: because I'm sort of obsessed with the hyperlocal stories in

375
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:27,110
Speaker 1: this election because there are a lot of really interesting

376
00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: hyperlocal things happening in different states. And this Tom Tiffany

377
00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: race with David Crowley is a great example of that

378
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,859
Speaker 1: because you have a candidate, too, who was he wasn't

379
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:40,340
Speaker 1: he the he is the lieutenant governor, correct?

380
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 4: No, no, that was Mandela. Yes. No, he's the Milwaukee

381
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,220
Speaker 4: County executive. So, I mean, obviously in Milwaukee, the city

382
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,580
Speaker 4: and the county have their challenges. You know, this is

383
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 4: my area. And the Republicans are really, you know, trying

384
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 4: to exploit that. But you just get the sense that

385
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,740
Speaker 4: the political environment, you know, it's amazing. I know I

386
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 4: really tried to Is this the exuberant, everything is going

387
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,970
Speaker 4: our way type thing? But you are seeing what's happening

388
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:23,189
Speaker 4: with the prices of everything. By the way, Tom Tiffany

389
00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:27,129
Speaker 4: actually had a post out earlier this year where he's

390
00:23:27,170 --> 00:23:30,939
Speaker 4: standing in front of a gas station pointing at gas

391
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 4: under $ 2. 50 saying, promises made, promises kept. Well, you know,

392
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,670
Speaker 4: things have not worked out for him in that respect anywhere. Yeah.

393
00:23:44,690 --> 00:23:47,730
Speaker 4: So I think I think, you know, Wisconsin will be

394
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:51,850
Speaker 4: a bellwether for what's going on in the Midwest. I mean, obviously,

395
00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:55,370
Speaker 4: there are some Democrats are far more united here. We're

396
00:23:55,410 --> 00:23:57,950
Speaker 4: not having any of the kinds of splits that you're

397
00:23:57,970 --> 00:24:01,570
Speaker 4: seeing in Michigan. You're not seeing any of the of

398
00:24:01,650 --> 00:24:02,629
Speaker 4: those kinds of issues.

399
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:06,619
Speaker 1: But But even in Michigan, Haley Stevens has been a

400
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,770
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal partner to Dr. El-Sayed. Like, she has gone

401
00:24:11,980 --> 00:24:15,070
Speaker 1: out and campaigned and campaigned and campaigned with him in

402
00:24:15,109 --> 00:24:19,350
Speaker 1: a way that is all we could expect from a Democratic,

403
00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:20,810
Speaker 1: from someone.

404
00:24:20,490 --> 00:24:23,250
Speaker 4: Who lost a primary. And yet she's still being harassed

405
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:24,790
Speaker 4: by folks.

406
00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:25,570
Speaker 1: Yeah.

407
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 4: And I would say that, you know, for folks who

408
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 4: don't want to talk about Hassan Piker, it does almost

409
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,780
Speaker 4: feel as if he's, he is a GOP plant because

410
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,140
Speaker 4: he's not making it any easier for El-Sayed. I mean,

411
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,900
Speaker 4: this latest comment where he's basically saying that, you know,

412
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 4: the United States is worse than Al-Qaeda, that the Mideast

413
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 4: would be more stable if Iran had a nuclear weapon. Look,

414
00:24:51,859 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 4: I mean, this should be a cautionary tale. And again,

415
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,949
Speaker 4: for 2020, this is a cautionary tale. You bring in

416
00:24:58,050 --> 00:25:01,950
Speaker 4: toxic people into the tent, Don't be surprised when when

417
00:25:01,970 --> 00:25:03,949
Speaker 4: things go badly. And I understand that people don't want

418
00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:09,230
Speaker 4: to talk about this, but the Republicans are spending millions

419
00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:14,650
Speaker 4: of dollars specifically on this. And this weird flex that

420
00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:17,730
Speaker 4: something that may cost us control of the Senate, you know,

421
00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:20,450
Speaker 4: let's not talk about it. Let's pretend it's not a thing.

422
00:25:21,210 --> 00:25:22,350
Speaker 4: That's that's not a strategy.

423
00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:25,780
Speaker 1: But I want to push back a little bit because

424
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: I agree with the not having that person in the tent.

425
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:32,340
Speaker 1: But I don't necessarily agree with not going everywhere. Because,

426
00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:37,020
Speaker 1: for example, Elsaid went on Jesse Waters' show. Jesse Waters,

427
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: a complete disaster. But he did get half of, you know,

428
00:25:40,740 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: his first of all, the numbers on that episode were

429
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,740
Speaker 1: like three million. So an extra half a million people

430
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,660
Speaker 1: tuned in for that. And 3 million is— or 3 million

431
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:53,429
Speaker 1: Fox News viewers, which is different than the people who

432
00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:56,550
Speaker 1: listen to this podcast or— so I do think— and, you know,

433
00:25:56,590 --> 00:25:58,629
Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons why I go— I try to

434
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:01,859
Speaker 1: go on shows where I don't necessarily feel comfortable because

435
00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:06,860
Speaker 1: our media is so siloed. So I agree that— This

436
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,750
Speaker 1: is a complicated issue. And his relationship with with Hassan

437
00:26:12,030 --> 00:26:15,210
Speaker 1: is complicated. But I do also think and, you know,

438
00:26:15,230 --> 00:26:17,810
Speaker 1: I think he's he's tried to walk it back in

439
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:21,130
Speaker 1: the way he can. But I do think the idea

440
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:24,870
Speaker 1: that people should go everywhere, even if the person even

441
00:26:24,910 --> 00:26:28,490
Speaker 1: if it's Joe Rogan who spreads anti-vax conspiracies. Yeah.

442
00:26:28,869 --> 00:26:32,969
Speaker 4: Well, I half agree and half disagree. You know, number one,

443
00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:35,409
Speaker 4: I'm never going to go on Nick Fuente's show, and

444
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:36,790
Speaker 4: I don't think that anyone should.

445
00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:37,830
Speaker 3: For sure.

446
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:42,060
Speaker 4: You know, so, and I think that's pretty clear. Also,

447
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,500
Speaker 4: it's not about going on the show. Elsaid campaigned with

448
00:26:46,540 --> 00:26:49,780
Speaker 4: Hassan Piker. That was the big, that was the issue,

449
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 4: that he actually campaigned with him. So let's move on.

450
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,500
Speaker 1: But you do think, like, you would go on Joe Rogan.

451
00:26:57,970 --> 00:27:01,250
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would go on Joe Rogan, but that's not...

452
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:06,730
Speaker 4: The problem is that every healthy political party needs to

453
00:27:06,790 --> 00:27:09,930
Speaker 4: have guardrails. You need to have... If you have a

454
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:13,740
Speaker 4: big tent, that tent still has to have sides to it.

455
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 4: And there are points at which it goes too far.

456
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,380
Speaker 4: But here's the thing. Republicans are much, much more effective

457
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 4: at weaponizing that one guy, whereas... And you know, I've

458
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,210
Speaker 4: talked to you about this before. Why are Democrats... not

459
00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:32,050
Speaker 4: weaponizing the fact that Elon Musk is spending $ 100 million.

460
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:36,030
Speaker 4: Compare the power of Elon Musk to Hassan Peker. Elon

461
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:39,389
Speaker 4: Musk is a trillionaire. Elon Musk is putting in $ 100 million.

462
00:27:40,030 --> 00:27:44,870
Speaker 4: Every Republican in America is tied to Elon Musk. What

463
00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: about this guy Beau French down in Texas? A virulent

464
00:27:51,260 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 4: racist running for railroad commissioner so bad that even Karl

465
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: Rove says he's going to vote for the Democrat. And

466
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,859
Speaker 4: so every Republican needs to be asked in the same way,

467
00:28:03,460 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 4: would you support this person? You know, is the Republican

468
00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:10,860
Speaker 4: tent big enough for this person? And so I do

469
00:28:10,940 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 4: think that, you know, you and I have spent much

470
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,180
Speaker 4: of the last several years, you know, highlighting, you know,

471
00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:22,590
Speaker 4: one crazy extremist Republican after another. But I'm not sure

472
00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:25,830
Speaker 4: the Democrats have ever effectively weaponized that in the way

473
00:28:25,869 --> 00:28:31,619
Speaker 4: that Republicans weaponize The the far left figure, even if

474
00:28:31,660 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 4: they're only like a Twitch streamer.

475
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,100
Speaker 1: Right.

476
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,100
Speaker 4: They make him they make him the centerpiece of their

477
00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:41,460
Speaker 4: entire campaign. And yet how many freaks and bigots does

478
00:28:41,530 --> 00:28:44,729
Speaker 4: MAGA have out there on the ballot and in office?

479
00:28:45,550 --> 00:28:49,380
Speaker 1: Correct. Charlie Sykes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

480
00:28:49,390 --> 00:28:49,810
Speaker 4: Thank you.

481
00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:54,380
Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg is the former editor of Slate, the founder

482
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,110
Speaker 1: of Pushkin, and the author of Profiles in Cowardice. Welcome, welcome,

483
00:28:59,190 --> 00:29:00,150
Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg.

484
00:29:00,430 --> 00:29:02,010
Speaker 3: Thanks, Molly. It's great to be on your show.

485
00:29:02,150 --> 00:29:04,430
Speaker 1: It's great to have you. So the book is called

486
00:29:04,450 --> 00:29:08,050
Speaker 1: Profiles in Cowardice. Tell us how you got here.

487
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:11,550
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, there was already a Profiles in Courage, so

488
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:13,350
Speaker 3: I thought, you know, might be time for the other

489
00:29:13,390 --> 00:29:16,540
Speaker 3: side of the story. I got here because in Trump's

490
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,740
Speaker 3: second term, like a lot of people, I was feeling

491
00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 3: extremely frustrated. But I also had a big question, which

492
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: was why were things so different in Trump 2 as

493
00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:29,980
Speaker 3: compared to Trump 1? You know, in Trump 1... I think,

494
00:29:30,060 --> 00:29:34,690
Speaker 3: by and large, the guardrails held. There was really significant

495
00:29:34,910 --> 00:29:39,110
Speaker 3: resistance to Trump and significant constraint on him, including in

496
00:29:39,150 --> 00:29:42,740
Speaker 3: his own administration. from people he appointed, who stopped him

497
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: from doing a lot of the things that he went

498
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,020
Speaker 3: ahead and did in the second term, like, say, invading Venezuela.

499
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: He wanted to do that in term one. But his

500
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,810
Speaker 3: military advisors, the senior people, the Pentagon Joint Chiefs, his

501
00:29:56,850 --> 00:29:59,550
Speaker 3: chief of staff, You know, they kind of conspired to

502
00:29:59,770 --> 00:30:02,550
Speaker 3: constrain him. It wasn't always effective, and he still said

503
00:30:02,830 --> 00:30:05,630
Speaker 3: stupid and outrageous shit. But a lot of the worst

504
00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:09,050
Speaker 3: things were stopped. And there were Republicans in Congress who

505
00:30:09,090 --> 00:30:11,650
Speaker 3: stood up to him, more than a dozen in the

506
00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:14,110
Speaker 3: House and Senate combined. And, you know, you think of

507
00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:17,650
Speaker 3: the Mitt Romneys and Jeff Flakes and people who voted

508
00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:21,290
Speaker 3: not only for impeachment after January 6th, but who really

509
00:30:21,450 --> 00:30:24,730
Speaker 3: stood in the way of Trump's lawlessness. And in the

510
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,060
Speaker 3: second term, we didn't have any of that. I mean,

511
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: since crazy Thomas Massey lost his primary, there's not a

512
00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: single elected Republican in the House or Senate who has

513
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:41,420
Speaker 3: consistently or in a really meaningful way resisted Trump's authoritarianism.

514
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:45,010
Speaker 3: And I'm not talking here about opposing Trump's policies. You know,

515
00:30:45,370 --> 00:30:48,730
Speaker 3: you can have whatever policy views you want, but Trump

516
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:52,330
Speaker 3: has acted like a dictator And in his second term,

517
00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:55,610
Speaker 3: the constraints just haven't been effective. And so I wanted

518
00:30:55,650 --> 00:30:58,890
Speaker 3: to look at the people and the institutions who, in

519
00:30:58,930 --> 00:31:02,940
Speaker 3: many cases, had previously resisted him in some way. And

520
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 3: in the second term, were going to him on bended

521
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: knee or laying down for him. So that was sort

522
00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:08,580
Speaker 3: of the genesis of the book.

523
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,959
Speaker 1: Who are the cowards and how did you figure them out?

524
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,490
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, there are potentially a lot of nominations

525
00:31:16,750 --> 00:31:19,230
Speaker 3: for this designation. And of course, a lot of people

526
00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:21,310
Speaker 3: have said, you know, only eight. And, you know, what

527
00:31:21,370 --> 00:31:24,830
Speaker 3: about volumes, you know, two through 50? So there are

528
00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:27,070
Speaker 3: a lot. But I wanted to focus on people who

529
00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:32,860
Speaker 3: had institutional responsibility and institutional authority, because the kind of

530
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: cowardice I'm talking about here is a particular kind. It's

531
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,220
Speaker 3: civic cowardice. It's not physical cowardice.

532
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,740
Speaker 1: It's not... No, it can be that.

533
00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: Right.

534
00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:44,250
Speaker 3: It can be that. And I think that's an underappreciated factor.

535
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:46,830
Speaker 3: You know, I think the fear of violence is real.

536
00:31:46,890 --> 00:31:49,950
Speaker 3: It's something people don't talk about enough. Mitt Romney said

537
00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: that he thought Trump would have been convicted in the

538
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 3: Senate if enough senators had bodyguards the way he did,

539
00:31:56,660 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: if they could afford personal security. You know, I think

540
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,510
Speaker 3: when Trump attacks people personally, On social media, it's physically

541
00:32:03,570 --> 00:32:06,490
Speaker 3: menacing because it's a kind of permissioning to the kooks

542
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:09,450
Speaker 3: out there to go do something about it. And of course,

543
00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:11,790
Speaker 3: he says, well, I'm not telling, I'm not calling for violence.

544
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:14,310
Speaker 3: I'm not telling anyone to be violent. But there's an

545
00:32:14,490 --> 00:32:17,590
Speaker 3: atmosphere of violence. And, you know, this is a heavily

546
00:32:17,670 --> 00:32:21,450
Speaker 3: armed country and some of them are fanatical and dangerous.

547
00:32:21,620 --> 00:32:25,340
Speaker 3: I think physical fear is such an understandable, basic human

548
00:32:25,380 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: emotion that, you know, I don't almost don't think of

549
00:32:28,380 --> 00:32:31,380
Speaker 3: that as cowardice. But what I'm really thinking about is

550
00:32:31,660 --> 00:32:36,830
Speaker 3: people who have responsibility to these the basic institutions of

551
00:32:36,890 --> 00:32:42,470
Speaker 3: civil societies, the lawyers and law firms, universities, the business

552
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:46,910
Speaker 3: and finance, the technology world. These people, I think, have

553
00:32:47,050 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: generally taken a super narrow view and said, well, I'm

554
00:32:50,540 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: looking out for myself. I'm looking out for my firm

555
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,780
Speaker 3: or my company. But that is not only, you know,

556
00:32:58,820 --> 00:33:02,660
Speaker 3: incredibly short term because it all depends on the rule

557
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:06,290
Speaker 3: of law and having a functioning democracy and having due process.

558
00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:09,930
Speaker 3: But I think it's also cowardly because I think it's

559
00:33:09,950 --> 00:33:13,650
Speaker 3: a refusal to just accept responsibility that you have as

560
00:33:13,850 --> 00:33:15,370
Speaker 3: whatever kind of leader that you are.

561
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:19,030
Speaker 1: I definitely felt like there were moments where clearly there

562
00:33:19,070 --> 00:33:21,940
Speaker 1: was stuff happening behind the scenes that we weren't seeing.

563
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the RFK confirmation fight. It was clear

564
00:33:26,980 --> 00:33:29,340
Speaker 1: that the people were being, you know, that when you

565
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,979
Speaker 1: looked at the gallery, they were very loud. There was

566
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,140
Speaker 1: clearly we were missing some of the subtext there, I thought.

567
00:33:36,380 --> 00:33:38,110
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. And in that, you know, if

568
00:33:38,150 --> 00:33:40,209
Speaker 3: I'd written a chapter on that, it would have been

569
00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:43,729
Speaker 3: about Bill Cassidy, the Louisiana senator who, you know, was

570
00:33:43,770 --> 00:33:47,050
Speaker 3: a doctor who, you know, who knows better and knows

571
00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:52,670
Speaker 3: how dangerous it was to put someone who's a vaccine denier, who,

572
00:33:52,750 --> 00:33:56,790
Speaker 3: you know, has all of these non-scientific views in charge

573
00:33:57,090 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: of medicine and medical research in this country. You know,

574
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 3: and I think Cassidy was a coward in that situation.

575
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: I think he would have been happy to be the

576
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:08,469
Speaker 3: 52nd vote against RFK Jr., but he wasn't going to

577
00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:12,049
Speaker 3: be the 51st because that would have meant defying Trump. And,

578
00:34:12,170 --> 00:34:15,630
Speaker 3: you know, even after either being defeated in primaries or

579
00:34:15,670 --> 00:34:19,540
Speaker 3: announcing their retirement, So many of these people have voted

580
00:34:19,660 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 3: for Todd Blanch as attorney general. You kind of think,

581
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: you know, what do they have to lose at this point?

582
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 3: But what they have to lose is, I think, social

583
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: standing in their peer groups. I think there's a fear

584
00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:36,549
Speaker 3: of ostracism in the world of Republicans. I think there

585
00:34:36,610 --> 00:34:38,950
Speaker 3: is the fear of violence. And I think there's greed

586
00:34:38,989 --> 00:34:42,210
Speaker 3: and ambition. You know, if you're leaving, I mean, trying to,

587
00:34:42,430 --> 00:34:44,489
Speaker 3: you know, again, kind of ask this question, why is

588
00:34:44,510 --> 00:34:48,290
Speaker 3: there not a single elected Republican standing up to Trump?

589
00:34:48,489 --> 00:34:51,549
Speaker 3: Lots of them are thinking about what their careers look

590
00:34:51,590 --> 00:34:53,670
Speaker 3: like after they leave office. And if they're not going

591
00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:56,130
Speaker 3: to be lobbyists, they want to sit on corporate boards

592
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:58,390
Speaker 3: and they want to have access to power. And that

593
00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 3: translates into money. And if you are perceived as an

594
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:05,779
Speaker 3: enemy of Donald Trump, nobody wants you. A company doesn't

595
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 3: want you. A big Fortune 500 company doesn't want you

596
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 3: on its board. You can't work as a lobbyist in Washington.

597
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:12,770
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think you should work as a

598
00:35:12,810 --> 00:35:15,770
Speaker 3: lobbyist in Washington after you've been in Congress. But the

599
00:35:15,830 --> 00:35:18,010
Speaker 3: fact remains that that's what a lot of them do.

600
00:35:18,250 --> 00:35:20,170
Speaker 3: And a lot of them just think there would be

601
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:22,189
Speaker 3: consequences to doing the right thing.

602
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: Who do you think is the worst, most cowardly in

603
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: this group?

604
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: Well, I would focus on the people whose cowardice has

605
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,939
Speaker 3: had the biggest effect. And there I think you really

606
00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:36,630
Speaker 3: have to talk about Mitch McConnell, because Mitch McConnell is

607
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:40,890
Speaker 3: the one Republican who I think almost by himself had

608
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:44,549
Speaker 3: the chance to prevent Trump's second term. And he could

609
00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: have done that, of course, by getting enough Republicans to

610
00:35:47,940 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: vote to convict Trump on the second impeachment following January 6th.

611
00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 3: And he said he was going to do it. He

612
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: was ready to do it. He told people that what

613
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,130
Speaker 3: Trump had done was an impeachable offense. He said if

614
00:36:00,350 --> 00:36:03,430
Speaker 3: using lies and violence to try to overturn an election,

615
00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:06,069
Speaker 3: he isn't an impeachable offense. I don't know what is.

616
00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:09,050
Speaker 3: And then what happened? I think he read the room.

617
00:36:09,090 --> 00:36:12,530
Speaker 3: He looked at the polls. He saw that his constituents

618
00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:15,630
Speaker 3: and the Republican base were right after January 6th still

619
00:36:15,989 --> 00:36:18,630
Speaker 3: really on Trump's side. And I think he was faced

620
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 3: with the idea, well, I could probably convict him and

621
00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: remove him and prevent him from ever running for president again.

622
00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 3: But it would be at the cost of my career

623
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: as majority leader. You know, I might not be able

624
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: to lead the Republican Party. And because that's his whole

625
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: identity and his whole life has been tied up with

626
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 3: that ambition and that goal. I think he quavered and

627
00:36:38,860 --> 00:36:41,550
Speaker 3: he ended up coming up with specious reason to vote

628
00:36:41,590 --> 00:36:44,930
Speaker 3: against conviction after saying he'd do it. And he didn't.

629
00:36:45,070 --> 00:36:47,029
Speaker 3: And the Republicans who were on the fence, he only

630
00:36:47,070 --> 00:36:49,129
Speaker 3: needed 10 votes, you know, and I think they would

631
00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:51,330
Speaker 3: have followed him. I think he had that authority in

632
00:36:51,370 --> 00:36:55,180
Speaker 3: the Senate. And. they followed him back under. I think

633
00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:57,580
Speaker 3: McConnell had, you know, I think there were other reasons too.

634
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,980
Speaker 3: I think he sees his legacy tied up with producing

635
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,410
Speaker 3: this conservative supermajority on the Supreme Court with conservative dominance

636
00:37:05,590 --> 00:37:09,630
Speaker 3: of the federal judiciary. And he wasn't willing to kind

637
00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:13,700
Speaker 3: of compromise any of that to protect not just the country,

638
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,700
Speaker 3: but the Senate. I mean, this institution he's devoted his

639
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: whole life to because Donald Trump doesn't give a shit

640
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: about the Senate. There are a lot of things the

641
00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:24,700
Speaker 3: Senate would authorize him to do that he doesn't even

642
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,940
Speaker 3: ask because Trump wants to rule as a dictator, not

643
00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:31,450
Speaker 3: as the head of an executive branch in a constitutional

644
00:37:31,489 --> 00:37:34,469
Speaker 3: government with three co-equal branches. So, you know, I call

645
00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:37,130
Speaker 3: that cowardice. I think it's institutional cowardice. I think it's

646
00:37:37,150 --> 00:37:40,710
Speaker 3: civic cowardice. I think it's moral cowardice. The component of

647
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:42,410
Speaker 3: the kind of physical cowardice.

648
00:37:42,430 --> 00:37:43,180
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's there.

649
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 3: That's part of it. But that's not the big thing.

650
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: Don't you think McConnell is more craven than cowardly? Like

651
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:54,370
Speaker 1: the calculus. Like I think of Cassidy as being scared.

652
00:37:54,650 --> 00:37:58,390
Speaker 1: And I think of Jeff Flake as being scared, right?

653
00:37:58,510 --> 00:38:01,870
Speaker 1: But McConnell, it strikes me, I mean, I guess he

654
00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:04,509
Speaker 1: was scared, but mostly wasn't he sort of making a

655
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:06,510
Speaker 1: calculus that it would serve him better?

656
00:38:06,530 --> 00:38:08,489
Speaker 3: I don't know that it was a calculus. I think

657
00:38:08,530 --> 00:38:10,930
Speaker 3: it was more of a psychological reaction. You know, I

658
00:38:10,989 --> 00:38:14,980
Speaker 3: think Trump has bullied him. really badly and really effectively.

659
00:38:15,219 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 3: And if you read Mitch McConnell's memoir, and I don't

660
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,299
Speaker 3: know how many people did, but I'm one of them,

661
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,509
Speaker 3: his identity is very much defined by an incident he

662
00:38:23,550 --> 00:38:26,690
Speaker 3: describes when he was a kid, when he was being bullied,

663
00:38:26,890 --> 00:38:29,470
Speaker 3: and his father made him stand up to this bully.

664
00:38:29,610 --> 00:38:31,690
Speaker 3: And he was eight years old or something, but he

665
00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:34,420
Speaker 3: punched this kid and defended himself. And that's like a

666
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 3: turning point in his psychological life where he says, you know,

667
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,100
Speaker 3: I can stand up for myself. Well, Trump comes into office.

668
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,540
Speaker 3: His dad's not there. He's being bullied and really bullied.

669
00:38:44,580 --> 00:38:47,169
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what Trump does. You know, makes racist

670
00:38:47,250 --> 00:38:51,350
Speaker 3: comments about his wife, Elaine Chao, kind of threatens him,

671
00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:54,210
Speaker 3: calls him a pathetic, calls him Old Crow, which I

672
00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:56,969
Speaker 3: got to say is not a bad nickname. And McConnell

673
00:38:57,010 --> 00:39:00,100
Speaker 3: reacts like someone, you know, who's feeling that kind of

674
00:39:00,219 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: primordial terror again. And, you know, again, you know, to

675
00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:06,100
Speaker 3: call it cowardice, I mean, I think you can understand

676
00:39:06,219 --> 00:39:09,060
Speaker 3: it in a lot of ways. And sure, it's cravenness

677
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:12,700
Speaker 3: or can be explained by his other goals. But if

678
00:39:12,739 --> 00:39:16,140
Speaker 3: you were Mitch McConnell, you have a responsibility to prevent

679
00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:19,730
Speaker 3: the United States from turning into an elective dictatorship. And

680
00:39:19,890 --> 00:39:22,710
Speaker 3: if you don't do it, certainly not courage. And it's

681
00:39:22,850 --> 00:39:24,710
Speaker 3: what's the opposite of courage? It's cowardice.

682
00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:28,310
Speaker 1: Who else makes it on the list that's interesting we

683
00:39:28,350 --> 00:39:29,150
Speaker 1: should talk about?

684
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:32,290
Speaker 3: Well, there's a chap. about Bezos, who I think is

685
00:39:32,330 --> 00:39:35,410
Speaker 3: a really interesting case because he was great in Trump won.

686
00:39:35,810 --> 00:39:37,470
Speaker 3: And couldn't have been better in Trump 1 and couldn't

687
00:39:37,489 --> 00:39:40,620
Speaker 3: have been worse in Trump 2. So Trump 1, Trump

688
00:39:40,660 --> 00:39:43,860
Speaker 3: not only threatened him as owner of The Washington Post

689
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 3: because he didn't like The Washington Post's tough coverage, but

690
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,100
Speaker 3: he punished him. He took a $ 10 billion Pentagon contract

691
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,259
Speaker 3: away from Amazon, a cloud computing contract that I think

692
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:57,500
Speaker 3: was supposed to be the biggest contract ever awarded by

693
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,140
Speaker 3: the Pentagon. I mean, that's a big hit. And Bezos

694
00:40:01,219 --> 00:40:04,020
Speaker 3: sued and he semi prevailed in the case. And he's

695
00:40:04,060 --> 00:40:07,310
Speaker 3: now got part of the contract back. He did exactly

696
00:40:07,410 --> 00:40:09,589
Speaker 3: what he should have done. And The Washington Post was

697
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:13,009
Speaker 3: fantastic in the first term. And the competition between The

698
00:40:13,050 --> 00:40:15,930
Speaker 3: Washington Post and The New York Times in particular, you know,

699
00:40:16,050 --> 00:40:20,610
Speaker 3: drove that. accountability of Donald Trump, holding him accountable for

700
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:22,379
Speaker 3: what he did in the first term. And second term,

701
00:40:22,620 --> 00:40:26,140
Speaker 3: business is down there on bended knee, paying effectively a

702
00:40:26,180 --> 00:40:31,049
Speaker 3: bribe to Trump and Melania by buying the Melania documentary

703
00:40:31,070 --> 00:40:34,910
Speaker 3: for Amazon Prime for, you know, ridiculous price, effectively putting,

704
00:40:34,930 --> 00:40:38,830
Speaker 3: you know, $ 30 million or more in her pocket. And he,

705
00:40:39,370 --> 00:40:42,860
Speaker 3: you know, he he he stopped the Washington Post endorsement

706
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: of Kamala Harris. I mean, he just he was ready

707
00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: to give. And so why was he ready to give?

708
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: Why was it so different? My reading on him is

709
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 3: that it has more to do than anything else with

710
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 3: his lifelong ambitions around space. This is a guy like

711
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: a lot of these tech people, you know, he's like

712
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 3: lives in this kind of science fiction world. He loves

713
00:41:01,060 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 3: Star Trek, but he's grown up since he was like

714
00:41:03,420 --> 00:41:05,740
Speaker 3: a kid since he was in high school with this

715
00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:10,170
Speaker 3: idea that, you know, we should build orbiting space colonies.

716
00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:13,009
Speaker 3: That's why he started this other company, Blue Origin. And

717
00:41:13,050 --> 00:41:17,190
Speaker 3: Blue Origin was getting clobbered by SpaceX and by Elon Musk.

718
00:41:17,290 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 3: And that business depends almost entirely on government contracts from

719
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:25,060
Speaker 3: NASA and the Pentagon. And I think he saw the

720
00:41:25,100 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: thing that he really cares about much more than Amazon

721
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 3: in a way slipping away from him. And he knew

722
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,540
Speaker 3: he had to get in bed with Donald Trump to

723
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: kind of pursue that dream.

724
00:41:35,260 --> 00:41:38,500
Speaker 1: Not to be annoying here, but. Isn't that still kind

725
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,460
Speaker 1: of like more craven than cowardly? Like I think of

726
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,450
Speaker 1: cowardly as more like you're trying to protect things you

727
00:41:45,489 --> 00:41:48,620
Speaker 1: might lose than get things you might. You know what

728
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,990
Speaker 1: I mean? Like he was in a position of strength.

729
00:41:51,050 --> 00:41:53,550
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just like it strikes me he was

730
00:41:53,790 --> 00:41:56,770
Speaker 1: in a position of strength. Maybe he wouldn't get what

731
00:41:56,950 --> 00:42:00,989
Speaker 1: Elon got, but that sort of the play was was

732
00:42:01,070 --> 00:42:03,550
Speaker 1: for more not to protect what he had.

733
00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:04,170
Speaker 4: Yeah.

734
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:06,529
Speaker 3: I mean, not to, you know, get too semantic about it.

735
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:08,410
Speaker 3: I mean, cowardice is, you know, is a kind of

736
00:42:08,570 --> 00:42:10,930
Speaker 3: broad designation, which we're going to cover a lot of sins.

737
00:42:10,989 --> 00:42:13,569
Speaker 3: But I think you just answered your own question when

738
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:16,670
Speaker 3: you said, you know, doesn't that mean you're unwilling to

739
00:42:16,750 --> 00:42:18,650
Speaker 3: give up something or afraid to give up something? I

740
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:21,529
Speaker 3: think this is exactly the thing Bezos couldn't give up

741
00:42:21,610 --> 00:42:24,009
Speaker 3: is his dream of space. You know, and it's not

742
00:42:24,030 --> 00:42:25,970
Speaker 3: your dream. It's not my dream. So that might not

743
00:42:26,030 --> 00:42:28,450
Speaker 3: seem very real to either of us. But, you know,

744
00:42:28,510 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 3: having dug in deep to this and, you know, read

745
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,940
Speaker 3: everything he's written and watched all these speeches, I think

746
00:42:33,980 --> 00:42:36,420
Speaker 3: that's what he cares about. I think he started Amazon

747
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,140
Speaker 3: so he could build colonies in space. And so that

748
00:42:40,219 --> 00:42:41,969
Speaker 3: is what I think he was afraid to give up.

749
00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:45,470
Speaker 1: Do you think that this moment to the book Profiles

750
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:49,390
Speaker 1: in Courage, that there's a way through this cowardice? Like,

751
00:42:49,530 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: does this provide a roadmap out of this current situation?

752
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,620
Speaker 3: I'm not sure it's a roadmap. I do think shame

753
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: is part of what's needed to bring these institutions and

754
00:43:01,140 --> 00:43:05,860
Speaker 3: people back to a sense of their public responsibilities. I think,

755
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 3: you know, it may be starting to shift. I mean,

756
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,500
Speaker 3: it's been predicted before and it hasn't happened and it's

757
00:43:12,540 --> 00:43:16,970
Speaker 3: early days. And, you know, there aren't any elected Republicans

758
00:43:17,250 --> 00:43:19,870
Speaker 3: standing up to Trump in a meaningful way. But look

759
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:22,350
Speaker 3: at Mark Carney, the leader of the free world. Look

760
00:43:22,370 --> 00:43:24,930
Speaker 3: what he's doing. He's standing up to Trump. I think

761
00:43:24,989 --> 00:43:28,450
Speaker 3: when you see people do it and survive and behave

762
00:43:28,489 --> 00:43:31,140
Speaker 3: in an admirable way, the kind of the cowardice is

763
00:43:31,180 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: contagious and the courage is contagious. And I think you're

764
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,900
Speaker 3: maybe starting to see a little more of that, you know,

765
00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 3: with the universities. I thought Harvard was going to cave.

766
00:43:39,780 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: I thought Harvard was going to make a deal with Trump.

767
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,140
Speaker 3: It was reported again and again that they were on

768
00:43:44,180 --> 00:43:46,250
Speaker 3: the verge of one. Now, I don't think they are,

769
00:43:46,430 --> 00:43:48,469
Speaker 3: partly because there's been a lot of pressure in the

770
00:43:48,510 --> 00:43:52,290
Speaker 3: other direction. Their own constituencies have said this would be

771
00:43:52,330 --> 00:43:56,500
Speaker 3: terrible and a betrayal of our fundamental mission and a

772
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,140
Speaker 3: betrayal of academic freedom and academic integrity. I think it

773
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,959
Speaker 3: makes it very hard for them to make a deal.

774
00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:06,049
Speaker 3: But I also think the president of Harvard has Alan

775
00:44:06,070 --> 00:44:08,489
Speaker 3: Garber is kind of like found his nerve, you know,

776
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:10,370
Speaker 3: and I don't think he's going to make a deal.

777
00:44:10,410 --> 00:44:12,770
Speaker 3: Certainly not going to make a deal. Democrats take back

778
00:44:12,830 --> 00:44:17,089
Speaker 3: Congress in November. So Trump came after Yale more recently.

779
00:44:17,140 --> 00:44:19,700
Speaker 3: You know, he cares about these elite institutions. He wants

780
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 3: them to be the ones to capitulate because everyone else

781
00:44:22,420 --> 00:44:24,380
Speaker 3: will have to fold. And I think Yale was on

782
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,260
Speaker 3: the verge of a deal. Maury McGinnis, who's the relatively

783
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:30,549
Speaker 3: new president, was going to pay a fine to the

784
00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:35,370
Speaker 3: Justice Department and say, oh, we're very sorry. That suit

785
00:44:35,410 --> 00:44:39,219
Speaker 3: was particularly about the claim that they discriminated against white

786
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: people in admissions to medical school and law school.

787
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,540
Speaker 1: Very stupid. did.

788
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,460
Speaker 3: But anyway, I don't think it's going to happen because

789
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: I think there's pushback on the other side. And, you know,

790
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,580
Speaker 3: when you start to stand up, it feels good to

791
00:44:50,620 --> 00:44:53,100
Speaker 3: stand up when you see other people standing up. It's

792
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,820
Speaker 3: very much hanging in the balance right now. I think Trump,

793
00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:58,549
Speaker 3: in a way, becomes more extreme and more dangerous when

794
00:44:58,610 --> 00:45:01,270
Speaker 3: he's less popular and when people do start to say

795
00:45:01,330 --> 00:45:03,670
Speaker 3: no to him. But, you know, the people who count

796
00:45:03,830 --> 00:45:07,090
Speaker 3: the Republicans in the House and Senate, nobody's doing it

797
00:45:07,150 --> 00:45:09,629
Speaker 3: until we see that. I don't think we can say

798
00:45:09,710 --> 00:45:11,550
Speaker 3: that anything's fundamentally changing.

799
00:45:11,810 --> 00:45:15,450
Speaker 1: It's hard because there certainly is a feeling that this

800
00:45:15,550 --> 00:45:19,060
Speaker 1: guy is not going to stop until someone stands up

801
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: to him. And then it feels as if they're allergic

802
00:45:22,860 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: to standing up to him. Yeah.

803
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,380
Speaker 3: I mean, look, everybody craves this, you know, sir, have

804
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,590
Speaker 3: you no shame moment, you know, from the Army McCarthy hearings.

805
00:45:31,770 --> 00:45:33,989
Speaker 3: You know, that's It's probably not going to happen that way.

806
00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:36,989
Speaker 3: I mean, lots of people have looked for that opportunity. But,

807
00:45:37,070 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know that you're going to get

808
00:45:38,550 --> 00:45:41,580
Speaker 3: Trump in that kind of public posture where there is

809
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,859
Speaker 3: a kind of public humiliation. Maybe there will be.

810
00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:45,380
Speaker 4: Who knows?

811
00:45:45,420 --> 00:45:47,790
Speaker 3: To see someone who certainly doesn't feel any shame, is

812
00:45:47,830 --> 00:45:50,270
Speaker 3: not capable of shame. I just think it has to

813
00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:52,930
Speaker 3: be a groundswell. And I think, you know, the first

814
00:45:53,090 --> 00:45:54,910
Speaker 3: one is the hardest and the second one is the

815
00:45:54,969 --> 00:45:57,230
Speaker 3: second hardest. But then when you have half a dozen

816
00:45:57,290 --> 00:46:00,370
Speaker 3: or a dozen, say, Republican House members, you know, whatever

817
00:46:00,390 --> 00:46:04,110
Speaker 3: their politics, but saying, for example, that it's up to

818
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:07,770
Speaker 3: Congress to decide about tariffs because the Constitution gives the

819
00:46:07,810 --> 00:46:10,790
Speaker 3: taxing power to Congress. If a few of them started

820
00:46:10,890 --> 00:46:14,910
Speaker 3: to assert simply their institutional prerogative and say, we don't

821
00:46:14,969 --> 00:46:17,489
Speaker 3: live in a dictatorship, then I think the dam could

822
00:46:17,530 --> 00:46:19,049
Speaker 3: break and something could really change.

823
00:46:19,330 --> 00:46:22,220
Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, thank you, thank you, thank you.

824
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,259
Speaker 3: Molly, it's fun talking to you. And now your moment

825
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:28,020
Speaker 3: of suffering.

826
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon.

827
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: Molly Jungfast, so you may have forgotten about this fellow

828
00:46:33,460 --> 00:46:38,310
Speaker 2: named Michael Alfonso. He's former reality show and transportation secretary,

829
00:46:38,370 --> 00:46:42,330
Speaker 2: Sean Duffy's son-in-law, and he's running for Congress, but he's

830
00:46:42,370 --> 00:46:44,130
Speaker 2: getting some strange donations.

831
00:46:44,370 --> 00:46:48,710
Speaker 1: So this is like a rando congressional seat in Wisconsin. Yeah.

832
00:46:48,910 --> 00:46:54,220
Speaker 1: He's gotten $ 1. 3 million from at least 25 transportation executives,

833
00:46:54,380 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: industry lobbyists, and corporate PACs. Why would the son-in-law of

834
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: the transportation secretary get all this money from transportation executives,

835
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:09,890
Speaker 1: industry lobbyists, and corporate PACs? It's as if they would

836
00:47:09,969 --> 00:47:13,950
Speaker 1: want to influence his future. father-in-laws. This is what I'm

837
00:47:13,969 --> 00:47:17,549
Speaker 1: talking about. This is like the klepocracy of this administration, right?

838
00:47:17,690 --> 00:47:20,930
Speaker 1: You're giving money to the son-in-law in the hopes that

839
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:24,029
Speaker 1: it will help you with the father-in-law, who is the

840
00:47:24,070 --> 00:47:27,450
Speaker 1: transportation secretary. You know where this didn't happen? When Mayor

841
00:47:27,590 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: Pete was transportation secretary. Like, say what you will about

842
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,820
Speaker 1: Mayor Pete. You may not have liked his McKinsey speak,

843
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,460
Speaker 1: but my man was not raising money for his son-in-law's

844
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,859
Speaker 1: congressional candidacy. You This is just so fucking sketchy. And,

845
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,259
Speaker 1: you know, he's 26 years old. He's running for Congress.

846
00:47:46,489 --> 00:47:49,830
Speaker 1: David Parker, the chairman and CEO of the trucking company

847
00:47:49,969 --> 00:47:55,009
Speaker 1: Convenient Logistics, and his wife, they gave $ 10, 000 to this campaign.

848
00:47:55,110 --> 00:47:58,730
Speaker 1: But why? They have no connection to Wisconsin. But you

849
00:47:58,750 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: know what? Weeks later, Duffy's department renewed convenience exemption from

850
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:08,700
Speaker 1: a federal driver suspension requirement for another five years. That's right.

851
00:48:09,020 --> 00:48:12,290
Speaker 1: They're donating money so that they can get special favors

852
00:48:12,469 --> 00:48:15,989
Speaker 1: from the transportation secretary. Not how the federal government is

853
00:48:16,030 --> 00:48:19,569
Speaker 1: supposed to work, but here we are. That's it for

854
00:48:19,610 --> 00:48:26,350
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday,

855
00:48:26,550 --> 00:48:30,430
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds in politics make

856
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:34,529
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

857
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:38,370
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

858
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:39,910
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.