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Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in through your nose.

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Speaker 2: Holds it.

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Speaker 1: Now, release slowly again deep in, helle hold release, repeating

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Speaker 1: internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I

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Speaker 1: am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply wow.

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Speaker 1: I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on

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Speaker 1: your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,

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Speaker 1: and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.

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Speaker 1: This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Deeply Well. This podcast we are deeply

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Speaker 1: exploring pathways to inner peace, connection and healing. And I

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Speaker 1: am so excited. As always, I'm your host, Debbie Brown,

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Speaker 1: and today I am just absolutely honored to be joined

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Speaker 1: by a true force in the world of psychology, healing

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Speaker 1: and spiritual restoration. Today's guest is the renowned doctor Tama Bryant,

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Speaker 1: a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher

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Speaker 1: and minister. Doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best

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Speaker 1: selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher, and minister. Doctor Tama made

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Speaker 1: history in twenty twenty three as the youngest female president

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Speaker 1: of the American Psychological Association. She has now just released

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Speaker 1: her newest book, Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship

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Speaker 1: with yourself and those you love, through Penguin Random House.

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Speaker 1: Matters of the Heart combines the wisdom of science, spirituality,

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Speaker 1: and real life experiences to help readers tend to their

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Speaker 1: emotional wellbeing and build meaningful connections. Doctor Tama provides evidence

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Speaker 1: based practices, essential relationship skills, and strategies to address common

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Speaker 1: relational struggles. She is on a mission to help individuals

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Speaker 1: reclaim their sense of self and well being in the

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Speaker 1: face of trauma and oppressive systems. She completed her doctorate

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Speaker 1: in clinical psychology at Duke University, followed by postdoctoral training

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Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence Program. Now a

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Speaker 1: tenured professor at Pepperdine University, she focuses her research and

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Speaker 1: clinical practice on interpersonal trauma and the societal impact of oppression.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here,

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Speaker 1: doctor Tama.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I am so

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Speaker 2: excited to be in this soft place to land with you.

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Speaker 1: Begin Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: I just want to reflect deep gratitude to you for

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Speaker 1: the work that you do. The way your work has

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Speaker 1: moved in the world, I think really came so far

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Speaker 1: ahead of what we are now maybe beginning to think

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Speaker 1: is commonplace casual understanding of how our pathts affect us,

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Speaker 1: and how childhood especially affect us, and how trauma affects us.

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Speaker 1: And I think for so many people, mental health and

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Speaker 1: faith has been such a disjointed body. Right, there's this

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Speaker 1: idea that trauma belongs over here. Faith and church and

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Speaker 1: God and ministry belong here, family belongs here, personal responsibility

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Speaker 1: belongs here, and everything. You know, there were all of

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Speaker 1: these pieces I think that people were really screaming for

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Speaker 1: help in and it. It isn't until recently that it's

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Speaker 1: really understood how holistic it all is, and how it

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Speaker 1: really is a true blend of everything all at once

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Speaker 1: and we have to approach it that way. But that

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Speaker 1: has been your call and your work.

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Speaker 2: How did you.

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Speaker 1: Begin to really in all the processes, see those connections

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Speaker 1: and put all of those puzzle pieces together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that. I would say it is

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Speaker 2: at the roots afrocentric. So in afrocentric psychology, afrocentric philosophy,

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Speaker 2: there is not a false dichotomy it's not like are

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Speaker 2: you spiritual or secular? Are you creative or intellectual? It's

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Speaker 2: all one. And so I grew up with that as

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Speaker 2: a foundation that it wasn't like are you going to

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Speaker 2: be focused in school or are you going to pray?

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Speaker 2: Like that question would never be asked. It was to

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Speaker 2: be the fullness of who you are. And so and

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Speaker 2: at the roots, psychology used to incorporate more at spirituality.

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Speaker 2: Psychology actually means study of the soul, and so the

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Speaker 2: founders of the field were often people of faith. But

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Speaker 2: then there was a detour as we try to prove

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Speaker 2: ourselves to be scientific. So in order to be worthy

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Speaker 2: of being a science, we had to discard all the

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Speaker 2: things we could not easily prove. And so there has

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Speaker 2: been a reclamation of return to not only reclaiming spirituality,

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Speaker 2: but also reclaiming the body. Yeah, I mean the body

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Speaker 2: so important.

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Speaker 1: And it's so interesting the way just to be alive

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Speaker 1: right now, I think that's a loaded statement because it

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Speaker 1: is interesting for many reasons, but especially I think in

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Speaker 1: it does feel like a time where we do if

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Speaker 1: you're awake and aware for it, get to come home

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Speaker 1: to yourself, yes, and understand that the human experience is

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Speaker 1: all of those facets. You know, whenever we've spoken to mind, body,

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Speaker 1: and soul. I think for so many years, it's still

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Speaker 1: not understood that is actually what your human experience is.

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Speaker 1: You are having the experience of your mind, of your body,

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Speaker 1: of your soul, and our work is to integrate.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because when we are seen and valued only

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Speaker 2: for our labor, then these systems benefit from the disconnection. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a living soul if I am just your laborer. Right,

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Speaker 2: my heart doesn't matter, my body doesn't matter. And so

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Speaker 2: to resist that notion that the ways in which I

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Speaker 2: build up other institutions and systems is my worth and value,

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Speaker 2: which is often for women and people of color, that

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Speaker 2: has often been the narrative. And so to reject all

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Speaker 2: of that and say, when I'm just sitting here on

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Speaker 2: the couch, the two of us sitting here on the

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Speaker 2: couch are worthy. Yeah, we're our real sip and tea

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Speaker 2: and worthy. Yes, yes, yeah, that's the healing and the realization.

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Speaker 2: To come home to myself is to tell myself the truth,

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Speaker 2: and the truth is I am more than what I

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Speaker 2: do for others. I am a living soul.

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Speaker 1: That line you set it just hit me in such

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Speaker 1: a special place. You're telling the truth, Yeah, you're telling

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Speaker 1: the truth. I remember a huge, a huge moment in

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Speaker 1: my walk with God and the building of my faith

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Speaker 1: was I was in so many dark places at once,

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Speaker 1: and I remember, and I've always been very wellness focused

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Speaker 1: and very holistic and very much and endure someone with

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of resilience. But I remember this phrase

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Speaker 1: came in. I just kept saying, like, God, what like

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Speaker 1: what I've surrendered?

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Speaker 2: Like what is?

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Speaker 1: And what else do I need to know? And the

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Speaker 1: exact wordage that came through was I accept the truth

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Speaker 1: of my life. And it's like that it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to have a definition. And I think when people think

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Speaker 1: of understanding their truth or who and what they are,

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Speaker 1: they think it also has to be quantified or they

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Speaker 1: have to know what that is, or it has to

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Speaker 1: even be words that fill that space. And it's like

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Speaker 1: that peace, like right when you said it, It's like

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Speaker 1: truth is so much and it's not just the language.

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Speaker 2: We have access to. One of my dear friends, Asia

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Speaker 2: a Devo, is a poet and she has a poem

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Speaker 2: that says, who lied right? Who lied to you? That

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Speaker 2: told you a false sense of yourself. And we have

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Speaker 2: experience and people that presented us with lies from very

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Speaker 2: early and so it is the discarding and shedding of

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Speaker 2: those lies so that I can know my worthiness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, before we get into the book, I would just

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Speaker 1: love to ask a question to understand what makes such

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Speaker 1: a unique being such as yourself. So your work it's

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Speaker 1: deeply rooted in healing, in psychology and spirituality. What were

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Speaker 1: some of the moments in your life that really, as

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Speaker 1: you were in these different kind of facets of yourself,

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Speaker 1: really understood your call and understood to blend them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think one it's what in some settings

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Speaker 2: can be seen as a weakness is actually your strength.

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Speaker 2: And so growing up I would be what was called

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Speaker 2: a sensitive child and right here we are, here we are. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like you know, I remember reading the story of

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Speaker 2: the Ugly Ducklan and I cried, Okay, so you feel

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Speaker 2: things so deeply and in certain settings like that's a problem.

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Speaker 2: But when you discover what you're here for, it's like, yes,

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Speaker 2: you needed to. You had to be made that way

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Speaker 2: right so that you could feel and be tender and

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Speaker 2: notice things people don't notice right and pay attention. So

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Speaker 2: I would say that sensitivity, just like at my heart

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Speaker 2: and nature has been really important in my shaping. And

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Speaker 2: then because my dad was a pastor, he would do

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Speaker 2: what they would call pastoral counseling, so instead of people

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Speaker 2: calling a therapist or a life coach, they would usually

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Speaker 2: speak to their minister. And so I say in my

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Speaker 2: prior book, Homecome, my first time working a crisis hotline

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Speaker 2: was as a kid because people would call the house

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Speaker 2: and they didn't care who answered the phone. They were

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Speaker 2: just you answer. They're crying and I'm like hello, So

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Speaker 2: that kind of nourishing, right. And my mother at some

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Speaker 2: when I was like in middle school, she went into

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Speaker 2: ministry as well, but focused on women's ministry, so you know,

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Speaker 2: for me later to become the president of the Society

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Speaker 2: for the Psychology of Women, as you know, I grew

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Speaker 2: up seeing her do the work right, so having that compassion.

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Speaker 2: And then I primarily grew up in Baltimore, which, while

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Speaker 2: it's beautiful culturally, also has a lot of community violence.

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Speaker 2: I had the wonderful experience of in high school moving

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Speaker 2: to Liberia, West Africa with my family, and the first

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Speaker 2: year and a half was amazing because I was celebrated right,

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Speaker 2: and because everyone in the position of authority look like me,

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Speaker 2: So it really expands your idea of what you can be. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: the second year, toward the end of the second year,

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Speaker 2: there was a civil war. So, you know, me dedicating

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Speaker 2: my life to trauma recovery, you know, is what I

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Speaker 2: have seen and to know that it's possible, that it's

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Speaker 2: devastating and it doesn't have to be the end of

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Speaker 2: our story. Wow.

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Speaker 1: In those two places, I'm so curious, were there any

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Speaker 1: differences in the ways that you saw people process trauma

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Speaker 1: and pain.

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Speaker 2: What I noticed in the community in Baltimore was more

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Speaker 2: suppression and that the rule is to keep it moving.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of you know, performing well.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So when people say how are you, I'm good, good, right.

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Speaker 2: Or in the church community, I'm blessed. I'm better than

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Speaker 2: I do it, blessed and highly favor So we you know,

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Speaker 2: affirm ourselves even when we're struggling on the inside. So

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Speaker 2: there is not a lot of permission or space to

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Speaker 2: be broken hearted. Yeah, and that it is more acceptable

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Speaker 2: to be harsh than to be shattered. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a lot of warriors.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait a minute, let's sit there because that landed,

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Speaker 1: that landed in somebody. And we on this show we

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Speaker 1: explore trauma a lot and self healing alive. And that's

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Speaker 1: the piece, right that I think is really confusing. And

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Speaker 1: I can only speak to the experiences that I have

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Speaker 1: really studied this in. But within black families, yes, the

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Speaker 1: harshness that can come from your family, from your parents,

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Speaker 1: this idea of you know, well, the world ain't easy.

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Speaker 2: So got to prepare you. So that's the idea is

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Speaker 2: that I'm toughening you up so the world doesn't devour you.

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Speaker 2: So it comes for some people from a place of love,

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Speaker 2: from good intention, but can destroy people's spirits if you're

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Speaker 2: a more soft person or amplify and celebrate the hardness,

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Speaker 2: and then there is not room for our humanity, right

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Speaker 2: because I got to be a warrior at eight, right,

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Speaker 2: And so there is, yeah, a pressure in order to

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Speaker 2: survive is like don't be soft. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that you just said, where

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like this harshness. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: the people with the harshness and we too on the

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Speaker 1: receiving end, believe it comes from love, but it comes

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Speaker 1: from a lack of practice.

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Speaker 2: Of love.

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Speaker 1: You know, it comes from people that haven't even had

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Speaker 1: the chants to practice love for themselves, so they don't

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Speaker 1: understand how to live it as a verb. And yeah, wow.

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Speaker 2: And I want to acknowledge historically there wasn't space for that.

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Speaker 2: It's like there wasn't space. What people say, like I

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Speaker 2: would be depressed, but I don't have time right there,

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Speaker 2: So it is to take up space that had been

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Speaker 2: generationally denied. Right, So people don't know how to lead

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Speaker 2: you to what they could never do. And so then

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Speaker 2: we are carrying people call it ancestral wounds or intergenerational wounds.

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Speaker 2: But the gift is that we can shift it right

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Speaker 2: and by our example show that there's another way. So

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Speaker 2: while we honor, what I like to say is, you know,

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Speaker 2: the ways you survived are not always the ways you

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Speaker 2: want to live. So it's like, that's how you made

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Speaker 2: it out of there. My mom was one of ten

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Speaker 2: in the projects of New York, so she had to

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Speaker 2: know how to fight right, and and so we honor

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Speaker 2: that that's how you made it through that season. But

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Speaker 2: then there are those of us who are not in

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Speaker 2: crisis mode but still have not learned how to take

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Speaker 2: off our armor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Now when you witnessed in Liberia the processing

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Speaker 1: maybe of intergenerational trauma or of civil war trauma, are

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Speaker 1: there any differences culturally to how people process in that

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Speaker 1: area in other areas. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The two things that come to mind are and we

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Speaker 2: have a taste of the first one. We have a

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Speaker 2: taste of both of them. It just had to get

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Speaker 2: diluted and shifted in our transition. But in Liberia they

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Speaker 2: grieve and this is what we see with you would

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Speaker 2: see like at some funerals and like a black church

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Speaker 2: or people would be like oh right, because there's not

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Speaker 2: this suppression that you see like at the opera of

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Speaker 2: having to like contain and censor. It is like a

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Speaker 2: full body release and it is evidence of love. Like

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Speaker 2: if you don't like lay in the floor, you didn't

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Speaker 2: love them, right, So there is a call and an

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Speaker 2: expectation to freely feel your feelings. Right. And then the

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Speaker 2: other piece that comes to mind is the truth telling

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Speaker 2: and not sugarcoating. So like here, especially as a therapist,

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Speaker 2: if we were going to have a support group through

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Speaker 2: people for people who went through a hard time, we

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Speaker 2: might say like women with Wings support group, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't call it something very flowery, and they literally

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Speaker 2: the aftermath of the war had a group called Women

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Speaker 2: with Rape Babies. Oh, I guess the name of the group, right.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, we're gonna call it what it is.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, and people are gonna come, well, how

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Speaker 2: else will they know that this is for them?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: My god? Oh my god, yeah, my god. So there

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Speaker 2: there's truth. There's truth.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that I mean, my god. The power in

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Speaker 1: that truth, like the power in calling a thing a thing, yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the power in being clear and saying

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Speaker 1: what happened to you people, being clear that that's what

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Speaker 1: happened to you, that if.

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Speaker 2: Not my shame or my secret. It's like this is

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Speaker 2: me and this is the baby and we're all here together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Mmm wow.

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Speaker 1: That is something just kind of in the work that

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Speaker 1: I do has actually been coming up now more than ever,

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Speaker 1: Like when I'm guiding retreats or when we're doing you know,

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Speaker 1: some trauma and form facilitation. Those are some of the

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Speaker 1: stories that have been coming up so much more. I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to stay here, but I'm just feeling

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Speaker 1: so led to like be in the seat of this

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Speaker 1: for a second. You know, when it comes to things

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Speaker 1: like that that feel so garish, right, that feels so

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Speaker 1: in the underbelly of wellness, because we have wellness in

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Speaker 1: a lot of tears right now, right, And wellness quote

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Speaker 1: unquote as an industry is this nearly five trillion dollar industry.

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Speaker 1: The majority of that industry is centered in fitness, like

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Speaker 1: that's being under the umbrella of wellness. But people are

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Speaker 1: thinking that wellness and mental health and trauma are all

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Speaker 1: kind of these interchangeable words, and they are all companion words,

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Speaker 1: but they're not replacing each other. And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of the ways that wellness and mental health is spoken

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Speaker 1: to it in this day and age, it's really from

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Speaker 1: the lens of anxiety, and it's really from the lens

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Speaker 1: of kind of depression, but more so the daily hardship

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Speaker 1: depressions of the world or of some you know, charged

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Speaker 1: and unfair experiences and adverse experiences. But there is hundreds

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Speaker 1: of millions of people that don't necessarily know where they

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Speaker 1: fit in this conversation because when they're coming into these

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Speaker 1: spaces and people are sharing about what is absolutely important

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Speaker 1: and impactful in their lives. But then you do have

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Speaker 1: a percentage of the population that feels a little more

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Speaker 1: impossible to them to connect to this world. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: just for anybody listening right now that resonated with that

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Speaker 1: experience or an experience that is a lot harder to

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Speaker 1: stay out loud in front of a group or to

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Speaker 1: find pride in, how does one begin to approach that

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Speaker 1: truth in their life?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say to first whisper it to yourself? Right?

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Speaker 2: The first person I confess it to is me, you know.

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Speaker 2: So one of the invitations that I invite people to

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Speaker 2: is can you say I miss me? I miss me,

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Speaker 2: and that acknowledges that who I have had to be

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Speaker 2: there are some parts of me that are missing, that

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Speaker 2: got discarded along the way, that got hidden along the way,

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Speaker 2: that got hurt along the way. And so in order

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Speaker 2: to heal, I have to first be able to see

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Speaker 2: the distinction between myself and my wound. And sometimes we

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Speaker 2: are identifying with the wound, like, oh, that's just how

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Speaker 2: I am. No, that's how you became.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I miss me who could sleep well at night.

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Speaker 2: I miss me who felt more confident. I miss me

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Speaker 2: that didn't have this other stuff attached to my intimacy.

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Speaker 2: I miss me And so we can whether we journal

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Speaker 2: that or speak that out loud. A truth confessed to

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Speaker 2: the self is already a powerful truth. It's already instead

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Speaker 2: of like I'm good, I'm good, it didn't bother me,

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Speaker 2: I don't think about it. I'm fine, and it's no

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Speaker 2: I miss me and I had to become this other

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Speaker 2: version of myself and there are some parts of me

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Speaker 2: I want to get back. Thank you, and then picking

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Speaker 2: friends that cultivate truth telling, right, It's like, because if

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Speaker 2: I have to perform with you, like you're not really

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Speaker 2: my friend, you know, and that may be something you're

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Speaker 2: doing or the story I have told myself, But a

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Speaker 2: part of my healing is you know, even if I

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Speaker 2: don't like get up and on social media and tell

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Speaker 2: the whole story, is there anyone you tell it to? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Deeply? Well, you know the books that you've released before

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Speaker 1: this one that we're gonna step into. I mean just

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Speaker 1: you've been doing this work for so long, for so long,

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Speaker 1: and I thank you, and I just really want to

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Speaker 1: keep saying that. And I really thank you because doing

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Speaker 1: work like this before most people even understood any of

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Speaker 1: the connections, right, Like, it's a heavy work. It is

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Speaker 1: such a heavy work to birth and so complex.

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Speaker 2: So some of your previous books.

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Speaker 1: Like Thriving in the Week of Trauma, a Multicultural Guide,

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Speaker 1: you publish that in two thousand and eight, Surviving Sexual

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Speaker 1: Violence A Guide to Recovery and Empowerment, publish that in

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven. Tweets for the Soul when Life Falls Apart,

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Speaker 1: that beautiful book came out in twenty fifteen, and now

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Speaker 1: you have your latest book, Healing your relationships with yourself

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Speaker 1: and those you love Matters of the Heart. What led

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Speaker 1: you to this next pillar in your life's.

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Speaker 2: Work, Yeah, thank you for that. Recognizing how our relationships

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Speaker 2: can nourish us or destroy us. Relationships, family, friendship, romantic,

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Speaker 2: they shape our lives. So when they are healthy relationships,

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Speaker 2: they're what we call protective factors. They can protect us

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Speaker 2: from the depths of depression, from anxiety, from addiction, dealing

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Speaker 2: with big life transitions. You know, if you're moving but

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Speaker 2: you have your friends, or you're going through a divorce

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Speaker 2: but you have good friends, that's a different experience. And

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Speaker 2: on the other side, unhealthy relationships, heartbreak, abandonment, those things

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Speaker 2: can devastate multiple areas of our lives, and they're often

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Speaker 2: not talked about in that way. So if you're successful,

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Speaker 2: then people just assume that, like everything is going to

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Speaker 2: be a success and don't really talk about how our

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Speaker 2: partnership can either elevate and nourish our lives or really

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Speaker 2: can take away everything.

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Speaker 1: Everything. Yeah, everything, m h.

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Speaker 2: It's true on every level. And so I dedicated the

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Speaker 2: book to my mom, who transitioned last year as a

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Speaker 2: result of breast cancer, and she loved deeply and fiercely.

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Speaker 2: And one of the moments that stood out to me

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Speaker 2: is I had a friend who had like a very

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Speaker 2: rough upbringing who got to meet my parents and she said, Tama,

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Speaker 2: I wonder who I would be if I had your parents,

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Speaker 2: And it really hit me right, it makes a big difference, huge.

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Speaker 2: So I know the ways in which heard love set

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Speaker 2: me up for success, and I also know the impact

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Speaker 2: that lack of love, lack of nourishing can have as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know, forgive me universe. I

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Speaker 1: don't know who to attribute this to, but you know

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Speaker 1: that's saying of like, it's not always what happens to you.

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Speaker 1: It's like sometimes what didn't happen to you, and like

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Speaker 1: experiences like that, And I think like, especially within the

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Speaker 1: kind of generation that is like between thirty and.

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Speaker 2: Fifty right now.

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Speaker 1: That was a really specific moment in time in the

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Speaker 1: childhoods of those ages that I think, you know, hopefully

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Speaker 1: and a lot of social scientists are kind of coming

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Speaker 1: with more comprehensive studies of the effects. But you know,

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00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: being latchkey kids, being the generation that raise themselves more

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Speaker 1: than any other generation. It's like, I think that that

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Speaker 1: is even if you had big T trauma or not,

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Speaker 1: or just life's friction, that is a layer of grief.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people.

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Speaker 1: In these age demos are really going through like you know,

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Speaker 1: who not that this moment isn't perfect and divinely designed,

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Speaker 1: but who could you have been if you didn't have

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Speaker 1: so much responsibility or didn't have to do so many

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Speaker 1: things by yourself, or you know, didn't have your parents

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Speaker 1: as the first generation with like adults with AOL or

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Speaker 1: the ones to be distracted and really not you know,

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Speaker 1: plopping you in front of the TV or the chat rooms.

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Speaker 1: And it's very real, like there are so many things

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Speaker 1: that were missed in your development, you know that was

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Speaker 1: part of your story, and so much extra stress and

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Speaker 1: trauma that lives inside it for your body right now

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Speaker 1: because of it, because of the fast food of the time,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's every generation definitely has their stuff in

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Speaker 1: so many ways. But that piece I think is really

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Speaker 1: coming up for people now more than ever. What didn't

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Speaker 1: I get right?

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Speaker 2: Eve Ensler and an interview about the Vagina Monologues, says,

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Speaker 2: all of the energy women's been healing, Like if we

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Speaker 2: didn't have to heal from the abusive relationships, from the molestation,

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Speaker 2: what could we be creating, writing, building, launching right with

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Speaker 2: that same energy? Which is why in therapy I often

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Speaker 2: say it's not just about decreasing symptoms of distress, it

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Speaker 2: is about now, like what are you going to create

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Speaker 2: and be? Right? So it's not just post trauma, it

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Speaker 2: is now like my growth and my thriving, and like,

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Speaker 2: now I get to be myself right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And just a moment of congratulations to everybody

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Speaker 1: listening that is alive and has survived and is here

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Speaker 1: listening to this episode right now and all of the

436
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: limitless potential of who you are and who you can be.

437
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: It is so important for us to pause and appreciate

438
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: ourselves because often we're so busy in push mode and

439
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: striving mode that we don't get to say, even if

440
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: I am not fully where I want to be, let

441
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: me acknowledge I'm not where I was, right, And so

442
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: to train my eyes to see my own growth.

443
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: Oh, to train my eyes to see my own growth? Right? Oh?

444
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: Yes, like, oh, bear witness to yourself. Yes, in all

445
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: the processes. Yes, to say like a year ago, I

446
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: wouldn't have made this choice. I wouldn't have even noticed that,

447
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: or I wouldn't have even known that I could have

448
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: permission to be that way, or to say that, yes,

449
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: it's wonderful, and all the feels when you're saying that,

450
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: I'm just.

451
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: Like, oh, yes, Lord, you know in this book the

452
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: one of the subjects that you tackle that I think

453
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: is just so incredibly relevant to so many people, And

454
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: so many people cannot necessarily find the trail back to

455
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: what brought this behavior out, but issues of control, specifically

456
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: emotional unavailability. It feels like we are Maybe it's just

457
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: because we have language for it now, but my God,

458
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: does this seem like its own epidemic emotional unavailability and

459
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: how unreciprocated love impacts our well being?

460
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: Yes?

461
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: Why do so many of us struggle with those particular

462
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: patterns that seems to be so so so pervasive, controlling unavailability,

463
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: inability to be truly intimate and connect and kind of

464
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: finding oneself in dynamics of unreciprocated love or feeling of

465
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: all different kinds.

466
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: Why is that?

467
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: Why is that so prevalent now? And how do people

468
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: approach it?

469
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think there has been a real devaluing a relationship.

470
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: So there is this focus on attaining and being driven

471
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: and accumulating and being booked and busy, and you know, yes, right,

472
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: so when I am so focused in a targeted way,

473
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: I can neglect my own relationships and so then I'm

474
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: not available for that. Because another piece of it is

475
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: being raised or mentored by people who were disappointed and hurt. Yeah,

476
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: then they advise you, you know, don't get caught up,

477
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: don't believe them, don't do that, don't do that, And

478
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: so then we fear it not to mention our own

479
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: stories of heartbreak and disappointment. That can cause us to

480
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: out of fear. And I want to say it's understandable

481
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: and important that we take pause after heartbreak, Right, you

482
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: don't want to just jump into something else, But some

483
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: people get stuck in the pause so it's been years

484
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: later and they're still like, oh no, thanks, none for me.

485
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: I don't want it. I'm not interested. And so then

486
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: that heart never got to heal.

487
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

488
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the part about wanting people who don't

489
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: want us and holding on to that. You know this

490
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: phrase I like that people uses around bread crumbing, right, yeah.

491
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: So they give you just like a little bit, oh like, oh,

492
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: you think they're gone, and then they text you like

493
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: three weeks later or you know, and more, good morning sunshine.

494
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: It's a lord. And so that we can hold on

495
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: out of hope. And then also we often think about

496
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: people as being insecure, but the opposite can happen. When

497
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: you're confident and successful, you can convince yourself I'm gonna

498
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: win them over right, So it's not just that you

499
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: feel like you're the worst. You're just like if I

500
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: call them this, if I do this, if I dress

501
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: this way, if I am funny enough, if I you know,

502
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: then they're gonna see that I'm worth choosing. And so

503
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: to really get to that place of grounding that we

504
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: don't think about relationships as we think about a job promotion. Okay,

505
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: hold on.

506
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: Wow, can we explore that a little bit because I

507
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 1: think that that is It's just I don't think everybody

508
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: understands how much they perform yes, and how much they

509
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: are innately wired to quote unquote win someone over, and

510
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: how that gives them the kind of endurance, the emotional

511
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: you know, fortitude to keep pushing through mistreatment or nonchalance.

512
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: And then once the people are quote unquote one, then

513
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 2: they often lose interest, right, because we can get become

514
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: enamored with the pursuit, with the chase. Yeah, so we

515
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: also have to look at what is my idea about

516
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: myself that when people want me, I find that undesirable.

517
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, hold on, get your note.

518
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: Bunk, And like you know, when they're not interested, I'm like,

519
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, right, I need them. And then when

520
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: they're in your direction, it's like, oh they're born.

521
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: So tell the people, yes, why are they doing that?

522
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: It is own emotional unavailability. So that will create a

523
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: pattern where I am constantly interested in people who are

524
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: not reciprocating because they're not available, because the truth is

525
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: I'm not because if someone was actually to show up

526
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 2: for me, that could be intense, that could be overwhelming,

527
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: that could be very vulnerable. So instead I'll keep waiting

528
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: for this one to leave their wife, or I'll keep

529
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: waiting for this one to let go of their six

530
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: other people and focus on me. It's safe. It's a fantasy.

531
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: And so fantasy can take up years of our lives

532
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: instead of creating real relationship.

533
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: That is so important to say and be heard. Fantasy

534
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: can take up your entire life. Yes, perform, you can

535
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: leave this earth having the entire time been playing a performance. Yes,

536
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: never having been an actualized version of who you are

537
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: for anybody.

538
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: Yes, what a tragedy.

539
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: That's not what we're here.

540
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: Right, And to go back to telling ourselves the truth? Right,

541
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: So then the truth becomes I don't actually want anybody,

542
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna keep saying I want this person who's

543
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: not choosing me. Right, So it's like, yeah, tell yourself

544
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 2: the truth. What's really going on here? What are you doing? Yeah?

545
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: Right?

546
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: Or the truth may be I don't believe anyone would

547
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: ever treat me well because I've never experienced it. So

548
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: for some people it's a faith walk. Can I believe

549
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: that I could be adored when I have never been?

550
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah?

551
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: And the answer is yes you can, Yes, Yes.

552
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: You can, Yes, And that is so deep. It's just

553
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: it's so interesting. You know. It's like even for those listening,

554
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: it's like we're in conversation, right, and someone listening is

555
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: like they're in the midst of their day. But like

556
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: some of the things that have just been identified.

557
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: They're the root of the root, right.

558
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: It is the core thing, the core, the depth of

559
00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: a thing that is keeping you from everything, you know,

560
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: And it's like I just yeah, like we have to

561
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: really hold that with the sacredness it deserves, because like

562
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: that is what you are alive to approach. That is

563
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: what the work is. And you know, I think for

564
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people when they're trying to understand what

565
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: their work is, it's just I found for myself it

566
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: was so helpful to switch the trauma and the disappointments

567
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: to a lens of this is my spiritual curriculum in

568
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: this lifetime. This is exactly what I meant to be

569
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: thinking about. So instead of not thinking about it, I

570
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: must let myself think about it and approach it and

571
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: look at it because these were the set of circumstances

572
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: I was meant to be in motion with while I'm here.

573
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 2: And I think it's so important for us to recognize

574
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: that denial and minimizing and avoidance don't work. So our

575
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: wounds show up even when we say I'm fine. So

576
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: we say like, oh, I don't think about things like that.

577
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: I don't talk about things like that. But it affects

578
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: the way I date, It affects the way that I parent,

579
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: It affects the way I deal with authority, figures on

580
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: the job because it is unhealed. And so it's not

581
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: just like an invitation to say, oh, let's just look

582
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: at trauma for trauma's sake. Trauma is looking at you, right,

583
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: It is writing your story. And so I choose to

584
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: reclaim the pen that there were some things written on

585
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: the pages of my life that I did not choose, Yes,

586
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: and I'm not able to erase them. They happened, and

587
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: I have the pen. Now, so what do I want

588
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: to write with the rest of my story? God?

589
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: So it's just so powerful and true and beautiful, and

590
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: it's you know, and I think, yeah, you know, so

591
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: many people avoid it, right because you think that once

592
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: you admit it or say it or look at it,

593
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 1: you will be ravaged by it and you will live

594
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: in it. But it's like, no, I just want it

595
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: to be noticed. I just wanted to be seen a

596
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: few good times so I could be released.

597
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: Right, we're running and you can't outrun it because it's

598
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: on you, It's in you. So it is. The more

599
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: I run from it, the bigger it gets. And when

600
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: I start to look at it and speak it, I

601
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: shrink it by recognizing I am bigger than what was

602
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: done to me.

603
00:42:47,400 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: I am wow, thank you deeply well. One of the

604
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: greatest determinants of our overall wellness is truly the quality

605
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: of our relationships. From a psychological and spiritual perspective, What

606
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: are the core ingredients for a nourishing relationship? Friendship, romantic

607
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: in relationship, But what are the core elements of one

608
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: that is healthy and is nourishing.

609
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so one is loving care. Right. If I love you,

610
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do certain things. Right. If I

611
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: love you and I care about you, I'm going to

612
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: be intentional. If I love you and care about you,

613
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: it's not a burden. You don't have to keep asking

614
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: for certain things because it's out of love. Right. So

615
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: sometimes we have to tell ourselves the truth of life.

616
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: Do you even care about that person? Right? Because sometimes

617
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: we are with people because we are into their potential,

618
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: which is not love. It's like, oh, I want to

619
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: make you. I'm gonna make you god my dream person

620
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 2: out of you. And it's like, you don't care about

621
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: that person. Set them free and let them find someone

622
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: who loves them as they are. Right, So yeah, let's

623
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 2: on a core level that love and care in their

624
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: present condition. So yes, we all want to grow and evolve.

625
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: But if I don't care about you now, then I

626
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: need to release you. So that's one. Another one is you.

627
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: We hear it from everybody, which is communication. A lot

628
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: of us are conflict avoidant, so we don't speak up.

629
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: One we wish people would read our minds. I mean right, yeah,

630
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: I understand, and then you know, based on our past,

631
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: we might feel like if I share an issue, they

632
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 2: might get mad or they might leave. So now I'm

633
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: just holding it in. But the resentment is growing and

634
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: they're continuing the behavior, not knowing that you really care,

635
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: not knowing that that's an issue. So we have to

636
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: lean into the hard conversations and allow people to see

637
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 2: us with all that comes with us, and we also

638
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: have to be willing to hear them and to know

639
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: we're not clones. We won't think the same on everything,

640
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: our emotional response won't be the same one. So learning

641
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 2: each other's language is an important part of having a

642
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: healthy connection. And then we want relationships that are reciprocal

643
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: and mutual, not one sided. Whether we're talking about friendship

644
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: or romance. It shouldn't be one person doing everything. Yeah,

645
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: we need to give and receipt.

646
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: What is what does reciprocal look like? Because that is

647
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: a question that comes up a lot from people because

648
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: I think often people think reciprocity is the exact same

649
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: thing in return.

650
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: Right it may. This is an important one because our

651
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: personalities and our strengths are different.

652
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:35,479
Speaker 1: Right.

653
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 2: So the funny that comes to my mind is with

654
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: my parents. Before my mom was dating my dad, she

655
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: was dating this guy who was a poet, so, you know,

656
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: laying it on all the words, all the words ever

657
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: from God's mouth. Tell then what she said? She started

658
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: dating my dad and literally, he'll sign a card love John.

659
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 2: Why that that's all you're gonna get? So is it

660
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: gonna now if she could write a whole, big, long poem,

661
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: but is she gonna get a poem back? No, it's

662
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 2: not like his thing. So we have to recognize you know,

663
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: the ways that people show their love.

664
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: Right.

665
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: I was working with a couple and I raised this

666
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: point because the wife is into self help books and

667
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: wanted the husband to like read all these books about

668
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: like successful marriage, and he didn't want to read them.

669
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: But he's never been a reader. It's like when they

670
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: were dating, he wasn't a reader. When they were engaged,

671
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't a reader. Like. So to make the number

672
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: of books the measure of his love for you is

673
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: not fair. Right, doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's just

674
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 2: that's not his thing.

675
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: So that's so good, And it may not be how

676
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: his brain works, Like he may not even be able

677
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: to retain in if he reads it, depending.

678
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: On yeah, yeah, yeah, so he's willing to go to

679
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 2: couple's therapy. Awesome, let's let's do let's do that. Yeah,

680
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: let's do that.

681
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, I think one of the last things I'd

682
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: love to ask you before I invite you to do

683
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: some soul work. Loneliness is a big theme for people,

684
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: and we're seeing a lot of studies come out about it.

685
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: People are talking about it more than ever. People choosing

686
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: to be single. Is that some of the highest numbers.

687
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: It's ever been or at least have been recorded. You know,

688
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of one can be lonely for

689
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: so many reasons. First, let me say that I don't

690
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: want to be overly general with our understanding of loneliness

691
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: because it's so layered and there's so many there's so

692
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: many barriers, there's so many reasons for it. But you know,

693
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I think not everyone notices

694
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: is that some of their loneliness and self isolation is

695
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: self imposed because they don't necessarily have the tools for

696
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: deeper intimacy.

697
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: Though they crave it.

698
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: How can people begin to move beyond surface level interactions

699
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: and start to cultivate those deeper relationships, that deeper community,

700
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: that even deeper communication that they have been longing for

701
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: or wanting to experience your first time.

702
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important that we look at the stories we've

703
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 2: been telling ourselves, because the story I've told myself about

704
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: love or about relationships or about attractiveness can then shape

705
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the

706
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: possibility of connection. Right. So, people will say like, oh,

707
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: I really want a partner, and they go out there

708
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 2: at a restaurant or wherever they are and someone approaches

709
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: them and they respond in warrior mode like what do

710
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: you want to know my name for?

711
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: Like, wait, I'm looking at why are you sharing at me?

712
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: So now I'm blacking my blessing right because I showed

713
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: up for combat and I want connection. So we or

714
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: you know people who are on these apps, and I

715
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: know there can be a lot of mess on there,

716
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: but some people are like eliminating everybody. Right, It's like no,

717
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: then to this, to that, It's like you want to

718
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: at least have a conversation less at least see if

719
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: it's possible.

720
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: Well that may or may not be me.

721
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in that exploring the story and then that

722
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: whole thing of like if I want something different, I

723
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: may have to do something different, right, Yeah, And it

724
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: can help to get feedback from people if you have

725
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 2: close friends, you know, to say, you know, are there

726
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,479
Speaker 2: any things you've noticed about me in this space? Right?

727
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: It may be you know, oh, you hook on the

728
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 2: people too quickly and that either scares them away or

729
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: then you're all hooked up and it wasn't fulfilling anyway,

730
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: so you like you're back into a bad situation. But

731
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: our our people, if we've let them in can see us,

732
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: and sometimes they can help us to see ourselves.

733
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what a gift to to be able to

734
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: ask that of people. And I do you know acknowledge

735
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: that everybody has yet those safe and kind of mutually

736
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: witnessing friendships where you can ask questions like that in

737
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: a safe way. But if you do, and if it's

738
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: just been you know, kind of a defensiveness or something

739
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: that comes in because you don't want to quote unquote

740
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: hear something bad about yourself, think about that and really

741
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: lean into that, because I think sometimes our friends have

742
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: a lot of deep truths for us. Our community has

743
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: a lot of deep truths for us that they may

744
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: have always wanted to say to us as an aid,

745
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: as a help, but don't necessarily know that there's space

746
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: to don't want to upset you or jeopardize you know,

747
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: the integrity of the relationship remaining. But those can be

748
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: some of our most valuable, valuable mirrors in our lives.

749
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: Right, It's so true. And so I would say also

750
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: for us, like being teachable, being flexible, being willing to shift,

751
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: you know that sometimes my way of talking to people

752
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 2: or my way of being may not align with my

753
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 2: goal right. So now I'm standing all my wings, I'm

754
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: blacking myself. So let me explore another way.

755
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: This has been such a beautiful episode. At the end

756
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: of every episode, I like to invite the guys to

757
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: share some soul work with the audience. So any kind

758
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: of practice, thought, inquiry, exercise to further integrate everything that

759
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: they just experienced on this.

760
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: Show, Oh wonderful. So I'll invite us to some compassion holds,

761
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: and the first ones will put our legs uncrossed and

762
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: uncross our arms. And I want to start off by saying,

763
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: I believe in body sovereignty. So with body sovereignty, nothing

764
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: that I invite you to do are you forced to do?

765
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: So you as I invite you, you take pause and

766
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: say do I feel like doing that? Do I want

767
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 2: to do that? Or do I just want to watch

768
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: them do that? You get to choose, and that's a

769
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 2: part of your healing. You're yes and you're no. So

770
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: if it aligns with you, one hand on your heart,

771
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: one hand on your belly, inhaling in through the nose,

772
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: exhaling out through the mouth, and the hand on the

773
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: belly goes up to the forehead inhale and exhale. The

774
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 2: hand on the heart goes to the back of the head.

775
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: Inhaling through the nose, exhale out through the mouth, and

776
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 2: hug yourself inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through

777
00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: the mouth. If it aligns with you, you just begin and

778
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: rocking back and forth. You are your comforter. You give

779
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: yourself grace and give yourself love. And if it aligns

780
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 2: with you, we say the words, I am worthy of love.

781
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: I am worthy of love.

782
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: I come home to myself.

783
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: I come home to myself.

784
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 2: And you can stop rocking and return to the heart

785
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 2: and the belly. I am worthy of love.

786
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: I am worthy of love.

787
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: I come home to myself.

788
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: I come home to myself.

789
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: Welcome home, Welcome home, beautiful. Thank you so much, Oh,

790
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 2: thank you for having me.

791
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: Wow, what an honor, what a pleasure, what a privilege.

792
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your work. Everyone. This beautiful

793
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: book is everywhere now. And don't forget to check out

794
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: the og classics that she has been putting out. Matters

795
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: of the Heart by doctor Tama Bryant. We'll be back

796
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: next episode, and in the meantime, really sit with this,

797
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: sit with some of this conversation see where it applies,

798
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: notice where it doesn't, and share this episode with a

799
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: friend that you think could really be moved and changed

800
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 1: by it in a way that is helpful and supportive

801
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: to them. As always, thank you for listening now mistake.

802
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational

803
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement

804
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: for personalized medical or mental health guidance. It does not

805
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable

806
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for

807
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect

808
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,

809
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.

810
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,

811
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: don't forget, Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this

812
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of

813
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,

814
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath You

815
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more

816
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you

817
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.

818
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: Yes,