1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg Ihad podcast, and 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News. 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: It's Thursday, February nine. One of the more interesting phrases 4 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: used by folks in crypto is this one code is law. 5 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: Think of it this way. Under the idea that code 6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: is law, what governs whether something, say, a transaction is 7 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: valid or not isn't the whims or caprices of any 8 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: individual regulator or government. Instead, what determines whether something is acceptable, permissible, 9 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: or appropriate is what's written into the software that enabled 10 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: that transaction in the first place. It's another way of 11 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: thinking about the so called immutability of the blockchain. If 12 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: the blockchain says it, then that's what's going to be true. 13 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: That's what's going to remain. Sounds logical, right, But what 14 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: happens when the code doesn't do what you're expecting it 15 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: to do, or when someone or some party exploits loopholes 16 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: in the logic of that software for their own personal 17 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: financial gain. That's what we're going to talk about today. 18 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: The interesting precedent set by a crypto trader named Abraham Eisenberg, 19 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: who exploited the idea of code is law for millions 20 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: of dollars and then was arrested and charged with fraud. 21 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: Joining me now to break down what the latest charges 22 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: mean is Bloomberg reported, Muya Chen and Bloomberg Lower correspondent 23 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: Matthew Boltman. Matthew, Muya, Welcome back to the show, Muya, 24 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: While come to the show, Matthew, So Mouel, I want 25 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: to start with you. We have talked about this idea 26 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: of code is law. We've actually had folks on the 27 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: show previously talking about this Mango Markets hack. But what's 28 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: been happening recently? Why does this continue to be a 29 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: big deal as it were for players in crypto. I 30 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: think let's just step back on what happened, as we 31 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: all now that Einsberg was sort of involved in several 32 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: I think criminal complaints right now, both SEC as well 33 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: as I think the prosecutors in York has sort of 34 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: suit him for several cases. And maybe we want to 35 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: step back on what happened exactly and why it's important. 36 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: The big part is that Einsberg sort of was suited 37 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: for using to Mango Markets accounts that he controlled the 38 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: manipulates the prices of Mango perpetro swaps, which are features 39 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: that allowed traders to keep their positions open. And what 40 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: is the man Gold market. It is a lending project 41 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: that's based on Salona blockchain that allows people to post 42 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: certain tokens in um. This example, we can post Mango tokens, 43 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: which is a native token of Mango markets, to borrow 44 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: other type of tokens for example stable coins and things 45 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: like that. Now, what are some of the particular crypto 46 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: issues that are at played here, Like how has this 47 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: been playing with folks into centralized financer defied Because we're 48 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: going to get into some of the more legal arguments 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: very shortly for me um covering Mango markets hack. The 50 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: biggest interesting part is that it's very big. Despite what 51 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: he climbed himself, everything did in the past was like 52 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: he was just following the code that was designed to supposedly. 53 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: How it works that he has received very little support 54 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: from DeFi community in general and Defamy as we know 55 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: is they sort of have this belief in code is 56 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: law essos, which is a belief that author in crypto 57 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: is the pieces of a coat that underlies all the projects. However, 58 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: as the court is designed and people were just following it, Matthew, 59 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: How do regulators feel about this idea that someone can 60 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: allegedly exploit a protocol a marketplace for you know, tens 61 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars and then say well, this is 62 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: just what your software allowed me to do. The law 63 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: enforcement and the regulators would disagree. I think that is 64 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: maybe one of the big takeaways from kind of the 65 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: the legal action that has has come of this is 66 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: that if they view an action as as being fraudulent 67 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: or market manipulation, they are going to aggressively pursue that behavior. 68 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: What about this action is being viewed as potentially fraudulent 69 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: or a manipulation of markets? And who are the players involved? 70 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: So there are a few at this point. The Department 71 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: of Justice has brought a case alleging wire fraud, commodities fraud, 72 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: and commodities manipulation. The Commodity Future and Trading Commission has 73 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: brought its own case, and the Securities and Exchange Commission 74 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: late last month brought a case alleging securities fraud against 75 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: Mr Eisenberg. That's a lot of people and a lot 76 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: of allegations. Why are there so many players here? I think? 77 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: I mean from the d j's perspective, those are criminal charges, 78 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: and then you have the CFTC and the SEC are 79 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: these regulatory agencies. Those are civil complaints where they could 80 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: in theory, recoup some of the allegedly ill gotten gains 81 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: from this alleged scheme. Their theory of the cases is 82 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: all pretty similar that the idea is he artificially propped 83 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: up the price of the mango token, increase, seen the 84 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: price of these mango perpetual futures, and ultimately walked away 85 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: with somewhere in the neighbor of fifty million dollars. When 86 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: I was setting done, and it sounds to me like 87 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: there's this interesting I don't want to use the word 88 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: tension necessarily, but there's this interesting distinction between like the 89 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: crypto perspective on this as Mouao is describing it, which is, 90 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, these contracts for this particular protocol were set 91 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: up in a way that allowed what Eisenberg to be done, 92 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: and the regulators are coming in and they're like, sure, 93 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: but the spirit of the actual laws that play hair 94 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: would scream that this looks to be something closer to 95 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: fraud and market manipulation. How have regulators in your experience 96 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: had to deal with sort of translating some of these 97 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: crypto native concepts into policy, legislation, law enforcement. I think 98 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: from the from the DJ's perspective, they describe this as 99 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: the defied finance plan forms. This is a new frontier 100 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: of old school financial crimes. I think from their perspective, 101 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: if you did the types of actions that he is 102 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: accused of doing in a traditional market, that is going 103 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: to be market manipulation, and um wouldn't be a whole 104 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: lot of debate. I don't think about from the DJ's perspective, 105 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: um and that they pursue charges. I think for them 106 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: it's it's simply a matter of the same type of 107 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: conduct in a new platform. From their perspective, it's it's 108 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: quite similar now we are. While we may have said 109 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning that you know, like this idea of 110 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: code is law is very widespread, a lot of people 111 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: believe in it, the actual reaction to what happened to 112 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: Mango Markets was far from unanimous, right. You definitely had 113 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: people who were like, Nope, this this is not acceptable 114 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: and we can't keep allowing things and defied to go 115 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: this way. In addition to of course Eisenberg himself who 116 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: at the time was like, well, you know, this is 117 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: this is what I was able to do. So how 118 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: do you, as someone reporting on this attempt to reconcile 119 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: these differing perspectives as that was very interesting Previously when 120 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: there's any sort of charges from regulators or prosecutors on 121 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: DeFi related behaviors, we often see sort of resistance from 122 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: the community and you know, as again cold is law 123 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: and they believe that this is out of out of 124 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: the regulation, out of regulators, sort of like field. UM. 125 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: I think today, given what happened in the past year 126 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: in Town two, which not exactly they're the most beautiful 127 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: year for crypto in general, we saw at all kinds 128 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: of frauds happening, and I think cryptal in general is 129 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: quite humbled from all the experience in two, and they 130 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: realize that it is almost sort of like naive to 131 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: think today that crypto is outside the law, and people 132 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: are actually hoping there's more clear locations from regulators on 133 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: what it should be, um, what's legal and what's illegal 134 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: and things like that. And in I think in this 135 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: case specifically, given Eisenberg's own personality and how he sort 136 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: of like bragged about his all his like you know, 137 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: highly profitable trade trades in the past. People are very 138 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: happy about that, you know, like the prosecutors are going 139 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: after him and showing kind of example that they also 140 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: make a distinguistinguished between what he was doing versus you know, 141 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: quote is law, because in I think a lot of 142 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: defail advocates his behavior there isn't like a reflection of 143 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: code's law in crypto and he's what he's trying to 144 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: do is code is above law, which is different. Well, 145 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: I've asked you this question before, but is there really 146 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: a middle ground, like is it possible to have defy 147 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: with trap FI characteristics or Matthew, is it possible to 148 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: have different types of banking with some of the you know, 149 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: perceived innovations of crypto or we're always going to be 150 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: talking about two totally different languages and the people who 151 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: just like look at each other like they're both aliens 152 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: on either side of this from covering defy self. The 153 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: trend I'm seeing today is that I think DeFi is 154 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: getting more and more sort of similar to traditional finance. 155 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: I think a good point is that a lot of 156 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: people are talking about so called permission to defy, which 157 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: is the DeFi projects. That's white listing certain players into 158 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: participating projects while after they were I think they went 159 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: through such as like a m L and uh other 160 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: different rules before they can't do that. So I think 161 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: at this point, first of all, we are in a 162 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: bear market, that we are far away from the old 163 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: like Defy summer, when there was a lot of interests, 164 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: a lot of retail interests, a lot of money in 165 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: the space, and right now they have little interests in 166 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: space in general, and people are looking for real innovations 167 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: also called like real yields, real high real returns in 168 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: the space other than just a bunch of like random 169 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,479 Speaker 1: tokens and posting sort of like fun or like unrealistic 170 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: like high numbers out there. But in order to bring 171 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: real I think returns or yields into Defy, you have 172 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: to have sort of regulations, regulatory framework around it for 173 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: I think institutions to participate. I think defied people, as 174 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, they're they're really humbled by the experience 175 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,359 Speaker 1: in two and they're sort of more like proactively engaging 176 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: I think regulators, not just in the US, I think 177 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: around the globe, because you know, after crypto is like 178 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: global even there's might be a litteral slowdown in the 179 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: US in terms like having a regulatory framework around how 180 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: to to D five, But I think in other parts 181 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: of the world too, I saw defied people. They're talking 182 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: to a lot of regulators around word about how they 183 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: can sort of encouraging an environment that can allow more banks, 184 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: allowing more investment banks as well to get into this space. 185 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Up next, more from Bloomberg Report Muya Shan and Bloomberg 186 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: Log correspondent Matthew Boltman will be right back. How are 187 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: you seeing regulators approach this question of whether traditional finance 188 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: should take on any defied characteristics. I think one of 189 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: the interesting things from this complaint in particular is the 190 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: SEC's view that the kind of the governance of the 191 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: mango markets actually was not decentralized, that the power was 192 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,359 Speaker 1: concentrated in the hands of a limited number of individuals. 193 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: And it's not the first complaint that we've seen along 194 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: those lines. I'm thinking of another CFTC case. But at 195 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: least some of these projects that these regulators are pursuing, 196 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,479 Speaker 1: in their view, they're kind of decorated in this new technology, 197 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,359 Speaker 1: but a lot of it is from their their perspective 198 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: traditional fraud, and it clothes itself is decentralized, but actually 199 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: the power is kind of concentrated. So I'm hearing two 200 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: very interesting things from you that I want to make 201 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: sure to kind of like real. The reason emphasize the 202 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: first is you're saying that from the SECS perspective, from 203 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: the u S regulatory perspective, this thing that presents itself 204 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: as you know, we are defied, We are decentralized. From 205 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: the SEC's perspective, They're like, mmmm, you look very much 206 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: like these other kinds of entities that we continue to 207 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: be centralized. The ways that you make decisions are concentrated 208 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: in the hands of a few people, and the services 209 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: or the products that you're offering also look like things 210 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: that we would traditionally have remit over. Is that correct? 211 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: As the first part this Mango respect to the Mango markets, absolutely, 212 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: with respect of this particular project. Yes. One of the 213 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: things that they had talked about the Mango token, which 214 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: is kind of the central token that's involved in this 215 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: alleged scheme. There were governance rights attached to that token, 216 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: which in theory would give any countless people a say 217 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: and how the project is run as you see in 218 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: its complaint, called those governance rights illusory and said really 219 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: that the power is concentrated in the creators of the 220 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: mango market. Got it, and moal, if I could just 221 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: put the second piece to you, that's very different from 222 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: how the folks and Defy are positioning themselves. Right, So like, 223 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: even with this idea of permissioned or you know, things 224 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: that are subject to a higher bar, their argument is 225 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: still we couldn't be more different from the banks, We 226 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: couldn't be more different from these traditional securities and lending providers. Yeah, 227 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: I think I would agree with that based on everyone 228 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: I talked to in the past few weeks. It's just 229 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: like I think an easy example is if you're creating 230 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: a doubt, which is a decentralized autonomous organization, which I 231 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: think is like device way of a traditional corporate entasy. 232 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: It sounds like you know it is, this is like 233 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: nothing like a corporate and you know it is. You 234 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: shouldn't be regulated. But as long as you have a 235 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: group of people who are making money in this case, 236 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: that you do need to set up a bank account 237 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: and where exactly you're gonna stay set a bank account 238 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: if it's onshore in the US, so offshore somewhere else. 239 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: Wherever it is, you know, it has the entity, it 240 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: has some sort of like regulations like being involved. And 241 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: what I'm seeing today is that if you're defied project 242 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: that do not have a lawyer, that you're definitely constantly 243 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: looking for a lawyer or any sort of legal service 244 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: around how you should managing your your protocol or how 245 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: you should organize your doubt today, which I think will 246 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: be a trend for twenty three. Yeah, if there's one 247 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: thing we can take away from a lot of these 248 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: episodes is that no matter what, the lawyers will make money. 249 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: So on that note, thank you Muyal, and thank you 250 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: very much, Matthew. It's been a pleasure having you both 251 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: on the show. Thank you. That was Bloomberg Reports Muya 252 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: Chen and Bloomberg Glow correspondent Matthew Boltman. You can find 253 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: more of their reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal and on 254 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com and Bloomberg Law. For more, be sure 255 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: to check out or twice weekly newsletter Bloomberg Crypto. This 256 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I 257 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit 258 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 259 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions 260 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: for the show to Crypto at bloomberg dot net. The 261 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our 262 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Faruke 263 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: and Sharon Burriro. Our associate producers are Ty Butler and 264 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: is This on desta wonder At is our engineer. Original 265 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: music by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Schmaal. We'll be 266 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: back tomorrow.