1 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Miss Powell, Miss Powell. This booming voice came all the 2 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: way across the department store, and my mom and I 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: turned to see this tall, slender man with a full 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: beard and mustache running toward her. I could tell she 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: did not readily recognize him, and he exclaimed as he 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: got closer to her, it's me. 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: It's me, Scottie. And she went, oh, my word, Scotty. 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: And as he got to her, he picked her up 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: and just spun her around in this bear hug, and 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, what in the world. 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: And then he said, do you remember me right the 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: seventh grade? And she said, of course, Scotty, Scottie Rollins, 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: I remember you. And he just hugged her again, and 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: he said, you were my favorite teacher of all times. 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: You have no idea how much you did for me. Well, 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: apparently he was kind of a trouble kid. 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: Had not a great home life, and as my mom 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: would say, was kind of on the wrong track. But 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: she knew how smart he was. And he said to her, 20 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm a doctor now at Emory Hospital. Well, my mom 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: was beaming with pride because she had always seen it 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: in him. She knew it, and she winked at me 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: later and said I was right about another one today, y'all. 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: I am so excited to have doctor Michael Boden with 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: US America's position. He's a board certified forensic pathologist. He's 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: worked numerous high profile deaths. He was the host of 27 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: HBO's Autopsy. He was the chief medical Examiner for New 28 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: York City for a little bit, and he was chairman 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: of the House Select Committee on Assassinations. He looked at 30 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the assassination of 31 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: doctor Martin Luther King. He's worked cases that you know, 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: such as OJ Simpson, John Belushi, the murder of George Floyd, 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: Aaron Hernandez, and others. The people in the media sometimes 34 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: refer to him as a death correspondent. But just like 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: my mother knew Scottie was destined for good things, I 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 1: believe doctor Biden's mama. 37 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: Knew that he was. 38 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: To Please help me. Welcome doctor Michael Biden. 39 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: Thank you, Cheryl. Great to be to see you again 40 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: and be with you. Well. 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: It's great to see you again. Last time we were together 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: with your lovely bride. I just did not have enough 43 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: time with y'all. 44 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: That's all. 45 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: There was to it, But I want people to know 46 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: something because I think this is so important. As a 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: mama and as a former college professor. You got into 48 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: a little bit of trouble as a kid yourself, didn't you. 49 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you do good research. I was a reform 50 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 3: in school as a kid, and I don't remember all 51 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: the details, but my parents had a great deal of 52 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: trouble dealing with me when I was growing up in 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: the Bronx. At six years of age, I was kicked 54 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 3: out of kindergarten in the Bronx public school system. I 55 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: guess were being disruptive. 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: But your mom always said you should be a doctor. 57 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: She saw it. 58 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: She knew you're absolutely right. And there were two things 59 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 3: about it. Actually, she was the guiding force that I 60 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: should be a doctor. That's what she wanted. And in 61 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: those days when I grew up in the Bronx, doctors 62 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 3: made house calls and there was a pediatrician doctor named 63 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: Aaron and her last name Aaron, who came every time 64 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: I was sick, not sick, orphan, but and I was 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: very impressed with him. He was amazing, coming and looking 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 3: in my throat and taking out my councils on the 67 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: kitchen table in those days is they used to do that. 68 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 3: But it was my mother, who, like your mother, was 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 3: the guy. They knew things in advance. 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So since you wanted to be a doctor and 71 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: you were, you know, enamored with doctor Aaron, what made 72 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: you go into pathology and not work with live patience. 73 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 3: That's a very perceptive question, because my mother thought that 74 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 3: doctors made people healthy and that I would be an 75 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 3: internal medicine doctor. When I was admitted to NYU School 76 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: of Medicine in Manhattan. I went City College, New York, 77 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: admitted to ny Medical School, and I wanted to be 78 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: an internist. It so happened that at that time NYU 79 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 3: was still was associated with Bellevue Hospital right next door, 80 00:04:54,480 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 3: and the morgue for the medical with NYU Medical School, 81 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: for Bellevue Hospital and for the Medical Examiner's Office of 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: New York City was in the basement Bellevue Hospital, and 83 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: there was a morgue in a special pathology building at 84 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 3: Bellevue on of Bellevue Hospital grounds. As a medical students, 85 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 3: we were doing autops do dis sections of bodies that 86 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: have been soaked in from aldehyde for a year or so. 87 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 3: There was shriveled up bodies, and they didn't really look 88 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: like bodies. But in the Bellevue Morgue it was the 89 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 3: people looked like they were alive yesterday, and it was 90 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: amazed me of the wonders of the inside body, but 91 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 3: was also interesting to bring me up to date a 92 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 3: little bit. The first time I went down to see 93 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 3: an autopsy, there was a line of doctors in white 94 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 3: coats regular outside the medical the autopsy room, and I said, 95 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 3: I'm a medical student, and I was told I can 96 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: go see an autopsy. And when the doctors say, yeah, 97 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 3: you should, you should. There's a good place to see it, 98 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: but not on this body because it looks like it's 99 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 3: small pox. This is in nineteen fifty five. Nineteen fifty five, 100 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 3: I'm a first few medical student people are the doctors 101 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: are outside of the medical of the autopsy room because 102 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: they won't go inside because small pox is contagious. I 103 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: went in. I said, look, I'm told I could go in, 104 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: and I've got everybody had the smallpox vaccinations in those days, 105 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: little punctures on the outside of the upper arm. And 106 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: they went in and there was doctor Milton Helperrin, who 107 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: was the chief medical examiner, and nobody was there to 108 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 3: help them with the autopsy because everybody was afraid of 109 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 3: that might be small pox. So I helped him by 110 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: moving around the lights that he would using to take 111 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: photographs it looked like somebody with all these heemorrhagic parks 112 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 3: on it on their body, and helped him. It turned 113 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: out that wasn't smallpox, it was hemorrhagic chicken pox. But 114 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: because I was there and I helped him, he sort 115 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 3: of immediately took me under his wing and I could 116 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: go down anytime and see an autopsy. They taught me 117 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: how to do autopsies, and that's what really got me 118 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: interested in pathology rather than in internal medicine. 119 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I often tell people the morg offers 120 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: mystery that even a hospital didn't offer, and it gives 121 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: you a chance, in your case, especially to be somewhat 122 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: fearless in your research because you walked. 123 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:47,119 Speaker 2: Into a room. 124 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been anything, but you did 125 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: it anyway for the greater good, the greater knowledge, And 126 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: I think there's no other place than a morgue to 127 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: get some of those answers, especially for your investigation. 128 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: New building of the New York City Medical Examiner's office 129 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: a few years after I graduated, has over its admission 130 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 3: in Latin in the Latin phrase let talking cease. This 131 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: is the place where death delights to help the minute 132 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 3: the living translated loosely from Latin, this is a place 133 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: where death delights to help the living, because we learn 134 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 3: all kinds of new things from the dead body, both 135 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 3: about disease and how people how death can be avoided. 136 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people don't understand that 137 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: if it weren't for medical examiners, we wouldn't have airbags. 138 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. The recognition there was a high incidence 139 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: of death, and this goes back to the nineteen fifties. 140 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 3: People who died in auto accidents. A large percentage of 141 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 3: them died because of facial and head injuries do to 142 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: sudden stopping and UH, the head going against the dashboard, 143 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 3: and we would have people who would would have would 144 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 3: have in the foreheads, UH, the fractures and imprints of 145 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: the radio knobs that were on the dashboard at that time, 146 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: for example, and the very fact that holding the person 147 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: stationary by belt by UH could could avoid these deaths. 148 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: Prevent these deaths came from the autopsy and all. While 149 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: we were doing that kind of research, there was a 150 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 3: great deal of research search going on in the autopsy 151 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: room between Bellevue Hospital, n YU Medical School, and medical 152 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 3: examiners about the effects of cigarettes inhaling cigarettes. And it 153 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: was at that time also that the realization and understanding 154 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: was made smoking cigarettes wound up what people getting lung 155 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 3: cancer twenty thirty years later and led to all kinds 156 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: of prohibitions and the statements on the cigarette tacks and 157 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: all that. 158 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: Especially when you think in the early years, doctors promoted 159 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: cigarettes smoking to relax you. 160 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 3: Oh, yes, yes, And I still have a poster here 161 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: of Ronald Reagan when he was an actor. Doctors and 162 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 3: actors who were promoting lucky Strike. 163 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about your process when you take a 164 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: second look as a medical examiner. Now they've already had 165 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: an autopsy, but you're coming and doing your own work. 166 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: What is your process? How do you start that? 167 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: The process is that somebody, usually a family member, is 168 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 3: concerned about the cause of death, concerned that the people 169 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 3: doing the first or autopsy, the medical examiner, the pathologist, 170 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 3: or the medical examiner is biased or is not knowledgeable 171 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: enough to give the proper diagnosis. That often happens with 172 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 3: the natural deaths. When the natural deaths of persons at 173 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 3: the hospital for weeks and individual dies, the first autopsy 174 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: doesn't show the cause of death. It's the cause of 175 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 3: death is still unknown, so the family member wants to 176 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 3: get a second autopsy like more experienced people they think 177 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: who might be able to find the cause of death. 178 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 3: And also they will suspect that the pathologists in the hospital. 179 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 3: It may be the autopsy may show the cause of death, 180 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: but it's not favorable for the hospital. So they're saying 181 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: they can't find the cause of death. So one way 182 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: we get contact. The family member next to the kid 183 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 3: wants to know what the cause of death is that 184 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: they don't think the hospital did it right. Now, when 185 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 3: is a forensic autopsy, which is most of the time 186 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: we do second autopsies. There are many families and many 187 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: defense lawyers especially who feel that medical examiner is a 188 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 3: forensic pathologists are bias toward police and aren't going to 189 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 3: give it a straight answer if the favor if it 190 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: doesn't favor the prosecutor of police theory of a case. 191 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 3: If it's a homicide, for example. 192 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: Now, how heavily do you rely personally on the police 193 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: and detectives and I would say the original police report 194 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: and things like that. 195 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: Cheryl, this is what you're so great. You have hit 196 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 3: at the heart of problems that are happening now, the divisiveness, 197 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: the fact that today I see in the news that 198 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: California has passed the law preventing the use of excited 199 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 3: delirium on death certificates, rightfully so when people died during 200 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: encounters with police. There are only about six hundred forensic 201 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 3: pathologists in the United States full time forensic pathologists, out 202 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: of about almost a million doctors. It's a very small 203 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: specialty US forensic pathologists. We're the only ones can do 204 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: autopsies on unnatural deaths. Ninety three percent of US die 205 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 3: of natural diseases, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, cancer, that's the 206 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: expertise of the hospital pathologists natural disease. The expertise of 207 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: the forensic pathologist goes further in training. Accident, suicide, homicide, 208 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: and drug abuses fit in there, and mistakes are made 209 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 3: because oftentimes forensic pathologists doesn't do the isn't available. Some 210 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 3: states don't have a forensic pathologist in the host state 211 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 3: and the autopsy is done by a hospital pathologists who's 212 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: not trained in unnatural debt, but the forensic pathologists. When 213 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: I came in initially in the New York City Medical 214 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: Examiner's Office finishing my internship residency Chief Residency in Pathology, 215 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 3: I then chose my having worked in the with the 216 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 3: medical examiners, to become a forensic pathologist. They want a 217 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 3: forensic pathology. The chief medical Examiner, the disc Attorney's office, 218 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: the chief of Police met with me and two other 219 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 3: people starting in the New York City office, and the 220 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: first thing they tell us, we're glad you're here. We 221 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: want you to know that we're a team where we're 222 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 3: like a three legged stool. The police, the district attorney, 223 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: and the medical examiners are working together to determine what 224 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 3: happened to the dead body, and we're working as a 225 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 3: team to convict the bad guy who's done it. We're 226 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: the good the good guys on this team, and we're 227 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: have to make sure that justice is done and that 228 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 3: we're all working together. And we start out working closely 229 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 3: with the police and district attorneys. So we work up 230 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: and we train very closely with police. I have found 231 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 3: over the years that this is dangerous. Most of the 232 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: time the police are right, sometimes they aren't right in 233 00:15:54,960 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: the air in their investigations, so that those who fortunately 234 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: haven't had to deal with it. Excited delirium is a 235 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 3: diagnosis developed in the nineteen eighties that when somebody dies 236 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: during a police encounter, a physical police encounter, during the 237 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 3: restraint while they're trying to put handcuffs on, a cause 238 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 3: of death isn't found that autopsy. There's no fractures and 239 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 3: no neck injuries. The decedent produced too much adrenaline. He 240 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: was in a fight, he was going to struggle to 241 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 3: produce too much adrenaline, and he died, and the cause 242 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: of death is excited delirium was named as the cause 243 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: of death. It turns out that's it's a motique diagnosis 244 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: only applied by medical examiners because we're the ones who 245 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: determined the cause of death. And he said to a 246 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 3: person who died during physically while being restrained by police 247 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 3: and turn out to be largely black male decedents, it's 248 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 3: a biased kind of racist considered a racist diagnosis by 249 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 3: the and now just recently the American Medical Association and 250 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 3: others and still being used. And if something is called 251 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 3: excited delirium, that's considered a natural death and that's the 252 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 3: end of the investigation. The police don't have to investigate 253 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 3: it further. The district attorney doesn't have to investigate it further, 254 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 3: because the district attorney doesn't want to really investigate the 255 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 3: local police deaths if that could be avoided. And everybody's 256 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: happy about it, except the family members. And that's what 257 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: eventually I show led to the whole Floyd upset because 258 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 3: the initial medical examiner indicated that the police restraint had 259 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 3: nothing to do with the cause of death. The police 260 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: and the EMMY backed it up fully, and the family 261 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 3: and the family in the community made a fuss about 262 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: it and led to second autopsy. I was involved in 263 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 3: the second autopsy. But that's all changed largely because of 264 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 3: the iPhone. Twenty seven is when the iPhone with the 265 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 3: photos was a photograph possibilities was introduced, and that changed 266 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: things because what was captured on video often turned on 267 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: out to be what the police reported because the death 268 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 3: was and it's led to a lot of the division 269 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 3: among medical examiners and among them in the communities. 270 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any question that the I phone 271 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: in the video capability has assisted so greatly. And you know, 272 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: to me, you can't watch that video with George Floyd 273 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: and not see a very slow murder. 274 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: Before the iPhone, whatever the police said was just adopted 275 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 3: as being the truth, not the family. The iPhone has 276 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: changed that. 277 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: So I want to head to nineteen seventy seven with you, 278 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: and I want to quote you. You said at one time, 279 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: even when an autopsy is done, the speculation doesn't stop. 280 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: I thought that was such a great quote, especially if 281 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: you're talking about President John Kennedy and doctor Martin Luther King. 282 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about your involvement with 283 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: studying those assassinations, because for me, President Kennedy and doctor King, 284 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: there's so many similarities. I mean, they were both shot 285 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: with a long gun by a lone gunman in the 286 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: middle of the day from a structor. They both left 287 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: weapons behind, both weapons had a partial palm print. They 288 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: were both shot from a distance. They were both surrounded 289 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: by people they trusted. They were both at the height 290 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: of their career, they were world leaders, they were both 291 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: public murders, and they were both caught on film A 292 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: little bit so to me, It's almost like if you're 293 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: studying both of these assassinations, some of it mirrors each other. 294 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: So I just want to hear from you the expert. 295 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 3: Now the differences though it happened. When Kennedy was assassinated, 296 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 3: he goes into the Texas hospital, is pronounced dead. They're 297 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 3: The surgeon who attended to him was then interviewed says 298 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: there was a bullet hole in the neck entrance bullet 299 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 3: hole in the neck, and that was the reason that 300 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 3: he died. The body is then illegally taken to Washington, 301 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 3: d C. Because the autopsy should have been done legally 302 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: in Texas. When somebody dies, the jurisdiction of the medical 303 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 3: examiner corner investigation depends on where a person dies. Wherever 304 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 3: the person dies, that jurisdiction does the autopsy examination. In 305 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 3: this situation, for various reasons, the body was taken up 306 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: to d C improperly. The Secret Service said that well, 307 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 3: they were concerned that maybe whoever shot Kennedy would also 308 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 3: shot shoot his wife or something, and they wanted to 309 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: get him out of the end. There was a confrontation 310 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 3: in the hospital more between the Secret Service and the 311 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 3: Medical Examiner's office before it was taken the body was 312 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 3: taken out. And I mentioned that because when the autopsy 313 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: was done indeed c by a naval excellent naval Navy physician, 314 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 3: hospital physician, he looked at the body, did not call 315 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 3: the doctors in Parkment Hospital in Texas to see what 316 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: did you do to the body and treatment, which medical 317 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 3: examiners always do because if you do, if you provide 318 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: medications or draw blood, it leaves needle marks and we 319 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: can't tell do the autopsy who did the needle marks, 320 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: drug addict or the doctor. They looked the same. In 321 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 3: this instance, the one doctor the sergeant looked at the neck, 322 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: saw there was a perforation of bullet hole of entrance, 323 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 3: and then did an incision through a tracheostomy, decision to 324 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 3: put down a breathing device. We medically. The doctor in 325 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 3: d C in Part who then brought to do the autopsy, 326 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 3: didn't appreciate that there was a hole in the neck. 327 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 3: He just thought it was the doctor did it. He didn't. 328 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 3: You could see it if you were closely, but it 329 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 3: was cut through. But that wasn't what he was used 330 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 3: to look at, look at cancer cells or so he 331 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 3: turns the body over to examine the back, which is proper, 332 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: and the autopsy always have to look at the back 333 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: and sees a bullet hole in the back. Uh, the 334 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 3: doctors in Park in Texas didn't do that because as 335 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: soon as they did their attempts to revive the president, 336 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 3: he didn't get revived and he died right right there 337 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: without the inspecting the back. He then announces in Washington, 338 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 3: d C. That there's a bullet hole in the back. 339 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 3: He doesn't appreciate that's the exit room. You see. The 340 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 3: bullgoes in the front, comes out the back, and he 341 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 3: announced it that there's an entrance wound in the back. 342 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 3: He doesn't know anything about an entrance wound in the front. 343 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 3: But the newspapers immediately immediately say, hey, he was shot 344 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 3: once in the front and once in the back. Two shooters. Therefore, 345 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: day one, Day two, there was a concern that this 346 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 3: was raised, that this was two shooters. Now. In addition 347 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 3: to that, when I grew up, there was a program 348 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 3: that we all use kids loved called The Lone Ranger. 349 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 3: The Lone Ranger was the one good guy who could 350 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: beat up lots of bad guys. He was my hero 351 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 3: a lot of heroes. It was on radio every evening. 352 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: The lone ranger. Part of that is and part of 353 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: that kids and grant if you have a good guy 354 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 3: like Kennedy being killed, that one bad guy can't kill 355 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 3: the president, and we have a concept then it's changing 356 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 3: even slowly nowadays that you need more than one bad 357 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: guy to kill a good guy. 358 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: And it's interesting you say that about people not wanting 359 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: to accept one person can do great harm. You had 360 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: the same issue with OJ Simpson. People said there had 361 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: to be more than one person. One person couldn't kill 362 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: two people like that. Of course one person could tell 363 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: you kill two people like that. 364 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 3: That's right, And I think with OJ Simpson there's still 365 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 3: a division. 366 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: Well, going back to doctor King, there was some black 367 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: powder around his neck and a lot of people thought, well, 368 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: he had to be shot up close then because that's gunpowder. 369 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: But that's not necessarily the case at all. We know that. 370 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, with doctor King, the initial concerns there was that 371 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 3: when the shooting occurred. The moment the shooting occurred, there 372 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 3: were witnesses on the terrorists on the motel terriffs with 373 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: King who pointed to different spots where it came from. 374 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 3: So that from that point there were newspaper articles about 375 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: more than one shooter. 376 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: Given your career, and you have looked at death more 377 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: than most people would ever be able to look at death, 378 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: and you've examined it, and you've researched it, and you've 379 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: given your opinion. How has your job changed your life 380 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: or the way you live your life? 381 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 3: The most common misapprehension I think that people have, and 382 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 3: this you can see this not only from just thoughts, 383 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 3: but also from the old movies, that the Morgue is 384 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 3: a desperately terrible place to be working in, and frightening 385 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: and haunted and the ugly place to work in, and 386 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: it must make people depressed. I shouted out, as we 387 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 3: alluded to with my mother's idea that I would be 388 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 3: a doctor for living people, and I started an internal 389 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 3: medicine before switching to pathology. And the most troubling thing 390 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: to me, upsetting thing to me treating patients with those 391 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 3: people who are dying, that we could not help people 392 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: dying of cancer and people dying of brain damage. That 393 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 3: we weren't too familiar with diagnosing Alzheimer's disease then, but 394 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 3: we knew that people were getting older and confused, and 395 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 3: nothing that we could do about it. That was very 396 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: upsetting and troublesome going to the morgue and dealing with 397 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 3: a dead person right off. There's no pain involved. That 398 00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 3: person on the autopsy table has no pain that we 399 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 3: have to deal with. And what our job is to 400 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 3: see how that body, how the autopsy will help the 401 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 3: family number one and society number two when they say 402 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: society society because like with covid or with smallpox decades ago, 403 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 3: if we were to to diagnose such causes of dead 404 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: that we know are very contagious, we're part of the 405 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: public health system to be able to try and limit 406 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 3: the number of people are going to get infected. But 407 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 3: you don't want to know to limit people until you 408 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 3: know they died from something that's contagious. That's public health. 409 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: When somebody dies of suicide, we try to find out 410 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: where there are any ways preventing it. This has been 411 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: a big issue in prisons. For example, I became got 412 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 3: involved with checking all prison deaths and jail deaths in 413 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: New York State after the Attica uprising because one of 414 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: the reasons for Attica in nineteen seventy one, where forty 415 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 3: three people died, including ten guards, was caused because the 416 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 3: inmates felt that when prisoners died the death of bad medicine, 417 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: of being beaten up by the gods guards, of suicide, 418 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 3: there was all covered. Everybody was called death from heart 419 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: disease and was covered up. And so it required that 420 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: Governor Rockefell passed cybal law that created a commission to 421 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 3: look into every death that occurs in New York State 422 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 3: and in prison jail at lock up and immediately when 423 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: we're able to get to do autopsies to get data 424 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: on all of the deaths were never available before we 425 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: could find out that, hey, there are ways to prevent 426 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 3: the deaths. Example, we found out that the most common 427 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 3: cause of death in those days was suicide, suicide by hanging. 428 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 3: The hanging occurred in the bathroom when there were no 429 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: gods present and then hang up to the shower curtain rods. 430 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: So once we found that out, we passed, we advised 431 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 3: and passed the legislation that all of the shower rods 432 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: should be collapsible so that if they go in there's 433 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 3: nobody watching them and they want to hang up, they 434 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 3: they can't cominsuicide. And that's true. We found out that 435 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: there was another looking at all the deaths, and I 436 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 3: say all the deaths in the prisons when people died 437 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 3: during tear gassing because they were uncontrollable, they weren't begging themselves. 438 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 3: A large number of deaths occurred because they were being 439 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: they couldn't breathe, they were being choked to death during 440 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: the tear gassing. And so we passed legislatives, passed rules 441 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 3: and regulations that tear gassing has to be watched by 442 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: a supervisor and it can't be done by the guards 443 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 3: who were going in there with tear gas because they 444 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 3: had a bad episode with the individual that cut out 445 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 3: all tear gassing deaths that were supervised. Same thing I 446 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 3: think happens now with deaths during during police encounters. That 447 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 3: in order to cut down on the death the medical 448 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 3: examiners can help by getting a database together. Remember all 449 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 3: those deaths during police restraint, great majority of them are 450 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 3: reported to the medical examiners, and so if we were 451 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 3: able to get some kind of a national database on 452 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: how people died during police encounters, we'd be able to 453 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: develop some kind of strategies to diminish the deaths. Well. 454 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: As happened in New York in the prison situation, very 455 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 3: few deaths now with more with more prisoners in New 456 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: York State prisons than were present time of Attica, when 457 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: they were a third as many inmates. 458 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: President These stats that you know dis off the top 459 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: of your head because you live. That's why when you 460 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: look at a case like Jeffrey Epstein, you know that 461 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: there's something really unusual with the breaks in that neck 462 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: that if you've never seen it before, why would it 463 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: just be so easily accepted. 464 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 3: Well, that Epstein's death is very interesting because he died 465 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 3: in a federal jail, federal prison jail really in the Manhattan. 466 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 3: The New York state law didn't cover that jail. If 467 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 3: he had died in a New York state jail, the 468 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 3: commission I was on would automatically investigate the death. There 469 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 3: all kinds of people to do investigations. Epstein died in 470 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 3: a federal prison. Therefore, the FBI investigates the death, and 471 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 3: the Justice Department investigates the death. They do not have 472 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: much experience investigating suicidal deaths. Number one, the New York 473 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 3: City Police do it. For example, And when the first 474 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 3: autopsy was done, though it showed that I was present 475 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 3: at the autopsy that there were three fractures and the 476 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 3: atoms apple and the hyoid bone which are just above it, 477 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 3: which is typical for homicidal strangulation. It's atypical for hanging 478 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 3: because in hanging the rope, as with Epstein, it would 479 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 3: have gone up under the jawbone. It's people hanging. The 480 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 3: literature slips up under the mandible the jawbone, and that's 481 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 3: where you see the mark. With Epstein, he had the 482 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 3: mark in the middle of the neck over the Adams 483 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 3: apple and there were three fractures, which extremely rare, which 484 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 3: I've never seen and I haven't seen reported in suicidal hanging. 485 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 3: And it turned out later which we just received as 486 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 3: the result of the Justice Department investigation, that he was 487 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 3: found seated. It wasn't even hanging up. With hanging up, 488 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 3: there's more pressure on the neck than being seated because 489 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 3: there's a less weight, and so it is even less 490 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 3: likely to get any fracture seated than hanging. And the 491 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 3: problem was, though, that the Justice Department and the FBI 492 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 3: investigation didn't focus on differences of opinion or so they 493 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 3: focus on security, and according to their investigation, nobody had 494 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 3: Nobody else had investigat access to Epstein. Therefore he must 495 00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 3: have done it himself, which you know, which is powerful 496 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 3: evidence if it's true. But the fact is that the 497 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 3: videos of his cell and of his cell tier weren't 498 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: working that day and that night, and the two correct 499 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 3: the three or four correction officers were scheduled to watch it, 500 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 3: to watch the eight cells where they were special housing 501 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 3: didn't do it. They didn't do any And see there's 502 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 3: another situation where that probably happens. A lot I gather 503 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 3: from the investigation, where the guards that are supposed to 504 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 3: make fifteen minutes or half hour rounds don't make the rounds. 505 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 3: But because this was a prominent person, it came to 506 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 3: light and therefore there's established a certain amount of different 507 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 3: is an opinion. In my opinion about Epstein, his fractures 508 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 3: are much more typical for homicidal strangulation and not ligature 509 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 3: hanging suicide. But maybe there is some kind of There 510 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 3: always can be exceptions. But the general feeling has been, 511 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: the general media acceptance has been that it was suicide 512 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 3: because of the investigation by the FBI and Justice Department 513 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 3: into the security of his inability to are the people's 514 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 3: inability to get into do it to him. 515 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: Well, I often tell people, if you want to know 516 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: what's going on in your town, look in the jail. 517 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: And if you want to know the problems, as the 518 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: medical examiner, because they're going to know about the drugs 519 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: before anybody else's disease. Jesus homicides, car crashes. So again, doctor, 520 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: I appreciate so much you being with us and sharing 521 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: so many things with us, not just your career and 522 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: your opinions, but also you know your upbringing, because I 523 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: think your story of getting kicked out of preschool and 524 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: going on to be the top of your class at 525 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: NYU Medical School is just remarkable and it just goes 526 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: to show again, don't count nobody out just because they 527 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: may be misbehaving at six or fourteen or twenty, give 528 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: them a chance to correct that, you know, path and 529 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: you might just be surprised and in your case become 530 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: a world renowned forensic pathologist. 531 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 3: Well, I must say I very much appreciate you your 532 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 3: mom's inside. It's the Scotty that Scotti also had problems. Entirely, 533 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 3: I became a doctor amazing. 534 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: Thank you, Cheryl, absolutely thank you again, and please give 535 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: Linda my regards and I hope to see y'all and 536 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: talk again very soon. 537 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 2: Y'all. 538 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven like I always do, 539 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: with a quote. Wherever the art of medicine is loved, 540 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: there is also a love of humanity Hippocrates. I'm Cheryl 541 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: McCollum and this is Zone seven.