WEBVTT - Big Tech Is Now a Big Player in US Energy Markets

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<v Speaker 1>It takes a lot of electricity to run the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>Where's that electricity coming from? Today we're talking about how

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<v Speaker 1>big tech is starting to throw its weight around in

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<v Speaker 1>the energy industry and what that means for you, me

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<v Speaker 1>and for your utilities. Hello and welcome back once again

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<v Speaker 1>to Parts per Billion, the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm your host, David Schultz. So here's something I learned

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<v Speaker 1>working on today's podcast. Big companies get their electricity in

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<v Speaker 1>a totally different way than you or I do. That

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense. Of course, buying something wholesale is always going

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<v Speaker 1>to be different than buying a retail and sometimes if

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<v Speaker 1>you're a big enough wholesale buyer, you can have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of influence over where your power comes from and

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<v Speaker 1>how it's generated. None of this is new, But what

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<v Speaker 1>is new is that some of the biggest wholesale power

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<v Speaker 1>buyers are now tech companies, thank Google, Microsoft, Apple. They're

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<v Speaker 1>not only influencing where their electricity comes from, they're also

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<v Speaker 1>influencing the folks hearing Washington, d C. Who regulate the

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<v Speaker 1>energy industry. That's the topic of the latest story from

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Law. Reporter Daniel Moore and I brought them on

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<v Speaker 1>today to talk about what it means that big tech

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<v Speaker 1>is becoming a big player here. But first I asked

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<v Speaker 1>them to explain to me how it works when you

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<v Speaker 1>buy your power wholesale. Yeah, it's a little bit more

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<v Speaker 1>complicated than maybe just flipping on the light switch and

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<v Speaker 1>signing up for utility power like you or I will

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<v Speaker 1>do for our homes. UM big companies like data centers, schools, hospitals,

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<v Speaker 1>big office buildings, they consume a lot of energy. They

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<v Speaker 1>want the lowest rates possible, and they want reliable energy too.

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<v Speaker 1>If they lose power for an hour, even a few minutes,

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<v Speaker 1>it can be devastating. And so what a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>those companies do is reach out and try to secure

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<v Speaker 1>the supply of energy from the from the source, from

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<v Speaker 1>the generating plant. And so sometimes they're working with UM

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<v Speaker 1>utilities to do that through teariff programs. Sometimes they're going

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<v Speaker 1>directly to a developer to do that. And so it's

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more complicated than just you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>residential customer. You say, tear of programs. Is that like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when I think of tariffs, I think of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, taxes on imports and exports and stuff. What's

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<v Speaker 1>the terrors and energy tariff. A tariff um would be

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<v Speaker 1>a state approved rate essentially, so you know we pay

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<v Speaker 1>tariffs center electric bills every month, but this would be

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a special tariff for a specific customer. I see.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a it's a power industry term of art.

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<v Speaker 1>It is. Yes. So one of the things that your

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<v Speaker 1>stories was about were these big tech companies and how

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<v Speaker 1>you know they are using more and more power and

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<v Speaker 1>trying to source it responsibly. I guess I was just

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely astonished by some of the figures in your story.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give me a sense of just how much

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<v Speaker 1>power like Google and Microsoft and and Meta are using. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>these companies are running huge data centers that basically run

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet in a lot of ways. If you go

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<v Speaker 1>on Amazon to buy something, I mean, that's all coming

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<v Speaker 1>from a source of energy. And so I pulled out

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<v Speaker 1>Google statistic which is eighteen point three tarra lott hours

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<v Speaker 1>of electricity in and that's more than double from four

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<v Speaker 1>years prior. So the growth is tremendous. And what that

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<v Speaker 1>represents is about one point seven million average US households

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<v Speaker 1>um that amount of electricity over a year. And I think,

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<v Speaker 1>what blew my mind? Is what you just said that

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<v Speaker 1>within a four year period that more than doubled like that.

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<v Speaker 1>If you plot that on a chart, that's scary. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's the growth that's kind of astonishing. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it makes sense that these companies use a lot of energy,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's the growth over a very short period of

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<v Speaker 1>time and that kind of gets out some of the

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<v Speaker 1>challenges with the power grid that we're talking about here. Right, So,

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<v Speaker 1>these big companies and these big tech companies are sourcing

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<v Speaker 1>their power wholesale, and it sounds like the tech companies

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<v Speaker 1>in particular really want to get their power from renewable sources.

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<v Speaker 1>Why is that? Is it just because they you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I love the environment, and they're very altruistic and they

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<v Speaker 1>you know, have, um, you know, nothing but the best

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<v Speaker 1>of intentions, as you cannot being a little facetious here,

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<v Speaker 1>or are there other reasons why they are interested in

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<v Speaker 1>in getting exclusively renewable power. Yeah, there's more going on here. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of interesting because it reflects I think the

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<v Speaker 1>clean energy transition as a whole. Wind and solar are

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<v Speaker 1>both very cheap now, the costs of fallen, and so

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<v Speaker 1>companies that consume large amounts of energy. They want to

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<v Speaker 1>be seen as green companies, as environmentally sensitive, as improving

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<v Speaker 1>air quality in the communities where they're putting data centers,

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<v Speaker 1>but now they can do so profitably. It's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a you know, a happy situation for the companies where

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<v Speaker 1>you know, clean power is cheap power now, so and

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<v Speaker 1>that's happened broadly across the economy, and this is just

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<v Speaker 1>one big consuming sector right now, right, so it helps

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<v Speaker 1>their brand. It helps their brand to be seen as

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<v Speaker 1>a green company. But also, as you point out in

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<v Speaker 1>your story, a lot of these companies made environmental pledges

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<v Speaker 1>and emissions pledges that they are now kind of struggling

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<v Speaker 1>to keep. And you know, it sounds like by sourcing

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<v Speaker 1>their power directly from renewable sources, this is a way

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<v Speaker 1>to help them keep their promises. Yeah, yeah, definitely, And

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<v Speaker 1>I think they're looking for new ways to get that

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<v Speaker 1>power and that gets that some of the grid policies

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<v Speaker 1>as well that they're pushing. And you know, over in

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<v Speaker 1>recent years they have increasingly been trying to press for

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<v Speaker 1>more renewable energy as they have had these at zero

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<v Speaker 1>goals because you know, there's only a finite amount of

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<v Speaker 1>wind and solar, right now, and they're trying to get

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<v Speaker 1>involved in the business of building more of that by

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<v Speaker 1>demanding more of it, right, and not just building or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, building more of it, but encouraging more to

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<v Speaker 1>get built and also encouraging policies to change to allow

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<v Speaker 1>more renewable energy to get built. And that was another

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<v Speaker 1>thing you reported that these a lot of these tech

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<v Speaker 1>companies are hiring energy lobbyists since specifically clean energy lobbyists.

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<v Speaker 1>Who are they hiring and what exactly are they lobbying on. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>they've been hiring people who have spent years in the

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<v Speaker 1>energy industry, specifically in the electricity sector, who are super

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with agencies like the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, for

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<v Speaker 1>which has been embarking on, you know, multiple rulemakings over

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<v Speaker 1>the last year involving transmission lines and generator interconnection and

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<v Speaker 1>things that used to be things that are very wonky

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<v Speaker 1>and used to be just the venues of utility experts.

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<v Speaker 1>And so they're hiring people from trade associations, from the hill,

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<v Speaker 1>people who have for experience, and they've been stuffing up

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I've heard over the last year or two.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this has been a pretty recent development that

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<v Speaker 1>they've been trying to you know, bring on expertise in

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<v Speaker 1>order to effectively lobby in d C. Right. I mean, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you you said in your story that they were hiring

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<v Speaker 1>you know, people with pretty impressive resumes or at least

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<v Speaker 1>very connect and resumes. You know, ex Hill staffers, former

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<v Speaker 1>administration officials. You know, these are people who know how

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<v Speaker 1>the game is played here in d C. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>they've been you know, a regular presence at panels, um

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<v Speaker 1>and and different conferences. And I mean I got the

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<v Speaker 1>idea to report this story about a year ago, and

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<v Speaker 1>over the last year I've seen you know, companies like

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<v Speaker 1>Google sponsor these events. I've seen representatives from Microsoft, Meta,

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<v Speaker 1>Amazon sit on panels and talk about you know, policies

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<v Speaker 1>that used to be UM again pretty pretty exclusive to

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<v Speaker 1>utility nerds and in former for lawyers and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people who are really embedded in the world of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, generating and transporting and delivering power. So as

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<v Speaker 1>an aside here just f one journalist to another, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a really cool way to come up with the story.

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<v Speaker 1>Idea is that you know, we all go to these

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<v Speaker 1>conferences where you know, people are speaking and these industry

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<v Speaker 1>conference is but you were noticing that different people were

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<v Speaker 1>showing up to the conferences than you would expect, and

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<v Speaker 1>that in itself is the story. Yeah, and you know

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<v Speaker 1>there are there have been trade associations too that have

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<v Speaker 1>been established and founded by you know, these big tech companies. Specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>the Clean Energy Buyers Association UM is a good example

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<v Speaker 1>where they represent as as the name suggests, companies, big

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<v Speaker 1>corporations that want to buy clean energy. But they're based

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<v Speaker 1>in d C. They're doing a lot of lobbying around

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<v Speaker 1>grid policy and transmission lines and all these things and

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<v Speaker 1>so UM. But the you know, the the impetus for

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<v Speaker 1>finding for founding that group was to influence grid policy

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<v Speaker 1>and DC so that companies can buy more you know,

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<v Speaker 1>winded solar. Okay, so let's now take a step back

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<v Speaker 1>and sort of look at this from the big picture.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's say you're an environmental activist, You're someone who's really

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<v Speaker 1>concerned about climate change or um or air emissions. On

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<v Speaker 1>the face, this would seem like a positive development that

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<v Speaker 1>you now have very very wealthy UM stakeholders who are

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<v Speaker 1>advocating for clean energy. However, it's just it feels odd

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<v Speaker 1>to me for you know, grassroots environmental activists to be

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<v Speaker 1>cheering corporate lobbying like it sounds very strange. Is this

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<v Speaker 1>something that if you're an activist you're happy about or

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<v Speaker 1>are you a little ambivalent? Yeah, I think by and

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<v Speaker 1>large i've heard people are are cheering these companies on UM.

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<v Speaker 1>It is a little bit strange, I think in some ways,

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<v Speaker 1>just given they may not usually support big corporate law

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<v Speaker 1>being in d C. But you know, I think I

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<v Speaker 1>think they care about the outcomes, and I think it

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<v Speaker 1>if companies like Google and Amazon can press for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>connecting more renewal energy UM, they're actually signing up for,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, these agreements that by all the power from

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<v Speaker 1>a wind farmer, solar farm, and so if you're an

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<v Speaker 1>environmental group and you care about the results and building

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<v Speaker 1>these renewal energy plants UM, I've heard by and large

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<v Speaker 1>they're they're supportive. I think the concern might be more

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<v Speaker 1>from like a consumer advocate standpoint, where you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>what is this doing to the system, What is this

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<v Speaker 1>doing to rates? What may this do to reliability issues?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's kind of the concerns I hear from

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<v Speaker 1>utilities that are going before state commissions and trying to

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<v Speaker 1>justify their rates and trying to you know, they're the

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<v Speaker 1>ones that are held accountable if the lights go off,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I think there may be concerns on that

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<v Speaker 1>side of it, um, but it seems like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>environmentalists by and large are aligned with the big tech companies.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great point, which is that you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>if these companies are lobbying to get something done in Washington,

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<v Speaker 1>that means there's someone else on the other side that

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<v Speaker 1>is lobbying to not do that or to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>do something different. And it sounds like the other the

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<v Speaker 1>folks on the other side of this are the utilities

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<v Speaker 1>who are, well, you know, what are they saying. What's

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<v Speaker 1>their argument as for why they, you know, are maybe

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<v Speaker 1>opposing or if not opposing, at least not going along

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<v Speaker 1>with what the tech companies want. Yeah, utilities would say,

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<v Speaker 1>we are trying to work with all largest customers. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's a tough situation because these are big customers.

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<v Speaker 1>They're going to sell a lot of electricity to these customers.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're a utility, this is revenue for you, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>this is this is a business opportunity. You want to

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<v Speaker 1>supply as much power as you possibly can. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think the problem comes in if you have a company

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<v Speaker 1>pressing for clean power, perhaps that's not the cheapest power

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<v Speaker 1>on your system. Perhaps that will create, you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>rate increase for cost t mers. Perhaps perhaps that's just

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<v Speaker 1>not doable and you know, while maintaining reliability. So maybe

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<v Speaker 1>maybe it is doable, just not now. Maybe in five years. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe maybe it's more of a transition. I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>you know, again, the broader debate over the clean energy

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<v Speaker 1>transition is how long is that window going to take?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, how long does it take to build a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of wind and solar plants if that's what we want?

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<v Speaker 1>And so utilities, you know, it's it can be somewhat

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<v Speaker 1>of a clash sometimes. I mean they certainly they want

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<v Speaker 1>to control their system too. They want to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to say, you know, we'll work with you on a tariff,

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<v Speaker 1>but don't go around us and and get a contract

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<v Speaker 1>with the wind solar farm. Uh. So there can be

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<v Speaker 1>some tension there with utilities for sure. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>customers don't have to go before the state commission and

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<v Speaker 1>justify their rates, and and they're not held accountable if

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<v Speaker 1>the lights go off, So you know, everyone's kind of

0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.800
<v Speaker 1>rolling in the same direction, but it's just you know

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.960
<v Speaker 1>how fast you're going? All right, that's like it sounds

0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 1>like a good place to end it. Um, let's leave

0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.880
<v Speaker 1>it there and uh revisit this in the near future.

0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.600
<v Speaker 1>This is a really interesting topic. That was Daniel Moore

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<v Speaker 1>talking about big tech and renewable energy. Thanks for talking. Yeah,

0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 1>thanks for having me on. And that's it for today's

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 1>episode of Parts for Billion. If you want more environmental news,

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.440
<v Speaker 1>visit our website news dot Bloomberg Law dot com. That

0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.720
<v Speaker 1>website once again his news dot Bloomberg Law dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's episode of Parts for Billion is produced by myself,

0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.800
<v Speaker 1>David Schultz. Partsber Billion was created by Jessica Combs and

0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.320
<v Speaker 1>Rachel Dagle and is edited by Zack Sterterwood and Chuck McCutcheon.

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.640
<v Speaker 1>Our executive producer is Josh Block. Thanks everyone for listening.

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<v Speaker 1>An individual's race should not be used to help him

0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 1>or harm him in his life's endeavors. A pair of

0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.920
<v Speaker 1>lawsuits has made its way to the Supreme Court, and

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:52.080
<v Speaker 1>the decision could dramatically change just who gets into which college.

0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Bloom is effectively using the Asian community as pawns every

0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.040
<v Speaker 1>lawsuit needs a villain to mask and anti black of

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.520
<v Speaker 1>anti Latino agenda. Does this demoralize me? No, it doesn't

0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.680
<v Speaker 1>demoralize me. This season on Uncommon Law will explore the

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:13.400
<v Speaker 1>arguments and the people driving this latest battle over affirmative action.

0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Can the Constitution be used to remedy society's ills? I'm

0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 1>the only person in class, must raise my hand and say, okay, well, actually,

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.160
<v Speaker 1>here's how this affects people that look like me. Does

0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the Fourteenth Amendments Equal Protection Clause prohibit all discrimination based

0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.280
<v Speaker 1>on race? You let somebody in because of their race,

0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 1>you're keeping somebody else out because of their race. There

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.760
<v Speaker 1>might have been two or three Latinos, including me, and

0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.360
<v Speaker 1>so somehow that's too much. Somehow that goes too far.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hard not to take that very personally. Coming October,

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<v Speaker 1>part one of a three part series on affirmative action.

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<v Speaker 1>What's being decided is whether black and brown people are

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<v Speaker 1>going to be excluded in significant numbers only. An uncommon

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<v Speaker 1>Law from Bloomberg Industry Group