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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I'm Matt

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking fighting and winning against insane healthcare

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Speaker 1: costs with Marshall Allen. Yeah. Today on the show, we're

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Speaker 1: talking with Marshall Allen. Marshall is a journalist who investigates

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Speaker 1: why we pay so much for healthcare here in America

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Speaker 1: while at the same time we get so little in return.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of Never Pay the First Bill and

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Speaker 1: Other Ways to Fight the health Care System and When.

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Speaker 1: He is also the founder of Allan Health Academy, which

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Speaker 1: produces a curriculum of short, on demand videos to equip

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Speaker 1: and empower employees to navigate the health care system. Marshall,

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Speaker 1: he's been investigating the healthcare industry for fifteen years, including

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Speaker 1: over a decade at Republica. But we're really excited to

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Speaker 1: dive into the different ways that we can fight and

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Speaker 1: win against insane healthcare costs. Marshall. Thank you for joining

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Speaker 1: us today on the podcast. It's an honor to be

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Speaker 1: here with you, guys. Marshall, We're so glad to have you.

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Speaker 1: The first question that we ask everybody who comes on

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Speaker 1: the show, though, Matt and I, we really like craft

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Speaker 1: beer it's something that we splurge on right now, even

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Speaker 1: while we're trying to save and invest well for the future.

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Speaker 1: What is that in your life? What's the thing that

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Speaker 1: you splurge on while you're trying to be good with

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Speaker 1: your money? Also, you know, guys, I I hate to

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Speaker 1: say this, but I'm really really quite boring in this way.

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Speaker 1: And so I even had to run this by my wife.

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Speaker 1: I was liken, what is the thing that I splurreg on?

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Speaker 1: Because there are things I splurge on, but then I

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Speaker 1: try and do it in like a really frugal way. So, like,

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Speaker 1: I am a total coffee lover. I love great coffee,

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Speaker 1: but I have found that the best way to do

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Speaker 1: that at an affordable price is to roast my beans myself.

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Speaker 1: So I yeah, So I order my beans from a

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Speaker 1: website called Sweet Maria's. It's in Oakland. They send you

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Speaker 1: the raw beans, you can roast them up. It takes

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Speaker 1: about ten minutes to do and then your beans are

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Speaker 1: totally totally fresh and stuff you would have paid like

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Speaker 1: a pound for fresh roasted coffee, I can get for

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Speaker 1: like five dollars a pound. So um, I hate to

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Speaker 1: not I mean, so it's a splurge, but it's I'm

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Speaker 1: doing in an economical way. Another one is like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love a great steak, but I'm like, man, if

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Speaker 1: I go out for a steak, And this is this

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Speaker 1: is spending so many years as a journalist, right, so

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Speaker 1: journalism does not pay well. I don't know if anyone

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Speaker 1: ever told you the pay is so bad. And I

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Speaker 1: always had a family as long as I was in journalism,

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Speaker 1: so I've got kids, and I'm like, Okay, i gotta

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Speaker 1: figure out a way to make the best steak I

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Speaker 1: can at home. So I love a good steak. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then the other one, this is totally boring. But

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Speaker 1: I'm a writer and books. I mean that's I'll buy

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Speaker 1: books just like I love books. I'm actually in the

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Speaker 1: process of moving now, and I have to contemplate getting

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Speaker 1: rid of some of my books, even though I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't read every thing that I buy. I really

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Speaker 1: love to buy books, so those would be my three.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like an existential crisis, trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: which books you should part with and which ones you

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Speaker 1: should kid. My excuse to my wife is always, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm a writer. I don't have to get rid of

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Speaker 1: any of these. It's my it's sort of my my justification.

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Speaker 1: Nice Okay, So Marshall, you shared your secret on how

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Speaker 1: you get really good coffee at an affordable price. You

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Speaker 1: roast your own beans. How do you do that with

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Speaker 1: with with a nice steak? Is there a secret? Is

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Speaker 1: there a a source that you have where you buy

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Speaker 1: the really good ribis? How do you make it work? Well?

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Speaker 1: I don't actually like raise the cows in my backyard,

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Speaker 1: that's what you mean, and slaughter them myself. I don't

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Speaker 1: go that far. But um no, it's really just a

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Speaker 1: matter of getting a good kind of meat. I just

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Speaker 1: go to the grocery store though it's nothing dramatic or

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Speaker 1: nothing secret there, and just learning how to make it properly.

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Speaker 1: You know how to sear it on both sides so

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Speaker 1: that you kind of locked the juices in, how to

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Speaker 1: cook it to the right medium, rare consistency. Um so

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Speaker 1: it's perfect every time. So it's it's just maybe learning

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Speaker 1: how to do it more than especial technique is so important.

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Speaker 1: And so last little follow up here you're talking about coffee,

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Speaker 1: what is your favorite method of brewing? Do you like

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Speaker 1: to do the chemics? Do you do pour over do

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Speaker 1: you do an aero press that I could. We could

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Speaker 1: do an hour just on this subject alone, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like every morning for me is the pursuit of

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Speaker 1: the perfect cup of coffee. But my standard go to

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Speaker 1: method is the chemics. I feel like you can get um.

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Speaker 1: You know, the French press uses too much coffee, so again,

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Speaker 1: it's just not the most economical way. The chemics is

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Speaker 1: nice for making it for me and my wife, so

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Speaker 1: I go with the chemics. That's exactly the same here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, enough about food and Marshall's splurges. Let's get

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Speaker 1: into talking about insurance and healthcare. Marshall, what led you

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Speaker 1: to spend your time and to spend your energy covering

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Speaker 1: the issue of the American healthcare system in the first place. Well,

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Speaker 1: I started covering healthcare when I went to Las Vegas

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Speaker 1: to become a reporter at the Las Vegas Sun. This

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Speaker 1: was in two thousand and six, and when they hired me,

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Speaker 1: they hired me just as a general assignment kind of

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter. And I had never covered health care before.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I thought the subject sounded totally boring, but

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Speaker 1: they asked me to cover it, and I started writing

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Speaker 1: about it. And I found really quickly that when you

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Speaker 1: write good stories about health care, you can get right

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Speaker 1: at two things people care about more than anything else,

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Speaker 1: their health and their money. Because every health care story

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Speaker 1: you're talking about people's quality of life with regard to

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Speaker 1: their physical health, but more and more we're talking about

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Speaker 1: their quality of life with regards to their financial health.

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Speaker 1: And so I found that as long as I could

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Speaker 1: lock into one or both of those subjects and the

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Speaker 1: stories I wrote, my stories would get huge tractions. So

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Speaker 1: even though like a pro publicam for the last few

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Speaker 1: years before the pandemic, I was writing about health insurance,

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Speaker 1: that sounds like the most boring topic in the world.

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Speaker 1: Like if you told people I'm gonna write stories about

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Speaker 1: health insurance, their eyes would totally glaze over. But if

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Speaker 1: you look at all those worries, I did in a

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Speaker 1: series I called the Health Insurance Hustle, which because I'm

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Speaker 1: showing how we're getting hustled by the health insurance industry

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Speaker 1: in every single story, I could say, this is why

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Speaker 1: you reader pay so much for healthcare. It's because of

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Speaker 1: these games. It's because of this type of deception that's

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Speaker 1: in the industry that your deductibles are so high you

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Speaker 1: can't afford them. Your premiums are so out of control

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Speaker 1: you can't pay for them. And this is why we

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Speaker 1: have right now one in five Americans with medical debt

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Speaker 1: in collections. I mean, this is a crisis of a situation.

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Speaker 1: And so when I found that I could really angle

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Speaker 1: the stories that way, even though I'm writing about something

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Speaker 1: that seems so boring. I mean, my stories would get

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Speaker 1: picked up, lots of page views, lots of interest. I'd

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Speaker 1: get lots more letters and emails. Not letters, I'm not

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Speaker 1: getting letters in the mail, but emails and phone calls

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Speaker 1: from readers, postcards, you know, things coming in over the

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Speaker 1: over the wire. But you know what I mean. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I got so much feedback from readers that, um, I

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Speaker 1: just continued to dig in and dig in more on

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Speaker 1: that subject. And you know, the word crisis, I think

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Speaker 1: it's overused, but I think it's actually appropriate in this

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Speaker 1: scenario when we're talking about the health care system and Marshall.

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Speaker 1: In your book, you actually talked about one of the

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Speaker 1: best experiences that you had in the health care system.

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Speaker 1: But there was like this twist, this ironic twist in

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Speaker 1: your story that that awesome experience wasn't here in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Can you kind of tell us like how

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Speaker 1: that went down? Yeah, you took away my punchline though

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Speaker 1: by by giving exactly well, so here's here's here's how

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Speaker 1: it happened. My wife, she unfortunately has gotten migraines her

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Speaker 1: whole life. And so we were traveling. We're actually in

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Speaker 1: Kenya where we used to work there. We did Christian

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Speaker 1: youth work in Kenya for three years. So we went

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Speaker 1: back and took our kids back there in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: And this was right before I got the book deal

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Speaker 1: actually to write this book. And unfortunately, my wife to

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Speaker 1: migraine and it was after hours, and so we couldn't

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Speaker 1: go to a doctor's office or urgent care clinic. So

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Speaker 1: we had to go to the Nairobi Hospital, which is

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Speaker 1: the big hospital there in in Nairobi. And you know

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Speaker 1: here in the States, if you go into a hospital

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Speaker 1: emergency room, I mean you're just bracing yourself for like

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Speaker 1: these surprise bills, these out of network bills. You know,

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Speaker 1: they don't give you a price up front, and so

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Speaker 1: they're gonna you don't know what it's going to be

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Speaker 1: when you get it in the mail, you know, And

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Speaker 1: here at the Nairobi hospital. I go in and my

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Speaker 1: wife is there and they say, okay, well that'll be

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't remember how much it was thirty

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Speaker 1: dollars or something for the doctor to see you, and

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Speaker 1: they've just printed up an invoice for him for me

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Speaker 1: and had me pay it right on the spot. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, what is going on here? How is

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Speaker 1: it that they're able to give me a price up front,

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Speaker 1: whereas in the entire United States you can't get a

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Speaker 1: price up front. Then we go back to the doctor

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, okay, here's where they're gonna overtreat us.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're gonna say they need to do a

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Speaker 1: scan of her brain to make sure there's not an aneurysm.

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Speaker 1: The guy was like, hey, it looks like she just

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Speaker 1: needs some pain medication, and my wife and I like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. So he's like, you can get it

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Speaker 1: on the pharmacy. From the pharmacy on your way out,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, here's where they're going to get us.

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Speaker 1: Because drug costs are marked up, you know, you don't

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Speaker 1: know how much it's gonna be. There's all these secret

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Speaker 1: spread pricing and rebating and American drug prices. Well here

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Speaker 1: they just were like, pay us thirty dollars and get

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Speaker 1: your drugs. And I paid them thirty bucks and I

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Speaker 1: left the hospital and my wife got what she needed

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Speaker 1: and we It was It was the most remarkable experience

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Speaker 1: because we actually engaged with an emergency room in a

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Speaker 1: hospital without feeling like we were being financially exploited because

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Speaker 1: of our desperation. And unfortunately in the United States, what

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Speaker 1: happens over and over again is that the system knows

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Speaker 1: that we need care and we can't control when we

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Speaker 1: get the care that we need. So unlike other financial purchases,

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Speaker 1: like if you buy a TV or go on a

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Speaker 1: vacation or buy a new car, those are like things

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Speaker 1: we can control. We can shop around, we can side

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Speaker 1: not to buy the thing, we can buy a cheaper

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Speaker 1: version of it. But with healthcare, when you're sick, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a diabetic and you need insulin, you need

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Speaker 1: that to save your life. And unfortunately diabetes and insulin

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Speaker 1: is a tragic example. The Senate Finance Committee just put

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Speaker 1: out a report last year that showed the drug makers

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Speaker 1: and the pharmacy benefit managers. These are the insurance companies

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Speaker 1: that manage pharmacy costs. They have been jacking up the

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Speaker 1: price of insulin year after year after year without showing

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Speaker 1: any improvement in the drug itself, and so unfortunately people

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Speaker 1: are diabetics are just required to pay hundreds of dollars

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Speaker 1: a month for something ten years ago would have cost

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Speaker 1: a fraction of that cost. And so it's it's really

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Speaker 1: a system where the business side of the industry has

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Speaker 1: identified that people need care and they will pay any

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Speaker 1: price because it's about saving their life, for saving the

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Speaker 1: life of their kid or their loved one, and so

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Speaker 1: they take advantage of that and they're exploiting us. And

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of decay option in the industry. There's

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Speaker 1: lots of financial pitfalls, and so the book um really

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Speaker 1: breaks down how do identify these pitfalls, what they are,

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Speaker 1: and then how to navigate around them. And then if

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Speaker 1: you get hit with a bogus bill where it's overpriced

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Speaker 1: or it's inaccurate, I show in the book step by

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Speaker 1: step how to identify those errors and over charges in

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Speaker 1: your bills, and then how to contest them and how

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Speaker 1: to fight back. Yes, yeah, and it actually we're really

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Speaker 1: excited to dive into some of those practical steps when

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Speaker 1: it comes to making sure that we're not just completely

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Speaker 1: getting hosed over by hospitals on different practices. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this just goes to show that as great of a

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Speaker 1: country the US is, we definitely have some some broken

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Speaker 1: industries in our lives. And when it comes to insurance, Marshal,

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Speaker 1: You know, most of us are used to shopping around

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Speaker 1: for the best price and things, but there are multiple

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Speaker 1: important factors when it comes to shopping for health coverage. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And so how can individuals and how can families know

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Speaker 1: that they are choosing the right insurance plan for them? Well,

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Speaker 1: so that's a tough question to answer because everybody is

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Speaker 1: in such a different position when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: type of coverage that they actually need for their family.

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Speaker 1: It depends a lot on their financial situation, and it

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Speaker 1: depends a lot on um how many times they feel

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Speaker 1: like they need to go to the doctor or to

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Speaker 1: the hospital if they have chronic conditions or not, or

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Speaker 1: if they're pretty healthy. Many times for most people, um,

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Speaker 1: working Americans, you're in an employer sponsored health plan, so

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Speaker 1: you're also limited that way. Your employer will present a

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Speaker 1: set of options to you and then you have to

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Speaker 1: choose from those options that covers about a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty five million Americans are in that category. Then you

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Speaker 1: have UM, maybe five percent of all working Americans are

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Speaker 1: in like the exchange plan type of insurance plans. Those

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Speaker 1: are the individual healthcare plans that came through the Affordable

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Speaker 1: Care Act, which often people call that Obamacare. So these

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Speaker 1: are the Obamacare plans. Those can be really expensive UM

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Speaker 1: and subsidies are available for a lot of people depending

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Speaker 1: on their income. But if you're priced out, if you

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Speaker 1: make just too much to get those subsidies, that those

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Speaker 1: are extremely expensive types of health plans to get. And

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Speaker 1: I've even seen a lot of people now using UM

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Speaker 1: some of the sharing plans, you know, like there's Christian

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Speaker 1: healthcare sharing ministries, and then there's others that are not

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Speaker 1: faith based at all, And these are these are plans

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Speaker 1: that are not insurance, but they are basically people coming

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Speaker 1: together and agreeing to pay each other's medical bills. And

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Speaker 1: they always have different types of rules and restrictions, and

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Speaker 1: you have to be very careful to check the references

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Speaker 1: of any of these plans to make sure they're actually

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Speaker 1: paying the bills like they say they are. But I

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Speaker 1: actually know some people who do these plans and they're

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Speaker 1: very they're they've been very happy with them. And if

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Speaker 1: you're relatively healthy and don't feel like an obvious need

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Speaker 1: for ongoing care, those those plans might be might be

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Speaker 1: a good option. Yeah, it seems like that there have

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Speaker 1: been more incentives recently when it comes to getting healthcare

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Speaker 1: on the exchange, Like so many people qualify for a

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Speaker 1: much lower rate, uh, when it comes to getting healthcare

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Speaker 1: that way. But yeah, I'm with you. Some of those

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Speaker 1: health sharing plans for people that don't qualify for those

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Speaker 1: lower rates on the exchange, they've almost become like the

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Speaker 1: only place they can turn, it seems like. And um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what what do people need to consider and look into

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Speaker 1: before they sign up for one of those health sharing companies?

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Speaker 1: Because yeah, I mean if the premiums are three a

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Speaker 1: month versus a month, I mean, that's a huge difference.

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Speaker 1: And most people can't afford some of those policies that

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Speaker 1: you would buy on the exchange. Right. The other issue

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Speaker 1: with the exchange plans is that you're often going to

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Speaker 1: have a pretty sizeable deductible there, and not that deductible

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Speaker 1: is the amount of money you have to pay before

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Speaker 1: the health plan kicks in and pays anything. So there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people on these high deductible health

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Speaker 1: plans right now, and they are paying the first dollar

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Speaker 1: of almost every single thing um that they get care for.

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Speaker 1: So you're paying your premium every month, and then you

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Speaker 1: expect your health plan to cover something for you, but

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Speaker 1: you have to pay that deductible, and sometimes that deductible

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Speaker 1: is three thousand dollars, five thousand dollars, even ten thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: and so effectively you're uninsured until you've paid out a

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Speaker 1: pocket that amount. But with investigating the health sharing plans,

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Speaker 1: I would get references, so I would talk to people

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Speaker 1: who are actually on the plans and ask them how

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Speaker 1: well it's worked for them. I would look up the

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Speaker 1: reviews on Google, on Yelp, I would look up the

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Speaker 1: Better Business Bureau reviews for each of those plans, and

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Speaker 1: you can find out pretty quickly if things are scammy,

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Speaker 1: because it does show up pretty fast um on on

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Speaker 1: online reviews. So I would check all those things. If

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Speaker 1: you just want to start exploring as a journalist, I

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Speaker 1: would often put in the name of a company or

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Speaker 1: an individual in quotes on Google, and then I would

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Speaker 1: just put PDF after it, and if you would, you know,

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Speaker 1: like to look for a PDF file with that name

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Speaker 1: in it. And it's a amazing how many times that

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Speaker 1: will pull up some type of a disciplinary action or

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Speaker 1: some type of a regulator action, some type of public

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Speaker 1: document often gets pulled up that way. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of another little trick. Were searching to see if folks

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Speaker 1: have been have been disciplined. Yeah, you just got a

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Speaker 1: nose around a little bit and see what you find.

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Speaker 1: Very cool. Yeah, our family, Marshall, we we've actually been

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Speaker 1: with Meta share, which is one of those sharing plans,

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Speaker 1: and in our case, we all we do we definitely

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Speaker 1: do have a very high deductible where we are. It's

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Speaker 1: technically called like a forget. Like our annual household portion

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Speaker 1: I think is what it's called, but it is ten

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. But in exchange for that, our monthly premiums

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Speaker 1: essentially the equivalent of what they call it premium. It's

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Speaker 1: only two fifty bucks, uh. And so we're experiencing dramatic

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Speaker 1: savings month a month, and because of that, we have

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Speaker 1: taken that into into account, and our emergency fund is

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Speaker 1: quite large to make sure that we are able to

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Speaker 1: cover that cost for it to arrive. And I guess

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Speaker 1: if you're looking at some of these expensive plans on

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Speaker 1: the Exchange without any subsidies, and if you're paying a

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Speaker 1: whole lot month month, but you're also being forced to

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Speaker 1: pay a very high deductible, you're kind of getting short

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Speaker 1: changed on both ends. Uh. Like you said, it trit

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Speaker 1: down to how you use the plan, right, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: another thing you can do is combine what you're doing

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Speaker 1: there with a direct primary care relationship. We're seeing more

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Speaker 1: and more doctors now moved to direct primary care, which

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Speaker 1: means you pay a monthly cost for unlimited care, often

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Speaker 1: from that doctor. And so this is for your primary care.

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Speaker 1: You know. This is so that your family still gets

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Speaker 1: your annual checkups, you get any vaccinations or anything that

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Speaker 1: you need, any type of like standard healthcare that your

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Speaker 1: family needs is going to be really well taken care of.

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Speaker 1: And you could probably get that for round a hundred

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Speaker 1: to two hundred dollars a month. Yeah, those are definitely

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Speaker 1: becoming more popular and for good reason. Um are We've

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Speaker 1: got more questions we want to get to with you, Marshall,

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Speaker 1: including how to shop around for a specific procedure in

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Speaker 1: advance of that procedure being done. And then I'll so too,

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Speaker 1: like once once a bill comes your way, how do

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Speaker 1: you fight it in order to save money. We'll get

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Speaker 1: to the nuts and both of that stuff right after

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Speaker 1: this break. M all right, we are back from the break.

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Speaker 1: We're talking with Marshall Allen about healthcare costs. Uh. And Marshall,

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Speaker 1: you know, even though we're seeing near term healthcare costs

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Speaker 1: on the rise, you say that there are ways that

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Speaker 1: we can spend less of our hard earned money on healthcare.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest levers that we can

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Speaker 1: pull in order to reduce that cost That's a great question.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the main thesis of my book is that

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Speaker 1: for a year after year, now for decades, we have

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Speaker 1: been paying more and more for our healthcare and getting

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Speaker 1: less for our money. But if you look at the

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Speaker 1: data about how overpriced and wasteful our health care system is,

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Speaker 1: we should be paying a lot less money and getting

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Speaker 1: a lot more for our money. So that's really the

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Speaker 1: argument in my book. There's no justification for these high

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Speaker 1: healthcare costs. And once you know that, then that empowers

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Speaker 1: you to give you the conviction you need to push back.

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Speaker 1: So I think the number one easiest way to um

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Speaker 1: save money on healthcare is make sure that you are

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Speaker 1: not getting care that you don't need. It's it's unbelievable

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Speaker 1: how much care is actually deemed unnecessary in our health

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Speaker 1: care system. It's maybe of all the care that's provided

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Speaker 1: is found to be unnecessary. And so the trick, of

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Speaker 1: course is, well, how do you know what's necessary and

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Speaker 1: what's not right. You don't want to you don't want

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Speaker 1: to avoid getting the care that you need. And so

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Speaker 1: one way to think this through is recognize the incentives

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Speaker 1: that the health care system is operating under. If your

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Speaker 1: doctor or your surgeon, or your hospital only gets paid

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Speaker 1: when they perform an operation or they provide some type

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Speaker 1: of treatment, then their incentive is going to do be

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Speaker 1: to do more, because that's how they get paid. And

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Speaker 1: that's just something that all of us as human beings,

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Speaker 1: are susceptible to the incentives that drive us. Right, and

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Speaker 1: so when your doctor is recommending something that's discretionary, let's

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Speaker 1: say it's a test or a treatment, or a procedure

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Speaker 1: or a drug, and you're not sure, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: just trying to figure out whether what's going on. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's not an obvious case where something should be done.

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Speaker 1: Ask the doctor this question, Ask the doctor what happens

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Speaker 1: if we wait? What happens if we don't do this

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Speaker 1: right now? In fact, I have this happen. It comes

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Speaker 1: up almost every time I go to my dentist. My

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Speaker 1: dentist is always always trying to get me to do

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Speaker 1: X rays. And I'm sure your dentist is always trying

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Speaker 1: to get you to do X rays too. Right, well,

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Speaker 1: how much of my teeth really shifted in the last

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Speaker 1: year or two years or six months? And so ask

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Speaker 1: the question what happens if we wait? What happens if

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Speaker 1: we don't do these X rays right now? Are my

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Speaker 1: teeth going to fall out of my mouth? Um? Is

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Speaker 1: there going to be a dramatic shift in my mouth

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Speaker 1: that six months from now you won't be able to

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Speaker 1: give me the cleaning of my teeth? One exactly is

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Speaker 1: going on here? And and often what you find is

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Speaker 1: they don't have a really good answer for that question.

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Speaker 1: So ask that question what happens if we wait? And

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Speaker 1: what that does is it reframes the conversation. So instead

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Speaker 1: of assuming that we're going to do something, you start

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Speaker 1: exploring the option of not doing it and finding out. Okay,

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Speaker 1: am I gonna drop dead if I walk out of

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Speaker 1: here right now without doing this thing you're telling me.

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Speaker 1: Another thing you can check to avoid unnecessary care is

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Speaker 1: look at the recommendations of the US Preventive Services Task Force,

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Speaker 1: So any any listener can google that the US Preventive

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Speaker 1: Services Task Force, and the task Force is a group

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Speaker 1: of volunteer experts, all doctors, who are funded by the

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Speaker 1: federal government to do research and read the latest research

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Speaker 1: on things like preventive screening tests. So let's say for

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Speaker 1: a woman, it might be a mammogram, for a guy,

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Speaker 1: at might be a prostate exam. These are things where

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Speaker 1: they always want to do these screenings to say, well,

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Speaker 1: we want to make sure that you don't have breast cancer, right,

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Speaker 1: which sounds important, and if your doctor is telling you

432
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: to do that, you definitely want to take their advice. Right. Well,

433
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: the studies show that women it's not recommended to get

434
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: a breast examination mammogram if they don't have a history

435
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: of breast cancer until they're fifty years old. And yet

436
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: doctors will tell women starting certainly in their forties. Because

437
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: that's been my wife's experience that they should be getting

438
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: that every year or every two years. And if you

439
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: look at those recommendations, they actually do not say that's

440
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: that's a recommendation based on the best scientific evidence, because

441
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: what happens is they have a lot of false negatives

442
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: on those tests and it's extremely where rare for younger

443
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: women with no history of breast cancer to get it.

444
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: You can also identify it with just the manual examinations.

445
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: You don't have to do the scans, and so that

446
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: helps you avoid treatment you don't need, helps you avoid

447
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: over treatment. And they have these kinds of guidelines for

448
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: all different types of screening tests. So check out the

449
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: task force. That's great. I like that, and I think

450
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: I like what you're saying. There's a certain amount of

451
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: pushback that we need to give to I think we

452
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: just instinctively trust somebody like a doctor or a dentist,

453
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 1: somebody in a white lab coat, the man or woman

454
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: whoever's providing the service, and we just assume that whatever

455
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: they tell us is the next step we need to take.

456
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: But I I love that we should just push back

457
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: with a simple question that makes it easy for us

458
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: um to then make sure that whatever we're step we're

459
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: taking next is in our best interest? I want to know.

460
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: To martial the healthcare industry, it makes it so difficult

461
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: for us to become an informed consumer. Even with the

462
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 1: recent price transparency order from the federal government, it's hard

463
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: to know what the price should be for any sort

464
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: of service that we're looking to get. So when we

465
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: go see a doctor, how do we know if we're

466
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: being charged the fair price in the first place before

467
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: we actually sign up for that percere that we feel

468
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: like it's necessary. So most of the health care that

469
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: we get is discretionary, and by that I mean you

470
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: have time to actually decide where you're going to go

471
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: for that care. So another really key principle to keep

472
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: in mind is always realize that there's huge price variation

473
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 1: in healthcare, and so you might have, um, let's say

474
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: you have to get a CT scan or an X

475
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: ray or an m r I. If you're a doctor

476
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: or nurse practitioner or whoever, that clinician is routes you.

477
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: Let's say they work for a big hospital chain in

478
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: your town, and so they're going to route you and

479
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: refer you to an imaging center affiliated with your hospital. Well,

480
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: research has shown and people in the industry know that

481
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: any time you go to a hospital for a lab

482
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: test or an MRI or any type of a scan,

483
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: the prices are going to be way higher and I

484
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: mean exponentially higher than if you go to an independent

485
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: imaging center or an independent lab. And so if you

486
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: just need some type of lab test or scan, identify

487
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: an independent imaging center and call and get the prices there.

488
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: And you can also check out a company called Green

489
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: Imaging dot net. Green Imaging dot net, look him up online.

490
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: They do scans and they do direct pay contracts with

491
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: imaging centers, and so you can get a scan. I

492
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: talked to one guy he needed two m r I

493
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: s before he got back surgery. He was told that

494
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: it would cost nine thousand dollars if he did it

495
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: through the hospital mr I center. He went to Green

496
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: Imaging and he got both of those scans for about

497
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: nine dollars. So just like in the blink of an eye,

498
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: he saved more than eight thousand dollars. And he was

499
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: on a high deductible plan. He had a ten thousand

500
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: dollar deductible, So for him, he saved eight grand just

501
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: by avoiding the hospital mr I center and so that's

502
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: not something you would ever expect, right, it's the same

503
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: m R. I. So why would it cost so much

504
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: more if you go to one location than another? And

505
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: this is also why you don't ever want to go

506
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: to an emergency room. If you just have the sniffles,

507
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: go to your primary care doctor or go to an

508
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: urgent care center. But if you go to that hospital

509
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: um emergency room, they are going to build you much

510
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: much more money for the exact same service you could

511
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: get somewhere else at a lower price. Yeah, just like

512
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: with music, it pays to uh find out the independent bands,

513
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: find those in these labs, find those in the imaging centers,

514
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: because you can save you can save a lot of money.

515
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: Catch them before they're big, you know, like I I

516
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: knew them way back when the only charging nine. So

517
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: Marshall your book, it's called never pay the first bill?

518
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: Got it? We know that that that should be kind

519
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: of the action that we take there, But can you

520
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: explain why it is that we actually shouldn't pay the

521
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: first bill. We've talked about how to get that discount

522
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: ahead of time, but after we received the bill, why

523
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: shouldn't we pay that first bill? Well, when I say

524
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: never pay the first bill. I mean, I'm obvious they're

525
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: not saying never pay your bills, But what I mean

526
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: is the principle is never pay the first bill until

527
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: you have checked to make sure that it's accurate and

528
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: that it's priced fairly. So when you get that medical

529
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: bill in the mail, the first thing you need to

530
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: do is make sure your insurance plan, if you have insurance,

531
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: has processed it correctly. So your insurance plan gives you

532
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: what's called the explanation of benefits also known as an

533
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,239
Speaker 1: e o B, and that has a breakdown of how

534
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: much the build charges were, how much the agreed upon

535
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: amount was that the insurance plan has agreed to pay,

536
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: and that should be some kind of a discount off

537
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: of the build charges. Again, this is just the crazy

538
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: convoluted way we pay for healthcare in this country. The

539
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: price is not the price. They give this really high

540
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: build charge amount and then the insurance company is supposed

541
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: to give you a discount off of that. So anyway

542
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: you look at the build charges, you look at the

543
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: price that the insurance company negotiated for you to pay.

544
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: You have a deductible that's going to be factored in there.

545
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: Maybe you might have coinsurance. That's the amount that the

546
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: portion that you have to pay versus the portion that

547
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: your insurance plan pays, and then you have the amount

548
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: you owe the other last year. Maybe it's a little

549
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: more than a year ago. I got a bill in

550
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: the mail for two hundred and fifty dollars from an

551
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: urgent care center where my son had gone. And they

552
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: said on that bill that my insurance plan had paid nothing,

553
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: and I had not received any explanation of benefits from

554
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: my insurance plan. So I knew something was off right there.

555
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: So I call my insurance company and they said that

556
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 1: the bill had not even been sent to them, so

557
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: right there, just by checking that bill, I was able

558
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: to see, oh, this didn't get processed by my insurance plan,

559
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: and so they need to send it to the insurance company,

560
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: not to me. So they sent the bill to the

561
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: insurance company right like that. In five minutes, I saved

562
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: two fifty dollars. If I wasn't paying attention, that would

563
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: have been something easily that myself or my wife could

564
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: have paid. And so I think I think people also

565
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: don't realize just how screwed up this billing system is.

566
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: You think that because Um, it's a doctor. You know,

567
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: he has his m D. You have nurses who are

568
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: highly trained, you have physical therapists. They're in fancy hospitals

569
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: with really expensive equipment. So they give you this aura

570
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: of competence, right, and they better because we're putting our

571
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: lives in their hands. Right. But on the billing side,

572
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: I mean it is a complete mess. Some of these

573
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: hospitals and insurance companies they're using I T systems from

574
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: like the eighties and nineties. I mean they have not

575
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: updated the programming on these things, and so instead they've

576
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: done a bunch of patches on top of patches on

577
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: top of patches. Their auto paying bills millions a day.

578
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: This is like a giant assembly line with no quality

579
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: control mechanism in place. And so if you know that,

580
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: then you know, okay, there's a good chance that there's

581
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: an error on my bill also a lot of times,

582
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: so so look at the insurance company E O B.

583
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: Then get an itemized medical bill. So hospitals will usually

584
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: just give you a bill that says pay this amount.

585
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: They don't even tell you. They don't give you a

586
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: breakdown on it, like if you went to the grocery

587
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: store and they just said pay this amount without telling

588
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: you the prices. No receipt, no receipt, right, it's like

589
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: having no receipt. You're like, well, come on, guys, like,

590
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: what is what did you bill me for? What did

591
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: you do? Well, when you look at those itemized bills,

592
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: and it is your right to have it, It is

593
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: absolutely your right to have that. When you get that

594
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: itemized bill, you can check and see, Okay, did they

595
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: do this, did they do this, did they do this?

596
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: Oftentimes you'll find things on there that they did not

597
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: even do. In fact, I just got an email from

598
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: a reader who said he went to his dentist. Again,

599
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: not to pick on dentist, but this is like the

600
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: dentist episode, right, But he said he went to his

601
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: dentist and he when he saw the breakdown in the charges,

602
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: there's a hundred and seventy five dollar charge on there,

603
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: and he couldn't figure out what it was. He called

604
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: the dentist and their billing department and they couldn't figure

605
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: out what it was for either, so they took it

606
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: off and he was again, He's like, in five minutes,

607
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: he saved a hundred seventy five dollars just by having

608
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: them remove that. Sometimes that gentle pushback does work, right,

609
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: or you know, just recognizing, actually, my insurance company didn't

610
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: get the bill, and I need to make sure that

611
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: they get it, and you know that they pay the

612
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: portion that they need to pay before I even consider paying.

613
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: But then you know what happens if you get an

614
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: outrageous bill and you're like, Okay, the pushback isn't working.

615
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: You even mentioned taking a more drastic measure like take

616
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: people to court, right? Is that? Is that another step

617
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: we should consider to Oh, I think this is the

618
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: game changing tactic right here. Guys. So anybody who loves America,

619
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: and I do love America, and I know our country

620
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: has problems, but I do love this country. There are

621
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: certain privileges we have in this country that other people

622
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: just do not enjoy. And small claims court is one

623
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: of these privileges because our small claims court system is

624
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: set up so that a powerless, weak individual can sue

625
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: using the power of our udicial system and require a

626
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: powerful company or individual to answer for the way they

627
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: are treating that weaker, less powerful individual. And so when

628
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: you get a bill, so let's say you I, you

629
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: analyze it and you can see that it's in error,

630
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: or you can see it's overpriced. So I also show

631
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: in the book how to check prices, and there's a

632
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: website called fair health Consumer dot org. Look up fair

633
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: Health Consumer and compare it to your itemized medical bill,

634
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and especially you need to get the billing codes. I

635
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: show how to do that in the book. You can

636
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: look up and you can see is the price that

637
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: they charge me fair or not. Now, also on hospital websites,

638
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: they're required to post their prices, and often what you

639
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: see is that the cash price might even be a

640
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: lot less than the price that your insurance company negotiated

641
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: for you. So this has been standard in the industry, right.

642
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: Hospitals and insurance companies set prices, and then they tell

643
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: us to pay them, whether their fair prices or not.

644
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: Even if the cash price is less, they'll just tell you,

645
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: oh no, that's our negotiated rate, so you have to

646
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: pay it. And my argument is this, Look, why should

647
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: any one patient pay more than any other patient for

648
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: the exact same service at the exact same hospital. It

649
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. And so just because they say

650
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: this is how it's always been, I'm sorry, I don't

651
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: care what kind of nonsense you all are, what kind

652
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: of world you're living in. I don't have to agree

653
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: to that. I mean, I'm involved here too, and not

654
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: only that, you're making me pay for this so small

655
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: claims court. If you identify a bill that's in error

656
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: or overpriced, you can file a case for like twenty

657
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: or thirty or forty dollars. In most states, you don't.

658
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: You have gathered all the information you need. You have

659
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: the evidence you need because in my book, I show

660
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: how to get an itemized bill, how to price it,

661
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: how to get your medical records and make sure they

662
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: document the care you received. It's easy to do this stuff.

663
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 1: It does take some steps, it takes some knowledge and learning,

664
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: take some initiative. But if they will not correct it

665
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: when you sue them, what you do is you create

666
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: a very expensive hassle for them, because now the hospital

667
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: has to hire their own attorney for hundreds of dollars

668
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: an hour to defend themselves against a case. I mean,

669
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: many of these cases are only worth a few hundred

670
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: dollars or a few thousand dollars, and the limits in

671
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: a lot of states are actually quite high. Like in

672
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: the state of Texas, you can sue in small claims

673
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: court for anything under twenty dollars. In New Jersey where

674
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: I am, there's a branch of circuit court here called

675
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: the Special Civil Branch where you don't have to have

676
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: an attorney to sue someone. It's just like small claims,

677
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: and you can sue for up to fifteen thousand dollars.

678
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: So the limits are quite big. Some states it's small,

679
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: like three grand, but still it's enough that covers a

680
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: lot of these bills, and so we are protected. So

681
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: then think about it. They now have to hire an

682
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: attorney to defend themselves. It's going to cost him a

683
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: lot of money. You are giving them the incentive that

684
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: they need need to come to the table and give

685
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: you a fair price instead of price gouging. You give

686
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: me the price. It's fair. I'm happy to pay a

687
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: fair price. But what I don't want to do is

688
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: just let you rip me off. And that's what I'm

689
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: trying to encourage people to do. Let's let's say let's

690
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: say the hospital reaches back out. But like before you

691
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 1: get to the lawsuit territory, right, you have not sued

692
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: them yet, because you're not at that point in the

693
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: in the hospitals like, listen, we we love you. We're

694
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: gonna put you on a payment plan. But what what

695
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: should you say when when that happens. Oh, that's always

696
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: their solution. That's always their solution, is to put you

697
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: on a payment plan. Sending people into debt is not

698
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: the answer for a dysfunctional and ridiculously overpriced healthcare system,

699
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: and that's been their go to method. Oh, we'll just

700
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: put you on a payment plan. I talked to a

701
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: woman the other day. Um, in fact, this was at

702
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: a conference where I was speaking. This woman raises her hands.

703
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: She tells this, I've never heard anything like this. She

704
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 1: had a colonoscopy where they build her fifteen thousand dollars

705
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: for the colonoscopy. Fifteen thousand dollars, You talk about taking

706
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: it up the rear. This this woman was getting screwed

707
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: in more ways than one. So so the woman, of

708
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: course did not have the fifteen k to pay for

709
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: the colonoscopy. Now, just for for a little balance here,

710
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: you should easily be able to get a colonoscopy for

711
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: one thousand to three thousand dollars. So that fifteen thousand

712
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: is completely outrageous. So they said, oh, we'll put you

713
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: on a payment plan. She couldn't afford most of the

714
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: payment plans, so they put her on a payment plan

715
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: that lasted for ten years. Ten years that this poor

716
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: woman has had to pay this bill for this colonoscopy

717
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: that was outrageously priced. And so that's a case where

718
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: if she would have sued them in small claims court,

719
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: she would have said, look, I'm not there's this is

720
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: an overpriced bill. Imagine them justifying that in front of

721
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: a judge. That's gonna be a tough one to justice

722
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: I because it's totally outside the standard of what people

723
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: are paying. And there's actually in my book I talk

724
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: about the open price term. This is a part of

725
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: our law. It's part of our Uniform Commercial Code, which

726
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: is the law that governs consumer transactions in the United States.

727
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: And the open price term says, if you don't get

728
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: a price up front, then it's assumed that it will

729
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: be a price that is reasonable and that's set in

730
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: good faith. And so the health care system does not

731
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: have the right under our laws in this country to

732
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: charge us whatever they want. It's what they've been doing

733
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: and they've been getting away with it, but they don't

734
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: actually have the right to do that, and so you know,

735
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: when you make your case in small claims court, you

736
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: actually have a strong legal standing to make this case.

737
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 1: And so people just need to do it. It does

738
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: take courage and it does take initiative, but I encourage people.

739
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: You can reach out to me. You can look look

740
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: me up on my website more shell Allen dot com,

741
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: send me a message. I will. I am happy to

742
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: show you how this process works, and I lay it

743
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: out in the book. But I'm also happy to coach

744
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: people through it because every time I help someone through

745
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: the process. First of all, um, it's just delightful for me.

746
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: I've made this my hobby. It's really fun for me.

747
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: But also I get great case studies right that I

748
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: can share with other people. Um. And so it is

749
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: really really fun to see people pushing back, standing up

750
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: for themselves. It's very empowering. And then you see that

751
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: the bullies back off because they don't want to spend

752
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: that amount of money to defend these cases. You're making

753
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: it not in their interest financially to take you on.

754
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: And again, it's not so you can avoid paying, it's

755
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: just so that you don't get ripped off. It's just

756
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: so that you can pay a fair price. And and

757
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: specifically we want to get to some of those winds

758
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: here in a little bit after the break. But Marshall,

759
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: does it ever make sense as you're negotiating and as

760
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out what is going on with

761
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: your bill? Does it ever actually make sense to mention

762
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: the fact that, hey, well I understand that I got

763
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: a pretty good case here. Doesn't make sense to mention

764
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: small claims court when you're negotiating with the billing department.

765
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: Definitely it does. And I don't know that it's gonna work.

766
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: You know, it might, it might not. Um The other

767
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: thing that you should do is before you sue, and

768
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: I have a template for it in the book, send

769
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: a warning letter. So one thing that courts don't want.

770
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: They don't want us wasting their time. They don't want

771
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: us taking a thing to mess with our taxpayer funded

772
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: court system if it's avoidable, And so you send him.

773
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: You're gonna send him a thirty day notice before you

774
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: sue him, or two week notice or one week notice,

775
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: whatever you want. But you want to be able to

776
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: show that Judge I did everything I could to settle

777
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: this in a fair way without wasting your time, Judge,

778
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: and the hospital refused to give me a fair deal.

779
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: And so that warning letter does tell them, Hey, if

780
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: you don't correct this within a week or within two

781
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: weeks or thirty days, I'm going to sue you in

782
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: small claims court. So you definitely want to notify them

783
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: and tell them that you're going to do that, And

784
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 1: I think it is effective. What what what what about listeners

785
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: Marshall who have got their debt, has their medical debt

786
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: has been sold to a collection agency, And you actually

787
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: say that that might put us in a stronger negotiating

788
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: position once the debt is out of the hospital's hand

789
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: and in the hands of an agency, right, Like, how

790
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: do we then make sure that we're not that we're

791
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: getting a deal when it comes to paying off a

792
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: debt that's been sold elsewhere. Well, you're hitting on something

793
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: that to me is maybe the greatest shame of our

794
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: health care system. We spend twice as much per person

795
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: on healthcare than any other citizens of any other developed country,

796
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: or any other average spending a no developed country, and

797
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: yet we have one in five Americans, tens of millions

798
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: Americans have medical debt in collections and so I included

799
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: a chapter on that because we need to not stigmatize it.

800
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: If it hasn't happened to you, it's happened to someone,

801
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's not it hasn't happened because somebody was

802
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: irresponsible or did something they shouldn't have done. In fact,

803
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: it's probably happened be because of an error filled or

804
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: overpriced healthcare bill that the person didn't even know they

805
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: could push back against, and so they ended up in collections.

806
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: But in a dark way. Like you mentioned, your leverage

807
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: gets better, and that's because they've given up on you.

808
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: Basically they think you're not going to give them anything,

809
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: and so that's that's the starting point. You know, So

810
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: when that collection agent calls, you do not ignore the call.

811
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: First of all, contest that medical debt in writing within

812
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: thirty days. Make them justify it again. I have a

813
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: template in the book of a letter that you can

814
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: send to them by certified mail, so that you need

815
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 1: to make them justify it because often their whole debt

816
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: collection system, they buy and sell so much debt so

817
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: many times that I mean they swap it like you know,

818
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: used to trade baseball cards when you're a kid. You know,

819
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: and so they can't even keep track of who actually

820
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: has the legal grounds to collect the debt. So make

821
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: them justify it. But let's say they do justify it,

822
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: and now you need to negotiate a payment. They're gonna

823
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: start like, let's say you owe a thousand dollars, They're

824
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: going to start at a thousand. You need to start

825
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: at zero because already you know, if it's coming to collections,

826
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: they think they're not going to get anything. So start

827
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: with zero and say, I'm so sorry, I can't afford

828
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: to pay you anything. So I know you'd really like

829
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: to get the thousand from me, but that's not gonna work.

830
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: I mean, my family has all these bills. Build a

831
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: relationship with them, help them to understand where you're coming from.

832
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: You'd like to pay it, Yeah, paying a picture for him.

833
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: Build a relationship. It does not do any good to

834
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: cuss these people out, even though you might want to.

835
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: And um, I talked to experts who said that when

836
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: they buy debt, they buy it for pennies on the dollar.

837
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: So let's say it's a thousand dollars, they might have

838
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: bought your debt for it the most, say fifty dollars

839
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: and So if you can get them to take something

840
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: over fifty dollars so that they make a profit but

841
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 1: a massive dis count for you, then you can pay

842
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: that off and a huge discount. So the number that

843
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: I came to with one of the experts I talked

844
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: to was get it down to about an eight five discount.

845
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: So in other words, if you owed a thousand, you

846
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: know they probably bought it for fifty at the most.

847
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: See if you can get them down to a hundred

848
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars, pay it off in a lump sum,

849
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: get that thing gone if you can, or get on

850
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: a payment plan for that reduced rate. But be warned there,

851
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: because you don't ever want to get on a payment

852
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: plan that you default on, because if you default on it,

853
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: then that debt is going to go right back to

854
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: that original thousand dollar number that you owed without any discount. Right,

855
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: So once you strike a deal, make sure you stick

856
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: with the terms of that deal. All right, marsh we're

857
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break. But after that break, we're

858
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: gonna talk about You've given some great examples already of

859
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: some wins. Basically, some examples of folks who have been

860
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: able to drastically reduce the cost of their medical bills.

861
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: But we want to hear some more of those. We'll

862
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: get to that, plus a couple other questions right after this.

863
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: All right, we're back from the break. We're still talking

864
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: with Marshall Allen about fighting and winning when it comes

865
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: to insane healthcare cost. A ton of good information already

866
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: on this episode. Marshall. You have this place on your

867
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: website though, where where people can share victory stories. I

868
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: love that because I think, like we need to hold

869
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 1: these people up as heroes who are fighting back insistent

870
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: saying healthcare system. But what are a couple of the

871
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: best ones you've received? Well, I mean, this has been

872
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: the most fun part of the book for me. Like

873
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: I really loved writing the book. It's been fun to

874
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: launch the book. It's been successful, it's selling well, so

875
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: that's really fun. But the most satisfying part to me

876
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: is these victory stories. And so again I encourage anybody

877
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: to go to my website and I have a form

878
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: on there that you can fill out. If you've had

879
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: one of these wins, please share it with me, because

880
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm writing these up. I'm doing interviews with people who

881
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: have victories because what I want to do is um

882
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: kind of get rid of the idea that we can't

883
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: do anything about this. Like the subtitle of my book,

884
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: the book is never pay the first bill. In other

885
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: ways to fight the health care system and win the end.

886
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: Winning is the most important part. So let me just

887
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,959
Speaker 1: read this. UM. I know this woman, and I helped

888
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: this woman myself, but I love this Amazon review. It's

889
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: a woman named Alexia Kalal is her name. She says

890
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: on her Amazon review. This book saved my family SEVN

891
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: d K and medical bills. This book and the author

892
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: are the real deal. My family was near financial ruin

893
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: when we found out our insurance denied my procedure and

894
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: the hospital tried to stick us with a seventy eight

895
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: thousand dollar bill. We were told by both the hospital

896
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: and our insurance that we didn't qualify for any assistance.

897
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: Thanks to Marshall and the information in his book, we

898
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: were able to push back against the hospital and insurance

899
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: company in an informed way that made them realize they

900
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: had to do something to fix this. We ultimately came

901
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: out owing nothing. Without this information, we wouldn't have even

902
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: known where they began, and we would have gone down

903
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: the path of filing bankruptcy if you were dealing with

904
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: bills large or small. The information in this book is

905
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: truly life changing. And she has a picture of her

906
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 1: bill from the hospital. It says total charges seventy eight thousand,

907
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: six hundred and twelve dollars balanced do on the account zero. Man,

908
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: about just hearing you read that. When you first read that,

909
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: you must have been like right, she called me, She

910
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: called me Actually, So this Alexia is a really um

911
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: wonderful young woman. UM. She and her husband Derek, have

912
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: two kids. They live in South Dakota. And she was

913
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: told by the hospital that they that her insurance company

914
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: had approved this treatment. Well, what happened is they actually

915
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 1: um center to the wrong message because what they said,

916
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: the insurance company had told them, well, it doesn't have

917
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: to be approved because it's an outpatient procedure, not an

918
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: impatient procedure. So she got the wrong information. But she

919
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: listened to what everyone told her. She got the procedure.

920
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: The procedure actually worked. It took care of the problem

921
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: that she was having. But then she gets a bill

922
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: in the mail because they said it was unapproved because

923
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: it was experimental. So I have a chapter in my

924
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: book about how to fight these insurance company denials, and

925
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: so I walk people through the mindset, the approach, the

926
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: evidence based argument you need to make, and also how

927
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: to get your employer involved. And in this case, she

928
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: was in her husband's employer sponsored health plan, and they

929
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: were able to get the employer to put some pressure

930
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: on the insurance company to to take care of this bill,

931
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: which they should have done in the first place. Insurance

932
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: companies will call anything experimental, and so sometimes things are experimental,

933
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: but but not everything is experimental. And so I really

934
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: love that example because she had the courage to do it.

935
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: Her back was against the wall, so she had to

936
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: do it, but she came out on top. And that

937
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: is a huge, huge encourage in and a huge when Yeah. Well,

938
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that stood out to me is

939
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: that she said that she was informed, and that is

940
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: what you're going through your book. You even said yourself

941
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: to be able to make these evidence based arguments like

942
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: that is what we need to do when it comes

943
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: to making sure that we are being treated properly. Uh.

944
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: And you can't just be like it's too big, I

945
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: hate it, don't make it go away, like you have

946
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: to have an informed arguments, right, what I like to

947
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: show people because again, how do you get people engaged

948
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: in the topic of health insurance, right, or how do

949
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: you get people motivated to get engaged and activated with

950
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: looking at their medical bills? And the way I'm trying

951
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: to do it, quite crassly, is to say you could

952
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: save hundreds or even thousands of dollars if you engage

953
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: with this, if you boost your financial literacy in this,

954
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: in this healthcare way, right. I mean sometimes you think

955
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: about the first time when you're a young person, maybe

956
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: a teenager, and you got your first checking account, and

957
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: you got those first bank statements, and you have to

958
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: even balance a checkbook, and you're like, how does this work? Anyway,

959
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: I'm very confused by all these numbers. But you knew

960
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: that you had to learn how to balance a checkbook

961
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: and look at your bank statements or your credit card

962
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: statements because if you didn't, you could lose hundreds or

963
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 1: even thousands of dollars. Well, the numbers are even higher

964
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: in the health care system. If we don't engage on this,

965
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: we could lose hundreds or thousands of dollars per health

966
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: care interaction. I think again, people just don't realize how

967
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: overpriced the health care system is and how unjustified the

968
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: prices are, and how they want you to stay in

969
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: the dark so that they can can keep making you

970
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: pay more. It's completely unfair and it gets me fired up.

971
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: So I'm sure you can tell that that I I

972
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: don't like this. I do not like this at all,

973
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's ruining people's lives. It feels

974
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: like there's a gun to our head. But you're teaching

975
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: us the jiu jitsu to like to figure out how

976
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: to like quickly like take that gun away and then

977
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: knock it out of that that aggressor's hands so that

978
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: we are on a level playing field. And and and there's

979
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 1: just so many great tips in the book and we

980
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: got to talk about so much of it today on

981
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: on the show. So yeah, Marshall, I love the book

982
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: so much, and we will make sure that our audience

983
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: checks it out because it really it's going to save

984
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: them money. In the long hall um, where can our

985
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: audience find out more about the book, more about you

986
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: and what you're up to. Well, so I already mentioned

987
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: my website Marshall Allen dot com. Another thing I really

988
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: want to tell people about and encourage people to support

989
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: I have just launched a crowdfunding campaign on indie go go,

990
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: and that's to create a series of health literacy videos

991
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: that are based on the book. And so I take

992
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: all these principles that are in the book. I know

993
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: most people aren't going to read a book, you know,

994
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: they're not gonna take the time to get it and

995
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: read it. But if you can get this content, it's

996
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: like fifteen short, three to five minute videos. I'm raising

997
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 1: money for the production of the videos, the animation and

998
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: the graphics costs, and so people can go to indiego

999
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: go and look up the never Paid Pathway that's what

1000
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: I'm calling it, or you can look at my name

1001
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: UM so you can support that and share that if

1002
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: you're interested. I'm trying to get the power of the

1003
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: crowd to help fund the production costs and then um

1004
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: share victory stories with me. You know, that's another thing

1005
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about. I'm seeing people achieve these um

1006
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: individual wins and it's it's tremendously empowering. And I know,

1007
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: and I know that your listeners know many people are

1008
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: not in a position where they can stand up for themselves.

1009
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they're too sick. They're trying to fight

1010
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: um there their cancer or something, they're trying to care

1011
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: for loved ones. Maybe they're working a lot of jobs

1012
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: and they just don't have time. And so I think

1013
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: not everybody's going to be able to do this, but

1014
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: those of us who can, like, you're not just fighting

1015
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 1: for yourself. You know you're gonna have your own win,

1016
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: but you're also standing up for all those other people

1017
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: who can't stand up for themselves against a system that

1018
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: has just become entitled to take our money without any justification.

1019
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: And so I think when we rise up together and

1020
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: push back, we are going to have a tremendous amount

1021
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 1: of leverage to bring about change in our health care system.

1022
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: And that's going to help us a lot in the

1023
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: long run. I love it. That's so good, Marshall. Uh yeah,

1024
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: thank you for meeting us here at the intersection of

1025
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: money and healthcare. You were the right man to talk

1026
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: to about that and we appreciate you joining us today.

1027
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's a huge honor for me.

1028
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: Keep it up, guys, all right, Matt, I gotta say

1029
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: that was a great conversation, and Marshall has been doing

1030
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: the hard work for a long time now to know

1031
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: first the problems that are in our health care system

1032
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: and then how we as individuals can fight back against it.

1033
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: Tons of great info in the book, and then just

1034
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: a lot of great information in this conversation that I

1035
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: think can help our listeners actually fight back against unfair

1036
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: bills that they might receive from hospital, and then even

1037
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 1: just how to proactively shop around and get the lowest

1038
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: price on a procedure that you need. But yeah, what

1039
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: what was your big takeaway from this combo? Yeah? I mean,

1040
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: so one of the things he mentioned early on in

1041
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: the interview, he talked about direct primary care doctors and

1042
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: so basically these are essentially ends that you work out

1043
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 1: and a lot of times individual doctors will have them.

1044
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: I mean, the way I understand it, it's a lot

1045
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: like a subscription service. Exactly, you pay a month and

1046
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 1: month you have direct access to this doctor and you

1047
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: get everything you needed taken care of. That's not something

1048
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 1: I have ever had, but as our family grows, as

1049
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: we kind of continue to have different issues that we

1050
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: might want to have looked at, like, I feel like

1051
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: I could see that becoming something that would make sense

1052
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 1: for us. He recommended it. It's not something we've talked

1053
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: a lot about on the show, but we are seeing

1054
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: the rise in these relationships, and especially as more families

1055
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: and individuals move to these high deductible plans to take

1056
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: care of them if disaster or tragedy were to strict right, like,

1057
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: if there's cancer or something like that, you're gonna hit

1058
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: that deductible and you might end up paying you know,

1059
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: five seven, eight thousand dollars out of pocket to hit

1060
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: that higher deductible. But when it comes to some of

1061
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,479
Speaker 1: the kind of day to day doctor stuff, uh, these

1062
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: direct primary care plans might be the path for folks

1063
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: to take. Yeah, for sure, we're gonna see those continue

1064
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: to proliferate, and it kind of cuts out the middleman

1065
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: right now. It's just when your doctor as opposed to

1066
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: some insurance company standing in the middle, and you get

1067
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: kind of unfettered access to your doctor under some of

1068
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: those plans, Like it feels like there's more of a relationship.

1069
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 1: It feels like more like an old school doctor said, exactly,

1070
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: you know where you might show up to your house

1071
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: with a leather satchel, right right, I think you might

1072
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: have to pay bonus, like you have to pay extra

1073
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: for that if you come on horseback. How much does

1074
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: that get to cost me? But little house in the

1075
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: prairie style, that's what I'm looking for. Can you provide

1076
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: that for me exactly? That would be nice. And then

1077
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: you just like, can we barter? I'll treat you three

1078
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: chickens if you'll take a look at this rash. How

1079
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: about some steaks? Marshall would be down for that. Yeah,

1080
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: what about you? Mail? What was your big takeaway? Man?

1081
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: I think ultimately my big takeaway was it takes tenacity.

1082
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: You have to arm yourself with the knowledge and then

1083
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 1: you just have to kind of get that bulldog face

1084
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: and you kind of got to go about the process

1085
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: of attacking these healthcare bills. If you take it lying down,

1086
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: you're gonna pay high prices exactly. And if you fight back,

1087
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: you're going to see major price breaks. You're going to

1088
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: see some of these bills completely forgiven. But you have

1089
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: to be proactive and you have to be willing to fight.

1090
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: And you know that's in the title of the book, right,

1091
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: fight and win, And if you fight, you're gonna win

1092
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: more often than not. Um, But you've got to be

1093
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: willing to throw the first punch. You gotta have that

1094
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: right mindset, and that's also what's going to allow you

1095
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: to take the courageous steps to potentially sue them in

1096
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: small claims core right. It takes that entire shift in mindset,

1097
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,959
Speaker 1: and I just appreciate the perspective that he was able

1098
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: to bring today during this interview. Me and let's shift

1099
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: gears and get to our beer. Today. You and I

1100
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: each enjoyed Fade Away, which is a red corn logger

1101
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: by Cruise Blanca. What your thoughts on this beer? So

1102
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: I'm digging this brewery. I like what they're putting out.

1103
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: This was um like a traditional logger, but with a

1104
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: twist with the corn, with the red corn in there,

1105
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 1: so it has gave it a lot of different flavors.

1106
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: It really did from a traditional logger. I think. I agree.

1107
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: It had like a lot more stuff happening. And I

1108
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: think the biggest thing it had some a nice, little

1109
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: like yeasty sort of funk going onto it, which I

1110
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: really appreciate, almost like a says On. That's I wrote

1111
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: that in my notes. It almost tasted like a like

1112
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: an october Fest says on. It had some of these

1113
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: additional flavors that you would normally get out of a

1114
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: logger like it almost made it even tastes like it

1115
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: was barrel age or wood aged or something like that.

1116
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: But also with it it had this caramel and multi

1117
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: flavor profile going on. I really enjoyed it. This was

1118
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: another one that was donated to the show by Dennis

1119
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: as well as our friends up there at Cruz Blanca.

1120
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: Definitely have enjoyed their beers there out of Chicago. Yeah,

1121
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: most definitely. All Well, that's gonna do it for this episode.

1122
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: For folks who want the show notes including links to

1123
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: what Marshall's up to, including a link to his book,

1124
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: which we highly recommend, you can find those up on

1125
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: our website at how to money dot com. That's right, man,

1126
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: So until next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.