WEBVTT - The Upside of Conflict with Esther Perel

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<v Speaker 1>Hi there, Catherine, Oh, Hey, Chelsea, Hey, Hey, hey jam

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<v Speaker 1>packed a couple of days. I'm in New York City

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<v Speaker 1>today yet again.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I have a jew event that I have to

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<v Speaker 2>go to today. What did I do yesterday?

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<v Speaker 1>I had.

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<v Speaker 2>I had a lot of exciting things happen, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of exciting things. I landed in New York yesterday and

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<v Speaker 2>I saw about sixteen different friends and one fell swoop.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw so many people in one day that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't even get into my hotel room until ten o'clock

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<v Speaker 2>at night for the first time.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I left again. Yeah, and I went on

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<v Speaker 1>a date that was cute.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh and then oh, I went to my knee surgeon

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<v Speaker 2>so he could give me the thumbs up for skiing.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I'm heading to Whistler soon and I'm doing all

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<v Speaker 2>my Canadian dates there, So if you're Canadian, make sure

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<v Speaker 2>you look go to Chelseahandler dot com because I'm coming

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<v Speaker 2>to a city near you over winter. I have all

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<v Speaker 2>my Canadian dates set up from January to March, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very excited about that. And I just announced Australia too.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm coming to Australia, you guys in July. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think I have about five or six shows there anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>But I have this little like thing on my knee

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<v Speaker 2>for my surgery that like, it's not the swelling isn't

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<v Speaker 2>going down on one of the incision sites, so it

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<v Speaker 2>looks almost like a wart. So I went into my

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<v Speaker 2>doctor this morning and I was like, you need to

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<v Speaker 2>fucking cut this off, Like what is this? And he's like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>that looks like fluid. So I went down to have

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<v Speaker 2>them drain in. They're like, that's not fluid, it's like

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<v Speaker 2>scar tissue. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to remove my leg full amputation. I can't

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<v Speaker 2>have this. I'm single, like I'm trying to hook up. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't have a fucking ward on my knee. No,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm probably gonna have to sue him. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>in any lawsuits right now, so I don't see why

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<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't start one.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, you have to have one going at all times, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, my father was very litigious and I picked up

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of that, and the last lawsuit I had

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<v Speaker 2>was I won. That was very satisfying, encouraging. I've been

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<v Speaker 2>in two lawsuits. One was short, little like short Claims

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<v Speaker 2>Court or whatever, Small Claims court, short claims, small Claims Court.

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<v Speaker 2>I sued them once for an outfit they ruined during

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<v Speaker 2>dry cleaning, and I won like one hundred and forty bucks.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like twenty two, So I felt very vindicated

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<v Speaker 2>at that point in my life. And this is my

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<v Speaker 2>second lawsuit and I won that too, and I won

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more than one hundred and forty dollars.

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<v Speaker 3>Well that's fantastic. I mean personally, I wouldn't continue to

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<v Speaker 3>roll the dice if I had like a winning streak

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<v Speaker 3>or two for two, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Know I should probably, Well, the three is a really

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<v Speaker 2>lucky number. That's where I really cash out. Have you

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<v Speaker 2>ever read the book?

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<v Speaker 1>Tomorrow? Tomorrow Tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like literally on my nightstand right now. It almost

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<v Speaker 3>started it this weekend, but I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've been so many people have told me to

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<v Speaker 2>read this book, and I'm reading it and everyone keeps saying, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I go, isn't it about gaming? And they're like, it

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<v Speaker 2>is about gaming, but it's not about gaming. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's all about gaming. The whole book is about gaming.

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<v Speaker 4>See.

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<v Speaker 2>I love that, though, So I'm waiting for the story

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<v Speaker 2>that's not about gaming to happen. But I mean, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>still reading about gaming and it's a slow read for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, you know what everybody has to.

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<v Speaker 2>Watch if they haven't watched American Symphony, they have to

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<v Speaker 2>watch American Symphony.

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<v Speaker 1>But that is fucking amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a documentary on John Fatiste and his wife

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<v Speaker 2>and she wrote that book Between Two Kingdoms.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you read that book, Catherine?

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<v Speaker 5>Uh?

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<v Speaker 3>No, I haven't.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a great book too.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all about her journey of like being sick and

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<v Speaker 2>she was diagnosed with leukemia when she's like twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>and her whole life has just basically been one transplant

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<v Speaker 2>after another or after another after another.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's pretty it's pretty incredible.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know what, Chelsea, I thought of you when

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<v Speaker 3>I read this book. I just finished The Island of

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<v Speaker 3>the Sea Women. It came out a few years ago.

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<v Speaker 3>Have you read this?

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<v Speaker 1>No? I haven't. What is that?

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<v Speaker 3>It is fascinating. It's about this matriarchal society in South

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<v Speaker 3>Korea and these women who dive to go get seafood,

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<v Speaker 3>various different seafoods. And because they're the ones who dive,

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<v Speaker 3>they're the ones with the money and the men stay

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<v Speaker 3>home with the kids. But it is a fascinating history

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<v Speaker 3>of South Korea and about these women, and some of

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<v Speaker 3>them are even still alive and continue to dive to

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<v Speaker 3>this day in modern times. It's fantastic. I will bring

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<v Speaker 3>you my copy next week if you want to read it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would love that you

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<v Speaker 2>would like it. I'd like any society that's all women.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like historical fiction, so it gets very very dramatic.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of shit happens.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>I like historical fiction too. I didn't used to, but

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<v Speaker 2>I've started to warm up to it.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I love history.

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<v Speaker 2>Into one of those older people that just loves history.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't get enough of it. The other day, I

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<v Speaker 2>was looking up you know, like, you know how Pearl

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<v Speaker 2>Harbor kind of was the reason that America ended up

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<v Speaker 2>getting into World War two, but they were having their

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<v Speaker 2>own war, the Pacific War in Japan, but Japan had

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<v Speaker 2>allied with Italy and Germany. Because I was like, my

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<v Speaker 2>friend's like, why was Japan involved in World War Two?

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, I feel like I know the answer

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<v Speaker 2>to this, but I don't, And so I had to

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<v Speaker 2>do a deep dive and so I do love it.

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<v Speaker 1>I do love it. It's something that actually I can

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<v Speaker 1>really focus on as history.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I feel like history is basically just like really good

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<v Speaker 3>gossip about world events. You know, It's stuff that we

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<v Speaker 3>continue to talk about, and it's juicy and it's interesting

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<v Speaker 3>and kind.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, I'm gonna start looking at history as gossip now. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I was hoping that was my one reprieve from gossip

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<v Speaker 2>because that seems to take up a lot of my time.

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<v Speaker 3>Also, especially when you see sixteen friends in one day.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>People fucking love gossiping, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, me too.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So who do we have on deck today? What's

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<v Speaker 1>our story?

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<v Speaker 3>Actually, today we're talking with Esther Perell and she is

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<v Speaker 3>on the line.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, good morning, Esther. How are you?

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<v Speaker 4>Helloilu, I'm friend, how are you?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you this morning.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Catherine, she's our producer.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>There, so exciting. Okay, So, well, everybody knows you. You're

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<v Speaker 2>a very famous psychotherapist who deals with couples, couples therapy,

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<v Speaker 2>sex lives, sex between couples, breakdowns between couples, and you

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<v Speaker 2>are the author of Mating in Captivity, which was a huge,

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<v Speaker 2>huge success, which a lot of people who are listening

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<v Speaker 2>to this podcast have read, as well as the State

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<v Speaker 2>of Affairs. So I know that you are launching a

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<v Speaker 2>course on conflict, which is called Turning Conflict into Connection.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's discuss that conflict and connection.

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<v Speaker 4>Which one are you better at.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really good at conflict. I'm very good at conflict.

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<v Speaker 5>You know what.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, it's very funny you mentioned that because I have

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<v Speaker 2>had trouble making connection in the past few months of

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<v Speaker 2>my life. I thought this would be the time for

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<v Speaker 2>me to be like blossoming and meeting someone. So there

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't been a ton of conflict, but there also hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been a ton of connection.

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<v Speaker 4>What kind of conflict person are you? What's your style style?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I've been in therapy, so I've nipped my you know,

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<v Speaker 2>my shortcomings in the buds, so to speak. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>as crazy or scary, I should say, as I used

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<v Speaker 2>to be.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm much more, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>But I didn't do any tame tame, and I understand

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<v Speaker 2>how to speak about things, and I understand that defensiveness

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<v Speaker 2>is not really a winning argument, you know. But yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I've experienced conflicts in my relationships as everybody has. And

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like I've gotten much better at resolving conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>But you need two participants that are very good at

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<v Speaker 2>resolving conflict, is what I've learned.

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<v Speaker 4>I think the first thing you said that I want

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<v Speaker 4>to highlight is that conflict is intrinsic to relationships. It's

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<v Speaker 4>not that this is part and parcel of it. We disagree,

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<v Speaker 4>we argue, we fight, and sometimes conflict is actually very

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<v Speaker 4>helpful to be dressed wrong, to create a different level

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<v Speaker 4>of engagement, to feel more emboldened, to ask for what

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<v Speaker 4>one wants. I mean, there's a lot of good juice

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<v Speaker 4>in conflict, but then there is also a whole other

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<v Speaker 4>way that people sometimes get trapped into their arguments and

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<v Speaker 4>they're bickering, and there's a range. Right, conflict is a

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<v Speaker 4>word that's like an umbrella underneath it, there are multiple

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<v Speaker 4>tentacles of how we fight. We disagree, we argue, we bicker,

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<v Speaker 4>we do slow you know, low intensity warfare or high

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<v Speaker 4>intensity warfare. But generally what people want is how do

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<v Speaker 4>we fight better? But this doesn't mean resolve things, but

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<v Speaker 4>it's how do we not devolve? How do we not

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<v Speaker 4>fall prey to the traps and the defeating strategies that

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<v Speaker 4>we often have when we fight, Like how do we

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<v Speaker 4>not bring up everything in the relationship all at once

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<v Speaker 4>when we are arguing about one thing. How do we

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<v Speaker 4>not go totalistic and it becomes you always and you never?

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<v Speaker 4>How do we, you know, take responsibility and not feel

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<v Speaker 4>like if I give in an inch, I lost my

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<v Speaker 4>whole sense of pride and my whole identity. How do

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<v Speaker 4>we decide what's wise not to say even if we

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<v Speaker 4>are right that there's a difference between being right and

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<v Speaker 4>being wise. It's all of that. And in these days

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<v Speaker 4>especially where we often have become quite conflict avoidant, it's

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<v Speaker 4>like I don't want to talk to you, I don't

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<v Speaker 4>want I have not we disagree, therefore you're out of

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<v Speaker 4>my life kind of thing. We really could use sharpening

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<v Speaker 4>our social skills for how to be together to deal

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<v Speaker 4>with fighting is not about fighting, it's about actually how

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<v Speaker 4>to relate and how to connect.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously, the biggest roadblock for relationships is communication, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean that's pretty much all roads lead to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you agree with that or what do you think?

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<v Speaker 4>I think that communication is a word that we often

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<v Speaker 4>use to say, how do I tell you what I

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<v Speaker 4>need think feel. How do I get through to you?

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<v Speaker 4>How I get you to acquiesce with me? How do

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<v Speaker 4>I get you to understand me, to validate me, to

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<v Speaker 4>relate to me. It's okay. It's the buzzwords under which

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<v Speaker 4>a lot is subsumed, which is fine. I prefer to

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<v Speaker 4>think about relating. You know, I asked a question recently

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<v Speaker 4>that became very It's the favorite of mine for the

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<v Speaker 4>last two weeks. You know, you get a question and

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<v Speaker 4>you tried out in many spaces. Did you grow up

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<v Speaker 4>playing freely on the street? I did, Yes, an enormous

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<v Speaker 4>amount of people no longer do that. And what you

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<v Speaker 4>got when you played freely on the street, and I

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<v Speaker 4>asked this in four different countries where I've been touring,

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<v Speaker 4>is that you had unscripted, unmonitored, unchoreographed social interaction. You

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<v Speaker 4>practiced social negotiation. You played, you fought, you made rules,

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<v Speaker 4>you broke rules, you competed, you were jealous, you made friends.

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<v Speaker 4>This whole thing allowed you to learn how to relate

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<v Speaker 4>and to develop social skills. When we say we don't communicate,

0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:17.000
<v Speaker 4>it's not true. We communicate all the time. We communicate

0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.600
<v Speaker 4>with silence, we communicate with lift, eyebrows. We communicate with smirks,

0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.720
<v Speaker 4>We communicate with moving our head away. We communicate by

0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.760
<v Speaker 4>arguing back. We communicate. We're just not communicating in a

0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:34.200
<v Speaker 4>way that connects us. So when people say we don't communicate,

0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.640
<v Speaker 4>what they're saying is we're not connecting. We're fighting. We

0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:43.440
<v Speaker 4>are a part. We are experiencing each other as enemies.

0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.199
<v Speaker 4>We are saying things as if we don't care about

0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.360
<v Speaker 4>the person that we're saying it to, when in fact

0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.920
<v Speaker 4>it's the person that we need for their life. We

0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:58.760
<v Speaker 4>communicate non stop, but some of our communication creates productive interactions,

0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.840
<v Speaker 4>and some of our commun udication is destructive or defeating

0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:04.839
<v Speaker 4>or disrupting.

0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.520
<v Speaker 2>So in the course you talk about that, you talk

0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:12.240
<v Speaker 2>about constructive versus destructive conflict. So can you give us

0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:13.400
<v Speaker 2>an example.

0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:13.480
<v Speaker 1>Of the two?

0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:19.080
<v Speaker 4>Which one shall? I start with the negative, because we

0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:24.280
<v Speaker 4>are very, very creative in our negative ways of how

0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.800
<v Speaker 4>we fight. I mean, here are sure bets to torpedo

0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:33.120
<v Speaker 4>your relationship, to undermine it. Right, So we just went

0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.080
<v Speaker 4>through one. I'll just name it. It's called kitchen sinking.

0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:36.400
<v Speaker 6>Right.

0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.120
<v Speaker 4>We're arguing about whatever you didn't water the plants or

0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.640
<v Speaker 4>I asked you to do something and you didn't do it,

0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.800
<v Speaker 4>or I forgot one more time, you know whatever. But

0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.160
<v Speaker 4>in the course of this argument, we are putting in

0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.880
<v Speaker 4>ten years of a relationship, and we put pile up

0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.960
<v Speaker 4>all the dirty dishes, and in fact, you can't wash

0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.920
<v Speaker 4>a single dish when you've got them all piled up

0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:01.160
<v Speaker 4>on top of each other. Or I disqualify everything you say.

0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.199
<v Speaker 4>You can give me ten things, and all these things

0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.400
<v Speaker 4>I actually have no problem with, but I'll argue with

0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.480
<v Speaker 4>the one thing that I have that I can disagree

0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.800
<v Speaker 4>with you on, you know, like seriously, that becomes really

0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:19.559
<v Speaker 4>of biblical proportion, you know, basically looking for evidence that

0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.880
<v Speaker 4>reinforces my belief. I fundamentally think you don't care about me,

0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.320
<v Speaker 4>and everything that I bring up are proofs that I

0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.280
<v Speaker 4>am right, even if it's the thing I want to

0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.199
<v Speaker 4>feel the least. I mean, the last thing I want

0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.240
<v Speaker 4>to believe is that you don't care about me. But

0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.920
<v Speaker 4>I'm going to prove you that you don't care about me,

0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.439
<v Speaker 4>and it's so twisted. I'm also going to, of course

0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.240
<v Speaker 4>think that when I was late, it's because there was traffic,

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.800
<v Speaker 4>you know, but when you are late, it's because you

0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:52.520
<v Speaker 4>are really not attentive and not responsible. Mine is circumstantial,

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.920
<v Speaker 4>yours is characterological. Those are some of the you know,

0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.960
<v Speaker 4>the classic negatives we escalate. I say something, you bring

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 4>up something else that is bigger than mine, and then

0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 4>I say, yeah, you really want to talk about it.

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.840
<v Speaker 4>Let me remind you this one, you know. And in

0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:12.280
<v Speaker 4>the end we've both completely polarized and lonely in our corners,

0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 4>and you know, where's the relationship? But it's productive. It's

0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 4>I'm really pissed, you know, and I want to tell

0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.640
<v Speaker 4>you why, and you tell it, and you don't, and

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.200
<v Speaker 4>you don't go cursing the person, and you don't go

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.800
<v Speaker 4>you always, you never, you know, and you go to

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.560
<v Speaker 4>totalistic in your categorical thinking. You stick to the point

0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 4>you put. You express your anger, you're discontent, your disbelief,

0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.920
<v Speaker 4>you're even you know, your fury doesn't matter, it's okay.

0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.080
<v Speaker 4>And then you say what you have to say, and

0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 4>now you shut up and you listen for a minute,

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.400
<v Speaker 4>and hopefully on the other side there's someone who either says,

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 4>I get it while you're so pissed, or it's really

0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:53.760
<v Speaker 4>hard for me to hear how pissed you are, because

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.480
<v Speaker 4>it was really not my intention. That's absolutely not what

0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.680
<v Speaker 4>I thought about this, or you have a point, this

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:06.240
<v Speaker 4>is true. A person earlier today says to me and

0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:08.880
<v Speaker 4>he says, you know, I really want to I want

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.439
<v Speaker 4>us to be close. I want us to do things.

0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 4>I want us to go out, I want to say,

0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.079
<v Speaker 4>And then she says, he says, you're not there. You're

0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 4>not there. And then she says, give me an example.

0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.480
<v Speaker 4>That's like the killer one. Give me an example, because

0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.120
<v Speaker 4>the first thing you're going to do with the example

0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 4>is shut it down, right. So he gives examples, and

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 4>so of course she argues with every example, and she

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.480
<v Speaker 4>tries to say and basically he says, but you're there

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.720
<v Speaker 4>for all your friends, you know, and you're just not there.

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 4>And basically I said to her, it's like, but you

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.880
<v Speaker 4>agree with him, Why don't you just tell him you're right?

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.800
<v Speaker 4>For some reason, I have an energy for my friends

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 4>I don't have for you. And I'm sorry, I get

0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.120
<v Speaker 4>it why it's upsetting to you, And honestly it's upsetting

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.680
<v Speaker 4>to me too, because I actually don't understand why I

0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 4>have zero energy to bring into our relationship. That makes

0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.440
<v Speaker 4>a conversation very short. Rather than arguing with every example

0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.720
<v Speaker 4>that he gave to prove to him that he shouldn't

0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.400
<v Speaker 4>feel lonely because she's really present, she's not.

0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 2>But so, then what's the next step when somebody like

0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.400
<v Speaker 2>admits something like that, like, you're right, I don't have

0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.800
<v Speaker 2>the energy for you that I have for my girlfriends,

0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.000
<v Speaker 2>then what And I.

0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 4>Don't know why, And I completely can see why that's

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.400
<v Speaker 4>upsetting to you, And you know what, it's upsetting to

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.200
<v Speaker 4>me too because I don't understand it and I don't

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.920
<v Speaker 4>like it, and I don't know what to do about it.

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.280
<v Speaker 4>But I'm gonna take I'm gonna take it seriously. I'm sorry.

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.520
<v Speaker 4>So that's the beginning, Is you acknowledge a shared reality,

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 4>then then what? Then you often go from the anger

0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 4>to the sadness, to the longing to the yearning to the.

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Loss, which is a nicer place to be to start

0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:47.120
<v Speaker 2>a conversation. Absolutely well, okay, so talk about explosives versus implosives.

0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:53.720
<v Speaker 4>So imagine explosives. Is I'm one, you know, when I

0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 4>get in there, my volume goes up, you know, and

0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 4>if you don't answer, my value goes my volume goes

0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.000
<v Speaker 4>up a little more, you know. And I'm living with

0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 4>someone who the higher I go, the quieter they go.

0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 4>And they think that because they're quiet at some point,

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.560
<v Speaker 4>you know, quite people sometimes thinks if I don't say anything,

0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.840
<v Speaker 4>at some point, she will stop. But of course she

0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:22.160
<v Speaker 4>or whoever that person is, doesn't necessarily stop, because if

0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 4>you don't answer, then I feel like I'm talking to

0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.280
<v Speaker 4>the wind. And then I just become more and more

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.040
<v Speaker 4>vociferous because there is no container. Whereas if you just

0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 4>said to me, I get it, I hear you something,

0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.680
<v Speaker 4>then I know my point has crossed the bridge and

0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 4>has arrived on the other side of the river. You know.

0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.920
<v Speaker 4>So what you have is people who are fighters, people

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.520
<v Speaker 4>who are more into flight, and sometimes you have a

0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 4>dynamic where you have one fight, one flight, and it

0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.400
<v Speaker 4>goes like this. So there's three primary choreographies. These are

0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 4>just ways of organizing what we see and so that

0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.760
<v Speaker 4>we can enter. You know, it's like, what's the theater

0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 4>of this argument? How do these people? How do these

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.119
<v Speaker 4>people get stuck? What do they say and what do

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.119
<v Speaker 4>they do to each other? And whether are they not

0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.440
<v Speaker 4>saying or doing that would make it better for them

0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.440
<v Speaker 4>when they go into this cycle of conflict?

0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.800
<v Speaker 2>And do do you meet with people a lot where

0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:22.919
<v Speaker 2>you feel like this must have happened. I don't know

0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 2>if this is a frequent thing where you feel like

0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.520
<v Speaker 2>one of the partners is just unable to do the

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 2>work or to be able to hear the other person,

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.919
<v Speaker 2>and that you found the situation hopeless, or do you

0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.400
<v Speaker 2>feel like there's always a kernel of something you can

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 2>deliver to them to help them engage.

0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.840
<v Speaker 4>I'll do my best, and sometimes I think not yet

0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.200
<v Speaker 4>or not today. You know, I'm thinking of an episode

0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.480
<v Speaker 4>in the podcast, and where should we begin? Where they

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.760
<v Speaker 4>have vicious fights, so they both explode. When she asks

0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.960
<v Speaker 4>him to do something, he instantly hears his dad giving

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 4>him orders. When he doesn't do what she asks, she

0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.040
<v Speaker 4>instantly experiences once again, I'm going to be all alone.

0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.879
<v Speaker 4>I took care of everybody in my family growing up,

0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.680
<v Speaker 4>and this puts me right back there again. It's all

0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.320
<v Speaker 4>on me. And so the first thing you do that

0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.520
<v Speaker 4>you hope people can transition with you is instead of

0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 4>what is it that you're fighting about like the cat

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.000
<v Speaker 4>litter in their case, it's what is it that you're

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.679
<v Speaker 4>fighting for, which in her case is I'm fighting not

0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.880
<v Speaker 4>to be all alone? In his case, is I'm fighting

0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.879
<v Speaker 4>not to be dismissed by my father. I was going

0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.399
<v Speaker 4>to put an adjective, but I want. And what I

0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.760
<v Speaker 4>ended up doing with them, which was really, you know,

0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.399
<v Speaker 4>you try anything you can when you've got this crescendo going.

0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.000
<v Speaker 4>I just said, at one point, can I just ask

0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.359
<v Speaker 4>you something? Would you please both life flat on the

0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:56.120
<v Speaker 4>floor and continue the argument. Now, there's something about when

0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.160
<v Speaker 4>we fight, we like we are mammals. We are upright,

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.200
<v Speaker 4>our shoulders go up, our neck goes in, our clothes

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 4>come out, you know. But if you lie flat on

0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.320
<v Speaker 4>the floor, it's kind of hard to continue. So you

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.239
<v Speaker 4>go into the body. You try through the instrument of

0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:14.480
<v Speaker 4>the body to say, you know, let's let's see if

0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 4>I can get you unglued from these inevitable corners where

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:24.000
<v Speaker 4>you find yourself. On occasion, somebody says I'm not lying down,

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 4>or this is ridiculous, or what's that going to do?

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.040
<v Speaker 4>Or why shall I? Or why me? You know why

0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.080
<v Speaker 4>you keep pointing your finger at me? And then you

0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 4>come back the next time and you say, this is

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.119
<v Speaker 4>not about pointing a finger at you, because but you

0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.359
<v Speaker 4>don't want to live like this, you wouldn't be here.

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:45.600
<v Speaker 4>Of course, I understand coupos therapy is sometimes a drop

0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.240
<v Speaker 4>off center, right, you bring your partner to get fixed,

0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:50.280
<v Speaker 4>and you say and you say, I'm an expert and

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:51.720
<v Speaker 4>I can help you if.

0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.520
<v Speaker 1>You need Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 2>It's like I've been a therapy, let me show you

0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.919
<v Speaker 2>the way exactly. It never works either. Okay, we're going

0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to take a quick break and then we're going to

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.760
<v Speaker 2>come back and take some callers.

0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:09.160
<v Speaker 1>And we're back.

0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.000
<v Speaker 2>I was just thinking about the pressure it must. I mean,

0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.840
<v Speaker 2>obviously this is your chosen career and you're very successful

0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>at it, but the pressure that you must feel with

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.320
<v Speaker 2>couples coming in because I know I've been a couples

0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.400
<v Speaker 2>therapy and I was like, all right, it's on you.

0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.840
<v Speaker 2>If you can save this relationship, great, but this is

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.680
<v Speaker 2>your responsibility now. I mean, the pressure you must feel

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:32.000
<v Speaker 2>must be immense.

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.399
<v Speaker 4>So the first thing I want to tell you, Chelsea

0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.160
<v Speaker 4>is I've met you before, like I know this entrance

0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.560
<v Speaker 4>point and my typical The first thought that comes to

0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.360
<v Speaker 4>mind is I cannot want this more than you need

0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.040
<v Speaker 4>to want it yourself, because it's not my relationship. I

0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.280
<v Speaker 4>cannot take this song where I care more about what's

0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.040
<v Speaker 4>going to happen to the two of you than you.

0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:59.480
<v Speaker 4>So I care a ton, but I am disempowered. If

0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.679
<v Speaker 4>I care more than the person whose own relationship is

0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:07.959
<v Speaker 4>at stake, I feel a tremendousness of responsibility. I also

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 4>think that often people come past do date, and you know,

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 4>it depends what good will is left, how much people

0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 4>really want this to change. If they just want to

0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.960
<v Speaker 4>be right, then there's a good chance that they will

0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:23.840
<v Speaker 4>be right and alone right.

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.560
<v Speaker 3>And from there let's transition into colors.

0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:28.880
<v Speaker 1>Our first question is not.

0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.600
<v Speaker 3>Really about conflict, but Crystal is our email center today.

0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.160
<v Speaker 3>Dear Chelsea. When I was thirty seven, I was diagnosed

0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.760
<v Speaker 3>with breast cancer and had to go through it, all

0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.879
<v Speaker 3>of it all at once, freezing my eggs, double mistectomy,

0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 3>and chemo. Two years later and I'm on the other

0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.639
<v Speaker 3>side of it, cancer free and finally feeling ready to

0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:51.240
<v Speaker 3>date and have sex again. Here's the thing. I had

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.040
<v Speaker 3>reconstructive surgery shortly after I was diagnosed. My new boobs

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.800
<v Speaker 3>look perfectly fine. They aren't in ten and two positions

0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 3>or anything, but they're pretty hard and they are spots.

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.959
<v Speaker 3>I can feel the crinkle of the implants. When I

0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:04.760
<v Speaker 3>asked my surgeon if they were ever going to feel

0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.359
<v Speaker 3>any better, She explained, They're never going to fully feel

0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.480
<v Speaker 3>like real boobs since my milk ducks and fat toooshore

0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.960
<v Speaker 3>are gone, it's just the bags in there. It was

0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:14.359
<v Speaker 3>upsetting to wrap my heat around, but it is what

0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.639
<v Speaker 3>it is. I guess I should be thankful that I

0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.320
<v Speaker 3>still have my nipples. Here are my questions now that

0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm about to start dating again. Should I tell a

0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:24.120
<v Speaker 3>guy about my boobs if I want to have sex

0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.440
<v Speaker 3>with him? Do I not say anything? Because it's a heavy,

0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:29.840
<v Speaker 3>awkward conversation and frankly a turn off. If I don't

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.560
<v Speaker 3>say anything, I'm worried I'll be super self conscious during

0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.040
<v Speaker 3>sex and be caught up studying his reaction. Also, how

0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.680
<v Speaker 3>do I mentally prepare myself in case some guy says

0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.520
<v Speaker 3>something insensitive or has a less than desirable reaction? How

0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:45.720
<v Speaker 3>do I reframe this very deep insecurity for myself? Thanks

0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:47.000
<v Speaker 3>for all you do, Crystal.

0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Esther, why don't you go first? Since you're the professional,

0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.159
<v Speaker 2>So I'll just tell you what came up for me

0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.760
<v Speaker 2>as I'm listening to you, Crystal, is that you are

0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:01.960
<v Speaker 2>a thirty six near old woman who has just gone

0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:07.320
<v Speaker 2>through a huge experience, and you have gone through something

0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 2>that most of us do not know, and you're coming

0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:12.679
<v Speaker 2>out on the other side, and you want to re

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 2>engage with life, and you want to reconnect with the

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.840
<v Speaker 2>erotic force inside of you, and that is absolutely beautiful.

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:23.840
<v Speaker 2>And you are a woman with a whole body and

0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.919
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of other organs, and your biggest organ is

0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 2>your skin, and you're focusing on one thing, your boobs.

0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:35.880
<v Speaker 2>If you had her piece, it would be a different story.

0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:38.560
<v Speaker 2>It would affect the other person. In this case, this

0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:39.159
<v Speaker 2>is yours.

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:41.840
<v Speaker 4>And as you get to know the person you're dating,

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:44.679
<v Speaker 4>at some point you'd start to talk about what have

0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.879
<v Speaker 4>been some important experiences in your life, and you'll probably

0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 4>end up talking about, I had cancer very young, and

0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:53.880
<v Speaker 4>this is what happened to me, and part of that

0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.200
<v Speaker 4>you know, and how do you feel today? Well, one

0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.280
<v Speaker 4>thing that I have is this, but I am alive

0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.760
<v Speaker 4>and I am healthy, and all of that proceeds, and

0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.679
<v Speaker 4>that's where you will draw your sense of strength and

0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:10.439
<v Speaker 4>your resilience and your confidence rather than just focusing on

0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.639
<v Speaker 4>the insecurity may not necessarily be a turn off. You

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.040
<v Speaker 4>don't know if you mind somebody, for whom you know

0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.639
<v Speaker 4>your breast are their fati ish short while, but bring

0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.800
<v Speaker 4>the rest of who you are to the experience, and

0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.359
<v Speaker 4>at some point when you feel more comfortable, when you

0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.640
<v Speaker 4>feel a little more trusting, when you've heard a little

0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.720
<v Speaker 4>bit of the reactions about other things, then you just say

0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:36.199
<v Speaker 4>and then you ask how does that information land on

0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:40.120
<v Speaker 4>you? You know, lead it, don't be too scared. And most

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.080
<v Speaker 4>of the time the people won't know what to say.

0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:45.399
<v Speaker 4>So if you hold the conversation and you lead it

0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:49.520
<v Speaker 4>with confidence, you will feel so empowered. Actually, what is

0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 4>it like for you that this is a situation? Is

0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:55.680
<v Speaker 4>that even important to you? You can be a wonderful

0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:59.600
<v Speaker 4>lover regardless of what happens to your breasts. And that's

0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:02.679
<v Speaker 4>what we matters is what you end up experiencing together

0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:06.040
<v Speaker 4>with this person. If they end up focusing just on that,

0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:07.760
<v Speaker 4>you probably have the wrong address.

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And also I would like to say additionally, there

0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:13.480
<v Speaker 2>are so many things as a woman that I get

0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.160
<v Speaker 2>turned off by from men if I'm on a date

0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:18.840
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and when you really like someone, that all

0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:21.879
<v Speaker 2>flies away. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know, every woman

0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:24.560
<v Speaker 2>has something they're insecure about. Anyway, You're just focusing on

0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:27.320
<v Speaker 2>that because that is your issue right now. But what

0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, what Esther said is so much more important

0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.639
<v Speaker 2>and valuable. You're alive, you're healthy, you're ready to mingle.

0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:35.119
<v Speaker 2>You want to have some action, Like you want to

0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:37.680
<v Speaker 2>be in love and be in a relationship. That's more

0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:40.320
<v Speaker 2>important than a couple of lumps or bumps or whatever.

0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:42.879
<v Speaker 2>You feel like, is it perfect about your breast? Every

0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.040
<v Speaker 2>woman has a body part that they're not happy about,

0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:47.239
<v Speaker 2>you know. Eventually you just have to get over it

0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:49.480
<v Speaker 2>and realize what your attributes are or what the best

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.159
<v Speaker 2>things about you are that you love, you know, and

0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:53.480
<v Speaker 2>then that comes across too.

0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:55.679
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, get out there, sister.

0:25:56.720 --> 0:25:59.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think you know, Sarah, I'm so glad

0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:00.920
<v Speaker 3>you brought up like that. Might be somebody who's like

0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:03.359
<v Speaker 3>a fetish or you know, some guys are like that's

0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:05.199
<v Speaker 3>what they love. They love fake boobs, so they're like

0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:06.160
<v Speaker 3>very into that.

0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Or they might be an ass man who knows, Yeah,

0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:10.840
<v Speaker 2>they might not care about boobs at all. So it's

0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.560
<v Speaker 2>like you're worrying about something that you're creating a worry

0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:15.760
<v Speaker 2>that you don't have to. You know, you go out

0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 2>there and just and be your lovely, beautiful self. Everybody

0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:22.080
<v Speaker 2>has a little thing that they don't like, so you're

0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:24.359
<v Speaker 2>not alone in that. And the more important thing is

0:26:24.400 --> 0:26:27.240
<v Speaker 2>that you're healthy and you're able to go on dates.

0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:30.040
<v Speaker 4>I think the concern is real, you know. I think

0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:33.280
<v Speaker 4>I understand the question, and I really appreciate you asking

0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 4>the question because you're just coming out and there is

0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:38.480
<v Speaker 4>this kind of you know, who am I now? And

0:26:38.520 --> 0:26:40.359
<v Speaker 4>there is a sense that this is not the body

0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.800
<v Speaker 4>that you knew. But you will find yourself more at

0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:46.800
<v Speaker 4>ease inside your own skin as you did people and

0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:50.399
<v Speaker 4>hopefully you did mature people for whom what matters is

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:52.840
<v Speaker 4>what is created between the two of you, not what

0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:53.760
<v Speaker 4>hangs on you.

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:57.880
<v Speaker 3>What would you say is the right sort of timing

0:26:58.040 --> 0:26:59.000
<v Speaker 3>to bring this up?

0:26:59.160 --> 0:26:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Is it?

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:01.879
<v Speaker 3>You know, obviously it's not while you're like walking in

0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.840
<v Speaker 3>the front door making out, but you know, is it

0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:07.439
<v Speaker 3>early on? Is that after you've kind of gotten to

0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 3>know the person? Is it maybe after you've even had

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:10.280
<v Speaker 3>sex ones?

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.920
<v Speaker 4>You know, I don't think there's a rule on these things,

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.280
<v Speaker 4>but I think that what you want is a broader conversation.

0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.560
<v Speaker 4>The conversation is, you know, it can be Have you

0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:24.760
<v Speaker 4>ever had transformative experiences. Have ever been close to death?

0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:29.240
<v Speaker 4>Have you ever felt physically vulnerable? Have you known fear?

0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:32.720
<v Speaker 4>Have you know? You know, there's other questions that are

0:27:32.760 --> 0:27:36.199
<v Speaker 4>broad questions, and then you bring that question to you

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:40.040
<v Speaker 4>and you say, actually, yes, I once was diagnosed with cancer.

0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:42.520
<v Speaker 4>And so that's how it's brought in. It's not like

0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:45.960
<v Speaker 4>this is part of your CV, you know, and you

0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.199
<v Speaker 4>have to share this as your data. You know, this

0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:52.000
<v Speaker 4>is not data. This is stuff that grows out of

0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:55.119
<v Speaker 4>exploration and discovery of two people who get to know

0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:58.639
<v Speaker 4>each other. And you may find that, you know, you

0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:02.399
<v Speaker 4>have no idea what people bring, what the experiences people have.

0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:05.480
<v Speaker 4>You know, they may not have had cancer themselves, but

0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:07.960
<v Speaker 4>there's a good chance that they know somebody who died

0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:10.919
<v Speaker 4>of it or who had it or survived it, or

0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:14.600
<v Speaker 4>you know. So it's that conversation. It has to do

0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:18.119
<v Speaker 4>with trust, it has to do with context. This was

0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:21.080
<v Speaker 4>a good moment to say it. They don't say it

0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:24.560
<v Speaker 4>when you naked, I actually would not. Don't say it

0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:27.960
<v Speaker 4>while you're walking together and you know, in your in motion,

0:28:28.200 --> 0:28:31.680
<v Speaker 4>so that the stress can also kind of evacuate through

0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:34.399
<v Speaker 4>the through the body, and don't bring it as I

0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:37.600
<v Speaker 4>have a secret to tell you. This is not a secret,

0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:40.160
<v Speaker 4>and it's not a piece of data. You don't owe anything.

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:43.800
<v Speaker 4>This is as we're getting to know each other, one

0:28:43.840 --> 0:28:45.760
<v Speaker 4>of the important things to know about me is this

0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:48.600
<v Speaker 4>experience that I had, as I have had other very

0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:52.240
<v Speaker 4>important experiences, but maybe this one has shaped me even

0:28:52.240 --> 0:28:55.000
<v Speaker 4>more than anything else. And in the course of that

0:28:55.160 --> 0:28:58.480
<v Speaker 4>experience you talk about you know, actually one of the

0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:00.680
<v Speaker 4>things that has stayed with me is that I had

0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:03.840
<v Speaker 4>to have reconstructive surgery. And you don't say is that

0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:06.280
<v Speaker 4>okay with you? You just sis, that's the part. It's

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 4>a piece of my life that's.

0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Not okay with you.

0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Awesome wheur next question comes from Sammy. She is thirty six.

0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:19.040
<v Speaker 3>Dear Chelsea. Last year, three days before I moved in

0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:21.800
<v Speaker 3>with my sister, her husband informed me that they now

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.040
<v Speaker 3>have an open marriage and my sister is dating a

0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:26.880
<v Speaker 3>twenty two year old gal. Needless to say, I was

0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:30.000
<v Speaker 3>a little shocked and put off by the situation. Polyamory

0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:32.160
<v Speaker 3>in general doesn't bother me, but my sister and her

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:35.680
<v Speaker 3>husband already don't have the strongest marriage. Bringing in this

0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 3>third person has proven nothing more than the catastrophe you'd

0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:42.160
<v Speaker 3>imagine On top of that, they tend to be so

0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:45.240
<v Speaker 3>wrapped up in the relationship they completely forget they have children.

0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:47.680
<v Speaker 3>I hear several times a week from both of them,

0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 3>I need to spend more time with the kids, but

0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:52.920
<v Speaker 3>this is never done. In fact, they spend more time

0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 3>fighting about their situation than anything. Then they make up

0:29:55.800 --> 0:29:58.040
<v Speaker 3>and watch Big Love or Sister Wives and pretend they

0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:01.280
<v Speaker 3>have this perfect union. A few months later, the girl

0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:05.160
<v Speaker 3>moved into the house. She isn't working or going to school.

0:30:05.680 --> 0:30:07.480
<v Speaker 3>My sister and brother in law have added her to

0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 3>their bank accounts now and their will and as an

0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:14.200
<v Speaker 3>emergency contact for kids at the school, literally leaving me

0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:16.240
<v Speaker 3>to be nothing but a babysitter when they want to

0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:19.120
<v Speaker 3>do things as a threatle They've basically made me the

0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:23.600
<v Speaker 3>enforcer of rules, chores, etc. Furthermore, I pay rent to

0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:27.000
<v Speaker 3>live here, and the paramour does not big surprise. I know.

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:29.960
<v Speaker 3>I went from being the cool aunt to the mean aunt,

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:31.920
<v Speaker 3>and all I want is for my nieces and nephews

0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:33.760
<v Speaker 3>to give me the same love and respect they give

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:36.880
<v Speaker 3>their other aunts and uncles. I love my sister and

0:30:36.920 --> 0:30:39.239
<v Speaker 3>the kids, but this whole situation is nothing more than

0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:41.840
<v Speaker 3>a disaster. Waiting to blow up bigger than it already is.

0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:44.160
<v Speaker 3>I'll eventually move out of the house. I told my

0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:46.240
<v Speaker 3>sister when I moved in, i'd stay for two years

0:30:46.240 --> 0:30:48.680
<v Speaker 3>to help with the mortgage, etc. And I plan to

0:30:48.760 --> 0:30:50.440
<v Speaker 3>keep my word on that. But what can I do

0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 3>in the meantime? Love and respect, Sammy.

0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:57.320
<v Speaker 5>Hi, sam Hi, Thank you so much for having me.

0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:01.720
<v Speaker 1>What a hot mess of a situation your Oh no.

0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:03.240
<v Speaker 5>Not understatement of the year.

0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. Okay, Astair, you go first. I'm dying

0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:08.480
<v Speaker 2>to hear what you have to say about this.

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:16.560
<v Speaker 4>What are you doing there? Seriously? I mean, I offered

0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 4>to pay for the mortgage, and I'm going to keep

0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:20.840
<v Speaker 4>my commitment. I mean, what where is your life?

0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 5>I was in a place where, you know, I was

0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:28.440
<v Speaker 5>struggling on my own, so I was happy to come

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:32.120
<v Speaker 5>help my sister out with her family, and I had

0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:33.880
<v Speaker 5>a place to stay in a reof over my head.

0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:35.720
<v Speaker 5>But I wasn't expecting all of it.

0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:40.320
<v Speaker 4>Okay, but now things have changed, so you may have

0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:43.360
<v Speaker 4>had very good reasons for why you chose to do

0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:47.120
<v Speaker 4>this back then. This is absolutely not a judgment, but

0:31:47.320 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 4>now it's like, why what are you doing there? Why

0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:53.480
<v Speaker 4>are you doing this, Let them be, let them swim

0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:57.160
<v Speaker 4>in their own messes, and be available to the kids

0:31:57.200 --> 0:32:00.360
<v Speaker 4>if you want to and have a life of your own.

0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 4>You're absorbing this whole drama that isn't yours and that

0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:09.840
<v Speaker 4>doesn't need a fight, that just needs simply I think

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:12.120
<v Speaker 4>that at this moment, your life's have evolved in a

0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:17.240
<v Speaker 4>certain way and I need to retreat and kind of

0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:20.000
<v Speaker 4>resume my own track. What's standing in the way of

0:32:20.080 --> 0:32:20.920
<v Speaker 4>your doing.

0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:25.480
<v Speaker 5>That currently finances, I'm working on paying some stuff back,

0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:28.880
<v Speaker 5>some loans back, So as soon as that is all

0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:31.720
<v Speaker 5>taking care of, my goal is to run as fast

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:32.240
<v Speaker 5>as I can.

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.840
<v Speaker 4>And you're paying rent, right, So can you pay that

0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:37.000
<v Speaker 4>rent to somebody else?

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:40.840
<v Speaker 5>Yes, but probably not as nice of the rent that

0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:43.120
<v Speaker 5>I'm paying now. I'm still paying rent, but it's still

0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:45.840
<v Speaker 5>significantly less than my own place, for sure.

0:32:45.880 --> 0:32:48.320
<v Speaker 4>You know. But is there somebody else? Can you rent

0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 4>a room in someone else's big house?

0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:51.400
<v Speaker 1>Possibly?

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:54.680
<v Speaker 5>I mean I've looked. I'm on you know, Facebook, sites

0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 5>with renting rooms and that kind of stuff, and I've

0:32:57.680 --> 0:33:01.240
<v Speaker 5>been reaching out and inquire. But a lot of it

0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:03.240
<v Speaker 5>is I have a dog and a cat, and a

0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:06.200
<v Speaker 5>lot of people don't allow pats. So that's kind of

0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:08.720
<v Speaker 5>a little bit of a wall too. So I'm I'm

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:11.280
<v Speaker 5>actively working on it, and I have you know, friends

0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:13.280
<v Speaker 5>that are looking and helping me as well.

0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:16.600
<v Speaker 4>But I think that that's the primary You know, this

0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:18.800
<v Speaker 4>is not about what do you tell your sister, what

0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:21.720
<v Speaker 4>do you tell the other woman? What you tell you know,

0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 4>it's really challenging when you are in the midst of

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:29.920
<v Speaker 4>another family and you see things that hurt other people

0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:33.080
<v Speaker 4>and therefore hurt you. So you watch the little Smurfs

0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:37.400
<v Speaker 4>and you say, I feel for them. Nobody's attending to them.

0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:40.960
<v Speaker 4>I have to be here, but nobody appreciates what I do,

0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:44.160
<v Speaker 4>so here I am. So I'm in a bind because

0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:46.960
<v Speaker 4>I want to attend to them. But it's but you know,

0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:52.040
<v Speaker 4>what did you call it? The hired maid? And you

0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:56.240
<v Speaker 4>know you'll continue your relationship with them, but you don't

0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:59.240
<v Speaker 4>want to be in a situation where you taught you

0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:02.160
<v Speaker 4>were becoming coming in as a special person, as the

0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:05.840
<v Speaker 4>sister of as this family member, as the savior of

0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:09.000
<v Speaker 4>the day. So this is what's happened, is that you

0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:12.239
<v Speaker 4>feel devalued and you feel like you lost you know,

0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:15.360
<v Speaker 4>you have zero status and you feel taken for granted

0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:21.080
<v Speaker 4>and you feel underappreciated, and this whole scenario it won't

0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:24.040
<v Speaker 4>change necessarily. You can have a conversation and just say

0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:27.319
<v Speaker 4>here's what I'm is going on, and then they may

0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:29.359
<v Speaker 4>either say, yes, this is true, or they may say

0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:32.160
<v Speaker 4>you're oversensitive. You know, you're making a big deal out

0:34:32.160 --> 0:34:33.840
<v Speaker 4>of nothing, or what is actually do you want for

0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 4>us to give you a price at the end of

0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:39.360
<v Speaker 4>every week? Or you know, you may be appreciated or dismissed.

0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:42.239
<v Speaker 4>But there's also another way to just say this is

0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:44.680
<v Speaker 4>not my place at this moment, and so if you

0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:48.040
<v Speaker 4>are actively looking, that's probably what I would suggest.

0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think the best way you said you're

0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.320
<v Speaker 2>helping your sister. You had committed to helping your sister

0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:55.080
<v Speaker 2>pay with the rent. Is that part of the reason

0:34:55.160 --> 0:34:55.640
<v Speaker 2>you moved in?

0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:58.879
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, because honestly, the house that they bought, they bought

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:01.279
<v Speaker 5>it at kind of a crazy time, And I think

0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:04.400
<v Speaker 5>they're kind of financially dependent on me too. So I

0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:07.560
<v Speaker 5>think a big reason that she hasn't already like kicked

0:35:07.600 --> 0:35:10.440
<v Speaker 5>me out is because they're dependent on that income.

0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.480
<v Speaker 4>Right, So that becomes very eky. Right, you need to

0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:16.080
<v Speaker 4>stay because you have the money tissue, and you need

0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:18.480
<v Speaker 4>them and they need you to stay. They would everybody

0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:21.560
<v Speaker 4>would rather not be together, but we all have financially

0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:25.680
<v Speaker 4>dependent on each other, and so it becomes this ekey thing.

0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:27.799
<v Speaker 4>I don't want to be with you, but I have

0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:29.360
<v Speaker 4>no choice. I don't want to be with you, but

0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:31.680
<v Speaker 4>I have no choice, right right?

0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:34.879
<v Speaker 3>And Sammie, can I ask how old the kids are?

0:35:35.440 --> 0:35:36.840
<v Speaker 5>They are twelve?

0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:39.439
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Okay, Well, you know, I mentioning that the kids

0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:41.440
<v Speaker 2>have you feel like the kids have lost respect for you.

0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:43.720
<v Speaker 2>I would say I would attribute that to you allowing

0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:46.120
<v Speaker 2>yourself to be caught up in this situation. You moving

0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:49.160
<v Speaker 2>out would be another way to reclaim their respect for

0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:53.120
<v Speaker 2>you because you tolerating this situation. Also, as in setting

0:35:53.120 --> 0:35:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the greatest example, I know you probably feel a little

0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:58.880
<v Speaker 2>bit responsible because they are your niece and nephews, but

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:02.120
<v Speaker 2>your responsibility, a first and foremost is to yourself, is

0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:04.799
<v Speaker 2>to get yourself out of that situation, and then you

0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:08.359
<v Speaker 2>can be actively a much better influence at and all

0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:10.959
<v Speaker 2>of the things that you are to them by kind

0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 2>of extricating yourself. I mean, I agree, you've got to

0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:15.799
<v Speaker 2>get yourself out of that situation because listen, there's a

0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:18.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of judgment coming from you, and maybe rightfully so

0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:21.399
<v Speaker 2>because it does sound like a hot mess. But that's

0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:23.719
<v Speaker 2>not good for any dynamic at all. You're all just

0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:26.120
<v Speaker 2>gonna get pissed and bitter. The twenty two year old

0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:29.080
<v Speaker 2>girl should be paying rent. You shouldn't be working and

0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:31.359
<v Speaker 2>paying rent. It's one or the other, you know. If

0:36:31.400 --> 0:36:33.640
<v Speaker 2>you're staying there, if you're babysitting for them all the time,

0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:34.720
<v Speaker 2>then why are you paying rent?

0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:37.120
<v Speaker 1>But listen, forget about all that convoluted stuff.

0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:39.799
<v Speaker 2>It's just more important you'll find somebody who accepts a

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:42.520
<v Speaker 2>cat and dog, get a nice, humble room so you

0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:44.239
<v Speaker 2>can work to pay off what you need to pay

0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:48.080
<v Speaker 2>off in this interim time and reclaim your self respect

0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:50.680
<v Speaker 2>because you're not in a situation where you're feeling respectful

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:54.319
<v Speaker 2>towards yourself because of the people that you're surrounded with. Yeah,

0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:56.439
<v Speaker 2>and I think you will feel better getting out of there,

0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:59.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you will have less judgment towards them

0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.040
<v Speaker 2>when it's not in your face every single day.

0:37:01.200 --> 0:37:01.480
<v Speaker 5>Right.

0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:04.560
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, you would be a very good therapist.

0:37:04.920 --> 0:37:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Ah, thank you.

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:10.319
<v Speaker 3>Making sure that the kids know that you're available to

0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:12.600
<v Speaker 3>them and having that conversation with them, even though right

0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:14.480
<v Speaker 3>now they kind of like are annoyed with you or

0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:16.560
<v Speaker 3>whatever because you're the only one setting any rules. Like,

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:18.799
<v Speaker 3>they're probably gonna be a little fearal for a little

0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:21.280
<v Speaker 3>while because you know, mom and dad aren't paying attention.

0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:24.000
<v Speaker 3>But like checking in with them, letting them know that

0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:25.880
<v Speaker 3>you're there, I think is maybe the best thing that

0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:26.520
<v Speaker 3>you can do.

0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:27.520
<v Speaker 1>And be firm.

0:37:27.640 --> 0:37:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Listen, be firm with kids. Kids like boundaries, even if

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:33.040
<v Speaker 2>they don't act like it. It works. It always works

0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:34.920
<v Speaker 2>to be firm as an adult with children so that

0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:36.719
<v Speaker 2>they know where you stand and they're not going to

0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>take advantage of you.

0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:39.880
<v Speaker 1>You're not going to put up with any bullshit. You

0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.120
<v Speaker 1>know you're there. You love them, They can come to you.

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>It's your love is unconditional, but you're not going to

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:46.440
<v Speaker 2>put up with any sort of behavior.

0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:48.920
<v Speaker 5>Awesome, Thank you so much. I think it's kind of

0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:51.600
<v Speaker 5>the kick in the butt that I need, because you know,

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:54.440
<v Speaker 5>you can tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself,

0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:56.319
<v Speaker 5>but you know you kind of have to hear it

0:37:56.320 --> 0:37:59.760
<v Speaker 5>from an outside source before you can really give yourself

0:37:59.760 --> 0:37:59.920
<v Speaker 5>the p.

0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:03.440
<v Speaker 4>It's said with care from the three of us.

0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:05.520
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, yeah, no, I know that.

0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:06.080
<v Speaker 1>I know that.

0:38:06.800 --> 0:38:09.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm sending you lots of love and I'm sure

0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:11.880
<v Speaker 2>you'll find a place soon, so keep on trucking.

0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:13.600
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for having me.

0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:14.840
<v Speaker 1>It was a pleasure.

0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:17.080
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Sammy, Bye bye.

0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:21.360
<v Speaker 1>That is really one hot mess of a situation, I know.

0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 3>And having added this one to their will and their

0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:26.440
<v Speaker 3>bank accounts, I'm like, oh geez, what is going on?

0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:29.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, bank accounts? What is that about? What I mean?

0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:32.240
<v Speaker 1>Those are they on ecstasy? Like what are they thinking?

0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:34.160
<v Speaker 3>Let's I imagine so.

0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:38.680
<v Speaker 4>Well.

0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:43.200
<v Speaker 3>Our next caller is Laura, and she had a bit

0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:45.560
<v Speaker 3>of a traumatic experience, but is wondering how this is

0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:49.960
<v Speaker 3>going to affect her daughter. So Laura says, I'm now

0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:52.440
<v Speaker 3>thirty seven, but when I was eighteen, I was invited

0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:55.000
<v Speaker 3>to a party by an older guy. My friend and

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:57.640
<v Speaker 3>her boyfriend came with, but my interaction with this guy

0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:00.920
<v Speaker 3>quickly went south. He pushed me with full force into

0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:02.719
<v Speaker 3>a bush on the side of the house where no

0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:05.759
<v Speaker 3>one was and jumped on top of me. Even typing this,

0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:08.560
<v Speaker 3>it makes me feel so angry. My friend and her

0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:11.560
<v Speaker 3>boyfriend thankfully noticed I was gone, came looking for me,

0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:14.759
<v Speaker 3>and rustled him off of me. Almost twenty years later,

0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:16.719
<v Speaker 3>I live in a small town and he is a

0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:21.560
<v Speaker 3>cop here. Seeing him makes me so uncomfortable. I'm married

0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:23.960
<v Speaker 3>now and my husband fully knows the whole story and

0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:27.000
<v Speaker 3>hates him deeply too. But i have a beautiful young

0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:30.000
<v Speaker 3>daughter I'm raising, and I'm so deeply terrified of the

0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:33.279
<v Speaker 3>what ifs for her experience with males. How do I

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:35.799
<v Speaker 3>cope with the fear of what could happen? I know

0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:37.920
<v Speaker 3>it's not useful or helpful to me at all, but

0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 3>it's hard not to be so scared.

0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:44.279
<v Speaker 2>Laura Hi Kutie esther perel Lisa here today as our

0:39:44.320 --> 0:39:45.120
<v Speaker 2>special guest.

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:47.359
<v Speaker 4>Lui lu oh wow Hi.

0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So the guy is a police officer in your neighborhood.

0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:57.399
<v Speaker 4>Have you and him actually met after the yes, since

0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:01.000
<v Speaker 4>he's yes now as the and do you have a

0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:02.920
<v Speaker 4>sense when you meet him that he knows that you

0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:03.920
<v Speaker 4>know that he knows?

0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:09.120
<v Speaker 6>Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent. Actually, three or

0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:12.480
<v Speaker 6>four weeks ago, my husband's truck got broken into and

0:40:12.560 --> 0:40:14.920
<v Speaker 6>we called the police, and he, of course was the

0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:19.319
<v Speaker 6>officer to show up, and then my husband knows. But

0:40:19.840 --> 0:40:22.359
<v Speaker 6>it was very uncomfortable because I mean, I have zero

0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 6>trust in him, obviously because of what he did to me. So,

0:40:26.120 --> 0:40:28.319
<v Speaker 6>I mean, it just kind of felt like, I don't

0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:30.799
<v Speaker 6>know how to put it, but like, no matter what,

0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:34.120
<v Speaker 6>he didn't really care as much, you know, because he

0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:36.880
<v Speaker 6>knew what I knew, and he had no idea that

0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:38.360
<v Speaker 6>I guess he kind of like thought it was a

0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:40.560
<v Speaker 6>secret team he and I. I could kind of tell

0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:43.399
<v Speaker 6>he didn't think I had told my husband. I could tell,

0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:46.800
<v Speaker 6>but and at the time, my husband's not very confrontational,

0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:48.759
<v Speaker 6>so I wasn't gonna say anything about it not so

0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:50.400
<v Speaker 6>he didn't want to embarrass me.

0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:52.239
<v Speaker 5>But yeah, it was.

0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:54.440
<v Speaker 6>It was very uncomfortable. And then he gave me his

0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:57.400
<v Speaker 6>email address too, so I could send video footage of

0:40:57.440 --> 0:41:00.120
<v Speaker 6>the guy who got into the truck. So just I

0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:02.960
<v Speaker 6>felt like a never ending process because I didn't want

0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:04.720
<v Speaker 6>to speak to him or see him ever again.

0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:08.000
<v Speaker 4>But I mean that's impossible in this town. Do you

0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:11.880
<v Speaker 4>ever want to have a conversation with him? Do you

0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:14.600
<v Speaker 4>feel the need to tell him, you know, I want

0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:16.279
<v Speaker 4>this to be clear between us.

0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:21.240
<v Speaker 6>I've thought about that and I don't know if I

0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:23.800
<v Speaker 6>I think it would just be for me because he

0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:26.759
<v Speaker 6>doesn't seem remorseful, and I can only tell by you know,

0:41:26.880 --> 0:41:30.680
<v Speaker 6>how he handled the situation recently, but even at the

0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:33.960
<v Speaker 6>time and the person he's been since then towards me,

0:41:34.480 --> 0:41:37.879
<v Speaker 6>he doesn't seem like he would ever care, like at all,

0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.520
<v Speaker 6>it would never affect him.

0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:43.000
<v Speaker 4>Okay, then we have a thing. But then you're asking

0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:46.240
<v Speaker 4>about your d I think. But when when I listened

0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:48.520
<v Speaker 4>to the story, here's what came up to me. You

0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:51.920
<v Speaker 4>had good friends who went with you. Yes, yeah, you

0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.839
<v Speaker 4>had friends who instantly noticed when you were not there,

0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:59.520
<v Speaker 4>thank goodness. Yes. So what this tells you is their

0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:03.719
<v Speaker 4>situation where you don't go alone. There are situations where

0:42:03.719 --> 0:42:06.000
<v Speaker 4>you go with very close friends and you have a

0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:08.600
<v Speaker 4>little quick code in advance. If any of us is

0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:12.359
<v Speaker 4>absent for more than you know, we go looking. And

0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:15.280
<v Speaker 4>you teach that to your daughter. You don't teach fear,

0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:19.319
<v Speaker 4>but you teach the need to understand, to have good

0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:23.200
<v Speaker 4>judgment and to have situations where, especially if there's going

0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:26.359
<v Speaker 4>to be drinking involved or this or that, to never

0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:29.560
<v Speaker 4>just be on your own because we need to watch

0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:34.360
<v Speaker 4>out for each other. And then later, much later, I fact,

0:42:34.480 --> 0:42:36.880
<v Speaker 4>at some point it matters. You just say, you know,

0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:40.719
<v Speaker 4>part of why I'm so vigilant is because and I

0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.480
<v Speaker 4>just want to make sure that you know this never

0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:46.399
<v Speaker 4>happens to you, and it's okay to tell. You don't

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:48.480
<v Speaker 4>have to give details, but you can just say, you know,

0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.720
<v Speaker 4>I once went to a party and this is what happened.

0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:53.160
<v Speaker 4>You don't have to see who it is or any

0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:56.920
<v Speaker 4>of that, but just to say, my vigilance comes from somewhere,

0:42:57.040 --> 0:42:59.520
<v Speaker 4>it is. It has a good intention. I'm not here

0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:03.319
<v Speaker 4>to to restrain you and control you, and that's it.

0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:06.399
<v Speaker 4>You're part of You will remain vigilant. Sometimes you will

0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:11.400
<v Speaker 4>feel hyper vigilant. Sometimes you will just feel reasonably careful.

0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:14.960
<v Speaker 4>And sometimes you won't know if you are being too

0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:18.719
<v Speaker 4>much of something or too little of something, because once

0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:21.480
<v Speaker 4>you have these kind of experiences that take you outside

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:26.440
<v Speaker 4>of the limits, then you don't. Then that's what gets shaken,

0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:29.880
<v Speaker 4>is the sense of the container the limits. Where is safety?

0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:34.120
<v Speaker 4>Am I being overly careful? Am I being overly casual?

0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:37.840
<v Speaker 4>And that is a part of what we stay with

0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:41.160
<v Speaker 4>when we have had boundaries infringed upon like that?

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:45.799
<v Speaker 6>Right, No, that makes sense. I guess they call me

0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:48.520
<v Speaker 6>like a helicopter mom. I guess you'd say I'm like

0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:51.359
<v Speaker 6>extra worried all the time, and I feel like I'm

0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:54.160
<v Speaker 6>constantly on if that makes sense.

0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:56.680
<v Speaker 4>Yes, of course, of course, but you also want to

0:43:56.719 --> 0:44:01.760
<v Speaker 4>teach her as best you can to recognize the science,

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:06.680
<v Speaker 4>because if you take over and you become the watchtower,

0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:11.920
<v Speaker 4>then you actually don't then she may have underdeveloped skills

0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:16.279
<v Speaker 4>that she could develop herself. It's that fine balance that

0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.120
<v Speaker 4>you want to You want to be careful for her,

0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:21.600
<v Speaker 4>but you don't want to take over to the point

0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:25.200
<v Speaker 4>where she becomes less capable of being in the world

0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:27.719
<v Speaker 4>because you are her flashlight. Yeah.

0:44:27.719 --> 0:44:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I think that's very sagacious advice. And I also would

0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:32.120
<v Speaker 2>just add that, you know, back to him being a

0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:35.879
<v Speaker 2>police officer in your community, you don't have to have

0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:38.239
<v Speaker 2>him show up if and when you ever need the

0:44:38.280 --> 0:44:40.720
<v Speaker 2>police to come to your house again. There's no reason

0:44:40.719 --> 0:44:42.440
<v Speaker 2>that you ever have to interact with him again. You

0:44:42.440 --> 0:44:44.439
<v Speaker 2>can easily. I know you live in a small town,

0:44:44.560 --> 0:44:46.680
<v Speaker 2>but there's no reason that you can't go to the

0:44:46.680 --> 0:44:49.080
<v Speaker 2>police station and be very honest. I mean, I know

0:44:49.120 --> 0:44:50.920
<v Speaker 2>you probably don't want to start something in a very

0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:53.000
<v Speaker 2>small town, but say I don't want him coming to

0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:55.600
<v Speaker 2>my house ever again, like this has to you know,

0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:58.239
<v Speaker 2>if there's an emergency. I want even in you know

0:44:58.280 --> 0:44:59.680
<v Speaker 2>you're not gonna want to do it in the moment

0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:02.120
<v Speaker 2>of it urgency, But he doesn't care, just like you

0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:04.239
<v Speaker 2>said he didn't care about your car being stolen. There's

0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:06.120
<v Speaker 2>no reason you have to sit with your somebody who

0:45:06.200 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 2>assaulted you in that dynamic. You can very clearly go

0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:12.320
<v Speaker 2>in there, explain what happened and say I'm not I

0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:14.920
<v Speaker 2>don't want this police officer, or you can leave out

0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:16.319
<v Speaker 2>the story and just say I don't want this police

0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:18.879
<v Speaker 2>officer ever coming to my house again, you know, and

0:45:19.200 --> 0:45:22.200
<v Speaker 2>let them be very clear about the fact that in

0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:24.719
<v Speaker 2>case of an emergency or anything else that comes up,

0:45:24.760 --> 0:45:27.880
<v Speaker 2>that they can't send him there. You know that's not

0:45:28.000 --> 0:45:30.640
<v Speaker 2>fair to you, and that's ridiculous. You could press you know,

0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:32.520
<v Speaker 2>you could have pressed charges if you wanted to. Obviously

0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:35.920
<v Speaker 2>there's a statute of limitations, but you know that is

0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:37.640
<v Speaker 2>not okay for him to come to your house and

0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:39.560
<v Speaker 2>you have to interact with him as somebody who's going.

0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:43.080
<v Speaker 3>To protect you, Yeah, and retraumatize you. Have you had

0:45:43.160 --> 0:45:46.680
<v Speaker 3>any therapy around that experience, specifically, because I can feel

0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:49.120
<v Speaker 3>it in your body still even just reading your email.

0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:52.720
<v Speaker 6>Actually, the year after words. I went to my guydecologists

0:45:52.760 --> 0:45:55.919
<v Speaker 6>for my appointment, and I know it sounds silly because

0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:57.799
<v Speaker 6>I was eighteen at the time, but I always my

0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:00.200
<v Speaker 6>mom goes with me, so my mom was there and

0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:02.640
<v Speaker 6>he asked in front of my mom even if something

0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:06.040
<v Speaker 6>had happened to me physically, so of course then the

0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:08.440
<v Speaker 6>conversation got brought up with my mom. So I did

0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:11.600
<v Speaker 6>see a counselor after that. But actually here as of lately,

0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:14.359
<v Speaker 6>just with stuff going on with my daughter, I got

0:46:14.400 --> 0:46:18.680
<v Speaker 6>back into therapy online and it's been very resourceful for

0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:22.320
<v Speaker 6>me with everything going on. But here lately we've started

0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:25.760
<v Speaker 6>to like dig deeper into the past. So I think now,

0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:27.960
<v Speaker 6>especially talking with you guys, I think it would be

0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:30.040
<v Speaker 6>a good idea to bring it up.

0:46:30.520 --> 0:46:34.080
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely absolutely, yes, yes, definitely.

0:46:33.719 --> 0:46:35.560
<v Speaker 2>And you're going to be a better mom for it also,

0:46:35.719 --> 0:46:37.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, dealing with your trauma, getting it out of

0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:40.560
<v Speaker 2>your body, being empowered, you know, which is what you

0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:42.400
<v Speaker 2>need to be as a mother and as a woman.

0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:46.239
<v Speaker 6>Thank you. I appreciate that, because the most important thing

0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:48.360
<v Speaker 6>to me is to make sure I raise her to

0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:51.960
<v Speaker 6>be strong and a good woman and that she doesn't

0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:54.759
<v Speaker 6>let I hope she doesn't let anything go on with

0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:55.839
<v Speaker 6>her like I did.

0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:56.320
<v Speaker 4>I should have.

0:46:57.400 --> 0:46:59.120
<v Speaker 6>I feel like I should have fought back a little

0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:01.239
<v Speaker 6>bit more, but I know it wasn't on me, it

0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:01.799
<v Speaker 6>was on him.

0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:03.440
<v Speaker 4>But still the situation was.

0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you don't know what you're going to do

0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:07.040
<v Speaker 2>in those situations, people are in shock. Don't beat yourself

0:47:07.120 --> 0:47:08.480
<v Speaker 2>up for that. You don't know what you're going to

0:47:08.560 --> 0:47:11.080
<v Speaker 2>do in a situation, and you know when you're taking

0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:13.880
<v Speaker 2>off guard. You can't be responsible for your actions in

0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:18.160
<v Speaker 2>that moment, you know, so absolutely, But thank you for

0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:20.120
<v Speaker 2>calling in and I hope that was helpful.

0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:22.359
<v Speaker 4>Thank you absolutely, it was.

0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:24.760
<v Speaker 6>Thank you so much, and it was a pleasure talking

0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:26.640
<v Speaker 6>with you all and meeting you all very much.

0:47:26.920 --> 0:47:28.600
<v Speaker 4>Thanks a Laura, Thank you.

0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:33.560
<v Speaker 3>By Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be

0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:34.560
<v Speaker 3>back with a final question.

0:47:34.800 --> 0:47:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, and we're back.

0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:45.480
<v Speaker 3>We are back, Lindsey says dear Chelsea. I don't know

0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:48.160
<v Speaker 3>if I should stay married. I've been with my husband

0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:50.719
<v Speaker 3>for eight years, married for one and we have two

0:47:50.760 --> 0:47:54.080
<v Speaker 3>little kids, two and four. I also have an older stepdaughter.

0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:57.480
<v Speaker 3>About seven months ago, I had a very sudden overnight

0:47:57.520 --> 0:48:00.200
<v Speaker 3>awakening where I suddenly felt like all the small all

0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:03.520
<v Speaker 3>things about my relationship i'd ignored became big issues for me.

0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:06.839
<v Speaker 3>For example, my husband doesn't really have any friends. If

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:09.840
<v Speaker 3>we do things socially, I plan or get the invite

0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:12.040
<v Speaker 3>and he comes along. He doesn't have a separate social

0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:15.520
<v Speaker 3>life at all. I'm very driven. I'm an ambitious person

0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 3>with lots of goals. I recently asked him what his

0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:19.640
<v Speaker 3>goals were for the future, and he didn't have a

0:48:19.680 --> 0:48:22.799
<v Speaker 3>single one. Nothing more than what it is now. This

0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:25.480
<v Speaker 3>is okay. I think it's just wildly different from me.

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:28.120
<v Speaker 3>When I talk about my goals, he says, oh, you're

0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:30.880
<v Speaker 3>just gonna leave me behind one day. I'm scared to

0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 3>stay small in order to keep the peace at home.

0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:36.279
<v Speaker 3>He's a wonderful dad, and he takes care of his

0:48:36.360 --> 0:48:38.680
<v Speaker 3>share of things around the house, but as usual, I

0:48:38.760 --> 0:48:41.319
<v Speaker 3>do more than fifty percent of the kid's stuff. We

0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:44.400
<v Speaker 3>also don't communicate at times. We don't say a single

0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:46.759
<v Speaker 3>word before he leaves the house in the morning. He

0:48:46.800 --> 0:48:49.200
<v Speaker 3>doesn't ask me questions or engage in things I have

0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:53.120
<v Speaker 3>going on. Basically, we're not active participants in each other's lives.

0:48:53.360 --> 0:48:57.080
<v Speaker 3>We cohabitat raise kids together, but are not connected. And

0:48:57.160 --> 0:48:59.880
<v Speaker 3>I am craving communication. I love to talk and have

0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:03.640
<v Speaker 3>deep conversations, and I feel very deprived of that. I've

0:49:03.640 --> 0:49:06.040
<v Speaker 3>explained to him how lonely I feel and how unhappy

0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:08.759
<v Speaker 3>I am at times. We have couples therapy scheduled, and

0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:11.280
<v Speaker 3>I feel heartbroken by the idea of splitting my kids.

0:49:12.239 --> 0:49:14.440
<v Speaker 3>I also know there's an issue because I have feelings

0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:16.840
<v Speaker 3>for someone else. This is the second person in a

0:49:16.840 --> 0:49:19.560
<v Speaker 3>handful of months I have met and felt feelings for.

0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:22.520
<v Speaker 3>There's nothing happening there at all. I just feel strongly

0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:26.319
<v Speaker 3>for someone else, which feels important in this situation. The

0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:29.160
<v Speaker 3>problem seems to be that I'm settling for good and

0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:31.960
<v Speaker 3>dreaming of great It's very hard to choose to leave

0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:34.439
<v Speaker 3>a good man with a decent job, who's a great dad.

0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:38.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm terrified of the dating world and of heartbreak. I

0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:39.960
<v Speaker 3>just don't know what to do or how to do it.

0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:42.680
<v Speaker 3>I'm really afraid of making a huge mistake. Thanks so

0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:44.120
<v Speaker 3>much for reading, Lindsey.

0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:47.640
<v Speaker 2>That seems to be such a recurring theme, right, the

0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:50.480
<v Speaker 2>idea that they want something better, but they're also scared

0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:51.480
<v Speaker 2>to go get it.

0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:56.440
<v Speaker 4>So you know they are eight years together when you're married,

0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:00.839
<v Speaker 4>and my first question is Lindsey, How did you meet

0:50:01.360 --> 0:50:03.919
<v Speaker 4>and what drew you to this man? I mean, what's

0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:07.799
<v Speaker 4>the origin story? Obviously he would not have said this

0:50:08.040 --> 0:50:11.840
<v Speaker 4>when you when you met him, So what drew you

0:50:11.960 --> 0:50:15.520
<v Speaker 4>to him? What was it? And where did you come

0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:19.200
<v Speaker 4>from before that he was the person that you chose

0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:21.799
<v Speaker 4>at that moment. I think that that would give me

0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:25.840
<v Speaker 4>a lot of information in terms of where she's landing

0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:29.240
<v Speaker 4>at this moment, because often the very things that one's

0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:33.480
<v Speaker 4>complaining about are the same things that one found initially attractive.

0:50:34.000 --> 0:50:36.880
<v Speaker 4>You know, he was stable, he was a good dad,

0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:40.080
<v Speaker 4>he was reliable, he was there for me. And this

0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:42.799
<v Speaker 4>may probably come on the heels of I was in

0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:47.160
<v Speaker 4>another relationship that was unstable, that was not reliable. You know,

0:50:47.680 --> 0:50:50.160
<v Speaker 4>there's a yin yang in our lives about this. So

0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.360
<v Speaker 4>this is the first thing. And then I have a

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:57.120
<v Speaker 4>sense that it may be a coincidence that the seven

0:50:57.120 --> 0:51:00.920
<v Speaker 4>months ago when this lady woke up, this woman woke up,

0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:03.200
<v Speaker 4>is also the seven months when she met this new

0:51:03.200 --> 0:51:06.000
<v Speaker 4>person that she has feelings for. You know, these things

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:10.160
<v Speaker 4>are often well timed, and so at this moment, what

0:51:10.440 --> 0:51:13.000
<v Speaker 4>are these new feelings or at these feelings that have

0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:17.359
<v Speaker 4>taken on a new intensity because you are flirting in

0:51:17.400 --> 0:51:21.160
<v Speaker 4>your mind with the idea of another person. And then

0:51:21.560 --> 0:51:23.759
<v Speaker 4>this notion that you're going to capos therapy but you

0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:25.600
<v Speaker 4>hate to break up your family. You're not going to

0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:28.200
<v Speaker 4>copos therapy to break up your family, but you may

0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:31.120
<v Speaker 4>be going to cople therape to understand that the man

0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:33.480
<v Speaker 4>you are with now is the man you've always been with,

0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:36.839
<v Speaker 4>and that this is about also coming to terms with

0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:40.440
<v Speaker 4>your choice. No, he may not be any mootor he

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:43.200
<v Speaker 4>may be more on a spectrum more. He may be

0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:46.680
<v Speaker 4>not a person who has great ambitions, but he is

0:51:46.719 --> 0:51:50.520
<v Speaker 4>a person who will support your ambitions, and that is

0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:55.000
<v Speaker 4>a perfectly valuable platform as well. He will be there

0:51:55.080 --> 0:51:57.319
<v Speaker 4>so that you can go out into the world and

0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:00.480
<v Speaker 4>he will accompany you, and he won't argue where you

0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:03.080
<v Speaker 4>ask him to come. You may want someone who has

0:52:03.120 --> 0:52:05.319
<v Speaker 4>their own life and their own initiatives and all of that.

0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.920
<v Speaker 4>Did he have them when you met? Did he forego

0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:12.200
<v Speaker 4>them in order to solidify his connection with It's like

0:52:12.440 --> 0:52:15.360
<v Speaker 4>there's a few pieces of information here that would help

0:52:15.880 --> 0:52:18.319
<v Speaker 4>say this is the direction or that this is not

0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:20.960
<v Speaker 4>about I'm willing to let go of good for great

0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:23.600
<v Speaker 4>is I don't think that this is a question about

0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:27.480
<v Speaker 4>how can I optimize and maximize my life. This is

0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:31.360
<v Speaker 4>fundamentally about you're coming to terms with the choice you

0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:34.000
<v Speaker 4>made that you may or may not have acknowledged to

0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:35.160
<v Speaker 4>yourself from day one.

0:52:35.520 --> 0:52:37.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think a lot of people feel this way.

0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Be careful what you wish for. Right You could be

0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:41.640
<v Speaker 2>in a relationship with somebody who has a million things

0:52:41.680 --> 0:52:44.480
<v Speaker 2>going on, and then you could feel ignored and invisible

0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:44.799
<v Speaker 2>and that.

0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:46.760
<v Speaker 1>You're not getting enough from that person.

0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:49.480
<v Speaker 2>So it's like there is this feeling of the grass

0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:52.200
<v Speaker 2>is always greener as there are like with couples, you

0:52:52.200 --> 0:52:52.920
<v Speaker 2>know they get to this.

0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.480
<v Speaker 4>It took my sentence away. I was going to go there,

0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:59.400
<v Speaker 4>and I decided to wait. But yes, it's like you

0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:01.560
<v Speaker 4>know you when you are with someone who is very

0:53:01.640 --> 0:53:06.000
<v Speaker 4>active and has a whole life, the fault line is

0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:08.480
<v Speaker 4>you know you're not available for me. When you are

0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:11.280
<v Speaker 4>with a person who is available for you but doesn't

0:53:11.320 --> 0:53:13.440
<v Speaker 4>have many other things, then it's you know you're too

0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:17.040
<v Speaker 4>dependent on me. In both cases, the question is less

0:53:17.040 --> 0:53:19.960
<v Speaker 4>about this man and more about this woman and the

0:53:20.080 --> 0:53:24.600
<v Speaker 4>nature of her relationship to him, and this idea that

0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:27.040
<v Speaker 4>she has to make herself small in order to maintain

0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:30.440
<v Speaker 4>the peace. No, No, he's not. Probably he's maybe not

0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:33.200
<v Speaker 4>asking that either. If you say, you know, if I

0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:36.600
<v Speaker 4>lift my boat, it lifts all boats. And we are

0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:38.960
<v Speaker 4>going on this together. And what I get from you

0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:42.960
<v Speaker 4>is the support for my ambitions. That's what matters, not

0:53:43.080 --> 0:53:46.319
<v Speaker 4>does he have his own? You know? What you want

0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:48.960
<v Speaker 4>is to know what he does with yours? Is he

0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:51.440
<v Speaker 4>threatened by it? When he says you made when day

0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:53.680
<v Speaker 4>leave me? Is because you keep telling him that he's

0:53:53.680 --> 0:53:56.600
<v Speaker 4>a bum and you don't really find him interesting or

0:53:56.640 --> 0:54:00.440
<v Speaker 4>attractive because he doesn't have anything pulling him. What's the

0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:03.240
<v Speaker 4>dialogue that we don't hear here is what I would

0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:07.560
<v Speaker 4>like to understand. And one last thing I would add

0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:12.400
<v Speaker 4>maybe is sometimes your relationship is the source of the nurturance,

0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:16.439
<v Speaker 4>of the happiness of the engagement. But sometimes the relationship

0:54:16.600 --> 0:54:20.279
<v Speaker 4>is more of a scaffolding, and the scaffolding that makes

0:54:20.320 --> 0:54:23.480
<v Speaker 4>it available for you to go into the world and

0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:27.000
<v Speaker 4>to get your food and your nourishment and your engagements

0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:33.000
<v Speaker 4>and your ambitions met there. And those are two viable models.

0:54:33.520 --> 0:54:37.200
<v Speaker 4>It may be that in this instance what's between the

0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:39.920
<v Speaker 4>two of you is less about the intimacy of the

0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:44.600
<v Speaker 4>connection as between what this relationship gives to each of

0:54:44.640 --> 0:54:48.000
<v Speaker 4>you makes possible for both of you in life. And

0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:51.719
<v Speaker 4>that is also a respectable choice, just so you know,

0:54:52.040 --> 0:54:54.040
<v Speaker 4>may not be the one she chooses to make, but

0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:57.480
<v Speaker 4>it is a very common choice. It just is often

0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:01.840
<v Speaker 4>not named like this, but it is a very clear decision.

0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:06.080
<v Speaker 2>And I also would add looking at counseling as an opportunity,

0:55:06.160 --> 0:55:08.200
<v Speaker 2>not as a failure, like you're going to go to

0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:11.880
<v Speaker 2>counseling and there's a huge opportunity for growth there between

0:55:11.920 --> 0:55:17.239
<v Speaker 2>you and your partner, reconnecting and finding rediscovering each other

0:55:17.280 --> 0:55:19.080
<v Speaker 2>in a way that you had it before. It's an

0:55:19.080 --> 0:55:22.520
<v Speaker 2>opportunity for your partner to gain a better understanding of

0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:25.359
<v Speaker 2>what you're feeling and how you're feeling and how you're

0:55:25.400 --> 0:55:27.040
<v Speaker 2>feeling seen and what you.

0:55:27.040 --> 0:55:27.839
<v Speaker 1>Want from him.

0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:30.560
<v Speaker 2>And if at the end of all of that, you

0:55:30.600 --> 0:55:33.520
<v Speaker 2>guys don't get together and get stronger, then you have

0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:36.879
<v Speaker 2>a very kind of clear path forward that it's not what.

0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:37.560
<v Speaker 1>You're looking for.

0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:40.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, if you're distracted by other people during your marriage,

0:55:40.680 --> 0:55:43.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's an uncommon theme. I think it's

0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:47.400
<v Speaker 2>a matter of is that distraction like a yearning to

0:55:47.480 --> 0:55:49.840
<v Speaker 2>be out of your marriage or is it simply a distraction.

0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:52.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's very clear, like as you were reading

0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:53.440
<v Speaker 2>this letter that you were going to mention you had

0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:55.120
<v Speaker 2>a crush on somebody at some point.

0:55:55.239 --> 0:55:57.359
<v Speaker 1>Because that's what was you know, we've asked.

0:55:58.040 --> 0:56:00.759
<v Speaker 2>Both of us were like, ah, yeah, but just look

0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:03.480
<v Speaker 2>at counseling is huge. It's a huge opportunity for growth

0:56:03.480 --> 0:56:06.200
<v Speaker 2>within yourself, within your marriage, and for your partner. So

0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:09.000
<v Speaker 2>look at everything as an advantage. The more knowledge you have,

0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:11.799
<v Speaker 2>the better you are making a decision. And if your

0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:14.680
<v Speaker 2>marriage can survive this, then you're going to be stronger

0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:17.439
<v Speaker 2>for it. And if you do decide to split, then

0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:20.000
<v Speaker 2>that's okay too. Then you can go pursue all.

0:56:19.920 --> 0:56:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Of these things you're talking about.

0:56:21.200 --> 0:56:23.799
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully you can pursue them within your marriage by just

0:56:23.920 --> 0:56:27.640
<v Speaker 2>having a better line of communication and understanding of each other.

0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:31.000
<v Speaker 4>I think I would add another piece to it as well, Chelseae,

0:56:31.080 --> 0:56:34.920
<v Speaker 4>is that what I'm not hearing enough is a basic

0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:39.200
<v Speaker 4>appreciation for the man, for the person, for what he represents,

0:56:39.239 --> 0:56:41.760
<v Speaker 4>not for what he does, not for the fifty percent,

0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:44.680
<v Speaker 4>but for who he is, for the love he brings,

0:56:44.680 --> 0:56:48.399
<v Speaker 4>for the care, the attention, the reliability. All these things

0:56:48.400 --> 0:56:52.439
<v Speaker 4>are actually very big things if your relationship will disintegrate

0:56:52.600 --> 0:56:55.680
<v Speaker 4>if it becomes a relationship where two people are basically

0:56:56.120 --> 0:56:59.759
<v Speaker 4>criticizing each other and pointing only at the shortcomings and

0:56:59.800 --> 0:57:03.160
<v Speaker 4>the failures and the gaps rather than and take for

0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:07.680
<v Speaker 4>granted what is and only highlight what's missing. And that

0:57:07.920 --> 0:57:11.920
<v Speaker 4>piece is something I hope you develop in and cultivating

0:57:12.000 --> 0:57:15.239
<v Speaker 4>the couple's therapy and in you know, people want to

0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:18.560
<v Speaker 4>know that they matter, that they mean something, that they're there,

0:57:18.600 --> 0:57:21.040
<v Speaker 4>and that their presence is appreciated and not that their

0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:23.280
<v Speaker 4>presence is evaluated and measured.

0:57:24.000 --> 0:57:25.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's for sure.

0:57:26.200 --> 0:57:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, good luck with that situation and thank you

0:57:29.920 --> 0:57:32.200
<v Speaker 2>as Stair. So your course on conflict, how can people

0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:32.960
<v Speaker 2>sign up for that?

0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:37.120
<v Speaker 4>Rate to the website Esteraparil dot com. Is the couple

0:57:37.160 --> 0:57:41.200
<v Speaker 4>of course. It's called Turning Conflict into Connection. Where should

0:57:41.240 --> 0:57:44.120
<v Speaker 4>we begin? You all know it's the podcast. It's on

0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:47.600
<v Speaker 4>Apple and on vox and anywhere you listen to your

0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:52.040
<v Speaker 4>podcasts with the subscription on Apple, and it is basically this,

0:57:52.240 --> 0:57:55.080
<v Speaker 4>it's live couples Therapy. It's what we've been doing together,

0:57:55.400 --> 0:57:58.840
<v Speaker 4>is the podcast. It's live relationship therapy with individuals and

0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:02.040
<v Speaker 4>couples where you fly on the wall listening in on

0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:05.439
<v Speaker 4>the sessions of others and where should we begin the game.

0:58:05.520 --> 0:58:08.160
<v Speaker 4>It's also on my website and on Amazon, And that's

0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:12.520
<v Speaker 4>how do you actually It's the tool for communication to

0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:18.640
<v Speaker 4>establish connection, curiosity, trust, playfulness in your relationships by having

0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:23.280
<v Speaker 4>very beautiful questions that lead to storytelling, not to answers,

0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:26.360
<v Speaker 4>but to storytelling, because relationships are stories.

0:58:27.000 --> 0:58:27.600
<v Speaker 1>Wonderful.

0:58:27.720 --> 0:58:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Your husband must be like he must lose any sort

0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:32.360
<v Speaker 2>of argument at any time that you guys have had.

0:58:32.400 --> 0:58:34.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how can you be married to someone like

0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:35.880
<v Speaker 2>you and stay at your ground?

0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:38.680
<v Speaker 1>He must have to defer to you on everything. It's

0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:40.520
<v Speaker 1>the ultimate position to be in, you.

0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:45.160
<v Speaker 4>Think you think for decades later? No, no, no, I

0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:49.680
<v Speaker 4>have someone who but I'll tell you you goes a

0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:53.919
<v Speaker 4>long way as you know. Yeah, okay, so one way

0:58:53.960 --> 0:58:56.760
<v Speaker 4>to deflate me completely is to make me laugh. That

0:58:57.560 --> 0:58:58.080
<v Speaker 4>quite me?

0:58:58.600 --> 0:59:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Ye, that works for me as well for my future lovers. Anyway,

0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.840
<v Speaker 2>thank you Snare for being on our podcast today as pleasure.

0:59:06.280 --> 0:59:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much.

0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:11.840
<v Speaker 3>Thank you Bothay take care theare Chelsea. Do you have

0:59:11.920 --> 0:59:13.919
<v Speaker 3>some new dates for us? Oh?

0:59:14.000 --> 0:59:16.560
<v Speaker 1>You know, I do you know, I do. I have

0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:18.720
<v Speaker 1>a lot of We added lots.

0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Of Canadian cities, Canadians, I'm coming.

0:59:22.760 --> 0:59:27.160
<v Speaker 1>We added about fifteen new tour dates.

0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:32.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm coming to Denver again, Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Richmond, Virginia,

0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:37.919
<v Speaker 2>Santa Rosa, California, Gary and Deanna, Baltimore, Verona, New York,

0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:43.040
<v Speaker 2>and about seven dates in Canada. So go to Chelseahandler

0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:45.960
<v Speaker 2>dot com. I am performing everywhere. I will be on

0:59:46.000 --> 0:59:49.160
<v Speaker 2>tour all for the rest of the year and through December,

0:59:49.760 --> 0:59:51.919
<v Speaker 2>and then next year I'm going to be touring all year.

0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:55.600
<v Speaker 1>So come and get it, you guys. It's good times and.

0:59:55.600 --> 0:59:58.600
<v Speaker 2>It's a very much needed reprieve from all the fucking

0:59:58.640 --> 0:59:59.960
<v Speaker 2>madness that's going on in this world.

1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:03.720
<v Speaker 1>So I'm here to bring joy and sunshine.

1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:04.960
<v Speaker 4>Do you have a.

1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:08.160
<v Speaker 3>Holiday themed question for Chelsea? Please send us all the

1:00:08.240 --> 1:00:12.840
<v Speaker 3>questions you need answered about crazy family get togethers, arguing

1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.280
<v Speaker 3>over which Cranberry sauce recipe to us, and all your

1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:20.000
<v Speaker 3>holiday drama. Just send your questions to Dear Chelsea podcast

1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:23.560
<v Speaker 3>at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered

1:00:23.560 --> 1:00:26.840
<v Speaker 3>by Brad Dickard, executive producer Catherine Law and be sure

1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:31.520
<v Speaker 3>to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com