Speaker 1: Hi there, Catherine, Oh, Hey, Chelsea, Hey, Hey, hey jam
Speaker 1: packed a couple of days. I'm in New York City
Speaker 1: today yet again.
Speaker 2: Yes, I have a jew event that I have to
Speaker 2: go to today. What did I do yesterday?
Speaker 1: I had.
Speaker 2: I had a lot of exciting things happen, a lot
Speaker 2: of exciting things. I landed in New York yesterday and
Speaker 2: I saw about sixteen different friends and one fell swoop.
Speaker 2: I saw so many people in one day that I
Speaker 2: didn't even get into my hotel room until ten o'clock
Speaker 2: at night for the first time.
Speaker 1: And then I left again. Yeah, and I went on
Speaker 1: a date that was cute.
Speaker 2: Oh and then oh, I went to my knee surgeon
Speaker 2: so he could give me the thumbs up for skiing.
Speaker 2: Because I'm heading to Whistler soon and I'm doing all
Speaker 2: my Canadian dates there, So if you're Canadian, make sure
Speaker 2: you look go to Chelseahandler dot com because I'm coming
Speaker 2: to a city near you over winter. I have all
Speaker 2: my Canadian dates set up from January to March, so
Speaker 2: I'm very excited about that. And I just announced Australia too.
Speaker 2: I'm coming to Australia, you guys in July. So I
Speaker 2: think I have about five or six shows there anyway.
Speaker 2: But I have this little like thing on my knee
Speaker 2: for my surgery that like, it's not the swelling isn't
Speaker 2: going down on one of the incision sites, so it
Speaker 2: looks almost like a wart. So I went into my
Speaker 2: doctor this morning and I was like, you need to
Speaker 2: fucking cut this off, Like what is this? And he's like, oh,
Speaker 2: that looks like fluid. So I went down to have
Speaker 2: them drain in. They're like, that's not fluid, it's like
Speaker 2: scar tissue. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you have to remove my leg full amputation. I can't
Speaker 2: have this. I'm single, like I'm trying to hook up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I can't have a fucking ward on my knee. No,
Speaker 2: So I'm probably gonna have to sue him. I'm not
Speaker 2: in any lawsuits right now, so I don't see why
Speaker 2: I shouldn't start one.
Speaker 3: I mean, you have to have one going at all times, right.
Speaker 2: Well, my father was very litigious and I picked up
Speaker 2: a lot of that, and the last lawsuit I had
Speaker 2: was I won. That was very satisfying, encouraging. I've been
Speaker 2: in two lawsuits. One was short, little like short Claims
Speaker 2: Court or whatever, Small Claims court, short claims, small Claims Court.
Speaker 2: I sued them once for an outfit they ruined during
Speaker 2: dry cleaning, and I won like one hundred and forty bucks.
Speaker 2: I was like twenty two, So I felt very vindicated
Speaker 2: at that point in my life. And this is my
Speaker 2: second lawsuit and I won that too, and I won
Speaker 2: a lot more than one hundred and forty dollars.
Speaker 3: Well that's fantastic. I mean personally, I wouldn't continue to
Speaker 3: roll the dice if I had like a winning streak
Speaker 3: or two for two, I.
Speaker 2: Know I should probably, Well, the three is a really
Speaker 2: lucky number. That's where I really cash out. Have you
Speaker 2: ever read the book?
Speaker 1: Tomorrow? Tomorrow Tomorrow.
Speaker 3: It's like literally on my nightstand right now. It almost
Speaker 3: started it this weekend, but I don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been so many people have told me to
Speaker 2: read this book, and I'm reading it and everyone keeps saying, oh,
Speaker 2: I go, isn't it about gaming? And they're like, it
Speaker 2: is about gaming, but it's not about gaming. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: it's all about gaming. The whole book is about gaming.
Speaker 4: See.
Speaker 2: I love that, though, So I'm waiting for the story
Speaker 2: that's not about gaming to happen. But I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: still reading about gaming and it's a slow read for me.
Speaker 1: Oh, you know what everybody has to.
Speaker 2: Watch if they haven't watched American Symphony, they have to
Speaker 2: watch American Symphony.
Speaker 1: But that is fucking amazing.
Speaker 2: And it's a documentary on John Fatiste and his wife
Speaker 2: and she wrote that book Between Two Kingdoms.
Speaker 1: Have you read that book, Catherine?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 3: No, I haven't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great book too.
Speaker 2: It's all about her journey of like being sick and
Speaker 2: she was diagnosed with leukemia when she's like twenty two,
Speaker 2: and her whole life has just basically been one transplant
Speaker 2: after another or after another after another.
Speaker 1: But it's pretty it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what, Chelsea, I thought of you when
Speaker 3: I read this book. I just finished The Island of
Speaker 3: the Sea Women. It came out a few years ago.
Speaker 3: Have you read this?
Speaker 1: No? I haven't. What is that?
Speaker 3: It is fascinating. It's about this matriarchal society in South
Speaker 3: Korea and these women who dive to go get seafood,
Speaker 3: various different seafoods. And because they're the ones who dive,
Speaker 3: they're the ones with the money and the men stay
Speaker 3: home with the kids. But it is a fascinating history
Speaker 3: of South Korea and about these women, and some of
Speaker 3: them are even still alive and continue to dive to
Speaker 3: this day in modern times. It's fantastic. I will bring
Speaker 3: you my copy next week if you want to read it.
Speaker 2: It's okay, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would love that you
Speaker 2: would like it. I'd like any society that's all women.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's like historical fiction, so it gets very very dramatic.
Speaker 3: A lot of shit happens.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
Speaker 2: I like historical fiction too. I didn't used to, but
Speaker 2: I've started to warm up to it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love history.
Speaker 2: Into one of those older people that just loves history.
Speaker 2: I can't get enough of it. The other day, I
Speaker 2: was looking up you know, like, you know how Pearl
Speaker 2: Harbor kind of was the reason that America ended up
Speaker 2: getting into World War two, but they were having their
Speaker 2: own war, the Pacific War in Japan, but Japan had
Speaker 2: allied with Italy and Germany. Because I was like, my
Speaker 2: friend's like, why was Japan involved in World War Two?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I feel like I know the answer
Speaker 2: to this, but I don't, And so I had to
Speaker 2: do a deep dive and so I do love it.
Speaker 1: I do love it. It's something that actually I can
Speaker 1: really focus on as history.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I feel like history is basically just like really good
Speaker 3: gossip about world events. You know, It's stuff that we
Speaker 3: continue to talk about, and it's juicy and it's interesting
Speaker 3: and kind.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm gonna start looking at history as gossip now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was hoping that was my one reprieve from gossip
Speaker 2: because that seems to take up a lot of my time.
Speaker 3: Also, especially when you see sixteen friends in one day.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: People fucking love gossiping, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1: Okay, So who do we have on deck today? What's
Speaker 1: our story?
Speaker 3: Actually, today we're talking with Esther Perell and she is
Speaker 3: on the line.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good morning, Esther. How are you?
Speaker 4: Helloilu, I'm friend, how are you?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you this morning.
Speaker 2: This is Catherine, she's our producer.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 2: There, so exciting. Okay, So, well, everybody knows you. You're
Speaker 2: a very famous psychotherapist who deals with couples, couples therapy,
Speaker 2: sex lives, sex between couples, breakdowns between couples, and you
Speaker 2: are the author of Mating in Captivity, which was a huge,
Speaker 2: huge success, which a lot of people who are listening
Speaker 2: to this podcast have read, as well as the State
Speaker 2: of Affairs. So I know that you are launching a
Speaker 2: course on conflict, which is called Turning Conflict into Connection.
Speaker 2: So let's discuss that conflict and connection.
Speaker 4: Which one are you better at.
Speaker 1: I'm really good at conflict. I'm very good at conflict.
Speaker 5: You know what.
Speaker 2: Actually, it's very funny you mentioned that because I have
Speaker 2: had trouble making connection in the past few months of
Speaker 2: my life. I thought this would be the time for
Speaker 2: me to be like blossoming and meeting someone. So there
Speaker 2: hasn't been a ton of conflict, but there also hasn't
Speaker 2: been a ton of connection.
Speaker 4: What kind of conflict person are you? What's your style style?
Speaker 2: Well, I've been in therapy, so I've nipped my you know,
Speaker 2: my shortcomings in the buds, so to speak. I'm not
Speaker 2: as crazy or scary, I should say, as I used
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 1: I'm much more, you know.
Speaker 2: But I didn't do any tame tame, and I understand
Speaker 2: how to speak about things, and I understand that defensiveness
Speaker 2: is not really a winning argument, you know. But yes,
Speaker 2: I've experienced conflicts in my relationships as everybody has. And
Speaker 2: I feel like I've gotten much better at resolving conflict.
Speaker 2: But you need two participants that are very good at
Speaker 2: resolving conflict, is what I've learned.
Speaker 4: I think the first thing you said that I want
Speaker 4: to highlight is that conflict is intrinsic to relationships. It's
Speaker 4: not that this is part and parcel of it. We disagree,
Speaker 4: we argue, we fight, and sometimes conflict is actually very
Speaker 4: helpful to be dressed wrong, to create a different level
Speaker 4: of engagement, to feel more emboldened, to ask for what
Speaker 4: one wants. I mean, there's a lot of good juice
Speaker 4: in conflict, but then there is also a whole other
Speaker 4: way that people sometimes get trapped into their arguments and
Speaker 4: they're bickering, and there's a range. Right, conflict is a
Speaker 4: word that's like an umbrella underneath it, there are multiple
Speaker 4: tentacles of how we fight. We disagree, we argue, we bicker,
Speaker 4: we do slow you know, low intensity warfare or high
Speaker 4: intensity warfare. But generally what people want is how do
Speaker 4: we fight better? But this doesn't mean resolve things, but
Speaker 4: it's how do we not devolve? How do we not
Speaker 4: fall prey to the traps and the defeating strategies that
Speaker 4: we often have when we fight, Like how do we
Speaker 4: not bring up everything in the relationship all at once
Speaker 4: when we are arguing about one thing. How do we
Speaker 4: not go totalistic and it becomes you always and you never?
Speaker 4: How do we, you know, take responsibility and not feel
Speaker 4: like if I give in an inch, I lost my
Speaker 4: whole sense of pride and my whole identity. How do
Speaker 4: we decide what's wise not to say even if we
Speaker 4: are right that there's a difference between being right and
Speaker 4: being wise. It's all of that. And in these days
Speaker 4: especially where we often have become quite conflict avoidant, it's
Speaker 4: like I don't want to talk to you, I don't
Speaker 4: want I have not we disagree, therefore you're out of
Speaker 4: my life kind of thing. We really could use sharpening
Speaker 4: our social skills for how to be together to deal
Speaker 4: with fighting is not about fighting, it's about actually how
Speaker 4: to relate and how to connect.
Speaker 2: Obviously, the biggest roadblock for relationships is communication, right, I
Speaker 2: mean that's pretty much all roads lead to that.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that or what do you think?
Speaker 4: I think that communication is a word that we often
Speaker 4: use to say, how do I tell you what I
Speaker 4: need think feel. How do I get through to you?
Speaker 4: How I get you to acquiesce with me? How do
Speaker 4: I get you to understand me, to validate me, to
Speaker 4: relate to me. It's okay. It's the buzzwords under which
Speaker 4: a lot is subsumed, which is fine. I prefer to
Speaker 4: think about relating. You know, I asked a question recently
Speaker 4: that became very It's the favorite of mine for the
Speaker 4: last two weeks. You know, you get a question and
Speaker 4: you tried out in many spaces. Did you grow up
Speaker 4: playing freely on the street? I did, Yes, an enormous
Speaker 4: amount of people no longer do that. And what you
Speaker 4: got when you played freely on the street, and I
Speaker 4: asked this in four different countries where I've been touring,
Speaker 4: is that you had unscripted, unmonitored, unchoreographed social interaction. You
Speaker 4: practiced social negotiation. You played, you fought, you made rules,
Speaker 4: you broke rules, you competed, you were jealous, you made friends.
Speaker 4: This whole thing allowed you to learn how to relate
Speaker 4: and to develop social skills. When we say we don't communicate,
Speaker 4: it's not true. We communicate all the time. We communicate
Speaker 4: with silence, we communicate with lift, eyebrows. We communicate with smirks,
Speaker 4: We communicate with moving our head away. We communicate by
Speaker 4: arguing back. We communicate. We're just not communicating in a
Speaker 4: way that connects us. So when people say we don't communicate,
Speaker 4: what they're saying is we're not connecting. We're fighting. We
Speaker 4: are a part. We are experiencing each other as enemies.
Speaker 4: We are saying things as if we don't care about
Speaker 4: the person that we're saying it to, when in fact
Speaker 4: it's the person that we need for their life. We
Speaker 4: communicate non stop, but some of our communication creates productive interactions,
Speaker 4: and some of our commun udication is destructive or defeating
Speaker 4: or disrupting.
Speaker 2: So in the course you talk about that, you talk
Speaker 2: about constructive versus destructive conflict. So can you give us
Speaker 2: an example.
Speaker 1: Of the two?
Speaker 4: Which one shall? I start with the negative, because we
Speaker 4: are very, very creative in our negative ways of how
Speaker 4: we fight. I mean, here are sure bets to torpedo
Speaker 4: your relationship, to undermine it. Right, So we just went
Speaker 4: through one. I'll just name it. It's called kitchen sinking.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 4: We're arguing about whatever you didn't water the plants or
Speaker 4: I asked you to do something and you didn't do it,
Speaker 4: or I forgot one more time, you know whatever. But
Speaker 4: in the course of this argument, we are putting in
Speaker 4: ten years of a relationship, and we put pile up
Speaker 4: all the dirty dishes, and in fact, you can't wash
Speaker 4: a single dish when you've got them all piled up
Speaker 4: on top of each other. Or I disqualify everything you say.
Speaker 4: You can give me ten things, and all these things
Speaker 4: I actually have no problem with, but I'll argue with
Speaker 4: the one thing that I have that I can disagree
Speaker 4: with you on, you know, like seriously, that becomes really
Speaker 4: of biblical proportion, you know, basically looking for evidence that
Speaker 4: reinforces my belief. I fundamentally think you don't care about me,
Speaker 4: and everything that I bring up are proofs that I
Speaker 4: am right, even if it's the thing I want to
Speaker 4: feel the least. I mean, the last thing I want
Speaker 4: to believe is that you don't care about me. But
Speaker 4: I'm going to prove you that you don't care about me,
Speaker 4: and it's so twisted. I'm also going to, of course
Speaker 4: think that when I was late, it's because there was traffic,
Speaker 4: you know, but when you are late, it's because you
Speaker 4: are really not attentive and not responsible. Mine is circumstantial,
Speaker 4: yours is characterological. Those are some of the you know,
Speaker 4: the classic negatives we escalate. I say something, you bring
Speaker 4: up something else that is bigger than mine, and then
Speaker 4: I say, yeah, you really want to talk about it.
Speaker 4: Let me remind you this one, you know. And in
Speaker 4: the end we've both completely polarized and lonely in our corners,
Speaker 4: and you know, where's the relationship? But it's productive. It's
Speaker 4: I'm really pissed, you know, and I want to tell
Speaker 4: you why, and you tell it, and you don't, and
Speaker 4: you don't go cursing the person, and you don't go
Speaker 4: you always, you never, you know, and you go to
Speaker 4: totalistic in your categorical thinking. You stick to the point
Speaker 4: you put. You express your anger, you're discontent, your disbelief,
Speaker 4: you're even you know, your fury doesn't matter, it's okay.
Speaker 4: And then you say what you have to say, and
Speaker 4: now you shut up and you listen for a minute,
Speaker 4: and hopefully on the other side there's someone who either says,
Speaker 4: I get it while you're so pissed, or it's really
Speaker 4: hard for me to hear how pissed you are, because
Speaker 4: it was really not my intention. That's absolutely not what
Speaker 4: I thought about this, or you have a point, this
Speaker 4: is true. A person earlier today says to me and
Speaker 4: he says, you know, I really want to I want
Speaker 4: us to be close. I want us to do things.
Speaker 4: I want us to go out, I want to say,
Speaker 4: And then she says, he says, you're not there. You're
Speaker 4: not there. And then she says, give me an example.
Speaker 4: That's like the killer one. Give me an example, because
Speaker 4: the first thing you're going to do with the example
Speaker 4: is shut it down, right. So he gives examples, and
Speaker 4: so of course she argues with every example, and she
Speaker 4: tries to say and basically he says, but you're there
Speaker 4: for all your friends, you know, and you're just not there.
Speaker 4: And basically I said to her, it's like, but you
Speaker 4: agree with him, Why don't you just tell him you're right?
Speaker 4: For some reason, I have an energy for my friends
Speaker 4: I don't have for you. And I'm sorry, I get
Speaker 4: it why it's upsetting to you, And honestly it's upsetting
Speaker 4: to me too, because I actually don't understand why I
Speaker 4: have zero energy to bring into our relationship. That makes
Speaker 4: a conversation very short. Rather than arguing with every example
Speaker 4: that he gave to prove to him that he shouldn't
Speaker 4: feel lonely because she's really present, she's not.
Speaker 2: But so, then what's the next step when somebody like
Speaker 2: admits something like that, like, you're right, I don't have
Speaker 2: the energy for you that I have for my girlfriends,
Speaker 2: then what And I.
Speaker 4: Don't know why, And I completely can see why that's
Speaker 4: upsetting to you, And you know what, it's upsetting to
Speaker 4: me too because I don't understand it and I don't
Speaker 4: like it, and I don't know what to do about it.
Speaker 4: But I'm gonna take I'm gonna take it seriously. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: So that's the beginning, Is you acknowledge a shared reality,
Speaker 4: then then what? Then you often go from the anger
Speaker 4: to the sadness, to the longing to the yearning to the.
Speaker 2: Loss, which is a nicer place to be to start
Speaker 2: a conversation. Absolutely well, okay, so talk about explosives versus implosives.
Speaker 4: So imagine explosives. Is I'm one, you know, when I
Speaker 4: get in there, my volume goes up, you know, and
Speaker 4: if you don't answer, my value goes my volume goes
Speaker 4: up a little more, you know. And I'm living with
Speaker 4: someone who the higher I go, the quieter they go.
Speaker 4: And they think that because they're quiet at some point,
Speaker 4: you know, quite people sometimes thinks if I don't say anything,
Speaker 4: at some point, she will stop. But of course she
Speaker 4: or whoever that person is, doesn't necessarily stop, because if
Speaker 4: you don't answer, then I feel like I'm talking to
Speaker 4: the wind. And then I just become more and more
Speaker 4: vociferous because there is no container. Whereas if you just
Speaker 4: said to me, I get it, I hear you something,
Speaker 4: then I know my point has crossed the bridge and
Speaker 4: has arrived on the other side of the river. You know.
Speaker 4: So what you have is people who are fighters, people
Speaker 4: who are more into flight, and sometimes you have a
Speaker 4: dynamic where you have one fight, one flight, and it
Speaker 4: goes like this. So there's three primary choreographies. These are
Speaker 4: just ways of organizing what we see and so that
Speaker 4: we can enter. You know, it's like, what's the theater
Speaker 4: of this argument? How do these people? How do these
Speaker 4: people get stuck? What do they say and what do
Speaker 4: they do to each other? And whether are they not
Speaker 4: saying or doing that would make it better for them
Speaker 4: when they go into this cycle of conflict?
Speaker 2: And do do you meet with people a lot where
Speaker 2: you feel like this must have happened. I don't know
Speaker 2: if this is a frequent thing where you feel like
Speaker 2: one of the partners is just unable to do the
Speaker 2: work or to be able to hear the other person,
Speaker 2: and that you found the situation hopeless, or do you
Speaker 2: feel like there's always a kernel of something you can
Speaker 2: deliver to them to help them engage.
Speaker 4: I'll do my best, and sometimes I think not yet
Speaker 4: or not today. You know, I'm thinking of an episode
Speaker 4: in the podcast, and where should we begin? Where they
Speaker 4: have vicious fights, so they both explode. When she asks
Speaker 4: him to do something, he instantly hears his dad giving
Speaker 4: him orders. When he doesn't do what she asks, she
Speaker 4: instantly experiences once again, I'm going to be all alone.
Speaker 4: I took care of everybody in my family growing up,
Speaker 4: and this puts me right back there again. It's all
Speaker 4: on me. And so the first thing you do that
Speaker 4: you hope people can transition with you is instead of
Speaker 4: what is it that you're fighting about like the cat
Speaker 4: litter in their case, it's what is it that you're
Speaker 4: fighting for, which in her case is I'm fighting not
Speaker 4: to be all alone? In his case, is I'm fighting
Speaker 4: not to be dismissed by my father. I was going
Speaker 4: to put an adjective, but I want. And what I
Speaker 4: ended up doing with them, which was really, you know,
Speaker 4: you try anything you can when you've got this crescendo going.
Speaker 4: I just said, at one point, can I just ask
Speaker 4: you something? Would you please both life flat on the
Speaker 4: floor and continue the argument. Now, there's something about when
Speaker 4: we fight, we like we are mammals. We are upright,
Speaker 4: our shoulders go up, our neck goes in, our clothes
Speaker 4: come out, you know. But if you lie flat on
Speaker 4: the floor, it's kind of hard to continue. So you
Speaker 4: go into the body. You try through the instrument of
Speaker 4: the body to say, you know, let's let's see if
Speaker 4: I can get you unglued from these inevitable corners where
Speaker 4: you find yourself. On occasion, somebody says I'm not lying down,
Speaker 4: or this is ridiculous, or what's that going to do?
Speaker 4: Or why shall I? Or why me? You know why
Speaker 4: you keep pointing your finger at me? And then you
Speaker 4: come back the next time and you say, this is
Speaker 4: not about pointing a finger at you, because but you
Speaker 4: don't want to live like this, you wouldn't be here.
Speaker 4: Of course, I understand coupos therapy is sometimes a drop
Speaker 4: off center, right, you bring your partner to get fixed,
Speaker 4: and you say and you say, I'm an expert and
Speaker 4: I can help you if.
Speaker 1: You need Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: It's like I've been a therapy, let me show you
Speaker 2: the way exactly. It never works either. Okay, we're going
Speaker 2: to take a quick break and then we're going to
Speaker 2: come back and take some callers.
Speaker 1: And we're back.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about the pressure it must. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously this is your chosen career and you're very successful
Speaker 2: at it, but the pressure that you must feel with
Speaker 2: couples coming in because I know I've been a couples
Speaker 2: therapy and I was like, all right, it's on you.
Speaker 2: If you can save this relationship, great, but this is
Speaker 2: your responsibility now. I mean, the pressure you must feel
Speaker 2: must be immense.
Speaker 4: So the first thing I want to tell you, Chelsea
Speaker 4: is I've met you before, like I know this entrance
Speaker 4: point and my typical The first thought that comes to
Speaker 4: mind is I cannot want this more than you need
Speaker 4: to want it yourself, because it's not my relationship. I
Speaker 4: cannot take this song where I care more about what's
Speaker 4: going to happen to the two of you than you.
Speaker 4: So I care a ton, but I am disempowered. If
Speaker 4: I care more than the person whose own relationship is
Speaker 4: at stake, I feel a tremendousness of responsibility. I also
Speaker 4: think that often people come past do date, and you know,
Speaker 4: it depends what good will is left, how much people
Speaker 4: really want this to change. If they just want to
Speaker 4: be right, then there's a good chance that they will
Speaker 4: be right and alone right.
Speaker 3: And from there let's transition into colors.
Speaker 1: Our first question is not.
Speaker 3: Really about conflict, but Crystal is our email center today.
Speaker 3: Dear Chelsea. When I was thirty seven, I was diagnosed
Speaker 3: with breast cancer and had to go through it, all
Speaker 3: of it all at once, freezing my eggs, double mistectomy,
Speaker 3: and chemo. Two years later and I'm on the other
Speaker 3: side of it, cancer free and finally feeling ready to
Speaker 3: date and have sex again. Here's the thing. I had
Speaker 3: reconstructive surgery shortly after I was diagnosed. My new boobs
Speaker 3: look perfectly fine. They aren't in ten and two positions
Speaker 3: or anything, but they're pretty hard and they are spots.
Speaker 3: I can feel the crinkle of the implants. When I
Speaker 3: asked my surgeon if they were ever going to feel
Speaker 3: any better, She explained, They're never going to fully feel
Speaker 3: like real boobs since my milk ducks and fat toooshore
Speaker 3: are gone, it's just the bags in there. It was
Speaker 3: upsetting to wrap my heat around, but it is what
Speaker 3: it is. I guess I should be thankful that I
Speaker 3: still have my nipples. Here are my questions now that
Speaker 3: I'm about to start dating again. Should I tell a
Speaker 3: guy about my boobs if I want to have sex
Speaker 3: with him? Do I not say anything? Because it's a heavy,
Speaker 3: awkward conversation and frankly a turn off. If I don't
Speaker 3: say anything, I'm worried I'll be super self conscious during
Speaker 3: sex and be caught up studying his reaction. Also, how
Speaker 3: do I mentally prepare myself in case some guy says
Speaker 3: something insensitive or has a less than desirable reaction? How
Speaker 3: do I reframe this very deep insecurity for myself? Thanks
Speaker 3: for all you do, Crystal.
Speaker 2: Okay, Esther, why don't you go first? Since you're the professional,
Speaker 2: So I'll just tell you what came up for me
Speaker 2: as I'm listening to you, Crystal, is that you are
Speaker 2: a thirty six near old woman who has just gone
Speaker 2: through a huge experience, and you have gone through something
Speaker 2: that most of us do not know, and you're coming
Speaker 2: out on the other side, and you want to re
Speaker 2: engage with life, and you want to reconnect with the
Speaker 2: erotic force inside of you, and that is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 2: And you are a woman with a whole body and
Speaker 2: all kinds of other organs, and your biggest organ is
Speaker 2: your skin, and you're focusing on one thing, your boobs.
Speaker 2: If you had her piece, it would be a different story.
Speaker 2: It would affect the other person. In this case, this
Speaker 2: is yours.
Speaker 4: And as you get to know the person you're dating,
Speaker 4: at some point you'd start to talk about what have
Speaker 4: been some important experiences in your life, and you'll probably
Speaker 4: end up talking about, I had cancer very young, and
Speaker 4: this is what happened to me, and part of that
Speaker 4: you know, and how do you feel today? Well, one
Speaker 4: thing that I have is this, but I am alive
Speaker 4: and I am healthy, and all of that proceeds, and
Speaker 4: that's where you will draw your sense of strength and
Speaker 4: your resilience and your confidence rather than just focusing on
Speaker 4: the insecurity may not necessarily be a turn off. You
Speaker 4: don't know if you mind somebody, for whom you know
Speaker 4: your breast are their fati ish short while, but bring
Speaker 4: the rest of who you are to the experience, and
Speaker 4: at some point when you feel more comfortable, when you
Speaker 4: feel a little more trusting, when you've heard a little
Speaker 4: bit of the reactions about other things, then you just say
Speaker 4: and then you ask how does that information land on
Speaker 4: you? You know, lead it, don't be too scared. And most
Speaker 4: of the time the people won't know what to say.
Speaker 4: So if you hold the conversation and you lead it
Speaker 4: with confidence, you will feel so empowered. Actually, what is
Speaker 4: it like for you that this is a situation? Is
Speaker 4: that even important to you? You can be a wonderful
Speaker 4: lover regardless of what happens to your breasts. And that's
Speaker 4: what we matters is what you end up experiencing together
Speaker 4: with this person. If they end up focusing just on that,
Speaker 4: you probably have the wrong address.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also I would like to say additionally, there
Speaker 2: are so many things as a woman that I get
Speaker 2: turned off by from men if I'm on a date
Speaker 2: or whatever, and when you really like someone, that all
Speaker 2: flies away. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know, every woman
Speaker 2: has something they're insecure about. Anyway, You're just focusing on
Speaker 2: that because that is your issue right now. But what
Speaker 2: you know, what Esther said is so much more important
Speaker 2: and valuable. You're alive, you're healthy, you're ready to mingle.
Speaker 2: You want to have some action, Like you want to
Speaker 2: be in love and be in a relationship. That's more
Speaker 2: important than a couple of lumps or bumps or whatever.
Speaker 2: You feel like, is it perfect about your breast? Every
Speaker 2: woman has a body part that they're not happy about,
Speaker 2: you know. Eventually you just have to get over it
Speaker 2: and realize what your attributes are or what the best
Speaker 2: things about you are that you love, you know, and
Speaker 2: then that comes across too.
Speaker 1: So yeah, get out there, sister.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you know, Sarah, I'm so glad
Speaker 3: you brought up like that. Might be somebody who's like
Speaker 3: a fetish or you know, some guys are like that's
Speaker 3: what they love. They love fake boobs, so they're like
Speaker 3: very into that.
Speaker 2: Or they might be an ass man who knows, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they might not care about boobs at all. So it's
Speaker 2: like you're worrying about something that you're creating a worry
Speaker 2: that you don't have to. You know, you go out
Speaker 2: there and just and be your lovely, beautiful self. Everybody
Speaker 2: has a little thing that they don't like, so you're
Speaker 2: not alone in that. And the more important thing is
Speaker 2: that you're healthy and you're able to go on dates.
Speaker 4: I think the concern is real, you know. I think
Speaker 4: I understand the question, and I really appreciate you asking
Speaker 4: the question because you're just coming out and there is
Speaker 4: this kind of you know, who am I now? And
Speaker 4: there is a sense that this is not the body
Speaker 4: that you knew. But you will find yourself more at
Speaker 4: ease inside your own skin as you did people and
Speaker 4: hopefully you did mature people for whom what matters is
Speaker 4: what is created between the two of you, not what
Speaker 4: hangs on you.
Speaker 3: What would you say is the right sort of timing
Speaker 3: to bring this up?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 3: You know, obviously it's not while you're like walking in
Speaker 3: the front door making out, but you know, is it
Speaker 3: early on? Is that after you've kind of gotten to
Speaker 3: know the person? Is it maybe after you've even had
Speaker 3: sex ones?
Speaker 4: You know, I don't think there's a rule on these things,
Speaker 4: but I think that what you want is a broader conversation.
Speaker 4: The conversation is, you know, it can be Have you
Speaker 4: ever had transformative experiences. Have ever been close to death?
Speaker 4: Have you ever felt physically vulnerable? Have you known fear?
Speaker 4: Have you know? You know, there's other questions that are
Speaker 4: broad questions, and then you bring that question to you
Speaker 4: and you say, actually, yes, I once was diagnosed with cancer.
Speaker 4: And so that's how it's brought in. It's not like
Speaker 4: this is part of your CV, you know, and you
Speaker 4: have to share this as your data. You know, this
Speaker 4: is not data. This is stuff that grows out of
Speaker 4: exploration and discovery of two people who get to know
Speaker 4: each other. And you may find that, you know, you
Speaker 4: have no idea what people bring, what the experiences people have.
Speaker 4: You know, they may not have had cancer themselves, but
Speaker 4: there's a good chance that they know somebody who died
Speaker 4: of it or who had it or survived it, or
Speaker 4: you know. So it's that conversation. It has to do
Speaker 4: with trust, it has to do with context. This was
Speaker 4: a good moment to say it. They don't say it
Speaker 4: when you naked, I actually would not. Don't say it
Speaker 4: while you're walking together and you know, in your in motion,
Speaker 4: so that the stress can also kind of evacuate through
Speaker 4: the through the body, and don't bring it as I
Speaker 4: have a secret to tell you. This is not a secret,
Speaker 4: and it's not a piece of data. You don't owe anything.
Speaker 4: This is as we're getting to know each other, one
Speaker 4: of the important things to know about me is this
Speaker 4: experience that I had, as I have had other very
Speaker 4: important experiences, but maybe this one has shaped me even
Speaker 4: more than anything else. And in the course of that
Speaker 4: experience you talk about you know, actually one of the
Speaker 4: things that has stayed with me is that I had
Speaker 4: to have reconstructive surgery. And you don't say is that
Speaker 4: okay with you? You just sis, that's the part. It's
Speaker 4: a piece of my life that's.
Speaker 1: Not okay with you.
Speaker 3: Awesome wheur next question comes from Sammy. She is thirty six.
Speaker 3: Dear Chelsea. Last year, three days before I moved in
Speaker 3: with my sister, her husband informed me that they now
Speaker 3: have an open marriage and my sister is dating a
Speaker 3: twenty two year old gal. Needless to say, I was
Speaker 3: a little shocked and put off by the situation. Polyamory
Speaker 3: in general doesn't bother me, but my sister and her
Speaker 3: husband already don't have the strongest marriage. Bringing in this
Speaker 3: third person has proven nothing more than the catastrophe you'd
Speaker 3: imagine On top of that, they tend to be so
Speaker 3: wrapped up in the relationship they completely forget they have children.
Speaker 3: I hear several times a week from both of them,
Speaker 3: I need to spend more time with the kids, but
Speaker 3: this is never done. In fact, they spend more time
Speaker 3: fighting about their situation than anything. Then they make up
Speaker 3: and watch Big Love or Sister Wives and pretend they
Speaker 3: have this perfect union. A few months later, the girl
Speaker 3: moved into the house. She isn't working or going to school.
Speaker 3: My sister and brother in law have added her to
Speaker 3: their bank accounts now and their will and as an
Speaker 3: emergency contact for kids at the school, literally leaving me
Speaker 3: to be nothing but a babysitter when they want to
Speaker 3: do things as a threatle They've basically made me the
Speaker 3: enforcer of rules, chores, etc. Furthermore, I pay rent to
Speaker 3: live here, and the paramour does not big surprise. I know.
Speaker 3: I went from being the cool aunt to the mean aunt,
Speaker 3: and all I want is for my nieces and nephews
Speaker 3: to give me the same love and respect they give
Speaker 3: their other aunts and uncles. I love my sister and
Speaker 3: the kids, but this whole situation is nothing more than
Speaker 3: a disaster. Waiting to blow up bigger than it already is.
Speaker 3: I'll eventually move out of the house. I told my
Speaker 3: sister when I moved in, i'd stay for two years
Speaker 3: to help with the mortgage, etc. And I plan to
Speaker 3: keep my word on that. But what can I do
Speaker 3: in the meantime? Love and respect, Sammy.
Speaker 5: Hi, sam Hi, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: What a hot mess of a situation your Oh no.
Speaker 5: Not understatement of the year.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, Astair, you go first. I'm dying
Speaker 2: to hear what you have to say about this.
Speaker 4: What are you doing there? Seriously? I mean, I offered
Speaker 4: to pay for the mortgage, and I'm going to keep
Speaker 4: my commitment. I mean, what where is your life?
Speaker 5: I was in a place where, you know, I was
Speaker 5: struggling on my own, so I was happy to come
Speaker 5: help my sister out with her family, and I had
Speaker 5: a place to stay in a reof over my head.
Speaker 5: But I wasn't expecting all of it.
Speaker 4: Okay, but now things have changed, so you may have
Speaker 4: had very good reasons for why you chose to do
Speaker 4: this back then. This is absolutely not a judgment, but
Speaker 4: now it's like, why what are you doing there? Why
Speaker 4: are you doing this, Let them be, let them swim
Speaker 4: in their own messes, and be available to the kids
Speaker 4: if you want to and have a life of your own.
Speaker 4: You're absorbing this whole drama that isn't yours and that
Speaker 4: doesn't need a fight, that just needs simply I think
Speaker 4: that at this moment, your life's have evolved in a
Speaker 4: certain way and I need to retreat and kind of
Speaker 4: resume my own track. What's standing in the way of
Speaker 4: your doing.
Speaker 5: That currently finances, I'm working on paying some stuff back,
Speaker 5: some loans back, So as soon as that is all
Speaker 5: taking care of, my goal is to run as fast
Speaker 5: as I can.
Speaker 4: And you're paying rent, right, So can you pay that
Speaker 4: rent to somebody else?
Speaker 5: Yes, but probably not as nice of the rent that
Speaker 5: I'm paying now. I'm still paying rent, but it's still
Speaker 5: significantly less than my own place, for sure.
Speaker 4: You know. But is there somebody else? Can you rent
Speaker 4: a room in someone else's big house?
Speaker 1: Possibly?
Speaker 5: I mean I've looked. I'm on you know, Facebook, sites
Speaker 5: with renting rooms and that kind of stuff, and I've
Speaker 5: been reaching out and inquire. But a lot of it
Speaker 5: is I have a dog and a cat, and a
Speaker 5: lot of people don't allow pats. So that's kind of
Speaker 5: a little bit of a wall too. So I'm I'm
Speaker 5: actively working on it, and I have you know, friends
Speaker 5: that are looking and helping me as well.
Speaker 4: But I think that that's the primary You know, this
Speaker 4: is not about what do you tell your sister, what
Speaker 4: do you tell the other woman? What you tell you know,
Speaker 4: it's really challenging when you are in the midst of
Speaker 4: another family and you see things that hurt other people
Speaker 4: and therefore hurt you. So you watch the little Smurfs
Speaker 4: and you say, I feel for them. Nobody's attending to them.
Speaker 4: I have to be here, but nobody appreciates what I do,
Speaker 4: so here I am. So I'm in a bind because
Speaker 4: I want to attend to them. But it's but you know,
Speaker 4: what did you call it? The hired maid? And you
Speaker 4: know you'll continue your relationship with them, but you don't
Speaker 4: want to be in a situation where you taught you
Speaker 4: were becoming coming in as a special person, as the
Speaker 4: sister of as this family member, as the savior of
Speaker 4: the day. So this is what's happened, is that you
Speaker 4: feel devalued and you feel like you lost you know,
Speaker 4: you have zero status and you feel taken for granted
Speaker 4: and you feel underappreciated, and this whole scenario it won't
Speaker 4: change necessarily. You can have a conversation and just say
Speaker 4: here's what I'm is going on, and then they may
Speaker 4: either say, yes, this is true, or they may say
Speaker 4: you're oversensitive. You know, you're making a big deal out
Speaker 4: of nothing, or what is actually do you want for
Speaker 4: us to give you a price at the end of
Speaker 4: every week? Or you know, you may be appreciated or dismissed.
Speaker 4: But there's also another way to just say this is
Speaker 4: not my place at this moment, and so if you
Speaker 4: are actively looking, that's probably what I would suggest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the best way you said you're
Speaker 2: helping your sister. You had committed to helping your sister
Speaker 2: pay with the rent. Is that part of the reason
Speaker 2: you moved in?
Speaker 5: Yeah, because honestly, the house that they bought, they bought
Speaker 5: it at kind of a crazy time, And I think
Speaker 5: they're kind of financially dependent on me too. So I
Speaker 5: think a big reason that she hasn't already like kicked
Speaker 5: me out is because they're dependent on that income.
Speaker 4: Right, So that becomes very eky. Right, you need to
Speaker 4: stay because you have the money tissue, and you need
Speaker 4: them and they need you to stay. They would everybody
Speaker 4: would rather not be together, but we all have financially
Speaker 4: dependent on each other, and so it becomes this ekey thing.
Speaker 4: I don't want to be with you, but I have
Speaker 4: no choice. I don't want to be with you, but
Speaker 4: I have no choice, right right?
Speaker 3: And Sammie, can I ask how old the kids are?
Speaker 5: They are twelve?
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, Well, you know, I mentioning that the kids
Speaker 2: have you feel like the kids have lost respect for you.
Speaker 2: I would say I would attribute that to you allowing
Speaker 2: yourself to be caught up in this situation. You moving
Speaker 2: out would be another way to reclaim their respect for
Speaker 2: you because you tolerating this situation. Also, as in setting
Speaker 2: the greatest example, I know you probably feel a little
Speaker 2: bit responsible because they are your niece and nephews, but
Speaker 2: your responsibility, a first and foremost is to yourself, is
Speaker 2: to get yourself out of that situation, and then you
Speaker 2: can be actively a much better influence at and all
Speaker 2: of the things that you are to them by kind
Speaker 2: of extricating yourself. I mean, I agree, you've got to
Speaker 2: get yourself out of that situation because listen, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of judgment coming from you, and maybe rightfully so
Speaker 2: because it does sound like a hot mess. But that's
Speaker 2: not good for any dynamic at all. You're all just
Speaker 2: gonna get pissed and bitter. The twenty two year old
Speaker 2: girl should be paying rent. You shouldn't be working and
Speaker 2: paying rent. It's one or the other, you know. If
Speaker 2: you're staying there, if you're babysitting for them all the time,
Speaker 2: then why are you paying rent?
Speaker 1: But listen, forget about all that convoluted stuff.
Speaker 2: It's just more important you'll find somebody who accepts a
Speaker 2: cat and dog, get a nice, humble room so you
Speaker 2: can work to pay off what you need to pay
Speaker 2: off in this interim time and reclaim your self respect
Speaker 2: because you're not in a situation where you're feeling respectful
Speaker 2: towards yourself because of the people that you're surrounded with. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I think you will feel better getting out of there,
Speaker 2: you know, and you will have less judgment towards them
Speaker 2: when it's not in your face every single day.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you would be a very good therapist.
Speaker 1: Ah, thank you.
Speaker 3: Making sure that the kids know that you're available to
Speaker 3: them and having that conversation with them, even though right
Speaker 3: now they kind of like are annoyed with you or
Speaker 3: whatever because you're the only one setting any rules. Like,
Speaker 3: they're probably gonna be a little fearal for a little
Speaker 3: while because you know, mom and dad aren't paying attention.
Speaker 3: But like checking in with them, letting them know that
Speaker 3: you're there, I think is maybe the best thing that
Speaker 3: you can do.
Speaker 1: And be firm.
Speaker 2: Listen, be firm with kids. Kids like boundaries, even if
Speaker 2: they don't act like it. It works. It always works
Speaker 2: to be firm as an adult with children so that
Speaker 2: they know where you stand and they're not going to
Speaker 2: take advantage of you.
Speaker 1: You're not going to put up with any bullshit. You
Speaker 1: know you're there. You love them, They can come to you.
Speaker 2: It's your love is unconditional, but you're not going to
Speaker 2: put up with any sort of behavior.
Speaker 5: Awesome, Thank you so much. I think it's kind of
Speaker 5: the kick in the butt that I need, because you know,
Speaker 5: you can tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself,
Speaker 5: but you know you kind of have to hear it
Speaker 5: from an outside source before you can really give yourself
Speaker 5: the p.
Speaker 4: It's said with care from the three of us.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, no, I know that.
Speaker 1: I know that.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sending you lots of love and I'm sure
Speaker 2: you'll find a place soon, so keep on trucking.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: It was a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thanks Sammy, Bye bye.
Speaker 1: That is really one hot mess of a situation, I know.
Speaker 3: And having added this one to their will and their
Speaker 3: bank accounts, I'm like, oh geez, what is going on?
Speaker 1: Well, bank accounts? What is that about? What I mean?
Speaker 1: Those are they on ecstasy? Like what are they thinking?
Speaker 3: Let's I imagine so.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: Our next caller is Laura, and she had a bit
Speaker 3: of a traumatic experience, but is wondering how this is
Speaker 3: going to affect her daughter. So Laura says, I'm now
Speaker 3: thirty seven, but when I was eighteen, I was invited
Speaker 3: to a party by an older guy. My friend and
Speaker 3: her boyfriend came with, but my interaction with this guy
Speaker 3: quickly went south. He pushed me with full force into
Speaker 3: a bush on the side of the house where no
Speaker 3: one was and jumped on top of me. Even typing this,
Speaker 3: it makes me feel so angry. My friend and her
Speaker 3: boyfriend thankfully noticed I was gone, came looking for me,
Speaker 3: and rustled him off of me. Almost twenty years later,
Speaker 3: I live in a small town and he is a
Speaker 3: cop here. Seeing him makes me so uncomfortable. I'm married
Speaker 3: now and my husband fully knows the whole story and
Speaker 3: hates him deeply too. But i have a beautiful young
Speaker 3: daughter I'm raising, and I'm so deeply terrified of the
Speaker 3: what ifs for her experience with males. How do I
Speaker 3: cope with the fear of what could happen? I know
Speaker 3: it's not useful or helpful to me at all, but
Speaker 3: it's hard not to be so scared.
Speaker 2: Laura Hi Kutie esther perel Lisa here today as our
Speaker 2: special guest.
Speaker 4: Lui lu oh wow Hi.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the guy is a police officer in your neighborhood.
Speaker 4: Have you and him actually met after the yes, since
Speaker 4: he's yes now as the and do you have a
Speaker 4: sense when you meet him that he knows that you
Speaker 4: know that he knows?
Speaker 6: Oh, one hundred percent. One hundred percent. Actually, three or
Speaker 6: four weeks ago, my husband's truck got broken into and
Speaker 6: we called the police, and he, of course was the
Speaker 6: officer to show up, and then my husband knows. But
Speaker 6: it was very uncomfortable because I mean, I have zero
Speaker 6: trust in him, obviously because of what he did to me. So,
Speaker 6: I mean, it just kind of felt like, I don't
Speaker 6: know how to put it, but like, no matter what,
Speaker 6: he didn't really care as much, you know, because he
Speaker 6: knew what I knew, and he had no idea that
Speaker 6: I guess he kind of like thought it was a
Speaker 6: secret team he and I. I could kind of tell
Speaker 6: he didn't think I had told my husband. I could tell,
Speaker 6: but and at the time, my husband's not very confrontational,
Speaker 6: so I wasn't gonna say anything about it not so
Speaker 6: he didn't want to embarrass me.
Speaker 5: But yeah, it was.
Speaker 6: It was very uncomfortable. And then he gave me his
Speaker 6: email address too, so I could send video footage of
Speaker 6: the guy who got into the truck. So just I
Speaker 6: felt like a never ending process because I didn't want
Speaker 6: to speak to him or see him ever again.
Speaker 4: But I mean that's impossible in this town. Do you
Speaker 4: ever want to have a conversation with him? Do you
Speaker 4: feel the need to tell him, you know, I want
Speaker 4: this to be clear between us.
Speaker 6: I've thought about that and I don't know if I
Speaker 6: I think it would just be for me because he
Speaker 6: doesn't seem remorseful, and I can only tell by you know,
Speaker 6: how he handled the situation recently, but even at the
Speaker 6: time and the person he's been since then towards me,
Speaker 6: he doesn't seem like he would ever care, like at all,
Speaker 6: it would never affect him.
Speaker 4: Okay, then we have a thing. But then you're asking
Speaker 4: about your d I think. But when when I listened
Speaker 4: to the story, here's what came up to me. You
Speaker 4: had good friends who went with you. Yes, yeah, you
Speaker 4: had friends who instantly noticed when you were not there,
Speaker 4: thank goodness. Yes. So what this tells you is their
Speaker 4: situation where you don't go alone. There are situations where
Speaker 4: you go with very close friends and you have a
Speaker 4: little quick code in advance. If any of us is
Speaker 4: absent for more than you know, we go looking. And
Speaker 4: you teach that to your daughter. You don't teach fear,
Speaker 4: but you teach the need to understand, to have good
Speaker 4: judgment and to have situations where, especially if there's going
Speaker 4: to be drinking involved or this or that, to never
Speaker 4: just be on your own because we need to watch
Speaker 4: out for each other. And then later, much later, I fact,
Speaker 4: at some point it matters. You just say, you know,
Speaker 4: part of why I'm so vigilant is because and I
Speaker 4: just want to make sure that you know this never
Speaker 4: happens to you, and it's okay to tell. You don't
Speaker 4: have to give details, but you can just say, you know,
Speaker 4: I once went to a party and this is what happened.
Speaker 4: You don't have to see who it is or any
Speaker 4: of that, but just to say, my vigilance comes from somewhere,
Speaker 4: it is. It has a good intention. I'm not here
Speaker 4: to to restrain you and control you, and that's it.
Speaker 4: You're part of You will remain vigilant. Sometimes you will
Speaker 4: feel hyper vigilant. Sometimes you will just feel reasonably careful.
Speaker 4: And sometimes you won't know if you are being too
Speaker 4: much of something or too little of something, because once
Speaker 4: you have these kind of experiences that take you outside
Speaker 4: of the limits, then you don't. Then that's what gets shaken,
Speaker 4: is the sense of the container the limits. Where is safety?
Speaker 4: Am I being overly careful? Am I being overly casual?
Speaker 4: And that is a part of what we stay with
Speaker 4: when we have had boundaries infringed upon like that?
Speaker 6: Right, No, that makes sense. I guess they call me
Speaker 6: like a helicopter mom. I guess you'd say I'm like
Speaker 6: extra worried all the time, and I feel like I'm
Speaker 6: constantly on if that makes sense.
Speaker 4: Yes, of course, of course, but you also want to
Speaker 4: teach her as best you can to recognize the science,
Speaker 4: because if you take over and you become the watchtower,
Speaker 4: then you actually don't then she may have underdeveloped skills
Speaker 4: that she could develop herself. It's that fine balance that
Speaker 4: you want to You want to be careful for her,
Speaker 4: but you don't want to take over to the point
Speaker 4: where she becomes less capable of being in the world
Speaker 4: because you are her flashlight. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's very sagacious advice. And I also would
Speaker 2: just add that, you know, back to him being a
Speaker 2: police officer in your community, you don't have to have
Speaker 2: him show up if and when you ever need the
Speaker 2: police to come to your house again. There's no reason
Speaker 2: that you ever have to interact with him again. You
Speaker 2: can easily. I know you live in a small town,
Speaker 2: but there's no reason that you can't go to the
Speaker 2: police station and be very honest. I mean, I know
Speaker 2: you probably don't want to start something in a very
Speaker 2: small town, but say I don't want him coming to
Speaker 2: my house ever again, like this has to you know,
Speaker 2: if there's an emergency. I want even in you know
Speaker 2: you're not gonna want to do it in the moment
Speaker 2: of it urgency, But he doesn't care, just like you
Speaker 2: said he didn't care about your car being stolen. There's
Speaker 2: no reason you have to sit with your somebody who
Speaker 2: assaulted you in that dynamic. You can very clearly go
Speaker 2: in there, explain what happened and say I'm not I
Speaker 2: don't want this police officer, or you can leave out
Speaker 2: the story and just say I don't want this police
Speaker 2: officer ever coming to my house again, you know, and
Speaker 2: let them be very clear about the fact that in
Speaker 2: case of an emergency or anything else that comes up,
Speaker 2: that they can't send him there. You know that's not
Speaker 2: fair to you, and that's ridiculous. You could press you know,
Speaker 2: you could have pressed charges if you wanted to. Obviously
Speaker 2: there's a statute of limitations, but you know that is
Speaker 2: not okay for him to come to your house and
Speaker 2: you have to interact with him as somebody who's going.
Speaker 3: To protect you, Yeah, and retraumatize you. Have you had
Speaker 3: any therapy around that experience, specifically, because I can feel
Speaker 3: it in your body still even just reading your email.
Speaker 6: Actually, the year after words. I went to my guydecologists
Speaker 6: for my appointment, and I know it sounds silly because
Speaker 6: I was eighteen at the time, but I always my
Speaker 6: mom goes with me, so my mom was there and
Speaker 6: he asked in front of my mom even if something
Speaker 6: had happened to me physically, so of course then the
Speaker 6: conversation got brought up with my mom. So I did
Speaker 6: see a counselor after that. But actually here as of lately,
Speaker 6: just with stuff going on with my daughter, I got
Speaker 6: back into therapy online and it's been very resourceful for
Speaker 6: me with everything going on. But here lately we've started
Speaker 6: to like dig deeper into the past. So I think now,
Speaker 6: especially talking with you guys, I think it would be
Speaker 6: a good idea to bring it up.
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 2: And you're going to be a better mom for it also,
Speaker 2: you know, dealing with your trauma, getting it out of
Speaker 2: your body, being empowered, you know, which is what you
Speaker 2: need to be as a mother and as a woman.
Speaker 6: Thank you. I appreciate that, because the most important thing
Speaker 6: to me is to make sure I raise her to
Speaker 6: be strong and a good woman and that she doesn't
Speaker 6: let I hope she doesn't let anything go on with
Speaker 6: her like I did.
Speaker 4: I should have.
Speaker 6: I feel like I should have fought back a little
Speaker 6: bit more, but I know it wasn't on me, it
Speaker 6: was on him.
Speaker 4: But still the situation was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you don't know what you're going to do
Speaker 2: in those situations, people are in shock. Don't beat yourself
Speaker 2: up for that. You don't know what you're going to
Speaker 2: do in a situation, and you know when you're taking
Speaker 2: off guard. You can't be responsible for your actions in
Speaker 2: that moment, you know, so absolutely, But thank you for
Speaker 2: calling in and I hope that was helpful.
Speaker 4: Thank you absolutely, it was.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, and it was a pleasure talking
Speaker 6: with you all and meeting you all very much.
Speaker 4: Thanks a Laura, Thank you.
Speaker 3: By Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be
Speaker 3: back with a final question.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, and we're back.
Speaker 3: We are back, Lindsey says dear Chelsea. I don't know
Speaker 3: if I should stay married. I've been with my husband
Speaker 3: for eight years, married for one and we have two
Speaker 3: little kids, two and four. I also have an older stepdaughter.
Speaker 3: About seven months ago, I had a very sudden overnight
Speaker 3: awakening where I suddenly felt like all the small all
Speaker 3: things about my relationship i'd ignored became big issues for me.
Speaker 3: For example, my husband doesn't really have any friends. If
Speaker 3: we do things socially, I plan or get the invite
Speaker 3: and he comes along. He doesn't have a separate social
Speaker 3: life at all. I'm very driven. I'm an ambitious person
Speaker 3: with lots of goals. I recently asked him what his
Speaker 3: goals were for the future, and he didn't have a
Speaker 3: single one. Nothing more than what it is now. This
Speaker 3: is okay. I think it's just wildly different from me.
Speaker 3: When I talk about my goals, he says, oh, you're
Speaker 3: just gonna leave me behind one day. I'm scared to
Speaker 3: stay small in order to keep the peace at home.
Speaker 3: He's a wonderful dad, and he takes care of his
Speaker 3: share of things around the house, but as usual, I
Speaker 3: do more than fifty percent of the kid's stuff. We
Speaker 3: also don't communicate at times. We don't say a single
Speaker 3: word before he leaves the house in the morning. He
Speaker 3: doesn't ask me questions or engage in things I have
Speaker 3: going on. Basically, we're not active participants in each other's lives.
Speaker 3: We cohabitat raise kids together, but are not connected. And
Speaker 3: I am craving communication. I love to talk and have
Speaker 3: deep conversations, and I feel very deprived of that. I've
Speaker 3: explained to him how lonely I feel and how unhappy
Speaker 3: I am at times. We have couples therapy scheduled, and
Speaker 3: I feel heartbroken by the idea of splitting my kids.
Speaker 3: I also know there's an issue because I have feelings
Speaker 3: for someone else. This is the second person in a
Speaker 3: handful of months I have met and felt feelings for.
Speaker 3: There's nothing happening there at all. I just feel strongly
Speaker 3: for someone else, which feels important in this situation. The
Speaker 3: problem seems to be that I'm settling for good and
Speaker 3: dreaming of great It's very hard to choose to leave
Speaker 3: a good man with a decent job, who's a great dad.
Speaker 3: I'm terrified of the dating world and of heartbreak. I
Speaker 3: just don't know what to do or how to do it.
Speaker 3: I'm really afraid of making a huge mistake. Thanks so
Speaker 3: much for reading, Lindsey.
Speaker 2: That seems to be such a recurring theme, right, the
Speaker 2: idea that they want something better, but they're also scared
Speaker 2: to go get it.
Speaker 4: So you know they are eight years together when you're married,
Speaker 4: and my first question is Lindsey, How did you meet
Speaker 4: and what drew you to this man? I mean, what's
Speaker 4: the origin story? Obviously he would not have said this
Speaker 4: when you when you met him, So what drew you
Speaker 4: to him? What was it? And where did you come
Speaker 4: from before that he was the person that you chose
Speaker 4: at that moment. I think that that would give me
Speaker 4: a lot of information in terms of where she's landing
Speaker 4: at this moment, because often the very things that one's
Speaker 4: complaining about are the same things that one found initially attractive.
Speaker 4: You know, he was stable, he was a good dad,
Speaker 4: he was reliable, he was there for me. And this
Speaker 4: may probably come on the heels of I was in
Speaker 4: another relationship that was unstable, that was not reliable. You know,
Speaker 4: there's a yin yang in our lives about this. So
Speaker 4: this is the first thing. And then I have a
Speaker 4: sense that it may be a coincidence that the seven
Speaker 4: months ago when this lady woke up, this woman woke up,
Speaker 4: is also the seven months when she met this new
Speaker 4: person that she has feelings for. You know, these things
Speaker 4: are often well timed, and so at this moment, what
Speaker 4: are these new feelings or at these feelings that have
Speaker 4: taken on a new intensity because you are flirting in
Speaker 4: your mind with the idea of another person. And then
Speaker 4: this notion that you're going to capos therapy but you
Speaker 4: hate to break up your family. You're not going to
Speaker 4: copos therapy to break up your family, but you may
Speaker 4: be going to cople therape to understand that the man
Speaker 4: you are with now is the man you've always been with,
Speaker 4: and that this is about also coming to terms with
Speaker 4: your choice. No, he may not be any mootor he
Speaker 4: may be more on a spectrum more. He may be
Speaker 4: not a person who has great ambitions, but he is
Speaker 4: a person who will support your ambitions, and that is
Speaker 4: a perfectly valuable platform as well. He will be there
Speaker 4: so that you can go out into the world and
Speaker 4: he will accompany you, and he won't argue where you
Speaker 4: ask him to come. You may want someone who has
Speaker 4: their own life and their own initiatives and all of that.
Speaker 4: Did he have them when you met? Did he forego
Speaker 4: them in order to solidify his connection with It's like
Speaker 4: there's a few pieces of information here that would help
Speaker 4: say this is the direction or that this is not
Speaker 4: about I'm willing to let go of good for great
Speaker 4: is I don't think that this is a question about
Speaker 4: how can I optimize and maximize my life. This is
Speaker 4: fundamentally about you're coming to terms with the choice you
Speaker 4: made that you may or may not have acknowledged to
Speaker 4: yourself from day one.
Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot of people feel this way.
Speaker 2: Be careful what you wish for. Right You could be
Speaker 2: in a relationship with somebody who has a million things
Speaker 2: going on, and then you could feel ignored and invisible
Speaker 2: and that.
Speaker 1: You're not getting enough from that person.
Speaker 2: So it's like there is this feeling of the grass
Speaker 2: is always greener as there are like with couples, you
Speaker 2: know they get to this.
Speaker 4: It took my sentence away. I was going to go there,
Speaker 4: and I decided to wait. But yes, it's like you
Speaker 4: know you when you are with someone who is very
Speaker 4: active and has a whole life, the fault line is
Speaker 4: you know you're not available for me. When you are
Speaker 4: with a person who is available for you but doesn't
Speaker 4: have many other things, then it's you know you're too
Speaker 4: dependent on me. In both cases, the question is less
Speaker 4: about this man and more about this woman and the
Speaker 4: nature of her relationship to him, and this idea that
Speaker 4: she has to make herself small in order to maintain
Speaker 4: the peace. No, No, he's not. Probably he's maybe not
Speaker 4: asking that either. If you say, you know, if I
Speaker 4: lift my boat, it lifts all boats. And we are
Speaker 4: going on this together. And what I get from you
Speaker 4: is the support for my ambitions. That's what matters, not
Speaker 4: does he have his own? You know? What you want
Speaker 4: is to know what he does with yours? Is he
Speaker 4: threatened by it? When he says you made when day
Speaker 4: leave me? Is because you keep telling him that he's
Speaker 4: a bum and you don't really find him interesting or
Speaker 4: attractive because he doesn't have anything pulling him. What's the
Speaker 4: dialogue that we don't hear here is what I would
Speaker 4: like to understand. And one last thing I would add
Speaker 4: maybe is sometimes your relationship is the source of the nurturance,
Speaker 4: of the happiness of the engagement. But sometimes the relationship
Speaker 4: is more of a scaffolding, and the scaffolding that makes
Speaker 4: it available for you to go into the world and
Speaker 4: to get your food and your nourishment and your engagements
Speaker 4: and your ambitions met there. And those are two viable models.
Speaker 4: It may be that in this instance what's between the
Speaker 4: two of you is less about the intimacy of the
Speaker 4: connection as between what this relationship gives to each of
Speaker 4: you makes possible for both of you in life. And
Speaker 4: that is also a respectable choice, just so you know,
Speaker 4: may not be the one she chooses to make, but
Speaker 4: it is a very common choice. It just is often
Speaker 4: not named like this, but it is a very clear decision.
Speaker 2: And I also would add looking at counseling as an opportunity,
Speaker 2: not as a failure, like you're going to go to
Speaker 2: counseling and there's a huge opportunity for growth there between
Speaker 2: you and your partner, reconnecting and finding rediscovering each other
Speaker 2: in a way that you had it before. It's an
Speaker 2: opportunity for your partner to gain a better understanding of
Speaker 2: what you're feeling and how you're feeling and how you're
Speaker 2: feeling seen and what you.
Speaker 1: Want from him.
Speaker 2: And if at the end of all of that, you
Speaker 2: guys don't get together and get stronger, then you have
Speaker 2: a very kind of clear path forward that it's not what.
Speaker 1: You're looking for.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're distracted by other people during your marriage,
Speaker 2: I don't think that's an uncommon theme. I think it's
Speaker 2: a matter of is that distraction like a yearning to
Speaker 2: be out of your marriage or is it simply a distraction.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's very clear, like as you were reading
Speaker 2: this letter that you were going to mention you had
Speaker 2: a crush on somebody at some point.
Speaker 1: Because that's what was you know, we've asked.
Speaker 2: Both of us were like, ah, yeah, but just look
Speaker 2: at counseling is huge. It's a huge opportunity for growth
Speaker 2: within yourself, within your marriage, and for your partner. So
Speaker 2: look at everything as an advantage. The more knowledge you have,
Speaker 2: the better you are making a decision. And if your
Speaker 2: marriage can survive this, then you're going to be stronger
Speaker 2: for it. And if you do decide to split, then
Speaker 2: that's okay too. Then you can go pursue all.
Speaker 1: Of these things you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Hopefully you can pursue them within your marriage by just
Speaker 2: having a better line of communication and understanding of each other.
Speaker 4: I think I would add another piece to it as well, Chelseae,
Speaker 4: is that what I'm not hearing enough is a basic
Speaker 4: appreciation for the man, for the person, for what he represents,
Speaker 4: not for what he does, not for the fifty percent,
Speaker 4: but for who he is, for the love he brings,
Speaker 4: for the care, the attention, the reliability. All these things
Speaker 4: are actually very big things if your relationship will disintegrate
Speaker 4: if it becomes a relationship where two people are basically
Speaker 4: criticizing each other and pointing only at the shortcomings and
Speaker 4: the failures and the gaps rather than and take for
Speaker 4: granted what is and only highlight what's missing. And that
Speaker 4: piece is something I hope you develop in and cultivating
Speaker 4: the couple's therapy and in you know, people want to
Speaker 4: know that they matter, that they mean something, that they're there,
Speaker 4: and that their presence is appreciated and not that their
Speaker 4: presence is evaluated and measured.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, good luck with that situation and thank you
Speaker 2: as Stair. So your course on conflict, how can people
Speaker 2: sign up for that?
Speaker 4: Rate to the website Esteraparil dot com. Is the couple
Speaker 4: of course. It's called Turning Conflict into Connection. Where should
Speaker 4: we begin? You all know it's the podcast. It's on
Speaker 4: Apple and on vox and anywhere you listen to your
Speaker 4: podcasts with the subscription on Apple, and it is basically this,
Speaker 4: it's live couples Therapy. It's what we've been doing together,
Speaker 4: is the podcast. It's live relationship therapy with individuals and
Speaker 4: couples where you fly on the wall listening in on
Speaker 4: the sessions of others and where should we begin the game.
Speaker 4: It's also on my website and on Amazon, And that's
Speaker 4: how do you actually It's the tool for communication to
Speaker 4: establish connection, curiosity, trust, playfulness in your relationships by having
Speaker 4: very beautiful questions that lead to storytelling, not to answers,
Speaker 4: but to storytelling, because relationships are stories.
Speaker 1: Wonderful.
Speaker 2: Your husband must be like he must lose any sort
Speaker 2: of argument at any time that you guys have had.
Speaker 2: I mean, how can you be married to someone like
Speaker 2: you and stay at your ground?
Speaker 1: He must have to defer to you on everything. It's
Speaker 1: the ultimate position to be in, you.
Speaker 4: Think you think for decades later? No, no, no, I
Speaker 4: have someone who but I'll tell you you goes a
Speaker 4: long way as you know. Yeah, okay, so one way
Speaker 4: to deflate me completely is to make me laugh. That
Speaker 4: quite me?
Speaker 2: Ye, that works for me as well for my future lovers. Anyway,
Speaker 2: thank you Snare for being on our podcast today as pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Thank you Bothay take care theare Chelsea. Do you have
Speaker 3: some new dates for us? Oh?
Speaker 1: You know, I do you know, I do. I have
Speaker 1: a lot of We added lots.
Speaker 2: Of Canadian cities, Canadians, I'm coming.
Speaker 1: We added about fifteen new tour dates.
Speaker 2: I'm coming to Denver again, Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Richmond, Virginia,
Speaker 2: Santa Rosa, California, Gary and Deanna, Baltimore, Verona, New York,
Speaker 2: and about seven dates in Canada. So go to Chelseahandler
Speaker 2: dot com. I am performing everywhere. I will be on
Speaker 2: tour all for the rest of the year and through December,
Speaker 2: and then next year I'm going to be touring all year.
Speaker 1: So come and get it, you guys. It's good times and.
Speaker 2: It's a very much needed reprieve from all the fucking
Speaker 2: madness that's going on in this world.
Speaker 1: So I'm here to bring joy and sunshine.
Speaker 4: Do you have a.
Speaker 3: Holiday themed question for Chelsea? Please send us all the
Speaker 3: questions you need answered about crazy family get togethers, arguing
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Speaker 3: holiday drama. Just send your questions to Dear Chelsea podcast
Speaker 3: at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
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