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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Tad and this

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Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. So we

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Speaker 1: all know the Internet loves a viral story. It loves outrage, suspense, villains, drama,

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Speaker 1: all of it. But what happens when the story is

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Speaker 1: about a real woman who says that she has been

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Speaker 1: the victim of a sex crime and the platforms that

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Speaker 1: ostensibly should be protecting her punish her instead. That is

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Speaker 1: what happened to this woman called Livy, a gor dash

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Speaker 1: driver in New York State whose story recently went viral

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Speaker 1: on TikTok. I wanted to talk about this on the

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Speaker 1: News Roundup, but honestly, I had so much to say

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Speaker 1: about it that I thought this needs to be its

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Speaker 1: own episode because I think it shows us so much

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Speaker 1: about where we're at right now when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the state of women speaking up online. When we were

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Speaker 1: talking about potentially doing an episode about this situation. In

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Speaker 1: the beginning, when I first started researching it, I was

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Speaker 1: just curious about this story. I was seeing this story

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Speaker 1: all over my TikTok feed and I wanted to understand

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Speaker 1: it better. But by the end of putting together my

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Speaker 1: research and really doing a deep dive into what's going

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Speaker 1: on here, I went from curious to pissed off and

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Speaker 1: also quite worried about what this situation means for all

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Speaker 1: of us. So I'm going to get into the logistics

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Speaker 1: of what's going on here with this viral door dash

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Speaker 1: story on TikTok, how Ai is fueling, how we got

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Speaker 1: to this place and what it all means.

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Speaker 2: It seems like a complicated story, an interesting one, I think,

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Speaker 2: a good one for you to tell.

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Speaker 1: In some ways it is complicated, but in other ways

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Speaker 1: it's very uncomplicated tale as old as time, the most

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Speaker 1: simple story that we all recognize and understand. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of both of those things that want. So here's what's

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Speaker 1: going on. On October twelfth, a woman called Livy, who

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Speaker 1: does DoorDash for a living, made a TikTok explaining that

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Speaker 1: she got an order on DoorDash from a customer who

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Speaker 1: asked her to leave the order on the porch outside.

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Speaker 1: When she got to the customer's home, she says that

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Speaker 1: she walks up the stairs to the porch and saw

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Speaker 1: the door partially open and inside was the customer laying

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Speaker 1: across the sofa, supposedly asleep, laying motionless with his face

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Speaker 1: covered and his pants and underwear dad around his ankles

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Speaker 1: exposed from the waist down. I should explain some logistics

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Speaker 1: here that the way that the door in the couch

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Speaker 1: is situated, there is no way that anybody walking up

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Speaker 1: on this porch, like the door dasher that you thumb

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Speaker 1: into your home, would not see somebody laying on the

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Speaker 1: couch from where the couch is positioned. The couch that

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Speaker 1: he was on is right across from the door facing it.

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Speaker 1: Like if somebody was standing on the porch and the

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Speaker 1: door was open, somebody sitting on the couch, you would

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Speaker 1: see each other directly. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: It does? Yeah, And we'll link to the video in

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Speaker 2: the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this episode will include some visual thing I will

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Speaker 1: do my best to explain them, but this is not

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Speaker 1: a video podcast, so we will put the links to

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Speaker 1: the things that you need to see, but I'll make

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Speaker 1: it clear what's going on even if you don't do that.

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Speaker 1: So Livy's version of what I just explained is illustrated

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Speaker 1: in a TikTok that she made and posted that shows

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Speaker 1: her standing outside of this porch with the door open,

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Speaker 1: with this man exposing himself in full view. Here's what

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Speaker 1: Livy said Ator TikTok.

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Speaker 3: The customer who committed a crime against me requested that

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Speaker 3: their order be left at their front door, and when

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Speaker 3: I arrived to their house, their front door was wide open.

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Speaker 3: It was fifty nine degrees fahrenheit, all of their lights

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Speaker 3: were on, and they were sleeping on the couch within

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Speaker 3: eyesight of the front door, with their pants and underwear

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Speaker 3: pulled down to their ankles. This person's name is Austin

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Speaker 3: and their last initial is N. I reported this to

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Speaker 3: DoorDash and the police, and DoorDash luckily banned the customer,

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Speaker 3: but the police are doing nothing. I also posted the

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Speaker 3: video that I have of the proof to TikTok, and

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Speaker 3: after a day and a half of it going completely viral,

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Speaker 3: TikTok took down the video for suggestive content and gave

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Speaker 3: my account a strike. They've also denied my appeal to

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Speaker 3: have it reinstated. I'm absolutely reposting the video again, but

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Speaker 3: with a little sensor blur so it can't be removed

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Speaker 3: for the same reason because this is literally the only

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Speaker 3: justice I'm getting in the wake of my victimhood. The

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Speaker 3: police are doing nothing to prevent or stop this man

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Speaker 3: from doing it again, and they're not doing anything to

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Speaker 3: punish him for already having done it. So if the

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Speaker 3: only justice I'm going to get is the fact that

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Speaker 3: he's banned off the platform and that video went viral

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Speaker 3: and now he can live with that shame and embarrassment,

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Speaker 3: then that's what it's going to have to be.

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Speaker 4: So TikTok keep this video up.

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Speaker 1: So Livy says that she reported this man to DoorDash,

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Speaker 1: and DoorDash kicks the man off of the platform, but

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Speaker 1: they also kicked her off the platform too, essentially blocking

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Speaker 1: her from being able to make money, and she's is

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Speaker 1: that DoorDash is her only source of income.

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Speaker 4: Hey guys, So DoorDash just deactivated me two days after

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Speaker 4: I reported my sexual assault. Hey guys, I just lost

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Speaker 4: my job and they won't tell me why. They're supposed

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Speaker 4: to send an email immediately after deactivation providing you the

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Speaker 4: reason why and a link to appeal, and they didn't.

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Speaker 4: So I contacted support and they made me sit on

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Speaker 4: the phone with them for fifty minutes just to tell

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Speaker 4: me that they can't tell me the reason why. And

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Speaker 4: I have to just go ahead and appeal without knowing why,

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Speaker 4: so my chances of getting my account back. They have

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Speaker 4: my money in that account. I was working, I was

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Speaker 4: literally working, and they deactivated me.

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Speaker 1: This is not this is related.

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Speaker 4: They just punished me for posting about my sexual assault

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Speaker 4: while door dashing. They just fired me, and the police

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Speaker 4: are doing nothing. I lost my job and that was

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Speaker 4: my only way to make money to pay my.

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Speaker 1: Bilf Initially, Lidy said that DoorDash never even told her

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Speaker 1: why they kicked her off the platform, though she does

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Speaker 1: say that she feels that it's connected to the TikTok

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Speaker 1: that she made about this man, which yeah it is.

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Speaker 1: DoorDash put out a statement explaining why they kicked her

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Speaker 1: off the platform. Livy says they made this statement without

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Speaker 1: ever actually talking to her directly about why they deactivated

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Speaker 1: her account. She says that when the general public found

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Speaker 1: out why she was deactivated from being on DoorDash is

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Speaker 1: the same time that she found out why she was deactivated.

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Speaker 1: They never talked to her. This put out this statement.

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Speaker 1: Here's what DoorDash said. No one should ever have to

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Speaker 1: experience sexual assault, harassment, or abuse, and DoorDash never deactivates

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Speaker 1: someone for reporting it full stop. We take these reports

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Speaker 1: incredibly seriously and work closely with law enforcement to investigate

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Speaker 1: and support those affected. However, posting a video of a

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Speaker 1: customer in their home and disclosing their personal details publicly

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Speaker 1: is a clear violation of our policies. That is the

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Speaker 1: sole reason why this dasher's account was deactivated along with

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Speaker 1: the customers while we investigated. DoorDash also told Newsweek that

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Speaker 1: they're investigating to make sure that Livy gets whatever full

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Speaker 1: payments she's owed from the work she had done from DoorDash,

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Speaker 1: because she had not been able to cash out before

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Speaker 1: her account was deactivated. Though I have no idea if

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Speaker 1: they're going to make good on this, it's just what

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Speaker 1: they said in their statement, So DoorDash is basically saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, hey, we didn't deactivate Livy's account because she

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Speaker 1: reported a sex crime. We deactivated her account because she

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Speaker 1: posted a video of a DoorDash customer. I'll say it

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Speaker 1: would have been nice if DoorDash told Livy this directly,

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Speaker 1: rather than simply deactivating her account with money in it.

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Speaker 1: But as we'll talk about in a moment, the whole

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Speaker 1: dynamic of gig work is that companies like DoorDash don't

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Speaker 1: really have to do shit because they don't have employees,

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Speaker 1: they have contractors, And so I get where Livy is

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Speaker 1: coming from, but that is sort of the nature of

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Speaker 1: the beast here. So a big question that is coming

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Speaker 1: up online is whether or not Livy should have made

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Speaker 1: this video in the first place. Livy says that she

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Speaker 1: had wanted video evidence of what happened, and I will say,

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Speaker 1: had she come to the Internet without video evidence of

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Speaker 1: what she says happened, I'm sure the conversation would have

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Speaker 1: been entirely different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, there's something about this story that

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Speaker 2: really makes one want to, like, I don't know, like

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Speaker 2: like way in or like pulls you in to want

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Speaker 2: to say, like what she you know, was she and

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Speaker 2: the right? Was she in the wrong? Should she have

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Speaker 2: done this or that? Or something about the story really

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Speaker 2: pulls a person in, I think, and I think you're

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Speaker 2: totally right that without that video, it's hard to even

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Speaker 2: imagine that there would even be any story there beyond

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Speaker 2: you know, just what she's going through exactly.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people are saying, oh, well, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have an issue with what she did if she

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Speaker 1: just sent that video directly to door Dash and left

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Speaker 1: it at that, like why did she have to post

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Speaker 1: as the TikTok and I get that. Livy says that

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Speaker 1: she called the non emergency police line to report this

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Speaker 1: to the police. After she reports it to DoorDash, she

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Speaker 1: says a police officer actually came out to speak with

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Speaker 1: her about what she wanted to do. She said that

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Speaker 1: she wanted to press charges if possible, to make sure

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Speaker 1: that this guy was not able to do this to

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Speaker 1: another person. In one of her videos, she actually points

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Speaker 1: out that this guy lives in a duplex, and she says,

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Speaker 1: what if there had been a kid out on the

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Speaker 1: porch on the other shared unit, And so she said

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Speaker 1: that she wanted to report this to the police just

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Speaker 1: to make sure that this wasn't going to be a

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Speaker 1: recurring thing with this guy. But she says the police

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Speaker 1: told her that she couldn't really press charges in this

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Speaker 1: state because this man was in his own house and

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't like he got up to lunge toward

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Speaker 1: her or anything like that. So Livy says that she

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Speaker 1: posted it because the police essentially weren't doing anything about it,

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Speaker 1: weren't taking it seriously. But her posting that video to

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Speaker 1: TikTok is what DoorDash says is the reason for her

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Speaker 1: being deactivated from the platform. Honestly, I can't act like

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Speaker 1: I don't see where DoorDash is coming from here that

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Speaker 1: they probably can't have doordashers posting video of their customers

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Speaker 1: like this on TikTok. Now what I have done this

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Speaker 1: if I were Livy? Probably not, because personally, at this

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Speaker 1: point in my life, I almost never think that bringing

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Speaker 1: something to the Internet is going to make a situation better.

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Speaker 1: These days, I have only seen the Internet getting involved

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Speaker 1: making things worse. But that's just me. But I also

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Speaker 1: think we really crave perfect victims, right, victims who would

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Speaker 1: act and behave exactly like we think that we would

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Speaker 1: act and behave in whatever situation. So the fact that

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Speaker 1: Livy is doing something that I personally would not do

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything, right. I think we really had this idea.

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Speaker 1: When we hear something like this, we think, well, what

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Speaker 1: would I do? And if this person didn't do things

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Speaker 1: like I think I would do things, something must be up.

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Speaker 1: She must be lying. That's a red flag. I also

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Speaker 1: think the fact that Livy is on TikTok talking very

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Speaker 1: loudly about this thing that happened to her. I just

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Speaker 1: think people don't like that. Like, I'm sad to see

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Speaker 1: that people have taken one specific bit from one of

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Speaker 1: Livy's mini videos about this where she's very upset, and

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Speaker 1: they've turned it into a really hurtful meme on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: A man's world.

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Speaker 5: I'm the victim, remember.

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Speaker 1: So they've taken a screenshot which is a close up

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Speaker 1: of her face while Livy is pleading with people to

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Speaker 1: remember that she is the victim in this situation, and

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Speaker 1: it's been making the rounds on TikTok. If you check

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Speaker 1: the comments of Livy's other posts on TikTok, people are

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Speaker 1: putting that screenshot of that image of her face very

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Speaker 1: pained while while speaking to you at this situation in the

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Speaker 1: comments to make fun of her. Her face in this

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Speaker 1: image is tortured and pained because she is very upset,

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Speaker 1: and it reminds me if you've seen that image of

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a if you googled liberal feminist triggered.

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Speaker 1: It's a picture that makes her look like she is screaming,

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Speaker 1: and it's an image that it's become a me when

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Speaker 1: people want to reference sort of triggered angry feminist meltdown.

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Speaker 1: But when you actually look at the real full video

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Speaker 1: that that image was taken from, it's a feminist woman

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Speaker 1: in a campus debate and she's just having a fairly

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Speaker 1: normal conversation with somebody. It's a conversation that's like somewhat

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Speaker 1: hostile because she's citing rape statistics or something, but she's

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Speaker 1: not screaming. She barely even raises her voice in that video.

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Speaker 1: The only issue is is that she has an expressive face,

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Speaker 1: and so in this image she looks like she is

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Speaker 1: screaming or having some sort of a triggered feminist meltdown.

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Speaker 1: But really she's just having a pretty normal conversation with someone,

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Speaker 1: I would say even like a fairly civil conversation with somebody.

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Speaker 1: And yet online she has become the face of triggered

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Speaker 1: lying feminists everywhere. Never mind that men like Alex Jones

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Speaker 1: and Andrew Breitbart, like, do you remember seeing what it looks

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Speaker 1: like when they would talk. They would be frothing at

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Speaker 1: the mouth and screaming and veins popping out of their

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Speaker 1: necks and foreheads, and fans loved it. So the rules

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Speaker 1: are simply different for men. You know, Andrew Breitbart did

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Speaker 1: not become the face of triggered men everywhere when he

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Speaker 1: would have legit freakouts on camera.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the outrage and the performative like energy I think

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Speaker 2: was a big part of it for those guys.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I think this image and clip of Livy

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Speaker 1: speaking with a pained face having a big emotion says

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Speaker 1: a lot about how we want and expect women to

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Speaker 1: behave after experiencing something traumatic, and how much stigma there

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Speaker 1: is around labeling oneself as a victim. I also think

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Speaker 1: we want victims who are quiet about what they've experienced.

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Speaker 1: When someone screaming about it, even if whatever happened to

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Speaker 1: them is worth screaming about, I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people they automatically assume that that person screaming is

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Speaker 1: in the wrong, because what we actually want is a

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Speaker 1: society where women who are harmed also just shut up

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Speaker 1: about it. So people are also taking issue with the

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Speaker 1: fact that Livy says that she was quote sexually assaulted

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Speaker 1: in her TikTok, saying, how could someone sexually assault you

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Speaker 1: if they didn't touch you, if you'd never had physical contact.

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Speaker 1: This is a little bit in the weeds, but according

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Speaker 1: to the Office on Violence against Women. The term sexual

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Speaker 1: assault means any non consensual sexual act prescribed by federal, tribal,

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Speaker 1: or state law, including the victim lacks capacity to consent.

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Speaker 1: But in a legal sense, state laws can vary, so

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Speaker 1: can the definitions used for sexual assault. So flashing or

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Speaker 1: indecent exposure may be a sexual offense and a sex crime,

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Speaker 1: but it is not always classified legally as sexual assault

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Speaker 1: in a stripped legal sense, because that depends on the state.

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Speaker 1: It really strikes me as an odd thing to get

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Speaker 1: hung up on this specific legal designation the way that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have on TikTok to call Livy

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Speaker 1: a liar. But I did want to mention it, and

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Speaker 1: I guess I wish that all of this discourse about

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Speaker 1: the technical definitions of sexual assault versus sexual offense versus

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Speaker 1: sex crime was happening in an effort to educate people

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Speaker 1: rather than belittle this woman who says that she was

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Speaker 1: forced to look at a stranger's penis while just trying

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Speaker 1: to do her job. But here we are, like, I've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of people say Livy is lying about

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Speaker 1: saying that she was sexually assaulted, and that minimizes actual

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Speaker 1: sexual assault and makes it harder for actual victims, but

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Speaker 1: in decent exposure, is very much a sex crime, even

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Speaker 1: if it is not specifically legally categorized as sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: It's very clear to me that people who are bringing

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Speaker 1: this up are trying to use it to parse Livy's

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Speaker 1: words to make her look like an unreliable narrator and

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Speaker 1: a liar. They're not doing it in an effort to

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Speaker 1: actually advocate for victims of sexualized violence. Because even if

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Speaker 1: this is not legally a sexual assault the way that

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Speaker 1: Livy says it is, it is still a sex crime. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think a good sort of test for that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing is like, why don't you try it at work? Like,

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Speaker 2: if it's not actually any sort of a problem, just

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Speaker 2: go ahead and do it at work and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want all of these guys who are saying

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Speaker 1: it's not actually a crime, Yeah, do it to your

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Speaker 1: HR lady and see what she says. See how it

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Speaker 1: goes for you. Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: So Liviy post this video to TikTok and says that

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Speaker 1: TikTok took action against her for uploading this video. She

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Speaker 1: says the app initially removed her video and issued a

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Speaker 1: strike against her account. When she initially posted it with

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Speaker 1: the man with his pants down visible, she uploaded it again,

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Speaker 1: obscuring the man's junk from the video, but that video

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Speaker 1: was also removed and she got a second strike. Now,

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Speaker 1: if it sounds like I'm being super careful and specific

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Speaker 1: about how I'm describing the situation, it is because the

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Speaker 1: entire internet. Okay, we'll have the entire Internet, but a

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Speaker 1: whole hell of a lot of people have decided that

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Speaker 1: Livy is lying about what happened, because at first it

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Speaker 1: seemed like people were supporting Livvy and then something turned

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Speaker 1: and to me, it seems like one of the many

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Speaker 1: examples that we have of a woman being smeared by

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Speaker 1: millions of people online for speaking up about something that

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Speaker 1: she says happened to her. Right, there's a whole shade

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Speaker 1: of something that we talk about a lot on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: when people appoint themselves as investigators to litigate the details

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Speaker 1: of other people's personal lives. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of true crime brain rot out there that happens where

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Speaker 1: people online decide that they know the real story that

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Speaker 1: the rest of us aren't being told about what's happening

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Speaker 1: with these strangers. And it's one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: when these stories come up, which they often do online,

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Speaker 1: I am the you know, wet blanket voice that says,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not good to have millions of people jumping

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Speaker 1: into the business of strangers in this way. I totally

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Speaker 1: get that it is exhilarating. Who doesn't love going down

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Speaker 1: a rabbit hole of somebody else's drama. But it's one

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Speaker 1: thing when we're talking about a fictional character. It's another

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Speaker 1: thing when we're talking about a real, everyday person. We

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Speaker 1: saw it with West Elm Caleb, the guy who worked

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Speaker 1: at West Elm who met a bunch of women on

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Speaker 1: a dating app and was making them all personalized playlists

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Speaker 1: on Spotify to woo them. We saw it with that

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Speaker 1: TikTok woman who surprised visited her long distance boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: he gives her kind of a weird chili reception, and

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Speaker 1: the entire internet decided that he was cheating on her

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Speaker 1: because they all became body language experts. We saw it

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Speaker 1: with that Coldplay concert couple, you know, that couple who

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Speaker 1: made a very weird kind of cought reaction when they

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Speaker 1: were on the JumboTron canoodling at a Coldplay and Coldplay

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Speaker 1: frontman Chris Martin wondered out loud like, oh, they must

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Speaker 1: be having an affair, which, by the way, I have

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Speaker 1: no idea if this is true. But after the hubbub

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Speaker 1: died down, I read that at least one of the

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Speaker 1: couples in that situation said that, yeah, I'm still legally married,

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Speaker 1: but I've been separated from my spouse for a while

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Speaker 1: when that cold Play concert happened, Like, my spouse is

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Speaker 1: also dating. We're not together, so I know it makes

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Speaker 1: me a wet blanket. But when these big moments happen

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Speaker 1: that light the Internet on fire, everybody is talking about

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Speaker 1: somebody else's life, I think they truly illustrate how deeply

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Speaker 1: surveiled we are socially as a society, how we are

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Speaker 1: doing the surveiling and we are the surveiled. And I

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Speaker 1: think this is especially bad for women, because when the

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Speaker 1: Internet turns on women, even famous women who are the

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Speaker 1: victims of abuse, people like Megna Stallion or Amber Heard,

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Speaker 1: it's not just speculation. It is the reliable misogyny of

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Speaker 1: the Internet being so easily weaponized against her to smear

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Speaker 1: her and silence her. All the old tropes around gender

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Speaker 1: that we all know women live for attention, women can't

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Speaker 1: be trusted. Good innocent men are having their lives ruined

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Speaker 1: for over nothing by lying bitches. All of these tired

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Speaker 1: old tropes that permeate how we talk about and understand

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Speaker 1: gender get dialed up to eleven on social media because

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Speaker 1: misogyny will always find an audience online just by the

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Speaker 1: nature of how social media is designed. And this is

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Speaker 1: a feature, not a bug. It is how our platforms

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Speaker 1: were designed from their earliest days. I will say it

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Speaker 1: till I'm blue in the face. Never forget that Facebook

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Speaker 1: started as a way for Zuckerberg to get revenge on

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Speaker 1: women who did not want to date him. So this

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Speaker 1: is just baked into our internet ecosystem, and I think

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Speaker 1: we really see it with how this whole Livy situation

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Speaker 1: is playing out. So after Livy shared her story, people

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Speaker 1: online started saying that she is not really a victim

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Speaker 1: in situation because she did not just innocently walk up

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Speaker 1: to the door dash customer's door and find him naked

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Speaker 1: from the waist down, as she claimed. She actually walked

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Speaker 1: up to a closed door, opened it without knocking and

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Speaker 1: without permission, saw an undressed man asleep in his own home,

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Speaker 1: took a video of him exposed, posted an online and

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Speaker 1: that she is the one who is actually violating him.

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Speaker 1: That is the narrative that has really taken off online.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's odd because that is not what is depicted

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Speaker 2: in that video that she posted. In that video she posted,

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Speaker 2: she doesn't open the door. The door is already open.

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Speaker 2: So where is this other narrative coming from?

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Speaker 1: Great question. So one is just sort of logistical. Because

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Speaker 1: Libby had to remove the original footage that she uploaded

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Speaker 1: to TikTok from the platform, it has become somewhat difficult,

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Speaker 1: though not impossible, to find the original video that she

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Speaker 1: uploaded about the situation, and that has allowed people to

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Speaker 1: really fill the gap in with their own idea of

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Speaker 1: what must have happened. So if you search TikTok for

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Speaker 1: door Dash Lady DoorDash situation, whatever, you will find people

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Speaker 1: saying with certainty that yes, they know that Livy pushed

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Speaker 1: this closed door open. That has just become accepted as

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Speaker 1: fact in this situation. When I was just doing research,

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Speaker 1: somebody on a different platform threads said, Oh, why is

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Speaker 1: everybody what's going on with this DoorDash situation. Somebody else replied,

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Speaker 1: she opened a closed door and is acting like she's

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Speaker 1: a victim because of it. I replied, can you link

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Speaker 1: me to proof? How do you know this is their proof?

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Speaker 1: Everybody is like, there is no proof. Everyone's just saying

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Speaker 1: they've seen proof, but there is no proof. There are

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Speaker 1: even people making jokey tiktoks purporting to recreate Livy's POV

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Speaker 1: where she pushes open a closed door and then winds like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, I'm being assaulted by a naked man in

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Speaker 1: his own home. I have to say, some of these

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Speaker 1: videos being made to make fun of Livy do seem

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Speaker 1: to be AI generated. They're using AI generators like Sora,

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Speaker 1: But I'm sad to say that a lot of them

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Speaker 1: that I've seen are real people, real women, taking the

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Speaker 1: TikTok to make fun of Livy for saying this happened

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Speaker 1: to her. So it's just sort of become understood as

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Speaker 1: the facts of what happened, without any proof at all

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Speaker 1: that it's actually true. And importantly, there are people saying

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Speaker 1: that there is another angle, or that the man in

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Speaker 1: the situation uploaded ringed hamrat footage proving that Livvy actually

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Speaker 1: opened a closed door without his permission and was the

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Speaker 1: one violating him. I kind of went down the rabbit

432
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: hole on this one. You know, we talked a little

433
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: bit about how with the Taylor Swift conversation, how you

434
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: can just really sniff it out what a conversation happening

435
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: online is not happening in a normal, authentic way. You

436
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: can just tell where there are real people jumping on

437
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: a bandwagon, and then also some of it is not

438
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: authentic conversation, Mike. I know that when we were having

439
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: a pitch meeting, I was trying to explain what was

440
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: going on with what I had seen on TikTok, and

441
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: I felt like when we were speaking, I felt compelled

442
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: to keep reiterating to you that I was one hundred percent,

443
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 1: stone cold sober while I was speaking about this, because

444
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: I felt like the way that I was talking about

445
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: it made me seem like I was not sober.

446
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: Do you remember this, Yeah, I remember you showing me

447
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: a couple of videos back to back where totally different

448
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: people were saying the exact same thing, like word for word,

449
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: the exact same script about like, I woke up and

450
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 2: I saw this story and I had to get into it,

451
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: but like word for word, and it was weird. It

452
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 2: was like I felt like U like living in the

453
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: Truman Show or something like the algorithm was these videos

454
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: were created just to like convince you of something.

455
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: Yes, so it is not totally uncommon for a human

456
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: creator to recreate a TikTok that another human creator has made.

457
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: Like I've seen that. I know that happens, but that

458
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: wasn't this. This was the same identical cadence, the same

459
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 1: idea it was. It was yeah, it was as if

460
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: they were reading a script. And then I realized one

461
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: of these is a I like genuinely, I thought I

462
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: was going crazy until I saw this TikTok that broke

463
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: it down.

464
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 6: Everybody's talking about the door dash Girl. I was looking

465
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 6: at certain videos and I came across this one.

466
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: I saw the original video of the door Daft Girl.

467
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: And I'm a limited and confused now that I woke

468
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: up and see everything that's happening. But I saw it.

469
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 1: I saw, Hey, I understand why DoorDash I guess fired

470
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: you again? Why you're a block from now?

471
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 6: As for the guy, that's a little weird, right, Why

472
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 6: are they saying the same thing in a very similar

473
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 6: tone and a very similar cadence. Is there a script,

474
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 6: is somebody copying somebody? Or is that video on the

475
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 6: right fucking AI? It's a AI, and not just that video.

476
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 6: Her entire fucking page is artificial intelligence generated video. Okay, Now,

477
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 6: when you look at the page, you can kind of

478
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 6: tell it's just gibberish. There's there's no like links or anything,

479
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 6: no name. But when you just scroll by these videos,

480
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 6: it's pretty hard to tell unless you're really paying attention

481
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 6: to how she speaks.

482
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: And it gets even weirder because m u URLs on TikTok,

483
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: who is a human TikToker on TikTok, says that somebody

484
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: stole her likeness, stole her voice, generated an AI version

485
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: of her to make it appear as though she weighed

486
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: in on this door dash situation. When she did it,

487
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: I would not have known that this was an AI

488
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: clone of a real person unless I really really look.

489
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: If I'm just swipe swipe swiping, I don't think I

490
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: would have clocked that this is AI if I had

491
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: not also come across this woman saying, Hey, this isn't me,

492
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: It's an AI clone of me that somebody has made,

493
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: please report it so you can really see how the

494
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 1: proliferation of AI can turbocharge manipulated, inauthentic conversation about a

495
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: hot button charged topic, even when it's not about a

496
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: big celebrity like Taylor Swift but a regular person like Livy.

497
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 2: I really think, Slash hope that there will be a

498
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: time in the future when we look back at this

499
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: era when it's totally legal and fine for whoever to

500
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: be creating all these AI generated videos that just like

501
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: steal people's likenesses report to be real people even though

502
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: they're not, and just like flooding the information ecosystem that

503
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: we all have to live in, just flooding that with

504
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: these fake accounts that are not fake but like inauthentic,

505
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: that are purporting to be real humans when they are not.

506
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: And it's just it's just like fine, Like the platforms

507
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: don't really care. It's totally legal, it's not stable. And

508
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: so I really think at some point in the future

509
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: we're going to look back at this time and just

510
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 2: like shake our heads and uh, I can't wait to

511
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: get to that future.

512
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: Yes, And what's so interesting to me is the woman

513
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: who was cloned the real woman really put it well

514
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,239
Speaker 1: that this is a credibility issue. If you are a

515
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: big TikToker and you make your living like I'm a podcaster,

516
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: I make my living putting my ideas out into the world,

517
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: expressing myself using my voice. If somebody cloned me, which

518
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: please don't do that. If you're listening in your thing,

519
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: I'm going to make a bridget clone, please don't. But

520
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: if somebody did, that could materially harm me as somebody

521
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: whose credibility and body of work depends on people being

522
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: able to trust me, people being able to take what

523
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: I say as something they should be listening to to

524
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: help them understand the world. If somebody steals my voice

525
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: in my likeness to just say whatever, to weigh in

526
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: on things that I would never weigh in on, or

527
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: put ideas out into the world that I would never express,

528
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: that could materially harm me in a real way.

529
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not like some new concept, Like we've had

530
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: laws about that sort of thing for many, many years. Right,

531
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: you can't just like impersonate someone else, like obviously there

532
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: are laws against that in the offline world. But somehow,

533
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: with this new technology, people are acting like it's fine,

534
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: even though It's like the exact same dynamic and the

535
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: exact same risk.

536
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: But what if you could impersonate somebody else and make

537
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: a little change doing it? Then what See the thing

538
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: is here companies like open ai are making money, So

539
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: what if you could do it and it was okay

540
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: and it was legal.

541
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: You know, it does get engagement, so the people want

542
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: it so.

543
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: Counter So the conversation about door dash Lady has really

544
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: gotten out of hand with AI clones and bots being

545
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: weaponized and lies and images being manipuulated. But to be clear,

546
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: I don't think this is some big conspiracy where DoorDash

547
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: is buying bots and AI clones to manipulate the conversation

548
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: around what happened here. It is possible, and I don't

549
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: put anything past or corporation. If you ever think a

550
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: company wouldn't do something absolutely fucking unhinged to protect their

551
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: bottom line, look into one of the weirdest stories I

552
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: have ever covered on this podcast, which is the eBay

553
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: stalking and harassment case, where high level eBay executives were

554
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: arrested for a year's long harassment campaign against an elderly

555
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: couple where they were doing things like putting dead animals

556
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: in their mailbox to harass them out of running a

557
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: blog about eBay. Right, So if you ever think, oh,

558
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: executives don't do shady stuff to protect their business interest,

559
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: they wouldn't do that. They would. So I'm not saying

560
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: this because I think it's a bridge too far that

561
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: a company would buy and exploit AI clones and bots

562
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: to manipulate a situation. But my gut is telling me

563
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: that what's going on here it's just an engagement thing.

564
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: It is possible that DoorDash is running this complex bot

565
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: and AI campaign to semere Livy, but I think what

566
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: is probably more likely is that these bots and AI

567
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: clones are jumping on any trending, big topic that people

568
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: are talking about on social media, and that they don't

569
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: care if it's based on amplifying lies about a real woman.

570
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: And that is what pisses me off and worries me

571
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: so much about this story. That we have reached a

572
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: point where there is an entire slate of digital tools,

573
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: including AI, that can be used to discredit somebody who

574
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: says that they were the victim of a sex crime,

575
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: because I've seen AI generated ring camera footage that supposedly

576
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: exonerates this man and proves that Livy open this door,

577
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: but it's not real. I've seen manipulated photos that purport

578
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: to exonerate this man. That is an image of this

579
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: man's front door that is obviously been cropped in such

580
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: a way to make the door look a lot less

581
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: open than Livy's footage initially showed what seems like, oh well,

582
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: the door was open just a tiny bit, but they've

583
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: cropped it to make it look that way. And because

584
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: Livy's original footage was taken down from TikTok, it's a

585
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: little bit harder for people to go back and compare

586
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: it with what she actually posted. Then you have obvious

587
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: bot accounts amplifying and repeating these claims to the point

588
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: where they've just become true online, whether or not they

589
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: actually happened or not. I've talked about how my ethos

590
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: on this show is that I'm a nosy bitch and

591
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: I just want to get to the bottom of what's

592
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: going on. So nosy bitch that I am. I have

593
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: searched high and low for any additional footage, ring camera footage,

594
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: other angles, whatever, whatever, all of the stuff that people

595
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: in bots say they have seen online that exonerates this man,

596
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: improves that Livy's in the wrong. I have not seen

597
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: a stitch of evidence. It just doesn't mass the smell

598
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: test with me. People upload videos on TikTok and elite them,

599
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: and there's always somebody that gets the screen shot. There's

600
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: always somebody that gets the screen recording of it. The

601
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: fact that there would not be a stitch of evidence

602
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: for this video that so many people have said that

603
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: they saw with their own eyes that exonerates this man.

604
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: I just don't believe that it's out there. It is

605
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: possible that it is, but I tell you I have

606
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: not if it exists, I have searched high and low.

607
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: I have not seen it. The only video footage of

608
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: the situation that I have found is the footage that

609
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: Livy took initially, which backs up her version of what

610
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: she says happened. More after a quick break, let's get

611
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: right back into it now. I want to be clear.

612
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: It is entirely possible that Livy did push that door

613
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: open and then whip out her phone and start filming

614
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: to a video that backs up her version of events.

615
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: It's entirely possible that that happened. We have no way

616
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: of knowing for sure, I am a mere spectator here,

617
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: just like everybody in this situation. But to me, that

618
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: makes absolutely no sense, just doesn't pass muster.

619
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: Earlier in this episode, you talked about how this whole

620
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: story one of the things that shows is how surveiled

621
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 2: we all are, and I think that's a good insight.

622
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: And part of that fact of life these days is

623
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: that there's an expectation of surveillance that of course there's

624
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: going to be multiple camera angles and there's like more

625
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: footage from somewhere else, And you know, I have to

626
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: wonder if that maybe is part of why people are

627
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: so like eager to believe that the other footage is

628
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: out there, because you know, this thing happened and there's

629
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: a lot of interest about it, and so of course

630
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: there has to be more footage, when in fact, most

631
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: things that happened in the world do not get recorded

632
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: on video.

633
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, I think it goes back to that

634
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: true crime brain rot where people assume everything's going to

635
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: happen the way it would happen in a fictional movie

636
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: or a fictional series, and in reality, there probably isn't

637
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: going to be any you know, extended footage that she

638
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: didn't know was being recorded. That comes out it could happen,

639
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: But I feel like if it was going to happen,

640
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: it would have happened already. Right, we had the footage

641
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: that we have as the footage that we have, and

642
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: you know this claim that Livy pushed the door open herself.

643
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: You know that my forever problematic fave is Judge. Judy,

644
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: she's one of my heroes. I think she's the best.

645
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: She has this thing that she says where she says

646
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: if something doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.

647
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: And to believe that Livy pushed that door open herself,

648
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: you would have to believe a lot of things that

649
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: just to me don't make any sense. So the door

650
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: was either open or the door was closed. If it

651
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: was open, than Livy's story and the results that followed

652
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: all makes sense checks out, got it. But if the

653
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: door was closed, like people on the internet would have,

654
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: you believed to exonerate this man. That means that Livy,

655
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: as a door dasher, walked up to a closed door

656
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: with an order, rather than leaving the order on the

657
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: porch as she was instructed to do, for some reason,

658
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: opened this closed door without permission on the off chance

659
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: that there might be a man exposing himself in there,

660
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: and jack Pot, could you believe it there was? What

661
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: are the odds? Then took out her phone started recording,

662
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: recorded it in such a way that made it seem

663
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: like that door had just been open, posted it to

664
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: the internet just to get hordes and hordes of negative

665
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: attention that led to her losing her only source of income.

666
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: Why what would be the endgame?

667
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 4: Like?

668
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: It just does not make sense. And when you add

669
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,959
Speaker 1: in the fact that we know that women lying about

670
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: things like sexual violence is statistically very uncommon. I think

671
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: that most studies estimate that false report rates are something

672
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: between two percent and eight percent. The overwhelming majority of

673
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 1: reports of sexual violence on his conduct are true. But

674
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: when you already have a narrative in your head that

675
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: women lie about sexual abuse for attention, which the Internet

676
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: definitely adds to, none of that reality makes any sense.

677
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: It all just goes right out the window. And I

678
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: think it illustrates how people will believe absolutely anything without

679
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: proof to validate this worldview about women and support a

680
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: worldview where people don't speak up when something like this

681
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: happens to them. If the entire Internet is going to

682
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: come together and use this arsenal of AI tools to

683
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: discredit a survivor of sexualized violence less unless people are

684
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: going to come forward. And I have to think that

685
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: is the point of all of this. And here is

686
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: something that I just have to add and have to say.

687
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: A lot of people on TikToker saying, hey, this guy

688
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: was just drunk or high passed out in his own home.

689
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: Even if he did have the door open, he didn't

690
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: really do anything wrong. So obviously, as I said, I

691
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: don't know any more about this situation than anybody else does.

692
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm just watching it from the sidelines. But come on,

693
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: women know when a man is trying to expose himself

694
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: to get his sexual kicks. We know. I have had

695
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: strangers exposed themselves to me twice in my life. The

696
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: first one happened when I was maybe fifteen a man.

697
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: I was walking down the street outside of my high

698
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: school and a man called me over and was like,

699
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: I'm in his car and was like, I'm can you

700
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: help me? I'm lost looking for directions. He had a

701
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: map unfolded out on his lap, and when I came over,

702
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: he moved the map and exposed himself to me, and

703
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: it wasn't a misunderstanding, It wasn't ambiguous. I didn't like

704
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: misunderstand something. I knew exactly what was going on instantly

705
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: right away. Women know when a man is trying to

706
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: do this. The fact that people are rushing in to

707
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: give this man the benefit of the doubt, I think

708
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: is really discounting the reality that women live in where

709
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: this kind of thing happens. I have to wonder if

710
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: the men who are saying, oh, this is totally normal behavior,

711
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: even if he did leave the door open and have

712
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: his self exposed, it's not that big of a deal.

713
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 1: I think that they are trying to create the conditions

714
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: where if they did that or something similar, it wouldn't

715
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: be a big deal. That's the only reason I could

716
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: think why you would jump to normalize what I think

717
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: we all can sort of see is like not normal behavior.

718
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: So again, this is just my opinion. But you're not

719
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: going to be able to convince me that somebody who

720
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: summoned a door dasher to their home just happened to

721
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: be waiting adjacent from the porch that they summoned them

722
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: to with their pants down. I'm unwilling to believe this

723
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: was not purposeful. This is my opinion, but it is

724
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: backed up by so much research about what we know

725
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: women experience who who are doing gigwork, because gigwork things

726
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: like lift, uber, uber eat stordash, It's just like this

727
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: for women. A study by University of British Columbia interviewed

728
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: twenty women gig workers in home services, food delivery, and

729
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: ride share in the US and Canada and found that

730
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: women often experience harassment, unwanted sexual comments or behavior, feel unsafe,

731
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: and face limited recourse. One woman they spoke to put

732
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: it like this, you just said, is it worth it?

733
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: Most of the time it's not, so you just don't.

734
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: Their study also found that women just brush off harassment

735
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: because of things like rating systems where if they get

736
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: enough bad ratings they'll be kicked off the platform, fear

737
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: of retaliation. All of that leads to women just brushing

738
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: off this kind of harassment. That same research highlights that

739
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: platforms often have gender agnostic design, in that the systems

740
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: do not account for women's specific vulnerabilities, and that gender

741
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: agnostic design just leads to women workers opting out of

742
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: risk your time, so saying, oh, I'm not going to

743
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: go to this, I'm gonna not take this order if

744
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: it's dark out, or if it's in a bad neighborhood

745
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: or something like that, which then worsens income gaps. A

746
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: separate study by the Markup found that among app based

747
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: drivers in Chicago, a high percentage felt unsafe, and that

748
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: female drivers reported higher rates of sexual harassment. Another UK

749
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: based study found that while app based courriers who are

750
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: mostly male faced harassment and assault, female couriers had particular

751
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: difficulties accessing reporting mechanisms and felt less supported. So the

752
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: research about women in gigwork pretty much backs up what

753
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: most of us anecdotally probably already knew that this kind

754
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: of sexualized harassment and abuse of women gig workers is

755
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: not rare. It's actually an occupational hazard recognized by scores

756
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: of research. That's why I didn't want to say Livy

757
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: was fired from door Dash, really because in the gig

758
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: economy it just comes with a lot less support for workers,

759
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: especially workers who are women, who are victims of sexualized

760
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: abuse while working. That's kind of the nature of the beasts.

761
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: With the gig economy, there's a lot less support structures,

762
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: things like reporting and deactivation protections and retaliation protections, and

763
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: when they do have these things, they're pretty inconsistent the

764
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: design of the gig economy. You have people who these

765
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: companies say are independent contractors, not employees. Things like app

766
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: rating systems, an algorithmic dispatch often puts workers in vulnerable

767
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: positions where they have less insight and don't have access

768
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: to things like formal HR. You know, humans we know

769
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: can be pretty variable in these uncontrolled environments. On top

770
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: of that, you have this power asymmetry baked in right

771
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: where the worker risks losing access to the platform or

772
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: is getting bad ratings if they complain, where they might

773
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: get kicked off of this of this app that is

774
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: a source of income for them that they need. And

775
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: so all of this makes it a perfect environment for

776
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that Livy says that she experienced

777
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: while doing door dash. And so while all these big

778
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: creators on TikTok are arguing that Livy pushed this door

779
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: open without permission to engineer this whole thing to make

780
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: herself an online victim, my question is what is more

781
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: likely that Livvy manipulated this whole situation just to get

782
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: attention online and make herselves sound like a victim online,

783
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: or that this guy was sexually harassing a woman gigworker

784
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: in a way the research could not make clearer. Is

785
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: incredibly commonplace for women who do this kind of work,

786
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: and so my question is, why are we not talking

787
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: about what we know about the risks and lack of

788
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: support for women in the gig economy like Livy In

789
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: a different social media landscape, that would be the conversation

790
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: we will be having. But I think it's a lot

791
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: more lucrative to instead talk about how Livy is a

792
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: liar who is lying for attention on the Internet, and

793
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: the man who exposed himself to a gig worker did

794
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: nothing wrong. Because if there's one thing that this moment

795
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: with Livy has showed me about the Internet, especially big

796
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: accounts on platforms like TikTok and honestly across every platform,

797
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 1: is that they will straight up lie about a woman

798
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: who says that she was a victim of sexual abuse

799
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: if it gets them clicks. And that is a problem.

800
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: These people are materially benefiting from lying about Livy. There

801
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,959
Speaker 1: is money in outrage, there's clout in being the first

802
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: one to jump on a story, whether or not it's true.

803
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: I saw somebody with lots and lots and lots of

804
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: followers say that Livy have been arrested for a false

805
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: report for falsely calling nine to one one to report

806
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: this man to the authorities. Keep in mind, Livy herself

807
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: said that she called a non emergency line and the

808
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: police officer actually showed up to have a conversation with

809
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 1: her about it, So why would she have been arrested

810
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: for that doesn't make any sense. People will just get

811
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: on this platform and lie to millions of people, and

812
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: they are financially incentivized to do so, so they don't

813
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: care about whether or not what they are saying is true.

814
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: They don't care about context, and they don't care about

815
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: helping anybody understand what is actually happening here, what actually

816
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: went on. They only care about engagement, even if that

817
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: means lying about somebody who is already going through something awful,

818
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: and when that person is a woman, the algorithm practically

819
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: throws a goddamn party. I started researching this story because

820
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: I just wanted to know what was going on. I

821
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: was curious, But the more and more videos I watched

822
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: of people with huge platforms and lots and lots of

823
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: followers across the Internet saying things about Livy that our lies,

824
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: our core are just completely unsubstantiated and not backed up

825
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: by anything. This pulled out of whole cloth. It really

826
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: pissed me off.

827
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,919
Speaker 5: So she gets online and makes up a story that

828
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 5: she was essayed by this gentleman, and it's just come

829
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 5: out today that she was lying about it. That the

830
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 5: man was asleep, had passed out on the couch, and

831
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 5: his pants just happened to be down a little bit.

832
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 5: So she walked into this man's house without his permission,

833
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 5: saw him on the couch, and started taking photos of him,

834
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 5: and then sent those photos to her false claiming that

835
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 5: this man that was passed out assaulted her. First of all,

836
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 5: does she just give the worst name to false accusing

837
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 5: men of that which you should never do, because now

838
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 5: you'll never be trusted. This is like if I was

839
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 5: that dude, I would sue door Dash for millions and

840
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 5: millions and millions of dollars. And that girl, she's not

841
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 5: gonna be able to show her face in public ever again.

842
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: And I say this to say that misogyny always finds

843
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: an audience online. It is reliable, it performs, it puts

844
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: money in pockets and butts in seats saying she's lying,

845
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: she's crazy, she just wants attention. All of those old

846
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: stereotype dusting them off and redoing them for the Internet

847
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: age will always do numbers. And that is what is

848
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: so dangerous about this, because it doesn't just pile on

849
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: one woman who got deactivated from door Dash. It sends

850
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: a message to everyone that women who call out creepy behavior,

851
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 1: threatening behavior, a legal behavior should just shut up. That

852
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: the men who do this kind of thing deserve protection,

853
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: even if that means lying for them, making AI generated

854
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: or manipulated content to support and exonerate them, and inventing

855
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: facts out of whole cloth to excuse their behavior. And

856
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: when you step back and look at this in a

857
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: bigger picture, the political and social moment that we're in

858
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: right now, where our rights are being literally rolled back,

859
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: the fact that social media can be so easily gamified

860
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: and weaponized to silence women should really scare the hell

861
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: out of us. Because if the algorithm keeps on rewarding

862
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: misogyny and lies and cruelty and honish people who are

863
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: just trying to speak up, and if we keep letting

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Speaker 1: online engagement be the arbiter of what is real and

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Speaker 1: what is not. Then it is not just going to

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Speaker 1: be women like Livy who lose. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: all of us. Got a story about an interesting thing

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Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. You can

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Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tangody dot com. You can

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Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com.

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

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00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: me Bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed

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00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is

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00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer.

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00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help

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Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:48:47,960 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.