Speaker 1: Now my understanding is international law posits that you have
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty eight years to file acclaim.
Speaker 2: So that to Alaska's good. But I think Hawaii like
Speaker 2: we're losing Alaska. Guys, that's done, Hawaii. I think the
Speaker 2: statute of limitations is out.
Speaker 3: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she. I served in
Speaker 3: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover
Speaker 3: all around the.
Speaker 4: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA,
Speaker 4: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.
Speaker 3: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we
Speaker 3: created conspiracies.
Speaker 4: In our operations. We got people to believe things that
Speaker 4: weren't true.
Speaker 3: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the
Speaker 3: news almost every day.
Speaker 4: Will break them down for you to determine whether they
Speaker 4: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Mission implausible.
Speaker 1: Bien venidos a la mission sine possible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because miss so today my brothers, John Zeifer and
Speaker 4: Adam Davidson, I have a question for you. What is
Speaker 4: it that cost eleven million, three hundred and sixty two thousand,
Speaker 4: four hundred and eighty one rubles and ninety four copex.
Speaker 3: My guess, because I know what we're going to talk about.
Speaker 3: I think is the price that the Russians paid for Alaska.
Speaker 4: Exactly right, and they wanted back. That's the conspiracy we'll
Speaker 4: talk about today, not one of ours, but a Russian
Speaker 4: conspiracy that apparently is pushing it. It's not just something
Speaker 4: we're bringing up. This is something that last week on
Speaker 4: Russian Channel one, which is sort of the Tucker Carlson
Speaker 4: of the Russian Television World, said that the Russians intend
Speaker 4: to take back the Baltic Steakes, Poland, Finland, Alaska and
Speaker 4: maybe even Hawaii. Did they ever have Hawaii? Yes, and
Speaker 4: I'll come to that. But to underline this is that
Speaker 4: the Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman said that, yes, this is
Speaker 4: indeed an ongoing Russian project.
Speaker 3: Whereas it is worth laughing about on one level, it
Speaker 3: is worth seeing what they're doing in Ukraine being outraged
Speaker 3: on the other level, and there's a lot of countries
Speaker 3: that have suffered from Russian imperialism. In fact, a lot
Speaker 3: of people in the United States chirp about imperialism and
Speaker 3: imperialistic this and imperialistic that. We are seeing what real
Speaker 3: imperialism is with the Russians. And in fact, if you
Speaker 3: look at Russian history beginning with the reign of Ivan
Speaker 3: the Terrible in the sixteenth century, Russia has expanded literally
Speaker 3: at an average rate of fifty square miles per day
Speaker 3: for hundreds of years. Seriously, so their desire to take
Speaker 3: land is almost what defines the Russian character or Russia.
Speaker 3: There's never really been a Russia of just Russians in
Speaker 3: Russian borders. It's always been this view that we need
Speaker 3: to grow and Russian needs to be bigger than it is.
Speaker 4: So let's go down the Russian rabbit hole on this.
Speaker 4: So the Alaska payment conspiracy, also known as the Orkney
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory, has it that after the US agreed to
Speaker 4: pay seven point two million dollars to Russia, it's one
Speaker 4: hundred and twenty nine million dollars today. That was Seward's
Speaker 4: folly in eighteen sixty seven. That's two cents an acre
Speaker 4: to Russia for Alaska. That the money, apparently, according to
Speaker 4: the conspiracy theory, never arrived and the gold was put
Speaker 4: on a ship called the Orkney in eighteen sixty eight,
Speaker 4: and that ship sank in the Baltic and the money
Speaker 4: never arrived, and it gets interesting and it is a
Speaker 4: deep rabbit hole. The ship would belonged to a guy
Speaker 4: by the name of Alexander Keith who was a Scottish
Speaker 4: Canadian American Confederate spy and was known for insurance frauds,
Speaker 4: and what he would do is he would sink ships
Speaker 4: and then claim the insurance money for it. And it
Speaker 4: all went bad for him in eighteen seventy five when
Speaker 4: he sak a ship called the Mosl outside of Germany
Speaker 4: and eighty one people eyed on the ship by mistake,
Speaker 4: and so he committed suicide. So the Russians are claiming
Speaker 4: that this is the case. Now I do have to
Speaker 4: jump in and say that although they've got this ornate
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory about how they never got paid all those rubles,
Speaker 4: there's really no historical undergirdy, no banking for that. Apparently
Speaker 4: they were paid, but claiming they're not is part of
Speaker 4: them saying that they intend to take Klaskoebec on the
Speaker 4: Hawaiian front. This gets even more interesting, and that they're
Speaker 4: the little known But on the island of Kawai, the
Speaker 4: Russians established sort of a trading post and for years
Speaker 4: there was a Russian fort called Fort Elizabeth in Hawaii
Speaker 4: run by this crazy German in the service of the Tzar.
Speaker 4: And recently a woman by the name of Elena Branson,
Speaker 4: who has been charged by the FBI with being an
Speaker 4: agent of the Russian government showed up in Kawai and
Speaker 4: apparently paid off some of the local councilors with gifts
Speaker 4: and free trips to Ruussia to try to keep the
Speaker 4: fort from being renamed to its original Hawaiian name and
Speaker 4: pushing the fact that this is Russian land. So Russian
Speaker 4: agents have actually been to Kawai to try to stake
Speaker 4: their claim.
Speaker 2: Explain how it could be Russian land.
Speaker 4: Well, when the Russians showed up in the eighteen forties,
Speaker 4: they claimed the entire kingdom and especially the island of
Speaker 4: Kawai for the emperor. So why does Spain claim like
Speaker 4: most of Latin America Because Christopher Columbus showed up right
Speaker 4: and he stuck his flagle the Russians. The Russians did
Speaker 4: the same thing in Hawaii.
Speaker 1: Now, my understanding is international law posits that you have
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty eight years to file a claim
Speaker 1: that so Alaska is good. But I think Hawaii, like
Speaker 1: we're losing Alaska. Guys, that's done, Hawaii. I think the
Speaker 1: Statute of Limitations is out. I do love this element
Speaker 1: of conspiracy theories. There's a lot of these of these,
Speaker 1: like sovereign citizen movements that have they'll read some document
Speaker 1: from the eighteen seventies or something and say that maritime
Speaker 1: law is actually the only law that oversees America and
Speaker 1: that we should dig into this at some point. The
Speaker 1: whole thing about how the United States stopped being a
Speaker 1: country and became a corporation. It's nutty stuff, but it
Speaker 1: is all based on this idea that there's somewhere in
Speaker 1: some archives, some slip of paper that proves that this
Speaker 1: massive thing in history is different. I guess it also
Speaker 1: animates many a Nicholas Cage film. I'm trying to think,
Speaker 1: has that ever actually happened where something like that happens.
Speaker 4: States only have authority if people accept it. And conspiracy
Speaker 4: theories are all about alternative narratives. So is this something
Speaker 4: that Kremlin is pushing or this is something that's just
Speaker 4: popular because it's Russians like to talk like this.
Speaker 3: Well, it's not a new conspiracy in the sense I
Speaker 3: can remember Wulfovich Wolf, the Wolf Joe.
Speaker 4: Who is he?
Speaker 3: He's sort of the Russian Alex Jones and he ran
Speaker 3: for president every time until he died in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: Not a huge fan of the Jews, No, no, no,
Speaker 3: not at all, although there was a that he was Jewish,
Speaker 3: and yeah, he's sort of a crazy guy. I think
Speaker 3: the Krunlin let him run because it would make Putin
Speaker 3: look more reasonable. His opponent was this sort of nutty
Speaker 3: right wing guy, Vladimir Jeronovsky. And interestingly, when I served
Speaker 3: in Moscow undercover as a diplomat, I went to visit
Speaker 3: him at his office and it was in this sort
Speaker 3: of nasty building with the urine soaked stairs, and I
Speaker 3: went into his office and I had to sit down
Speaker 3: with him, and he would talk about how Russia owns
Speaker 3: Alaska and Russia is going to take over the South,
Speaker 3: and we're going to take over India and he would
Speaker 3: had a big map on his wall and he smoke
Speaker 3: a cigarette and he goes, then we're going to take
Speaker 3: New Della and he would take a cigarette, you'd burn
Speaker 3: a hole where New Delhi was on the map. He's
Speaker 3: funny though, so I remember seeing him at Estonian National Day.
Speaker 3: When I was there, it was very soon after Estoni
Speaker 3: had become a country, and they had a nice little
Speaker 3: country house which was their embassy, and they had a
Speaker 3: National Day celebration. And so I was sitting there, I
Speaker 3: was chatting with the new ambassador, the Estonian ambassador, and
Speaker 3: Joronofsky saw me and knew me. So he walked up
Speaker 3: to me, said hi, and he said, who's this guy.
Speaker 3: The Estonian ambassador had a little bow tie on, look
Speaker 3: very diplomatic, and I said, well, this is the Estonian ambassador.
Speaker 3: And Joronowski grabs him by the shoulder and says, you know,
Speaker 3: I like you. I'm going to make you the governor
Speaker 3: of Estonia once we take it over again.
Speaker 4: Let's take a breather and back in a moment, and
Speaker 4: we're back.
Speaker 3: So this view that Alaska really belongs to Russia, just
Speaker 3: like Ukraine belongs to Russia, and Finland belongs to Russia
Speaker 3: and Poland belongs to Russia. These are things that have
Speaker 3: been going on for a long time.
Speaker 4: There may be some in like on the right wing
Speaker 4: in the US that might actually appreciate Russia taking over California,
Speaker 4: because that's also a claim they're making.
Speaker 3: I lived in San Francisco. I ran our office in
Speaker 3: San Francisco, and I used to go up to Fort Ross,
Speaker 3: which is the farthest south that the Russians got from
Speaker 3: the Alaska territories. They had a fort where they would
Speaker 3: deal with, you know, sea otters and send stuff back
Speaker 3: to their folks in Alaska. And it's a beautiful place
Speaker 3: right on the coast. There's a nice Fort Ross winery
Speaker 3: right there, right by Bodego Bay where the Russian River
Speaker 3: goes into the Pacific Ocean.
Speaker 1: I love a Russian River pino noir. Is that why
Speaker 1: it's called the Russian River, because indeed it is. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's interesting. I remember in the early nineties I worked
Speaker 1: at the local public radio affiliate in Chicago, WBEZ, and
Speaker 1: we had a local station. It was an international affairs
Speaker 1: talk show, but it was just a local talk show
Speaker 1: hosted by Sandra Guahre, and she would have this one
Speaker 1: guy on a lot who seemed completely nutty and was
Speaker 1: laying out this whole plan about how he was going
Speaker 1: to get an international coalition to take back Iraq and
Speaker 1: he was going to lead Iraq. And he just seemed
Speaker 1: like pathetic and silly, not Lisa, which by the fact
Speaker 1: that one of his main outlets seemed to be our
Speaker 1: little local public radio station. That man, of course, was
Speaker 1: Ahmed Chalabi, who in fact accomplished that very thing.
Speaker 4: You know, we might snicker at their conspiracy theories as
Speaker 4: they would as ours, but I think people in the Baltics,
Speaker 4: or Finland or Poland, which has been divided how many
Speaker 4: times in the last two hundred years, you know, the
Speaker 4: Russians have taken it over, let it go, taken it over,
Speaker 4: let it go. And I don't think they think it's
Speaker 4: quite so funny. If you're a Stonian or if you're finished,
Speaker 4: you remember, the Russians did still half of Finland, they
Speaker 4: took the whole career, and they still have it. I
Speaker 4: think if fifteen years ago we had listened to some
Speaker 4: Russians saying that they were going to take over Ukraine
Speaker 4: again after Russia famously gave assurances to the Ukrainian government
Speaker 4: that it would recognize their sovereignty forever if they gave
Speaker 4: up nuclear weapons, which the Ukrainians then did, and then
Speaker 4: that the Russians would try to take Ukraine and deny
Speaker 4: that Ukraine even exists. I think those national narratives are
Speaker 4: really powerful.
Speaker 3: Well, that's why these countries, including Finland recently, but other
Speaker 3: countries in Eastern Europe want to join NATO because they
Speaker 3: understand the long history of Russian imperialists. And when Russia
Speaker 3: says these things, there's a lot of experience to show
Speaker 3: that they mean them.
Speaker 4: And it's gotten so bad that even Sweden, breaking four
Speaker 4: hundred years of neutrality, has decided to join NATO. So
Speaker 4: they clearly, those people closest to the problem, they see
Speaker 4: it as a real issue.
Speaker 3: They know it's not a conspiracy, right.
Speaker 4: But even in US history, I mean, we had manifest
Speaker 4: Destiny or forty two to forty or fight, which basically
Speaker 4: said that we were going to take Canada too, which
Speaker 4: we didn't do because we didn't want to like tangle
Speaker 4: with a British empire. But we did take all of
Speaker 4: the US and the Spanish parts and the French part.
Speaker 1: I just am thinking through the practicalities, like when has
Speaker 1: this happened? I mean, I guess that happened with the
Speaker 1: creation of South Sudan. What happens so are people offered
Speaker 1: like now you're a Russian citizen.
Speaker 3: Well, we see examples in Ukraine as immediately after they
Speaker 3: moved into Ukraine, they gave Russian citizenship and they made
Speaker 3: everybody in the dombas in Crimea get Russian passports, and
Speaker 3: the schools they brought in teachers, so the schools, the
Speaker 3: kids all have to learn Russian and not Ukrainian. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean they're pretty they're pretty serious about it. That's
Speaker 3: why those countries there know.
Speaker 2: That it's not a joke.
Speaker 4: You know, every conversation like this comes back to the Nazis.
Speaker 4: One of Hitler's main goals in the East was what
Speaker 4: Laban's realm?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: He was going to take back ancestral German Lands and
Speaker 4: he did for a little while. And what did he
Speaker 4: do with the local populations? You know, he tended to
Speaker 4: kill them all off?
Speaker 2: Like how do we define conspiracy?
Speaker 1: So in one way we define it as like this
Speaker 1: specific thing either did happen or didn't happen.
Speaker 4: I think the conspiracy is to create a conspiracy theory,
Speaker 4: which is the fiction. But when the Russian Foreign Ministry
Speaker 4: spokesman Maria Zarkarova says that, yeah, taking back Alaska is
Speaker 4: part of an ongoing project, people sit around and hit
Speaker 4: a meeting. We know from the US government. Before the
Speaker 4: Foreign Ministry makes a statement, they sit around and they
Speaker 4: talk about it. This isn't just hear this is the
Speaker 4: Russian government. So there were meetings and people conspired to
Speaker 4: say we're going to push this conspiracy theory.
Speaker 1: I will say a major learning for me from this podcast,
Speaker 1: not from either of you. You've never ever learned the thing,
Speaker 1: but that in spite of us, in spite of you,
Speaker 1: somehow some of our guests occasionally get a word in
Speaker 1: and that conspiracy theories are often the conspiracy. That creating
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories is a major tool of state craft, of scamcraft.
Speaker 1: If we can call whatever Alex Jones is doing, but
Speaker 1: then that should be even easier to figure out why.
Speaker 1: Like we know, Russia wants to sew confusion and chaos
Speaker 1: about anything, right, So if college kids are fighting over
Speaker 1: you Israel power sign, we'll send stuff that supports both
Speaker 1: sides just to create more anger, and we'll try and
Speaker 1: get both sides to be more extreme. The goal isn't
Speaker 1: to change that policy, it's just to sow discord.
Speaker 3: Well, the conspiracy to invade Ukraine, there was a conspiracy, right,
Speaker 3: so they decided they were going to do it. They conspired,
Speaker 3: then they decided to lie about it. We're not going
Speaker 3: to invade, No, 're not those troops. Is just an exercise,
Speaker 3: And of course they invaded this where they're open saying, yes,
Speaker 3: we are interested in retaking Finnish Land and Alaska and
Speaker 3: these other kind of places. You could argue its possible
Speaker 3: they mean it, but it might be more possible that
Speaker 3: they're just trying to sow fear to give them an advent.
Speaker 3: They just position when there's negotiations.
Speaker 4: So in Hawaii, this one, you know, local chairman, she's
Speaker 4: brought back to Russia, she's faateed, she's given gifts and money,
Speaker 4: and she goes back to Hawaii. And what she does
Speaker 4: in return is she writes this article where she basically
Speaker 4: supports Russian claims to Kauwai.
Speaker 1: Well, they don't want Vermont because they already got it.
Speaker 1: That's my joke about how a bunch of lefties.
Speaker 3: The Russians aren't necessarily lefties anymore.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, your point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think the average vermontra has updated their
Speaker 1: understanding of global politics in about nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 4: So I'm going to stay here in Hawaii, standing guard
Speaker 4: to keep the Russian hordes at Bay.
Speaker 3: My advice is you have a lot of alcohol on
Speaker 3: the hand, so when they get there and they get drunk,
Speaker 3: they'll give us some time to then coalesce our forces.
Speaker 1: That was something I remember the soldiers in Iraq, the
Speaker 1: American soldiers talking about how they heard that Russian MREs.
Speaker 2: The meals ready to eat.
Speaker 1: Their soldiers get contained little bottles of vodka and they
Speaker 1: were very jealous.
Speaker 2: Is that true.
Speaker 4: No, the MRI doesn't stand for that, It stands for meals.
Speaker 4: Refusing to excrete that is true.
Speaker 3: They do join us next week on mission implausible