1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and while there are the podcast, 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, And today on the show, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about so many issues that I can relate to, Caroline, 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: but they resonate with you and I'm sure that a 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: lot of our listeners deal with this as well. Issues 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: at the workplace. Yeah, no matter where you work, issues 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: about burnout and boundaries really affect us. All that feeling 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: of kind of spinning your tires as you go through 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the week rather than you know, driving smoothly on through 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: your days exactly. And also that on top of navigating 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: gender discrimination and gender biases in the workplace that so 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: many women and especially women of color face. And we're 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: going to talk to in just a little bit a 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: friend of the show, Emily Ayres, who is the CEO 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: and founder of bossed Up, which is an organization she 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: started specifically to help women navigate those burnout issues and 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: merge what's happening in your work life with your home life, because, 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: as we talked about in our at Leisure episode, the 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: lines are there is no line anymore. There is no line, 21 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: and so you start to feel like Okay, I've got 22 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: to answer emails at eleven PM, or I have to 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: be expected to send emails at eleven PM. And rather 24 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: than focusing on maybe limiting your work to a certain 25 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: set number of hours and focusing on quality work, it's 26 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: really easy for a lot of people to end up 27 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: in the busy trap of like, oh, I've just got 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: to be busy, and I have to look like I'm 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: working really hard. And that whole looking like I'm working 30 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: really hard thing isn't necessarily to impress other people. It 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: might be just something that you've internalized within yourself. Yeah. 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: I mean I think that we, especially if you work 33 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: in digital at all, we are in a culture, a 34 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: workplace culture of business. I mean I hear this conversation 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: from not only people I work with here at how 36 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: stuff works, but also friends of mine who routinely talk 37 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: about you know, and I'm included in this group of like, oh, 38 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: I was up until ex o'clock working, and working at 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: o'clock is my favorite hour to stay up until ex o'clock. Yeah, 40 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: when you're working at ex o'clock, you know, it's pretty rough. Um, 41 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: But listen, Caroline, I gotta tell you that I was 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: guilty of doing the whole like buzziness kind of thing 43 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: to you earlier today, earlier today, earlier today. Indeed, you 44 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: asked me how I was doing, and I just said, oh, busy, busy, 45 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: which I mean she did look scared when she said it. 46 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: If that helps set the scene, I mean, granted, my 47 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: outlook calendar today is crazy, horrifying, yes, and legitimately I 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: am busy. But as I was thinking about what we 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: were going to talk about today, in these issues of 50 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: uh work and burnout and all of that, I was like, oh, 51 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: that's that is part of the trap of kind of 52 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: kicking up that dust of your own business sort of 53 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: let everyone else know what's going on. So right after 54 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: this conversation happens, Kristin and I had to dip into 55 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: a meeting, which is one of the outlook things that 56 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: she's referring to. And as our colleagues were talking, I 57 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: swear I was listening to what they were saying. But 58 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: as they were talking, I started to think, like, well, 59 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: Kristen and I basically have the same outlook calendar because 60 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: we are like work partners, and so I was like, wait, 61 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: should I worry? Should I be worried? Should I be 62 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: more stressed than I am. I mean I'm pretty like 63 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: like mid stress, like, but my constant state of anxieties 64 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: like pretty high. And like I had this conversation my 65 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: therapist and so like I started going expiraling in that meeting, 66 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: and I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna 67 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: worry about it. I might not get lunch today, I 68 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: might have to eat dinner at four o'clock because that's 69 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: just how that's going to shake out. But uh, you know, 70 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: maybe I maybe this day, this is the day that 71 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 1: I'm going to release all of that business anxiety trap stuff. 72 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: But see, that's how contagious this stuff is. It took 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: me saying one word busy. And as to your question, 74 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: how are you for that to then set off a 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: mental spiral in your head? Well, it's like if Conger's worried, 76 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: should I be worried? Well? And the thing is too, 77 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: if we if we expand beyond the world of CE 78 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: and C. Wait, there's a bigger world out there, I know, 79 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: surprisingly beyond you know this podcast studio. There is another world. Um, 80 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: And it does seem like the research tells us that 81 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: women are more prone to overwork and burnout Yeah, that's 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: coming from research from this group called Mackenzie and Company, 83 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: and they found that not only are women more liely 84 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: to burn out, but they are less likely to climb 85 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: that corporate ladder, which to me is the definition of 86 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: wheel spinning. You're so busy you're less likely to take 87 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: a break than a dude, but you're not then climbing 88 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: the ladder. And now I'm realizing that I'm comparing wheels 89 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: and ladders and you can't drive up a ladder. That's 90 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: the game of shoots and ladders. Yes, so does that 91 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: help this make sense if we say yes, I don't know. 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: I don't know either. I think the fact that I 93 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: don't know means no. Let's introduce Emily a little bit 94 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: for our listeners and then dive into that conversation. Yeah. So, 95 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: Emily's got a fascinating story. She talks about how her 96 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: quote overachieving sprint through the semester habits that served her 97 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: well in college left her spinning her wheels and exhausted. 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: And it's that drive, though, that led her to start 99 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: this company because once she focused on whoa, I feel 100 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: burned out and out of control. Oh wait, this isn't 101 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: just me this is so many women, how can I 102 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: help other women? And the academic background she's bringing into 103 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: this was a focus on the intersections of women in politics, 104 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: gender equity, theory of feminist theories and how those functions 105 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: in the everyday lives of women. So she has all 106 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff Mom never told you, related info ready 107 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: to share with us. So let's not transition this conversation 108 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: we've been having about women in the workplace, ambition and 109 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: burnout to our chat with Emily Airs, founder and CEO 110 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: of bossed Up. Emily, thank you so much for joining 111 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: Caroline and me today. My pleasure be here. Thanks so 112 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: much for having me huge and stuff Mom never told 113 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: j fan excellent. Well, I have a feeling that you 114 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: are about to have a lot of stuff. Mom ever 115 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: told you, fans um, So could you tell our listeners 116 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: who you are and what you and bossed up are 117 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: all about? Absolutely so. I'm Emily Areas, the founder and 118 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: CEO of bossed Up. We are a training company based 119 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: in the Nation's capital, Washington, d C. And we help 120 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: women navigate career transition and beat burnout. And frankly, this 121 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: whole endeavor, this adventure that has been launching my own 122 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: company is really personal to me. I burnt out very 123 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: quickly as a young woman in the workplace working as 124 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: a campaign organizer on behalf of President Obama. Back in 125 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, I helped past health reform as 126 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: the youngest state director in the nation with organizing for America, 127 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: and over the course of a few years of working 128 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: my butt off, frankly for causes and organizations, I believed 129 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: in my whole personal life was falling apart. And it 130 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: came to a head when I realized that if I 131 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: didn't change my strategies, if I didn't change the way 132 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: in which I was working, which frankly wasn't working at all, 133 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: but I was not going to be able to be 134 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: in this fight for the long haul. That I needed 135 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: to stop operating on what I call a semester sprint 136 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: mentality and start really investing in my sustainable success. Well, 137 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: so you talk on your website about this martyrdom mindset 138 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: that women are susceptible to, and how does that plan 139 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: to burnout? And do you think that there's a generational 140 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: difference between older women and younger women. Oh that's a 141 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: really good question. So, first of all, like you too, 142 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: I'm a huge research junkie, so I absolutely love where 143 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: social science comes into play and all of this. And 144 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of research we can talk about around 145 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: burnout and gender, but frankly it's lacking. The researchers really 146 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: lacking around uh, intergenerational differences with burnout end whether or 147 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: not women are more susceptible to burnout. There's a lot 148 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: of research out there that's a little bit closer to 149 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: the issue, and that does show some gender differences between 150 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: how men and women experience burnout. For example, women are 151 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: shown to experience the exhaustion part of burnout, whereas men 152 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: are more likely to start there. You know, challenges with 153 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: burnout with things like cynicism and feeling a lack of 154 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,599 Speaker 1: effectiveness or detachment from their work. UM. And frankly, we 155 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: should back up here a little bit just to talk 156 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: about what burnout really is. What do I mean when 157 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: I say burnout? Because so often we UM, you know, 158 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: sort of colloquially use burnout to say I'm just having 159 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: a really long week and I'm totally burned to the 160 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: heck out, when in reality, burnout is a serious disorder 161 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: UM that is characterized by a state of chronic stress 162 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: and can lead to things like exhaustion, cynicism, detachment. And 163 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: what's scary about burnout is it starts to make you 164 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: feel less engaged in things that used to really light 165 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: you up and really set you on fire, things that 166 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: you used to be all jazzed about. And this can 167 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: obviously lead to more serious psychological disorders with depression and anxiety, which, 168 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: as we know, is the topic you two have shared 169 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: a lot about and covered deeply on this podcast. And frankly, 170 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: is you know an epidemic that I think a lot 171 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: of us women in particular, have struggled with over the years. 172 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: So what have you learned from your research and your 173 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: personal experience, um in terms of how we might set 174 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: ourselves up for burnout? Like you mentioned the semester sprint, 175 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: the martyrdom mindset kind of what are those precursors? Yeah, 176 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: let's talk about those, because I I have discovered through 177 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: trial and error in my own life and through working 178 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,599 Speaker 1: with hundreds of women now across the country, and the 179 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: growing body of research that exists out there, as well 180 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: as the fact that I should say, we're in the 181 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: process of securing more funding to do our own research 182 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: on this matter and really died deeper into gender differences 183 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: with burnout. UM. But to me, the martyrdom mindset is 184 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: this troubling framework that brings many of us men and 185 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: women alike UH to burnout. And the martyrdom mindset is 186 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: super simple. It essentially says to us or it's a 187 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: presupposition that we carry, especially here in the United States, 188 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: that says success requires suffering. Right. It's this underlying assumption 189 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: that in order to be quote unquote successful whatever that means, 190 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: that we need to suffer, that we need to work 191 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: ourselves to the bone. And I honestly think that this 192 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: goes back to our roots with the Protestant work ethic 193 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: here in the United States. UM. But it is sometimes 194 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: subtly communicated in our family life and how we're raised 195 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: and whether we're praised for achievements or effort, and sometimes 196 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: it's not so at all. For instance, this past weekend, 197 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: I had the great pleasure of heading back to the 198 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: eighth annual Yale Women's Leadership conference called We Women, and 199 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: I delivered a keynote address on sustainable success, the murder 200 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: too mind set, all the stuff that we're discussing, and 201 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: it was well received and then I went into a 202 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: panpel immediately afterwards, just to sit in and hear some 203 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: of one of their incredible women that they had speaking there, 204 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: and one of the uh really highly respected career coaches 205 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: who had been a lawyer initially but turned to career coaching. 206 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: I was sitting there talking about UM talking to a 207 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: room full of undergrads and literally said, you know, in 208 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: those first couple of years out of college quote you 209 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: need to work yourself to death. And she said she 210 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: heard it right, she heard herself and said, listen, I 211 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: don't know how else to say it, but like, that's 212 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: what it takes. And I just was sort of flabbergasted 213 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: and horrified, sitting in the back of the row. And 214 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: what is ironic is how afterwards she came up to 215 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: me and praised me on my message, and we talked 216 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: about how many core values we share and beliefs that 217 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: we share. And so there's this real cognitive dissonance in 218 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: the United States, especially where we believe that we all 219 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: should deserve health and happiness, but we also fundamentally believe 220 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: that career success is incongruent with a happy, healthy lifestyle. 221 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to see that a growing body of research 222 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: and organizational psych college and personal development is showing that happier, 223 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: healthier workers are more productive and focused and frankly better 224 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: for the bottom line. So we are at a critical 225 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: change moment in the world, grappling with things like mass 226 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: automation and globalization, in which we have to make a 227 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: choice about our values, especially here in the United States. 228 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: But if we value workers truly, if we truly believe 229 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: that people should be able to be productive, to achieve 230 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: their full potential, and to live a comfortable and reasonable, happy, 231 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: healthy lifestyle, then we have to make big changes in 232 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: terms of how our organizations and institutions and how we 233 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: individually operate in terms in that sort of striving for success, uh, 234 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: each and every one of us. So I like to 235 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: focus on the personal level, and I'm happy to get 236 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: more specific in terms of what that means. So do 237 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: you see your work and the work of bossed Up 238 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: as sort of undoing this culture of busyness that we 239 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: see so many think pieces about lately. You know, everybody 240 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: in America so busy, and we're so proud of how 241 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: busy we are, and we brag about our business, but 242 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, a Are we really 243 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: as busy as we say we are and be? Are 244 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: we really trying to be proud of just working ourselves 245 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: to death? Like that? One woman said, so, so do 246 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: you feel like the work you're doing is counteracting that 247 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: totally and completely? And it's always been my goal just 248 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: sort of help others see that there's a different an 249 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: avenue to success um And I think it started with 250 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: my my own personal experience, right. I was going through 251 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: life as a young woman with a big leadership role, 252 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: feeling stressed about my work life. But furthermore, we're also 253 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: finding myself falling into the traditional caretaker roles that society 254 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: really conditions us women to assume. And what that meant 255 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: for me is that I was I found myself in 256 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: a relationship with a brilliant, hard working man who also 257 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: struggles with alcoholism, and so all of a sudden, there 258 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: I am twenty two, twenty three years old, big job, 259 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: living with this man I loved, and having to feel 260 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: responsible for taking care of my boss and my boyfriend 261 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: and my volunteers and the causes and campaigns I was 262 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: working on. And everybody else came first except me. Everyone 263 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: else came before me, And so I I realized how 264 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: untenable a strategy that was, or how unsustainable a strategy 265 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: that kind of lifestyle and framework and mindset really was, 266 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: And to me, I had to get out of this 267 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: pattern of behavior that I've been taught my entire life 268 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: to be nice. Frankly, it came to a head when 269 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: I hit total rock bottom. I was so tired of 270 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: being tired and feeling inefficient and totally struggling with burnout, 271 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: to the point where I was stopped at a stoplight. 272 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: Right I was on my alma maters campus, Brown University, 273 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: driving through since I was organizing politically there, uh, and 274 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: I watched a bunch of college students roll their bags 275 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: home for Thanksgiving break, and something inside me was breaking 276 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: at that very moment, because all I wanted was permission 277 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: to go home, to relax, to sort of take a break, 278 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: and not feel seven tethered to my work, to my responsibilities, 279 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: and to carrying everyone else around me. And it was 280 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: that moment when I realized I needed to change my thinking. 281 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: I needed to change my approach radically, and I started 282 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: hitting the books like I did as a student, like 283 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: I always have, and one quote that always came back 284 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: to me was from feminist author Audrey Lord, who says, 285 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: caring for myself is not self indulgence, it's self preservation, 286 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: and that is an act of political warfare. And so 287 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: that's really at the crux of what I do at 288 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: bos Stop. I've created the conditions to replicate the same 289 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: acceleration that I experienced in my life when I changed 290 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: my strategies and my approach for many other women across industries, 291 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: but primarily women who are facing inflection points in their careers, 292 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: forks in the road, navigating transition points because they have 293 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: decided to bring themselves to that transition point, either by 294 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: saying I'm done with this career, I'm done with this job, 295 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: or I'm in a new place in a new stay, 296 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm starting over. Or women who have found themselves at 297 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: a fork in the road they didn't ask for, you know, 298 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: the year old divorced, the you know, thirty three year 299 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 1: old career woman who is navigating the rocky terrain that 300 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: is having a child in the United States while wanting 301 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: to work full time and on an advanced career path. 302 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: What knows We can't do this alone as individuals. Obviously, 303 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: I think the big asterisks here and the elephant in 304 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: the room and all of these conversations is that we 305 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: need organizational change, We need political change, policy change. This 306 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: is not something individual women can can do overnight, and 307 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: definitely not by ourselves and not just women right. This 308 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: is a conversation that absolutely requires our male counterparts to 309 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: be involved in. It makes so much sense in terms 310 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: of needing that organizational change for companies to catch up 311 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: to these needs that we have. But I'm wondering how 312 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: this also relates to the increasing economy of freelancers and entrepreneurs, who, 313 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: like you, are people who are essentially becoming their own bosses. Totally. 314 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: I love this question, Kristen. I was actually at the 315 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: United States Capital not too long ago, a few months ago, 316 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: was with the Women's Economic Forum rolling out a new 317 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: agenda for I believe they said like the New Women's 318 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: Economic Agenda. And throughout this conversation it talked about how 319 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: employers and employees need to take better care of one another, 320 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: and how we need better structures for workers rights and 321 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: protections from a federal level, from a union level. And 322 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: I raised my hand at the back of the room. 323 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: I think I was obviously out of place. First of all, 324 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: as one of the much younger people in the room, 325 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: and I raised my hand and said, you know, hi, 326 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm Emily. I am a millennial. I started my own 327 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: business for the flexibility that it afford me, but also 328 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: for less of out the reasons of course, what you know, 329 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: how do we fit into this equation? And the head 330 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: of the a f l C. I Oh was there, 331 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren, Senator Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts, kicked it off 332 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: and I asked this question, and not those two folks 333 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: in particular, but on the whole. Their response was, well, 334 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: there's so few of the what that it's it's that 335 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: there aren't that many freelancers and entrepreneurs and so like 336 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: that's kind of a you know, not central to this 337 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: whole plan. And so that shocked me as being incredibly inadequate. 338 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: And I sort of wonder, Okay, who's representing the interests 339 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: of workers who are less likely to stay in one 340 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: place where twenty five years at a time, a k 341 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: A all of us? Right? And so this is in 342 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: my opinion as someone who got my start in politics, 343 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: got my start as an advocate on behalf of workers rights, 344 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: and especially through the health care fight, advocated for those 345 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: individuals like me who were going to be kicked off 346 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: of mom and Dad's insurance pretty soon. So when I 347 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: stopped being a political organizer, I got back on my 348 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: parents insurance thanks to Obamacare, until I was twenty six 349 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: years old, and I started my business that same year. 350 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: And on January one, when I lost my parents insurance, 351 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: even though it was extended thanks to Obamacare, I was 352 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: in the first class of people who were enabled to 353 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: enroll as an individual in the UH in the healthcare 354 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: marketplace for group rates. So thanks to Obamacare, it enabled 355 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: me to start my business with the security of having 356 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: health insurance. That's the kind of social safety net that 357 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: more of us need, just not for health insurance alone. 358 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: Let's talk about retirement packages. Let's talk about you know, 359 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: workers rights, and there is some action being taken with 360 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: the Freelancers Union, although I'm not terribly familiar with those folks. 361 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: But here at BOSTUP, we enable women to be better 362 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: advocates for themselves in a world and in an economy 363 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: in which we no longer have the same advocates that 364 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: our grandparents had fighting for them. So how how can 365 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: women be better advocates for themselves and get unstuck from 366 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 1: those jobs that in which they might feel like I 367 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: do have to work myself to death. That's such a 368 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: great point, Caroline, because I'm actually thinking of young women 369 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: in particular. I was doing a little bit of research 370 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: and sort of going over um the case for burnout 371 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: prevention recently and was reminded of that case not too 372 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: long ago in which a twenty one year old Wall 373 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: Street intern actually died after working three consecutive days and 374 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: nights in a row UM due to epiplectic seizure complications 375 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: that some have tied to exhaustion. I would certainly tie 376 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: to exhaustion. Although there's been a huge case against or 377 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: there's been huge interests um pointed at countering that, you 378 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 1: know connection, but it finally caused us to wake up 379 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: a little bit and maybe acknowledge that internships, especially those 380 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: that are unpaid, uh, you know, should be outlawed from 381 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: working people to the bone. And in this case, working 382 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: yourself to death was very literal. And so I think 383 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: the step one is we have to stop perpetuating the 384 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: martyrdom mindset, the whole semester sprint mentality of I'm just 385 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: gonna work my tail off now because after finals, I 386 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: can take a break. We have to make sure that 387 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: our young people who graduate from college recognize that the 388 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: same skills that get you an A in college, like 389 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: perfecting and performing for others and pleasing others, those skills 390 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: which we women have mastered, by the way, are not 391 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: the same skills that get you ahead in the real 392 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily. And so first giving ourselves permission to ask ourselves, 393 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: what do we want? What is our vision for our lives? 394 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: Creating a safe identity workspace is the language that the 395 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review used in a cover article from their 396 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: Timber magazine that started to unpack what's holding women leaders 397 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: back some of the invisible barriers, as they called them, 398 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: that perpetuates uh sexism frankly sexism two point now, which 399 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: they call second generation gender bias in the workplace. And 400 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: so the first is to create an environment in which 401 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: you can come in and redefine yourself, define your identity, 402 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: really work to create an identity that reinforces what you 403 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: want and gives yourself ownership over your own life. Now 404 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: that it sounds a little fluffy, like I hear it right, 405 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: and it sounds like a lofty goal, Yeah, I would 406 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: love to be able to figure that out. It's vallenging 407 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: thing to do, but it's something that we've created in 408 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: our programs and really all it requires. First of all, 409 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: definitely read that great article. Um it's the best article 410 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: I've ever read on describing the current status of sexism 411 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: in the workplace. But too, it really requires a place 412 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: where you can get clear on your audacious goals. Author 413 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: Jim Collins says that we all need big, hairy, audacious goals, 414 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: and he's talking about corporate goals, but I address that 415 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: just as uh equally important for individuals. We need crazy, big, 416 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: audacious dreams, visions for our lives that can propel us forward. 417 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: And then we need a space where we can have 418 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: women or people, really anyone who supports you to reinforce 419 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: your sense of your to reinforce your ability to actually 420 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: make that vision of reality. And so first it comes 421 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: down to giving yourself permission a dream really big. And 422 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: the second part of the equation is is learning to 423 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: be better advocates for actually making that stuff happen, because 424 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: if we don't advocate for what we want, inertia will 425 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: fill that void and other people will tell us what 426 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: we deserve. Quite frankly. And so the biggest concrete skill 427 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: that I think so critically important for women to develop 428 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: is assertive communication. And there's been a lot written on 429 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: a sort of communication, and that's a big part of 430 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: almost every training and workshop and online program that we 431 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: deliver at bost Up. But basically it starts by understanding 432 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: the difference between assertive, what it means to be assertive 433 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: and aggressive, since very often those two words are confused 434 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: and used interchangeably in our in our society. And so 435 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: the first thing I always say, and this is so important, 436 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: it's in our manifesto. It's in the boss Up Manifesto 437 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: that we came up with that basically describes what it 438 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: means to be a boss in my universe and what 439 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: it means to be the boss of your own life. 440 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: And really, assertive means that your forthright about what you 441 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: want and your needs and your rights while considering the 442 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: rights and needs and wants of others around you. Being 443 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: aggressive is similar but different. Being aggressive means you are 444 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: forthright about your wants and needs and desires, but without 445 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: regard for the rights and wants and needs of others period. 446 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: So it sounds like the big difference there's empathy, yeah, 447 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: which unfortunately is subjective in almost every example, especially in 448 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: the workplace. But I'll give you I'll give you an 449 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: example of how this is such a critical difference. One 450 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: of my advisory board members here at BOSSTOP is Dr 451 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: Lucy Gilson, who is the head of the NBA program 452 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: at Yukon and works with the Women's NBA program and 453 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: helps spearhead the Geno r M, a women's leadership conference 454 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: every year. And she got a call from an academic 455 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: higher up in her sort of world who was calling 456 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: about a colleague of her as a woman professor who 457 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: was up for a promotion, and this higher up of 458 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: hers wanted to get Lucy's opinion on this colleague and 459 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: she said, you know her key. The director asked Lucy 460 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: what she thought about her colleague by saying, we've heard 461 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: great things from her students. She publishes all the right papers, 462 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: she's peer reviewed. You know, we think she's a really 463 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: hard worker. But we've heard from some of her colleagues 464 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: she can be a little aggressive and ding ding dingg 465 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: there's the magic word. Right. So, Lucy, who has actually 466 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: trained and delivered some of our Boste boot Camp training 467 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: on this very subject. Busted out one of the slides 468 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 1: from Boston boot Camp and said, well, hold on a second, now, 469 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: let's talk about what you mean here. Do you mean aggressive? 470 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: And she read in the definition? Or do you mean assertive? 471 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: And she read them the definition there again, and he 472 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,239 Speaker 1: said on the other line of fun. She said that 473 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: the line went silent, and she was really kind of 474 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: worried that she had miss stepped or said something wrong. 475 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: He said, wait, when can you say that one more time? 476 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: I'm writing that down because are too often we just 477 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: don't hear about that difference, and we don't give credit 478 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: to women who are being assertive as opposed to aggressive 479 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: because and I'm sure you too know this. I'm sure 480 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: a lot of your listeners have felt this in practice. 481 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: When women are assertive, we are less likable by men 482 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: and women alike. We are perceived as cold, we are 483 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: perceived as far nastier things that start with the letter 484 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: B and it's not boss, right, And so you know, 485 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,959 Speaker 1: over the past thirty years, social scientists have picked up 486 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: on that inverse correlation for women. When women are assertive, 487 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: the certainness goes up. We see the likability factor go down. 488 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: When men are assertive that is in line with what 489 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: we've been socially conditioned to expect from men as aggressive 490 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: leaders or as assertive leaders, and so their likability remains 491 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: are unharmed when men are assertive. And so it's it's 492 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: a really tough tight rope that we're all tap dancing 493 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: on as women who want to be leaders, because assertiveness 494 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: is essential to getting stuff done. It's essential to leadership, 495 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: and it's essential to what I call self leadership. It's 496 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: essential to being the boss of your own life, to 497 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: drawing healthy boundaries, to demanding what you're worth, to asking 498 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: for what you need to be successful. So what if, 499 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: what do we as women especially do with that likability piece? 500 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: Do we just throw it out the window and march 501 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: ahead or what I mean? That is the million dollar 502 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: question right there, Kristen. And it's it's the problem that 503 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: fuels me personally, and it's it's the reality that drives 504 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: us all crazy. Rightfully. So, and here's the thing. I 505 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: actually turn to this brilliant video from Nicki Minaj who 506 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: describes what it feels like in in reality to be 507 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: you know, compared to Lil Wayne, you know, her male 508 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: basically mentor in the hip hop world who can come 509 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: in and demand whatever he requires, demand what he needs 510 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: and say, you know, of course you need to deliver 511 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: from me because anything less is unacceptable. And when Nicky 512 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: comes in and does the same thing or has you know, 513 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: exhibits the same kind of a sort of behavior, she's 514 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: called a diva or a bitch. Right, She's not everything 515 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: to everyone. And so while we're not all pop stars 516 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: and we don't have the same problems as Nicki minaj 517 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: Uh speak for yourself. I don't know, fair fair boy, 518 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to speaks. Life is pretty glamorous, Okay, 519 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: I can imagine they better treat you right over there. Um. 520 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: But while it's not always the same, we all experience 521 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: that double bind. And so two things. One the more 522 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: we talk about this and how in innate but also 523 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: um unintentional this kind of second generation gender bias is 524 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: we raise awareness and we change awareness when we talk 525 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: about these issues. And so one of the key components 526 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: to second generation gender bias, which is which delivers double 527 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: binds like this, is that no one is essentially being 528 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: malicious here. There's no malintent required for these perceptions to persist. 529 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: So hey, we gotta call him out, because the more 530 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: we raise awareness on them, the more we can all 531 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: check ourselves, men and women and just ask ourselves, are 532 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: we really upset with her because she's being you know, mean? 533 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: Or is she being assertive? Can we start to pass 534 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: through perception a little bit more? And the second is, yeah, 535 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: go ahead and be assert of anyway, because leadership requires 536 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: risk taking. And I this isn't a popular opinion of mine, 537 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: but you are not there to make everybody like you, 538 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: right like, you have to put your leadership purpose over 539 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: perception sometimes, and no one does that better than Hillary Clinton. 540 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: You know, she goes up to make a speech about 541 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: how you know, she's in the secretary of stage, is 542 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: traveled to more countries than anyone any when inhald that 543 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: office in the past has done before. And the headlines 544 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: are about the scrunchy that she's wearing, right Like, sometimes 545 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: there's not more that you can do to control how 546 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: others will perceive you. And while I'm not saying that 547 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: to make anyone feel like a victim or anyone to 548 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: feel helpless in the matter, um, you know, putting your 549 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: purpose over others perception of you can be a really 550 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: liberating thing. And you know, I'm not one to say 551 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: not to be strategic about it, but also so to 552 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: cut yourself some slack, because we don't all get it 553 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: right all the time. In fact, I would say no 554 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: one does. I love your ideas about approaching both your 555 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 1: personal and professional life like a boss and really dedicating 556 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: some carved out time to taking care of yourself and 557 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: also taking care of work. And I'm interested to know 558 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: how you feel like that approach can perhaps change our 559 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: outdated ideals of what a good office worker is. I 560 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: love that question because the reality is that I learned 561 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: this vernacular by reading the book Overwhelmed by Bridget Sulty, 562 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: which came out not too long ago, and it's a 563 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: really good um rundown in a very well researched way 564 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: to describe how we got to where we are today. 565 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: And this overwhelmed UH workplace and and current status of 566 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: America in general. And what she says is that the 567 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: modern American workplace is designed around what we know as 568 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: the quote ideal worker. And this ideal worker is a myth. 569 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: This ideal worker is from nifty and it's a man, 570 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: and he goes to work all day and can totally 571 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: focus on what's happening in front of him, because there's 572 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: no digital life to worry about, and he has someone 573 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: at home a k a. His wife who's holding down 574 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: the home front. And so this worker, who's the ideal 575 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: worker for whom our workplaces are still too often designed, um, 576 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: you know, doesn't have to worry about dry cleaning or 577 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: daycare or dinner or you know, taking a nap. You 578 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: know they're well arrested. We assume so many things about 579 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: our workers that are there's no longer based in reality. 580 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: So I'm encouraged by the changing um conversation. Here. We 581 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: have organizations like the Family Story Project that's headed up 582 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: by one of my other board members, Nicole Jersey, who's 583 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: really taking a policy approach to say, hold up, let's 584 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: talk about what an American family unit looks like today. 585 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the growing female breadwinner population. Let's talk 586 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: about uh, stay at home dad some more. We saw 587 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: the NFL commercials the dad do I thought was absolutelyly brilliant. Right, 588 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: We're seeing different kinds of family arrangements being reflected finally 589 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: international conversation, and just barely are we seeing companies begin 590 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: to adapt. So Google has dry cleaning services and a 591 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: cafeteria for its workers so that they can actually worry 592 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: about the work that they're there to do. Right, we 593 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: know that the Huffington Post has nap rooms so that 594 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: people can sign up for a rejuvenating half hour nap 595 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: without shame, right sanctioned by everyone there. Because creating new 596 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: norms in our workplaces is the challenge of leadership today, 597 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: and it's financially your best interest because of things like 598 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 1: retention and leadership development. And so I think it starts 599 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: with advocating for what we individually need to be successful. 600 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: And I think that starts with our you know, psychological 601 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: research on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, Like, what do 602 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: we actually need to be fully functioning when we go 603 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: into the office. We need security, we need a roof 604 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: over our heads, we need rest, we need food. Right, 605 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: These are basic needs that I think we've taken for granted. 606 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: I know I did. When I first entered the workplace, 607 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: I felt like there was never an end to the 608 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: work day. I was constantly on and I found myself 609 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: going from being a college athlete to not having any 610 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: form of regular exercise in my life for about three 611 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: years there, and I was working right through my lunch 612 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: break every day, and I was chronically underslept. And I 613 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: think that is a normal, almost prideful, in a really 614 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: demended way, stereotype for the career person, whether it's a 615 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: career woman or man. And so when we individually admit 616 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: to ourselves that that is not the best way to 617 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: be our best selves, that starts a conversation in which 618 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: we can actually assert ourselves and demand what we need 619 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: to be successful. And then I think, you know this, 620 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: call me haive, because one, one person alone can't do this. 621 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: But I think that if enough of us get together 622 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: and say these are the companies we are willing to 623 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: work for, they are willing to invest in their workers 624 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: in a way that invests in their sustainable success, not 625 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: our short term efforts, then I think the market has 626 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: to change. Whether that requires, you know, public policy and 627 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: intervention from a regulatory standpoint or not is to be determined. Yeah, 628 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: I agree, And I'm also happy to see more companies 629 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: not only paying attention to working parents, but also working 630 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: single people, because we are doing a lot on on 631 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: our own as well. Um. But I also wanted to 632 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: ask you because I know that you have looked into 633 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: this how the picture changes for women of color because 634 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: you know, we have layers of discrimination, you know that 635 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: um that they're walking into the office facing that white 636 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: ladies like us might not experience so much. Absolutely, and 637 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: this is such an important question because to me, feminism 638 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,760 Speaker 1: can exist without intersectional feminism, right if we're not talking 639 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 1: about women's rights with a framework that acknowledges that not 640 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: all women, not every woman's experience is the same. But 641 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: then we're just kidding ourselves and we're being naive. And 642 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: here at bossed Up, where I am candid about in 643 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: every one of our trainings, which frankly, I think it's 644 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: also important to note that we have women of color 645 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: doing this work right, not just hear a bossed up, 646 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: but we work in concert with other organizations that or 647 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: tackling this um with racial diversity at top of mind. 648 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: But the first thing to acknowledge is that that inverse 649 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: correlation between assertiveness and likability is even worse for women 650 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: of color. They have to contend with the black angry 651 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: woman trope. Right, Women of color have a lot more 652 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 1: uh perception challenges to to tap dans on a tight 653 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: rope with, and it's it's important to acknowledge the differences 654 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: and in experience first, and then the second part of 655 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: this equation is acknowledging that the gender wage gap and 656 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: the gender leadership gap both are are more dramatic for 657 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: women of color. And so, first and foremost, the challenges 658 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,280 Speaker 1: that are faced by women are different across the spectrum, 659 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: and so intersectional feminism is all about looking at gender 660 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: diversity with a lens of how that intersects with racial 661 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: discrimination and discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation 662 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: and ability and lots of other shades to the discriminatory 663 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: pellette that we have to choose from in the United 664 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: States and in the world. Frankly, the second thing to 665 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: acknowledge is that what I see contributing to women's burnout 666 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: most dramatically, what is called role overload. Roll overload is 667 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: when we feel poled in competing directions in which we 668 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: are facing multiple demands for our limited time and energy 669 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,720 Speaker 1: and resources. And we have to acknowledge that different families 670 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: look differently, right, Different people have others to care for, 671 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: have a variety of demands that are placed on our 672 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: time and energy, and that's not the same for all 673 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,359 Speaker 1: of us. That's certainly not the same for the Lena 674 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 1: Dunham characters that we see in Girls as opposed to 675 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: the come up stories that we hear from in the 676 00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: hip hop world. Right demands placed on us financially, emotionally, um, 677 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, based on time and relationships look very different 678 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: across the spectrum of what different women's lives look like. 679 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: And I think it's an important thing to acknowledge and 680 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: be sensitive to, but also just check my own privilege 681 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: on when we're actually talking about burnout, Well, we actually, 682 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: Kristen and I hear from a lot of women who 683 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: are in the service industry, for instance, who felt a 684 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: little left out when we did our conversations on the 685 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: concepts and lean in a couple of years ago. And 686 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: so I was wondering if you have any advice for 687 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: some of those women who feel alienated from this typical 688 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: discussion of the office and of burnout that's specific to uh, 689 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: the modern office workplace when they're working paycheck to paycheck. 690 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: Maybe they're single moms, or maybe they are caring for 691 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: elderly parents. What would you say to some of these women. 692 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: I think that's such a great point, and I want 693 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: to talk more about lean in a second. But first, so, 694 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 1: my mother is a labor and delivery nurse at a 695 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: hospital in Hartford, Connecticut. She works twelve hour shifts on 696 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,479 Speaker 1: her feet and has done so for the past years 697 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: who knows what. And you know, I'm here telling her 698 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: how to negotiate and how to you know, be a 699 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: third of about her time. And the reality is, in 700 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: her industry, she gets the schedule ones every two weeks 701 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: and there's no union representing her, although I've tried to 702 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: ask her to organize one, and you know, her ability 703 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,760 Speaker 1: to negotiate in her mind is nil, completely none, no ability. 704 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: Now granted, she had four kids, right, one of whom 705 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 1: is still in the nest. Right, my baby sister is 706 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: still a senior in high school, and so for her, 707 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: the risk factors for facing not getting that paycheck is 708 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: astronomical still. And so you know, being your own boss 709 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: or being brazen about what you want is not as 710 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: simple as we spell it out in as this this 711 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: conversation alludes to. And it's not as simple as leaning 712 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: in and working harder and asking for more um Building 713 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: power is something that I I studied and worked a 714 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: lot on as a community organizer with communities that alone 715 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: individually have no power. I truly and fundamentally believe that collectively, 716 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: we can all create power by aligning ourselves and our 717 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: mutual interests with people who have diverse resources to contribute 718 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: to leverage in to leverage our power together for what 719 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: we need to be successful. And so I'm getting on 720 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: my soapbox here and sounding like quite the labor organizer, 721 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: but really what I'm saying is that no matter where 722 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: you're starting from, you have power over where you put 723 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: your money, where you decide to what businesses you decide to, 724 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, serve with your financial power. You have power 725 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: over where you show up, how you use your voice, 726 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: what you dare to say or not say. And while 727 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: no one can tell you that being assertive is the 728 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 1: only and right way to be, it is a tool 729 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: that I want all women to have in their toolbox. 730 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: I want all women to feel empowered, to feel capable 731 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 1: for choosing mindfully when they want to be assertive, and 732 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: not to feel like we are totally um without ownership 733 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: of our own lives, because that's a really scary place 734 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: to be, and I've been there. Um. Because when you 735 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: ask for what you need, some people might say now 736 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,720 Speaker 1: and and I guarantee you, if you ask enough people 737 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,800 Speaker 1: for the right kind of help for what you actually need, 738 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 1: the world changes. The world delivers in a kind of 739 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: amazing way. When I was leaving my ex boyfriend, I 740 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: had no money. I was totally financially screwed in that relationship. 741 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: We were living above my me and it was completely 742 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: impossible for me to sub let out one of the 743 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 1: two bedrooms in our apartment because of the nature of 744 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,720 Speaker 1: the dramatic and really ugly way that that we split, 745 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: and that police were involved. You know, this was a scary, 746 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 1: scary time in my life. I had no money, My 747 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: parents frankly have no money. And while I'm privileged to 748 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 1: have a great education and at the time had a 749 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 1: good job, I found myself basically homeless. And when I 750 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 1: have the courage to be vulnerable with the people I 751 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: trusted who loved me, they gave me a roof over 752 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: my own head. Right, I could crash with a friend, 753 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: And I basically crashed with friends for six months, living 754 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: out my lease and then uprooting my life with a 755 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,360 Speaker 1: whole bunch of credit card debt to come to d 756 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: C to make something else of my life, and a 757 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: year and a half two years later, I started Busted 758 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: Up to help others do the same, and over that 759 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: year and a half to two years, I found myself happier, healthy, 760 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: and wealthier than ever because I had the courage to 761 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: assert myself and decide no, I am not going to 762 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: let my life continue on with me in the passenger seat. 763 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,320 Speaker 1: So Emily, Uh, I'm feeling first of all very empowered 764 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,919 Speaker 1: right now to leave the studio and go to take 765 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: over the world. So thank you for that, um. But 766 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: also before we leave, I just wanted to know if 767 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: you had any parting thoughts for our listeners and of 768 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: course where they can go to find out more about 769 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: you and bosst Up. Absolutely well, thank you again for 770 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: having me uh, Christian and Caroline, It's been such a pleasure, 771 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: and I'm so jazzed about the fact that we are 772 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: going to be talking together again in real life. I 773 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 1: r l at south By Southwest, so I'm so to 774 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: have been invited by you two to present together and 775 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: I can't wait for that awesome conversation. But also for 776 00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,399 Speaker 1: folks who want to learn more about boss Up, get 777 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 1: some free resources, join our community of courage, and start 778 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 1: taking charge of your life right now you can head 779 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,880 Speaker 1: over to Boston dot com and you can learn more 780 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: about me at Emily Aris dot com as well. All right, well, Emily, 781 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,760 Speaker 1: thank you again so much and look forward to seeing 782 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: you in Austin. So thanks so much to Emily for 783 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: talking to Caroline and me, because Caroline, I feel like 784 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,720 Speaker 1: so much of what Emily had to say resonates with 785 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 1: the research that you and I have found in terms 786 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: of gendered patterns of how we work and in terms 787 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: of that burnout conversation, women being even just less likelier 788 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: to take breaks. Yeah, there was this Captivate Network study 789 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: that found that men in the workplace are more likely 790 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 1: than ladies to take personal break and that includes being 791 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: more likely to go take a walk, more likely to 792 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: stop and eat lunch, more likely to just take a 793 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,840 Speaker 1: break and let your brain drip out your ears. Yeah. 794 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: So I'm a contributing writer for Refinery twenty nine dot com, Caroline, 795 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,760 Speaker 1: and they had an internal campaign recently that has stuck 796 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 1: in my brain because it was encouraging all the employees, 797 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: which it's a mostly female company, but encouraging all the 798 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,839 Speaker 1: employees to take their lunch breaks because of this kind 799 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 1: of research where it's so important for us to take 800 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: those breaks, but we tend not to do that. Well. Yeah, 801 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,239 Speaker 1: because speaking of our finery twenty nine, thank you for 802 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: setting me up. I'm just gonna like hit that off 803 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,800 Speaker 1: on the on the your welcome. Yeah, okay, just lobbed 804 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: that softball over to you. Thank you. I don't even 805 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: know if did you. I don't even know if you 806 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: knew you did it. I didn't know. Cool. Well, but 807 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: speaking of o finary twenty nine, they did have an 808 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,800 Speaker 1: article talking about this whole culture and constant state of 809 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,720 Speaker 1: business susan advice colm kind of thing, and the writer 810 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: is telling the woman who had written in that this 811 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,320 Speaker 1: serves as being this business serves as a declaration of 812 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,480 Speaker 1: worth for a lot of people. And she says, you know, 813 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: it's no wonder that we're sort of in the midst 814 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: of this cultural kind of across the board need to 815 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 1: work all the time, because she talks about how, yes, 816 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: the economy sluggish, the job markets tough, and everyone who's 817 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 1: managed to stay steadily employed feels lucky. So you feel 818 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 1: like you've got to bust your but you feel like 819 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: you need to work all the time, be available seven 820 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: and sort of allow those boundaries between your public and 821 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: private day and night lives to blur. But she says, 822 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: the advisors says that this is really just helping perpetuate 823 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,839 Speaker 1: the problem. You are helping contribute to this new unattractive 824 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: standard of dizziness. And she says, so what to do? 825 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: Keep resisting? And I feel like, yes, absolutely we should resist. 826 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,799 Speaker 1: We should establish boundaries, and we should not encourage our 827 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 1: coworkers to work until x o'clock in the morning and 828 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: perhaps take more advantage of say email delayed receipt features 829 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,720 Speaker 1: in your outlook. Yes, yes, and and I mean granted, 830 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, we do have to give mone that different 831 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: people like to work different schedules. However, when you do 832 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: find yourself falling into this like oh, I worked sixteen 833 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,839 Speaker 1: hours yesterday, thing, it is time to do a couple 834 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: of things. One, establish boundaries for yourself, do try to 835 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:38,319 Speaker 1: take breaks um, but also to ask yourself how much 836 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,640 Speaker 1: of that work you did in the sixteen hour period 837 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,240 Speaker 1: is actually quality work? And that can help you maybe 838 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 1: prioritize your time a little better. Yeah. I'm a firm 839 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 1: believer that a project will take you as long as 840 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: you give it. And one thing that I've started doing 841 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 1: fairly recently, Caroline, is I time myself. I usually give 842 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,080 Speaker 1: myself like fifteen to twenty minute increments of time and 843 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,760 Speaker 1: I just set the timer on my phone. There's probably 844 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: a handy app for all of this, and I'm just 845 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,279 Speaker 1: saying it like the longhand what I bet it's like 846 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: six dollars, it's probably, I mean, who knows, I mean 847 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,359 Speaker 1: six dollars. That's that's a lot of money for now. 848 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,560 Speaker 1: That's a good sandwich right there. Um. But it helps 849 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,239 Speaker 1: focus me and pay closer attention to how much time 850 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,719 Speaker 1: I'm taking to do different kinds of things. And it 851 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: has raised my attention on things that I have been 852 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: sort of frivolous over or just like taken unnecessary time with, 853 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 1: um and all. This is important because of that issue 854 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: of burnout. Yeah, and this is something that Emily and 855 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: her group bossed up really focus on because she really 856 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,719 Speaker 1: had to battle her own burnout and it can lead 857 00:52:53,760 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: to things like cynicism, depression, lethargy, and it happen a 858 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: lot of the time when you just sort of feel 859 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,200 Speaker 1: out of control. And I know that I've experienced that 860 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: when I worked at that newspaper years ago. Now, I 861 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: mean I didn't care. I didn't want to get promoted. 862 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: I didn't want to take the next step up the ladder. 863 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,280 Speaker 1: And that is a huge warning sign. If you aren't 864 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: even interested in what you're doing the company you work for, 865 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 1: and you're not interested in pursuing bigger, better opportunities with 866 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: that job, whatever it is, that's a giant warning sign 867 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,480 Speaker 1: that perhaps A maybe your job is just wrong for you, 868 00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: but b maybe you're burned out. Yeah, I mean, because 869 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is most of us don't 870 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: like our jobs, at least at some point. Deloitte put 871 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,239 Speaker 1: out a survey not too long ago which found eighty 872 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,920 Speaker 1: percent of employees report job dissatisfaction. I mean I didn 873 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:57,160 Speaker 1: go figure. Yeah. And and of course this culture of 874 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:02,880 Speaker 1: dizziness and the fact that you can technically be reached 875 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 1: any time and can be doing your job and interacting 876 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: and building your personal brand and networking all the time 877 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,759 Speaker 1: if you want to. Twitter exists, LinkedIn exists. When when 878 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: should we ever stop working? I just like a sweaty 879 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,239 Speaker 1: palms thinking about that. But shoots and ladders, I know, 880 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: But um. One of my personal faiths brn A. Brown, 881 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 1: who writes a lot for OH Magazine, which is one 882 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 1: of my favorite publications in the world. UH talks about 883 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,080 Speaker 1: how for women, there's this myth that we're supposed to 884 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,240 Speaker 1: do it all and do it perfectly. And she says 885 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,040 Speaker 1: that saying no, whether it's to work or to friends 886 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,720 Speaker 1: or whatever, saying no queues a chorus of inner shame. 887 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 1: Gremlin's there's an image for you. UH thoughts like, who 888 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: do you think you are? You're not a very caring mother, 889 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: friend or colleague. But but she goes on to say 890 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,279 Speaker 1: that daring to set those boundaries is about having the 891 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: courage to love ourselves even when we risk disappointing others, 892 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: and so that then ties in. I would think too, 893 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,800 Speaker 1: this issue of self care we always hear about, because 894 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: not only setting boundaries and learning how to say no 895 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 1: and learning how to tell yourself it's okay to say 896 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: no and that you will still be liked or respected, 897 00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,280 Speaker 1: but then taking it a step further and saying, Okay, 898 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,719 Speaker 1: now that I've set this boundary, now that I'm not 899 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: going to work a sixteen hour day, I'm going to 900 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: try to work smarter. What am I going to do 901 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,080 Speaker 1: to make sure I don't lose my mind? Yeah? I 902 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,520 Speaker 1: think it's really fascinating how the conversations around self care 903 00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: and the media covers around self care really accelerated in 904 00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 1: the past here. So and to me, it's just putting 905 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:48,040 Speaker 1: validating language around this idea of yeah, taking a little 906 00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,279 Speaker 1: bit of time off and reframing it away from the 907 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,160 Speaker 1: idea that doing so is selfish or lazy. Right. I 908 00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 1: know my boyfriend and I have conversations all the time. 909 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: He's in a creative feel. Uh. He works all the time, 910 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,680 Speaker 1: and again he's totally living under that whole thing of 911 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,319 Speaker 1: your work is going to take up how much time 912 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,759 Speaker 1: you give it um, And we talk all the time 913 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,600 Speaker 1: about how like almost spiritually stunting it is to not 914 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 1: remember or give yourself time to do rewarding things for yourself. So, 915 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 1: for instance, like he's really slammed with his work right now, 916 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:28,680 Speaker 1: but he made sure last night to take time to 917 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,640 Speaker 1: play music with a friend and try to write music 918 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,120 Speaker 1: and like just see a friend and be creative. He 919 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,080 Speaker 1: for my birthday this past year gave me a bunch 920 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: of art supplies. I haven't used them. They're sitting in 921 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:44,359 Speaker 1: the corner of my room and I look at them 922 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,759 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I would, I would just love to 923 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,680 Speaker 1: doodle or paint or something. But I don't give myself 924 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,560 Speaker 1: the time. I am my worst boss. Well and and Caroline, 925 00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,640 Speaker 1: you know what, my my self care last night was 926 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: taking the time, even though I also was slammed with 927 00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,640 Speaker 1: just all sorts of things. I'm busy. Have I mentioned that? 928 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 1: Have I telled you I'm really busy? Um? But I 929 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,080 Speaker 1: took the time to drink a beer and watch an 930 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 1: episode of Unreal because yeah, I'm addicted. Nice, No, I conguer, 931 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: I did the same thing. I well, I had a 932 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,840 Speaker 1: glass of champagne. I missed beer. You're a little classier, 933 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,120 Speaker 1: I know. I assure you it was cooks. I assure 934 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,680 Speaker 1: you was probably cheaper than whatever beer you were drinking. Um. 935 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 1: So I took time to have a glass of champagne 936 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,240 Speaker 1: and illegally download an episode of Down Abbey that had 937 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,960 Speaker 1: already moved off of PBS because I was not fast 938 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,600 Speaker 1: enough because I also am busy and apparently too busy 939 00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,000 Speaker 1: to watch down Abbey. And uh, it was so nice. 940 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,480 Speaker 1: It was so nice to take that little bit of time. 941 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:50,919 Speaker 1: And I'm not advocating that everybody get wasted and watch 942 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,760 Speaker 1: a period piece on PBS to like, you know, make 943 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,640 Speaker 1: yourself feel better. But that's something you see a lot 944 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 1: in literature around self care, that it's different for everyone. 945 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,280 Speaker 1: And apparently Kristen and I are slowly morphing into the 946 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 1: same person and that's okay. But for you, maybe it's 947 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: going rock climbing and doing something active and outside, or 948 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 1: maybe it really is just taking a nap, turning off 949 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,120 Speaker 1: your cell phone. There's a whole range of things that 950 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:19,640 Speaker 1: can help you man or woman learn to reset and 951 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,520 Speaker 1: feel better so that you can go back to work 952 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 1: and do better work. Well. Thanks again so much to 953 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 1: Emily Aries for coming on the show and sharing all 954 00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,160 Speaker 1: of her boss stuff wisdom with us. And now we 955 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. We want to know if 956 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:39,640 Speaker 1: any of those issues resonated with your work situation as well. 957 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,880 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 958 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,800 Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 959 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,160 Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 960 00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you when we come right 961 00:58:52,000 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 1: back from a quick break. So I have a letter 962 00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 1: here from Joe in response to our episode on infertility, 963 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: and I just want to say quickly to preface this 964 00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,560 Speaker 1: that we have heard from a lot of both men 965 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,160 Speaker 1: and women on this very sensitive topic, something that can 966 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: be really hard for a lot of couples out there. 967 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you to everybody 968 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,560 Speaker 1: who's written in about fertility issues that they have undergone. 969 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,880 Speaker 1: So this is from Joe, and Joe says in two thousand, 970 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,600 Speaker 1: we have been trying to get pregnant for a year 971 00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 1: with no luck. I was thirty six and my wife forty. 972 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 1: We were living outside the perimeter, a little north of Atlanta. 973 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: What luck as it's the infertility center of the Southeast 974 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,280 Speaker 1: are O b G. I n ran all the tests 975 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,280 Speaker 1: on my wife and surprised she's just fine. I mean 976 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 1: the media does portray this as always related to female biology. 977 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: So living near an infertility center and the issue probably 978 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: due to my biology, the way should be smooth and 979 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: within sight. Right. No, there are many specialists for women's 980 00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,360 Speaker 1: reproductive problems, but for men, go find a urologist, a generalist. 981 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,960 Speaker 1: All of them list fertility as part of their practice, 982 01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,680 Speaker 1: but few do more than dabble. They would run the 983 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,200 Speaker 1: same battery of tests, look at me and say, I 984 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,880 Speaker 1: don't know, you need someone more scaled than me, And no, 985 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,480 Speaker 1: I can't recommend anyone. It took no less than twelve 986 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:21,000 Speaker 1: urologists visits to identify someone who truly specialized in practices. 987 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,200 Speaker 1: None of the previous eleven were honest that they dabbled 988 01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:28,160 Speaker 1: until they got a visit fee. Next was testing. Several 989 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,000 Speaker 1: labs turned me away because none of the technicians wanted 990 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,480 Speaker 1: to handle the fluids involved even in a lab setting. 991 01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,840 Speaker 1: One told me it was disgusting. Many treated me like 992 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,800 Speaker 1: I was a weirdo playing some game. Two told me 993 01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:41,800 Speaker 1: that they couldn't help me because the sample needed to 994 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,240 Speaker 1: be analyzed within fifteen minutes of collecting, and there was 995 01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,240 Speaker 1: nowhere on the premises for collection. A hospital with no 996 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,880 Speaker 1: bathrooms question mark. Finally, I raised the stink, getting the 997 01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,200 Speaker 1: attention of the manager in one hospital and they were 998 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,360 Speaker 1: appalled at my treatment. Tests were run, root causes found, 999 01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,400 Speaker 1: and a baby girl arrived in late two thousand three. Yeah, 1000 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,000 Speaker 1: note that this took three years to resolve. It was 1001 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: the most frustrating, humiliating, and ostracizing experience of my life, 1002 01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,120 Speaker 1: closely followed by a breast cancer scan as a male, 1003 01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 1: Another story for another time. Well of the time, the 1004 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 1: way for women is against the current. This is one 1005 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,960 Speaker 1: where it's against everyone. The stigma of having a doctor 1006 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,000 Speaker 1: subtly grin when you reveal that you're infertile, or the 1007 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,840 Speaker 1: callous treatment by the labs needed for a diagnosis was 1008 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,880 Speaker 1: horrendous and marginalizing. I feel for anyone of any biology 1009 01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 1: going through this, so thank you so much for sharing 1010 01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,560 Speaker 1: your story, Joe, and congrats on that baby girl. Back 1011 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand three, Well, I've got a letter here 1012 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:47,160 Speaker 1: from Jessica about icing your volva, which is one of 1013 01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: our new catchphrases. She writes, I just listened to Very 1014 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,920 Speaker 1: Close Veins, which was about Mr Cole's veins, and just 1015 01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,240 Speaker 1: had to tell you that icing your vulva is actually 1016 01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,680 Speaker 1: a thing. I don't know about it in relationship to 1017 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,600 Speaker 1: vericos veins, but among pregnant women and new moms it's 1018 01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,680 Speaker 1: often discussed as a relieving treatment for immediately after a 1019 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,240 Speaker 1: vaginal delivery. The trick is to take a Maxi pad, 1020 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,880 Speaker 1: soak it in witch hazel, and stick it in the 1021 01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,120 Speaker 1: freezer for a few hours before wearing it. I didn't 1022 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,080 Speaker 1: end up doing this myself, as my delivery wound up 1023 01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,000 Speaker 1: being a C section, but I heard lots of moms 1024 01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:27,560 Speaker 1: raving about the awesome relief it provides, particularly if they 1025 01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:32,640 Speaker 1: suffered from tears during delivery. So Jessica, thank you for 1026 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: that insight. I had no idea, and I mean I 1027 01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,600 Speaker 1: just wonder if it works for you know, if you 1028 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,120 Speaker 1: just like had a long day, you know need, I 1029 01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:48,360 Speaker 1: want a refreshing relief glass of Pino grigio, little ifce 1030 01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,440 Speaker 1: pack on the volva. There you go. Maybe maybe something 1031 01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:55,520 Speaker 1: from the Oprah Winfrey Network on television or Gilmore Girls 1032 01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:02,640 Speaker 1: Bene just whatever really helps you relax. Well, listeners, we 1033 01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,720 Speaker 1: want to hear what you have to say. Mom. Stuff 1034 01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,440 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address 1035 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,000 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 1036 01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,720 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with 1037 01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,600 Speaker 1: our sources. So you can learn more about Emily Airs 1038 01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,600 Speaker 1: and bossed Up. Head on over to stuff Mom Never 1039 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:27,880 Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands 1040 01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,240 Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com