1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you? 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: From housetop Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: to Hannah Blank, who is an activist, historian and author 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: UM who I first ran across um with her book 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: Virgin The Untouched History. But we're not talking about Virgin today, 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: although she does bring it up a little bit at 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: the beginning of our discussion. The reason why we got 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: in touch with Hannah Blank is because she recently published 11 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: a new book called Straight, The Surprisingly Brief History of Heterosexuality, 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: And when we talked to her a little while ago, 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: she we got through all the questions and she said, man, 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: you know what, I I am so glad that you 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: did not ask me the question that so many other 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: interviewers have been asking me about the book, which is, well, 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: how how do you talk about a history of heterosexuality 18 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: since hasn't this just always been? And the answer is no, 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: that is not in fact the case, because the term 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: heterosexuality as Hannah Hannah, not Hannah Hannah. We'll talk about 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: in more detail, has only been around since eighteen exactly, 22 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: and it she talks a little bit about the evolution 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: of the term, how it started out. It was really invented. 24 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean it was really invented. Homosexuality and heterosexuality, those 25 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: terms were coined in order to talk about these things 26 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: from a legal standpoint. Yeah, it wasn't even it didn't 27 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: even start out as a scientific or a medical term, 28 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: but actually a legal one. Um, So us to kick 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: things off, we don't we don't want to talk too 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: much about what Hannah had to say about straight because 31 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: she was such a fantastic interview and she has so 32 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: much great information to share with us, I think that 33 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: we should go ahead and just jump right into things. Indeed, indeed, 34 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: so to kick things off, and we just wanted to 35 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: ask her what inspired her to study and write this 36 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: history of heterosexuality. And it turns out that there were 37 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: academic reasons behind it, which makes sense because she is 38 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: a historian, but she also has a compelling personal story 39 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: behind this as well that she weaves into the book. So, 40 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: so let's hear from Hannah Blank. Well, there were two 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: things really that got me going on this project. One 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: was that when I was working on my book on 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: the history of virginity, I kept coming up against the 44 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: fact that the only kind of virginity that ever seemed 45 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: to matter was women's virginity, and specifically as it applied 46 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: to whether or not they had been penetrated by men. 47 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: And I was looking at this issue and it kept 48 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: coming up over and over and over again across this 49 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: very long history, because the history of virginity and it 50 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: was basically as old as we have history for and 51 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: I kept thinking, God, that's such a such a heterosexual 52 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: way to think about it. And then I thought. Then 53 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: I paused, and I thought to myself, but as a historian, 54 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: can I really say that, is that actually accurate? So like, 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: for instance, are you know, we're the authors of Deuteronomy Um. 56 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: Deuteronomy twenty three has quite a bit about virginity and lost, 57 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: how virginity gets lost and how you tell whether it's 58 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: real or not and all these things. So you know, 59 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: I had to ask myself as a historian this question 60 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: was okay, but you know, we're the people writing Deuteronomy 61 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: thinking of this as heterosexual? Is that was that even 62 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: an operating idea in their in their world? And so 63 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: that got me looking at this question of Okay, so 64 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: what is heterosexual where does that come from? How long 65 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: have we have been using this concept to etcetera, etcetera. 66 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: And the other thing that got me um interested in 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: working on heterosexuality is my own relationship of the past 68 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: fifteen years has been with somebody who is genetically intersexed, 69 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: whose sex chromosomes are not x X, which is this 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: typical female um sequence, or x Y, which is the 71 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: typical male sequence. Instead my my partner's chromosomes are x 72 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: x Y, So there's there's this third chromosome in there. 73 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: And when you have xx Y, how do you know? 74 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: You know, is this an x Y person with an 75 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: extra X or is this an x X person with 76 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: an extra y? You know? You don't know, and and 77 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: medical science doesn't know either. And so when you have 78 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: this person who is you know, in a very real 79 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: physical genetic a not male and female, what does that 80 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: due to sexual orientation? And that became a question that 81 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to try to to puzzle out. Next, Hannah 82 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: Blank talks a little bit more about the origin of 83 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: heterosexuality and the term itself, and talks about how it's 84 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: something that we might take for granted, just because we 85 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: kind of think that this word, this concept, this aspect 86 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: of our lives has always existed in the same way 87 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: that we think about it today. It didn't start out 88 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: in medicine. It started out as a as a legal term, 89 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: as a term that was sort of invented as a 90 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: way to describe a phenomenon that no one knew how 91 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: to describe. Um Carl Maria Cartbaney, who is an Austro 92 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: Hungarian journalist, was part of a group of people who 93 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: were protesting a Prussian sodomy law German sodomy law, and 94 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: in the course of his writing about that law, he 95 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: coined the terms heterosexual and homosexuals on the very same 96 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: day in the very same letter. And his reasons for 97 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: doing that was that he wanted a way to describe 98 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: human beings as being sexual. Human beings are sexual beings, 99 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: and these are these two different ways that human beings 100 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: can be sexual. Sort of you know the thing that 101 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: I've been saying um as I've been talking about this book, 102 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: cause it's a little bit like saying, you know, there 103 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: are couch pillows and there are bed pillows, but they're 104 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: both pillows. There's not an implied hierarchy. One kind of 105 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: pillow is not better than the other kind of pillow. 106 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: They're just different kinds of pillows. And that was the 107 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: kind of kind of implication that Kartpenny was trying for, 108 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: that there's not one kind of sexuality that is better, 109 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: they're just different. And so that was where that started, 110 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: and it started in this this totally non medical, non 111 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: scientific realm. So it's kind of talks about in the book. 112 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: One of the most sgnificant transitions of of this term 113 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: heterosexual and the term homosexual happens when it escapes from 114 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: law to medicine, specifically into psychiatry, and with that, the 115 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: meaning and the baggage attached to heterosexuality changes from being 116 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: just this sort of explanatory term to being something that's 117 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: more problematized. It establishes the heterosexual as the normative standard, 118 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: and then by default homosexual as problematic and abnormal. And 119 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: as we take that term UM to self label ourselves 120 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: as checking one box or another box, if we're speaking 121 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: just UM strictly in terms of the gender binary, then uh, 122 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: then the homosexual becomes non normative and therefore deviant. When 123 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: it got adopted in the way it came to us. 124 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: Um was through medicine, specifically through psychiatry, and psychiatry at 125 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: the time had a big investment, as it still does 126 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: today in helping to deal with various types of socially 127 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: problematic behaviors, among them sexual behaviors and recard. Foncraft aiding 128 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: Um was the psychiatrist who was the author of Psychopathia 129 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: Sexualis was the first to sort of pick up this 130 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: word heterosexual and use it in a in a professional 131 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: context in his field. And again it was it was 132 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: also a legal context. He was writing psychopatheo Sexualities as 133 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: a sort of Yellow Pages of disorders of sexuality that 134 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,359 Speaker 1: could be used by people who had to make legal decisions. 135 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: So he and he thought, he never defines heterosexual. He 136 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: never says, you know, and this is what a heterosexual is, 137 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: this is what they look like, this is what their 138 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: bodies are shaped like, none of that. He uses heterosexual 139 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: as the thing against which everything else gets defined. It's 140 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: the backed up it's and then there's these heterosexuals which 141 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: are not problematic and they're not pathological, and they're not 142 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: out there causing problems. So it gets defined by omission. 143 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: It's very circular way of doing it as being normal. 144 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: You know, this is the normative thing against which we 145 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: are judging all of these other problematic cases. And it 146 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: spends a while, you know, the terms spent a while, 147 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: you know, well into the twentieth century, the early twentieth 148 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: century sort of being batted around in the medical context 149 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: in various different ways. And you find early on some 150 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: American writers using it to mean bisexual, and what we 151 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: would now say it was bisexual because they took that 152 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: Greek root, that hetero, which means different, and assumed, okay, 153 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: well hetero, if there's somebody's attracted to different sexes, that 154 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: must mean they're attracted to both males and females. So 155 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: therefore we can use this word. We're going to use 156 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: it literally to mean somebody who's attracted to different sexes. Um. 157 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: And that that was one of the definitions that batted 158 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: around for a while, and eventually the sort of the 159 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: normal sexual definition took hold. It was partly about Havelock 160 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,599 Speaker 1: Ellis and partly about Freud, and it gradually filtered into 161 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: our common language. And as it filters into the common language, 162 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: I think is where the the most significant change happens. 163 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: When people start using it to refer to themselves and 164 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: their own lives, in their own relationships, Then they are 165 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: no longer just referring to sex or sexual desire, but 166 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: they're referring to the whole constellation of associated ideas about 167 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: under what circumstances should men and women be having sex 168 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: with one another? Under what sorts of emotional um circumstances 169 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: is it okay for women and men to feel desire 170 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: for one another? What kinds of desire is it okay 171 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: for them to feel? How should women and men organize 172 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: their relationships, What should their economic relationships to one another be? 173 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: All of that stuff that gets folded into how we 174 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: build families, how we build households, how people pair, bond 175 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: and take responsibility towards one another in different ways. As 176 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: people start to use the word to talk about themselves, 177 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: all of that starts to get folded into what we 178 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: mean when we say heterosexual. And that's why it's so 179 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: hard to define. So speaking about this this deviant behavior, 180 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: things that deviate from the norm, there's definitely a drive 181 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: to well, Hannah talks about this drive to define yourself 182 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: as one way or the other, and when you define 183 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: yourself as heterosexual, you were defining yourself as normal and 184 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: have certain boundaries to what that behavior entails. And so 185 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: she goes into how this makes the closet, this whole 186 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: drive to be one thing or another makes the closet 187 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: a very real place. We're talking about the impulse to 188 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: self define as normal and unexceptional, and to therefore self 189 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: defined as being worthy of being taken seriously and worthy 190 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: of being protected and worthy of not being harassed and 191 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: all of that stuff. And you know, there's a reason 192 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: that the closet exists. There's a reason people closet themselves. 193 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: This is real stuff. The stakes are high. Um, they're 194 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: not as high as they used to being, at least 195 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: not everywhere, but the steaks can be real, real high 196 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: for being seen as a deviant and also for seeing 197 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: yourself as a deviant, because when you're aware of what 198 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: happens to sexual deviance in your cult her, that's not 199 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: something you want to see in yourself. That's something that 200 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: you want to protect yourself from in you know, as 201 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: much as you possibly can. And that's one of the 202 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: places where heterosexual starts getting used. And as you say, 203 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: I write that, I write about that in the book, 204 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: that this is a term that when people start using 205 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: it to talk about themselves, they're using it to establish 206 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: their normalcy. They're using it to say I am not 207 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: all of these other things that cause problems and that 208 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: deserve punishment. And so a lot of this this evolution 209 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: of heterosexuality and homosexualities as these two conflicting terms, it's 210 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: all about this social idea of of normalcy and what 211 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: is normative and what is not. And with that in mind, 212 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: one of the most compelling themes in the book is 213 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: how the history of heterosexuality parallels the history of middle 214 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: class development, which when you think about the middle class 215 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: ideal of know, the husband, the wife, the two point 216 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: five kids, a dog in a white picket fence, it's 217 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: all about attaining and maintaining these normative standards of success 218 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: and what that looks like. And uh and I thought 219 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: that was so fascinating, and we wanted to ask or 220 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: why that intersection of middle class and heterosexuality exists. I mean, 221 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: it's about the fact that the people who have the 222 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: most economic and social power in a society get to 223 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: define what normal is for that society, and the idea 224 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: of heterosexual grew up at the very same time as 225 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: the middle classes rose to a position of social and 226 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: economic dominance. Um, you know, the eighteen sixties when the 227 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: word heterosexual was coined, our right smack in the middle 228 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: of a period where all over Europe and in North 229 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: America as well, you find that cultures of societies everywhere 230 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: going through these growing pains to define themselves as civil societies, 231 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: with civil civil laws and civil rulerships and civil governance 232 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: on a bunch of different levels. A lot of the 233 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: sort of the apparatus of a civil society comes from 234 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: that period of time. Government bureaucracies that are designed to 235 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: help regulate the way we lead our lives. Metropolitan police forces. 236 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: That's a big one that right arises up in that 237 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: last last quarter to a third of the nineteenth century. 238 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: The idea that a city has an obligation to protect 239 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: the safety of its citizens. And that is coming up 240 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: not because somebody is just suddenly very enlightened and saying, oh, 241 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: people deserve to be protected. It's because suddenly you have 242 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: this growing middle class with a lot of money and 243 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: a lot of cloud who are saying, hey, we aren't aristocrats, 244 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: we cannot lobby, we can't form an army, We can't have, 245 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,359 Speaker 1: you know, our own private guard, our own private militia, 246 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: and yet we need to be kept safe. How does 247 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: that work? How do we make that happen? Well, how 248 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: you make that happen is you make a civil police force. 249 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: That's that's an emblem of the middle class right there. 250 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: And so as the middle classes are growing and they 251 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: are becoming that powerful and they're able to mobilize that 252 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: kind of force in government. Socially, economically, most of most 253 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: of the economy is moving out of the hands of 254 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: the old um the old aristocratic regime, and into a 255 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: mercantile and industrial regime that's run by largely by middle 256 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: class people. Um, so the people who have the money, 257 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: the people who have the cloud. That people who have 258 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: the power are also the people who get to call 259 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: the shots in terms of what is considered appropriate and 260 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: what is considered normative in terms of how you lead 261 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: the rest of your life. So as far as people 262 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: in power go, these are the people who are in 263 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: a position to define what is normal and what is 264 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: accepted in society. And they're with the rise of marriage 265 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: being a civil institution not a religious one anymore in 266 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: the modern era. Um, all of a sudden. You know, 267 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: our our civil governments are tracking who's getting married, who's 268 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: owning property, and there were a lot of rights tied 269 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: in to marriage. But the laws have become more gender blind, 270 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: but there's still the issue of are they sexual orientation blind? 271 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: And she talks about that, Well, that's a really good question, 272 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: and that is in fact, part of what the whole 273 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: same sex marriage controversy is about. UM is you know, 274 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: is you know, basically that whole fourteenth Amendment issue. Do 275 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: we are we genuinely going to have equal representation for 276 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: all citizens under the law. Are we going to go 277 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: back to the principles of de condor say, and the 278 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: Declaration of Rights of Men and citizen, which is a 279 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: large part of what, you know, the the goals of 280 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: the American revolutionary founders are based on. Are we going 281 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: to go back to that and talk about this, you know, 282 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 1: complete egalitarian enfranchisement of all citizens or do we in 283 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: fact have for whatever reason, a de facto sort of 284 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: hierarchy of citizenship that we use and that's real and 285 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: valid and that we're going to uphold. Marriage is a 286 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: is a civil instrument. It's a civil legal instrument, and 287 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: UM governments have not always been invested in regulating marriage. 288 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: It used to be that that was a religious thing entirely, 289 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: and it was governed by religious law. And it was 290 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: not really until the eighteenth century that that civil governments 291 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: began to invest themselves in the regulation of marriage. Um. 292 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: And again this links into the rise of the middle classes. 293 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: It starts to happen in the mid eighteenth century. It 294 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: really hits it's it's stride in the nineteenth century, as 295 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, again, as the middle classes are on the rise, 296 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: and you've got all of these people with all of 297 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: this money and all of this power in the middle classes, 298 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: and the state has a really serious interest in knowing 299 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: who's marrying whom and having some sort of, um, some 300 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: sort of ability to control that and and decide who's 301 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: allowed to get married and who's not allowed to get married, 302 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: and how does property get handled into marriage and all 303 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: of those things. And what we're seeing really is, in 304 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: my opinion, um, you're seeing a lot of people who 305 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: have had this sort of state involvement in their personal 306 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: lives and in their relationships for you know, several hundred 307 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: years now, um, thinking you know what, we don't actually 308 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: need the state to be involved and at the same time, 309 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who have not had 310 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,239 Speaker 1: the option of being recognized in that official way. And 311 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: it is very very official, very formal to have the 312 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: state recognize your relationship. Certainly, um, a lot of people 313 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: who haven't had that option are saying, hey, look we 314 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: we demand to be recognized too. We're standing over here, 315 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: we're citizens. Why don't you want to regulate our lives? 316 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: Why don't you want to acknowledge our lives? Why our relationships? 317 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: Why is our property? Why are our children not important 318 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: enough to you? And so they're really there are two 319 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: very different experiences of interacting with the state and being 320 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: interacted with as citizens, and and it does kind of 321 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: boiled down to a citizenship issue. Who has full access 322 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: to the state, Who has full access to the government 323 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: that they have to live under. Now, I talked a 324 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: lot about the social and legal ramifications of the concepts 325 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: and the constructs of heterosexuality and homosexuality, but there's also 326 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: this scientific side of it that she talks about in 327 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: the book. There is this this quest to find some 328 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: biological difference between Kinsey's sheep and goats. Well, you know, 329 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: is there some kind of genetic turnkey something. And I 330 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: wanted to find out from Hannah why why we are 331 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: so hell bent to to keep putting sexual orientation under 332 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: the microscope. Why we need to as a society somehow 333 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: need scientific proof, maybe as some kind of security, get 334 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: to explain non normative behavior rather than just accepting it 335 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: as part of the social fabric. Are the cultural fabric? 336 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: The fact that, um, human sexuality might be more fluid 337 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: than just two boxes that you could check. I think 338 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: one of the big issues here is that we have 339 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: this notion that if something is provably biological, then it 340 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: is something over which human beings have no control. Um. 341 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: Now let's leave aside the fact that there are a 342 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: whole lot of biological things that can happen to bodies 343 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: over which we do, in fact have plenty of control. 344 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: Contraception comes to mind. Um. But there is this idea 345 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: that if something if it is a matter of nature, 346 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: if it is a fact of your biology, and you 347 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: did nothing to cause it, then you are not at 348 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: fault and cannot be punished for it. And that is 349 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: the draw having forced behind a lot of the biological 350 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: research into sexual orientation, is this idea that if we 351 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: can prove that sexual orientation has biological origin, that it 352 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: is biologically innate to human beings, cannot be changed, cannot 353 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: be induced one way or the other. Then there's an 354 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: argument to be made that, well, these this is just 355 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: the way people are. They can't do anything about it, 356 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: they did nothing to cause it, and therefore they should 357 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: be not be treated any worse for it, because clearly 358 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: it's not their fault. So that is the underlying sort 359 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: of thinking that goes on behind a lot of that 360 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: um and that is arguably it's another legacy of the 361 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: whole period, out of which the terms heterosection homosexual arise. 362 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: One of the other people protesting the same German sodomy 363 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: law was Carl Ulrich, who was a German UM. He's 364 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: a jurist, he worked in the law, and he formulated 365 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: what turned out to be a really influential idea, which 366 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: was this idea of inversion theory, which was basically that 367 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: gay men were gay because they weren't really men. They 368 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: were men on the outside, their bodies were male, but 369 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: their minds were female, and because they have this female mind, 370 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: that was why they desired other men. And a great 371 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: deal of what's been done in terms of biomedical research 372 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: on on sexual orientation has basically been to look for 373 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: ways in which homosexuals are not really either either male 374 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: or female that they are, you know, one thing on 375 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: the outside and another thing on the inside, and that's 376 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: where that comes from. And again Ulric's argument was basically, well, 377 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: if this is innate, if they're born this way, then 378 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: there's nothing to punish. There's nothing that can be punished, 379 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: and there's no point in punishing. So there's this deep faith. 380 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: I think that, um, deep and inexplicable faith in a 381 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: lot of ways, that this must be and in a 382 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: issue that this must be biological because we don't experience it, 383 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: we don't tend to experience it as a matter of 384 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: volition mhm and UM. I find that really unimaginative, since 385 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: there are lots of things that we do that we 386 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: don't have to intend to do that are clearly also 387 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: not biological. I mean, most of us who drive cars regularly, 388 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: we don't think about everything we do when we drive 389 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: a car. We've learned to do it really without without 390 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: much volition. You can avoid an accident without really meaning 391 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: to avoid an accident. You can do it by reflex um. 392 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,239 Speaker 1: So there there's a lot of gray area there, and 393 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: it gets very complex. And of course people are very 394 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the idea that sexuality might be that complex. 395 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: But it might be, there might be so many layers involved. 396 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: They want a simple, clear answer to why we do 397 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: things this way? Why are some people this way? And 398 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: why are other people a different way? And you know, 399 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: I I side in the book as a scientists this 400 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: isn't basically, um, you know, we believe that we can 401 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: we can divide people into these two groups, into heterosexuals 402 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: and homosexuals based on the fact that we have this 403 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: belief that human beings come in these two varieties and 404 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: in a very real way. That's what it boils down to, 405 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: is that we have we've adopted this belief, we have 406 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: a social use for this belief, and by golly, we 407 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: are we are bound into termined to find something that 408 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: can prove that. So, as we pointed out, the terms 409 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: heterosexual and homosexual have only been around since the eighteen sixties. 410 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: So we wanted to ask Hanna if she thought that 411 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: we could live in a post sexual orientation society. Well, 412 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: we certainly lived in a pre sexual orientation society. I 413 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: see no reason why we can't, you know, have a 414 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: post sexual orientation society. It's very it's very difficult to 415 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: imagine what that would look like because we're just we're 416 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: also steeped in it. But um, but as a historian, yeah, 417 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: I think, why why shouldn't that be possible? There's nothing 418 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: to keep us from doing it. What's really remarkable about 419 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: the idea of heterosexuality is that it took such a 420 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: short time comparatively speaking, I mean, from eighteen sixty eight 421 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: when the word is coined in nine three, when it 422 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: appears in the first you know, English language dictionary. Um, 423 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: that's not a medical dictionary. That's a really short period 424 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: of time for a concept like that to take hold, 425 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why I find that 426 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: history so fascinating. UM. And, as I argue in the book, 427 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: the reason it took hold was because it came to 428 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: be at a time when it was really useful and 429 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: it could do a lot of work for a society 430 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: that was in a process, you know, this process of 431 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: enormous social change, and there's nothing, there's absolutely nothing but 432 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: that would limit that from happening. Again, since you've probably 433 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: gathered from this interview, UM, and we didn't even touch 434 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: on nearly, like even close to everything that she that 435 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: she covers in the book. Um, but it's it's so 436 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: clear just from this brief conversation with Hannah that the 437 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: definition of heterosexuality is so vast and so broad, and 438 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: when we talk about sexual orientation, we're talking about so 439 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: many other larger things that really the end of the day, 440 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: it seems like orientation is you know, it's it's almost 441 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: an insignificant label when you consider the history and the 442 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: culture and the scientific quest that surrounded it. So um, 443 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: we wanted to find out that whether or not the 444 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: process of learning about this history of heterosexuality and writing 445 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: the book has changed Hannah's definition of heterosexuality, what what 446 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: is straight in her mind? Now? One of the things 447 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: that happened to me when I was studying because as 448 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: a history was I discovered just how much can be 449 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: absorbed by that word, and just how many kinds of behaviors, 450 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: and how many kinds of relationships, and how many kinds 451 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: of marriages, and how many kinds of economic arrangements, and 452 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: how many different kinds of sex people are having and 453 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: have been having for you know, a hundred years now, 454 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: and saying that this is heterosexual and um, it's it's 455 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: a pretty damn broad gamut. I mean, in the last 456 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: chapter of the book, I I compare heterosexuality to the 457 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: board from Star Trek. You know, this sort of huge, 458 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, traveling juggernaut that just sort of assimilates things 459 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: as it goes, and I don't you know, And that's 460 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: actually not so far off. There are there are some 461 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: limits to what heterosexuality has been able to assimilate, but 462 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: it's been able to assimilate an awful lot. What I 463 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: what I've found is that my my way of relating 464 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: to heterosexuality has changed. My way of relating to the 465 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: idea has changed in that I no longer consider it 466 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: a definition of anything in particular. I think of it 467 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: more as a sort of a guide to probability. I 468 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: think when somebody tells me, oh, I'm heterosexual, I think, okay, Well, 469 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: that gives me sort of better than fifty fifty odds 470 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: that I know a handful of things about what you 471 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: might do, be and desire, But it certainly doesn't give 472 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: me anything for free. So after all of this, everything 473 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: that Miss Blank has touched on, we wanted to ask 474 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: her for any final takeaways. Basically, you know, is there 475 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: anything that she wanted to drive home? And she she 476 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: talks about the flexibility of people's perception of what is 477 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: normal and how we are always sort of incorporating new 478 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 1: things into our definition of normal, into our definition of 479 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: just you know, heterosexual, homosexual, That there seems to be 480 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: more blurring and that's fine, and basically what we what 481 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: makes people feel good can be the new normal. You know. 482 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: I think that the big takeaway for me um having 483 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: written the book is that there's a lot more out 484 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: there than you think, and that if you basically, if 485 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: you feel like you're you're really sure that you know 486 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: what this is, I can guarantee you that you're wrong 487 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: and that that's actually a good thing. That's actually a 488 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: really really good thing, because what it means is that, 489 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, human there's a lot more human beings are 490 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: capable of a lot more, we do a lot more, 491 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: we're a lot more expensive. Then we often want to 492 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: give ourselves credit for being and some people find that 493 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: really threatening, um, but I I tend to find it 494 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: really liberating. I really like the fact that we push 495 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: those boundaries, that we we go places that we're not 496 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: supposed to go and then we find ways to incorporate 497 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: them back into our normal. Um. That's a really human 498 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: characteristic and it's a really interesting one, and it really 499 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: it bears watching. It bears a lot of watching. So 500 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: huge thanks to Hanna Blank for talking to us about 501 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: horror new book Straight, A Brief History of Heterosexuality. Um. 502 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: She was such an insightful interview. She had so much 503 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: knowledge to share with us, not at all of which 504 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: can even fit on this podcast. So I encourage everyone 505 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: out there to to go out check out Straight. It is, Um. 506 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean it's a history of yes, sexual orientation and 507 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: also the middle class, also marriage. It all ties together, 508 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: um in a in such a well done book. So 509 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: UM thumbs up to that. Now, the first email that 510 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: I have is from Steven and this is in response 511 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: to our episode on whether airbrushing damages body image. And 512 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: Steven points out that he is a professional photographer, very experience, 513 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: and he has been using Photoshop since its first release 514 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: in Wow and uh it's also a teacher of photoshop 515 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: and photo editing. And he says that one subject that 516 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: is not taught in our three graphic design degree programs 517 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: is ethics. I'm on the Curriculum Advisory Board, which works 518 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: with all of our neighboring colleges and tech schools to 519 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: make sure credits from our programs will transfer to and 520 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: from these other programs. Because of this, I'm fairly familiar 521 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: with their curriculum curriculums as well. None cover ethics. While 522 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: a few professional design societies do have statement of ethics 523 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: for their members, none is widely accepted and much less 524 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: are followed. Due to the ease with which photos can 525 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 1: be manipulated using free or nearly free software, I can't 526 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: see this issue being settled anytime soon. Unless you see 527 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: or hear something directly, you must assume that it has 528 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: been edited. Air Brushing is everywhere, Caroline, everywhere everywhere. I 529 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: I might even be airbrushed now, I have no idea. 530 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: You do look quite blemish free. Thank you. Um. This 531 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: is from Amy about our boxing episode. She says, I'm 532 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: a female who will be forty four next month. I've 533 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,439 Speaker 1: been training with a personal trainer for almost a year 534 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: and got seriously bored. I've never liked working out anyway, 535 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: so when he suggested boxing, I laughed, but was up 536 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: for anything to break up the monotony. Two months later, 537 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: I have fallen in love with it so much that 538 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: I had my husband hang a heavy bag in an 539 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: extra room so I can get my cardio in on 540 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: days I don't go to the gym. I've never felt 541 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: weird as far as gender goes. All this sparring with 542 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: my trainer for exercises as far as I can see 543 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: myself going. Especially at my age, I was always told 544 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: to find something I'd like doing, but never thought it 545 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: would be boxing. Just goes to show that it is 546 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: good to try something before discounting it, which is true. Amy. 547 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: Thank you for your letter. I have also tried sparring 548 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: with a trainer at the gym one and it was awesome, 549 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: and I can tell how it would really get you 550 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: in shape immediately because I almost picked out I've been 551 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: doing so many fast repetitions of things for such a 552 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: long stretch of time. I was like, really, I'm I'm 553 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: in the color of a made right now. Maybe I 554 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 1: should sit down, but yes, it is an excellent workout. 555 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: So thank you for your letter, and thanks to everyone 556 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: who has written in and if you have any thoughts 557 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: to share with us about the interview. Hannah Blank Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, uh. 558 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: Let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot 559 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: com is where you can send them, and you can 560 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: also let us know what you're thinking on Facebook and 561 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, and of course, you 562 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: can always check out our articles during the week. You 563 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: can find them at how stuff works dot com. Be 564 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from 565 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore 566 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The house 567 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: Stuff Works iPhone app has a ride. Download it today 568 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: on iTunes, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand 569 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: twelve camera. It's ready, are you