1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. This 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: is our fourteenth, fourteenth season, and we're doing what I 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: like to think of as the opposite of the Ezra 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: Klein approach. We're digging deep and trying to understand. 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 2: The moment that we're in because we're at a really 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: bad time on climate right now, and you know, democracy 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 2: and justice and all sorts of other things, and we're 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 2: only just starting to really understand some of the forces 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: that have worked really hard. 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: To bring us to this moment. So you know, it's 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: time to do the reading. For me, understanding the lack. 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: Of political will to act on climate has always begun 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: with talking. 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: To social scientists, So for this season, I wanted to 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: talk to some of the best, the folks behind an 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: incredible new book from the Climate Social Science Network at 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: Brown University that pulls together everything we currently know about 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: climate obstruction, how it's happened all over the world. In 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: the first four episodes of the season, we looked at 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: how obstruction works, so we looked at pr and media 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: and the psychology of this stuff. In the next few episodes, 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: we'll focus on who's doing it, which industries are working 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: the hardest to obstruct climate action. First up, no surprise, 24 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry. They're not the only ones doing it, 25 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 1: of course, but they are certainly one of the biggest 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: obstacles to climate action. Joining me today is a voice 27 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: that might be familiar to longtime listeners, Kurt Davies, the 28 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: investigator who read to us from so many great documents 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: that he'd found back in season one of the podcasts. 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: Kurt is at the Center for Climate Integrity. These days 31 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: we also have Jeff Dembigie, global Energy editor of diesbog 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: and author of the book The Petroleum Papers, and Christopher 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: Eckberk from the University of Lund in Sweden. Let's get 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: in to it. 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 3: I am Kurt Davies. 36 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 4: I am the Director of Special Investigations at the Center 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 4: for Climate Integrity in Washington, d C. 38 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 3: Hi. 39 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 5: I'm kristofek but I'm associate Senior lecturer in Human Ecology 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 5: at Lund University in Sweden. 41 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 3: Hi. 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 6: I am Jeff dam Bickie. I am Global Managing Editor 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 6: with the Climate Investigation Side ds MOG. 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 7: I want to start out talking about this thing that 45 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 7: you guys start with in your chapter, which is the 46 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 7: oil and gas industry's sudden embrace post Paris of net 47 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 7: zero and all that it entails. There's this this line 48 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 7: from an email that came out during the government's investigations 49 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 7: in the US on climate disinformation. That's from the BP 50 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 7: global head of Sustainability and Climate Policy, and Kurt, I'm 51 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 7: going to ask you to do what I always ask 52 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 7: you to do, which is read documents. Could you read 53 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 7: this line from this guy? He kind of references embracing 54 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 7: net zero and backing the Paris Climate Agreement is the 55 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 7: most obvious course of action to take, and then he says, yes. 56 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 4: I was reading the whole thing again earlier. And so 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 4: it's an internal discussion within BP about Trump what Trump 58 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 4: is going to do with Paris in March of twenty seventeen. 59 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: And that's important because we really didn't know what they 60 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: would do yet. And there's an article they're referring to 61 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 4: where it says Trump administration might stay in Paris but 62 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 4: kill the Obama pledge, so effectively be in the agreement 63 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 4: without agreeing to do anything. And so the discussion within 64 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 4: VP is Paul Jeffers' rights to Bob Stout and about 65 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 4: six other people. He says, interesting Obviously I don't know 66 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 4: what will happen, but this looks like the most obvious 67 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 4: course of action to take all of the benefits and 68 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 4: few of the risks. This is really why the Paris 69 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 4: Agreement was designed the way it was to enable flexible 70 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 4: transition from one political regime to the next. No one 71 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,559 Speaker 4: is committed to anything other than to stay in the game. 72 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 4: And that last line, wow, really applies to the oil companies, right. 73 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 4: They don't have to really commit to anything, but they 74 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 4: want to stay in the game. 75 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 7: Right, Okay, So why were oil and gas companies so 76 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 7: into the idea of net zero comitment. 77 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 6: Well, I think it was a period when the global 78 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 6: consensus really was in favor of climate action, aggressive climate 79 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 6: action perhaps, or just the appearance of it. And the 80 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 6: oil and gas industry always wants to look like it's 81 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 6: on the side of what all global governments and everyone 82 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 6: is going to do for climate and the economy. And 83 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 6: so during this period, the companies are all coming out 84 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 6: and saying, yeah, we like we like net zero two, 85 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 6: this is great, We're going to transform our operations with 86 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 6: all sorts of new technologies. And it was also a 87 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 6: period when a bunch of internal documents from the industry 88 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 6: had been unearthed by journalists at the Los Angeles Times 89 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 6: and other outlets, and a bunch of lawsuits were beginning 90 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 6: to be filed against the industry that really scrutinized its 91 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 6: past history of climate change denial and other obstruction tactics. 92 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 6: And so this this was a period when it just 93 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 6: really made a lot of sense for a whole bunch 94 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 6: of reasons for the industry to try to portray itself 95 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 6: as a climate leader. 96 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 4: The only thing I would add to that, I think 97 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 4: is that the net zero concept actually starts a few 98 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 4: years earlier with the IPCC, with the scientists, and they 99 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 4: are trying to figure out what dangerous climate change is, 100 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 4: debating the two degree one point five degree limit, and 101 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 4: it's originally a chart that shows if you're going to 102 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 4: get to a safe climate, you have to have net 103 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 4: zero emissions by some point in time to get there, 104 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 4: And so governments adopt that language, and then the corporations say, well, 105 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 4: if we're saying the same thing, that'll be cozy. So 106 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 4: I feel like it was of convenience that they started 107 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 4: using the same verbiage to seem like they were in 108 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 4: sync with the scientists. Commandment and the government effort. 109 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 5: I think it also relates to something that we probably 110 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 5: will come back to, but this focus on emissions specifically 111 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 5: that there was this was also a way to talk 112 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 5: about climate action without having to talk about well extraction 113 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 5: of fossil fuels basically or scope three emissions in more 114 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 5: specific ways. So it was a sort of way out 115 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 5: of more difficult discussions for fossil fuel companies. 116 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: Exactly. 117 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 7: Okay, so you guys talk in this chapter about climate 118 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 7: obstruction in a few different ways, and specifically about three 119 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 7: categories of obstruction tactics, denial, delay, and co optation. Can 120 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 7: I have you define those terms for us and talk 121 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 7: a little bit about the interplay between them. I thought 122 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 7: this was really important, this point that you make that 123 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 7: wasn't like first there was denial, and then there was delay, 124 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 7: and then there was this sort of like all this 125 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 7: stuff happening all the time. So would love to have 126 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 7: you explain that. 127 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 5: I think this is actually one of the most important 128 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 5: things that we contribute with is just to focus on 129 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 5: this that the responses from fossil fuel companies aren't really 130 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 5: they're not linear in that sense, but very dependent on context, 131 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 5: and we can show that, yeah, all companies in different 132 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 5: regions use these different tactics throughout well basically from the 133 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 5: nineteen seventies and onwards, but depending on context. So it's 134 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 5: not sort of this obvious development from denying scientific facts 135 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 5: to delaying sort of obstructing the environmental policy or climate 136 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 5: change policy discussions, but rather that these strategies change depending 137 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 5: on the challenges specific challenges that oil industry face. And 138 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 5: I think with the three categories it was one way 139 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 5: to divide it. But I mean there's a lot of 140 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 5: different concepts floating around in these discussions. But I would 141 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 5: say that perhaps with denial, we're talking specifically about well 142 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 5: denying the scientific facts of climate change, global warming, and 143 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 5: we delay. Our focus is primarily on the sort of 144 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 5: economic scare tactics of fossil fuel company and sort of 145 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 5: this idea that climate change action or action against climate 146 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 5: change will hurt different people regions in different ways. And 147 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 5: with co optation, we trace basically the way that fossil 148 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 5: fuel companies have been involved in framing the issue in 149 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 5: coming up suggestions on how to perhaps tackle the question 150 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 5: or not tackle the question. 151 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 6: And what I would add to that is there's sort 152 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 6: of like two overriding things that are key to understanding 153 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 6: these tactics. One is that no matter what tactic the 154 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 6: oil and gas industry is using at any given time, 155 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 6: the ultimate goal is to allow the industry to keep 156 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 6: producing as much oil and gas as possible. And what 157 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 6: allows the industry to shift back and forth between these 158 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 6: tactics depending on whatever the political or economic context is, 159 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 6: is that the industry is always right on the vanguard 160 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,359 Speaker 6: of doing all of the research and establishing the expertise 161 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 6: it needs to lead any given debate. So oil and 162 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 6: gas companies were able to deny the science because they 163 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 6: had studied the science for so long. They were able 164 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 6: to use convincing sounding economics scare tactics because they were 165 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 6: some of the first organizations to really study the economics 166 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 6: of climate change, and they were able to co op 167 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 6: the process because the process of international climate negotiations, because 168 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 6: from day one they were involved with it, learning all 169 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 6: the nuances of it. And so I think that's really 170 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 6: key to all of this as well. 171 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 7: And I think pointing out that these things are shifting 172 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 7: around all the time and constantly being used helps people 173 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 7: understand the resurgence of denial. 174 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 4: Now right, Yeah, that was I think we worked hard 175 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 4: at that in the chapter to sort of break that, 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: as you said, linear logic that people have used like that, 177 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: it went from a period of denial into a period 178 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 4: of play along, feel good co optation. And it really 179 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 4: is whatever tactic is needed at any given time, they 180 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 4: can play it, and that's what happens. And here we 181 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 4: are now and you don't see any green washing because 182 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 4: they don't need to have green washing right now. 183 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 7: It's not necessary any necessary. 184 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 5: Yeah. 185 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 7: You do talk about the evolution of denial a little 186 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 7: bit too, and not just denial of climate change and 187 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 7: the science behind what drives it and all that, but 188 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 7: also of even more basic concepts like I don't know, 189 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 7: this thing of we're yeah, we're totally committed to this 190 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 7: stuff while continuing to increase production volumes and things like that, which, 191 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 7: as you point out, has just becomes so normal that 192 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 7: it's people don't even pay attention to it anymore. So, Yeah, 193 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 7: I would love to have you expand on that a 194 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 7: little bit. What are some of the other ways that 195 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 7: they use denial of basic science to their benefit. 196 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that the point here was that it's 197 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 4: not just flat denial, it's not happening greening Earth, you know, 198 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 4: which we still see, we see again even in the 199 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 4: Trump report that just came out, but that we can 200 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 4: denial can be just denying the urgency, denying what scientists 201 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 4: are saying needs to be cut to save us. And 202 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 4: the slowing down is a form of denial. And you know, ultimately, 203 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 4: you know, as we were saying, that the you know, 204 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 4: denying helps them avoid the real discussion of the need 205 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 4: for fossil fuel phase out, the need to cut production 206 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 4: of their products, and that's what they really don't want, 207 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: so they look for every other pathway that allows their 208 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 4: business to continue, and that includes you know, carbon capture 209 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 4: mythologies and treating with natural carbon credits and all these 210 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 4: other schemes that are in fact denying what the scientists 211 00:13:58,800 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 4: say is urgently needed. 212 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 5: Now, I was just thinking about bringing it back to 213 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 5: this Stanley Cohen, who's sort of been very influential in 214 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 5: the discussion of denial and his idea of implicatory denial 215 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 5: that is very much what we see basically people not 216 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 5: acting others have talked about, yeah, refusal or other words, 217 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 5: just to describe what we also show in the chapter 218 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 5: that even though we have these promises of a climate action, 219 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 5: we see that, Yeah, production just goes up, and there's 220 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 5: like in their own annual reports, there's no sign of 221 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 5: cutting production. 222 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 6: So yeah, and what I would say is, like with 223 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 6: the implicit denial, it's basically like the same obstruction mechanism, 224 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 6: Like in the hardcore denial days in like the nineties, 225 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 6: industry would be like, climate change isn't happening, and then 226 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 6: they would keep producing more and more oil and gas 227 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 6: at the same time. So obviously they got a lot 228 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 6: of flack that they looked kind of crazy to the public. Eventually, 229 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 6: so the company is just like deleted that like really 230 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 6: in your face denial, but just kept doing basically the 231 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 6: exact same things. So now they say, oh, yeah, we 232 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 6: acknowledge climate change is real and urgent, and then their 233 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 6: production keeps going up and up and up. So despite 234 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 6: a lot of rhetorical change over the years, the sort 235 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 6: of material circumstances of what they're doing remain almost exactly 236 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 6: the same. 237 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 5: And it might be also important to say that this 238 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 5: sort of more obvious science denial hasn't disappeared. I mean, 239 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 5: it might have disappeared from the fossil fuel company strategies 240 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 5: or rhetoric, but it has appeared in other places, like 241 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 5: in for right environments, and I mean with Trump and 242 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 5: others like we see see those kind of claims still there, 243 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 5: but perhaps not as much from fossil fueled companies as before. 244 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 6: Well, if you consider that the current Energy Secretary, Chris Wright, 245 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 6: used to be a fracking executive until very recently, and 246 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 6: now he's sponsoring a report saying that the human contribution 247 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 6: to climate change is I think we're. 248 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 4: Like that sure, And adding to that, I would credit 249 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 4: Exon's money and coke Industry's money with keeping denial alive. 250 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: You know, Exon. 251 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 4: Paid a fortune to keep these voices active in the 252 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 4: late nineties and into the early two thousands. Coke industries 253 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 4: paid a lot of money to these same organizations. So 254 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 4: the whole reason that Chris Wright has learned those things 255 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 4: is because of megaphones that the oil companies bought. 256 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, well, Chris Writ's been brown down with the 257 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 7: cokes for a long time. Okay. So I realized that 258 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 7: this question could take like the whole hour to answer, 259 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 7: so feel free to just give me the headlines. But 260 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 7: I do want to talk a little bit about the 261 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 7: role that industry led an industry funded research has played 262 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 7: into all of this as well, like the extent to 263 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 7: which they have tried to use credible seeming science or 264 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 7: credibly adjacent science to earn themselves a seat at the 265 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 7: table and then use that seat to mess things up. 266 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: Along the way. You know, it's actually different for each company. 267 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 4: We don't know a lot about what the individual companies 268 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 4: were studying, except for Shell and Exxon especially. We have 269 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 4: evidence that the American Patrolling Institute as a body was 270 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 4: monitoring the science very very broadly, and through the GCC. 271 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 4: They were sending people to the Governmental Panel and climate 272 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 4: change meetings, were reporting back to all of them what 273 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 4: was going on in the science. But as far as 274 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 4: their own research, we know exem was doing its own modeling, 275 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 4: it knew what was going on. We know Shell looked 276 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 4: at all the science in the early eighties and determined 277 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 4: that by the time the science was unequivocal, it would 278 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 4: be too late, in their words, which is kind of 279 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 4: grim and they actually proposed a more precautionary approach internally, 280 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 4: but never said that out loud to the world. Shell 281 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 4: but this is kind of crucial that they were playing 282 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 4: along and part of what they started to lead research 283 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 4: on was things like carbon capture, which is the ultimate 284 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 4: holy grail now for the oil industry is that we 285 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 4: can keep burning fossil fuels as long as we capture 286 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 4: some of the carbon and tuck it back in the ground, 287 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 4: and which they have never done effectively, but that's on 288 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 4: the horizon. Dream has allowed them to keep producing in 289 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 4: selling oil because they're working on it, because they're researching it. 290 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, and I would give the example of Exon and 291 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 6: carbon pricing. So in part of the period that we're 292 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 6: looking at in the chapter following the twenty fifteen Paris talks, 293 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 6: Exon was part of organizations that we're calling for a 294 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 6: price on carbon and said, you know, this is the 295 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 6: type of policy we could potentially support. And then of 296 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 6: course the Exon lobbyist Keith McCoy was secretly recorded by 297 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 6: Greenpeace researchers saying that the company only supports a carbon 298 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 6: price because it gives it a nice talking point and 299 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 6: it actually knows that this is probably never going to 300 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 6: happen in the US. And that was just such a 301 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 6: fascinating admission because it sort of confirmed what a lot 302 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 6: of people thought. But it also came as Exon was 303 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 6: going to war with basically every major substantial climate policy 304 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 6: that was proposed in the US, and then as a 305 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 6: defense it could say, well, we support this carbon pricing thing. 306 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 6: And so of course after that interview came out, Exon 307 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 6: kind of dropped any pretense of that. But I think 308 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 6: I think that shows what this co opting dynamic is 309 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 6: all about. 310 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 5: Also another example with that Learonovskiaez looked at the SHELL 311 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 5: sponsored research by James Lovelock, for example, which is I 312 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 5: think that adds another bit to it that is not 313 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 5: always and this is historical research, so it's not always 314 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 5: that the industry let research have been like instrumental or 315 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 5: specifically targeting climate change or climate science. But sometimes it's 316 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 5: sort of a broader perspective where they can sort of 317 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 5: pick and choose later on specific things that they bring 318 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 5: to the fore. So in this case, the adapt ability 319 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: of natural systems or the fact that some organisms emits 320 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 5: CEO two that later on could be used as a 321 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 5: part of science. Ton So I think it's also important 322 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 5: to like, not everything is very instrumental. They have a 323 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 5: lot of resources so can actually fund quite broadly in 324 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 5: a sense. 325 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 7: Yeah, just sort of like shape basic understandings and things too. Actually, relatedly, 326 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,239 Speaker 7: can I have you guys speak to how important it 327 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 7: was for these companies to get academics, especially academics connected 328 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 7: with elite universities, to carry water for some of their ideas, 329 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 7: or even just to do research along with their scientists. 330 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 4: I think starting with the GCC, we see that they 331 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 4: were participating in scientific processes industry, especially Exon scientists were 332 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 4: co authors and part of the IPCC process. It was 333 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 4: important for them, they felt too, to be in that 334 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 4: room to know where the science was. They heavily focused 335 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 4: on the modeling. They still do because they know that 336 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 4: the forecasting is really what drives the urgency, and they 337 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 4: start to form partnerships with academic institutions BP at Princeton, 338 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 4: EXON at Stanford, Exon at MIT to bring those logos 339 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 4: next to theirs. Then they also have third party surrogates 340 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 4: like Richard Lindzen at MIT or Pat Michaels who was 341 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 4: at UVA, who will say the things that they don't 342 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 4: want to say, but they have an incredible academic label, 343 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 4: and they were more useful than just the pundits at 344 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 4: the think tanks because it made it look like serious 345 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 4: people disagreed with the urgency of climate change or the 346 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 4: Jim Hanson. It was a counter to the jimhnns and 347 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 4: mode of speaking about the issue, or Steve Schneider. So 348 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 4: it was a I think a very deliberate effort to 349 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 4: again just cast doubt. 350 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: All. 351 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 4: Their whole objective is to have some shred of doubt 352 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 4: around the issue, which gives somebody in the policy arena, 353 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 4: some politician, the ability to say, let's wait and study this, 354 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 4: let's look at this a little bit more. 355 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: It's not that urgent. Look this guy at MIT just said, 356 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 3: it's not that bad. 357 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 4: That's ongoing and has been going heavily for thirty years now. 358 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 7: Yeah, I would argue it's maybe even increasing now that 359 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 7: public funding is getting good too. Anyone else want to 360 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 7: add to that. 361 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'd say having these prestigious academic institutions attached to 362 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 6: denial really helps influence policymakers. But from the very earliest 363 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 6: days of public denial, a lot of these spokespeople were 364 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 6: encouraging Americans and whoever else to spread these ideas in 365 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 6: their own social or family networks. So some of the 366 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 6: earliest denial ads on the radio, people would say change 367 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 6: begins at the dinner table. You should you should share 368 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 6: these ideas with people close to you because it's such 369 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 6: an important discussion to have. And so I think the 370 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 6: only way that you can really convince a ton of 371 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 6: people to accept something as crazy is what the companies 372 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 6: were pushing with denial is if it comes from someone 373 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 6: you trust, and so I think that's what this whole 374 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 6: process is all about. And then, of course, when this 375 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 6: whole discussion shifted online onto big digital media platforms, I 376 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 6: think that really allowed all of this to supercharge because 377 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 6: it wasn't necessarily some big evil oil company telling you 378 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 6: to distrust scientists. It was like your uncle who you 379 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 6: meet with once a week, posting something on Facebook. 380 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 7: Right, right, Okay, we mentioned economics before and how the 381 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 7: industry was amongst the earliest, if not the earliest, to 382 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 7: study the economic implications of climate policy. So would love 383 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 7: to talk about that a little bit more. What they 384 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 7: did and how important that was to obstruction and efforts. 385 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 6: Well, I always point to this study that Exxon's Canadian subsidiary, 386 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 6: Imperial Oil, created in the early nineteen nineties, and so 387 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 6: Imperial and Exon were like so far ahead of the 388 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 6: curve in understanding climate change, that they were hiring consultants 389 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 6: and actively studying solutions to climate change in the early nineties, 390 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 6: and this was only a few years after James Hansen 391 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 6: had given his testimony to Congress and turned climate change 392 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 6: into sort of like a big mainstream issue. And so 393 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 6: in one of these were ports that Exxon and Imperial commissioned, 394 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 6: they determined that a price on carbon emissions in Canada 395 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 6: could potentially stabilize greenhouse gas emissions in the country without 396 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 6: a hugely negative impact on the economy because governments would 397 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 6: have so much additional revenue from taxing carbon. The company 398 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 6: and its consultants determined, however, that carbon pricing would be 399 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 6: specifically bad for Imperial's bottom line, and therefore they came 400 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 6: up with a strategy to portray carbon pricing and any 401 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 6: other climate solution in the worst possible light to media 402 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 6: and policy makers, and so that this approach was tried 403 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 6: out in kind of an experimental sense in places like 404 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 6: Canada and other regions, and then it really started to 405 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 6: go mainstream throughout the nineties, to the point where any 406 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 6: discussion about climate change always contained this reflex of response 407 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 6: from industry saying that any solution will destroy the economy. 408 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 3: And here we are in twenty twenty five. 409 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 7: I know, it's like the consistent talking point even from 410 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 7: a lot of people who say that they think we 411 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 7: should act on climate. 412 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 4: I think that's important that they wanted to feather this 413 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 4: in because it allowed even people who cared to hedge 414 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 4: by saying, but we shouldn't hurt the economy. And that's 415 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 4: also the basis of really the bird Hagel stuff and 416 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 4: the stuff that the American Patrol means to push after 417 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 4: Kyoto was Yes, but we shouldn't hurt the American economy. 418 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 4: And that's really a powerful message, and of course resonates 419 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 4: more with average people than environmental benefit if you're going 420 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 4: to hurt the economy. And it even came down to 421 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 4: very deliberate scare tactics when they started doing these so 422 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 4: called economics reports where ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, 423 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 4: did a report that showed all the bad things that 424 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 4: would happen state by state. I think it was ALEC, 425 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 4: you know that, you know you if you do Kyoto, 426 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 4: it's going to raise the price of energy by one 427 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 4: two hundred and twelve dollars in Iowa and total made 428 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 4: up numbers, but very effective local headlines they could create 429 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 4: with these economic so called studies. And one of the 430 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 4: people who did those studies admitted in a documentary recently 431 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 4: that they failed to include the economic downside of climate change, 432 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 4: the damages in their equations, So not very good math 433 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 4: in the end. 434 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 5: And I think as coming from from history always, I 435 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 5: have a pH d in history, So that's why it 436 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 5: might be a way that I said. I'm in human ecology, 437 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 5: but I'm a historian by training, and I think this 438 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 5: is sort of a anti environmental talking point already from 439 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies. I guess with already with the oil crisis, 440 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 5: that if something hurts basically energy industry largely, then that 441 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 5: will affect your possibility for transportation, for heating, for electricity. 442 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 5: So it's a very close by topic or I don't 443 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 5: know how to say it correctly in English, but yes, 444 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 5: you can sort of feel it right away. So I 445 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 5: think that's the way it has been very effective, and 446 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 5: it's been used. I mean, now we talked about the US, 447 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 5: but as we show in the papers, we talked about 448 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 5: the basically oil industries attacks on the suggestion to have 449 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 5: a joint carbon tax, in the European in early nineteen nineties, 450 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 5: where Yeah, basically the same talking points were used. So 451 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 5: it's an effective around the world tactic. 452 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 4: I guess making it look like sacrifice instead of progress 453 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 4: is really what right they tried to do the whole time. 454 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, and I think another important part of that 455 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 6: was dismantling this conservative consensus that protecting the environment is 456 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 6: also good for the economy, which took a lot of 457 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 6: deliberate work on the part of oil and gas because 458 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,239 Speaker 6: even up into the nineties, you know, some of the 459 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 6: most consequential environmental initiatives came from conservative politicians, Republican administrations, 460 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 6: and so the oil and gas industry. By using these 461 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 6: scare tactics, it wasn't just rhetorical. They could reorient an 462 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 6: entire side of the political spectrum to get the kind 463 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 6: of anti regulatory policies that they wanted. Yeah. 464 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 7: I mean, I feel like we could almost point to 465 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 7: the current abundance discourse is the ultimate success here. 466 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 5: Yeah. I just came back from a conference and we 467 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 5: talked about this, like, should we under stand climate change 468 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 5: denial as primarily an environmental issue or something developed in 469 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 5: relation to environmental issue, or if we should see it 470 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 5: as an energy issue. I think that really makes a 471 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 5: difference in how we see that. We can see that well, 472 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 5: basically some part of the Conservatives could actually agree on 473 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 5: environmental stuff, but when it came to questions on energy 474 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 5: and basically economic growth and those kind of issues, then yeah, 475 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 5: there's a much stronger pushback. 476 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 4: Which has always made it harder than solving the ozone 477 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 4: layer or toxic waste or other things that other environmental challenges. 478 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 7: Right, so not at all. Unrelatedly, can I have you 479 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 7: walk through a quick history of the Waxman Marquee Act 480 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 7: and how I don't know, sort of a combination of 481 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 7: these obstruction tactics work to kill it. 482 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can take this. I mean the evolution of 483 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 4: wax and Marquee. Of course, it's in two thousand and nine, 484 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 4: so Obama has just been elected. There's been a bit 485 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 4: of a sea change in the US in the second 486 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 4: Bush term where more climate action is inevitable. So Obama 487 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 4: gets elected and both the House and the Senate are 488 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 4: in Democratic hands. So we're going to I heard someone 489 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 4: say we're going to run the table on climate and 490 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 4: the first play was, of course, they went after healthcare 491 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,239 Speaker 4: first and that was a mistake, so it got the 492 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 4: enemy riled up, including the Koch brothers. But Waxman Marquee 493 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 4: was constructed in the same form as all other climate 494 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 4: policy at the time, a sort of cap and trade 495 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 4: mentality of putting a cap on carbon and then figuring 496 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 4: out a way to get. 497 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 3: To those goals. 498 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 4: The mistake was that many the people who ran the 499 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 4: game thought that the coal fired utilities and coal interests 500 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 4: were going to be the biggest obstruction and therefore needed 501 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 4: the biggest handout to get them to not try to 502 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 4: kill the bill. So there were a lot of handouts 503 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 4: for coal fired power plants if they could get to 504 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 4: carbon capture, and I'm calling them handouts, but the smart 505 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 4: people who wrote it probably thought they were really clever 506 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 4: devices to get some action out of those industries, and 507 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 4: there was nothing in it for big oil. So after 508 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,239 Speaker 4: the bill passed the House in the early summer, then 509 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,239 Speaker 4: the oil industry got really mobilized and went after it, 510 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 4: and we see the birth of the Energy Citizens campaign 511 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 4: by American Petroleum Institute with Edelman PR's help, where they 512 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 4: went after it hard and they basically knew they could 513 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 4: kill it in the Senate and that's where it died. 514 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 4: It never evolved. The importance of two thousand and nine 515 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 4: can't be underestimated because we were headed towards the Copenhagen 516 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 4: meeting of the UNF Triple C, and that was going 517 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 4: to be what Paris eventually was was a rebirth after 518 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: Kyoto fizzled, and it was supposed to be then. And 519 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 4: then because the Obama administration had nothing to bring because 520 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 4: Waxman Marquee didn't evolve into law, then that meeting fizzled, 521 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 4: also Climategate, but it was it was really a failure 522 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 4: of the US to lead. And then we're you know, 523 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 4: of course into a whole mess the next year with 524 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 4: the Deep Water Horizon. But the Wasston Marquee, you know, 525 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 4: the concept was good, and it was the first major 526 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 4: attempt at an economy wide you. 527 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 3: Know, law in the US, and it didn't didn't get there. 528 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 6: And another important piece of that, and that's a great summary, Kurt, 529 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 6: is that this really came during a moment when a 530 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 6: lot of conservatives were sort of cautiously embracing climate action publicly, 531 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 6: including even Rupert Murdoch, who said he wanted to use 532 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 6: his media empire to push out pro climate messages at 533 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 6: one point, which just seems insane now, but you had 534 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 6: the heads of oil companies coming out saying climate change 535 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 6: is real. Lindsey Graham was backing the cap and trade effort, 536 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 6: and so the smart oil and gas people realized they 537 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 6: needed to break that emerging consensus on the right. And 538 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 6: so when all of these Tea Party protests started erupting 539 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 6: around healthcare, that's when coke industries and other oil and 540 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 6: gas money kind of got involved in trying to steer 541 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 6: that grassroots right wing movement again that's climate action. And 542 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 6: they were very successful in doing that. And as the 543 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 6: Tea Party progressed, one of its major policy goals was 544 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 6: to repeal Wax and Marquee. And in the process of 545 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 6: all of these like angry revolts and far right people 546 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 6: screaming at their representatives, Lindsey Graham got spooked. He pulled 547 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 6: his support for the bill. Fox News went fully in 548 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 6: bed with the Tea Party and was pulled even further 549 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 6: to the right. A lot of these sort of conservative 550 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 6: thought leader people backed off and started embracing climate denial again, 551 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 6: and within a few years, this consensus that we needed 552 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 6: to do something about climate change, even among conservatives was 553 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 6: sort of like lying in tatters on the ground. 554 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 7: It's interesting and depressing story. 555 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 4: McCain also needs to be mentioned there. McCain, who lost 556 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 4: to Bush in the Republican primary for two thousand comes 557 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 4: back and becomes a climate champion and pushes a bill 558 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 4: for years that was losing again and again and again. 559 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 4: But that was part of what Jeff was mentioning that 560 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 4: there was there were actually a lot of conservatives who 561 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 4: realized something had to be done on this, and that 562 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 4: was pushing Bush, and that was pushing the politics on it. 563 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 4: You know, even Mitt Romney, who ran for president against Obama, 564 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 4: was better on a climate change than any Republican had been. 565 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 4: So there's an inevitability in two thousand and nine that 566 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 4: I think we squandered collectively. 567 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 7: Despite this consistent effort to push against any kind of action, 568 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 7: and you know, the billions and billions of dollars and 569 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 7: lobbying and marketing and fogus research and all of this stuff, 570 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 7: the industry does still position itself as part of the 571 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 7: solution on climate And I wonder if you could speak 572 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 7: to I guess see how and why that is still happening. 573 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 6: Well, I think more than anything else. The oil and 574 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 6: gas industry is in the business of managing risk. And 575 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 6: so despite this like full fledged turn towards insane, hardcore 576 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 6: climate change denial under the Trump administration, a lot of 577 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 6: major oil and gas companies they're still kind of hedging 578 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 6: their bets politically, I think a little bit. They can 579 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 6: kind of like implicitly support a lot of the things 580 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 6: the Trump administration is doing, but they won't come out 581 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 6: and say, yeah, all of this climate stuff was like 582 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 6: totally bullshit and we actually think it's fake because they 583 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 6: know the political wins could turn again and then that's 584 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 6: suddenly going to become a liability for them, and so 585 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 6: I think it's in their best interest to sort of 586 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 6: maintain this very kind of like hollow facade that they 587 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 6: are climate leaders while kind of quietly racing everything that 588 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 6: Trump is pushing. 589 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 7: Well, and there are global companies too, right, so they 590 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 7: still have deal with other governments. 591 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 5: I think the example that we have on equin or 592 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 5: the state owned company Norway is quite telling. Actually the 593 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 5: Utanists contributed with the an old company that is sort 594 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 5: of bound by a lot of climate legislation in Norway 595 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 5: and the carbon tax, but still sort of yeah, produce 596 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 5: a lot of oil, but then have had to change 597 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 5: their model and talking about producing green oil, basically electrifying 598 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 5: all of their production, but still pumping up oil and gas. 599 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 5: And that's very much like how they have been able 600 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 5: to well portray themselves as part of some kind of 601 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 5: solution being greener than other oil companies. Again, coming back 602 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 5: to this focus on emission that really offers an opt 603 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 5: out in or an opt in to continue to produce 604 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 5: fossil fuels. 605 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 4: Perhaps, Yeah, I mean going to the chapter and the 606 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 4: time frame we're talking about here. Just before Paris, the 607 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 4: oil industry, many big oil companies form the Oil and 608 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 4: Gas Climate Initiative, the OGCI, and they you know, it's 609 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 4: a total pr effort, but they form a new trade 610 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 4: association internationally to help to solve climate change. On its face, 611 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 4: and you know, it includes a lot of happy talk 612 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 4: about natural gas as a cleaner form of energy and 613 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 4: how it's a bridge fuel, and then it talks they 614 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 4: talk about carbon capture a lot, and they are trying 615 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 4: to get a seat at the table. 616 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 3: They effectively do. 617 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 4: Initially excellent and Chevron did not join that, and eventually 618 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,919 Speaker 4: they've realized that's the way to go. But it's again 619 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 4: having credibility, needing to look like they are part of 620 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 4: the solution is the whole game, to not look like 621 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 4: an obstruction, to look like they care too. That's really 622 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 4: what they That's what they say in they're advertising, by 623 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 4: the way, we care. But it's really important, and they 624 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 4: also have us. All hostage is the other truth, right, 625 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 4: All governments of the world are hostage to the oil 626 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 4: industry at some level, and whether as a producer or 627 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 4: a consumer, they can use this economic blackmail anywhere anytime. 628 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 7: Okay, Christopher, I have a history question for you. I 629 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 7: want to talk about a little bit of the history 630 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 7: of just, you know, any kind of efforts to a 631 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 7: dress environmental problems at an international level in general, and 632 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 7: how the industry gets involved right from the beginning. So 633 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 7: you talk about this in the chapter of pulling to 634 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 7: the other of efforts through the International Chamber, and then 635 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 7: how the industry deals with the Brutland Commission and the 636 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 7: formation of IPKA and all of this stuff, which I 637 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 7: find really interesting, and I'm sorry to distill it all 638 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 7: down to just one question, but I can I talk 639 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 7: a little bit about that period of the early seventies 640 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 7: to the early nineties and how they ingratiate themselves into 641 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 7: these international efforts. 642 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's and you have also written about this, 643 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 5: I know, but I think it's such an important part 644 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 5: for understanding this idea of co option, that they were 645 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 5: there from the start, As you say, old men like 646 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,760 Speaker 5: Marris Strong was part of we're sharing the Stockholm conference 647 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy two. And actually what some scholars have 648 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 5: shown that the industry position was actually sort of a 649 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 5: sort of after competence, that these people we're seen as 650 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 5: people that could well do stuff, make things happen. So 651 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 5: oil industry was already in Stockholm and in later conferences. 652 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 5: Part of the discussion about how well basically how we 653 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 5: understand sustainability or sustainable development, and particularly in this part 654 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 5: that Ankle Symbticus has contributed to a lot and also 655 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 5: written about in other parts, is how basically these international 656 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 5: business organizations coordinate, through international Chamber of Commerce and other 657 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 5: venues like and conferences and such basically to come up 658 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 5: with their own position, to come up whe their position 659 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 5: or already made answer that they could actually use in 660 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:55,399 Speaker 5: discussions about central concepts like sustainable development or precautionary principles 661 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 5: or those kind of important topics throughout sort of nine 662 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,399 Speaker 5: eighties and ninety nineties. But if they're part of that 663 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 5: discussion up until maybe the ninety nineties, something clearly changes 664 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:14,720 Speaker 5: after the establishment of IPCC, and yeah, that climate change 665 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 5: really becomes more of a salient issue, but yeah, a 666 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 5: more important issue in the nineteen nineties, and that's when 667 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 5: we see this more aggressive push against any type of 668 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 5: climate action. So I think it's important to have in 669 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 5: mind that they were there from the start, and they 670 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 5: have in all of these organizations from the start. 671 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 7: The Paris Agreement comes up, of course a lot throughout 672 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 7: this whole book and in this chapter, and I do 673 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 7: feel like this thing has happened where it's pointed to, 674 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 7: is this big success, But in some ways it seems 675 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 7: like a real win for industry as well. So I'm 676 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 7: going to throw that thorny question at you. Who is 677 00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 7: Paris a win for? 678 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 3: If anyone, it's pretty grim. 679 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 4: I mean, I think that goes back to that quote 680 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 4: at the top that no government really still wants to 681 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,839 Speaker 4: commit to anything that you know everybody else isn't doing. 682 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 4: There's so much selfishness embodied in the Framework Convention or 683 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,279 Speaker 4: it'll never leave. It's not it's also part of it, 684 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 4: but it will never leave. And the industry knows. The 685 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 4: industry knows they can prey on that. So to have 686 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 4: an agreement that relies on government pledges that have to 687 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 4: be met by the governments takes the burden off of 688 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 4: the industry really, because it's then the government's fault if 689 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 4: they don't meet the pledge, and they know that. And 690 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 4: also pretty much every pledge included magical solutions like carbon 691 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 4: capture as part of the pledge, so they kind of 692 00:45:54,520 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 4: built their survival into the UK Pledge, the US Pledge, 693 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 4: other big government policies to sort of show or try 694 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 4: to make an oil future inevitable. 695 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,959 Speaker 3: And the main thing they want there is. 696 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 4: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, we care, but you're not 697 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 4: going to turn off oil and gas tomorrow, right, And 698 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 4: then they haven't yeah, and the government has to say, well, yes, 699 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 4: of course, we're reasonable, we're not going to turn it 700 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 4: off tomorrow, and then you buy time and then you 701 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,799 Speaker 4: have a way out, and by the time we get 702 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,799 Speaker 4: back to another agreement, all those other politicians are dead 703 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 4: and buried and they start again with denial and that's 704 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 4: pretty grim. 705 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 3: But that is the best they could do. I think 706 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen they probably if you talk to. 707 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 4: Someone like the Obama administration or Al Gore even they 708 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 4: would say, we got the best we could out of 709 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 4: that moment. And there's some very smart, practical people who 710 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 4: try to push the international agreements as hard as they 711 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 4: can and get what they can. But it's a tough 712 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 4: sport because you're up against a mountain of resistance. 713 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 7: So you say at the end of the chapter, if 714 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 7: far right and authoritarian politics continue to gain hold, this 715 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 7: trend may herald a new form of denial and obstruction 716 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 7: that is not passive or opaque, but blatantly refuses to 717 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,879 Speaker 7: comply with the scientific warnings about climate change. I think 718 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 7: we're there in the US. So where are you seeing 719 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 7: this turn up? And what are you sort of anticipating 720 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 7: to see in the next couple of years. 721 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 6: Well, it's funny because when we had that prediction at 722 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 6: the end of our chapter, it did feel like a 723 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 6: little bit like edgy or like looking out a little 724 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 6: bit to include something like that. And now, of course, 725 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 6: like hardcore climate denial is the mainstream in the US, 726 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 6: and of former fracking executive is the head of the 727 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 6: Department of Energy, and he commissioned climate deniers active during 728 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,760 Speaker 6: the heyday of denial in the nineties to come back 729 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 6: and write a report saying that humans may not be 730 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,439 Speaker 6: the primary cause of global temperatureize. And now the Trump 731 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 6: administration is using that to demolish US climate policy and 732 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 6: deregulate oil and gas. So we in the US at 733 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 6: least we're fully there. But I think versions of this 734 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 6: are kind of like echoing out across the world. In 735 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 6: the UK, Nigel Farage and Reform have like fully gone 736 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 6: in on climate denial. There's like slightly more subtle forms 737 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:45,880 Speaker 6: of it in Canada and the big like Tarzans producing areas, 738 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 6: and so I think it shows that like whatever the 739 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 6: mainstream political context is will determine how the oil and 740 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 6: gas industry is going to react, and the big companies 741 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 6: haven't so far are fully jumped back into the climate 742 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 6: denial mode. But it's this has shifted the whole center 743 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 6: of gravity in terms of how these companies are going 744 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 6: to react to what's going on in politics. 745 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,800 Speaker 5: I think also one important context for this is basically 746 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 5: Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the geopolitic, like the political 747 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 5: concerns that followed after that in terms of energy policy, 748 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 5: that made both this well refusal or denial, but also 749 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 5: a very mainstreaming of the economic scare tactics that basically 750 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,720 Speaker 5: open up for this kind of denial that we are 751 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 5: we have other priorities, we have other things that we 752 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 5: need to think about right now, so we cannot deal 753 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 5: with this messy topic of climate change, your climate action. 754 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,399 Speaker 5: So I think that really shifted the balance. And in Sweden, well, 755 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 5: I mean the Sweden, the far right Sweden Democrats have 756 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 5: been sort of the closest allies to the more denialist 757 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 5: groups from well basically twenty tens. But yeah, now it's 758 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 5: their policies that dictates much of what is happening today.