1
00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,400
Speaker 1: How do two little girls get abducted and murdered basically

2
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 1: in broad delight? And why have years passed and the

3
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: case is still unsolved even though we believe the perp,

4
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:30,160
Speaker 1: the killer is caught not only by camera but by audio.

5
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. And now the victims

6
00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: families are asking why crime stories With Nancy Grace, I'm

7
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,120
Speaker 1: talking about two beautiful little girls that are abducted and

8
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 1: murdered in Delphi. I mean it, see Grace, this is

9
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 1: crime stories. Let's start by hearing from Libby's grandma what happened?

10
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 1: Tell me that day from the time they got there

11
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 1: for dinner. Well, they went upstairs. Of course, Abbey come

12
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 1: bringing in a big old tote of paint. Yeah, they

13
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 1: were gonna paint. Of course Libby's room wh nearly as

14
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,679
Speaker 1: organized as Abbey's her stuffs everywhere still is um. He

15
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,280
Speaker 1: walked through and you find some paint here, and you

16
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,920
Speaker 1: find some paint there, and all of our other stuff.

17
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,600
Speaker 1: So they went upstairs, and of course, you know how

18
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 1: kids do, They take lots of selfies and videos, and

19
00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,840
Speaker 1: so we know what they were doing that night because

20
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 1: Libby did some videos and of Abby there painting and

21
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 1: we there is there is a canvas there of where

22
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 1: they started a new painting, said chocolate. Imagine that I

23
00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 1: was right. I can't remember, like there was something wrong

24
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,520
Speaker 1: with one of the letters. That was. So they they

25
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 1: were up in the room doing their their thing, and

26
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 1: they of course they're up half the night. Girl stuff

27
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 1: girls talking to them. Whatever you're hearing Grandma Becky Patty

28
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,799
Speaker 1: speaking to me at crime con in a live podcast

29
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 1: in an effort to help solve the murders of Libby

30
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 1: and Abigail. But guess what, they're not solved. We want justice.

31
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 1: I mean, we have who we believe to be the

32
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: killer on camera and on audio. I guarantee you there's

33
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,160
Speaker 1: gonna be DNA at that crime seat. So where's the purp?

34
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to break it down

35
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,639
Speaker 1: and put it back together again. Crimline dot Com investigative

36
00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:01,760
Speaker 1: reporter Alexis Terreschuk joining US professors Jacksonville State University and

37
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,880
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan,

38
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,559
Speaker 1: the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute,

39
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 1: and colleague Cheryl McCollum. Psychologists joining me out of New York.

40
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 1: Karen Stark at Karen Stark dot com, judge and trial lawyer,

41
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,400
Speaker 1: Court TV anchor Ashley Wilcott, and special guests joining me

42
00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 1: now Libby's sister Kelsey German. Kelsey, let me just start

43
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 1: with you. I don't believe two or three days passed

44
00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: by that I don't think about Libby and Abigail Kelsey.

45
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 1: When you think of them, what goes through your mind?

46
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,839
Speaker 1: Collision of thoughts? I'm sure. Yeah. When I think of them,

47
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: I try to think of all the good memories and

48
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 1: not the bad ones. But most of the time I'm

49
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,600
Speaker 1: just trying to rerect my brain thinking about who could

50
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,680
Speaker 1: possibly do something like this in such a small town.

51
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: So I spend a lot of time just thinking about

52
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,000
Speaker 1: all the good memories I have with both of them.

53
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 1: You know. I do that too with my fiance, who,

54
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,839
Speaker 1: as you know, was murdered just before our wedding, and

55
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 1: my dad, who passed away recently. I think of all

56
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,680
Speaker 1: the good things. Once in a while, the thoughts of

57
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:32,680
Speaker 1: their death or funeral invade my happy thoughts, and I

58
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 1: push it away because I don't want to think about that.

59
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 1: When those thoughts do come to you, Kelsey German, what

60
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,919
Speaker 1: do you think um. Usually during that time I do

61
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 1: try to push them away, but I also I also

62
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 1: go to my therapist pretty quickly when those come, because

63
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: when those come, I usually end up having some really

64
00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,160
Speaker 1: bad nightmares at the end of the night. And so

65
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 1: so usually during that you have really bad nightmares, You

66
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:07,720
Speaker 1: have really bad nightmares. What do you dream? I still

67
00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,599
Speaker 1: have those nightmares about Keith, my fiance still to this day.

68
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 1: What is your dream, Kelsey. I'm very curious. There's a

69
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:22,599
Speaker 1: lot of times I'll dream about being in the woods

70
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 1: with them that day and crossing the bridge and trying

71
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,560
Speaker 1: to trying to help them, but I can't get to them,

72
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: and I'll sometimes I'll see his face, or sometimes it'll

73
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,599
Speaker 1: just be a blurry vision of him coming towards me.

74
00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,359
Speaker 1: It just kind of depends on the thoughts that I

75
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,479
Speaker 1: have before. Then. You know, that's very similar to the

76
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,599
Speaker 1: dream I often have still about Keith. I dream that

77
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 1: I know where he is and I have an address.

78
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:56,839
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend it's forty three Kelsey German Road, and

79
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking and it's getting dark, and I hear voices

80
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,479
Speaker 1: and I think it's him, and I get to forty

81
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 1: one forty two and it skips to forty four, the

82
00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 1: street address. I'm like, whoa, WHOA, Where's forty three? And

83
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 1: I cut down an alley and then another alley, and

84
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm looking and it's I can hear their voices, but

85
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 1: I can't find him. Dreams like that. I know our

86
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 1: shrink today, Who's awesome. Karen Start would say, it's not

87
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,480
Speaker 1: good to repress memories or push them away from your

88
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,080
Speaker 1: mind when they come. But you know, sometimes life is

89
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,760
Speaker 1: just easier that way, not to think of the painful thing.

90
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,360
Speaker 1: You know. I don't believe she would have these nightmares

91
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 1: as much, Cheryl McCollum if we had an answer, because

92
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 1: if you noticed Libby's liberty, Libby's sister said a lot

93
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,360
Speaker 1: of times, his face, the perps face is blurry. You

94
00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,400
Speaker 1: know why, because we don't know who he is, because

95
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: he hasn't been caught. Cheryl McCallum, what's the problem that's

96
00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,120
Speaker 1: a part of this case, Nancy, that it's done me

97
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 1: for over three years. We've got him on video, got

98
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 1: his boy and right now I want to kind of

99
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 1: concentrate a little bit on his accent, his accuate eye.

100
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 1: Get messed this all the time about his accent, right

101
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 1: he says, guys down the hill. But if you listen

102
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,280
Speaker 1: to how he's talking, he's controlled. He's not screaming, he

103
00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: doesn't grit his teeth. He's just given a directive. And

104
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,800
Speaker 1: that directive tells you he's got a planned spot. This

105
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:39,720
Speaker 1: was a planned crum. This was a controlled person who

106
00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,280
Speaker 1: did this deliberately. Okay, does that help me find him?

107
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,559
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'll have to analyze what you just said.

108
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,400
Speaker 1: He just heard Becky at Patty saying the girls spent

109
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 1: their night before painting and talking and laughing and taking

110
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 1: incessant videos. I can just imagine that. Take listen to

111
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,880
Speaker 1: more of what Becky tells me. They slept in and

112
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 1: they got up, but I don't know. It's nine thirty,

113
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 1: ten o'clock and they had pancakes for breakfast brunch and uh,

114
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: and they came out and said, we want something to do. Well,

115
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,520
Speaker 1: my my office is at home. And I said, dreaded words,

116
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 1: what can we do? And I said, you know what,

117
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 1: I got some files and need to be filed. You

118
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,920
Speaker 1: want to make some money? Bet they were. They were

119
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,120
Speaker 1: out there working away. And especially if you said I'll

120
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,320
Speaker 1: take a shopping you know you do this for me,

121
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: I'll take a shopping. So they were out there and Kelsey,

122
00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,120
Speaker 1: Libby's sister, come out and said, Hey, I'm gonna stop

123
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 1: by a friend's house for a little bit and then

124
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 1: I have to be at work for Libby. That's all

125
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,840
Speaker 1: it took. She jumped up and said, hey, because it

126
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,520
Speaker 1: was a beautiful day. It was a you know, it

127
00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,240
Speaker 1: was about action. Drop was hey we she and I said, well,

128
00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 1: what about this filing? OK, we'll do it later. I

129
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 1: promise we'll do it later. So I said, well that's fine.

130
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: She said, can Kelsey drop us off at the trails?

131
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,680
Speaker 1: And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy. You're going

132
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,840
Speaker 1: to have to get a ride home. Guys, you are

133
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: hearing the grandmother, Liberty's grandmother, Libby Baky Patty telling me

134
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,320
Speaker 1: about the last day that Liberty and Abigail were saying

135
00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:42,400
Speaker 1: alive crime stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about

136
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:49,479
Speaker 1: the abduction and murder of two precious little girls, basically

137
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,559
Speaker 1: in broad daylight, and why the family members are still

138
00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: having nightmares to this day with a vague face approaching

139
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,280
Speaker 1: them in the woods because we don't have the face.

140
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:07,640
Speaker 1: Nobody's behind bars for these heinous murders of two little girls.

141
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 1: You just heard Becky describing to me how the two

142
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,439
Speaker 1: girls were filing for some extra money her files, and

143
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,400
Speaker 1: the moment they got a chance, they decided to go

144
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,560
Speaker 1: to the park, to the walking trail and said, hey,

145
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,440
Speaker 1: we'll do the files later. When my daughter Lucy says

146
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: that I'll do it later, we say you'll do it never,

147
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,160
Speaker 1: because that's what that means. But take a listen to

148
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 1: what we learned. Then. When did you realize something was

149
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 1: not right at all? Well, our whole family was out

150
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,080
Speaker 1: there looking. We all left. Tara, my daughter went straight

151
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,120
Speaker 1: over there. Derek was there. My other son come pulling

152
00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 1: in as I was leaving, and he said, what are

153
00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: you doing. I said, we're gonna go look for the girl.

154
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: So he jumped in the car with me. We drove.

155
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: If if they would have decided to walk home, we

156
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 1: drove both directions that they would have gone both routes.

157
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,959
Speaker 1: We got there. We had six cars there. We were

158
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:18,240
Speaker 1: taking over everything. We split up. We walked all the trails.

159
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,439
Speaker 1: Um Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge. They went.

160
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,200
Speaker 1: They went across and up to the road and up

161
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,640
Speaker 1: to the houses up there were the sheriffs there yet

162
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 1: not yet by this time it was a little after

163
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: five as they getting dark. Now not yet, it wasn't,

164
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 1: but I knew it was going And I was on

165
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 1: the phone most of the time with AT and T

166
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 1: trying to get them to ping her phone. And they won't.

167
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 1: They won't do it. M Can you imagine Mom in

168
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 1: this case, Grandma begging AT and T please ping my

169
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:55,000
Speaker 1: girl's phone, and they refused to do it. Joining me,

170
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 1: Kelsey Germany Thissus, Libby's sister, Karen Start, New York psychologist

171
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,000
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, colk Reshorts Institute, Joe Scott Morgan Forensics, and

172
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 1: Alexis Terreschik joining me right now, Crime Online dot Com

173
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,800
Speaker 1: investigative reporter. Also with me, Ashley Wilcot, Court TV anchor

174
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 1: Alexis The reserve, the park, it's more of a wooded

175
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 1: area with a long hiking trail. Tell me about that

176
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,480
Speaker 1: trestle bridge, the Momon Bridge. It's huge. It's a huge,

177
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 1: old wooden bridge. It's not covered. It's just a regular

178
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 1: wooden bridge with wooden planks like looks like almost blogs.

179
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 1: And it's just in the middle of this park where

180
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,680
Speaker 1: everybody goes. This is a regular place families take their kids. Girls,

181
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 1: you're fine with your teenagers, Well you were fine back

182
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen with your teenagers going there to hang out.

183
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 1: And so the girls were there playing. It's a deserted

184
00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:00,960
Speaker 1: area because it was February. It's cold, it's and it's

185
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,319
Speaker 1: so the girls are there. It's wide open. There are

186
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,439
Speaker 1: so many pictures of the here. And you know what,

187
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: because these girls are modern day teenagers, they were snapping pictures,

188
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 1: taking video, putting it on social media, putting it on

189
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 1: videos of each other on Snapchat for their entire trips.

190
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,080
Speaker 1: So the second they stopped communicating with each other and

191
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: with their families, that's when everybody knew that something was

192
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,400
Speaker 1: wrong in this tranquil area too. Ashley Wilcott, Court TV anchor,

193
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 1: judge and trial lawyer. Ashley, we have gone over and

194
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,920
Speaker 1: over the trail. Tell me what you observed, all right,

195
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,199
Speaker 1: So I was there in March and we walk the trail.

196
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: First of all, it's beautiful. The trail's kind of up

197
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,440
Speaker 1: so you can see down and you can see the

198
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 1: Highway from different pieces of it. And then you get

199
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 1: to this trustled bridge and let me suggest this. It

200
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 1: is so gorgeous. I can see why everybody in the

201
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 1: community uses this trail. But Nancy, here's what bothers me.

202
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,199
Speaker 1: I think there's such a comfort level there before this happened,

203
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,880
Speaker 1: the whole community goes there. The fact that she took

204
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,080
Speaker 1: this recording. I do not believe that she knows this

205
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 1: person at all. I believe that they were surprised. They

206
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,120
Speaker 1: didn't know who it was, but their little spider sense

207
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,840
Speaker 1: said something's wrong and we're going to video this now.

208
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,000
Speaker 1: The other thing about this trail is, you know, the

209
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 1: trail starts by the interstate where you walk over that

210
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 1: and then walk the trail, and there's another entrance by

211
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 1: a house where these two girls entered the trail. So

212
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 1: they walk by this house, they come in a side trail,

213
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 1: take the main trail to the railroad. So my point is,

214
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,360
Speaker 1: what's amazing. It's what Cheryl McCullum said. There are people around,

215
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,320
Speaker 1: there's a house where they entered the trail. This is

216
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 1: a community. They have a video. Nobody saw anything, nobody

217
00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,960
Speaker 1: heard anything. This is just so disturbing to me. To

218
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:06,640
Speaker 1: Kelsey German, this is Liberty Libby's sister. You drop them off.

219
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,280
Speaker 1: Question to you, Is this a place where other people

220
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: were out jogging and walking or were they seemingly all alone? Yeah? Absolutely.

221
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 1: I don't know that I saw anybody at the time,

222
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,080
Speaker 1: but I'd known throughout the day that there were people

223
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 1: there all day, people my age and people even younger.

224
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 1: We're out there that day. I'm just hanging out and

225
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: enjoying the warm weather of that day. And you can

226
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,240
Speaker 1: hardly go to a park or a playground or a

227
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: trail like this and not see people there, which makes

228
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 1: it even more confounding that nobody notice this guy. And

229
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,160
Speaker 1: that leads me to my next question to Liberty's sister Kelsey.

230
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 1: Why would they have taken a video of this guy

231
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 1: approaching them on that trustle bridge. True, they took videos

232
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 1: of everything, but typically of the doing selfies or doing

233
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 1: funny TikTok's or something like that. Why do you believe

234
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 1: they would have taken that video of this man approaching

235
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 1: them and you could go to crime online and see

236
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,280
Speaker 1: him just as clearly as I can. Why what would

237
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 1: lead them to video or photograph a complete stranger? Kelsey?

238
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 1: I think they were worried. I think they were a

239
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 1: little creeped out by this person. That was behind them,

240
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,400
Speaker 1: and they were just going to take this video and

241
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 1: bring him home and show us and say, hey, look

242
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 1: at this really creepy guy that was behind us on

243
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,360
Speaker 1: the trails today. Why do you say he was behind them? Well,

244
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,360
Speaker 1: the picture of Abby was towards the end of the bridge,

245
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,320
Speaker 1: and it looks like the guys coming towards them, So

246
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 1: I would say he's behind them, or they're walking towards him,

247
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,920
Speaker 1: I guess, you know. And I'm so glad you said that, Kelsey,

248
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,720
Speaker 1: because in my mind, the way I looked at the

249
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 1: photo of who I believed to be the killer, I

250
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 1: thought they were coming from one end of the bridge

251
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 1: and he was coming from the other end. But you

252
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,960
Speaker 1: just brought up that you believed he had been behind them,

253
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,560
Speaker 1: and that you think they got afraid, creeped out and

254
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,919
Speaker 1: they took a video. You know what, I'm very curious about, Kelsey,

255
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 1: the time of the picture or video of him coming

256
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 1: toward them. How close in time was it that one

257
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 1: of the girls thought to record him saying go down

258
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,399
Speaker 1: here and strikeing them to go down into the woods

259
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,600
Speaker 1: beside the bridge. How close were those two things. I

260
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 1: have no idea. I know that the picture was taking

261
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 1: it like two or seven, but I don't think there

262
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 1: was a timestamp on the interesting. Interesting, So when they're

263
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 1: getting his voice telling them, directing them, ordering them to

264
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,879
Speaker 1: go down the side of the bridge to the wood,

265
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 1: you don't know what time that was, correct, I do

266
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 1: not too special guests joining me now Liberty's grandmother, who

267
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: I consider to be a friend, who joined us at

268
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 1: crime con Becky, Patty Becky, thank you for being with us.

269
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting us. Becky. You know I told

270
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: you when I saw you in person, I'm never letting

271
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 1: go of this case until it's solved, until I see

272
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 1: it all the way through the appellate route after the conviction,

273
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 1: and I know this guy is behind bars. Crime Stories

274
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, we are talking about the disappearance, the kidnap,

275
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 1: and the murders of two gorgeous girls in Delphi, Abby

276
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 1: and Libby Becky. I was just asking Kelsey a question,

277
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 1: an evidentiary question. You may know the answer from the

278
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 1: time the girls took the picture or video of the

279
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,639
Speaker 1: killer who I believe to be the killer coming toward

280
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: them on that Trustle Bridge. Guys, look at it at

281
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: crime A line. You can see the picture. That was

282
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 1: at two o seven. How soon after that did they

283
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 1: record his voice? Do you know, Becky? No, I do

284
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 1: not know a time, but I do know that it

285
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,120
Speaker 1: happened at the end of the bridge. So I believe

286
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:39,719
Speaker 1: that Libby felt trapped and wanted to do something because

287
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 1: the trails end at the end of the bridge, so

288
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:44,679
Speaker 1: she knew she was at the end of where they

289
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 1: were supposed to be. I wonder why she decided to

290
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: take that video and record him what I've heard it

291
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: a million times, But Becky, what is he telling the

292
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 1: girls to do in the video? He told them to

293
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: go down the hill? Why do you think they and

294
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 1: along with that, Becky, I feel that he took control

295
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 1: of them right there. What do you mean do you

296
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 1: think you had a weapon? I believe there was something.

297
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: Libby wouldn't if somebody just came up to her and said, hey,

298
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: go down the hill, authority figure or not, she would

299
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 1: not unless there was something that prompted her. So yes,

300
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:25,159
Speaker 1: I believe that he somehow took control of them about

301
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 1: the time he told them to go down the hill.

302
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm curious if they were taking pictures of other people

303
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 1: in the park that day or just to him because typically,

304
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, this is not what I see my

305
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 1: twins doing. They're twelve about their age, and they take videos, selfies,

306
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 1: they make TikTok stuff like that, but they don't just

307
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 1: take pictures of random people they see at a playground

308
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: or a part. I've never seen them do that. There

309
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 1: was something about this guy that made them video him.

310
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 1: And the reason I'm asking the time to Joseph Scott Morgan,

311
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: forensics expert an author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

312
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,719
Speaker 1: is because I think this is the guy. And if

313
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 1: they took the picture, let's just say, thirty seconds later

314
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: you hear his voice and it's captured on audio, then

315
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: that's him. I'm looking at the correlation between the photo

316
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 1: and the audio of him ordering them off the bridge

317
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 1: and down into the woods. Get it? Yeah? Completely? Who else?

318
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: You know, who else could it be other than this

319
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 1: person that they have taken the time to videograph right here.

320
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 1: And then we have this voice, this voice that's haunted

321
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 1: us for you know, these past three years, over and

322
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 1: over again, giving them a specific directive. And that's very important,

323
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 1: you know, you talk about, you know, how this individual

324
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 1: would have taken charge and listen, there's no nonsense in

325
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: his voice. You know, he is giving them a specific

326
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 1: directive and he's giving them a specific location to go to.

327
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: So I would think that this individual was menacing in

328
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: some way. I don't know if he was holding a weapon,

329
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: if he displayed a weapon. I don't know that he's

330
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,719
Speaker 1: necessarily a large guy. But you know, when you're a

331
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: young teenage girl, grown men are going to appear well,

332
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 1: wait right right there. That's something I don't understand because

333
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: it's very simple, Cheryl McCollum. Is it not, director a

334
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 1: cold case research instit you to measure the handrail on

335
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: the bridge as he's walking beside it and extrapolate down

336
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: to the inch as to how tall the guy is,

337
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: Is it not, Cheryl McCollum. That's how you do it.

338
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 1: You take the measurement of a known affixed object such

339
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 1: as a car tire or a car, or a bridge

340
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: or a tree or whatever's there, and you measure it.

341
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: Then you can extrapolate and determine almost to the inch

342
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 1: the height of this guy. Cheryl McCollum, You can do that,

343
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 1: may see, But the reality is, we've got a freaking video,

344
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: We've got him walking we've got his clothes, we've got

345
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: his voice. How many cases have you and I worked

346
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 1: together that we had a video of the perpetrator, that

347
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: we had his voice and the cadence of his walk

348
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: in the drift zero zero? You know, I'm going to

349
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: throw that to good point. I'm gonna throw that to

350
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: Libby's grandma, Becky Patty after hearing the voice, seeing the video,

351
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: what is the working theory as to who this guy is?

352
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: What are police telling you? We've gone through three years,

353
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: We've got his picture, we've got his video, we've got

354
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: his voice, and I guarantee, I don't know if the

355
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: Cause have told you this or not, but I bet

356
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: they've got his DNA. What were they saying the guys

357
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: from based on his accent? Let's see, you know, we

358
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: don't get a lot more information than what you guys do.

359
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: They haven't, and I don't know that they want to

360
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: give some of that out. Hi. They do continually say

361
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: that he is at least has local ties, so that

362
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: would tell me his accent would probably be from around here.

363
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: That is a very good deduction. Agree or disagree, Cheryl McCollums.

364
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: I actually reached out to a linguist expert that works

365
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: for Disney, and what he does is he works with

366
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 1: actors what they want to take on a certain accent

367
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: for a movie. And he didn't know anything about the case.

368
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: This was two and a half years ago and I

369
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: sent him just the clip of Down the Hill. He

370
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: wrote me back almost immediately and said, rural Indiana. Wow, Cheryl,

371
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: by the way, that was brilliant. Okay, brilliant And based

372
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: on what you're saying, what the Disney expert is saying,

373
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: and what Becky Patty's telling me, I agree. So I

374
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: mean I don't get it. Alexis Terrestia Crime online dot

375
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. We know he's a local rural Indiana.

376
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: We know what he looks like. We've got his voice. Alexis,

377
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: do you know if there's any DNA? I do not

378
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 1: know specifically if there is DNA. But I have spoken

379
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: with the sheriff Intown many, many, many times, and he

380
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: told me that say whatever evidence they had, and again,

381
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 1: they will be there, as Louie's grandmother said, there they hold.

382
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: It's really close to them and they don't share it

383
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: too much. They don't want to kip off the killer.

384
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: What about the killer, chip off the killer. Today, that

385
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: cow is out of the barn, the ship has sailed.

386
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: I don't understand that. Is that some police technique Cheryl McComb.

387
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: I mean I've handled cases where we did not release

388
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: information because it was critical at not get out at

389
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: that moment. But I mean it's been three years. I

390
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: think at this point all bet they're off. I think

391
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: they should release as much as the video as they can,

392
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: as much as his you know pH you know, phrasing

393
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: to them as they can. He had to have touched them.

394
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: We know that. So touch DNA has got to be

395
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: on the clothing. This guy's hiding, playing sight, he is

396
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: watching the media. He's probably gonna listen to this. So

397
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: again we need to tell him, booze, we got your DNA.

398
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: We're coming. We're not going to stop. The police get

399
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: three thousand till a week. I mean, come on, look

400
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: like I don't be doing that. May all be true,

401
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: but nothing is happening that we know of. To Becky

402
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: Patty Libby's grandmother, Becky, A police told you that they've

403
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: been able to retrieve DNA and a couple of they

404
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: have admitted even in a couple of interviews that there

405
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: is DNA and now adds to how much or what

406
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 1: kind or whatever. They have not been specific with us,

407
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 1: and there may be a reason for that. But we

408
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 1: do know that there is DNA, and I do know

409
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: toab LESSI and B, which is our county sheriff did

410
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: an interview with our local paper last week or the

411
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: week before and said that there's a partial fingerprint. Okay,

412
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: I'm torn between happiness that we've got a little bit

413
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: of evidence there and I'm confounded because if there is

414
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: DNA and there's a part sho fingerprint, I mean, help me,

415
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: what's happening Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking

416
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: about the murders. There's no nice way to say it.

417
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: Of two little girls, Abby and Libby Abby Williams, Abigail

418
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: Libby German Liberty, just thirteen and fourteen. They go out

419
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: to walk a populated, popular trail and they end up dead.

420
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: Can you imagine Becky Patty running through the park that

421
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 1: night with all the family trying to find them as

422
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: it's getting dark, begging at and t to release the

423
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: peeing records, the cell phone records can't get the info

424
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: the shot. When they learn their girls. They were just

425
00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 1: upstairs playing and painting that they're dead at three years

426
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: pass and no resolution. Back to you, just Scott jumping on.

427
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: What were you saying? Yeah, just like Becky had mentioned

428
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: a moment ago. I'm first off, I'm shocked I haven't

429
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: heard this bit of information. There's no reason I would

430
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: Becky's part of the family that they had recovered a

431
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: partial print. However, this is the caveat. Maybe there is

432
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: DNA and I've heard a couple of these law enforcement

433
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: types that are involved in this case state that at

434
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: least peripherally, and now we have a partial fingerprint. Here

435
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: is the rub when it all comes down to it.

436
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: We can develop a fingerprint, we can develop a DNA

437
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: profile perhaps, but if there is nobody, no one to

438
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: compare it too, then you're kind of left, you know,

439
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: dangling in the breeze at that point in time. If

440
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: an individual is not in a database, and I believe

441
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: this person has offended before Nancy, but I just don't know,

442
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: maybe just be and maybe a misdemeanor where DNA wasn't

443
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: taken where it may have been in the jurisdiction. But

444
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, you can put it in the ncis the

445
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: National Database database. But I want to reiterate what Joe

446
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: Scott is saying. When you get a fingerprint off a

447
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: crime scene, off clothes, off a body, people go, oh,

448
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: we got a fingerprint, Well, where are you going to

449
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: compare it too? You have to have a known print,

450
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: that's the latent or the discovered print at the scene,

451
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: but without anything to compare it too. They're not in

452
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: the APHIST, the DNA, excuse me, the fingerprint database. And

453
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you're a criminal. You could be like me.

454
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: I was a government servant. My fingerprints are in the database.

455
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: A lot of people are on our program right now

456
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: have fingerprints in the database for many different reasons. Nancy,

457
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: If Nancy I please listen. One of the things I've

458
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: thought about were this case, why were the girls out

459
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: there where they'd been brought there? Why were they why

460
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: were they out of school that day? Well, there's an

461
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: awareness in in this community that school was out that

462
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: particular day. I think that it was a makeup snow

463
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: day or whatever it was. It was actually unseasonably warm.

464
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: We combine that with the knowledge that whoever was involved

465
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 1: in this had a knowledge that kids were probably out

466
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: of school that day. Now, that leads me back to

467
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: another point. I'm not saying that this is the case. However,

468
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: you've got a person that's DNA is not popping up,

469
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: You've got an individual whose prints are not popping up.

470
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: That points me in the direction of age. I'm wondering

471
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: if this person has committed this crime has not quite

472
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: passed that age marker yet where they have hit, you know,

473
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: where their career criminal. Maybe this is their first time out,

474
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: and so that points me to maybe it's a younger

475
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: person as opposed to think about that image, and I

476
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: know that you'll probably talk about that and he the

477
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: newer image that Indiana State Police released is completely different

478
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: than the initial image that came out, And I think

479
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: that is a striking point here. The fact that there's

480
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: nothing on a database and the fact that they change

481
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: the composite image to make this individual look younger. I

482
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: think that it might give us an indication this person

483
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: has maybe not offended at this degree. To this point,

484
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: Karen Start with a New York psychologist at Karen Start

485
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: dot com. Earlier, you heard Kelsey, this is Libby's sister,

486
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: describe the horrible nightmares she endures and very often she's

487
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: the one in the woods, not Abby and Libby, or

488
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: with Abby and Libby, and she sees the coming toward her,

489
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: but the face is vague. Is there a chance if

490
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: this guy's caught, she will see his face and her demons,

491
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: her nightmares will go away? I think, Nancy, it would

492
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: certainly help if she could see his face. Will they

493
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: go away? I think over time, if she keeps work

494
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: on it. She said she has a therapist, and there

495
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: is an awful lot that you could do for a

496
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: traumatic incident like that. But as long as he's out

497
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: there and she's not able to have a visual I

498
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: think that that's exactly what's going to happen. What she's

499
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: thinking about in the daytime, unfortunately, is going to repeat

500
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: at night in one form or another. And by the way,

501
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: you talked about repression, and that's not a good thing,

502
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: and I would agree with you, but sometimes it is

503
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: a defense and after senses are there for a reason.

504
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: There are times, like you said, if having a thought

505
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: about someone that you loved who died, if interfering, you

506
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: want to put it away. But in her case that's

507
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: very hard to do, you know, Kelseye with me right now,

508
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: Liberty's sister. Do you remember dropping them at the trail? Yeah,

509
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: I remember it clear as day. We got to the trail,

510
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: and I remember making sure they both had sweatshirts, and

511
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: they got out of my car, and Libby turned around

512
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: and told me she loved me, and I've told her

513
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: it back, and then I drove away. Do you ever

514
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: relive that I think back on it. Yeah. I sometimes

515
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: wish that I wouldn't have dropped them off. So I

516
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: always think about it and think about how I could

517
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: have done it differently, or if I should have looked

518
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: at something else I was there, or maybe I saw

519
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: something that I'm pushing back into the back of my

520
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: mind and not thinking about now. So I think about

521
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: it often. Have police told you whether the girls were assaulted, Becky, No,

522
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: they haven't told us. They haven't told us. Then I'm

523
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: not sure that I want to know. I mean, I do,

524
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: but I'm afraid to. I hear you, you know, don't

525
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: feel alone? Do you know that to this day, I

526
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: have never been able to bring myself to go back

527
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: to the spot where my fiance was murdered, never gone there.

528
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: I can't. I don't want to see it. I don't

529
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: want it in my head. There's enough there already. So

530
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: I hear you, there's just some things I don't want

531
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: to know, believe it or not. Well, we already, you know,

532
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: like Kelsey said, we already we live a lot of

533
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: that day. Every day it goes through my head, the

534
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: last moment that I saw Livy or stand and they're

535
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: smiling at me, and I think, if only I'd have

536
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: said no. And every day you've you live the different

537
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: possibilities and scenarios of what those girls could have gone through.

538
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: We think of everything possible, So you already have all

539
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 1: these horrors in your mind, so you I don't think

540
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: you want to know for a fact that maybe they

541
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: lived that horror. I hear you. You know in my mind,

542
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: when Keith was murdered, it was just like that, he

543
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: felt no paying bam it. He was alive one minute

544
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: and the next minute he was in heaven. That's how

545
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: I want to think it happened. And I hear you.

546
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,959
Speaker 1: Some days I just don't want to think there's another alternative.

547
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: For all of you listening and watching right now, want

548
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: you please help us get justice. The tipline is eight

549
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: four four four to five nine five to seven eight six,

550
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: repeat eight four four four five nine five seven eight six.

551
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: We wait and pray as justice unfalls. Nancy Gray's Crime Story,

552
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye friend,