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Speaker 1: On Saturday, June fourth, nineteen eighty three, and Chino Hills, California,

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Speaker 1: the Ryan family, Doug Peggy, their children, Jessica and Joshua,

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Speaker 1: as well as their neighbour's son, Christopher Hughes, were violently

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Speaker 1: attacked in the Ryan home. Only eight year old Joshua

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Speaker 1: Ryan survived, and at the hospital he described the perpetrators

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Speaker 1: as three white or Hispanic men. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Cooper, a black man, had recently escaped from a

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Speaker 1: nearby prison and had holed up in a vacant house

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Speaker 1: near the Ryan home. When the police learned of the

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Speaker 1: prison break, they disregarded the witnesses and tips corroborating josh

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Speaker 1: Ryan's description in favor of the theory that one of

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Speaker 1: the prison escapees was responsible, and as pressure mounted to

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Speaker 1: solve the case with an election fast approaching, Kevin Cooper

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Speaker 1: became an easy scapegoat for the sheriff. Under the DA's orders,

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Speaker 1: the crime scene was dismantled and moved to a warehouse,

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Speaker 1: rendering forensic testing us useless. The prosecution's case a trial

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Speaker 1: was riddled with inconsistencies and problematic evidence, but with a

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Speaker 1: poorly prepared defense attorney and hidden or destroyed exculpatory evidence

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Speaker 1: that jury convicted Kevin of the murders and he was

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Speaker 1: sentenced to death. We're joined by Kevin and his attorney

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Speaker 1: Norman Hile, to discuss the status of his case, as

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Speaker 1: well as the proven evidence tampering misconduct by the Sheriff's

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Speaker 1: department and compelling alternate suspects that should have ended any

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Speaker 1: suspicion into Kevin Cooper back in nineteen eighty three. This

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Speaker 1: is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today's episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say this case is as troubling as

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Speaker 1: any case I've ever heard of, and I've been doing

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Speaker 1: this work for a long, long long time. And with

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Speaker 1: me today of course the man himself, Kevin Cooper, who

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Speaker 1: has lived and continues to live through this nightmare, as

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Speaker 1: well as his attorney Norman Hyle of Oric Harrington and Sutcliffe.

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Speaker 1: So Norm, welcome to rafel Conviction. Really glad to have

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Speaker 1: you here. It's great to be here and coming to

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Speaker 1: us from inside the walls of San Quentin, where he

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Speaker 1: remains to this very day. We have Kevin Cooper, Kevin,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry here joining us from where you're at

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Speaker 1: where you never belonged in the first place. We don't

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Speaker 1: belong now, but I'm very honored to have you here

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: This case involves layers and layers of misconduct and incompetence

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Speaker 1: that would be funny if it wasn't so sick. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're going to hear about so many instances in which

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Speaker 1: evidence was either altered, planted, or tampered with that you're

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Speaker 1: going to find it hard to belie leave. But if

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Speaker 1: it wasn't borne out by the evidence, Norman wouldn't risk

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Speaker 1: his career to say it here today on the show.

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Speaker 1: And this case also involves one of the most terrifying

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Speaker 1: crimes I'm going to say in the history not just

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Speaker 1: of California, but of this entire country. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is reminiscent of Charles Manson, the Tate LaBianca murders, and

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Speaker 1: others that have made it into the popular consciousness. And

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Speaker 1: what's even worse, if you can imagine that, is that

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Speaker 1: the three white or Hispanic perpetrators who are actually responsible

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Speaker 1: for this twisted scenario never were brought to justice because

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Speaker 1: the police targeted Kevin Cooper, who is neither white nor Hispanic,

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Speaker 1: but a black man. And there's not three of him,

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Speaker 1: There's only one. And so before I lose my mind here, Kevin,

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Speaker 1: let's go back before all of the circumstances that led

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Speaker 1: to this web of total insanity. I mean, can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about your early life. You were born Richard

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Speaker 1: Goodman in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and then you were adopted by

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Speaker 1: Melvin and Esther Cooper.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct, Yeah, sir, that's correct. Growing up with

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Speaker 2: my adoptive family, it was what it was. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they were a good family. My own issue that I

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Speaker 2: have with them, and basically what my adoptive father was

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Speaker 2: that he was a disciplinarian and he used to violently

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Speaker 2: beat me for things that all kids do. And I

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Speaker 2: couldn't take that beating. My body couldn't take that beating.

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Speaker 2: So over time, as early as seven years old, I

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Speaker 2: was running away from home, and of course, if you

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Speaker 2: run away from home, if you're out on the streets

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Speaker 2: as a child, you have to eat. So I was

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Speaker 2: stealing to eat, you know, and then it's just one.

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Speaker 1: Thing there to another, right, so you're out there, you know,

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Speaker 1: fending for yourself as early as seven years old, which

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Speaker 1: led to a number of run ins with the law,

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Speaker 1: from petty thefts and things like that, to stay, let's

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Speaker 1: face it, clothed and bed and to meet your basic

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Speaker 1: survival needs. And obviously lift is a crime. But when

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Speaker 1: life deals you a hand like you got, you had

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Speaker 1: to do what you did to survive. And importantly, none

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Speaker 1: of it was violent, and none of it makes you

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Speaker 1: a murderer or a candidate for death row.

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Speaker 2: You know, they always trying to find the dead and people, right,

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Speaker 2: they're morally good people and we're more than bad people,

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Speaker 2: especially when you're poor and you're black. I don't apologize

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Speaker 2: for those things I did as a child because I

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Speaker 2: didn't know better. And for a child to teach yourself,

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Speaker 2: what what do you need parents for? My parents didn't

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Speaker 2: teach me. So the people on the street topey how

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Speaker 2: to steal cars, how to get out of the rain,

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Speaker 2: how to get out of the cold. You know, I

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Speaker 2: don't justify it, but I don't apologize for it. And

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Speaker 2: I'll be darned if I'm going to let anybody make

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Speaker 2: me feel bad about it, because that was just my life. Man.

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen eighty two, you picked up a burglary,

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Speaker 1: right and in order to avoid prison, you pretended to

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Speaker 1: be mentally incompetent and unfit to stand trial, which puts

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Speaker 1: you in Mayview State Hospital in Pennsylvania. And at this

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Speaker 1: point you'd been there before because of drugs, and you

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Speaker 1: had noticed that it would be pretty easy to escape from.

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Speaker 1: And here's a key part of the story. While you

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Speaker 1: were there, you picked up a driver's license for a

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Speaker 1: man named David Troutman. And when you escape from the

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Speaker 1: facility and with some help made your way off to California,

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Speaker 1: you passed yourself off as this David Troutman guy, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Because at that time, driver's license didn't have photos on.

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Speaker 2: It was just a name and a data both and

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Speaker 2: your driver's license ID number, but there was no photo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy to think about that, no picture on

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Speaker 1: a driver's license. It seems like a different era entirely,

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Speaker 1: which it was. But anyway, so you're in California and

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Speaker 1: you're doing what you needed to do to survive. What

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Speaker 1: you know how to do is survive, and once again

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Speaker 1: you're arrested for burglary there, but this time as David Troutman,

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Speaker 1: and that leads to your incarceration at the California Institute

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Speaker 1: for Man. Otherwise, notice CIM in Chino, California, again under

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Speaker 1: this alias of David Troutman. So none of this makes

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Speaker 1: you a murderer, but it is really crazy, right, and

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Speaker 1: now the story takes another crazy turn. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: a movie. In June of nineteen eighty three, you escaped

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Speaker 1: from that prison, which happened to be in the area

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Speaker 1: of these absolutely horrendous murders. And from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't even that hard to escape. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: didn't have to be Houdini, right, Yeah, June.

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Speaker 2: Sit in nineteen eighty three, I was walking around in

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Speaker 2: the prison, not in my finish, and I get to

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Speaker 2: this one spot in fear. It was a big asshole

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Speaker 2: in the fish. I didn't even think about it.

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Speaker 1: I was gone, right, And then they searched for several

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Speaker 1: hours and then gave up. Apparently Kevin, of course, now

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Speaker 1: is out, but has no idea where to go, no money,

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Speaker 1: never been in this area before except inside the prison.

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Speaker 1: So he found his way to a bacont house in

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Speaker 1: a residential area and spent two days hiding there before

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Speaker 1: hitchhiking to Mexico on the evening of June fourth. Now

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Speaker 1: it's worth noting, by the way, that in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: three alone, fourteen prisoners escaped from this particular prison. That's insane.

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Speaker 1: So this included, of course Kevin, as well as a

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Speaker 1: guy named Ambloro Nori and Michael Martinez. You both escaped

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Speaker 1: two days after Kevin on June fourth, nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 1: and that's an important date because the murders were getting

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Speaker 1: ready to tell you about took place that very night

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Speaker 1: on June fourth, nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 3: The family who was murdered was Doug and Peggy Ryan

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Speaker 3: and their daughter Jessica, and a HouseGuest Christopher Hughes, who

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Speaker 3: was there by chance that night spending the night, who

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Speaker 3: was a friend of Josh Ryan's, the eight year old

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Speaker 3: boy who survived. The Ryans were very strong people. Doug

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Speaker 3: Ryan was a former military policeman and a chiropractor, and

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Speaker 3: his wife, Peggy was not only a chiropractor, but she

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Speaker 3: trained Arabian horses. However, both of Ryan's and their two

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Speaker 3: children and Christopher Hughes were overwhelmed by three people who

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Speaker 3: used three or four different weapons, and there were at

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Speaker 3: least one hundred and forty four wounds on the victims.

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Speaker 3: The adults, Mister and Missus Ryan were left in a

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Speaker 3: posed position similar to the Tate La Bianca murders, as

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Speaker 3: if to indicate there had been some sort of ritual

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Speaker 3: going on as to how they were killed.

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Speaker 1: Peggy had seventeen hatchet wounds to the face and head

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Speaker 1: and four knife wounds to the chest. Jessica was stabbed

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Speaker 1: forty six times with three different weapons. Douglas suffered thirty

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Speaker 1: seven knife and hatchet wounds and a severed finger, and

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Speaker 1: Christopher had twenty six stab wounds and numerous skull fractures

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Speaker 1: and a severed finger as well.

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Speaker 3: The sole survivor of this mayhem was Josh Ryan, who

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Speaker 3: was eight years old, and he was found the next

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Speaker 3: morning still alive when Christopher Hughes's father came to try

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Speaker 3: to collect Christopher and discovered the victims in the Ryan's

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Speaker 3: master bedroom in their home. Josh Ryan was still alive,

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Speaker 3: although his throat had been cut. They were able to

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Speaker 3: quickly take him to Loma Linda Hospital by helicopter and

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Speaker 3: his life was saved.

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Speaker 1: So this is a really horrifying crime. But then right

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Speaker 1: away it seems like we see the police mishandling this

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Speaker 1: case to an extreme and I'm talking about. Beginning with

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Speaker 1: the initial investigation.

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Speaker 3: The San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department allowed over seventy people

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Speaker 3: to walk through the crime scene during the first twenty

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Speaker 3: four hours that the murders were discovered. The result of

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Speaker 3: that was that most of the evidence was contaminated. What

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Speaker 3: happened next is even more bizarre. The District Attorney for

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Speaker 3: San Bernardino County decided that the best thing to do,

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Speaker 3: perhaps to cover up the way in which the crime

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Speaker 3: scene had been mishandled, was to completely tear down the

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Speaker 3: crime scene, and the walls and the carpets and the

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Speaker 3: furniture and everything was put into a storage facility that

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Speaker 3: did not have air conditioning. And the result of that

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Speaker 3: was that all of the blood evidence that was in

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Speaker 3: what had been taken out of the Ryan bedroom became

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Speaker 3: useless for purposes of trying to do chemical analysis of it.

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Speaker 3: There couldn't be any analysis done of the blood spots

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Speaker 3: and the way in which the bodies had moved, which

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Speaker 3: might have been able to determine how many attackers there were,

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Speaker 3: what snives and hatchets had been used by them, and

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Speaker 3: how the victims had managed to fight back. All of

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Speaker 3: that was lost when the district attorney ordered that the

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Speaker 3: Ryan master bedroom be torn down and taken away.

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Speaker 1: On the fifth, So, the day after the murders, a

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Speaker 1: hatchet was found on the side of a road leading

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Speaker 1: away from the Ryan's house. Forensics tested the hatchet, but

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Speaker 1: they botched that as well, so any evidence from the

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Speaker 1: hatchet was now rendered useless. You don't have to be

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Speaker 1: a criminologist to know that this is a freaking disaster

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Speaker 1: in the making. I mean, it's really sobering to think

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Speaker 1: about the fact that they were willing to go to

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Speaker 1: these extraordinary lengths to cover up the terrible incompetence in

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Speaker 1: a case that should have been the number one priority

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Speaker 1: to be solved. This is so troubling and it's a

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Speaker 1: miracle that Joshua did survive.

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Speaker 3: The reason that we know that there were three white

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Speaker 3: or Mexican males who were the attackers is that josh

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Speaker 3: Ryan was able to tell hospital staff and the Sheriff's

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Speaker 3: department that within a few hours of when he was found.

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Speaker 1: And there were other people that came forward. One neighbor

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Speaker 1: actually reported to investigators having seen three white men driving

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Speaker 1: away from the Ryan home after midnight on the night

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Speaker 1: of the murders. Corroborating Josh Ryan's.

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Speaker 3: Description, Yes, there were two different sightings of the Ryan

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Speaker 3: station wagon speeding away from the Ryan home of the crimes,

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Speaker 3: and the people who saw them saw that there were

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Speaker 3: at least three people in the station wagon. In addition,

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Speaker 3: that same night, a number of people in a local

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Speaker 3: bar very close to the crime scene reported seeing three

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Speaker 3: white men acting strangely in the bar, and late that

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Speaker 3: night one of them came back in and was in

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Speaker 3: coveralls that were covered in blood and in fact, the

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Speaker 3: San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department issued a criminal bulletin on

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Speaker 3: June seventh, which said the suspects were three either white

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Speaker 3: or Mexican males, late teens or early twenties, wearing a

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Speaker 3: white T shirt, a blue short sleeve shirt, a red

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Speaker 3: long sleeve shirt, and Levi's So they had all of

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Speaker 3: this information about who had committed this crime.

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Speaker 1: Then. Seeing this bulletin, a woman named Diana Roper called

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Speaker 1: the sheriff two days later to apport that her boyfriend

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Speaker 1: Lee Furrow had come home get this around three am

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Speaker 1: the night of the murders. To her, he had arrived

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Speaker 1: in an unfamiliar station wagon with some people who stayed

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Speaker 1: in the car. He changed out of his overalls, which

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Speaker 1: he left on the closet floor. He was not wearing

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Speaker 1: the blue T shirt that he had been wearing earlier

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Speaker 1: that day. He left the house about five minutes later

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Speaker 1: and didn't return. From what we understand, he then went

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Speaker 1: on the lamb to San Diego.

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Speaker 3: And she gave to the Sheriff's department a pair of

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Speaker 3: coveralls that were covered in blood that her boyfriend had

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Speaker 3: discarded when he came home about three o'clock in the

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Speaker 3: morning the morning after the murders, and ultimately, because it

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Speaker 3: was inconsistent with prosecuting, Kevin Cooper destroyed them without ever

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Speaker 3: testing them to see whether or not the coveralls had

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Speaker 3: the victim's blood on him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's also this blue T shirt that was covered

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Speaker 1: in blood that a woman found two days after the

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Speaker 1: murder near the Canyon Corral bar near the crime scene. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you remember the blue T shirt from the descriptions,

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Speaker 1: Diana Roper also mentioned Lee Burrow missing his own blue

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Speaker 1: T shirt that he had been wearing earlier that day.

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Speaker 1: So this blue T shirt that was turned in was

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Speaker 1: that ever tested?

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Speaker 3: The sheriff's log reflects that the sheriff's deputy came to

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Speaker 3: where the women had found the shirt and collected the

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Speaker 3: shirt and the short sleeve blue shirt, which fits the

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Speaker 3: description that Josh Ryan gave of one of the assailants

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Speaker 3: disappeared and in fact they now claim that it never existed,

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Speaker 3: even though their own log shows that they got a

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Speaker 3: call about it and that they retrieved them. So they

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Speaker 3: were willing to try to frame Kevin Cooper and to

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Speaker 3: get rid of evidence that might have pointed them to

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Speaker 3: other assailants.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

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Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making

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Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

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Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light

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Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

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Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform,

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Speaker 1: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and

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Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. So there was

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Speaker 1: overwhelming evidence mounting that a group of three white or

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Speaker 1: Hispanic men were responsible. Meanwhile, there's the specter of this

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Speaker 1: prison break. So the police were also following up on

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Speaker 1: the theory that a recent escape bee from CIM might

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Speaker 1: have been responsible, and when CIM officials gave them the

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Speaker 1: info on all of the recent escapees, they found out

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Speaker 1: that one of them, David Troutman will Not wasn't his

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Speaker 1: real name, so as we know, that was Kevin's alias

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Speaker 1: at the time, and so their focus turned away from

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Speaker 1: Diana roper Lee Furrow, the bloody T shirt and coveralls,

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Speaker 1: and all of the other evidence that corroborated Josh Ryan's

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Speaker 1: description of a gang of three white or Hispanic men,

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Speaker 1: and now they just turned to Kevin the lone black.

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Speaker 2: Man com es cecil chill. Anyone who studies this case

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Speaker 2: that one person who weighs one hundred and fifty five pounds,

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Speaker 2: a skinny little kid, cannot murder four people want to

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Speaker 2: kept their murder of.

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Speaker 3: Fifth, the idea that three or four weapons were used,

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Speaker 3: that there were one hundred and forty four wounds, that

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Speaker 3: two adults were overcome. Both mister and Missus Ryan had

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Speaker 3: loaded weapons at their bedside, and neither of them was

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Speaker 3: able to get to those weapons when they were attacked,

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Speaker 3: which clearly shows that they were more than one attacker.

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Speaker 3: The fact that the Sheriff's department changed its story from

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Speaker 3: being three whier Mexican men was that Kevin Cooper was

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Speaker 3: a very convenient target. And at the time, the sheriff

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Speaker 3: for San Bernardino County, a man named Floyd Tidwell, was

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Speaker 3: running for sheriff that fall, and he needed to solve

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Speaker 3: this crime as quickly as possible, and therefore Kevin Cooper

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Speaker 3: became the convenient scapegoat.

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Speaker 1: So now they began to try to find some evidence

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Speaker 1: to support that theory. So they swept the area to

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Speaker 1: Buying where Kevin had been hiding out after his escape,

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Speaker 1: and the owner of that house, Larry Lease, who obviously

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Speaker 1: had not been at home while Kevin was there, he

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Speaker 1: called the police asking them to come by and check

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Speaker 1: out the house.

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Speaker 3: That's correct, and the first time that the Leae house

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Speaker 3: was inspected after the crimes had been discovered, two detectives

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Speaker 3: went into the house from the Sheriff's department. They didn't

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Speaker 3: find anything, and they wrote a report saying they didn't

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Speaker 3: find anything with respect to that might have tied Kevin

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Speaker 3: to the crime. But the next day they went back

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Speaker 3: and suddenly in a room that they had said they

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Speaker 3: before had no evidence in it. There was a green

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Speaker 3: prison jacket button on the floor in the middle of

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Speaker 3: a carpet, and a hatchet sheath. The fact that they

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Speaker 3: were not seen on the first inspection of the house

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Speaker 3: and were seen for the second one says to us

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Speaker 3: that they were planted. The green button, of course, didn't

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Speaker 3: turn out to be consistent with what Kevin Cooper was wearing.

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Speaker 3: There is testimony from a guard who saw Kevin having escaped,

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Speaker 3: who reported that he was in a brown prison jacket,

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Speaker 3: so the green button was clearly planted because the Sheriff's

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Speaker 3: department didn't know what color jacket Kevin was wearing at

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Speaker 3: the time. The hatchet sheath is clearly a hatchet sheaf

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Speaker 3: for a hatchet that was kept at the Least house

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Speaker 3: and that disappeared. The hatchet that was found outside the

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Speaker 3: Ryan home that was one of the murder weapons was

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Speaker 3: a different hatchet with a different color handle. But the

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Speaker 3: prospers Jushon obviously wanted to try to tie Kevin to

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Speaker 3: the crime by planting the hatchet chief that went with

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Speaker 3: the hatchet from the Leice house in order to frame

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Speaker 3: Kevin Cooper.

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Speaker 1: There's literally no end to what they were willing to

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Speaker 1: do in order to make sure that no justice was

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Speaker 1: done in this case. Yeah wow. And while this horrible

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Speaker 1: cover up of this ridiculously botched crime scene and investigation

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Speaker 1: was going on, Kevin had hitchhike to Mexico, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's unaware of this quadruple murder, but he did still

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Speaker 1: escape from prison. So he checked into a hotel in Tijuana,

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Speaker 1: and there he befriended an American couple and he hitched

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Speaker 1: a ride on their boat. He was arrested when they

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Speaker 1: pulled into Pelican Bay, which is near Santa Barbara, and

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Speaker 1: he sat in jail for about two years before even

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Speaker 1: going to trial.

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Speaker 3: So the one piece of evidence that the prosecution relied

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Speaker 3: on Pond was a blood spot on a wall outside

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Speaker 3: the Ryan bedroom, and that blood spot has been the

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Speaker 3: source of dispute ever since. At trial, the Sheriff's Department

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Speaker 3: forensic scientist said that the blood type matched Kevin Cooper's

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Speaker 3: blood type, but when he was cross examined by defense counsel,

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Speaker 3: it became clear that he had botched the test and

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Speaker 3: gotten the wrong blood type to be a match to Kevin,

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Speaker 3: and had changed his notes to make the blood type

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Speaker 3: match Kevin, and that was shown to the jury. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: that blood spot had been subjected to testing only by

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Speaker 3: the prosecution, and it had been tested so much that

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Speaker 3: it was exhausted, there was none left of it.

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Speaker 1: So they changed the blood type to match Kevin Cooper.

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Speaker 1: Exactly what in the war? They changed the freaking blood type?

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Speaker 1: Who does these things? There's also some Harris found right

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Speaker 1: that didn't match their narrative at all, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: bring that up. Right.

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Speaker 3: Jessica Ryan had hairs clutched in her hand when her

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Speaker 3: body was found that were blonde in color, and the

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Speaker 3: jury was never told that a trial. The prosecution didn't

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Speaker 3: want that to be known, and the defense lawyer did

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Speaker 3: not do a good job. Bear in mind, there were

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Speaker 3: no hairs from an African American at the crime scene

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Speaker 3: note ever found.

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Speaker 1: And so the prosecution brings up the station wagon. Doesn't

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Speaker 1: make a big deal that the blood evidence of the

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Speaker 1: car clearly shows that three perpetrators had stained the seats

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Speaker 1: beneath them. But they do bring up cigarette butts, cigarette

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Speaker 1: butts that somehow were not found during the first inspection

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Speaker 1: of the Ryan station wagon.

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Speaker 3: The origin of those cigarette butts, of course, is the

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Speaker 3: cigarette butts that they collected in the lease house after

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Speaker 3: they inspected it, which disappeared, and then suddenly cigarette butts

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Speaker 3: with Kevin's blood type bottom are discovered in the Ryan

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Speaker 3: station wagon. There's another part to the forensic Marie ass

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Speaker 3: that is this case, which is that at the lease

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Speaker 3: house they tested the shower area for blood. The problem

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Speaker 3: with that is that the test that they did is

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Speaker 3: a test that could be showing either blood or bleach,

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Speaker 3: and the woman who had left the lease house the

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Speaker 3: week that the murders were committed testified that she had

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Speaker 3: in fact cleaned the tub with bleach. So there was

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Speaker 3: clearly that basis for the finding that there was bleach

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Speaker 3: not blood in there. But of course that whole theory

401
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Speaker 3: is inconsistent with the theory that if he had committed

402
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Speaker 3: these murders, gone to the lease house and taken a shower,

403
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Speaker 3: he wouldn't have left blood in three different seats in

404
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Speaker 3: the car. But all of that was overlooked.

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Speaker 1: So what was presented, if anything, in his defense by

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Speaker 1: his team.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, Kevin's lawyer did a good job of showing that

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Speaker 3: the blood spot evidence was faulty, but the problem that

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Speaker 3: he faced with his defense was that his lawyer, who

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Speaker 3: was a public defender, wanted to defend this case on

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Speaker 3: his own without any help from anybody else. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 3: prosecution had countless lawyers and investigators and forensic people, and

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Speaker 3: so the lawyer for Kevin was simply overwhelmed, and he

414
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: never bothered to read the documents that were produced by

415
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Speaker 3: the prosecution, as it's required by law, and he didn't

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Speaker 3: know how to get any evidence forward that would have

417
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Speaker 3: shown that there was, for instance, blonde hairs in Jessica's hand.

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Speaker 3: And he basically told the trial judge that he was

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Speaker 3: exhausted and couldn't go forward, and the judge said to him, well,

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Speaker 3: you should have gotten help. It's too late now.

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Speaker 1: Let me just throw that back for a second. So

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Speaker 1: you did say that the defense lawyer, the one hope

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Speaker 1: in hell that Kevin had, at one point, said he

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Speaker 1: was too exhausted and couldn't go on, yes, and didn't

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Speaker 1: bother to read the for its prosecution the view that

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Speaker 1: they did turn over to him, which he's required by

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Speaker 1: ethics and everything else to do. That's correct.

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Speaker 3: Probably the most crucial piece of evidence at trial was

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Speaker 3: the testimony that the prosecution presented of Josh Ryan. As

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Speaker 3: you recall, Josh Ryan had identified the assailants as three

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Speaker 3: whiter Mexican men the morning after the crimes and.

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Speaker 2: He saw my pitscrow TV. He seen it wasn't me.

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Speaker 2: So what did they do to the Loane high witness?

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Speaker 2: They flipped him. They makes him say that he didn't

435
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: see me per se, but he saw a shadow with

436
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: a puff of hair and a puff of hair meaning

437
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: that air room.

438
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: And they presented a videotape of him where he simply

439
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 3: said that all he saw was one shadow of the assailants.

440
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: And the jury never was able to understand how that

441
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: change came about, and therefore the most crucial evidence in

442
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 3: the case from Josh Ryan was gone, as well as

443
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: not having the bloody coveralls that were turned over to

444
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 3: the Sheriff's department by the girlfriend of the person who

445
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 3: we think actually committed these crimes, or the blue shirt

446
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: with blood on it which matched the description that Josh

447
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 3: Ryan gave shortly after he was taken to the hospital.

448
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: So what you have is a very distorted picture that

449
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: the jury was shown of the evidence and of the

450
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 3: crime and of Kevin Cooper because of evidence that was

451
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: destroyed or hidden and evidence that was planted.

452
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: How long did the jury deliberate?

453
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: Jury actually deliberated for a week, seven days, and the

454
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: jury members have told us that if there had been

455
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: one less piece of evidence, they would have acquitted Kevin.

456
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: So, Kevin, when the jury went out to deliverate, can

457
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: you tell us what you were feeling then, what was

458
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: going through your mind?

459
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: Well, I'm feeling good because they deliberate seven days. I mean,

460
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: you would think that if they were going to find

461
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: me right away. So I'm thinking, damn, I got a shot.

462
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: And then I come back and they found me guilty,

463
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: and you know that was It's unreal. I can't put

464
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: into words. The person has to experience that personally for

465
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: them to truly understand the out of body experience that

466
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: that is. Now after that I was a convicted murderer,

467
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: society said that I don't deserve to live, and that's

468
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: how they treated me. They put me in the back

469
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: of a police car like at two o'clock in the

470
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: morning and drove me from San Diego all the way

471
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: up here to San Quentin Prison until I got here.

472
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 2: And they have nineteen eighty five. I was on death

473
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: room and I've been here every since. I got here

474
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 2: when I was twenty seven. Now I'm sixty four. My

475
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: life has says a lot. I have survived a lot,

476
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: and I've been through they own back. I did not

477
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: commit murders. I would not commit me. I'm not a

478
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: murder That's not in me to do. You know I've

479
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 2: been in Saying put prison nineteen eighty five. You know

480
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: I've never been in a fist writing. I'm on the

481
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: mainline death U York. I've never been to ac I've

482
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: never been in any trouble. I never had a whole

483
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: unquote prison writer for miscontent because I Missitussea laws. It's

484
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: just because this stuff was not in me.

485
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: And since then it's been a winding road through the

486
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: appeals process and the bad actors in this case. There's

487
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: still a whole lot more to come, right.

488
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: Well, talking about the appeals, first, on direct appeal to

489
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: the California Supreme Court, the California Supreme Court actually decided

490
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: for the first time to ascribe a motive to Kevin Cooper,

491
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: and in their opinion, even though the prosecution had never

492
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: asserted this, said that the reason for the murder of

493
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 3: the Ryots was for Kevin Cooper to steal the Ryans car. Well,

494
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 3: the Ryan station wagon which was taken away by the

495
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: ackers had the keys in it, so there was no

496
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 3: need for anybody to harm the Ryans if that was

497
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: the reason for the crimes. The California Supreme Court also

498
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: rejected a number of other claims of ineffective assistance of

499
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: its council and of evidence being planted and evidence being destroyed.

500
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 3: Federal courts under a piece of legislation called the Anti

501
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, it was passed in

502
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: the nineties, those federal courts are not allowed to make

503
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: findings that are inconsistent with what the state court findings are,

504
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: and that has been a real legal hurdle for Kevin

505
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 3: Cooper to assert his innocence and overturn this conviction, even

506
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: though the evidence that the California Supreme Court relied upon

507
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: has now been disproven. So Kevin's appeals continued in the

508
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: federal courts, handcuffed by this law, and finally, in February

509
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: of two thousand and four, Kevin was scheduled to be

510
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: executed when a stay was issued by the Ninth Circuit

511
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: Court of Appeals, giving Kevin the right to file a

512
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: new federal habeas corpus petition James L.

513
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: Brownie, he wrote a descent. He took that this in

514
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: around to all the other judges and for the first

515
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: time in the history of nestility case in California death

516
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: roal Indmaker in balk hearing, I got a nine or

517
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: two decision because she only did eleven judges at that time,

518
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: and they stayed not execution. But normally, when people get

519
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: a state, the United States Supreme Court will lift that

520
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 2: state and those animates will ultimately get execute But in

521
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: this case, there was so much wrong that they're not

522
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: a state supreme court. They refused to lift the state,

523
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: and that's why I'm still here today.

524
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 3: He came within three hours and fifty seven minutes of

525
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: being executed. We had a new habeas corpus proceeding in

526
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: federal court in San Diego, and that judge, unfortunately, was

527
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: the one who had decided against Kevin twice in previous

528
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: habeas corpus petitions, and she refused to listen to any

529
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: of the evidence that we put on.

530
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: There's also the issue of the DNA right the blocking

531
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: of the DNA being tested. Tell us how it came

532
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: to be the DNA in this case, which was available

533
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: with the modern technology that was developed long after Kevin

534
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: went to prison, that it took literally decades in case

535
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: after case and brief after brief to try to get

536
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: anybody to test the DNA am I right.

537
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: Yes, there was DNA testing done in the early nineteen

538
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 3: nineties and what that DNA testing showed was that prosecution

539
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: had tampered with the evidence that they had said they

540
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: were going to allow DNA testing for. So while some

541
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: of the DNA testing seemed to exonerate Kevin, some of

542
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: it did not. We were able to do some testing

543
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: which showed that, in fact, Kevin's blood had been planted

544
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: on the T shirt that had been tested for Kevin's DNA.

545
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: How could the testing have proven that they planted this blood?

546
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard of something called EDTA. Can you

547
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: explain that? And how this could have been the key

548
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: that literally unlocked the doors of the president sent him

549
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: home years and years and years ago.

550
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: The only thing that has tied Kevin to the Ryan

551
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: House is the supposed finding of a blood spot outside

552
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: the crime scene in a hall. When Kevin was arrested,

553
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 3: they took vials of his blood to be able to

554
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: compare his blood type to the blood at the crime scene.

555
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: We felt that the prosecution had taken Kevin's blood that

556
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: was taken at the time that he was arrested and

557
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: put it on the T shirt and on the blood spot.

558
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 3: And the way to prove that is to see whether

559
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 3: or not in addition to the blood, there is a

560
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 3: chemical that is used by law enforcement to preserve blood

561
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: when it is taken, called EDTA, and the prosecution hired

562
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: a scientist to do the testing for EDTA, and his

563
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: results showed that there was heightened DTA. But as soon

564
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: as he found out that that was his result, he

565
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 3: withdrew said there'd have been a contamination in his lab

566
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: and that was why the result showed that there was

567
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 3: a high level of DTA, and the judge at the

568
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 3: time accepted that, and the.

569
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: Beat goes on. Right. I mean, it's crazy that there's

570
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: so many people, so many years after the fact, that

571
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: are still in positions of great power who are actively

572
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: engaged in continuing this grievous injustice. And I want to

573
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: say not everyone, right, because while Kevin's habeas petitions have

574
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: been repeatedly denied, there was a judge, Judge William Fletcher.

575
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: So Judge Fletcher dissented from the Ninth Circuit Court's opinion,

576
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: and in it he argued that the police may have

577
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: tampered with the evidence and that the Ninth Circuit should

578
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: have reheard the case en banc, which of course means

579
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: the entire panel of judges, and ordered the Federal District

580
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: judge to give Cooper the fair hearing. He has never

581
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: had strong words. Right. And then here are some of

582
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: the arguments that were proposed post conviction. Right. But it's

583
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: interesting that Judge Fletcher concurred with many of these findings. Right.

584
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 1: He said, quote, deputies misrepresented Josh's recollections and gradually shaped

585
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: his testimony so that it was consistent with the prosecution's

586
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: theory that there was only one killer. End quote. He

587
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: referenced to blonde hairs that were found clutched in Pjessica

588
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: Ryan's hand. Obviously, Kevin is not blonde, but that that

589
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: was disregarded. He pointed out that the initial search of

590
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: the station wagon, no cigarette butts were found. Judge Fletcher wrote, quote,

591
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: some of those cigarette butts could have easily been planted

592
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: in the car. Moreover, after initial forensic testing, paper from

593
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: a hand rolled cigarette butt supposedly founded the station wagon

594
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: was described as consumed. That same paper later quote reappeared

595
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: and was offered into evidence. This is still the judge's quote.

596
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: By the way, when the paper reappeared, it was significantly

597
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: larger than the paper and the cigarette butt that had

598
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: been tested. End quote. Fletcher wrote that while the button

599
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: found in the house came from a green prison jacket quote, uncontradicted,

600
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: evidence to trial showed that Cooper was wearing a brown

601
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: or tan prison issue jacket when he escaped end quote.

602
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: Fletcher further said the preservatives found in the blood on

603
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: the T shirt indicated that it may have been planted.

604
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: He wrote that if the EDTA testing already performed shows

605
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: that Cooper's blood was planted on the T shirt, that

606
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: showing greatly increduces the likelihood that much of the evidence

607
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: introduced a trial was false end quote. I mean, this

608
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: judge laid it out, man, He laid it out. And

609
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: then there's all the evidence of the alternate suspects, right,

610
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: especially Lee Furrow.

611
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 3: We now have evidence from him to third parties that

612
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: he in fact was the killer. So he is confessed

613
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 3: to a number of people about having done this although

614
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: he has not confessed to law enforcement.

615
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: We can't leave out another guy, Lee Furrow's one time boss,

616
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: Clarence ray Allen, who was a notoriously violent guy who

617
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: happened to also run a criminal organization, and he and

618
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: Farrow had had a big falling out over the murder

619
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: of a teenage girl, Mary Sue Kit, who had witnessed

620
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: some of their criminal activity.

621
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 3: Back in the nineteen seventies. At Clarence rey Allen's direction,

622
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: Lee Furrow strangled this young lady and cut her body

623
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 3: up and threw it into a drainage ditch. Lee Furrow

624
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 3: was captured and charged with his crime, and in order

625
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 3: to get a reduced sentence, he turned state's evidence against

626
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 3: Clarence ray Allen, and so Pharaoh only served three and

627
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 3: a half years in prison for the murder of Mary

628
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 3: Sue Kits, while the Clarence rey Allen ultimately was convicted

629
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 3: and sentenced to death. So Farah has a pretty nefarious

630
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 3: background which links him to the type of crime that

631
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 3: was perpetrated on the Ryan family in nineteen eighty three.

632
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: Now, even with the multiple confessions by Lee Furrow, were

633
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: unsure why they killed the Ryans, but some people and

634
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: you'll remember that Peggy raised Arabian horses. Clarence ray Allen

635
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: was in that business as well, and some people believe

636
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: that it was a horssale gone awry. It's also believed

637
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: that Clarence ray Allen contracted many more murders from behind bars,

638
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: and Lee Furrow kept himself safe by working off his

639
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: debt to Clarence ray Allen, by carrying out these executions.

640
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: You don't need to be a genius to figure this

641
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: one out, you really don't. But here we are today,

642
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: and thirty eight years later, Kevin remains in prison, suffering

643
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: day in and day out. Now, of course we go

644
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: to a little bit of a hopeful development, I guess

645
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: you could say, which was that on May twenty one,

646
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: Governor Gavin Newsom ordered a full innocence investigation into the case. Now,

647
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: Governor Newsom has granted already eighty six pardons ninety two

648
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: commutations in twenty eight reprieves. So there's reason to believe

649
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: that there could be hope, especially with this Melissa. And

650
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 1: I think he's a great governor, and I think that

651
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: he is a man who believes injustice, he believes in fairness,

652
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: and he believes in righting wrongs. So all of that

653
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: gives me hope. So, Kevin, what are you thinking about

654
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: this now? After everything you've been through? Are you feeling

655
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: optimistic about this?

656
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: Well, first and foremost, this just didn't happen on its own.

657
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: There have been a lot of a lot of people,

658
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 2: including my attorney else the former put in a lot

659
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: of work to get these people to see the truth.

660
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: This Innocents Investigation will reveal the truth. We're not afraid

661
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: of the truth. It's the other side who's afraid of

662
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: the truth. The truth that has been exposed so far

663
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: about the case and the corruption, you know, the champion

664
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: with evidence, the fanting of governess, the intimidation and witnesses,

665
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: and all this other stuff has been revealed by us.

666
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: And so it is my hope and it is my

667
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 2: prayer that this innocence investigation, which is the first for

668
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: a death row inmate in the history of the state

669
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 2: of California, will do exactly what it is designed to do,

670
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 2: investigate the innocence and come up with the treatment.

671
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, absolutely so, Kevin. I know a lot of

672
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: our listeners are going to want to learn more about

673
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: your case. Is there a website that you can refer

674
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: them to go to. I know there've also been a

675
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: ton of national press done about your case as well.

676
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: Anyone who wants to learn more about my case, you

677
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: can go to Freekevincooper dot com. You can go to

678
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 2: my Facebook page. You can look at death row stories

679
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: on Natino's Hills, murders on a Mountain. You can look

680
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: at forty eight Hours. Over the twenty years since nineteen

681
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: ninety nine, Aaron Morioty of CBS News at forty eight

682
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 2: Hours has done i think five stories on this case,

683
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: and so the information is there.

684
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: We'll put links to all of that in our bio

685
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 1: and I hope that you are listeners will get involved

686
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: in this case. If you have it already, this wrong

687
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: can still be righted. And with people like Norm on

688
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: the case and the governor of the great State of California,

689
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: I hope that we'll be welcoming Kevin home very soon.

690
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: And with that, we have a tradition here at Ronful Conviction,

691
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: which is my favorite part of the show, and it's

692
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: probably most people's favorite part of the show. It's called

693
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: closing arguments and it works like this. First of all,

694
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: I thank you too, guys for coming here and courageously sharing.

695
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to you now, Kevin, of course

696
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: your story, and Norm for all the work you're doing.

697
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: So without further ado, I'm going to turn my microphone

698
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 1: off for the section of the show we call closing arguments.

699
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kick back in my chair, turn the volume up,

700
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: leave my headphones on, and let you guys share any

701
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 1: final thoughts you want to share with our audience. So Norm,

702
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,959
Speaker 1: let's start with you, and then you can just hand

703
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: the mic off to Kevin and let him take us out.

704
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 3: We hope that this travesty of justice will be reversed,

705
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 3: and we definitely are very thankful to Governor Newsom for

706
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 3: having ordered an investigation of this case. We're confident that

707
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,959
Speaker 3: an investigation into what happened here will show that Kevin

708
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 3: Cooper is in fact innocent and should be released from

709
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 3: prison and pardoned and Kevin over to you.

710
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: America is not just dealing with the racial reckoning in

711
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: this country, also dealing with a truth reckoning, a truth

712
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: reckoning that is based on this denial of its racial problem.

713
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: Here in this country. This criminal justice system is truly

714
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: last messages of slavery. Nothing more is true about that.

715
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 2: Then it comes to dealing with police on the front

716
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: end of the criminal justice system, execution is on the

717
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: back end of the justice system, and all in between

718
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: this justice system, there's a bunch of people, not all

719
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: of them, but a bunch of them who are that

720
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: same mentality to lack us or get rid of us.

721
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 2: Now I am to blame to a degree for being

722
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: on death thrill. Why because I walked away from that person,

723
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 2: and I put myself in a position by doing so

724
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: to let those body snatchers get their hands on me,

725
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: and they did the rest. And the only reason why

726
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: I'm alive, And I really to this day don't know

727
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: why I'm alive unless it's God and he has a

728
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 2: plan for me bigger than I know, because I honestly

729
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: thought on February nine, two thousand and four, when they

730
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 2: had me sitting inside that Jeff Chamber of waiting room,

731
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: that I was going to die that night. How and

732
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 2: why I'm still alive today, I don't know other than

733
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 2: their turns who fly for me then are still fighting

734
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: for me now. And the truth about this case just

735
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: keeps coming out, and it proves that I did not

736
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: commit those murders and that somebody else did so. All

737
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: master for is my day in court. Here in this

738
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: country the claims to be the land of the free

739
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: and the home of the brave, when it should be

740
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: called the land of the oppressors and the home of

741
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: the moral cowards. Because of this moral coworkers, these people

742
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 2: have taken. Damn, they're forty years out of my life.

743
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: Not just prosecutors, but these judges who refuse to look

744
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 2: at the truth, corpor stamp in my case on through

745
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 2: even though all the evidence is there, that evidence was planted,

746
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: evidence was destroyed. Witness will temperat with and pave me.

747
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: If these people get the opportunity, they will put that

748
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: death chamber back together, they will reassembly. And I'm the

749
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: first online for them to murder, not because I'm guilty

750
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: and because I'm fighting back. And that's the worst thing

751
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: that those people see in me. I'm a fighter.

752
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to

753
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

754
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wadis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

755
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time Oscar nominated

756
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: composer Jay Row. Sure to follow us on Instagram at

757
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on

758
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.

759
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: On all three platforms, you can also follow me on

760
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flap. Wrongful Conviction

761
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 1: is the production of Lava for Good podcast and association

762
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one