WEBVTT - Maybe You'll Get Ahead by Being Nicer at Work 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.840 Welcome to game Plan, a show about our lives at work. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:16.959 I'm Francesca Leavie, editor of the game Plan section at 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.560 Bloomberg dot com, and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, a reporter at Bloomberg, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.280 where I cover workplace culture. This week, we're talking about 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.480 being nice at work. Coming up, we'll talk to Paul Ford, 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:31.240 a programmer and writer who wrote an essay on Medium 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.720 about being a polite person and how bad has helped 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.360 him in his work. But before that, let's talk about 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.360 being nice. Becca. What's what's it like to be nice? 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.239 I'm so nice? I can't. You're medium nice. Thank you. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.800 That's the right amount of nice. I think. I think 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.319 that's good nice. Well, the world is getting meaner though, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.519 according to researchers, or at least the workplaces. There have 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.520 been a lot of studies showing that workplaces are becoming morcalus. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.200 People are meeting to each other, people are stressed out, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.160 bole don't have any friends at work? What do we think? Yeah, 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:05.840 I mean, you have some stats that you gave me 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.280 five about half of Americans said they had a close 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.720 friend at work. This is so sad. Then by two 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.280 thousand four, this was true for only thirty percent of people. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:17.200 Do you think you have a close friend at work? 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.880 You can't say me. I Oh, I usually take away 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.759 close friendships from every like one or two close friendships 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:27.840 from every job I've had. I mean, people come and go, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.959 so then you go through lulls where you know you 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.560 don't have like a real homie at work. But that's 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:36.960 a hard time. Yeah, So I think I'm in kind 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.960 of like maybe one of those transitional periods now. But 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.360 every job I've had, I've I have one token friend 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:45.800 at least say that same. I feel that way too. 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.400 When I read that stat I was surprised. But most 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.760 people I know seem to have pretty good working relationships. Yeah, 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.640 but I wonder if this vibe of workplace is just 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.240 being meaner in general. Like I wonder if there really 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.280 is a shift over time that's real, or whether it's 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.160 just the way we perceive work now that work is 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.520 so different from what it used to be. Yeah, And 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.919 some of the articles I've read about lamenting the demise 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.640 of happiness at work, it seems the metrics they're using 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.720 are kind of outdated or unrelatable to me. One of 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.800 the statistics was that people don't go on vacation with 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.440 their coworkers anymore. That seems like a really high bar. 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.160 Yeah right, I don't know. I go on vacation like 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:28.280 with my family. That's pretty much it. I don't know. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:29.760 You could see why you wouldn't want to spend your 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:33.400 vacation with your coworkers. Are also logistically it's difficult, you know, 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.079 if you're working in a smaller office, can't take off 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.800 at the same time as everybody you work with. I 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.919 have had really sad jobs where the sort of office 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.399 environment was so negative or I hate to use this word, 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.720 but toxic, that even though there were plenty of people 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.520 I really liked at work, I would avoid any work 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.720 related event outside of work, like I would avoid an 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.960 after work happy hour or somebody's birthday party or something, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.160 because it was like traumatic for me to be around 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.200 the people that reminded me of what it was like 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.400 to be in the office. And also it often devolved 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.639 into just a complaint session about work. So maybe that's 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.080 the reality for more people, I think. I guess the 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.360 other thing that we've talked about is how connected people 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.840 are in the office now. I think that your office 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.560 life and your real life used to be fairly different 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.600 zones that were kept very separate and distinct. And now, 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:30.280 as you've written about extensively, and you and I have 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.600 talked about plenty, there are so many ways to stay 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.080 connected to your colleagues, and we're expected to work longer 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.800 hours and we're expected to be available to our colleagues 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.600 for more of our waking hours that I think there 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.080 are just more opportunities to piss people off. Yeah, I 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.240 think it goes both ways. One woman who argued that 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.840 workplaces are getting miners that used as an example people 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.720 checking their phones during meetings as a mean thing to 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.120 do at work, which it's so normal to me that 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.680 doesn't seem mean, but share that could be rude, right. 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:04.520 But on the other side of things, I have a 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.080 lot of strong relationships that have been formed over a 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.240 chat and messaging, and I've talked to many people who 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.080 say that they've formed good friendships that way. So I 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.440 totally disaccount those digital experiences. So I think it's important 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.880 to point out, though, that being nice at work means 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.240 something different for men and women. Women are often criticized 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.599 for being too nice to ingratiating like tick saying sorry. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.000 For example, we're always hearing about women apologizing too much. 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.719 We say sorry for things we're not even really sorry 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.520 for things we didn't do wrong. It's gotten to the 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.400 point where it's like the subject of a joke. This 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.880 is a clip from the television show Inside Amy Schumer 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.160 that shows the extreme example of what happens when you 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.440 say sorry too much. Today's panelists are the top innovators 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.400 in their respective fields. Dr Amy Schmer is one of 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.920 the lead scientists behind prenatal neural peptides and their effects 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.240 on memory and learning. Yes, that's correct. Sorry. Professor's Sasha 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.440 Barron is a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry. Sasha, let's 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:09.280 start with you. I invented a solar paneled water filtration system. Sorry. Um, 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:15.640 that's portable and lightweights. Yeah. Sorry, thanks, that'd be great. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.919 But if you can't, no worries. Sorry, is this coffee 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.120 a coffee? You can get some water and this is 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.520 my pahlon. But any of you ladies like a coffee? 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.320 I'm sorry, I don't want to go to waste. Yes, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:36.840 I'll take it, Thank you? Nice? Sorry, Sorry, oh god, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:43.600 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've ruined everything, all right, So 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.839 obviously women are guilty of saying sorry. To the point 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.920 of personal injury, yeah, to death. Yeah. And so this 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.919 has been the upshot from this popular realization that women 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.560 are more inclined to say sorry than men, that they 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.360 should just do it less. So they should stop apologizing 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.840 for being themselves or stop apologizing for things that they 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.360 didn't do wrong, right, like in the clip, how they're 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.880 apologizing for things that they have no need to apologize 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.359 for us, So we shouldn't apologize at all, right, And 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.600 so you're you're kind of disenfranchising yourself by doing that. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.719 And I love this clip, and I think it's funny 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.279 and it highlights a lot of things about like the 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.159 way women and men interact. But I I feel like 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.280 we are also just perpetuating this idea that women are 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.800 doing something wrong by saying sorry. You know. Lena Dunham 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.960 wrote an essay in her Lenny Letter newsletter about how 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.160 she was done saying sorry and she was going to 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.840 do less of it. And my feeling is there are 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.400 plenty of moments when it's actually appropriate to say sorry, 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.520 and just because women say sorry perhaps more than men, 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.640 doesn't necessarily mean they're doing it too much. Maybe men 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.719 aren't saying sorry enough, which I think maybe as another 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.680 takeaway from that Amy Schumert clip is the man on 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.960 stage just doing nothing and getting out of a lot. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.200 I've been looking great, which is kind of like in 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.839 the workplace. There are plenty of moments in my professional 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.120 life where men have not said sorry or have not 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.120 kind of couched a request with an apology, and I've 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.920 noticed it and kind of paganism polite. But at the 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.920 same time, I understand the instinct as a woman to 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.720 want to edit yourself so that you're not doing and 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.160 saying right woman ish things that right to take away 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.040 your power right. And and there's a popular chrome extension 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:34.360 that does just that, that will edit your emails for 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.800 phrasing like I'm sorry, and just so that your emails 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.200 are more clear and frankly more masculine and so that 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.360 you'll get ahead in the workplace. And doesn't it throw 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.600 up like little pop ups that say, man, explain to 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.720 you why you're why your language is hurting you, like 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.000 people tend to. Yeah, I mean it was a woman 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:58.200 to be care but I do think that, yeah, is 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.600 this a solution to just tell women to act more 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:06.600 like men, which is a popular way that women are 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.440 told that they couldn't get ahead negotiate like a man. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.720 It's like a man, be like a man. But it's 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.480 this sort of Cheryl Sandberg lean In philosophy of if 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.760 you just strip away all these behaviors that are associated 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.040 with women that are holding women back, then you won't 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.440 have any more obstacles in your way to getting ahead 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.040 in the workplace. And I think that it's clear that 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.480 that's not the case because what tends to happen is 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.480 any behavior that's associated with women, it's wrong because women 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.880 do more of it. Right, So if you stop saying 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.760 sorry and you're too aggressive, then you're perceived in a 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.280 bad way. Also, I when I was first starting out 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:48.040 in my first job, I had a male boss pulled 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:52.640 me aside and tell me I was too sour and 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.000 he told me that I should be, you know, more 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.080 up and cheerful. And I did that, and I think 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.280 he was right. It worked. But how infuriating is that? 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.800 I mean, it's hard to imagine a man being told that. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.440 But also there's always some kernel of good advice in there, 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.199 like it probably is valuable too. I think I was 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.760 to take some of the edge off of your For 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:14.520 anyone to take some of the edge off of their 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.439 attitude if they have one, which is exactly what we're 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:23.600 gonna be talking about with our guests today. Paul Ford 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.560 is a writer essayist. He is the co founder of 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.600 Postlight and co host of the podcast Track Changes, and 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.280 a little while back, he wrote an essay for Medium 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.480 on what it means to be a polite person. Welcome, Paul, 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.920 Thank you for having me. So let's jump right into 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.320 your philosophy of niceness. What inspired you to write this 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.679 essay and kind of explain to people how you get 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.560 other people to warm to you. So I was, for 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.600 a brief fall a paid writer for Medium, and I 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.839 had turned forty the night before, and I woke up 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.679 and I was just kind of like, what have I done? 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.320 Not in any specific thing. I hadn't really done anything. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.080 I just felt really like exhausted about being forty. And 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.040 I had this like sudden wave where I was like, 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.200 you know, I should write that politeness thing. And it 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.439 was by far one of the most successful and and 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.839 and like well read things I've ever written. But it 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.160 sort of came out of me in about fifteen minutes, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.720 and the basic gest of the piece was that politeness 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.280 is kind of a power tool in life, and you 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.520 can get very very far by actually just sort of 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.320 being very polite and respectful, and that if more people 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.760 could just chill out and do that, it might be 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.560 good for them and good for all of us together. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.080 I imagine it was so successful because we're used to 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.160 hearing the opposite. Yeah, and the opposite is is really easy, right, 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.280 Like you can tell people you have to be angrier 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.400 and more assertive, and nobody is really into the idea 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.800 of like starched collars and and a slight sense of reserve. 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.840 So you opened the essay with a story from work 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.560 in which a coworker of your as a woman, calls 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.880 you a kiss us and I'm just wondering what you 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.600 could have done? What you did that was so polite 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.839 that she was turned off by it. Oh, I was 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.679 in a lot of meetings at big publishing companies, and 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:17.880 she was coming from the world of technology. She was 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:21.480 very West Coast, very hard driving, and so I'd be 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.520 in those means and I'd be sort of like, Okay, well, 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.600 then tell me what happened, and I was. I just 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.440 had sort of infinite indulgence for what she saw as 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.360 just the raw, incredible stupidity of the people across the table, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.800 And I didn't see it as stupidity. I just saw them. 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.280 You know, I've been a technologist, but I've also worked 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.320 in publishing for many, many years, and what I've come 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.679 to learn is that the things that you often interpret 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.640 as stupidity or bureaucracy or frustration have very good reasons. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.160 On the other side. There's actually a logic to them. 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.720 And if you attack people, they get very defensive and 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.760 they say, Okay, this person is a monster. Let's get 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.720 them out of here as quickly as possible. But if 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.200 you to sit there and you're like, okay, how you know, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:03.960 sort of like how did it feel to you when 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.320 they put that website up and it started to disrupt 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.160 your career? If you ask those questions, people are actually 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.200 well bad, right. They're like, well, they didn't understand the 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.560 whole deal with consumer services, and you're like, oh my god, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.160 no they didn't. And then you get them to to 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.200 play that out. You actually you just acknowledge that their 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.680 challenges are real. Even though the larger culture goes get 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:32.319 with the program, get disrupted, learn new skills, acknowledge that 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.640 that's really hard for people and often they'll just come 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.200 right around to your side. And so she's read that 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.080 as insincerity. Yeah, because she was like, this is taking forever. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.280 You know, culture is changing. We gotta get in there. 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.760 But then she came around and said, but it actually 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.920 helped you get things done. It was a strategy. And 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.080 you write that is how an impolite person gives a compliment, 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.000 which I gladly accepted. That's right now. I mean it's 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.040 it's look, my method tends to be if you just 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.520 let the water drip over the stone and then slowly, 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.480 like a pattern emerges, you can see you can see 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.559 the stone get worn away. A lot of people bring 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.640 out a hammer. There's times when you do bring out 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.560 the hammer, no matter what. That's life. But for the 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.800 most part, I don't necessarily feel that I have to 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.920 push people like off a cliff into the future in 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.520 order to get my job done. You sound very tolerant. 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.920 I think is a word that I might use. I 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:27.800 hope other people would see me that way. I hope 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.480 people would would think I was a pretty good listener. Well, 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.240 one thing you say, you spend a lot of time 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.880 on in the essays talking about your ability to sort 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.640 of bring people out in any circumstance that you meet 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.760 them by when they describe what they do, you say 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:44.959 you have a phrase with the phrase right, so it's 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.000 it's my party trick. And um, when people tell you 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.760 what they do, you can just go that sounds hard 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.079 and they go, oh, you have no idea, fantastic. And 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.760 I were talking about this before you came about how 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.600 if we said that it would sound so sarcastic and dismissive, like, oh, 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.199 that sounds really hard. It seems like you could definitely 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.480 say it wrong. It's true. Now you just I mean, 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:10.840 we can, we can play it out. What do you 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.680 what do you guys do where podcasts? Oh? You know, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.199 my god, that must be an unbelievable amount of work, right, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.840 do you have to like book all the guests yourself? Yeah, 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.360 we do, and it's it's really hard. So you're doing 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.360 all that, but you're also trying to put the show together. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.600 You're like on Google calendar. Yeah, well this does feel 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.760 so good, Oh my god, but like, how do you 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.120 even have to How do you have time to make 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.840 such a great show? So these are always that you 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:39.920 describe of kind of connecting with people. And one thing 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.760 I thought was interesting about your essay is that it's 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.840 you frame it as being about politeness, but it's a 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.080 little bit more about being warm, because I think that 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.280 you are, you know, being a kind of warm, giving person, 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.040 because I think you can be perceived as polite and 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.320 still not be somebody that other people are dying to 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.200 keep talking to, or someone you talk about in the 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.360 essay how the woman came around to you because you've 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.560 got stuff done. M One thing I want to make 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.120 sure we touch on is because you don't really mention 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.000 the aspect of gender anywhere in your essay, but I 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.920 do think that there is a difference between what it 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.560 means for a man to be a good listener, which 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.320 is kind of what you describe a lot of in 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.160 the essay, is just being good at listening and being 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.960 genuinely interested in what people are saying. I feel like 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.120 there's a there's more of an expectation of women that 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.320 they'll already be doing that. So it seems almost goes 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.760 back to am I allowed to participate in this culture? 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.960 And women are constantly doing that in the workplace right, 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.720 And maybe that's why we are perceived as the people 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:46.160 always saying sorry or the people being extra ingratiating and polite, 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.560 because again, we're putting up this buffer to prove that 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.160 we can be here, which I think is I think 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.680 that's completely real. I think that's a system that women. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.920 Women have all these crazy like cultural technologies that they 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.960 have to use in order to get through a day. 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.320 This is like a little too foundational, but it's that 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.360 was going to end up being a bad pun. But like, 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.240 makeup is like a weapon, right, Like it's like, Okay, 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.640 I can actually modify my appearance so that I feel 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.320 more comfortable and in control of the situation and I 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.400 won't feel as vulnerable as I go through the day. 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.920 Men the vast majority of men just don't have that 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:24.400 consideration or don't don't tend to feel that way, and 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.080 so right like that becomes part of the system. So look, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.360 I mean politeness is kind of that. It's like a system, 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.000 it's a technology. It's a way for you to go 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.200 in the room and just sort of be like, okay, 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.880 even if this guy, And especially because I think in particular, 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.400 women are thrown in positions where their safety is kind 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.600 of blurry at the edges, right, So it's like, oh, 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.040 I'm going to be sexually harassed. Well, if I am 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.200 super polite with this complete asked, that is just like 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.680 saying weird stuff about my body or or like trying 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.720 to touch me or suggesting that I need to sleep 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.040 with him in order to advance my career. Like the 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.200 women who, especially like a couple of generations prior, were 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.560 either really really bad ass or they just like went 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.480 stone faced and we're like, Okay, I don't think that 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.720 we've understood ourselves. You know, I don't think I understood 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:10.479 you very clearly. I'm going to get back to you, 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.080 like and then they would just get out of the room. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.399 Those are like weird, bad, dangerous situations, and politeness was 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.840 a weapon because you didn't have recourse in other ways, 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.320 So I see it as very It was empowering in 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.159 places where people didn't have a lot of power. Do 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.520 you feel like the same type of polite person now 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.960 as the guy who co runs the company as you 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:32.880 did as a person who was just sort of going 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.600 through the world with a more regular job, Like, would 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.639 everybody in your company perceive you as polite in the 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.320 same way? Right, Because a lot of the thing about 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.080 being mean is usually put on people who are leaders, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.000 and like leaders have to make the hard choices and 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.040 be tough to get ahead. When you have people's careers 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.119 under your direct control, you have to give more clear 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.280 feedback than you need to give out a party. And 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.520 when someone is leave in the company for whatever reason, 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.880 there's all sorts of like, there's all sorts of stuff 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:09.840 if that gets outside of this zone that is real, 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.800 that relates to people's material well being, and I'm responsible 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.000 for that, And so it shifts from polite, which I 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.520 think actually remains the baseline. Politeness is one thing, like 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.199 active respect is another. Uh, that to me is the 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:32.320 because I can't actually always be polite. If I have 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.720 to tell you what you're doing that I need you 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.960 to change your fix. I mean, it sounds to me 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.960 like you're still even in situations where you have to 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.560 be direct and criticize people, you're still doing it in 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.640 a polite way, Like you're not abandoning those principles. You're 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.600 just maybe it's not as warm. It can't be right, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.520 like that kind of communication doesn't scale out that way. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.480 You just can't have I can't be a worm mentoring 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:00.760 caretaker to forty plus people in a growing organization. But 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.600 obviously you can still be played, so I can be 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.120 respectful and I can try to make sure that the 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.840 culture is set up so that they you know, part 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.080 of it too is just like is this a good 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.320 place where parents can work? Is this a good place 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.960 where you know? Do people feel like their careers are 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.480 safe here? And I feel if we kind of take 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.160 care of that, that's that's a greater form of respect 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.560 than just like making good, amiable chit chat in the elevator. Well, 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.679 PAULA Ford, thank you so much for coming in and 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.960 talking to us. Thank you as a real, real privilege. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:38.560 Thank you, Okay, Becca, So where do we stand on 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.280 being mean versus being nice? Which is the better career strategy? 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.520 I think Paul made a really good point that he 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:49.480 even modifies his niceness as a boss. So I think 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:54.000 it's all pretty situational, like kind of use your best judgment, right, 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.639 and it depends on your audience or whom you know 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.879 you're talking to. Like he even admits, as a se 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.800 proclaimed polite person who is very kind to most people 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:06.800 in his life, that there are moments where he just 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.680 can't wear that hat right. And I think it's important 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.960 to not be fake nice, which Paul is not. I 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.160 think some people wouldn't even call him polite. He's empathetic 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.400 and understanding and listening, which are all really important characteristic 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.160 ristics in the workplace. Right, people can see right through 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:28.520 fake politeness, and sometimes politeness is actually passive aggression, especially 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.520 when you're you're using it just to put a nice 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:35.159 bow on something crappy that you're saying to somebody. Nobody 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.600 likes that. Nope, before we go, I'd like to introduce 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:45.040 half bake takes. Half fake takes. Half bag takes are 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.840 issues that we care about very deeply, but almost nobody 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.760 else does. Therefore we would never write an article about them. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.400 But we're going to use this podcast for a platform. 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.760 Here's my half bag take for the day. It's called 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.080 pizza is a human right. Okay, Um, you can't get 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:05.600 behind that already. It's customary and offices to order in 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.479 pizza as a way to appease people who don't want 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.119 to be sitting through a long lunch meeting, or to 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:13.639 reward people for working late or working on the weekends 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:15.600 or something like that. Pizza in the office is supposed 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.920 to be this great treat, right, but what always happens 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.400 is the pizza gets piled up in a conference room, 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:26.040 and everybody who sees the people eating the pizza salivates, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.719 and there isn't enough pizza for everyone. My philosophy is, 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:34.119