1
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,680
Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I

2
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:28,680
Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff to

3
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,200
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm

4
00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,760
Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and I want a hippopotamus for Christmas. Yeah.

5
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,160
Speaker 1: Well we we kicked off with a little Christmas music.

6
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:39,479
Speaker 1: They're at the top, and I know some of you

7
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 1: are probably thinking, what is we just barely started December? You, Robert,

8
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,640
Speaker 1: and you warned me that you were going to lean

9
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: into the holidays this year, and you have been leaning. Well,

10
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 1: I am. But for those of you who are who

11
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 1: are saying, well, this is too soon for Christmas episode,

12
00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,800
Speaker 1: I'll let me say that, since this episode is about

13
00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,520
Speaker 1: Christmas music, you should be thankful that I didn't know.

14
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: We did not unleash this in mid October, because that

15
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,400
Speaker 1: is when some Christmas music begins to creep into various

16
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,120
Speaker 1: retail stores. Oh yeah, they start pushing it earlier and earlier.

17
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 1: It's creepy. So this is I think this is a

18
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,839
Speaker 1: suitably early time to tackle this topic, but not so

19
00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,880
Speaker 1: early that it annoys us the creators of the show,

20
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 1: hopefully just annoys the listeners. Yeah. So, uh, let's talk

21
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,160
Speaker 1: a little bit before we get into the you know,

22
00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,720
Speaker 1: more serious consideration of the topic, just how we relate

23
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,440
Speaker 1: to holiday music. For my money, I do really enjoy

24
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: singing a number of holiday carols around the holidays. Uh.

25
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 1: I grew up singing in you know a number of

26
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,400
Speaker 1: these and in church or in a boys chorus, and

27
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:46,720
Speaker 1: uh I always play them in band as well or

28
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,840
Speaker 1: in piano recitals, so they strike a nostalgic chord and

29
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 1: they can just be fun to belt out, especially if

30
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 1: you're belting it out with other people. I especially always

31
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 1: dug God Rescue Mary Gentleman that has a nice cadence

32
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,560
Speaker 1: to it. Bonus points for being the rare Christmas song

33
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,800
Speaker 1: that mentioned Satan, very good Good King Wins is lost,

34
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,240
Speaker 1: very similar song that I also always really dug. And

35
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,200
Speaker 1: then when it comes to you know, more like recent

36
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 1: I guess modern holiday music. I'm generally down for anything

37
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,960
Speaker 1: that Leon Redbone ever saying that was holiday themed and

38
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,920
Speaker 1: uh and I'll tolerate some of the more electronic and

39
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,360
Speaker 1: new a g Mannheim steamroll Er stuff, though some of

40
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: that can be a little great in in my opinion.

41
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: At least it's electronic, right, And uh and I always

42
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 1: Dug Jackson Brown's The Rebel Jesus. That's a nice that's

43
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,320
Speaker 1: a nice Christmas song. I believe it's a nice retort

44
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 1: to American Christmas materialism. Wait, I just realized you're so.

45
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 1: You're a big fan of God Resty Mary Gentleman and

46
00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 1: Good King Winceslas and those are both like very staccato songs.

47
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 1: They're very similar. In fact, I once did a piano

48
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,960
Speaker 1: recital where I had to play one of them, and

49
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,520
Speaker 1: I lost my way and started playing the other one.

50
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 1: It is a disaster, as I guess you know a

51
00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,519
Speaker 1: lot of children's piano recitals should be. Uh, but yeah,

52
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 1: they're very similar. How about you, Joe, what are your

53
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: your likes and dislikes? Oh well, I definitely have an

54
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,360
Speaker 1: answer for what is the absolute worst Christmas song? And

55
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 1: it is Wonderful Christmas Time by Paul McCartney, which always

56
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,920
Speaker 1: sounds to me like I cannot believe people play this

57
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 1: on purpose. It sounds like the mantra of a person

58
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 1: on the verge of a complete nervous breakdown, and it's

59
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,959
Speaker 1: like the soundtrack of of a psychotic episode. It is horrible,

60
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, simply having Wonderful Christmas Time and if it

61
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,800
Speaker 1: comes on in a store, I will leave the store.

62
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 1: I generally feel the same way about jingle Bells, even

63
00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,960
Speaker 1: though that's a standard, that's a classic. A lot of

64
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 1: people probably feel nostalgic about it, but I find that

65
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 1: it has just a it's relentless, you know, Dun Dun dune, Dun, Dun, dune,

66
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 1: Dun Dun, Dun, dune dune, and and you just, yeah,

67
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 1: I just kind of recoil from it. It's like the

68
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: Imperial March of Christmas. It's like Santa Claus shows up

69
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 1: like Darth eight or getting out of the ship in plays.

70
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, Now I do have to confess that

71
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,520
Speaker 1: I actually kind of like, do they know it's Christmas?

72
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 1: The Supergroup performance, Okay, yeah, I don't know. It's it's

73
00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: pretty dumb, but it's dumb, but it's I don't know,

74
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,239
Speaker 1: it feels it makes me feel a little warm inside

75
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,359
Speaker 1: if I hear it once every now and then, I

76
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: will say. One of the funniest Christmas songs and by

77
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 1: this uh yeah, by this measure, maybe the best ever

78
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 1: is one called Christmas Time by the Smashing Pumpkins, which

79
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: I don't think you'd heard before I played played it

80
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,159
Speaker 1: for me yesterday and uh, and I have to admit

81
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 1: I did. I did not hate it at all. It

82
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,440
Speaker 1: seemed perfectly fine. It's Billy Corgan passionately gushing about presents

83
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,600
Speaker 1: and toys. Also, while I was looking this song up,

84
00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 1: I found in November interview with USA Today in which

85
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,160
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan announces his intention to create an entire Smashing

86
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 1: Pumpkins Christmas album. I don't know if it's ever going

87
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 1: to happen, but he said it would happen, and he

88
00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,040
Speaker 1: also said it would not be hard rock. It would

89
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 1: be like it would be something that you could gather

90
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 1: around the Christmas tree with your family and listen to.

91
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,520
Speaker 1: But in contemplating this episode, I was just considering the

92
00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,239
Speaker 1: way that, at least in the United States, of course,

93
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 1: Christmas music in particular strikes in these timed waves of

94
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,679
Speaker 1: attack in public places, especially in stores, malls, other spaces

95
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 1: that are trying to encourage commerce. And while it is

96
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 1: normal for stores and public places to play music all

97
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,599
Speaker 1: year around, something does feel very special and different about

98
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,920
Speaker 1: the onslaught of Christmas music in public spaces. It feels

99
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 1: potentially uh coercive and psychologically salient in ways that the

100
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 1: other uses of just like normal pop music or whatever

101
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,919
Speaker 1: don't right, and it's and on one hand, it is

102
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,919
Speaker 1: kind of a cliche to be irritated by excessive holiday music,

103
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,359
Speaker 1: and perhaps we don't think about it too deeply because

104
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,479
Speaker 1: we just we we can all relate, I think, on

105
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 1: some level to this. But this episode is going to

106
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,159
Speaker 1: dig a little deeper and discuss why this might be

107
00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 1: why holiday music can irritate us so and in doing so,

108
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, we'll look to both the pros the strengths

109
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 1: of holiday music, like why we in many cases love

110
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,800
Speaker 1: holiday music, but then also the reverse of that, the

111
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, the dark submerged part of that iceberg, why

112
00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,920
Speaker 1: the Christmas music can drive us mad? All the noise, noise, noise?

113
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,040
Speaker 1: What is it the Grin says about Christmas carols? Well,

114
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,360
Speaker 1: he says a lot. There's a whole Sectionary complains, Yeah,

115
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 1: about the noise of of the who's and the whoville

116
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 1: celebrating the holiday. And certainly that's the thing, right, Like,

117
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:51,599
Speaker 1: the more you feel irritated by Christmas music, holiday music,

118
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 1: you feel like you're being driven to grinch them. You're

119
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,920
Speaker 1: you're being you're you're turning into a Scrooge right right

120
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,360
Speaker 1: there in the moment, and that's that's not a pleasant feeling.

121
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be Scrooge, or you know, at least

122
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 1: Scrooge as he's depicted for the vast majority of the story. Likewise,

123
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 1: with the Grunch, nobody wants to be that individual. But

124
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: sometimes you can feel driven towards the edge of it.

125
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,440
Speaker 1: You know. One thing that I think is interesting is

126
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 1: the very fact and this is not at all unique

127
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 1: to you know, modern Christmas music. Uh, the idea that

128
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,200
Speaker 1: there are types of music genres associated with particular feasts

129
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 1: or holidays, and I think it's part of a broader

130
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 1: trend where where within each culture, certain holidays almost become

131
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 1: like a culture. Within the culture, they're like another country

132
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 1: that you can go to that has its own customs,

133
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,440
Speaker 1: has its own foods, has its own music, has its

134
00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,320
Speaker 1: own uh language, has its own like media and movies

135
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 1: and all that kind of thing. Well, this brings me

136
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,080
Speaker 1: back to our past episodes on the Winter People talking

137
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 1: about to what degree in general, but then also in

138
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 1: the traditions of certain Pacific Northwest Native people's, to what

139
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 1: extent we become different people during the time of winter,

140
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 1: during the time of the feast, etcetera. All right, particularly

141
00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 1: I believe it's among like the Quakwa Kawuk people. Yeah yeah,

142
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,239
Speaker 1: And of course they had like, you know, elaborate rituals

143
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: about these alterations to their identities and their society as

144
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,120
Speaker 1: as the winter months would come on. But in a way,

145
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: I think part of the case we were making is

146
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 1: that they're there are echoes of that kind of thing

147
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,560
Speaker 1: in all kinds of cultures and even in you know,

148
00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 1: mass consumer culture in the United States or something that

149
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,000
Speaker 1: you sort of enter into a different country when the

150
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,560
Speaker 1: when the winter months come on. It also seems to

151
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,839
Speaker 1: me that it's not a coincidence that our most important

152
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,120
Speaker 1: feast days are in the dark of winter. The changes

153
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: in the weather itself like shape like sort of drive

154
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 1: us toward the family gathering feasting kind of behaviors and

155
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,440
Speaker 1: all that. And indeed at those feasts we break into

156
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 1: song sometimes, uh yeah, or sometimes put on songs or

157
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,959
Speaker 1: you know, if you really actually I don't know why

158
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 1: I didn't think of this earlier for an excellent psychological experiment. Uh,

159
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 1: just in the middle of summer sometime or like maybe

160
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,840
Speaker 1: May or June, go to a place that has a

161
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 1: jukebox that you can program songs in and get Christmas

162
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 1: music going and see how people react an informal experiment,

163
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 1: people don't take kindly to it at all. They're like,

164
00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,000
Speaker 1: we are not those people right now? How dare you write? Alright,

165
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:34,200
Speaker 1: So let's begin with the with the broader picture of music.

166
00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 1: Let's let's state the obvious, and that is that music

167
00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,439
Speaker 1: is awesome. Music is an integral part of the human experience.

168
00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,680
Speaker 1: Every culture has its music, every majority, every minority, every institution,

169
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:52,320
Speaker 1: every subgroup, every tribe, every holiday. Obviously, you know, individual

170
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,000
Speaker 1: and group A may not care for the music and

171
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,880
Speaker 1: group B. But there are no hard fast rules here either.

172
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,040
Speaker 1: Especially today, we're in this this time really of e

173
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,319
Speaker 1: music exposure where between you know, whatever your favorite music

174
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,960
Speaker 1: streaming website is, between YouTube and and so forth, we

175
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 1: have exposure to so many different cultural traditions of music,

176
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:19,080
Speaker 1: so many different genres and subgenres. Uh. There's just absolutely

177
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 1: so much of it, uh, And so our tastes are

178
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,160
Speaker 1: going to vary. And I think if you look to

179
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 1: your own musical taste, you like like like like like us,

180
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,439
Speaker 1: you'll find that, you know, probably there's some seemingly contradictory

181
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: or at least less obvious connections, you know, like different

182
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 1: genres that maybe don't seem like they should set on

183
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 1: the same shelf with each other, and yet here they

184
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 1: are balancing around your head. Oh sure, I mean I

185
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,440
Speaker 1: very much identify with this. I I'm not a one

186
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:53,320
Speaker 1: genre guy. Yeah. Uh. And of course music is also powerful. Uh. Really,

187
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,960
Speaker 1: music is in many ways a drug. It is a

188
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,960
Speaker 1: It is something that many of us will use to

189
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:04,680
Speaker 1: regulate our our moods, our energy levels. Uh. It changes

190
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 1: the expression of who we are. I would say it's

191
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,680
Speaker 1: also a performance drug for a lot of people. Yeah.

192
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,720
Speaker 1: We we use it to self regulate mood purely for

193
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,320
Speaker 1: enjoyment and emotional stability, but we also use it to

194
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 1: motivate certain behaviors. I mean, I think music is incredibly

195
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,120
Speaker 1: powerful for self conditioning if you want to, uh basically

196
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 1: perform operant conditioning on yourself. Uh. There are certain types

197
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,319
Speaker 1: of music that you should practice putting on when you're

198
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,839
Speaker 1: being productive, and then you listen to that same music

199
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 1: again when you're trying to be productive other times. I

200
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 1: think it's incredibly effective, absolutely, and uh, and certainly, music

201
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: can at times feel to feel like it, it overpowers us.

202
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,640
Speaker 1: I often come back to the Peter Gabriel song The

203
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,640
Speaker 1: Rhythm of the Heat, one of my favorite Gabriel tracks

204
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 1: in general, in English or German German versions great to um,

205
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 1: but the lyrics go, the rhythm is below me, the

206
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 1: rhythm of the heat. The rhythm is around me. The

207
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 1: rhythm rhythm has control. The rhythm is inside me. The

208
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 1: rhythm has my soul. And it's like the devil it is, yeah,

209
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. Gabriel's lyrics here allude to something

210
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,119
Speaker 1: Carl Jung said about tribal music that he was exposed

211
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,760
Speaker 1: to feeling as if it were possessing him and and

212
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 1: and making him anxious because he felt like he was

213
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,840
Speaker 1: losing control to it. I mean, I think it's no

214
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 1: coincidence that in certain social settings we often like to

215
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 1: listen to loud music, especially rhythm heavy music. Uh in

216
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,560
Speaker 1: the same kind of ways that people might consume alcohol

217
00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 1: at big parties and then listen to rhythm heavy music

218
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,240
Speaker 1: a big parties. It seems inhibition reducing sort of overcomes

219
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,560
Speaker 1: natural inhibitory behaviors, And I think, actually it's not it's

220
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,400
Speaker 1: not a coincidence that the same types of things are

221
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,199
Speaker 1: used in a coercive way, saying, interrogation settings where loud,

222
00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 1: repetitive music is used to break the will of who

223
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 1: are undergoing interrogation. Yeah, in the same way one might

224
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,320
Speaker 1: attempt to use a drug to break the will of

225
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,600
Speaker 1: an individual. Um, it's kind of like a you know,

226
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,320
Speaker 1: a light and a dark magic to music. And uh,

227
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 1: and we'll get into a little of that. But we

228
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,079
Speaker 1: also touched on here the communal aspect of music. Uh,

229
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,000
Speaker 1: there is something about music that is inherently communal. I mean,

230
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,560
Speaker 1: there's the private experience of music, certainly, but music has

231
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:31,000
Speaker 1: has long factored into our various rights and rituals and observances. Uh.

232
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,080
Speaker 1: And you see that, you see that just about everywhere. Uh,

233
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,320
Speaker 1: secularly as well. You look at the various uh you know,

234
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,920
Speaker 1: patriotic tunes and national anthems that are employed. But more

235
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: than that, just like dancing, a social behavior that that

236
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,120
Speaker 1: music by getting everybody in rhythm on the same beat,

237
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,000
Speaker 1: there's a natural social unifying effect to that. Yeah. Yeah,

238
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,120
Speaker 1: you're sinking up neurologically really now. Emotionally, music can push

239
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:05,880
Speaker 1: us in a variety of directions. Lovey eight, fear, melancholy, pride, nostalgia, community, individualism, relaxation, animation,

240
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,480
Speaker 1: and indeed, music has been shown to have a physiological

241
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 1: effect on us. It can mentally and physically stimulate us.

242
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,559
Speaker 1: And so the power of music has intrigued us for ages.

243
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 1: And there have been tons of tons of of of

244
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 1: of of theories have been put forth, with so many studies.

245
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,400
Speaker 1: Charles Darwin was famously stumped by music's power, writing the

246
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 1: following and the descent of Man quote with Man's song

247
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: is generally admitted to be the basis or origin of

248
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,680
Speaker 1: instrumental music. As neither the enjoyment or capacity of producing

249
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,760
Speaker 1: musical notes are faculties of the least direct use to

250
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,000
Speaker 1: Man in reference to his ordinary habits of life, they

251
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 1: must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he

252
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 1: has endowed. I think Darwin, uh, he might have been

253
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 1: calling the shots too early there saying that that we don't.

254
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 1: I think he's essentially saying, well, music sake is something

255
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,640
Speaker 1: that has no obvious survival benefit. Like it, you know,

256
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit into the things you need to do

257
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 1: to survive and reproduce. And that's why it's such a

258
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 1: such an enigma. Why we do it. I'm not sure

259
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 1: that we can rule out that it has like survival

260
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 1: and reproduction benefits. I think very likely does. Yeah, I

261
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 1: read a little more from this this uh, this section

262
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,200
Speaker 1: of the Descent of Manner. He does get into talking

263
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,800
Speaker 1: about birds and so forth, So it's perhaps maybe a

264
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 1: little more of a contemplation than that it might appear

265
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 1: with just this brief excerpt. But but but still, I

266
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 1: I appreciate him getting to the mystery of it. But

267
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,600
Speaker 1: I do also agree that music is such a part

268
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 1: of the human experience that I think it is, we

269
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 1: can't quite dismiss its role in in our survival. Yeah. Actually,

270
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 1: you know what I probably wasn't Yeah, I was probably

271
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,560
Speaker 1: not being fair to Darwin because I didn't see the

272
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 1: rest of the quote, Because in fact, it is quite

273
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 1: common in Darwin's writings for him to announce that something

274
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,640
Speaker 1: is mysterious and then go on to offer explanations for it.

275
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 1: So a great new of researchers looked at the impact

276
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: of music, and uh. One paper I was looking at

277
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 1: in particular as a two thousand thirteen paper titled the

278
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,040
Speaker 1: Psychological Functions of Music Listening by Schafer at All in

279
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 1: Frontiers and Psychology, and I found this paper to be

280
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,520
Speaker 1: really nice. Sums up a lot of findings concerning the

281
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 1: way we use music uh quote. Surveying the literature from

282
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 1: the past fifty years, we identified more than five hundred

283
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 1: purported functions from music. From this list, we assembled a

284
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 1: somewhat catholic list of one hundred and twenty nine non

285
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 1: redundant musical functions. We then tested the verse similitude of

286
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: these uh positive functions by collecting survey responses from a

287
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 1: comparatively large sample pc A reveal just three distinct dimensions.

288
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 1: People listen to music to achieve self awareness, social related

289
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: nous and arousal, and mood regulation. We propose calling these

290
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 1: the big three of music listening. Okay, so if I'm

291
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 1: understanding that right, it's to reflect on yourself, health, to

292
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 1: fit in with others, or to achieve a particular mental

293
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,639
Speaker 1: or emotional state. I think that seems about right, and

294
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 1: that fits in very well with the ways that I've

295
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 1: primarily used music in my life. You like to reflect

296
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 1: on yourself. Think about the way people listen to sad

297
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: songs after a breakup or something. It's almost like the

298
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,760
Speaker 1: listening is engaging with some kind of information. Nextus that

299
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 1: gives you ways of thinking about your own situation. Uh.

300
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 1: And then of course to fit in with others, as

301
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 1: we've already talked about music and dancing being highly social

302
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,560
Speaker 1: activities that form connections between people, get you all in

303
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,879
Speaker 1: the same rhythm, which is a a socially encourage a

304
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,440
Speaker 1: social bonding. And then of course finally to regulate mood

305
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 1: or achieve certain mental states. And that can be everything

306
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,879
Speaker 1: from just wanting to feel good and listening to music

307
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 1: that makes you feel good to trying to encourage like

308
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 1: I was saying earlier, encourage productivity through operant conditioning on

309
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 1: yourself through productivity music. Yeah, and I think all of

310
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 1: all three of these two are worth keeping in mind

311
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 1: when it comes to both seasonal celebration music and communal

312
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 1: religious music, which of course a lot of holiday music is.

313
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 1: So how would those three things uh fit with like

314
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,199
Speaker 1: seasonal holiday music. Well, let's see, so um self awareness,

315
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 1: you know again, when when were the environment changes, the

316
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,119
Speaker 1: self may change a little bit. We're we're reflecting on

317
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 1: who we are during this time of you know, in

318
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 1: theory fewer resources and ort of less sunlight, etcetera. Perhaps

319
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,040
Speaker 1: engaging in exercise of exercises of gratitude as well, to

320
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,919
Speaker 1: come back to what we discussed previously. Also, you know,

321
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: some a number of holiday songs do touch on the

322
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 1: idea of giving gifts to those who are less fortunate.

323
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 1: Not every song certainly, but but you see that employed. Um,

324
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 1: the Jackson Good sure does. Uh. The Jackson Brown song,

325
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: the Rebel Jesus certainly has that vibe to it. Like

326
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 1: this kind of like taking down materialism at Christmas a

327
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 1: notch and saying like this is this is what the

328
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,919
Speaker 1: season is supposed to be about. Whether you do this

329
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,960
Speaker 1: or not, it is about a Bolshevik revolution. Social relatedness

330
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 1: comes back to the community of Christmas, this country of Christmas,

331
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 1: like you said earlier. And then arousal and mood regulation. Uh,

332
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 1: we see that employed as well, sometimes nefariously, as we'll

333
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 1: get into later on now. In this meta paper that

334
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 1: I was talking about, they point to a number of

335
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,959
Speaker 1: theories as well. And there are a lot of theories

336
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 1: about music and what it is and what it does.

337
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: And you know, ultimately one of those situations where you

338
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: can probably choose several of them and feel pretty safe

339
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 1: about adhering to them. And one of the theories they

340
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: cover is that of Ellen Disen Yanki from two thousand

341
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 1: nine and um Disiaki argues that humans use music to

342
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,719
Speaker 1: cope with anxiety concerning mortality. They point they point out

343
00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 1: that music induced chills produced reduced activity in brain structure

344
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: is associated with anxiety, and they they also point to

345
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: the idea discussed by several scholars that music plays a

346
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: key role in transcendence, taking us out of ourselves and

347
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 1: bringing us into a flow state. Uh In certainly we

348
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: see if we're talking about work music, you know, what

349
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 1: what sort of music do you put onto work and

350
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: to get into a flow state? But I think also

351
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,479
Speaker 1: that's comparable to holiday music as well, you know, like

352
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 1: transcending your personal identity and getting in the headspace of

353
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: the season whatever that particularly means to you in a

354
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 1: secular or religious standpoint. Yeah, absolutely so, first of all,

355
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: thinking about this idea of Desana Yaki's uh that that

356
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 1: music maybe primarily for the purpose of avoiding thoughts about mortality,

357
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 1: it would seem that that sort of is a particular

358
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: instance that would fit into the broader umbrella of terror management. Essentially,

359
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 1: the short version, I'm probably not doing it quite justice

360
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: this way, but the short version is that human culture

361
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 1: is a result of attempts to avoid thinking about death,

362
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 1: and that humans have culture because we are uniquely aware

363
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: of the fact that we one day will die, and

364
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 1: in order to not think about the fact that we

365
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: one day will die, we come up with all of

366
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: these elaborate things like art and religion and stuff like that,

367
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 1: all of which exists too in one way or another,

368
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 1: mitigate the knowledge of our own mortality. Yes, yeah, and

369
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a it's a very thought provoking theory.

370
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: I believe there's an older episode of Stuff to Lay

371
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: your Mind where Julie and I discussed it a bit.

372
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 1: But it's one of those topics we could easily revisit

373
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 1: because it's again it's not gospel, but it is. Sure,

374
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 1: it's just a proposed explanation, right, but it's one that

375
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, when you start applying it to things in

376
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: your life and in the world, it seems to hold weight. Well.

377
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,919
Speaker 1: I mean, when you generalize it more and make it

378
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: not just about mortality but anxiety that the ore a

379
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: lot of the positive activities in which we engage do

380
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: seem to have almost across the board, a power to

381
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: quell anxiety, especially sort of uh, static ruminant anxiety of

382
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: the kind that you get when you, you know, just

383
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: sit there and let your default mode network take over

384
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: and you start to have negative cyclical thoughts about yourself

385
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: and your future. And you know, uh, and and so

386
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: and for that reason. I mean, it's everything from psychedelic

387
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: drugs to meditation, to music, to religious experiences to engagement

388
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: with art. All this stuff seems to serve the function.

389
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: What it all has in common is that it kind

390
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 1: of quells act that sort of activity and gets you

391
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: gets your mind occupied with other things. And of course

392
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: it's interesting to compare all of this to Western holiday traditions,

393
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: which you know, many commentators have pointed out, you know,

394
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: are there about the coming death of the world. They

395
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: are about the world growing cold, the crops dying, the

396
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: plants dying, and us having to navigate this perilous season

397
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: into the hope of an eventual spring. Yes, and it's

398
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: that spring. It's like, I think you're exactly right about that.

399
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: It's that springtime association that's so important. And like the uh,

400
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: the hypothesized proto religions of the fertility cycles, right, it's

401
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: that that it's all about reminding you that hey, winter

402
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: necessarily leads to spring, the withering of the world necessarily

403
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: leads to blooming again, and that death necessarily leads to

404
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: the life everlasting. Absolutely. All right, on that note, we're

405
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: going to take our first break, but when we come back,

406
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about the holiday brain. All Right,

407
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: we're back. So I wanted to touch on a particular

408
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: Danish study that came out in the British Medical journal

409
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: back End that try to identify the quote Christmas network

410
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: in the brain with the fMRI. I. Now, I do

411
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: want to stress that this was a very lighthearted study

412
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: with a very small sample group of twenty test subjects

413
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: divided into a Christmas group in a non Christmas group. Okay,

414
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: so you wouldn't read too much into it. Yeah, yeah,

415
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: don't read too much into it. But but but here's

416
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: what they found when they when they exposed individuals to

417
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: Christmas stimuli. And I think we can we can take

418
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: something away from from some of these They said there

419
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: were five areas where the Christmas group responded to Christmas images.

420
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: So we're talking about images, not we're talking about visual stimuli,

421
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: not auditory stimuli here. But they responded with a higher

422
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: activation than the non Christmas group. This would be the

423
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: left primary motor and pre motor cortex, the right inferior

424
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: and superior parietal lobule, and the bilateral primary somatosensory cortex.

425
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: So these areas have been associated with spirituality, with semantic senses,

426
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: with the recognition of facial emotion, and so they say,

427
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: for example, the left and right parietal lobules have been

428
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: linked to self transcendence, the personal predisposition to spirituality, and

429
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: this is key. The frontal promoter or cortex is important

430
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: for experiencing emotions shared with others by mirroring or copying

431
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: their body states. And I think that that is we're

432
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: thinking about. We do have to think about of a

433
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: holiday as being a social customer communal custom which I

434
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: realize can be easy to miss given how materialistic and

435
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: media driven the holidays have become, and how a lot

436
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: of those experiences are not communal. I just had a

437
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: thought that didn't occur to me before. I wish I

438
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: had thought of this before the episode. I wonder if

439
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: there are any examples where a I don't know where

440
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: this would be, but I'm just imagining maybe there was

441
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: some Soviet state that tried this or something, uh like,

442
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: to do away with holiday is completely like, could you

443
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: have a culture or society without any seasonal celebrations or holidays?

444
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: And how would that change the people who went through it?

445
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: You're talking about a war on Christmas? Um? Well, I mean, yeah,

446
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: it's true that they've almost won and nobody celebrates Christmas anymore.

447
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: Uh well, you know that's certainly we can look to

448
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: examples of the suppression of religious practices and in various cultures.

449
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: But I wonder if whenever that's done, it's replaced with

450
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: other kinds of things that could serve for seasonal social bonding,

451
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: if other holidays take the take their place, or can

452
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: you just get rid of holidays? That this might be

453
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: interesting to come back to in an episode. We could

454
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: do an episode on the War on Christmas. By the way,

455
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's clear we're joking, but that

456
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: idea is the most bs thing in the entire world.

457
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: I cannot believe people still talk about this. Well. Um

458
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: to come back to the communal aspects though, of of

459
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: of Christmas stimuli, holiday stimuli, and holiday music, I I

460
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: think I think it does make sense, especially when I

461
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: think to when holiday music is actually pleasing to me.

462
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: So it's pleasing to me during say a family setting

463
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: and one in which I have some degree of control

464
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: over the music, a church or caroling setting in which

465
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: there is a communal and or faith based experience to

466
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: be had with the music. And of course personal music

467
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: listening time in which I say, I I just suddenly

468
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: get a wild hair to play that Jackson Brown song

469
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: to you know, sort of is a critique of what's

470
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: going on around me. Or you just queue up a

471
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: playlist with like a hundred sequential instances of Christmas time

472
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: by the Smashing Pumpkin. Yeah, maybe that, But but when

473
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: does it not please me when it is forced on me,

474
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: especially in a retail setting, a public transportation setting, advertising,

475
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: or some other environment that is not communal, celebratory or transcendent. Yeah. Absolutely,

476
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: And I think, uh, I mean just to acknowledge what

477
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: we we mentioned him earlier, but to acknowledge again the

478
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: idea of like CIA interrogation techniques or not just c

479
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: i A, I mean general uh coercive interrogation techniques and

480
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: and and the the attempt to sort of torture and

481
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: break detainees by subjecting them to loud, repetitive music. I

482
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: don't want to go overboard and claim that like in

483
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: store Christmas music institutes torture. I mean, obviously these are

484
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: incredibly different things. Uh they're extremely important differences, but it

485
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: is worth exploring for a moment how music has been

486
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: used in psychologically coercive ways. One of the ways I've

487
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: read about music being psychologically coercive is that when the

488
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: United States government has subjected detainees under interrogation to loud

489
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: music day and night in order to sort of break

490
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: them down and get them to give in to interrogation.

491
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: I think one thing that's often emphasized is playing music

492
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: that is culturally unfamiliar to the detainees, so like playing

493
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: especially genres that they would not have heard much of before.

494
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: I was reading a piece in Box about music as

495
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: torture that pointed this out that like, um, they don't

496
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: tend to play at the detainees like American pop music,

497
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: which filters out more to uh, to the home cultures

498
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: that the detainees come from. They're more likely to play

499
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: unfamiliar American genres like metal and country and wrap that

500
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: these people have been less likely to encounter before. And

501
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 1: it's that the combination of like the loud, repetitive subjection

502
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: to the sounds and their total cultural unfamiliarity that seems

503
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: to make them especially potent in breaking down the will.

504
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: But when it comes to holiday music, no, certainly, and

505
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: this is something that does come up in critiques of

506
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: the use of holiday music and retail settings. There are

507
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: individuals who, of course do not or you know, for

508
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 1: whom these are foreign songs, for whom these are songs

509
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: that are not a part of their, uh, the traditional culture.

510
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: But for a lot of people, certainly for what is

511
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: probably the core audience, the target audience you're targeting, sort

512
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: of like the basic American holiday shopper, who would presumably

513
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: be familiar with jingle bells and UH and so forth

514
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: and have some sort of nostalgic reaction to it. Yeah,

515
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: I think you're right about that, But I think there's

516
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: another element that's, like, whether or not these songs are

517
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: culturally familiar to you, they music has an almost unique

518
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: power to uh, to be psychologically invasive in ways that

519
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: you don't really have control over. I mean, I guess

520
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: you could literally plug your ears with wax or something.

521
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: But like generally, if music is playing, it's getting in

522
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: and it's working on your brain. And it's not like

523
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: say a visual advertisement that you can look away from.

524
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: The music is playing in your physical space. It has

525
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: a sensory pervasiveness and unavoidable nous and you can't prevent

526
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: it from working on you. The rhythm has my soul.

527
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: So as as we've been touching on here, like, there's

528
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: an obvious reason that stores play holiday music, and the reason,

529
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: of course, it's the same reason that a retail environment

530
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: does anything, you know, the reason they employ any kind

531
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: of sensory change, and that is to encourage more sales.

532
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: And studies have shown that holiday music can encourage a

533
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: more festive mood in shoppers. Of course, a big part

534
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: of our modern holiday model is the purchase, giving, and

535
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: receipt of gifts. You know, this is the materialistic model

536
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: of the holidays, and we all know this. Storefront Santa's

537
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: and holiday window displays do produce results, and that is

538
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: why stores continue to utilize them. However, has pointed out

539
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: in the Robert Clara article for ad Week, how retailers

540
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 1: can keep Christmas music from driving shoppers crazy. More and

541
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: more savvy stores have had to wake up to the

542
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: fact that there's there's there's no one path on all

543
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: of this. You have to know your product, you have

544
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: to know your customers, and then you have to tweak

545
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: your approach. So the music may bring some people in,

546
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 1: but it's going to turn other people off, and you

547
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: have to, um, you have to pivot based on that.

548
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: So the article points to a pair of polls from

549
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: the time period that showed that holiday music was only

550
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: hotly anticipated by Americans polled with disliking it. Another poll

551
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: reported that twenty three percent of the people polled dreaded

552
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: holiday music, while thirty six percent would leave a store

553
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: sooner if it was present. Well, this is what they say. Now,

554
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: can we trust people's reporting of their feelings on poles

555
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: to accurately be reflected in their behavior. Well, you know

556
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: it's with with poles in and you have to take

557
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: them with a certain grain of of you know, of salt,

558
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: of course, as always. But Clara writes that the experts

559
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: have chimed in and advised care in choosing a holiday playlist,

560
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: and they have they have some key suggestions. First of all,

561
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 1: no annoying novelty songs like Grandma got run over by

562
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: a reindeer that one has pointed out specifically as something

563
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: to be avoided. I remember my younger years in Tennessee

564
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: there was a certain classic rock radio station that I

565
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: listened to as a boy, and they got a bug

566
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: one year where they just really got into this song

567
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: called Christmas Balls. That was It's like, I don't know

568
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: who sings it. It's a novelty comedy song. It goes

569
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: Christmas Balls, Christmas Balls. I've got great big Christmas balls.

570
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: I think it's about it is. I mean, you get

571
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: the joke. I don't know why. I was trying to

572
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: tell you what. I think it's about, like ornaments, but

573
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: I guess, uh. But yeah, so they're they're saying, don't

574
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: do that, don't play Christmas Balls, don't play Grandma got

575
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: run over by a reindeer. What about like I want

576
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: a Hippopotamus for Christmas? Does that fit in with this? Um?

577
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: They don't specifically mention that song, but certainly we've discussed

578
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: before how music music that is sung by children, musical

579
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: recording song by children are exactly the sort of recordings

580
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: that can hit a a negative chord with with listeners. Likewise,

581
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: I think things where chipmunks are singing are probably worth avoiding.

582
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: But but then on top of this, so you know,

583
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: one thing is like trying to steer away from songs

584
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: that are inherit crently annoying. But also, don't do a

585
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: one holiday mix just because it is December or even November. Like,

586
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: don't do one holiday music. Make sure that there are

587
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: some non holiday songs in the mix, and then also

588
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: switch it up to mesh with different demos. They're coming

589
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: into the story at different times of the day, like

590
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: maybe your your clientele at ten am in a grocery

591
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: store might be rather different than the say, the five

592
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: PM crowd, and therefore it might pay off to take

593
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: that into account when choosing your music. I think that's

594
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: a very good point. One thing I would say is

595
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: that it's probably got to be difficult to study Christmas

596
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: music overall, uh, just because Christmas music accounts for such

597
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: a different range of things. I mean, all that's required

598
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: for it to be Christmas music is that it makes

599
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: thematic references to Christmas in like the lyrics or something,

600
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: or even that it's an instrumental version of a known

601
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: Christmas song. But like, there's just hugely different stuff that

602
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: stores could play They could play traditional Christmas carols sung

603
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: by a choir, or they could play Smashing Pumpkins Christmas

604
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 1: time has come, they can play one of those Amy

605
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: Grant Christmas albums, or you know, it's like wildly different

606
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: sonic profiles in this music. And I would expect, of

607
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: course that that within that cohort of Christmas music, you

608
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: would get some extremely different effects just based on the

609
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: oral qualities of the music. Oh. Absolutely, there's so much

610
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: to choose from. Um you know, for instance, at times

611
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: when I want to actually put on a Christmas playlist,

612
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: I'll inevitably go to either um Dr rubber Funks funky

613
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: Christmas mixes He's an English DJ that that puts out

614
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: some fabulous funk mixes, or some FM. My my favorite

615
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: internet radio station, has a number of different Christmas channels,

616
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: some of which play a lot of like quirky even

617
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: novelty songs and you'll listen to you'll listen to that

618
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: for a bit and you know, they'll play stuff you've

619
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: never heard before. So there is Yeah, I think it

620
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: is important to know there there's a lot of Christmas

621
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: music out there. It doesn't have to just be that

622
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: one being Crosby song. But anyway, I just wanted to

623
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: point out that I'm sure that that makes it difficult

624
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: to get consistent results on studies about the effects of

625
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: Christmas music. To other pointers that they made in this article,

626
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: don't turn it up too loud. I think that's pretty obvious.

627
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: And then don't play any particular song too much, even

628
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: if it is a huge pop hit or a standard

629
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: um and again, don't play on holiday music. Whatever the

630
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: evidence to support this or not. In terms of encouraging

631
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: consumer behavior, I would say it was like, it's a

632
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: moral imperative. You should follow this advice. Do not play

633
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: Christmas music absolutely. Okay, we're gonna take one quick ad break,

634
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: but we'll be right back. Thank thank alright, we're back now.

635
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: At this point, I want to get to something that

636
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: made the rounds last holiday season and is making the

637
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: rounds yet again this year in uh and that is

638
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist Linda Blair spoke about this very topic with

639
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: Sky News in and then was subsequently you know, quoted

640
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: in various articles touching on this uh and and she

641
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: said that especially for folks who have to work amid

642
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: holiday music, you know, individuals working in a retail setting

643
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: during the holidays, for example, for them, this exposure can

644
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: become so unpleasant that they have to exert an increasing

645
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: amount of mental energy to block it all out. Basically,

646
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: the idea here is it induces cognitive fatigue. Cheery tunes

647
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: especially can drain workers and shoppers as well. I would

648
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: say there might be something to this. Again, not to

649
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: draw too strong a comparison to actual torture techniques, because again,

650
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: extremely different things going on here, but to look at

651
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: a at least mild thread of continuity. Another thing that

652
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: is often done to detainees being exposed to this kind

653
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: of like sonic torture, is excessively cheery music, such as

654
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: the Barney song that I Love You You Love Me

655
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: song and the like. Commercial jingles that are extremely cheery,

656
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: like the MEO Mix theme song uh and I think

657
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: It's It's sort of hypothesized that this also has some

658
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: kind of will breaking power that it like It's so

659
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: it ultimately becomes increasingly uh, cognitively demanding to resist the

660
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: power of humiliation that comes on with listening to really

661
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: cheery music over and over. Does that make sense? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, Again,

662
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: very different settings torture and UH and and retail setting.

663
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 1: But still I think they both both examples illustrate UH

664
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: the power of music now and another piece that I

665
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: ran across up Melody Wilding writing for inc dot com

666
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: an article title of neurosciences holiday music is mentally draining.

667
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: She points out that there's a there's a U shaped

668
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: relationship between how often we hear a song and how

669
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: much we like it, what's known as the near exposure effect. Yeah,

670
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: I was reading about the mirror exposure effect and this

671
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: is interesting. The core finding of the mere exposure effect

672
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: is that humans have a tendency to like a stimulus

673
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: more after they've been initially exposed to it, and then

674
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: continue liking it more the more they're exposed to it

675
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: as familiarity increases. And this does of course apply to songs,

676
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: but it also applies to all kinds of other stimuli visual, auditory, conceptual, linguistic. UH.

677
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: This effect has been studied for many decades. There was

678
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: one meta review I was looking at by Robert F.

679
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: Bornstein from nineteen eight nine called Exposure and Affect Overview

680
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: and meta Analysis of Research in Psychological Bulletin, and this

681
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: surveyed a couple of decades of published research and found

682
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: that the effect was very robust for many different kinds

683
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: of stimuli, and it looks like the mere exposure effect

684
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: is most pronounced on like brief initial exposure to things,

685
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: and then our our liking for things continues to increase

686
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: as we're exposed to them more and more, but with

687
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: the limit depending on the stimulus, of course, on average,

688
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 1: maybe somewhere around after ten to twenty exposures, the effect

689
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: loses power, so are our liking of the thing plateaus

690
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: and does not continue to increase. And then with some stimuli,

691
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: as you continue to be exposed to them more and

692
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: more after this period, you're liking of them might sharply

693
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 1: drop off. You actually like them less. And I think

694
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: this is the U shaped curve that the author there

695
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: is referring to. Okay, so that means there there is

696
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: always hope that whatever is a fad and is annoying

697
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: will go away, it will follow this curve into oblivion.

698
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: Well right, I mean, if something isn't still a fad

699
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: and other people are still enjoying it, but you've already

700
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: dubbed it annoying, you've probably just gone over the U

701
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: curve faster than other people and everybody else, or maybe

702
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 1: you had initially less tolerance for whatever it was. Anyway,

703
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: I mean sorry, what were you saying? Oh and specifically

704
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: talking about the meme whor the cat and the woman

705
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: yell at each other. I don't know that meme. Well,

706
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: get ready to ride the U on that one, I guess. Now.

707
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: An interesting question is why do we like things more

708
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: once we've already been exposed to them, And the primary

709
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: explanation I've come across is processing fluency, the amount of

710
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 1: energy required to mentally process a stimulus. Like the brain

711
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: is lazy and it wants to avoid work whenever possible,

712
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 1: So when a stimulus is familiar rather than new and unfamiliar,

713
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: the brain has to do less physical work in order

714
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: to perceive, understand, categorize, and react to the stimulus, and

715
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: the processing demand is reduced and made more fluent. And

716
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: this is where processing fluency comes from. This easing of

717
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: the mental burden feels good and emotionally manifest to us

718
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: as increased comfort and pleasure with the stimulus. So I

719
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: would kind of say that familiarity feels better than unfamiliarity

720
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: with a picture or a song or something, the same

721
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: way that playing a sport or a musical instrument that

722
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: you've already practiced and gotten good at, feels better than

723
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: playing a sport or a musical instrument or something that

724
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: you've not yet acquired any skill fluency with, and with

725
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: music especially. This is this is why we we hear

726
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: that that in the new song that we we instantly

727
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: dig and it's why we have to listen to it

728
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: like five times in a row, yes, and why later

729
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: on we'll come back to it and we'll we'll remark

730
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: just how how much more we're finding in the like

731
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: the musical architecture of the thing totally. Uh. In fact, though,

732
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: I just wanted to point out, if you've been listening

733
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: to the podcast for a while, some familiarity might be

734
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: lighting up in your brain, because processing fluency as a

735
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: concept was also a major factor in explaining the illusory

736
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: truth effect. Remember this was the pair of episodes we

737
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: did about the body of research showing that merely having

738
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: been exposed to a claim makes you more likely to

739
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: believe the claim is true, even if you should know better.

740
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: Uh So, in that case, familiarity with the statement factor

741
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 1: claim makes it easier for the brain to process the

742
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: same statement or claim when you hear it again later on.

743
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: And the acro effect of this for truth statements is

744
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: that we're more likely to rate them as true or

745
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: credible if we've heard them before or heard them a

746
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: lot of times before. And so I think the mirror

747
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: exposure effect could be considered kind of a cousin of

748
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: the illusory truth effect. It's the illusory liking effect. But

749
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: as we were saying, yeah, it appears for some stimuli,

750
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: including music, the effect doesn't last forever. You like a

751
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: song a lot more after you've already been exposed to

752
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: it once or twice, and you keep liking it more

753
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: and more the more you hear it. But at some point,

754
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 1: maybe around you know, who know, maybe ten or twenty

755
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: exposures or so, the pleasure plateaus. You stop liking it more,

756
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: and after that it's possible that you will like it

757
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: less and less the more you hear it. And I

758
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: think this very well could be the case, especially for

759
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: songs that recur year after year at a certain time

760
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: table throughout the year. Yeah, absolutely, I can. That matches

761
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: up well, I think with their experience with a lot

762
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: of holiday songs. Now, another criticism it often comes up

763
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: is that as one is bombarded with all this holiday music.

764
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: You know, it may of course aggravate other holiday seasonal

765
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: stresses that are going on already, stuff regarding say money, family, politics,

766
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: or other factors. And also, I've I've heard a voice that,

767
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, part of the holiday stresses is sometimes having

768
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: to shop, having to you know, take care of the

769
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, the checklist for the holidays, and holiday music

770
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: is kind of like this, this voice telling you that

771
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 1: you're not done yet, reminding you of all the work

772
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: you have to do. Uh and uh and yeah, I

773
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: can see where that can be an unwanted bombardment. Well,

774
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: it may be exactly part. I mean, so we listen

775
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: to holiday music around the time that we're trading gifts

776
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: with people. People listen to holiday music on Christmas Day

777
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: and their opening presents and stuff. So I mean, I

778
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: wonder if there's supposed to be a conditioned association between

779
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: the music and the gifts. They play it in the

780
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: store to get you thinking about the gifts. You might

781
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: not have thought about gifts while you were in there. Otherwise,

782
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: that seems like a pretty clear thing that could be

783
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: going on there. Again, I mean, I'm wondering if if

784
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: these stores have access to research that we don't have

785
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: access to, making the case really strongly that Christmas music, yes,

786
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: absolutely does make people buy more. I'm not sure based

787
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: on the publicly available research that the case is that

788
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: strong that Christmas music makes people spend more. Maybe there's

789
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: just a uh, maybe there's private research, or maybe they've

790
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: got secret you know, Christmas music labs where they've dug

791
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: up this research, or you know, maybe maybe it's not

792
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: even all that well informed. Maybe all this mayhem is

793
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: going on in our ears for nothing. Well, I mean,

794
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: I I have some of the sources that I was

795
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: looking at that they didn't speak of it as being

796
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: an accepted fact that that the Christmas stimuli can enhance purchases. Now,

797
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: one paper I was looking at him. Sorry, I don't

798
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: have the title one it off hand, but uh it um,

799
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: it was looking at what happens when you pair auditory

800
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: Christmas stimuli with smells of Christmas. Yes, I was looking

801
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: at some stuff like that too, and I think they

802
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: were finding that the smells on their own did weren't

803
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: as potent, weren't as commanding, which is interesting because you know,

804
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: our our sense of smell is very primal. It it

805
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: connects to with our brain and our memories in a

806
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: way that the other senses do not. Uh. And yet

807
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: they I believe they were finding that the Christmas smells

808
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: on their own were not as pervasive as smells combined

809
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: with sound. So I could certainly believe that. I mean,

810
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'd say maybe I'm being overly skeptical

811
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: about this. I just don't find myself fully convinced that

812
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: the onslaught of Christmas music is justified by by the research. Well,

813
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, I think a lot of you know,

814
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: coming back to that business article of talking about earlier,

815
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: like a lot of people are just doing it because

816
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: that's what you do. Clearly, Um, some are you know less,

817
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: you know, informed on exactly how you should calibrate it.

818
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: It's just it's Christmas time. You put up the Christmas

819
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: window display, you put out the Santa, and you just

820
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: play Christmas music NonStop and and and I think it

821
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: seems reasonable that a more nuanced approach is really in order.

822
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: Uh and uh. But but I don't think we're gonna

823
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: see it go away anytime soon. Okay, what is the

824
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: Christmas song that is going to make you least likely

825
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: to spend money in the store. Oh man, I mean

826
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: there there are so many, but uh, I mean we're

827
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: the Grandma got run over by reindeer is probably probably

828
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: a big one that would prevent me from from from

829
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: staying in the store like that one. That one's kind

830
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: of a walkout song for me. I will shop at

831
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: your competitor. Do Christmas Balls one more time? Yeah, I

832
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: don't think I've even heard Christmas Balls, but this already

833
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: sounds like a walkout tune for me as well. Well, Robert,

834
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: after we finish up in here, we're gonna listen to

835
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: Christmas Balls, all right, uh, if we must, all right,

836
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: So obviously we'd love to hear from everybody about this topic,

837
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: your experience with holiday music, your experience being subjected to

838
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: holiday music. And I think it's especially nice because I

839
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: know we have uh you know, we have a large,

840
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: you know, US based listenership, but we have international listeners

841
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: as well, and I feel like we could probably get

842
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: some unique feedback from those individuals. Uh, you know, what

843
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: is it? What is it like? Uh, you know, what

844
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: is the Christmas music bombardment like in your part of

845
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: the world, and what are the the equivalents in non

846
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: Christmas cultures. In the meantime, if you want to check

847
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head

848
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

849
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,919
Speaker 1: That's where you will find them. You can also find

850
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: us wherever you get podcasts. Just make sure you subscribe

851
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: because that way you'll you'll know that more episodes are

852
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: going to come to you, and there will be there'll

853
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: be at least one more Christmas episode. We have one

854
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: in store uh that I think we'll we'll delight you,

855
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: but also some non holiday stuff. We're gonna adhere to

856
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: the rules here of Christmas music in the store, uh.

857
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: And we're not going to bombard you with just one

858
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: holiday episodes. Gods be praised for that. Halloween is the only, um,

859
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: the only holiday that we really bombard you with. Also

860
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: check out Invention. That's our our other podcast. That one

861
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: deals with human techno history, and we have some we

862
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: do us some holiday episodes there as well, dealing with

863
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: various toys, uh. The the invention of various toys like

864
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: the yo yo, the frisbee, the hula hoop. Where did

865
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: these these classic toys come from? And why do they

866
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: resonate with us? So also I'll see horror. Fiction wise,

867
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: the second oil age is all out and you can

868
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: you can mainline that entire run. And uh, I think

869
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, I was trying to take anything else

870
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: I need to plug. No, I guess that's it. Um,

871
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: just merch pit, the merch pit, you know, the merch

872
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: pit does still exist. If you want some stuff to

873
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: blow your mind, merchandise shirts and so forth, maybe for

874
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: your holiday shopping, then you will find that there's a

875
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: tab for that. It's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Right,

876
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: it's our t public store if you want to google it. Yeah. Um, anyway, huge,

877
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

878
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

879
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

880
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can

881
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: email us at contact that Stuff to Blow your Mind

882
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production

883
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from

884
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

885
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.